When I saw the Colleen “apology” video, I immediately thought any adult will look at this and see an unhinged woman whose career is unraveling before her eyes. A child may actually see that video and feel bad for her, or not notice how crazy that “song” is. I find it odd she chose to make a song, it seems like another tactic to get children or her younger followers take pity on her. It was an automatic red flag, and aside from that I have second hand embarrassment from that video.
As a therapist, I really appreciated the discussion about how we have a skillset and a plan to be able listen to and support someone in trauma processing (and still keep ourselves protected) - because you're right, if you open up your DMs you have no control over whether you are exposed to information that could be heavy, triggering, or otherwise negatively affect you in some way.
Yes! We also have training in maintaining appropriate boundaries. When they mentioned adding a class to schools curriculum, I think that's the class we really need to have. It's the overarching theme of most clients problems that they never learned to identify communicate or maintain appropriate healthy boundaries.
I'm not a therapist, I'm 31 years old man, I've had good times and bad times in my life, if a friend wants to talk to me about how they're feeling at the time of their divorce, I can stand by them and give them advice. In the past I have. That's because, while I've never been married, I've been in relationships in the past, and can compartmentalize and give advice based on my personal experience. A 14-year-old boy falls in love with the first two-legged thing that walks in front of him and falls out of love with it just as quickly. They haven't been in a serious relationship, because they don't have the tools to do it (There are exceptions of people who have been together since they were in kindergarten, but these are extremely rare cases). Also the friends I helped in those situations didn't talk to me about their sex life. Those who think Colleen is innocent of all this make me laugh. She is not.
I never thought of that, now I feel bad about trauma dumping in the comments of videos (I've never done it with Christine or other creators in mind, but recently I've been relating to trauma with other people who have commented on the videos covering Colleen- half the time I'll get insecure about it and end up not commenting at all but the other half I'll try and give general info as to try and not trigger anyone).
Kiraburns, it's okay, I'm just a mental health advocate and I'm in therapy, but honestly the word trauma dumping gets over used in my opinion. You're not commenting in these places out of context, that's actual trauma dumping which often people who do so don't care about the other person's ability to take that info in. Part of healing abuse is it being witnessed, that's why telling your story matters. There's of course a time snd place. If it's in the comments of videos related to the issues or that remind you of the issue that's appreciate time and place. What Christine is saying is people sending her these messages while her content is about nail art. Telling your story also helps others feel less alone and able to heal and sometimes if needed bring justice to their abusers. Example is Adam who started speaking up again after seeing another victim stand up. Now he is taking legal action, now he is seeking therapy.
I think Ben and Cristine made a lot of great points here. Age gap, power imbalance, creators not having much time for real life relationships, creators being financially supported by their fans to some extent, etc. Personally, I don't think it's impossible for a creator to become friends with someone who used to be a fan, but I think friendship requires a different dynamic between the people involved than the dynamic that exists between a creator and a fan. I also think there needs to be a particular way that relationship begins that doesn't involve the fan being creepy/stalkery or the creator being creepy in a different way. For example, one of the creators I watch is Molly Burke, and the last time she went to guide dog training she met some people there who were fans of hers. But the key is that they were also there to attend the training, so neither side went out of their way to meet the other or even really knew it was going to happen. They had a legitimate reason for ending up in the same place at the same time, under circumstances where normal people very well might become friends if they met that way. That's the sort of opportunity where I can see potential for relationships developing and changing, perfectly naturally. At the same time, though, Molly has shared some information about having to deal with at least one fan forming an unhealthy attachment to her and trying to create a relationship she didn't want to have. That is just plain awful. I'm not saying that friendships can't start online or that purely online friendships can't happen. I've definitely had some. But I do think it's easier for people within fan communities to make friends with each other than it is for fans to make friends with the creator and vice versa. Exactly because of power imbalance and money stuff, even where age gaps and so on don't exist. I think both the creators and the fans need to be careful, even though I understand how content creation can be a lonely job and also understand that the people who watch a lot of online videos/streams might be people who don't have much going on IRL either. In fact, it's probably because of those things that people need to be even more careful. Be safe out there, people! That's my two cents :)
Agreed, and I think you hit the core of it with "I think friendship requires a different dynamic between the people involved than the dynamic that exists between a creator and a fan." Can't imagine ever even DMing people in a youth oriented fandom niche as a participant, let alone as a creator. Conversely, with content creators in non-beginner areas of stuff like 3D design, prototyping, vintage machine repair, etc., very often some viewers are far more experienced with certain aspects of the niche than the content creator. In those groups, long-term friendships are fairly common due to collaboration & iteration. But as you said, it's not driven by the fan-creator dynamic. It's much more like professionals with an area of interest/skill overlap becoming friendly acquaintances after working on a couple of projects.
For sure!!! I am friends with someone I used to enjoy their videos of. But the dynamic changed a lot from just hanging out and enjoy their streams/videos into genuinely hanging out online as an equal. We also have hung out as a group of friends irl before. It’s just different but we were both adults, shared common interests and there wasn’t a weird power dynamic. It’s so much more different when kids is entered in the picture and I think it’s so so weird to be in a “fandom” which is it’s whole own thing then the adult agreeing to be friends with a minor to that degree.
as a teacher i think if your fanbase is majority children/minors, you have to draw the line. you are the adult in the situation, it is your responsibility to say no, we can't be friends. i care about my students, we spend a lot of time together, and with them being upper elementary i can joke and play with them in a way that's fun for the both of us. but we are not friends. if anything comes up that is concerning, i immediately bring it to the school counselor or administrator, because that is their job. and sure there are students who move on to middle school who i love to keep up with, but i think the most exclusive i would get with any interaction would be attending one of their extracurricular activities, and only if was invited as a former teacher and nothing more. most of my "keeping up" is just asking younger siblings about them and telling them to say hi. i love my students, and i think any educator could admit we all have our "favorites", but they never stop being students in our eyes. a part of me will always see that ten year old kid, and i can't have a mature appropriate friendship with a kid.
I think it's good for kids to have friendly relationships with adults they aren't related to for a variety of reasons but yeah as an adult there is a careful distinction from the adults end of "I am friendly and I want to support you and help you grow but also I am an adult and there is a boundary here" I had really positive relationships with unrelated adults when I was a teenager that is probably part of why I am still here. (Home life wasn't good) But even though I thought of them as my friends at the time looking back I can see all the ways they kept boundaries up and kept both of us safe
@@ineffectualdemon i'm glad to hear that people were there to support you when you needed it. i don't think there's anything wrong with a child or student thinking to themselves that an adult is their friend, but like you said, it's on the adult to keep the healthy boundary. i wouldn't dream of like a poor kindergarten kiddo coming to me and saying i'm their friend and responding with, no we're not friends lol i would know myself that the relationship is different than a friendship and can act accordingly while also letting a young kid feel comfortable thinking of me as a safe person they like to be around.
@@FlyToTheRain That made me lol a bit the idea of a teacher actually saying 'No, we're not friends.' in response to that poor little kindergarten kid hahah
@@witchmorrow infinitely preferable to saying “no no no we’re totally best friends just don’t tell your parents about our special secret friendship or they’ll take me away from you and you’ll ruin it” Y’know like Colleen did
I used to volunteer as a digital crisis counselor for chat line aimed at suicide prevention for youth. One story really stuck out to me related to this whole parasocial relationship topic and how much of an influence creators can have on their fans, especially children. This kid that reached out expressed feeling depressed and betrayed because someone in their life didn’t disclose the severity of their illness that they unexpectedly died from. The whole conversation felt like the youth was grieving a family member or close friend who they had a complicated relationship with, but they ended up saying they were talking about a TH-camr. It was really disturbing how much of a personal relationship that kid felt they had with that (adult) creator. So much so that it was affecting their mental health tremendously. Super important for creators to set those boundaries especially when they have young fans.
The situation you're describing sounds like the youtuber was acutely aware, and chose to set boundaries and did not share private information about their lives. Feeling depressed because your idol is ill, or dead, is not even that strange or weird or whatever. Look at all the public mourning when a celebrity or other public figure dies. Having parasocial relationships isn't bad, I can guarantee you have parasocial relationships with a lot of people. Parasocial relationships can be very good actually. A child does not yet have the skills to deal with all of that, children's TV producers and actors are often very cognisant of that and do their very best to keep things safe for everyone. Your comment heaps blame on the youtuber; "super important for creators to set those boundaries" when the youtuber DID set boundaries, they didn't disclose their medical information with fans for one.
@@AnnekeOosterink I think their is more information not given to protect the identity of the child and creator in question. Children are very emotional and form a relationship with everyone human or humanized character they interact with even over a screen however, it is not normal for children to become seecidal from the death of a person or character they connect with over a screen from video entertainment. It is an issue if a child because so emotionally distraught for such a long period over such deaths. The fact this child was in this level of distress displays this creator either did in fact connect with their fans through an unbalanced relationship or the child has something else underlying that has made them incapable of handling grief in a healthy way. We cannot say for certain with the information given that just because this creator in question didn't share one single personal aspect of their life means they had a healthy fan interaction as a whole. We simply do not know.
@@blankcrossover The whole video was about how creators cross lines. If OP thought the creator crossed lines they would have said so. The only thing they describe the creator doing is setting boundaries. There is nothing indicating the creator did anything wrong, which OP would have mentioned since they immediately decide to blame the creator for doing something while OP describes the opposite of that.
@@AnnekeOosterink You've missed the point entirely. I don't know how else to explain this any differently. I already addressed everything you mentioned.
My little girl is 4.5 and loves watching TH-cam Kids. I am always reminding her that EVERYONE is playing make believe and that what she’s watching are characters doing skits and that it’s not real life. These lines can easily get blurred and I already feel as a mom that I have to start making a clear distinction between the internet and real life. She has already asked me to invite Jojo and Diana to her birthday party so at this age I’ve made it very black and white for her that these aren’t real people, they are performers. Of course the people playing these characters are real but kids need to be taught the difference and I’m starting now because as a mom with a young child, the internet scares me to death. Even as a fully formed adult I get confused about what is real and what isn’t sometimes. People like Trish Paytas that put out content that could be real or fake have left me wondering if she’s for real or not..so as parents we HAVE to talk to our kids and pay attention to what they are watching. Miranda Sings is a character but so is the internet version of Colleen Ballinger.
I think Colleen missed the point that she’s both a loser AND a creep for this 😭 there’s no “good” intention that makes what she did feel normal, even if the conversations were average and not horribly creepy, they can’t be your true equal friend because they’re KIDS
also anyway notice the gender double standard? "im not the creepy weird uncle who makes passes at children, I'm the weird aunt with no boundaries who tries to act like a teen". The implication that it CANT be predatory because shes a woman just trying to "get the tea", and as if the "weird aunt" couldnt send/request inappropriate/creepy things...idk. She threw everything at the wall and hoped something would stick, including self deprecation
Yeah like does she not realize that “that wierd aunt” CAN be a predator and not just a weirdo. None of my weird aunts have ever asked about my sex life 🤷🏻♀️
That's the thing, talking about your intimate sex life to a bunch of 14 -15 year olds and asking them their favourite sex position and how they lost their virginity is not being the loser aunt it is being a creep and it is incredibly predatory.
Cool, cool, valid point, but aren't the said kids to blame for consuming material that's not age appropriate, at all? I mean, it's not like she's that creep from the movies who trolls around the neighborhood asking children if they want candy and then snatches them up in the unmarked van with no windows... it's the internet... the risks are implied and assumed literally on any site. I don't know.. maybe it's the fact that I'm not American and wasn't raised with the celebrity bug, was taught common sense and the difference between real and virtual, good and bad... that sort of "nonsense" they don't use on the kids anymore.
I’m a teacher and I can see some parallels in the parasocial relationships and the relationship between myself and my students. I teach middle school aged kids (11-14) and they can struggle with the boundaries between myself (late 20s) and them. I care about my students and like to hear about their lives but I am not their friend. I have had students upset when I tell them this, particularly when I was a new teacher. Teens don’t seem to understand that it is weird if a 20 something wants to hang out with you and that it crosses a lot of boundaries!
I feel exactly the same way as a teacher. I've had kids ask me for social media and I've had to explain to them that it would be very inappropriate. They ask questions about my personal life that I don't want to share and a lot of the times they ask "why, its not a big deal" but to me it is a big deal because they are my students, not friends. I don't mind talking to them about stuff like hobbies and interests, and if they want to talk about personal stuff and overshare then that is their choice, but I would never ask them these things.
This, absolutely. As I was listening it sounded a lot like the relationship between teacher/students. The responsibility is on the Adult to set the boundaries because kids just don't understand. Especially coming from a home where they don't get attention, or where healthy boundaries aren't modelled very well, it's easy for a kid to get attached to a teacher.
Growing up in the 2010s was going from thinking the 20something Spencer’s Gifts employee who wanted to hang out with two ninth grade girls outside his job was so cool and had a great job and sweet tattoos and was so funny and relatable even as an adult, to being in 11th grade and finding him strange and immature- but even then. We were still so clearly obviously children that I remember one of the reasons we stopped hanging out with this adult man, was he got a terribly drawn deviantart furry tattoo for abysmally cheap, and that was so uncool to both of us it was the final straw. And I look back on that and I’m so glad that _as far as I know,_ nothing ever escalated. But I know for a fact he and my friend had discussed them dating when she turned 18. I lost contact w this friend a while ago so idk how she remembers this, but I hope the danger never escalated further for her the times I wasn’t there :/
I’m a school counselor, and I completely hear you about including this conversation in the curriculum. One of my go-to questions I ask students is, “what are the online rules in your house?” It helps me see what precautions are in place at home and what gaps they may need help with. At the end of the day, parents make the rules, and I’m hopeful I can encourage my students to be critical thinkers and good decision makers!
I think creators can be friendly with their fans, but I don’t think creators with a very young fan base can really interact as friends. Like it’s very strange to imagine that any adult would be making friends with literal children and talking to them like they’re people who could understand any issues an adult would have. And like they bring up in the video, there is a power dynamic there. It’s hard to imagine a normal friendship forming between a creator and a fan who has already felt like they know this creator. Like children especially have a tendency to idolize people they admire and I think that it can so easily be abused by someone in power. Like this whole situation is especially distressing to see since Colleen herself is a mother and I can’t imagine her wanting her children having this kind of relationship with some other adult.
@@Aiden-V2.0 Her kids are why I started not liking her. That was before I knew about Adam or any of that. She was in active *early* labor with her twins which was a high risk pregnancy. One twin was already struggling before labor started. Colleen decided she needed the quirky girl footage and spent time curling her hair before heading to the hospital. Then when she got there the doctors had her in for an emergency c-section within minutes of her arrival which she later says she wasn't really taking it seriously until then. That was the moment I realized she's dangerously narcissistic. This new info is no surprise to me, whatsoever.
yeah, that's what people used to write to Colleen, until she got herself a big mouthed enemy online, and now they all jumped ships and joined the angry mob 😅
@@AmandaJ__ how did you get to that conclusion? I was saying that most people who go around calling their favorite celebs or content creators "queen" are the ones who raise said celeb on a pedestal, and at the slightest turbulence with "receipts" cause you can't call that proof, they change camps and start chanting the same thing the main accuser does... kinda blindly might I add. It's not just about Colleen, take a gander at ALL the fandoms, including Cristine's. There are quite a few nuts who take things a bit too far with their infatuations and they're called "simps", and take pride in the fact that they "stan" or "are obsessed" with this or that. Those are the ones who join anything just to feel like they belong, and yet the whole blame is placed on the celeb alone. I call BS. The Colleen case is the most recent one that's been revived after 3 years of silence. Years that could've been used to actually take legal measures if it were the case and the many felonies she was accused of( on social media), are actually true. Those years could've also been used to make sure that she didn't "hurt" more people if she were all that guilty. Again, I smell BS.
@@m0t0b33 To be fair, I read your first comment as positive towards Colleen too. It was kinda vague. Colleen is 100% in the wrong here, especially based on her "apology" where she said she would take accountability and admitted to some of it and in the next second blamed it on toxic lies lol. There definitely need to be legal measures to make sure she never does any of this again.
I feel online parasocial relationships are like getting to know a character in a book. It's a one way relationship with someone who doesn't even exist. The time I've spent with Harry Potter via pages in books has been meaningful and impactful and is very real and valid. I have spent countless hours with him, sharing thoughts and feelings, being inside of his head and the thoughts I've had while reading changed me as a person, I laughed, I cried, I grew. But Harry Potter is not a real person and the experience doesn't exists outside of text. Just like reading a book time spent in parasocial relationships is meaningful but there's no relationship there. If I saw my fav streamers irl I wouldn't even acknowledge them because like Harry Potter the person I spent time with is more of a persona then a person I know.
I think you're hitting it right on with the employee/employer dynamic and where responsibility lies, and I think that exactly is what a lot of people missed with the Try Guys drama.
So many people were angry because they felt betrayed by someone who painted themselves a certain way, which is absolutely valid, but enough people ignored the employee/employer dynamic, which is alarming. And it happened both with people who thought the situation was stupid and overblown, as well as people who were outraged about the situation.
I experienced a similar situation to the colleen stuff with another youtuber (onision) when i was in my early teens. At the time i thought it was so cool that this person i admired wanted to interact with me, but looking back as an adult, the way this grown man was talking to me was extremely inappropriate. I know there were several fans who were heavily exploited (sexually) by him, some in real life. There are definitely parasocial relationships that can be positive (cristine being a great example) but the negative side to it is scary.
It's also different when both side acknowledge the imabalance and one sidedness of a parasocial relationship. I am an adult who has the maturity ro know that cristine doesn't know me, and that what we see of her is just a tiny bit of her life, carefully presented to us. But when content creators go on to tell how their fans are their family etc... (who will then feel compelled to buy thekr products and merch etc) that's just exploitation...
I'm sorry that happened to you! 🫂 I hope you are ok. Onision was the worse and that whole saga made me very upset especially his attitude and fake justifications. Ppl around him at the time were negatively affected.
@@Freaky0Ninayes 100% and it’s even worse when the fans are kids who maybe don’t understand power dynamics in the same way adults do. Making them way easier to manipulate.
ive noticed thats such a key thing, an adult creator convincing the minors that theyre "cool enough" for the attention the adult is giving them...its a classic predator move and looking at the texts. its really obvious but kids dont see that. I'm so sorry youve been hurt like this, nobody caught up in this deserves the kind of confusion and pain it brings
What ben said “I think a lot of youtubers use their audience to fill a hole in their lives” is so true. I’ve always thought this and I don’t like the thought of youtubers using their audience as “entertainment”. Thank you for posting this, i’m so glad this is being talked about
I'm a tech reviewer 😂 so since Ben brought it up, I do have a community of fans on discord and Patreon, but we most definitely keep the conversation pretty much about tech. I also used to reply to fan mail etc. I used to be a lot more transparent online but people crossed boundaries and stalking/harassment occurred. It freaked me out. I quickly learned the term parasocial after that and cut a lot of topics from my communication online. It's definitely a learned experience, none of us TH-camrs were ever taught this, especially in our generation when the only communication we had growin up was with people we knew in real life. I enjoyed your perspective ❤
I think what’s important is also teaching PARENTS how to handle situations like this with their kids. Most of these teenager’s parents KNEW about the group chat and were the ones taking them to these live shows. When I think about situations like the one Christine described, I always think back to that video of those kids staking out a TH-camrs house and their parent getting mad when the TH-camr didn’t want to give them their autograph. Like, parents also need to be taught boundaries.
its a fine line to walk though. Many of them didnt know/see because they trusted Colleen to set the boundary. I cant imagine what was going through the heads of the parents at the live shows who were 100% ok with it though... but you run into the issue of "you cant trust people online so let me monitor everything youre doing there" where the PARENT is now overstepping a boundary of their growing child who possibly needs more independent/privacy. Creators like Colleen just make it so much harder and is the reason so many parents are overprotective...this whole thing is a cautionary tale
@@rainestar82 It definitely is a cautionary tale. I think the parents themselves don't have a grasp on appropriate boundaries themselves. I see so much of myself in this whole situation. I have vivid memories of my mom and aunt telling me "he likes you" about a 30 year old man when I was 15. Teaching appropriate/inappropriate behavior online in school is a good idea, but it also needs to be taught in the home.
I think something that contributes to the problem is that parents aren’t well versed enough in online relationships to be able to have preventative conversations with their kids. We need to have the same sort of open dialogue we have when teaching children to be cautious of other adults or strangers. Obviously the responsibility is always in the hands of the person with power but parents need to understand what their kids are exposed to online. As a millennial parent the nuances of young people being online is something I find incredibly daunting to navigate in the future!
🎯 this is spot on. I'm not a parent, but I'm also a millennial who grew up with the "internet bad" mindset & it was the wild west back then. I'm glad nothing terrible ever happened to me or my friends.
I worry about this a lot. I remember being naive online myself as a child back when internet was much less tailored, I remember taking my cousin out to a local playground a few years back. How the kids immediately flocked to me because I was a young, cool looking woman, so the felt immediately less threatened and themselves started suggesting coming over to my house (sic!) , and that random day I had to really grow up (I was around 18-19) and gather these little strangers and let them know that adults who mean you ill can look like anyone and how to be careful. I fully believe that parents do not properly have chats with their children about boundaries to have with adults. I'm not trying to blame victims here, but if I was a creep on the playground - I could've done anything with these little kids. They invited themselves to my house! I also had kids walking into my flat because they saw cute cats inside... It horrifies me to realise how common this is.
So glad you guys are having this conversation, you have the perspective of famous content creators but are still in touch with reality and even have academic/professional experience that helps you form really nuanced viewpoints! So many TH-camrs say "it wasn't my intention to hurt anyone" but they need to go beyond that and focus on how their actions can impact their young impressionable fans. Y'all are the best!
I think creators and fans can be friendly towards each other, but not friends. If the parasocial dynamic is not present anymore, e.g. the fan and creator build a relationship outside of the context of the creator's occupation, then sure, a friendship can form.
Agreed. Both the content creator and the fan would need to see the other person as just a normal person for there to be any chance of a friendship forming. People can be friendly regardless of how they actually feel about them. Abuse of power comes from one party willing to do things they wouldn't normally do for attention from the creator who they see as better than them and the creator requesting things they wouldn't normally request from people that they see every day essentially abusing the power dynamic which can be found at any age, but can really be abused if the fans are young.
I'm actually thankful my mom constantly told me as a kid that "those Korean men don't even know I exist" 😭 like, it broke my heart but she was right & it saved me from turning for the worst
This is something I needed to hear, not in the form of viewer and content creator, but in the form of looking at it from a manager and employee perspective. I have a tendency to want to be able to help my employees, but it is draining, and led to a situation at work that was less than appealing to me, but watching this I wish my own manager had explained it more plainly like you two did in this podcast about setting those boundaries and power balances ahead of time. Thank you for helping me adjust my perspective, this was insightful to learn from you.
And to think I’d ever see Ben and Cristine talk about the situation… now hearing the points the Ben and Cris make, creators and even everyday people need to be held accountable for their actions.
As a teacher who is very conscious about my position of power and duty of care I’ve always talked about power dynamics with my students but never considered this specific type of relationship. This was a great conversation and such a good take away from a seriously dangerous situation.
I really appreciated both of Cristine and Ben's thoughts on this, especially when talking about the power dynamic aspect. That is the key point many, many, many other videos I have seen discussing this topic have missed. Creators should and do have a responsibility to understand and act accordingly with their fans due to this power dynamic. In the near future, I wouldn't be surprised if in the terms of service agreement that you accept to join these different social media platforms if there is a new clause about creators being responsible for how they interact with fans so that the platform can't be liable.
As someone who did teach young children, I had to set a boundary line with them because I'm their tutor, not their friend. Yes, I was friendly with them, but I also had to be strict and be an authoritative figure to get their homework done. I will say that the school I taught at did teach kids about the internet and how to navigate it with a parent. I just wished they talked about their relationships with online creators because a majority of them admitted to watching Andrew Tate and I had to be the one to explain that he's not a good role model. It's only going to get worse if nobody steps up against content creators who take advantage of their young audience.
As a therapist in Ontario I appreciate this conversation. It’s one I have with my clients (preteen/teens and their parents) I find that developmentally it’s important to know youths are forming relationships and that’s a priority to identity formation and social media is now impacting this development. We are trained to discuss power dynamics, transference and counter transference which I agree should be taught to everyone who finds themselves in a role of power. And at least a couple times in someone’s life they will be in a position of power (work, home, relationship, school etc) it’s important to learn how power dynamics can be used for good and be helpful but also need to learn when it turns harmful and dangerous. Something to think about and an ongoing conversation that is necessary as technology and online relationships become more embedded in our lives. There are consequences and it could be harmful (see Amanda Todd or human trafficking instances) - it’s very easy and anyone can fall into these weird dynamics and be harmed without having to leave their house. We as adults have a responsibility to protect , prevent and educate to stop harm. If someone is reading this and is in a precarious situation please contact someone for help.
When I briefly got to speak with Cristine in Raleigh recently, she actually did a great job of having clear boundaries while engaging. I felt comfortable saying that her encouragement for education helped me get to university (in Canada even) but understood that this was someone I don’t personally know. I appreciated how even after she asked about my studies, it felt clear that there was no personal relationship but I was still acknowledged for being a fan.
My favourite parasocial relationship moment was when Ben said "fuck you" to me on stream one time 😂 I loved this week pod, I liked the way you approached this subject and raised very interesting points!
I feel like the litmus test for the creator should be “if you wouldn’t ask a fan this question in front of your or their spouse/partner/parents, in some way it crosses a line. I feel like Cristine has (at least publicly) avoided the brunt of this because she was a bit older when she started and was faceless for most of the on-ramp of her TH-cam career.
@RinsDesk Colleen was younger when she started her career on TH-cam (21) than Christine was when she started her career (25), which I think is what the original commenter meant. However, I don't think age is an excuse for this behavior and Colleen definitely should have known better
@@swampelf21 and 25 have quite a bit of difference in real life experience. Also how old was Cristine when she started showing her face? That's the point I'd compare age wise, and while age is definitely not an excuse (there's no excuse for grooming children), it's maybe an explanation on the lack of understanding of what the relationship with her (Colleen) fans, especially kids, should look like and what boundaries it should have.
I honestly think its because Cristine and Ben both know how to set boundaries respectfully but firmly and basically always act with awareness of their influence on fans but they don't compromise their own needs to do so. Like there are times when fans are like "I wanna see this thing/content" and Cris is just "guys I get that but its not possible right now" or something. Just overall theyre better adjusted and I know KIDS who have great sense of boundaries, Colleen unfortunately didnt and thats where it broke down
Another one would be, if i weren't a creator, in a position of power, would i have any business talking to a person of this age? As a 35yo, i have no reason to be talking to a literal *child* that is *half my age*, in public or private. That's doesn't change when i become a creator.
Colleen strikes me as someone who is extremely immature and hasn’t learned social cues in life, always seeing admiration from everyone. She can’t stand it if someone doesn’t like her. This doesn’t excuse her behavior at all, just something I’ve noticed. Unfortunately young fans are the easiest to get to admire you. I don’t think you can be true friends because of the power dynamic like Cristine said.
I take she defending herself overall as painted not this horrible person who wanted to hurt kids but whether she didn't realize her behaviour was wrong the way been covering up now & doesn't seem to care it's hard to believe. edit pardon my english
I saw talk a while ago about trauma dumping, both in general and also streamers talking about how uncomfortable it can be. In regards to streamers, i think most people will feel bad for the person who trauma dumps, but what can they really offer other than a “im sorry you are going through that” ive also seen streamers explicitly ask their followers to not trauma dump to them because that can cause anxiety for them and that is 100% okay. In regards to say friend to friend, i have a system with my friend where we ask if they are in a good mental space to talk about those hard things. if not, no harm done we move on. its about respecting the other person’s emotions too
It's really that simple. If I ever get an interaction with someone that young my natural reaction will be responding in the most professional way. It truly frightens me that some people just don't have that innate barrier, like really without even thinking about it. It's concerning at the very least.
A lot of creators ended up marrying a fan they randomly talked to but the success stories of dating/being friends with fans is super low. Usually it’s weird and there’s power imbalance combined with obsessed fans.
Yeah Onision, was a PoS also I got blocked during that drama hahaha. Old YT, you never know with ppl online. But I want actual examples of married to fans?
I know that Drew Gooden met his wife, Amanda through vine, but I think he was still a very small creator and they seem like a good fit for each other, so I think it depends on the creator. Marrying a fan when you have 200 subscribers vs. 20 million is very different. He has a video on his channel where he talks about it if you’re curious
Glad they covered this topic! Not just because it’s hot tea at the moment but because they don’t stand by inappropriate parasocial relationships with minors and or fans of any age.
This was a really interesting watch. As a smaller creator who's just started going full time with TH-cam, I've made a Patreon Only Discord and this conversation was super insightful that maybe I've shared a *bit* too much with some of the people on it... I naturally shared a lot with my moderators who came in super early, are all 20+ years old and because we sort of grew the channel together it feels different there... but some of the fans... yeah I've made overshared when I've been in the middle of an anxiety attack or something, so now I can work on NOT coming near my discord when I'm feeling like that, even though everyone in it is 18+ you're right, it's still weird. Very insightful because sometimes it doesn't come easy and those lines arent as clear cut. Thanks for the discussions, I've taken several notes!
I’m only 12 minutes in but this is a topic I’ve thought about a lot. In fandoms there’s a built in commonality. If I were to meet Cristine and she didn’t go into sock mode, it’s pretty much guaranteed we’re going to talk about nails. True crime, comedy sketches, food, history, art… whatever genre, regardless of differences in age, ethnicity, economic status ect.,. you have common ground. I’m disabled & mostly homebound, so I have far too much time to watch TH-cam. I have a LOT of people I follow & feel like I know. But I’m very aware I don’t know them. I once joked with a creator that i was terrified to run into her at a random coffee shop or something because I might forget I don’t know her, run up & hug her like an old friend-& she’d have no idea who I am. I think that’s a very common feeling. I’m 45. There’s a creator who is my age. In addition to watching his videos i also watch a weekly interactive livestream. We met in person at a convention for his genre. We clicked, I thought, but I told myself it was one sided. On the next livestream he saw my name & told everyone about our meeting. For the last year we’ve had chatted frequently in the livestream, emailed occasionally & he’s even offered to help me with my own little newbie channel in the genre. Still, I’m hesitant to call him a friend. On the livestream he once responded to me saying he wished my husband & I lived closer so we could go get a beer. I feel the same, but since we don’t, I don’t feel like “friend” is the appropriate term. I think we WOULD be friends if circumstances were a little different. I don’t know what he is. I’m a fan & it would be weird to be a fan of a rl friend. I actually would love to get to know him better, but I’m sure every fan feels that. I do think he likes me personally. I hope you’ll get to it, but I think it’s also important to note that a lot of creators are lonely & the fan base really is a support system. I’m thinking of one woman who said that the parasocial relationship was reversed & she was the one imagining us as her friends or family while we turn her off at the end of the video & go about our lives without thinking of her until the next alert, while she’s thinking of us the whole time. But still that “you guys” is a collective, not an individual. Most creators are seeking attention for one reason or another. Some people find an unhealthy amount of validation from fans. And fans can be abusive as well. The whole dynamic is strange. And new. I’m sure it’s keeping plenty of sociology & psych students busy. There’s more interpersonal interaction between social media creators & fans than there is with other types of celebrity. It creates a sense of connection & who’s really to say if that is false or genuine? There’s a person often in the livestream I mentioned who is a little off. They are repetitive & get hurt or angry when not mentioned by name by the creator. They are going to this year’s convention (I’m not) and have asked if the two people on the livestream will be there, even after being told yes. They ask 3-4 times for the last few livestreams. It felt odd & I looked up the uniquely spelled name, and found someone with obvious delusions. A lot of “there’s a conspiracy against me” stuff that is almost certainly indicative of schizophrenia. My husband lives with paranoid schizophrenia (& ptsd, & hyper vigilance). Schizophrenics are 600x more likely to be victims of a crime than perpetrators. Mentally ill does NOT mean dangerous. But, delusions can make people unpredictable & I wrote the creator, letting him know & asking if he had enough security at the convention. I haven’t heard back. It’s probably weird to have a fan warning you about another fan. But I was concerned. All of these creators are putting themselves out in the world where they are vulnerable and exposed to the best and the worst people. I’m very into true crime, and that’s an audience with built in risk. There are many reasons to follow tc, and unfortunately that includes people who fantasize about committing crimes & even some who have. Cristine meets a fan, she can assume they like nail art or polish. Tc creators can only assume there’s a darker streak in the personality and an interest in crime. Despite that creepiness, I’ve recently started a tc channel. I only have a handful of followers but I get really excited when I have a comment or question from someone. It’s so strange that someone I’ve never met is watching me, has invested enough time in me to make a comment. I have no idea what it’s like for people with thousands of followers but right now I get a positive comment & want to meet up for coffee. I don’t have anyone irl who shares my interests, and that’s part of why I started my channel. But I know I have to keep a boundary up. There has to be a wall. Especially for me. When you have a partner who has delusions of people plotting against him, you can’t invite internet strangers into your personal life. Especially those well versed in crime. Talking to a viewer is exiting for me, but it has to stay online. Maybe I’d be more open if he didn’t have to live in a constant state of fight/flight/freeze/fawn. But, it definitely keeps me strict with my boundaries. I don’t know if my channel will last or grow. Right now I just really appreciate every view & I feel curios about who that person is as an individual. They matter to me. If there were millions it would probably be harder to think of people as individuals. Anyway, I’m happy to see this topic. I’m very curious about this mostly as a fan, but also from the creator side.
I like this podcast episode because you’re talking about what the inappropriate relationship of grooming is, rather than trying to clown or add fuel to the fire. Good vid
I used to watch Colleen vlogs literally everyday, and when this developed I was extreamly confused and did not know what to think. I still am, so this reasonable talk was very helpfull. thanks guys! 💖
I really appreciate this discussion. I hope a lot of people see this, within and outside of your typical fanbase. Creators, teens, whomever needs to hear it. And now the related hill I will die on: EVERY PERSON SHOULD HAVE A THERAPIST AT ONE POINT IN THEIR LIFE.
One interesting topic they didn’t really touch on is the phenomenon of the streamer-chat relationship, which is distinct from the generic creator-fan dynamic. Streamers are live, and respond in real time to people in chat. At the same time, what I think really sets the dynamic apart is that in some ways, streamers don’t form a relationship with individuals, but rather “chat” as a whole, as if the hundreds or thousands of people are personified as a single entity. In that way, an individual can form a parasocial relationship with a streamer, while the streamer can actually form a parasocial relationship with chat, which is not really reciprocal. Streamers will not reciprocate a close bond with a viewer, but chat and it’s members cannot actually meaningfully reciprocate the bond that the streamer feels with them, because of the multidimensional nature of what chat is.
Something interesting I’ve seen in the past decade are fans that feel like they know a creator and speak on their behalf. Like commenting ‘Christine would hate this’, or ‘this is what Christine would think of that’, as if they know the creator in real life. Or fans that spread hate in a creators or brands name- like posting unsolicited holo taco praise on another nail polish brands page or commenting ‘it’s not holo taco so it’s garbage’. Honestly I’m usually more of a lurker these days cause I just can’t stand the toxic people that pop up in every fandom. My butterfly nails were recreated in a video here a few years ago and I got messages asking me if I got HT coupons or if I talked with cristine now. Nope, I didn’t even know until the video came out. Just cause I was mentioned doesn’t mean I’m special or entitled to more of Christine’s time or attention- just that my nails were awesome that day. 😊
Thinking about these different dynamics it makes me think about Selena Quintanilla who was M*rd*red by the head of her fan club and how these power dynamics have always been around with famous people and fans but how we’re only talking about it now that there’s more options for direct communication between fans and the people they are fans of
Cristine said what I have been feeling. Can you be friends with a “normie” as an influencer? Of course. It is a normal thing. But age is a very very very important factor here. I am 35, I can see the red flags if there are any, so if an influencer I follow wants to be friends I am mentally equipped to handle that. But for a child, that is the best thing that has happened to them. I remember as a 14 year old getting a smile from my fav singer in a concert had convinced me that we are friends. If the same thing happens to me now, I will smile back and move on. That’s what has been so disturbing about the whole Colleen situation. She was a fully grown adult, talking about private stuff to an unknown child online. Sorry children. 😑😑I barely ever followed her and some of the things I am seeing is shocking.
I agree with all of your points. Millennials were the first to really experience making money off of being an Internet personality. However, boundaries have been slowly established over the years. She is in her mid 30s. She never once saw another creator and thought “oh man. Maybe I shouldn’t be doing that anymore?” Even if you aren’t a good person, a good business person knows that you have to change with the times. The fact she ignored her PR team on how to deal with this very serious situation speaks VOLUMES.
They view the other person as the problem instead of tackling the problem together with that person. Being defensive and offensive is not good for communication.
I think continuing to support her after her “apology” video is actually disgusting. That video was horrific and such a terrible way to address the situation. She is so out of touch with reality, and so are the people who continue to forgive and support her.
She really shouldn't have made that song, or she'd never have gone viral, and people who didn't care or didn't already follow her wouldn't have been drawn in. And without background context, it absolutely is a distasteful response. But this is not the first time she has apologized for this. She's been through it in complete detail already, and those videos are on her channel from back when the same boy came out about it the first time. I'm not saying you should support her or look past her actions, I'm honestly just getting so annoyed at how confidently hateful people can be when they are so clearly ignorant on the topic. If 2023 is the first time you are hearing about this, and your source of information is other youtubers, reddit, or news commentary, then you are at best partially informed, and at worst misinformed.
@@mckinneypassios4273 She did, she was just quite defensive as well. I really don't agree with her actions at all. But what actions continued? All of the substantiated claims were in the past. If it comes out her current behavior still involves being inappropriate with minors, my tune will change completely.
This is such an important conversation that needed to be heard! thank you for doing this rather than just rehashing all the drama like every other TH-camr right now.
All I can think of is how sorry I feel for her kids and her husband. I sincerely loved her vlog videos and pushed aside any red flags I thought I perceived/imagined. I feel like I blinded myself by not looking what was happening behind the scenes and I feel terrible about it. It honestly sucks that someone you looked up to isn't who you thought they were.
I've been "watching" her when she went through her 1st pregnancy and her twin pregnancy and while I wasn't watching her enough to pick up on major red flags one thing I didn't like is when she dismissed her husband's feelings after she had her twins. He had expressed he thought her had some sort of postpartum depression and she scoffed at him, I thought it was odd and kind of rude and everyone pointed it out while other die hard fans defended her reaction. I didn't form enough of a fan bond (for the lack of a better term) to feel blind sided but it is still a bummer. Like other than that one incident, I never thought she was capable of something like this but maybe that's how good she was at covering it up
Colleen isn’t even a good example for this really as she wasn’t trying to be “besties” with her fans. She sent them nudes (while at least one fan was underage), inquired about their favourite sex positions (while they were underage) and asked them about their virginity. There’s so many other issues, she wasn’t an ignorant TH-camr who just didn’t know better. This was predatory behaviour. I feel like it’s not an issue for other creators IF fans are age appropriate, have common ground, shared values and boundaries are in place to ensure both parties and the friendship are protected.
Miranda Sings according to colleen was based on a 16 year old girl, who was “weird” and couldn’t sing. And she has also mentioned Miranda has characteristics of her classmates that SHE thought weren’t good enough, according to her standards.
Also characteristics from her disabled brother. Idk she changes the story a lot but weirdly I think it's all true. Just that the character changed a lot over the years.
It definitely has changed and evolved. I haven't watched her in a year or two, and I haven't followed this drama at all, but I seem to recall her saying that she created the character in University to vent about classmates who thought they were better than they were.
@@chiron.equine yes! Shes also said this. She's also said it was to make fun of people on TH-cam who think they're good singers and aren't. Weirdly, I think it's true.
the irony of Miranda being created to mock teenager singers who "thought they were good when they werent" as a way to take them down a peg...Colleen drank her own koolaid with the response song, took herself WAY too seriously because she actually bothered to write/compose a scripted song. the lack of self awareness was stunning
I had an instructor in college try to befriend me. I wasn’t underage but there was a power dynamic, and I was easily emotionally manipulated. I didn’t fully grasp what he was doing until years later. He flipped on me as soon as I rejected his advances. He wanted to be my only friend and the only person I would confide in. One day I said eff that and had to get another staff member involved so he wouldn’t try to sabotage my grade in the class.
26:50 and this is a big part of the issue imho. Seen so many people saying "Mirandas a fictional character, theres no harm" and that idea of "selling an object (fictional character/comedy)" COULD be at play...except now its clear that Miranda is essentially a mask Colleen was wearing, intentionally or otherwise. The brand has been her the entire time and if it was JUST about a fictional character and their story with no inappropriate content, that would be one thing. But even if she hadnt interacted with her fans, the content she was "selling" them was STILL inappropriate for their ages. And you cant play the "its just fiction" card when both in the fiction AND in real life, many boundaries were crossed by the one person with all the power.
This was such an interesting discussion. Thank you so much. My heart broke when you discussed fans reaching out for monetary help or trauma dumping. puuuuffff. I can not imagine how that feels. I hope there is a way for you not to see those kinds of messages.
Everything here was really well said. I'm glad to see you touch on the topic of fans trauma dumping too. The people we admire are NOT the people to unload your trauma on. I always appreciate when I see people saying things like, "hey I wanted you to know that you got me through some dark times and I'm grateful" and are able to leave it at that; I don't think there is anything wrong with sending a message like this. But exposing creators/actors/musicians to to the full extent your own personal trauma is just so unfair. The average person isn't equipped to hear about the awful things that go on in the world on the regular. That's what therapy is for. Please fam, reach out to someone who is able to help you, because your favs just aren't it.
The Tom Cruise example is taking me out, because I would be worried for anyone of any age who Tom Cruise is trying to befriend, because what if he’s trying to recruit them to scientology???
37:45 hi Ben and Cristine, I am a Psychologist myself and I really liked your take on this. You are absolutely correct that there are risks to the other person and to yourself in opening that Pandora’s box into responding to your subscribers in that way. One of the reasons I’ve gravitated towards your content and stayed so long is that you and Ben both appear to have a very educated and ethical approach to content creation. Those boundaries are so important. Because of my scope of work, I have stayed off the internet despite wanting to be a content creator for a long time, as I feel like I know all of the limitations and the ways that it could go wrong and don’t feel ready yet navigate those complexities. Love from Sask! You represent Canada so well on this platform.
Pointing out the basis of your common ground is so important, so I love this episode! If you watch a creator who loves film, you might become friends discussing the mutual interest. But if your only common ground is your admiration for another person, that person can’t reciprocate because your characteristic is tied to THEM and barely has anything to do with you!
such an interesting if not depressing topic. friendship is certainly possible assuming boundaries exist and depending on the content like Ben said about the whole "cult of personality" thing where the entire base of the relationship is about how amazing that celebrity type person is. i also think the topic at the end is so important. i think i remember Dan and Phil talking about how fan letters ended up getting really inappropriate and essentially asking them to be their therapist and the toll it took on them. i'm 33 so on one hand its like i get these teenagers are living in unsafe situations or what have you so they reach out to youtubers or musicians but at the end of the day y'all are people too and shouldn't be asked to carry that weight anymore than that 16year old should. that's why therapists exist. it's a tricky subject for sure, and i'm glad y'all are talking about it. i'll be honest i'm the one you replaced my Vacation Collection for after losing it in a disaster, and while that meant the world to me to feel cared for by *someone* out there- Julien reached out in a similar way- it would be so inappropriate to continue reaching out on either of our ends thinking that it meant something other than a kind gesture considering how much of a power imbalance is there and how much i'm struggling. I think this topic needs to come up more so folks remember that no matter what, youtuber, streamer, big time musician, people are still people with all our own issues and weights to carry. can't help everyone and when you have hundreds, thousands, or millions of people reaching out asking for help and trauma dumping i can't imagine that weight knowing you can't help them. thank you for the lovely and continually appropriate para-social holo madness where i get to escape my reality even if for a minute. that's all the help i need from y'all~✌️🐱
honestly this is part of the reason i am becoming a teacher because i want to help students not only learn how to engage with media intelligently but also how to engage on social media and the internet safely as a young child online i didn’t have these resources to protect and it’s honestly a miracle i didn’t engage in dangerous circles online
I’m not a regular watcher, I don’t know why, I love these two. Any video I have seen of the podcast has always given me really wholesome protective kind and thoughtful vibes. Two very good people for sure!
My friend is a cosplayer and a lot of people have a parasocial relationship with her who she has meet briefly at conventions or interact with her online. Like there have been people who think they are alot closer then they are.
This reminds me of a few years ago, someone who was part of a larger TH-cam based entertainment company was found to have basically been grooming young girls (usually around 17-20, he was nearly 40). There were a bunch of people arguing about whether it was technically legal which grossed me out so much because that didn't matter. What mattered was an older person who had much younger people who idolised them capitalising on that to have relationships with them. I feel like celebrities automatically have some power over their fans, because those fans want to please them/make them happy, and if they're young or inexperienced or whatever, this could push them to do thinks they aren't comfortable with. I feel like if there is common ground between you and a celebrity beyond the celebrity themselves then yeah, there's no reason you couldn't strike up a conversation but you have to be entering it as equals, not as an idol and the person who idolizes them.
As someone who works behind the scenes with a content creator and seeing how easily parasocial people can get, it’s sad seeing someone take advantage of that. This whole ordeal is so nasty. I’m pretty sure any normal content creator understands how to keep their distance and how to keep a healthy relationship between them and their fans.
I do think there can be a reasonable point where it is hard though. Most grow from nobodies first so at first everyone are kind of on equal level and you build relationships with people around you. Other creators, fans that become your mods etc. I think having a bit of difficulty finding the right level of interaction during growth spurts is reasonable. It's a different thing when you're big, by then you should have it figured out.
@@hernameispekka_Rebecca I understand that. But going by this context of Colleen she knows as a grown adult, you need to have boundaries. Especially if you know most of your fans are underage/young. None of what she did was normal or a part of her popularity growth.
As a creator of a pretty small channel who is starting to get emails/DMs from fans on a relatively regular basis, this is something that i have become more and more aware of, and something that i have been thinking about. I think every creator personally has to choose what they are comfortable sharing with fans. I also have a pretty strong IRL friend group, a lot of whom don't even know my channel exists, and I have realised it's really important for me to maintain these friendships and keep them separate from my channel. My friend and I were also talking about professionalism when it comes to other work relationships, for example, she is a speech therapist and she has a strict policy where she won't give therapy to her friends kids because it crosses a line for her. I kinda see my channel in that way, and really try to separate my friendships from my work/channel. Not all creators do that, but it's where i feel comfortable.
I think Jenna Marbles particularly was good at maintaining a wonderful fanbase while acknowledging the power dynamic/parasocial aspect, like I remember her saying "Like you guys see me all the time, but i dont actually know who you are" and when she had issues with stalkers, having those boundary really clearly. I think thats ultimately why she left TH-cam, to maintain her privacy and distance from the ever increasing social climate of oversharing with your audience.
Cristine and Ben, thank you for talking about this! It is nice to hear from another long-time creator who has a mixture of ages in their fanbase about what is appropriate and what is not appropriate for a fan-creator or celebrity "relationship." I also like that for example in your discord, you have a support-resources channel that can make sure people can reach out for mental health help if needed. I've noticed that for some fans who are more likely to be preyed on are younger and also people who could be in a mental health crisis or have something stressful going on in their lives. This ofc does not apply to everyone, but you putting out resources for people to get help if they need it is incredibly important and I commend you for that.❤
Her "apology" is not even an apology but it irked me that she MONETIZED the video!!! She knew she'll be getting tons of views / traction/ comments and still took advantage of the situation and is getting even more money??!? Like WTf she has no shame
I’m a teacher and I have told my students before that I’m not their friend I’m their teacher and if they ever have a teacher who is trying to be their friend outside of school immediately tell their parents/admin because of the power in balance that relationship holds. I’ll still listen and be there for my students but I make the boundaries clear of where our relationship ends. I feel like it’s the same for creators they need to be open and honest with their fans so this doesn’t happen
I'm so happy to listen to you guys, feel like there is a wholesome bubble of respect and jokes and ALSO feeling you are not my friend and just a kind person living your life on the other side of the world
We all know Cris used her platform to talk about the sailor moon coloring book incident, rightly so 🤣 it is a deeply personal and relevant topic that needed to be talked about 🤣 In all seriousness, I really enjoyed this weeks pod, I think it is very responsible to talk about this. I know it probably wasn't the most comfortable convo to have but it helps build more trust with your audience. It shows that you respect the relationship you have with fans and are conscious about where the lines are with them. Hopefully current and future youtubers can learn from this.
I loved your points. I do think part of it that was a little funny near the end is Christine basically passing along her social anxiety by recommending considering people's worst case scenario for doing something. There is a balance there for sure of not being taken advantage of, but also not shutting down connections
Thank you Ben and Cristine for tackling the issue with such nuance and understanding. I think a lot of people need to hear this and it's applicable in any type of online relationship too
Even without the fanbase being children, I think creators need to be very careful with creating actual friendships with fans because that power dynamic is always there and affects the relationship.
i feel like taylor swift is a good example of being ‘friends’ with fans especially before rep. she used to do secret sessions at her house and knew fan pages by name and she took the initiative to monetarily help sometimes. yet nothing bad was said since there was a clear boundary and she was never too involved. im not saying she didnt see them as equals but she was clearly aware these were FANS of her. i feel like semi personal interactions like this is cute but what coleen did is crazy. also what the fuck was that song. unhinged
It is such a weird time to be a fan of someone with the level of connection we are able to have these days, it's a complicated issue and I really appreciate this broader conversation. I think the clearest line in the sand is absolutely do not have personal relationships with underage fans, after that it definitely gets more difficult.
I really love how you both approach this topic with so much intelligence and straightforwardness. I have loved seeing all of the original TH-camrs since the beginning, but these allegations are quite troubling
I think the power imbalance conversation also could be applied to musicians and their fans. During the 2000s there were a lot of bands who were "friends" with their fans and ultimately the fans came out later saying they had been groomed, assaulted, etc by those people. It can be exhilarating to have someone with "fame" talk to you as a friend but it is up to the "famous" person to not overstep boundaries and directly or indirectly use their power to get something from other people.
It’s easy for a creator to use a fan bc a fan will truly care about them, while the creator isn’t emotionally connected in the same way - making it easy to not care about the repercussions that may have on said fan :/
ok besides the main point of the episode, the fact that ben mentioned tom cruise so many times without thinking of the possibility of tom cruise trying to recruit him to join scientology at the end is rlly funny to me
I think this was such a great podcast and podcast idea. There’s so many people going over what happened with the colleen situation, but it’s nice to hear about it as an overall concept of what is and is not appropriate in fan interactions.
I love hearing you guys talk about this stuff because not only do I like your exchanges between each other but it also sheds light on this very real problem with boundaries and influencers. You guys always have great topics ❤️
As long as they’re all adults and there’s no manipulation going on then I don’t see the problem. If a famous person/creator meets a fan (the same age), they hit it off and become friends it’s cool. No problem. But minors? Instant red flag. 🚩Then using them, manipulating them, having s*xual coversations with them = illegal and wrong on all levels!
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Cristine in her groupchat with fans: can you BELIEVE Beyn only got me two cups of tea today? The audaci-tea!!!!
now thats the TEA that discord is for hahahhaa
lol Christine shows that you can interact with ur fams without being a creep etc vs so many interactions with colleen have been creepy
When I saw the Colleen “apology” video, I immediately thought any adult will look at this and see an unhinged woman whose career is unraveling before her eyes. A child may actually see that video and feel bad for her, or not notice how crazy that “song” is. I find it odd she chose to make a song, it seems like another tactic to get children or her younger followers take pity on her. It was an automatic red flag, and aside from that I have second hand embarrassment from that video.
My face when I saw clips from that "apology" video: 😬😑🤮
@@klarabarunovic9841 you and me both…. I actually felt so uncomfortable!
@@kylabella05I never liked her for some reason and I'm glad that a valid reason for that just revealed itself... but yikes, it's a bad one😶
Another content creator mentioned that is easier to copyright strike a video that involves music, maybe that's why?
@@WYIN98 yess!! I heard that too in a recent video I watched, that makes a lot of sense.
As a therapist, I really appreciated the discussion about how we have a skillset and a plan to be able listen to and support someone in trauma processing (and still keep ourselves protected) - because you're right, if you open up your DMs you have no control over whether you are exposed to information that could be heavy, triggering, or otherwise negatively affect you in some way.
Yes, and we also choose to hear it! There's an admission process and not one therapist deals with all issues.
Yes! We also have training in maintaining appropriate boundaries. When they mentioned adding a class to schools curriculum, I think that's the class we really need to have. It's the overarching theme of most clients problems that they never learned to identify communicate or maintain appropriate healthy boundaries.
I'm not a therapist, I'm 31 years old man, I've had good times and bad times in my life, if a friend wants to talk to me about how they're feeling at the time of their divorce, I can stand by them and give them advice. In the past I have. That's because, while I've never been married, I've been in relationships in the past, and can compartmentalize and give advice based on my personal experience. A 14-year-old boy falls in love with the first two-legged thing that walks in front of him and falls out of love with it just as quickly. They haven't been in a serious relationship, because they don't have the tools to do it (There are exceptions of people who have been together since they were in kindergarten, but these are extremely rare cases). Also the friends I helped in those situations didn't talk to me about their sex life. Those who think Colleen is innocent of all this make me laugh. She is not.
I never thought of that, now I feel bad about trauma dumping in the comments of videos (I've never done it with Christine or other creators in mind, but recently I've been relating to trauma with other people who have commented on the videos covering Colleen- half the time I'll get insecure about it and end up not commenting at all but the other half I'll try and give general info as to try and not trigger anyone).
Kiraburns, it's okay, I'm just a mental health advocate and I'm in therapy, but honestly the word trauma dumping gets over used in my opinion. You're not commenting in these places out of context, that's actual trauma dumping which often people who do so don't care about the other person's ability to take that info in. Part of healing abuse is it being witnessed, that's why telling your story matters. There's of course a time snd place. If it's in the comments of videos related to the issues or that remind you of the issue that's appreciate time and place. What Christine is saying is people sending her these messages while her content is about nail art. Telling your story also helps others feel less alone and able to heal and sometimes if needed bring justice to their abusers. Example is Adam who started speaking up again after seeing another victim stand up. Now he is taking legal action, now he is seeking therapy.
I think Ben and Cristine made a lot of great points here. Age gap, power imbalance, creators not having much time for real life relationships, creators being financially supported by their fans to some extent, etc.
Personally, I don't think it's impossible for a creator to become friends with someone who used to be a fan, but I think friendship requires a different dynamic between the people involved than the dynamic that exists between a creator and a fan. I also think there needs to be a particular way that relationship begins that doesn't involve the fan being creepy/stalkery or the creator being creepy in a different way.
For example, one of the creators I watch is Molly Burke, and the last time she went to guide dog training she met some people there who were fans of hers. But the key is that they were also there to attend the training, so neither side went out of their way to meet the other or even really knew it was going to happen. They had a legitimate reason for ending up in the same place at the same time, under circumstances where normal people very well might become friends if they met that way. That's the sort of opportunity where I can see potential for relationships developing and changing, perfectly naturally. At the same time, though, Molly has shared some information about having to deal with at least one fan forming an unhealthy attachment to her and trying to create a relationship she didn't want to have. That is just plain awful.
I'm not saying that friendships can't start online or that purely online friendships can't happen. I've definitely had some. But I do think it's easier for people within fan communities to make friends with each other than it is for fans to make friends with the creator and vice versa. Exactly because of power imbalance and money stuff, even where age gaps and so on don't exist.
I think both the creators and the fans need to be careful, even though I understand how content creation can be a lonely job and also understand that the people who watch a lot of online videos/streams might be people who don't have much going on IRL either. In fact, it's probably because of those things that people need to be even more careful.
Be safe out there, people! That's my two cents :)
Agreed, and I think you hit the core of it with "I think friendship requires a different dynamic between the people involved than the dynamic that exists between a creator and a fan."
Can't imagine ever even DMing people in a youth oriented fandom niche as a participant, let alone as a creator.
Conversely, with content creators in non-beginner areas of stuff like 3D design, prototyping, vintage machine repair, etc., very often some viewers are far more experienced with certain aspects of the niche than the content creator. In those groups, long-term friendships are fairly common due to collaboration & iteration. But as you said, it's not driven by the fan-creator dynamic. It's much more like professionals with an area of interest/skill overlap becoming friendly acquaintances after working on a couple of projects.
Well said, I agree!
For sure!!! I am friends with someone I used to enjoy their videos of. But the dynamic changed a lot from just hanging out and enjoy their streams/videos into genuinely hanging out online as an equal.
We also have hung out as a group of friends irl before. It’s just different but we were both adults, shared common interests and there wasn’t a weird power dynamic. It’s so much more different when kids is entered in the picture and I think it’s so so weird to be in a “fandom” which is it’s whole own thing then the adult agreeing to be friends with a minor to that degree.
+1
as a teacher i think if your fanbase is majority children/minors, you have to draw the line. you are the adult in the situation, it is your responsibility to say no, we can't be friends. i care about my students, we spend a lot of time together, and with them being upper elementary i can joke and play with them in a way that's fun for the both of us. but we are not friends. if anything comes up that is concerning, i immediately bring it to the school counselor or administrator, because that is their job. and sure there are students who move on to middle school who i love to keep up with, but i think the most exclusive i would get with any interaction would be attending one of their extracurricular activities, and only if was invited as a former teacher and nothing more. most of my "keeping up" is just asking younger siblings about them and telling them to say hi. i love my students, and i think any educator could admit we all have our "favorites", but they never stop being students in our eyes. a part of me will always see that ten year old kid, and i can't have a mature appropriate friendship with a kid.
I think it's good for kids to have friendly relationships with adults they aren't related to for a variety of reasons but yeah as an adult there is a careful distinction from the adults end of "I am friendly and I want to support you and help you grow but also I am an adult and there is a boundary here"
I had really positive relationships with unrelated adults when I was a teenager that is probably part of why I am still here. (Home life wasn't good)
But even though I thought of them as my friends at the time looking back I can see all the ways they kept boundaries up and kept both of us safe
@@ineffectualdemon i'm glad to hear that people were there to support you when you needed it. i don't think there's anything wrong with a child or student thinking to themselves that an adult is their friend, but like you said, it's on the adult to keep the healthy boundary. i wouldn't dream of like a poor kindergarten kiddo coming to me and saying i'm their friend and responding with, no we're not friends lol i would know myself that the relationship is different than a friendship and can act accordingly while also letting a young kid feel comfortable thinking of me as a safe person they like to be around.
As an educator, yes to everything you said. The perfect way to describe a teacher - student experience and how it should always remain ❤
@@FlyToTheRain That made me lol a bit the idea of a teacher actually saying 'No, we're not friends.' in response to that poor little kindergarten kid hahah
@@witchmorrow infinitely preferable to saying “no no no we’re totally best friends just don’t tell your parents about our special secret friendship or they’ll take me away from you and you’ll ruin it” Y’know like Colleen did
I used to volunteer as a digital crisis counselor for chat line aimed at suicide prevention for youth. One story really stuck out to me related to this whole parasocial relationship topic and how much of an influence creators can have on their fans, especially children. This kid that reached out expressed feeling depressed and betrayed because someone in their life didn’t disclose the severity of their illness that they unexpectedly died from. The whole conversation felt like the youth was grieving a family member or close friend who they had a complicated relationship with, but they ended up saying they were talking about a TH-camr. It was really disturbing how much of a personal relationship that kid felt they had with that (adult) creator. So much so that it was affecting their mental health tremendously. Super important for creators to set those boundaries especially when they have young fans.
The situation you're describing sounds like the youtuber was acutely aware, and chose to set boundaries and did not share private information about their lives.
Feeling depressed because your idol is ill, or dead, is not even that strange or weird or whatever. Look at all the public mourning when a celebrity or other public figure dies. Having parasocial relationships isn't bad, I can guarantee you have parasocial relationships with a lot of people. Parasocial relationships can be very good actually.
A child does not yet have the skills to deal with all of that, children's TV producers and actors are often very cognisant of that and do their very best to keep things safe for everyone.
Your comment heaps blame on the youtuber; "super important for creators to set those boundaries" when the youtuber DID set boundaries, they didn't disclose their medical information with fans for one.
@@AnnekeOosterink I think their is more information not given to protect the identity of the child and creator in question. Children are very emotional and form a relationship with everyone human or humanized character they interact with even over a screen however, it is not normal for children to become seecidal from the death of a person or character they connect with over a screen from video entertainment. It is an issue if a child because so emotionally distraught for such a long period over such deaths.
The fact this child was in this level of distress displays this creator either did in fact connect with their fans through an unbalanced relationship or the child has something else underlying that has made them incapable of handling grief in a healthy way. We cannot say for certain with the information given that just because this creator in question didn't share one single personal aspect of their life means they had a healthy fan interaction as a whole. We simply do not know.
@@blankcrossover The whole video was about how creators cross lines. If OP thought the creator crossed lines they would have said so. The only thing they describe the creator doing is setting boundaries. There is nothing indicating the creator did anything wrong, which OP would have mentioned since they immediately decide to blame the creator for doing something while OP describes the opposite of that.
@@AnnekeOosterink You've missed the point entirely. I don't know how else to explain this any differently. I already addressed everything you mentioned.
My little girl is 4.5 and loves watching TH-cam Kids. I am always reminding her that EVERYONE is playing make believe and that what she’s watching are characters doing skits and that it’s not real life. These lines can easily get blurred and I already feel as a mom that I have to start making a clear distinction between the internet and real life. She has already asked me to invite Jojo and Diana to her birthday party so at this age I’ve made it very black and white for her that these aren’t real people, they are performers. Of course the people playing these characters are real but kids need to be taught the difference and I’m starting now because as a mom with a young child, the internet scares me to death. Even as a fully formed adult I get confused about what is real and what isn’t sometimes. People like Trish Paytas that put out content that could be real or fake have left me wondering if she’s for real or not..so as parents we HAVE to talk to our kids and pay attention to what they are watching. Miranda Sings is a character but so is the internet version of Colleen Ballinger.
I think Colleen missed the point that she’s both a loser AND a creep for this 😭 there’s no “good” intention that makes what she did feel normal, even if the conversations were average and not horribly creepy, they can’t be your true equal friend because they’re KIDS
also anyway notice the gender double standard? "im not the creepy weird uncle who makes passes at children, I'm the weird aunt with no boundaries who tries to act like a teen". The implication that it CANT be predatory because shes a woman just trying to "get the tea", and as if the "weird aunt" couldnt send/request inappropriate/creepy things...idk. She threw everything at the wall and hoped something would stick, including self deprecation
Yeah like does she not realize that “that wierd aunt” CAN be a predator and not just a weirdo. None of my weird aunts have ever asked about my sex life 🤷🏻♀️
@@kmbaker492 Mine did, but with the very important note that I was an adult!!
That's the thing, talking about your intimate sex life to a bunch of 14 -15 year olds and asking them their favourite sex position and how they lost their virginity is not being the loser aunt it is being a creep and it is incredibly predatory.
Cool, cool, valid point, but aren't the said kids to blame for consuming material that's not age appropriate, at all? I mean, it's not like she's that creep from the movies who trolls around the neighborhood asking children if they want candy and then snatches them up in the unmarked van with no windows... it's the internet... the risks are implied and assumed literally on any site. I don't know.. maybe it's the fact that I'm not American and wasn't raised with the celebrity bug, was taught common sense and the difference between real and virtual, good and bad... that sort of "nonsense" they don't use on the kids anymore.
I’m a teacher and I can see some parallels in the parasocial relationships and the relationship between myself and my students. I teach middle school aged kids (11-14) and they can struggle with the boundaries between myself (late 20s) and them. I care about my students and like to hear about their lives but I am not their friend. I have had students upset when I tell them this, particularly when I was a new teacher. Teens don’t seem to understand that it is weird if a 20 something wants to hang out with you and that it crosses a lot of boundaries!
fifth grade teacher, i agree!
I feel exactly the same way as a teacher. I've had kids ask me for social media and I've had to explain to them that it would be very inappropriate. They ask questions about my personal life that I don't want to share and a lot of the times they ask "why, its not a big deal" but to me it is a big deal because they are my students, not friends. I don't mind talking to them about stuff like hobbies and interests, and if they want to talk about personal stuff and overshare then that is their choice, but I would never ask them these things.
I feel like that's a super good analogy. You care about your students you want them to be happy. But, you're not their friend.
This, absolutely. As I was listening it sounded a lot like the relationship between teacher/students. The responsibility is on the Adult to set the boundaries because kids just don't understand. Especially coming from a home where they don't get attention, or where healthy boundaries aren't modelled very well, it's easy for a kid to get attached to a teacher.
Growing up in the 2010s was going from thinking the 20something Spencer’s Gifts employee who wanted to hang out with two ninth grade girls outside his job was so cool and had a great job and sweet tattoos and was so funny and relatable even as an adult, to being in 11th grade and finding him strange and immature- but even then. We were still so clearly obviously children that I remember one of the reasons we stopped hanging out with this adult man, was he got a terribly drawn deviantart furry tattoo for abysmally cheap, and that was so uncool to both of us it was the final straw.
And I look back on that and I’m so glad that _as far as I know,_ nothing ever escalated. But I know for a fact he and my friend had discussed them dating when she turned 18.
I lost contact w this friend a while ago so idk how she remembers this, but I hope the danger never escalated further for her the times I wasn’t there :/
I’m a school counselor, and I completely hear you about including this conversation in the curriculum. One of my go-to questions I ask students is, “what are the online rules in your house?” It helps me see what precautions are in place at home and what gaps they may need help with. At the end of the day, parents make the rules, and I’m hopeful I can encourage my students to be critical thinkers and good decision makers!
I think creators can be friendly with their fans, but I don’t think creators with a very young fan base can really interact as friends. Like it’s very strange to imagine that any adult would be making friends with literal children and talking to them like they’re people who could understand any issues an adult would have. And like they bring up in the video, there is a power dynamic there. It’s hard to imagine a normal friendship forming between a creator and a fan who has already felt like they know this creator. Like children especially have a tendency to idolize people they admire and I think that it can so easily be abused by someone in power.
Like this whole situation is especially distressing to see since Colleen herself is a mother and I can’t imagine her wanting her children having this kind of relationship with some other adult.
Exactly! If you're an adult and you're getting your emotional needs met through minors, it's time to reevaluate your life and find a therapist.
Exactly! The problem isn't about a creator and a fan it's about the age of both parties!!
holy crap, i didn't know she has kids. that adds a whole 'nother layer of "she HAS to know what she's doing and how not okay this is"
@@Aiden-V2.0 Her kids are why I started not liking her. That was before I knew about Adam or any of that.
She was in active *early* labor with her twins which was a high risk pregnancy. One twin was already struggling before labor started.
Colleen decided she needed the quirky girl footage and spent time curling her hair before heading to the hospital.
Then when she got there the doctors had her in for an emergency c-section within minutes of her arrival which she later says she wasn't really taking it seriously until then.
That was the moment I realized she's dangerously narcissistic. This new info is no surprise to me, whatsoever.
so true
We love an emotionally mature queen, Cristine
yeah, that's what people used to write to Colleen, until she got herself a big mouthed enemy online, and now they all jumped ships and joined the angry mob 😅
@@m0t0b33lol are you saying Colleen is in the right?😂
@@AmandaJ__ how did you get to that conclusion? I was saying that most people who go around calling their favorite celebs or content creators "queen" are the ones who raise said celeb on a pedestal, and at the slightest turbulence with "receipts" cause you can't call that proof, they change camps and start chanting the same thing the main accuser does... kinda blindly might I add. It's not just about Colleen, take a gander at ALL the fandoms, including Cristine's. There are quite a few nuts who take things a bit too far with their infatuations and they're called "simps", and take pride in the fact that they "stan" or "are obsessed" with this or that. Those are the ones who join anything just to feel like they belong, and yet the whole blame is placed on the celeb alone. I call BS. The Colleen case is the most recent one that's been revived after 3 years of silence. Years that could've been used to actually take legal measures if it were the case and the many felonies she was accused of( on social media), are actually true. Those years could've also been used to make sure that she didn't "hurt" more people if she were all that guilty. Again, I smell BS.
@@m0t0b33 To be fair, I read your first comment as positive towards Colleen too. It was kinda vague. Colleen is 100% in the wrong here, especially based on her "apology" where she said she would take accountability and admitted to some of it and in the next second blamed it on toxic lies lol. There definitely need to be legal measures to make sure she never does any of this again.
@@thespankmyfrank like what measures exactly?
I feel online parasocial relationships are like getting to know a character in a book. It's a one way relationship with someone who doesn't even exist. The time I've spent with Harry Potter via pages in books has been meaningful and impactful and is very real and valid. I have spent countless hours with him, sharing thoughts and feelings, being inside of his head and the thoughts I've had while reading changed me as a person, I laughed, I cried, I grew. But Harry Potter is not a real person and the experience doesn't exists outside of text. Just like reading a book time spent in parasocial relationships is meaningful but there's no relationship there. If I saw my fav streamers irl I wouldn't even acknowledge them because like Harry Potter the person I spent time with is more of a persona then a person I know.
But an influencer IS a real person even if they have an online persona. That's precisely why it's inappropriate.
I think you're hitting it right on with the employee/employer dynamic and where responsibility lies, and I think that exactly is what a lot of people missed with the Try Guys drama.
So many people were angry because they felt betrayed by someone who painted themselves a certain way, which is absolutely valid, but enough people ignored the employee/employer dynamic, which is alarming. And it happened both with people who thought the situation was stupid and overblown, as well as people who were outraged about the situation.
I experienced a similar situation to the colleen stuff with another youtuber (onision) when i was in my early teens. At the time i thought it was so cool that this person i admired wanted to interact with me, but looking back as an adult, the way this grown man was talking to me was extremely inappropriate. I know there were several fans who were heavily exploited (sexually) by him, some in real life. There are definitely parasocial relationships that can be positive (cristine being a great example) but the negative side to it is scary.
It's also different when both side acknowledge the imabalance and one sidedness of a parasocial relationship. I am an adult who has the maturity ro know that cristine doesn't know me, and that what we see of her is just a tiny bit of her life, carefully presented to us. But when content creators go on to tell how their fans are their family etc... (who will then feel compelled to buy thekr products and merch etc) that's just exploitation...
I'm sorry that happened to you! 🫂 I hope you are ok. Onision was the worse and that whole saga made me very upset especially his attitude and fake justifications. Ppl around him at the time were negatively affected.
@@Freaky0Ninayes 100% and it’s even worse when the fans are kids who maybe don’t understand power dynamics in the same way adults do. Making them way easier to manipulate.
ive noticed thats such a key thing, an adult creator convincing the minors that theyre "cool enough" for the attention the adult is giving them...its a classic predator move and looking at the texts. its really obvious but kids dont see that. I'm so sorry youve been hurt like this, nobody caught up in this deserves the kind of confusion and pain it brings
this happens with celebrities too rock stars groupies etc
I agree with Cristine that young people (and the rest of us) need media literacy education to deal with this kind of issues. Fascinating talk you two!
Wow Cristine's hair is extra pretty today!
It does have an extra glow to it today :)
So agree!
She's so pretty!
I thought the same thing! It looks extra good today!!
I think she dyed it darker. 😮 I agree, I love it!
My favorite parasocial relationship is when ben tells the chickpeas he hates us
can confirm. mine is when he beats everyone at fall guys.
What ben said “I think a lot of youtubers use their audience to fill a hole in their lives” is so true. I’ve always thought this and I don’t like the thought of youtubers using their audience as “entertainment”.
Thank you for posting this, i’m so glad this is being talked about
I'm a tech reviewer 😂 so since Ben brought it up, I do have a community of fans on discord and Patreon, but we most definitely keep the conversation pretty much about tech. I also used to reply to fan mail etc. I used to be a lot more transparent online but people crossed boundaries and stalking/harassment occurred. It freaked me out. I quickly learned the term parasocial after that and cut a lot of topics from my communication online. It's definitely a learned experience, none of us TH-camrs were ever taught this, especially in our generation when the only communication we had growin up was with people we knew in real life. I enjoyed your perspective ❤
I think what’s important is also teaching PARENTS how to handle situations like this with their kids. Most of these teenager’s parents KNEW about the group chat and were the ones taking them to these live shows.
When I think about situations like the one Christine described, I always think back to that video of those kids staking out a TH-camrs house and their parent getting mad when the TH-camr didn’t want to give them their autograph. Like, parents also need to be taught boundaries.
its a fine line to walk though. Many of them didnt know/see because they trusted Colleen to set the boundary. I cant imagine what was going through the heads of the parents at the live shows who were 100% ok with it though... but you run into the issue of "you cant trust people online so let me monitor everything youre doing there" where the PARENT is now overstepping a boundary of their growing child who possibly needs more independent/privacy. Creators like Colleen just make it so much harder and is the reason so many parents are overprotective...this whole thing is a cautionary tale
@@rainestar82 It definitely is a cautionary tale. I think the parents themselves don't have a grasp on appropriate boundaries themselves. I see so much of myself in this whole situation. I have vivid memories of my mom and aunt telling me "he likes you" about a 30 year old man when I was 15. Teaching appropriate/inappropriate behavior online in school is a good idea, but it also needs to be taught in the home.
Nothing like some Cristine and Ben to get me through a slow Tuesday ❤
I think something that contributes to the problem is that parents aren’t well versed enough in online relationships to be able to have preventative conversations with their kids. We need to have the same sort of open dialogue we have when teaching children to be cautious of other adults or strangers. Obviously the responsibility is always in the hands of the person with power but parents need to understand what their kids are exposed to online. As a millennial parent the nuances of young people being online is something I find incredibly daunting to navigate in the future!
🎯 this is spot on. I'm not a parent, but I'm also a millennial who grew up with the "internet bad" mindset & it was the wild west back then. I'm glad nothing terrible ever happened to me or my friends.
I worry about this a lot. I remember being naive online myself as a child back when internet was much less tailored, I remember taking my cousin out to a local playground a few years back. How the kids immediately flocked to me because I was a young, cool looking woman, so the felt immediately less threatened and themselves started suggesting coming over to my house (sic!) , and that random day I had to really grow up (I was around 18-19) and gather these little strangers and let them know that adults who mean you ill can look like anyone and how to be careful.
I fully believe that parents do not properly have chats with their children about boundaries to have with adults. I'm not trying to blame victims here, but if I was a creep on the playground - I could've done anything with these little kids. They invited themselves to my house! I also had kids walking into my flat because they saw cute cats inside... It horrifies me to realise how common this is.
So glad you guys are having this conversation, you have the perspective of famous content creators but are still in touch with reality and even have academic/professional experience that helps you form really nuanced viewpoints! So many TH-camrs say "it wasn't my intention to hurt anyone" but they need to go beyond that and focus on how their actions can impact their young impressionable fans. Y'all are the best!
I think creators and fans can be friendly towards each other, but not friends. If the parasocial dynamic is not present anymore, e.g. the fan and creator build a relationship outside of the context of the creator's occupation, then sure, a friendship can form.
Agreed. Both the content creator and the fan would need to see the other person as just a normal person for there to be any chance of a friendship forming. People can be friendly regardless of how they actually feel about them. Abuse of power comes from one party willing to do things they wouldn't normally do for attention from the creator who they see as better than them and the creator requesting things they wouldn't normally request from people that they see every day essentially abusing the power dynamic which can be found at any age, but can really be abused if the fans are young.
I'm actually thankful my mom constantly told me as a kid that "those Korean men don't even know I exist" 😭 like, it broke my heart but she was right & it saved me from turning for the worst
This is something I needed to hear, not in the form of viewer and content creator, but in the form of looking at it from a manager and employee perspective. I have a tendency to want to be able to help my employees, but it is draining, and led to a situation at work that was less than appealing to me, but watching this I wish my own manager had explained it more plainly like you two did in this podcast about setting those boundaries and power balances ahead of time. Thank you for helping me adjust my perspective, this was insightful to learn from you.
And to think I’d ever see Ben and Cristine talk about the situation… now hearing the points the Ben and Cris make, creators and even everyday people need to be held accountable for their actions.
As a teacher who is very conscious about my position of power and duty of care I’ve always talked about power dynamics with my students but never considered this specific type of relationship. This was a great conversation and such a good take away from a seriously dangerous situation.
I really appreciated both of Cristine and Ben's thoughts on this, especially when talking about the power dynamic aspect. That is the key point many, many, many other videos I have seen discussing this topic have missed. Creators should and do have a responsibility to understand and act accordingly with their fans due to this power dynamic.
In the near future, I wouldn't be surprised if in the terms of service agreement that you accept to join these different social media platforms if there is a new clause about creators being responsible for how they interact with fans so that the platform can't be liable.
As someone who did teach young children, I had to set a boundary line with them because I'm their tutor, not their friend. Yes, I was friendly with them, but I also had to be strict and be an authoritative figure to get their homework done. I will say that the school I taught at did teach kids about the internet and how to navigate it with a parent. I just wished they talked about their relationships with online creators because a majority of them admitted to watching Andrew Tate and I had to be the one to explain that he's not a good role model. It's only going to get worse if nobody steps up against content creators who take advantage of their young audience.
As a therapist in Ontario I appreciate this conversation. It’s one I have with my clients (preteen/teens and their parents) I find that developmentally it’s important to know youths are forming relationships and that’s a priority to identity formation and social media is now impacting this development. We are trained to discuss power dynamics, transference and counter transference which I agree should be taught to everyone who finds themselves in a role of power. And at least a couple times in someone’s life they will be in a position of power (work, home, relationship, school etc) it’s important to learn how power dynamics can be used for good and be helpful but also need to learn when it turns harmful and dangerous. Something to think about and an ongoing conversation that is necessary as technology and online relationships become more embedded in our lives. There are consequences and it could be harmful (see Amanda Todd or human trafficking instances) - it’s very easy and anyone can fall into these weird dynamics and be harmed without having to leave their house. We as adults have a responsibility to protect , prevent and educate to stop harm. If someone is reading this and is in a precarious situation please contact someone for help.
When I briefly got to speak with Cristine in Raleigh recently, she actually did a great job of having clear boundaries while engaging. I felt comfortable saying that her encouragement for education helped me get to university (in Canada even) but understood that this was someone I don’t personally know. I appreciated how even after she asked about my studies, it felt clear that there was no personal relationship but I was still acknowledged for being a fan.
The stuff cris said about not being equipped with therapy skills to help with and deal with fans problems was such a good point
+
My favourite parasocial relationship moment was when Ben said "fuck you" to me on stream one time 😂
I loved this week pod, I liked the way you approached this subject and raised very interesting points!
I feel like the litmus test for the creator should be “if you wouldn’t ask a fan this question in front of your or their spouse/partner/parents, in some way it crosses a line.
I feel like Cristine has (at least publicly) avoided the brunt of this because she was a bit older when she started and was faceless for most of the on-ramp of her TH-cam career.
Colleen is older than Cristine.
@RinsDesk Colleen was younger when she started her career on TH-cam (21) than Christine was when she started her career (25), which I think is what the original commenter meant. However, I don't think age is an excuse for this behavior and Colleen definitely should have known better
@@swampelf21 and 25 have quite a bit of difference in real life experience. Also how old was Cristine when she started showing her face? That's the point I'd compare age wise, and while age is definitely not an excuse (there's no excuse for grooming children), it's maybe an explanation on the lack of understanding of what the relationship with her (Colleen) fans, especially kids, should look like and what boundaries it should have.
I honestly think its because Cristine and Ben both know how to set boundaries respectfully but firmly and basically always act with awareness of their influence on fans but they don't compromise their own needs to do so. Like there are times when fans are like "I wanna see this thing/content" and Cris is just "guys I get that but its not possible right now" or something. Just overall theyre better adjusted and I know KIDS who have great sense of boundaries, Colleen unfortunately didnt and thats where it broke down
Another one would be, if i weren't a creator, in a position of power, would i have any business talking to a person of this age? As a 35yo, i have no reason to be talking to a literal *child* that is *half my age*, in public or private. That's doesn't change when i become a creator.
Colleen strikes me as someone who is extremely immature and hasn’t learned social cues in life, always seeing admiration from everyone. She can’t stand it if someone doesn’t like her. This doesn’t excuse her behavior at all, just something I’ve noticed. Unfortunately young fans are the easiest to get to admire you. I don’t think you can be true friends because of the power dynamic like Cristine said.
I take she defending herself overall as painted not this horrible person who wanted to hurt kids but whether she didn't realize her behaviour was wrong the way been covering up now & doesn't seem to care it's hard to believe.
edit pardon my english
I saw talk a while ago about trauma dumping, both in general and also streamers talking about how uncomfortable it can be. In regards to streamers, i think most people will feel bad for the person who trauma dumps, but what can they really offer other than a “im sorry you are going through that” ive also seen streamers explicitly ask their followers to not trauma dump to them because that can cause anxiety for them and that is 100% okay. In regards to say friend to friend, i have a system with my friend where we ask if they are in a good mental space to talk about those hard things. if not, no harm done we move on. its about respecting the other person’s emotions too
Sure they can.... Just shouldn't be in a group chat full of minors sending n*des and talking about highly inappropriate subjects lol. Love y'all 💜
It's really that simple. If I ever get an interaction with someone that young my natural reaction will be responding in the most professional way. It truly frightens me that some people just don't have that innate barrier, like really without even thinking about it. It's concerning at the very least.
A lot of creators ended up marrying a fan they randomly talked to but the success stories of dating/being friends with fans is super low. Usually it’s weird and there’s power imbalance combined with obsessed fans.
This just triggered Onision flashbacks
@@perryrhinitisreal
Yeah, it can work out... but more often than not...
Yeah Onision, was a PoS also I got blocked during that drama hahaha. Old YT, you never know with ppl online. But I want actual examples of married to fans?
I know that Drew Gooden met his wife, Amanda through vine, but I think he was still a very small creator and they seem like a good fit for each other, so I think it depends on the creator. Marrying a fan when you have 200 subscribers vs. 20 million is very different. He has a video on his channel where he talks about it if you’re curious
Glad they covered this topic! Not just because it’s hot tea at the moment but because they don’t stand by inappropriate parasocial relationships with minors and or fans of any age.
This was a really interesting watch. As a smaller creator who's just started going full time with TH-cam, I've made a Patreon Only Discord and this conversation was super insightful that maybe I've shared a *bit* too much with some of the people on it...
I naturally shared a lot with my moderators who came in super early, are all 20+ years old and because we sort of grew the channel together it feels different there... but some of the fans... yeah I've made overshared when I've been in the middle of an anxiety attack or something, so now I can work on NOT coming near my discord when I'm feeling like that, even though everyone in it is 18+ you're right, it's still weird.
Very insightful because sometimes it doesn't come easy and those lines arent as clear cut. Thanks for the discussions, I've taken several notes!
I’m only 12 minutes in but this is a topic I’ve thought about a lot. In fandoms there’s a built in commonality. If I were to meet Cristine and she didn’t go into sock mode, it’s pretty much guaranteed we’re going to talk about nails. True crime, comedy sketches, food, history, art… whatever genre, regardless of differences in age, ethnicity, economic status ect.,. you have common ground.
I’m disabled & mostly homebound, so I have far too much time to watch TH-cam. I have a LOT of people I follow & feel like I know. But I’m very aware I don’t know them.
I once joked with a creator that i was terrified to run into her at a random coffee shop or something because I might forget I don’t know her, run up & hug her like an old friend-& she’d have no idea who I am. I think that’s a very common feeling.
I’m 45. There’s a creator who is my age. In addition to watching his videos i also watch a weekly interactive livestream. We met in person at a convention for his genre. We clicked, I thought, but I told myself it was one sided.
On the next livestream he saw my name & told everyone about our meeting. For the last year we’ve had chatted frequently in the livestream, emailed occasionally & he’s even offered to help me with my own little newbie channel in the genre.
Still, I’m hesitant to call him a friend. On the livestream he once responded to me saying he wished my husband & I lived closer so we could go get a beer. I feel the same, but since we don’t, I don’t feel like “friend” is the appropriate term. I think we WOULD be friends if circumstances were a little different.
I don’t know what he is. I’m a fan & it would be weird to be a fan of a rl friend. I actually would love to get to know him better, but I’m sure every fan feels that. I do think he likes me personally.
I hope you’ll get to it, but I think it’s also important to note that a lot of creators are lonely & the fan base really is a support system.
I’m thinking of one woman who said that the parasocial relationship was reversed & she was the one imagining us as her friends or family while we turn her off at the end of the video & go about our lives without thinking of her until the next alert, while she’s thinking of us the whole time. But still that “you guys” is a collective, not an individual.
Most creators are seeking attention for one reason or another. Some people find an unhealthy amount of validation from fans. And fans can be abusive as well. The whole dynamic is strange. And new. I’m sure it’s keeping plenty of sociology & psych students busy.
There’s more interpersonal interaction between social media creators & fans than there is with other types of celebrity. It creates a sense of connection & who’s really to say if that is false or genuine?
There’s a person often in the livestream I mentioned who is a little off. They are repetitive & get hurt or angry when not mentioned by name by the creator. They are going to this year’s convention (I’m not) and have asked if the two people on the livestream will be there, even after being told yes. They ask 3-4 times for the last few livestreams.
It felt odd & I looked up the uniquely spelled name, and found someone with obvious delusions. A lot of “there’s a conspiracy against me” stuff that is almost certainly indicative of schizophrenia.
My husband lives with paranoid schizophrenia (& ptsd, & hyper vigilance). Schizophrenics are 600x more likely to be victims of a crime than perpetrators. Mentally ill does NOT mean dangerous. But, delusions can make people unpredictable & I wrote the creator, letting him know & asking if he had enough security at the convention. I haven’t heard back.
It’s probably weird to have a fan warning you about another fan. But I was concerned. All of these creators are putting themselves out in the world where they are vulnerable and exposed to the best and the worst people.
I’m very into true crime, and that’s an audience with built in risk. There are many reasons to follow tc, and unfortunately that includes people who fantasize about committing crimes & even some who have.
Cristine meets a fan, she can assume they like nail art or polish. Tc creators can only assume there’s a darker streak in the personality and an interest in crime.
Despite that creepiness, I’ve recently started a tc channel. I only have a handful of followers but I get really excited when I have a comment or question from someone. It’s so strange that someone I’ve never met is watching me, has invested enough time in me to make a comment. I have no idea what it’s like for people with thousands of followers but right now I get a positive comment & want to meet up for coffee. I don’t have anyone irl who shares my interests, and that’s part of why I started my channel. But I know I have to keep a boundary up.
There has to be a wall. Especially for me. When you have a partner who has delusions of people plotting against him, you can’t invite internet strangers into your personal life. Especially those well versed in crime.
Talking to a viewer is exiting for me, but it has to stay online. Maybe I’d be more open if he didn’t have to live in a constant state of fight/flight/freeze/fawn. But, it definitely keeps me strict with my boundaries.
I don’t know if my channel will last or grow. Right now I just really appreciate every view & I feel curios about who that person is as an individual. They matter to me. If there were millions it would probably be harder to think of people as individuals.
Anyway, I’m happy to see this topic. I’m very curious about this mostly as a fan, but also from the creator side.
I like this podcast episode because you’re talking about what the inappropriate relationship of grooming is, rather than trying to clown or add fuel to the fire. Good vid
good discussion without adding fuel to any so called gossip trains passing thru.
I used to watch Colleen vlogs literally everyday, and when this developed I was extreamly confused and did not know what to think. I still am, so this reasonable talk was very helpfull. thanks guys! 💖
I really appreciate this discussion. I hope a lot of people see this, within and outside of your typical fanbase. Creators, teens, whomever needs to hear it. And now the related hill I will die on: EVERY PERSON SHOULD HAVE A THERAPIST AT ONE POINT IN THEIR LIFE.
One interesting topic they didn’t really touch on is the phenomenon of the streamer-chat relationship, which is distinct from the generic creator-fan dynamic. Streamers are live, and respond in real time to people in chat. At the same time, what I think really sets the dynamic apart is that in some ways, streamers don’t form a relationship with individuals, but rather “chat” as a whole, as if the hundreds or thousands of people are personified as a single entity. In that way, an individual can form a parasocial relationship with a streamer, while the streamer can actually form a parasocial relationship with chat, which is not really reciprocal. Streamers will not reciprocate a close bond with a viewer, but chat and it’s members cannot actually meaningfully reciprocate the bond that the streamer feels with them, because of the multidimensional nature of what chat is.
Something interesting I’ve seen in the past decade are fans that feel like they know a creator and speak on their behalf. Like commenting ‘Christine would hate this’, or ‘this is what Christine would think of that’, as if they know the creator in real life.
Or fans that spread hate in a creators or brands name- like posting unsolicited holo taco praise on another nail polish brands page or commenting ‘it’s not holo taco so it’s garbage’.
Honestly I’m usually more of a lurker these days cause I just can’t stand the toxic people that pop up in every fandom.
My butterfly nails were recreated in a video here a few years ago and I got messages asking me if I got HT coupons or if I talked with cristine now. Nope, I didn’t even know until the video came out. Just cause I was mentioned doesn’t mean I’m special or entitled to more of Christine’s time or attention- just that my nails were awesome that day. 😊
Thinking about these different dynamics it makes me think about Selena Quintanilla who was M*rd*red by the head of her fan club and how these power dynamics have always been around with famous people and fans but how we’re only talking about it now that there’s more options for direct communication between fans and the people they are fans of
I love it when y’all talk about the more technical/behind the scenes/psychological parts of doing TH-cam, media literacy for the win truly
Cristine said what I have been feeling. Can you be friends with a “normie” as an influencer? Of course. It is a normal thing. But age is a very very very important factor here. I am 35, I can see the red flags if there are any, so if an influencer I follow wants to be friends I am mentally equipped to handle that. But for a child, that is the best thing that has happened to them. I remember as a 14 year old getting a smile from my fav singer in a concert had convinced me that we are friends. If the same thing happens to me now, I will smile back and move on. That’s what has been so disturbing about the whole Colleen situation. She was a fully grown adult, talking about private stuff to an unknown child online. Sorry children. 😑😑I barely ever followed her and some of the things I am seeing is shocking.
I agree with all of your points. Millennials were the first to really experience making money off of being an Internet personality. However, boundaries have been slowly established over the years. She is in her mid 30s. She never once saw another creator and thought “oh man. Maybe I shouldn’t be doing that anymore?” Even if you aren’t a good person, a good business person knows that you have to change with the times. The fact she ignored her PR team on how to deal with this very serious situation speaks VOLUMES.
why aren't more people capable of discussing something serious and important in this manner
They view the other person as the problem instead of tackling the problem together with that person. Being defensive and offensive is not good for communication.
I think continuing to support her after her “apology” video is actually disgusting. That video was horrific and such a terrible way to address the situation. She is so out of touch with reality, and so are the people who continue to forgive and support her.
She really shouldn't have made that song, or she'd never have gone viral, and people who didn't care or didn't already follow her wouldn't have been drawn in. And without background context, it absolutely is a distasteful response.
But this is not the first time she has apologized for this. She's been through it in complete detail already, and those videos are on her channel from back when the same boy came out about it the first time. I'm not saying you should support her or look past her actions, I'm honestly just getting so annoyed at how confidently hateful people can be when they are so clearly ignorant on the topic. If 2023 is the first time you are hearing about this, and your source of information is other youtubers, reddit, or news commentary, then you are at best partially informed, and at worst misinformed.
@kristinhoward3665 but she didn't even really apologize then. And the actions continued So even if it had been a genuine apology, it's irrelevant
@@mckinneypassios4273 She did, she was just quite defensive as well. I really don't agree with her actions at all. But what actions continued? All of the substantiated claims were in the past. If it comes out her current behavior still involves being inappropriate with minors, my tune will change completely.
@@kristinhoward3665She didn't leave these groupchats (with minors) she was in until last week.
@@kristinhoward3665it doesn’t matter if it was in the past.. it still happened and it’s disgusting.
Conclusion: Cristine's mission in life is to protect us from Tom Cruise
Possibly the healthiest discussion I’ve seen about this so far!!
This is such an important conversation that needed to be heard! thank you for doing this rather than just rehashing all the drama like every other TH-camr right now.
All I can think of is how sorry I feel for her kids and her husband. I sincerely loved her vlog videos and pushed aside any red flags I thought I perceived/imagined. I feel like I blinded myself by not looking what was happening behind the scenes and I feel terrible about it. It honestly sucks that someone you looked up to isn't who you thought they were.
I've been "watching" her when she went through her 1st pregnancy and her twin pregnancy and while I wasn't watching her enough to pick up on major red flags one thing I didn't like is when she dismissed her husband's feelings after she had her twins. He had expressed he thought her had some sort of postpartum depression and she scoffed at him, I thought it was odd and kind of rude and everyone pointed it out while other die hard fans defended her reaction. I didn't form enough of a fan bond (for the lack of a better term) to feel blind sided but it is still a bummer. Like other than that one incident, I never thought she was capable of something like this but maybe that's how good she was at covering it up
*He had postpartum depression
(This is an edit to my comment TH-cam was wigging out on me and wouldn't let me edit my original comment)
Colleen isn’t even a good example for this really as she wasn’t trying to be “besties” with her fans. She sent them nudes (while at least one fan was underage), inquired about their favourite sex positions (while they were underage) and asked them about their virginity. There’s so many other issues, she wasn’t an ignorant TH-camr who just didn’t know better. This was predatory behaviour. I feel like it’s not an issue for other creators IF fans are age appropriate, have common ground, shared values and boundaries are in place to ensure both parties and the friendship are protected.
Miranda Sings according to colleen was based on a 16 year old girl, who was “weird” and couldn’t sing. And she has also mentioned Miranda has characteristics of her classmates that SHE thought weren’t good enough, according to her standards.
Also characteristics from her disabled brother. Idk she changes the story a lot but weirdly I think it's all true. Just that the character changed a lot over the years.
It definitely has changed and evolved. I haven't watched her in a year or two, and I haven't followed this drama at all, but I seem to recall her saying that she created the character in University to vent about classmates who thought they were better than they were.
@@chiron.equine yes! Shes also said this. She's also said it was to make fun of people on TH-cam who think they're good singers and aren't. Weirdly, I think it's true.
the irony of Miranda being created to mock teenager singers who "thought they were good when they werent" as a way to take them down a peg...Colleen drank her own koolaid with the response song, took herself WAY too seriously because she actually bothered to write/compose a scripted song. the lack of self awareness was stunning
Ludwig and Bo Burnham are commendable for having a clear line between audience - creator.
I had an instructor in college try to befriend me. I wasn’t underage but there was a power dynamic, and I was easily emotionally manipulated. I didn’t fully grasp what he was doing until years later. He flipped on me as soon as I rejected his advances. He wanted to be my only friend and the only person I would confide in. One day I said eff that and had to get another staff member involved so he wouldn’t try to sabotage my grade in the class.
26:50 and this is a big part of the issue imho. Seen so many people saying "Mirandas a fictional character, theres no harm" and that idea of "selling an object (fictional character/comedy)" COULD be at play...except now its clear that Miranda is essentially a mask Colleen was wearing, intentionally or otherwise. The brand has been her the entire time and if it was JUST about a fictional character and their story with no inappropriate content, that would be one thing. But even if she hadnt interacted with her fans, the content she was "selling" them was STILL inappropriate for their ages. And you cant play the "its just fiction" card when both in the fiction AND in real life, many boundaries were crossed by the one person with all the power.
This was such an interesting discussion. Thank you so much. My heart broke when you discussed fans reaching out for monetary help or trauma dumping. puuuuffff. I can not imagine how that feels. I hope there is a way for you not to see those kinds of messages.
Everything here was really well said. I'm glad to see you touch on the topic of fans trauma dumping too. The people we admire are NOT the people to unload your trauma on. I always appreciate when I see people saying things like, "hey I wanted you to know that you got me through some dark times and I'm grateful" and are able to leave it at that; I don't think there is anything wrong with sending a message like this. But exposing creators/actors/musicians to to the full extent your own personal trauma is just so unfair. The average person isn't equipped to hear about the awful things that go on in the world on the regular. That's what therapy is for. Please fam, reach out to someone who is able to help you, because your favs just aren't it.
The Tom Cruise example is taking me out, because I would be worried for anyone of any age who Tom Cruise is trying to befriend, because what if he’s trying to recruit them to scientology???
37:45 hi Ben and Cristine, I am a Psychologist myself and I really liked your take on this. You are absolutely correct that there are risks to the other person and to yourself in opening that Pandora’s box into responding to your subscribers in that way. One of the reasons I’ve gravitated towards your content and stayed so long is that you and Ben both appear to have a very educated and ethical approach to content creation. Those boundaries are so important. Because of my scope of work, I have stayed off the internet despite wanting to be a content creator for a long time, as I feel like I know all of the limitations and the ways that it could go wrong and don’t feel ready yet navigate those complexities. Love from Sask! You represent Canada so well on this platform.
Pointing out the basis of your common ground is so important, so I love this episode!
If you watch a creator who loves film, you might become friends discussing the mutual interest. But if your only common ground is your admiration for another person, that person can’t reciprocate because your characteristic is tied to THEM and barely has anything to do with you!
such an interesting if not depressing topic. friendship is certainly possible assuming boundaries exist and depending on the content like Ben said about the whole "cult of personality" thing where the entire base of the relationship is about how amazing that celebrity type person is.
i also think the topic at the end is so important. i think i remember Dan and Phil talking about how fan letters ended up getting really inappropriate and essentially asking them to be their therapist and the toll it took on them. i'm 33 so on one hand its like i get these teenagers are living in unsafe situations or what have you so they reach out to youtubers or musicians but at the end of the day y'all are people too and shouldn't be asked to carry that weight anymore than that 16year old should. that's why therapists exist.
it's a tricky subject for sure, and i'm glad y'all are talking about it.
i'll be honest i'm the one you replaced my Vacation Collection for after losing it in a disaster, and while that meant the world to me to feel cared for by *someone* out there- Julien reached out in a similar way- it would be so inappropriate to continue reaching out on either of our ends thinking that it meant something other than a kind gesture considering how much of a power imbalance is there and how much i'm struggling. I think this topic needs to come up more so folks remember that no matter what, youtuber, streamer, big time musician, people are still people with all our own issues and weights to carry. can't help everyone and when you have hundreds, thousands, or millions of people reaching out asking for help and trauma dumping i can't imagine that weight knowing you can't help them.
thank you for the lovely and continually appropriate para-social holo madness where i get to escape my reality even if for a minute. that's all the help i need from y'all~✌️🐱
This is my first time watching a full pod of yours. I likeee.
honestly this is part of the reason i am becoming a teacher because i want to help students not only learn how to engage with media intelligently but also how to engage on social media and the internet safely as a young child online i didn’t have these resources to protect and it’s honestly a miracle i didn’t engage in dangerous circles online
So, I can only assume it is Tom Cruise asking Ben for feet pics.
I just got my final uni results and I passed 🎉🎉🎉
That is really awesome, congratulations on your hard work paying off. :)
LetsGOOOOO proud of u
Congrats!!!
I’m not a regular watcher, I don’t know why, I love these two. Any video I have seen of the podcast has always given me really wholesome protective kind and thoughtful vibes. Two very good people for sure!
My friend is a cosplayer and a lot of people have a parasocial relationship with her who she has meet briefly at conventions or interact with her online. Like there have been people who think they are alot closer then they are.
This reminds me of a few years ago, someone who was part of a larger TH-cam based entertainment company was found to have basically been grooming young girls (usually around 17-20, he was nearly 40). There were a bunch of people arguing about whether it was technically legal which grossed me out so much because that didn't matter. What mattered was an older person who had much younger people who idolised them capitalising on that to have relationships with them. I feel like celebrities automatically have some power over their fans, because those fans want to please them/make them happy, and if they're young or inexperienced or whatever, this could push them to do thinks they aren't comfortable with. I feel like if there is common ground between you and a celebrity beyond the celebrity themselves then yeah, there's no reason you couldn't strike up a conversation but you have to be entering it as equals, not as an idol and the person who idolizes them.
As someone who works behind the scenes with a content creator and seeing how easily parasocial people can get, it’s sad seeing someone
take advantage of that. This whole ordeal is so nasty. I’m pretty sure any normal content creator understands how to keep their distance and how to keep a healthy relationship between them and their fans.
I do think there can be a reasonable point where it is hard though. Most grow from nobodies first so at first everyone are kind of on equal level and you build relationships with people around you. Other creators, fans that become your mods etc. I think having a bit of difficulty finding the right level of interaction during growth spurts is reasonable. It's a different thing when you're big, by then you should have it figured out.
@@hernameispekka_Rebecca I understand that. But going by this context of Colleen she knows as a grown adult, you need to have boundaries. Especially if you know most of your fans are underage/young. None of what she did was normal or a part of her popularity growth.
@@Wtfsugoi Oh, 100%. My comment wasn't about her specifically, more about the general concept.
As a creator of a pretty small channel who is starting to get emails/DMs from fans on a relatively regular basis, this is something that i have become more and more aware of, and something that i have been thinking about. I think every creator personally has to choose what they are comfortable sharing with fans. I also have a pretty strong IRL friend group, a lot of whom don't even know my channel exists, and I have realised it's really important for me to maintain these friendships and keep them separate from my channel.
My friend and I were also talking about professionalism when it comes to other work relationships, for example, she is a speech therapist and she has a strict policy where she won't give therapy to her friends kids because it crosses a line for her. I kinda see my channel in that way, and really try to separate my friendships from my work/channel. Not all creators do that, but it's where i feel comfortable.
I think Jenna Marbles particularly was good at maintaining a wonderful fanbase while acknowledging the power dynamic/parasocial aspect, like I remember her saying "Like you guys see me all the time, but i dont actually know who you are" and when she had issues with stalkers, having those boundary really clearly. I think thats ultimately why she left TH-cam, to maintain her privacy and distance from the ever increasing social climate of oversharing with your audience.
Do you remember when we were told everything we do on the internet will be there forever?
I STILL CANT FIND MY MYSPACE.
didn't timberlake buy it, what did he do lol.
Cristine and Ben, thank you for talking about this! It is nice to hear from another long-time creator who has a mixture of ages in their fanbase about what is appropriate and what is not appropriate for a fan-creator or celebrity "relationship." I also like that for example in your discord, you have a support-resources channel that can make sure people can reach out for mental health help if needed. I've noticed that for some fans who are more likely to be preyed on are younger and also people who could be in a mental health crisis or have something stressful going on in their lives. This ofc does not apply to everyone, but you putting out resources for people to get help if they need it is incredibly important and I commend you for that.❤
Her "apology" is not even an apology but it irked me that she MONETIZED the video!!! She knew she'll be getting tons of views / traction/ comments and still took advantage of the situation and is getting even more money??!? Like WTf she has no shame
Yea it was awful 😂 however! The video was not monetized. There are no ads, so let’s be sure to not share misinformation.
I’m a teacher and I have told my students before that I’m not their friend I’m their teacher and if they ever have a teacher who is trying to be their friend outside of school immediately tell their parents/admin because of the power in balance that relationship holds. I’ll still listen and be there for my students but I make the boundaries clear of where our relationship ends. I feel like it’s the same for creators they need to be open and honest with their fans so this doesn’t happen
I'm so happy to listen to you guys, feel like there is a wholesome bubble of respect and jokes and ALSO feeling you are not my friend and just a kind person living your life on the other side of the world
We all know Cris used her platform to talk about the sailor moon coloring book incident, rightly so 🤣 it is a deeply personal and relevant topic that needed to be talked about 🤣
In all seriousness, I really enjoyed this weeks pod, I think it is very responsible to talk about this. I know it probably wasn't the most comfortable convo to have but it helps build more trust with your audience. It shows that you respect the relationship you have with fans and are conscious about where the lines are with them. Hopefully current and future youtubers can learn from this.
I loved your points. I do think part of it that was a little funny near the end is Christine basically passing along her social anxiety by recommending considering people's worst case scenario for doing something. There is a balance there for sure of not being taken advantage of, but also not shutting down connections
Thank you Ben and Cristine for tackling the issue with such nuance and understanding. I think a lot of people need to hear this and it's applicable in any type of online relationship too
Even without the fanbase being children, I think creators need to be very careful with creating actual friendships with fans because that power dynamic is always there and affects the relationship.
i feel like taylor swift is a good example of being ‘friends’ with fans especially before rep. she used to do secret sessions at her house and knew fan pages by name and she took the initiative to monetarily help sometimes. yet nothing bad was said since there was a clear boundary and she was never too involved. im not saying she didnt see them as equals but she was clearly aware these were FANS of her. i feel like semi personal interactions like this is cute but what coleen did is crazy. also what the fuck was that song. unhinged
It is such a weird time to be a fan of someone with the level of connection we are able to have these days, it's a complicated issue and I really appreciate this broader conversation. I think the clearest line in the sand is absolutely do not have personal relationships with underage fans, after that it definitely gets more difficult.
I really love how you both approach this topic with so much intelligence and straightforwardness. I have loved seeing all of the original TH-camrs since the beginning, but these allegations are quite troubling
there’s a very thick line in what’s considered appropriate to interact with fans, even if ur QuIrKy ✌️
So Seinfeld’s daughter was a big fan of Miranda. That’s the ONLY reason he knew who she was.
I think the power imbalance conversation also could be applied to musicians and their fans. During the 2000s there were a lot of bands who were "friends" with their fans and ultimately the fans came out later saying they had been groomed, assaulted, etc by those people. It can be exhilarating to have someone with "fame" talk to you as a friend but it is up to the "famous" person to not overstep boundaries and directly or indirectly use their power to get something from other people.
It’s easy for a creator to use a fan bc a fan will truly care about them, while the creator isn’t emotionally connected in the same way - making it easy to not care about the repercussions that may have on said fan :/
ok besides the main point of the episode, the fact that ben mentioned tom cruise so many times without thinking of the possibility of tom cruise trying to recruit him to join scientology at the end is rlly funny to me
I think this was such a great podcast and podcast idea. There’s so many people going over what happened with the colleen situation, but it’s nice to hear about it as an overall concept of what is and is not appropriate in fan interactions.
I love hearing you guys talk about this stuff because not only do I like your exchanges between each other but it also sheds light on this very real problem with boundaries and influencers. You guys always have great topics ❤️
Always look forward to the pod so much on a Tuesday! Thanks for the content guys 🫶
Me and Menchie are like totally besties~ Ya'll just have to trust me.
Menchie told me that we were besties. My heart is broken 🥺
As long as they’re all adults and there’s no manipulation going on then I don’t see the problem. If a famous person/creator meets a fan (the same age), they hit it off and become friends it’s cool. No problem. But minors? Instant red flag. 🚩Then using them, manipulating them, having s*xual coversations with them = illegal and wrong on all levels!