How is it that the NSA (specifically in Fort Meade) and Google (in Douglas County, Georgia) have been using graywater to cool some of *their* large-scale computing equipment *for a decade* , but the University of Toronto needs potable water for their purposes? It sounds to me like the problem is that the equipment they currently use for cooling is simply not designed to be used with anything but purified water. This seems more like a matter of, "it would take a lot of resources to move away from using potable water," as opposed to one of, "we can't cool computers with anything besides clean water." This isn't a technological limitation, it's a structural/financial one. Frankly, if sweating is an apt analogy for computer cooling, then why shouldn't we use ocean water where possible? Salt water has a specific heat capacity that's barely lower than that of fresh water, so its still a great coolant. There are entire industries built around applications for graywater and salt water - I see no reason why those couldn't be applied to data centres. I'd be interested to hear Animesh's explanation as to any actual *technological* limitations to solving this problem as opposed to an explanation for why *their specific system* requires potable water. If tap water still needs to be treated by the school (he explains that even drinking water isn't pure enough for their machinery), it seems like it's unnecessary to be using potable water in the first place.
Why is the water pumped back to the lake in a polluted state as shown at the end of this (13:00)? The video does a poor job of explaining why open loop water needs to be sourced. In short, this was quite superficial.
? you would need fresh/clean/treated water (re comment @ 8:42) for A.I.'s functioning/data centers? but it looks like there are cases where the water is not clean/potable, and even ocean/salt water is being used (though maybe not as efficiently since its heat capacity is less than fresh water)! i wonder how significant the difference in efficiency is in relation to how much more water would be used when using ocean water to cool for example.
The problem is probably less about efficiency and more about corrosion, salt water is typically avoided in liquid cooling of computer parts because of that, also its much more conductive so if there were a leak of some kind its much more likely to cause some kind of catostrphic failure.
It is a low-grade heat. There are some data centers hooked up to district heating. There are data centers in very hot places where only pools, showers, washing machines, and dishwashers need heated water and even part of that can be recovered by WWHR.
Interesting Video taking into account of it. Also I was today years old when I found out that video of the plant was used as the location of The Foundation for The Pretender in the 1990's, and a couple of other shows at the same time. Small World.
Part of it evaporates or is lost due to leaks and inefficiencies of the system during the pocess, so part of it does indeed disappear. Also, because this process uses clean freshwater, it is removed from the "pool" of water that can be used for human consumption - or for agriculture. Choosing a location for the necessary hardware in really important, to ensure that the competition for water with human uses does not occur. Another aspect you need to take into account is that dumping the hot water back into the natural water systems will have an impact on the temperature of the natural water bodies. It will cause thermal pollution.
If we're going to get serious about addressing water consumption then we need to look at agriculture and look to reduce our reliance on animals as a source of food.
We inherently have advantages over almost every country in the world: 1. We have 1/3 of the world 's fresh water. 2. We have long, cold winter, which can serve as free cooling system. When AI prevails and become more prominent in terms of affecting our daily life, I see Canada has a huge advantage.
It's not a swamp cooler.... it's a cooling tower. Water headers at the top of the tower shower water down (by gravity) over tubes which also contain water. The water in the tubes that are wetted by the tower comes in warm, leaves at a cooler temperature. Then that water is circulated down to a building mechanical room , where there is a mechanical chiller, which is a very large compressor system with a heat exchanger mounted to it. Freon on one side of a heat exchanger tube bundle chills a 3rd (major) circulating water system.... this water is piped off to various buildings where it will run to radiator-fan assemblies which then by their thermostat control systems air condition spaces within those buildings. The freon that picked up heat at the compressor dumps its heat to another heat exchanger connected to a 'return water' circuit going back up to the roof cooling tower.
@@9UaYXxB u r correct, however it cools through evaporation which is how a swamp cooler works. They have adapted that technology to cool a seperate water circuit. Its much more sophisticated than a swamp cool.
"I argue that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) shouldn't receive public funding. With plentiful digital media sources, we don't need a funded national broadcaster like when CBC was established. Concerns about CBC's potential political bias and the massive yearly billion-dollar funding that could benefit other public needs like healthcare or education also make me question its necessity in today's media landscape." - ChatGPT
If only we built Data centers in a place with cold water, cold temperatures, and abundant clean energy we could reduce its environmental impact. O wait, that’s right, nobody wants to invest in Canada 😂
This video did a poor job of explaining why it takes soooo much drinking water to run AI. I usually enjoy your show but this one was missing a lot of important facts regarding the cooling systems and drinking water connection. I hope the next episode is better.
True we do need to think about datacenter water usage. But all the water for cooling for servers still pales in comparison to the water needed to cool thermal (coal, natural gas) and nuclear power plants which are used everywhere. Those power plants all run using steam to drive mechanical turbines with temperatures far exceeding water boiling temp (100℃). Then it all requires massive backend cooling (in condensers) so that the steam can return back to water to complete the cycle. Get rid of those power plants and we'll have the water budget back again and then some. Furthermore, a large datacenter power requirements may be in the 25MW to 50MW (megawatt) range. But a single natural gas or coal power plant is many hundreds to a thousand megawatts in size. Nuclear power plants are in GW (gigawatt) range. Datacenters could also switch to using geo-thermal cooling which requires much less water since its so naturally cold in the ground with very high heat capacity because its the Earth's crust.
The cooling loop is closed. The heat gets transferred from the closed loop to an open loop that is evaporated to expel the heat from the closed loop in the cooling towers.
At this time 5 months after the video posted,, this only has 8.9k views. Clearly Google's AI does not approve of this video lol
How is it that the NSA (specifically in Fort Meade) and Google (in Douglas County, Georgia) have been using graywater to cool some of *their* large-scale computing equipment *for a decade* , but the University of Toronto needs potable water for their purposes? It sounds to me like the problem is that the equipment they currently use for cooling is simply not designed to be used with anything but purified water. This seems more like a matter of, "it would take a lot of resources to move away from using potable water," as opposed to one of, "we can't cool computers with anything besides clean water." This isn't a technological limitation, it's a structural/financial one.
Frankly, if sweating is an apt analogy for computer cooling, then why shouldn't we use ocean water where possible? Salt water has a specific heat capacity that's barely lower than that of fresh water, so its still a great coolant. There are entire industries built around applications for graywater and salt water - I see no reason why those couldn't be applied to data centres.
I'd be interested to hear Animesh's explanation as to any actual *technological* limitations to solving this problem as opposed to an explanation for why *their specific system* requires potable water. If tap water still needs to be treated by the school (he explains that even drinking water isn't pure enough for their machinery), it seems like it's unnecessary to be using potable water in the first place.
Thank you for posting and answering the questions other videos left me with.
Why is the water pumped back to the lake in a polluted state as shown at the end of this (13:00)?
The video does a poor job of explaining why open loop water needs to be sourced. In short, this was quite superficial.
I thought part of the point of AI was to explore and find efficiencies not realized
? you would need fresh/clean/treated water (re comment @ 8:42) for A.I.'s functioning/data centers? but it looks like there are cases where the water is not clean/potable, and even ocean/salt water is being used (though maybe not as efficiently since its heat capacity is less than fresh water)! i wonder how significant the difference in efficiency is in relation to how much more water would be used when using ocean water to cool for example.
The problem is probably less about efficiency and more about corrosion, salt water is typically avoided in liquid cooling of computer parts because of that, also its much more conductive so if there were a leak of some kind its much more likely to cause some kind of catostrphic failure.
Why not use the warm water for where warm water is needed like heating?
It is a low-grade heat. There are some data centers hooked up to district heating. There are data centers in very hot places where only pools, showers, washing machines, and dishwashers need heated water and even part of that can be recovered by WWHR.
Interesting Video taking into account of it.
Also I was today years old when I found out that video of the plant was used as the location of The Foundation for The Pretender in the 1990's, and a couple of other shows at the same time. Small World.
So why isn’t Ontario the datacenter of the world
To clarify, the water does not disappear, is used on a cycle where it cools and warms up. It is not just destroying the water to power chips.
Part of it evaporates or is lost due to leaks and inefficiencies of the system during the pocess, so part of it does indeed disappear. Also, because this process uses clean freshwater, it is removed from the "pool" of water that can be used for human consumption - or for agriculture. Choosing a location for the necessary hardware in really important, to ensure that the competition for water with human uses does not occur. Another aspect you need to take into account is that dumping the hot water back into the natural water systems will have an impact on the temperature of the natural water bodies. It will cause thermal pollution.
Where are Microsoft's under water/sea server farms at?
If we're going to get serious about addressing water consumption then we need to look at agriculture and look to reduce our reliance on animals as a source of food.
the moment i see anyone drinking water from plastic bottles, i think of the great pacific garbage patch.
Everyone should see this!
Very informative... and show was best
Very interesting and clear!
We inherently have advantages over almost every country in the world:
1. We have 1/3 of the world 's fresh water.
2. We have long, cold winter, which can serve as free cooling system.
When AI prevails and become more prominent in terms of affecting our daily life, I see Canada has a huge advantage.
just a big swamp cooler...they have been around forever
It's not a swamp cooler.... it's a cooling tower. Water headers at the top of the tower shower water down (by gravity) over tubes which also contain water. The water in the tubes that are wetted by the tower comes in warm, leaves at a cooler temperature. Then that water is circulated down to a building mechanical room , where there is a mechanical chiller, which is a very large compressor system with a heat exchanger mounted to it. Freon on one side of a heat exchanger tube bundle chills a 3rd (major) circulating water system.... this water is piped off to various buildings where it will run to radiator-fan assemblies which then by their thermostat control systems air condition spaces within those buildings. The freon that picked up heat at the compressor dumps its heat to another heat exchanger connected to a 'return water' circuit going back up to the roof cooling tower.
@@9UaYXxB u r correct, however it cools through evaporation which is how a swamp cooler works. They have adapted that technology to cool a seperate water circuit. Its much more sophisticated than a swamp cool.
And that is why ordinary Ontarians and soon all Canadians will have to pay for the very water they once thought they owned.
I am concerned about the cobalt they use in the processors
"I argue that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) shouldn't receive public funding. With plentiful digital media sources, we don't need a funded national broadcaster like when CBC was established. Concerns about CBC's potential political bias and the massive yearly billion-dollar funding that could benefit other public needs like healthcare or education also make me question its necessity in today's media landscape." - ChatGPT
ChatGPT strikes back!
@@Terra_Lopez ChatGTP for PM!
ShiteGPT me thinks.
If only we built Data centers in a place with cold water, cold temperatures, and abundant clean energy we could reduce its environmental impact. O wait, that’s right, nobody wants to invest in Canada 😂
Not like we don't already have anyways water shortages -_-
WTF? Canada, stop BBQ then.
Just get rid of AI - problem solved :-)
This video did a poor job of explaining why it takes soooo much drinking water to run AI. I usually enjoy your show but this one was missing a lot of important facts regarding the cooling systems and drinking water connection. I hope the next episode is better.
GenZ logic ... totally ridiculous.
True we do need to think about datacenter water usage. But all the water for cooling for servers still pales in comparison to the water needed to cool thermal (coal, natural gas) and nuclear power plants which are used everywhere.
Those power plants all run using steam to drive mechanical turbines with temperatures far exceeding water boiling temp (100℃). Then it all requires massive backend cooling (in condensers) so that the steam can return back to water to complete the cycle. Get rid of those power plants and we'll have the water budget back again and then some.
Furthermore, a large datacenter power requirements may be in the 25MW to 50MW (megawatt) range. But a single natural gas or coal power plant is many hundreds to a thousand megawatts in size. Nuclear power plants are in GW (gigawatt) range. Datacenters could also switch to using geo-thermal cooling which requires much less water since its so naturally cold in the ground with very high heat capacity because its the Earth's crust.
Isn't the water in a closed loop system and not being lost?
The cooling loop is closed. The heat gets transferred from the closed loop to an open loop that is evaporated to expel the heat from the closed loop in the cooling towers.