I always thought until recently EL34's had stronger midrange. A lot of Hifi users describe the same thing as Simon does in this video. In one of my Dr Z amps I switched to EL34's from 6L6's and experienced a loss of midrange. I put the 6L6's back in the amp and the mids were stronger. I still love both EL34's & 6L6's. It could also be the way the tone stack & gain stages are designed in certain amps.
I've also heard it explained in ways that seem contradictory. Of course, different people do hear things differently, but there are some things that the majority can agree on. Some of these tube differences can be visually confirmed if you are able to check them out using oscilloscopes, and equipment that can analyze frequencies that are present or lacking. However, most people consider the 6L6 to have more extended lows and highs, be less compressed, have a broader frequency range, and have more clean headroom. EL34'S are more narrowly focused when it comes to their stronger frequencies (more on that in a minute), are more compressed and don't have to be pushed as hard to distort, and when they do it's more "graceful". HOWEVER...most "bass" from a guitar is really low mids, and most "treble" is high mids (different from what "presence'" adjusts, which is more truly "highs" or treble). IMO a 6L6 is stronger in LOW mids, where the EL34 is somewhat lacking or "scooped". The EL34 certainly isn't scooped in the high mids, and is stronger in that range than a 6L6. So, it depends which mids we're talking about.
I would love to see an oscilloscope video demonstrating this exact scenario but I have yet to see one. I want to see the frequency differences claimed in both preamp and power tubes especially between “different” manufacturers. I can believe different gain characteristics of tubes but I just want to see scientific proof that one tube changes the actual frequency of the signals brought into it.
@@RockDrillSuite AFAIK, valves are not equalizers. Other than S-curve differences, some may compress more than others while generating harmonics. Pentodes generate steonger 3rd harmonics than beam tetrodes, but less intermodulation distortion in some circuits. Some other factors of valves are: electronic resonances, microphonics, and oscilations. That's all I know.
It depends how you define midrange I guess, when you compare EL34 to 6L6 in a dual rectifier the EL34 seems to have more of what most people call midrange. The 6l6 seen brighter.
I generally think of it as the opposite, that a fender has extremely scooped mid range, to the point that players like Stevie Ray Vaughan were using a tube screamer to boost the mid range. Where as a Marshall sound has buckets of mid range and kind of lives there, to the point that we used to use a graphic equalizer to pull all the mid range out of our Marshall amps to play metal.
That's because of the tone stack. American-style tone stacks (Fender, Boogie, etc.) emphasize big lows and bright highs, whereas British tone stacks (Marshall, Laney, Vox, etc.) emphasize mids. Interestingly, once you start pushing the power section, the tone stack plays less of a role in the eq. Yesterday I was playing my Carvin MTS (typical American tone stack, with Sovtek 5881 power tubes, which are 6l6 equivalent). Scoopy mids, big lows and ringing highs until I turned it up to get the power section going. Those big bouncy lows went away fast, and my tone became ALL mids.
@@ericv7720 You've hit on the truth. Once you push the gain high enough, the EQ circuit can no longer boost or cut any frequencies. What you're left with is a completely flat EQ because you've just pinned it to the ceiling.
So, I'm not eating crazy pills. Everyone sayes the opposite (including my ears). He briefly mentioned "low mids". I agree EL 34s have lower midrange, but Marshalls are made bright with bass knobs that do less than Fenders. Tweed Fenders use 6L6 tubes and have a mid hump, so perhaps "blackface" Fender amps may have a scooped circuitry to clean them up, but 6L6 have a much wider scoop while EL 34s have a tiny mid dip (but less bass and high "sparkle" than 6L6s).
Been using/playing a vh100r since 2004.jj 6l6gc power tubes and the sound is fat and round in the bass response and warm and smooth in the hi end.Mids seem even and less pronounced.
it seems so ironic that beam power ( Kinkless Tetrodes ), came about from the need to circumvent a patent....some might argue with me, but they seem the more musical tube. back before semi-conductors, they may actually have Not been the better industrial tube...I don't know how well they stacked up there....I just know they sound better to my ear.
This is true because with EL34 you can hear a warm mid range crunch that means the mids are very low but 6l6 have a flat response and the sound is more balanced and alive with the presense of mid range so yeah i agree with the video
@@robgarcia6770 It means that more than one different sounds at once don't blend with each other and you can hear them ringing harmonically. At one time but separately, in harmony.
How come my 6L6GC tubes with the same measured pc and trans conductance, sound different In the same amp.? How come all my different brands and design EL34 Tubes with the same gm and pc sound different in the same amp? How come my differnt brands of EL84 tubes that test the same sound differnt from each other in the same amp? And Don't forget my 6v6gt tubes either. How come my 12ax7 tubes with the same gm and pc sound different in the same amp? I can only say that your advice is completely different from my experience
Is it possible that by "scoop" he means "hump", like maybe an inverted scoop? The British rock sound is super upper mids, like Ronno's wah always on, or the range master boost, etc.
No they definitely sound scooped as in a mid cut, I've had engls in the past and currently have a jvm410, they've always sounded more scooped compared to my current invective and my previous mesas and peaveys
Wouldn't you say the first order effect on EQ is the circuit design and speaker cabinet? What are you keeping constant when you compare these tubes? Does the tube itself really have a measurable impact on the total EQ? Obviously a marshall and a fender sound different, but there are nine other things more important than the tube choice when making the comparison.
Shhhhhhh we don’t like nuance around these parts. All jokes aside, Marshall has shipped amps with 5881 power tubes (a type of 6L6 tube) and you would never think it sounded anything like a Fender. No surprise, it sounds like a Marshall.
It doesn’t really matter these days. With the invention of multichannel amps and master volumes, Most folks don’t push the power sections enough for the tube types to really become a factor.
True, especially with modern rock and metal tones. You need headroom in the power stage for the needed tightness and clarity, what's why some of the very high end amps in these realms have crazy amounts of output power. They're not intended to be pushed anywhere near their theoretical maximum output. It's all about headroom. And I find it truly ironic that everyone, also modern players who are not into software solutions (which is pretty damn good these days), tend to all-tube heads (if they can afford them), and hybrid with tube preamps and solid state power stages are pretty much forgotten niche today even though these types of amps make a loooot of sense with modern tones. But well...we're guitarists...we love living in the past...
@@RedHeadGuitar Exactly! Modern metal is all about tightness and punch so a nice linear power section is pretty desirable. We Guitarists just don’t quite realise it. Speaking of hybrid, I coincidentally dusted off my 1997 Marshall Valvestate VS100 head. Damn that thing is killer… cut the highs a tad, pump the mids, punch it with a TS9 and it’s fantastic!!
Hmmm. I would have thought that a characteristic of 6L6s is some scoop in the mid-range and that EL34s have less mid-range scoop/more mid-range. In fact, isn’t that the main traditional distinction between British and American amps - more mid-range in British amps?
@@andrewkemp1882 That is true, i forget exactly what part i was referring to about him getting backwards. If your really curious ill rewatch the video to figure out what he got backwards. EDIT: Ok i rewatched. What he got backwards is exactly that. He said that EL34's have a midrange scoop not a midrange bump. So what you said was correct but he said it backwards. Its EL34 = midrange focused and 6L6 (think fender) = equals midrange scoop.
LISTEN WITH YOUR EARS TO THE TYPES OF TUBES....THEY DO SOUND DIFFERENT. I LOVED 6550'S, 6L6'S, KT 66'S, 6V6'S, EL 84'S, AND EL 34'S IN MY MARSHALL, LANEY, PEAVEY, AND FENDER AMPS!!! DIFFERENT SHADES OF FREQUENCY'S
Hey Laney (Simon?), can you please post a video with some REAL information about "valve warm up time"? It's pretty much impossible to get a straight scientific explanation on this matter on the internet. It ranges from 30 seconds to 30 minutes on internet forums.
Basically it takes about 35 to 45 seconds for the tube filament to heat up enough to pass signal through but basically you put your power switch and your standby switch on and strum your guitar until signal goes through and that's how long it takes for the amp to warm up.
Far be it for me to question a tech from Laney but my ears don't agree. I've always understood the EL34s to be more mid focused. 6L6 to me - be it the case or not - definitely 'sound' more scooped to me, my guess is that it's because of the clarity - the bottom and top ranges and more pronounced, whereas the EL34 has less punch and more grainy fizzle. But WTF do I know - I'm forever chasing tones.
@@jupitermoongauge4055 Some people have an opinion, but act as though it is consensus when it's not. When guitar amps were originally designed, they used what ever parts were available at the time, and the amp voicing were happenstance. That is all the bands of that era had to work with. Jim Marshall copied the Fender circuit because it was expensive to ship Fenders to Europe. They used the tubes/ valves available in their country. This is documented.
This is disappointing. I wish I could hear or understand what this dude was saying. Crank the voice, cut that background crap music taking away from the focus. I honestly ran out of volume on my laptop to try to hear his voice. It was probably an informative video!!
Oh man, this guy is making the hard sell on the tube snake oil. It's a scam. Tubes don't affect tone. It's the EQ circuit that affects the tone, not the tubes. Bypass the EQ circuit and the every tube will sound the same. Manufacturers spread this propaganda so people will keep buying tube amps and the tubes that go with them.
you're kinda oversimplifying, but yeah - circuit design and component selection are WAY more important. (not to mention speaker selection). and of course, very few players nowadays plug straight into and amp without something in between the guitar and the amp input, and that makes a big difference too.
Too much academic snobbish talk: "the pre-amp tube is the first tube in the gain chain..." Yeah, no kidding. Anybody who is considering the difference between 6L6 & EL34 KNOWS such basic information. Get to the point of the video. Oh, too late. I'm moving on.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
I like his perspective.. and i can loop this when insomnia kicks in...very smooth delivery...😊
He is the amp whisperer. You need an amp to hear him because he whispers when he talks.
he needs a preamp right.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I always thought until recently EL34's had stronger midrange. A lot of Hifi users describe the same thing as Simon does in this video. In one of my Dr Z amps I switched to EL34's from 6L6's and experienced a loss of midrange. I put the 6L6's back in the amp and the mids were stronger. I still love both EL34's & 6L6's. It could also be the way the tone stack & gain stages are designed in certain amps.
I've also heard it explained in ways that seem contradictory. Of course, different people do hear things differently, but there are some things that the majority can agree on. Some of these tube differences can be visually confirmed if you are able to check them out using oscilloscopes, and equipment that can analyze frequencies that are present or lacking. However, most people consider the 6L6 to have more extended lows and highs, be less compressed, have a broader frequency range, and have more clean headroom. EL34'S are more narrowly focused when it comes to their stronger frequencies (more on that in a minute), are more compressed and don't have to be pushed as hard to distort, and when they do it's more "graceful". HOWEVER...most "bass" from a guitar is really low mids, and most "treble" is high mids (different from what "presence'" adjusts, which is more truly "highs" or treble). IMO a 6L6 is stronger in LOW mids, where the EL34 is somewhat lacking or "scooped". The EL34 certainly isn't scooped in the high mids, and is stronger in that range than a 6L6. So, it depends which mids we're talking about.
I would love to see an oscilloscope video demonstrating this exact scenario but I have yet to see one.
I want to see the frequency differences claimed in both preamp and power tubes especially between “different” manufacturers.
I can believe different gain characteristics of tubes but I just want to see scientific proof that one tube changes the actual frequency of the signals brought into it.
@@RockDrillSuite AFAIK, valves are not equalizers. Other than S-curve differences, some may compress more than others while generating harmonics. Pentodes generate steonger 3rd harmonics than beam tetrodes, but less intermodulation distortion in some circuits. Some other factors of valves are: electronic resonances, microphonics, and oscilations. That's all I know.
It depends how you define midrange I guess, when you compare EL34 to 6L6 in a dual rectifier the EL34 seems to have more of what most people call midrange. The 6l6 seen brighter.
I wish they didn't put background music, makes it harder to focus on what he's saying.
I generally think of it as the opposite, that a fender has extremely scooped mid range, to the point that players like Stevie Ray Vaughan were using a tube screamer to boost the mid range. Where as a Marshall sound has buckets of mid range and kind of lives there, to the point that we used to use a graphic equalizer to pull all the mid range out of our Marshall amps to play metal.
That's because of the tone stack. American-style tone stacks (Fender, Boogie, etc.) emphasize big lows and bright highs, whereas British tone stacks (Marshall, Laney, Vox, etc.) emphasize mids. Interestingly, once you start pushing the power section, the tone stack plays less of a role in the eq. Yesterday I was playing my Carvin MTS (typical American tone stack, with Sovtek 5881 power tubes, which are 6l6 equivalent). Scoopy mids, big lows and ringing highs until I turned it up to get the power section going. Those big bouncy lows went away fast, and my tone became ALL mids.
@@ericv7720 You've hit on the truth. Once you push the gain high enough, the EQ circuit can no longer boost or cut any frequencies. What you're left with is a completely flat EQ because you've just pinned it to the ceiling.
Also depends on tweed versus blackface right? I think tweeds were midsy and blackfaces scooped.
So, I'm not eating crazy pills. Everyone sayes the opposite (including my ears). He briefly mentioned "low mids". I agree EL 34s have lower midrange, but Marshalls are made bright with bass knobs that do less than Fenders. Tweed Fenders use 6L6 tubes and have a mid hump, so perhaps "blackface" Fender amps may have a scooped circuitry to clean them up, but 6L6 have a much wider scoop while EL 34s have a tiny mid dip (but less bass and high "sparkle" than 6L6s).
Please re-edit this video without music so the voice is audible.
Nice description. Helps me decide between two amps I'm looking at
Been using/playing a vh100r since 2004.jj 6l6gc power tubes and the sound is fat and round in the bass response and warm and smooth in the hi end.Mids seem even and less pronounced.
it seems so ironic that beam power ( Kinkless Tetrodes ), came about from the need to circumvent a patent....some might argue with me, but they seem the more musical tube.
back before semi-conductors, they may actually have Not been the better industrial tube...I don't know how well they stacked up there....I just know they sound better to my ear.
Someone highpass this man's voice! 😅
34s emphasize mids and on 6s they are scooped.
I learned something today thanks 🙏
This is true because with EL34 you can hear a warm mid range crunch that means the mids are very low but 6l6 have a flat response and the sound is more balanced and alive with the presense of mid range so yeah i agree with the video
How come I can't get , the power tube with the black lug into the socket...are their two types..
I thought el34 wasn't midrange scooped 🤔
so far Im leaning towards 6L6's - darker tone, way better for metal playing! :)
I’ve got the 6L6 on my EVH 5150 and they are fantastic for metal
You'd like properly biased 6550's or KT88's even better if you like 6L6's for metal, trust me 👍
@@scottdunn2178 why would I trust you when I dont know you?
@@stevenaustin4591 Ok, well, keep using your 6L6's then... no biggie.
@@scottdunn2178 I second this, although most people couldn't tell the difference it makes a difference for the player
6l6 to me are much punchier and not as squishy. They’re much more articulate to me. I swear by the 6l6
I'm starting to realize this... I always liked EL34 amps because of the way they break up but I realized 6L6 has a way better feel
El34 is pentode so it's has better harmonics
What does that mean? "Better harmonics"?
@@robgarcia6770 It means that more than one different sounds at once don't blend with each other and you can hear them ringing harmonically. At one time but separately, in harmony.
How come my 6L6GC tubes with the same measured pc and trans conductance, sound different In the same amp.? How come all my different brands and design EL34 Tubes with the same gm and pc sound different in the same amp?
How come my differnt brands of EL84 tubes that test the same sound differnt from each other in the same amp? And Don't forget my 6v6gt tubes either. How come my 12ax7 tubes with the same gm and pc sound different in the same amp?
I can only say that your advice is completely different from my experience
Is it possible that by "scoop" he means "hump", like maybe an inverted scoop? The British rock sound is super upper mids, like Ronno's wah always on, or the range master boost, etc.
No they definitely sound scooped as in a mid cut, I've had engls in the past and currently have a jvm410, they've always sounded more scooped compared to my current invective and my previous mesas and peaveys
I thought British Amps used _valves_ not _tubes_ ?
They just call em valves over there instead of "chubes"
The background music in this video makes hard to understand the presenter WAY TO LOUD.
Wouldn't you say the first order effect on EQ is the circuit design and speaker cabinet? What are you keeping constant when you compare these tubes? Does the tube itself really have a measurable impact on the total EQ? Obviously a marshall and a fender sound different, but there are nine other things more important than the tube choice when making the comparison.
Shhhhhhh we don’t like nuance around these parts.
All jokes aside, Marshall has shipped amps with 5881 power tubes (a type of 6L6 tube) and you would never think it sounded anything like a Fender. No surprise, it sounds like a Marshall.
It doesn’t really matter these days. With the invention of multichannel amps and master volumes, Most folks don’t push the power sections enough for the tube types to really become a factor.
Agree, but recently with cab simulations (going straight to PA or silent recording) you can again push your final amp stage.
Maybe, but those that do push their power amp tubes have better tone. So to anyone who cares about great tone,tube selection does matter
True, especially with modern rock and metal tones. You need headroom in the power stage for the needed tightness and clarity, what's why some of the very high end amps in these realms have crazy amounts of output power. They're not intended to be pushed anywhere near their theoretical maximum output. It's all about headroom.
And I find it truly ironic that everyone, also modern players who are not into software solutions (which is pretty damn good these days), tend to all-tube heads (if they can afford them), and hybrid with tube preamps and solid state power stages are pretty much forgotten niche today even though these types of amps make a loooot of sense with modern tones. But well...we're guitarists...we love living in the past...
@@RedHeadGuitar Exactly! Modern metal is all about tightness and punch so a nice linear power section is pretty desirable. We Guitarists just don’t quite realise it.
Speaking of hybrid, I coincidentally dusted off my 1997 Marshall Valvestate VS100 head. Damn that thing is killer… cut the highs a tad, pump the mids, punch it with a TS9 and it’s fantastic!!
Very informative. Thank you, sir!
He has them backwards about midrange, poor guy how embarrassing. His credibility just got flushed down the toilet.
Exactly! wow...
what would you expect from a pen pushing brand manager..lol
Hmmm. I would have thought that a characteristic of 6L6s is some scoop in the mid-range and that EL34s have less mid-range scoop/more mid-range. In fact, isn’t that the main traditional distinction between British and American amps - more mid-range in British amps?
@@andrewkemp1882 That is true, i forget exactly what part i was referring to about him getting backwards. If your really curious ill rewatch the video to figure out what he got backwards.
EDIT: Ok i rewatched. What he got backwards is exactly that. He said that EL34's have a midrange scoop not a midrange bump. So what you said was correct but he said it backwards. Its EL34 = midrange focused and 6L6 (think fender) = equals midrange scoop.
@@michaelinglis8516 He said that 6L6s have more mid-range than EL34s.
LISTEN WITH YOUR EARS TO THE TYPES OF TUBES....THEY DO SOUND DIFFERENT. I LOVED 6550'S, 6L6'S, KT 66'S, 6V6'S, EL 84'S, AND EL 34'S IN MY MARSHALL, LANEY, PEAVEY, AND FENDER AMPS!!! DIFFERENT SHADES OF FREQUENCY'S
Would have been much better to play some and hear the difference. This is just him gassing on....
Nice fnaf ambiance at the start
Hey Laney (Simon?), can you please post a video with some REAL information about "valve warm up time"? It's pretty much impossible to get a straight scientific explanation on this matter on the internet. It ranges from 30 seconds to 30 minutes on internet forums.
30 seconds (or less) it works. 30 minutes, it's warmed up. Trust your ears.
Basically it takes about 35 to 45 seconds for the tube filament to heat up enough to pass signal through but basically you put your power switch and your standby switch on and strum your guitar until signal goes through and that's how long it takes for the amp to warm up.
Please loose the elevator background muzak, its annoying and very distracting.
Far be it for me to question a tech from Laney but my ears don't agree. I've always understood the EL34s to be more mid focused. 6L6 to me - be it the case or not - definitely 'sound' more scooped to me, my guess is that it's because of the clarity - the bottom and top ranges and more pronounced, whereas the EL34 has less punch and more grainy fizzle.
But WTF do I know - I'm forever chasing tones.
Are they interchangeable?
absolutely not on most amps, some such as irt120h has a bias switch to allow swapping 6l6 with el34's
@@joebama9544 i am able to use EL34's in the outer two sockets and 6L6's in the inner two...have a boogie mark IV, no bias necessary...
On most Mesa amps there’s a 6L6/EL34 switch on the back.
Don't wanna be negative but too much talk that means nothing without sound samples
there's a reason for no sound samples. as the phrase implies, the video was "all talk."
late 70s rca 6l6.kicks el34,bigtime,from an englishman.
it kind of depends on the amp, at least from what I can tell
Why do I see a lot of Americans playing Marshals and Brits playing Fenders?
Because a lot of people play both amps in both countries. This guy was talking shite
@@jupitermoongauge4055 Some people have an opinion, but act as though it is consensus when it's not.
When guitar amps were originally designed, they used what ever parts were available at the time, and the amp voicing were happenstance. That is all the bands of that era had to work with. Jim Marshall copied the Fender circuit because it was expensive to ship Fenders to Europe. They used the tubes/ valves available in their country. This is documented.
I might need to sub to this channel. My amp is a Laney Cub 12R in disguise lol.
This is disappointing. I wish I could hear or understand what this dude was saying. Crank the voice, cut that background crap music taking away from the focus. I honestly ran out of volume on my laptop to try to hear his voice. It was probably an informative video!!
An ECC83 is a 12AX7...😏
Why this guy is whispering?
Oh man, this guy is making the hard sell on the tube snake oil. It's a scam. Tubes don't affect tone. It's the EQ circuit that affects the tone, not the tubes. Bypass the EQ circuit and the every tube will sound the same. Manufacturers spread this propaganda so people will keep buying tube amps and the tubes that go with them.
you're kinda oversimplifying, but yeah - circuit design and component selection are WAY more important. (not to mention speaker selection). and of course, very few players nowadays plug straight into and amp without something in between the guitar and the amp input, and that makes a big difference too.
Hello you talk alot but NO COMPARISON...Sucks
Like
Too much mumbling
Too much academic snobbish talk: "the pre-amp tube is the first tube in the gain chain..." Yeah, no kidding. Anybody who is considering the difference between 6L6 & EL34 KNOWS such basic information. Get to the point of the video. Oh, too late. I'm moving on.
First