What A Difference A Tube Makes! Tung Sol vs Mesa vs JJ Tubes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- Not an in depth tube review! Just having fun trying out 3 different brands while re-tubing my EVH 5150iii Pretty fun to hear the differences though! Check it out!
Mesa Boogie 12AX7A
Tung Sol 12AX7
JJ Long Plate High Gain 12AX7
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On a serious note, it's great to see someone say, "I'm going to try different tubes" Excellent.
FYI, the Mesa ECC83 12AX7-A is just a premium selected JJ ECC83S.
"Hot funk, cool punk, even if it's old junk, It's still rock and roll to me."
One of the best of not the best tube review I’ve seen around. Thanks for sharing!!!!
I have the exact same amp I bought brand new 4 months ago in March 2017. 2 stock 12AX7 tubes already burned out in under 4 months. Replaced all 7 with Tung-Sol. Glad I did.... tone is even more exceptional than before. Love this amp for the music I play !!!
It's such a great amp isnt it!!! I freakin love it! Thanks for the comment!
those tung sols are the shit dude. sound best
Yeah I like them too! This video is almost a year old so I ended up getting a full set of Tung Sols just a few days ago, they sound great!
Im a vox guy currently but i am looking to play some thrashy metal like 80s metallica, but i cant afford a new amp, so i am trying to find the best new tubes and speaker to get me close. what do you recommend speaker wise and EL84 wise?
I dont think tubes and speaker are enough to make the difference you are looking for, those are subtle changes usually. However I think your best bet are 5881/6L6 power tubes, Tung Sol 12AX7s, and for the speaker maybe Vintage 30s. At that point I think you'll need a pedal to get you the actual tone since most Vox I have played just dont have the gain for that kind of music. Not really sure what to recommend there, maybe a Boss DS-1 or DS-2, Digitech DL-2, etc. I don't like the Metal Zone too much but that's just my opinion
Yeah im not a fan of the metal zone, I already ordered an MXR fullbore metal which has a gate and an EQ and you are correct, the vox hasn't a gain control. I was thinking i would go with a combination of EL84s (from JJ or Tung-sol) since thats the only tube my amp will take and Tung-sol 12ax7s with an eminence Man o war speaker. ill take a look at adapters tho to see if i can throw any 6l6 or 6v6s in there.
Desire, I have a Vox AC30. Not long after I got it, the tubes died and I took it to a tech, he put in new tubes and charged me a ton of labor (it was cathode so all he had to do was put the tubes in but I didn't know it didn't need biasing at the time). Now, I had always sworn my Vox was much fuller sounding than other AC30s with the same Celestion Greenback speakers I'd play in stores, and my friends always told me the same thing.
Years later, my friend had 4 new JJ EL84s he bought for an amp that he sold and gave them to me. We put them in the amp, and the tubes in the amp were RCA black plates. By this point they had thousands of hours on them, but they still sounded better than the JJs. With the JJs, my Vox sounded just like any other AC30 I played, very thin and extremely lacking in definition in comparison. This was power tubes, but the preamp tubes are also very thin. Now if this was me, thetubestore.com is currently selling RFT EL84s for liek $35/pair which I wouldn't hesitate to drop 4 of those into my AC30 but if you are really hard for money, the new Mullards are $18/pair. For the preamp tubes, they have some RFTs which are absolutely fantastic tubes and would be great in the Vox, but they're a bit expensive so I would probably go with the Mullard RI's, which sound pretty good. That will add some balls and definition to your tone and help the amp sound mean when you run some pedals.
For pedals, I had good luck with a Proco Rat and a Chandler Tube Driver. I tried many that just didn't work well with the amp too. Neither pedal was quite Metallica level of distortion, but they would both do Judas Priest/Black Sabbath quite well. What I would suggest is try all the pedals in a decent sized store in the area and see what you like. Lug in your AC30 if you have to.
So when all was said and done I went with all Mesa 12AX7s and 1 Tung Sol in position V1. The Mesas are really tight sounding and quiet, the Tung Sol in position 1 gives some of that high distortion. Great mix that I'm very happy with. Let me know in the comments what tubes you are using and why, there are so many out there I'd love to hear what combinations you are using!
i just got a couple of the tung sol's to throw in my triaxis, never had any of this brand before. I think I'm probably going to end up doing the same thing this weekend. right now I've got the mesa 12ax7s in it. probably going to dump the tung sols in v2 and possibly v4 which are the gain1 and gain2 stages of a triaxis. should give a nice blend I'm hoping. hoping I get a nice liquidy smooth distortion.
Let me know how it turns out! The Tung Sols have a nice gain sound to me, my only complaint was an increase in noise. I'm interested to see what you get out of them
will do. I was planning on doing a ton of samples soon. I just picked up the triaxis about 8 weeks ago and it was a used one with a bad output knob. had to have that replaced so I've only really had it a couple weeks so far. got some jjs, mesa 12ax7s and now the tung sols so i'll probably do a lot of sound vids soon sampling everything from pickups to different preamps. I also have an original peavey tubefex. thing sounds incredibly great with the mesa 12ax7s. it out brutals even the triaxis imo so far which is why I picked up some tung sols just to see if I can get them sounding a little more similar. there were virtually 0 vids on triaxis or tubefex preamps out there and both are flat out incredible.
Very cool! I look forward to checking out your videos and hearing your results! Tubes are an interesting thing, sometimes I swear I can barely hear a difference between tube brands, and other times I feel like there is a huge difference. It really depends on the amp. Great example: I didn't like JJs in my 5150 at all, but I have a Marshall combo as well and JJs sound amazing in it. Just goes to show, all amps are different. Only way to really know what's going to work is experiment. I noticed on sites like Amazon you can actually get sampler packs of tubes so you can try several in V1 and see which you like.
i've got a jj in v1 and tung-sols for the rest sounds pretty good to me, all tung-sols gets a bit too bright.
I always loved Tung-Sol. The sound is much more defined.
I’ve tried Tung Sol in the V1 of my EVH 5153 50 watt and Stealth 100 watt, suffice to say they’re too harsh n bright for my taste. Now I’ve put JJs in the V1s in addition to Bugera Ecc83b in the V2 and I must say I really enjoy the results but to further experiment I got a Mullard Russian in the V1 of the 50 watt and hot damn that’s a blazing tone. I ordered another one for my Stealth and can’t wait to try that mix.
The JJ ECC803S is a long plate preamp tube. The Gold Pin series ECC83S short plate are the best tubes for high gain amps. The other tubes were short plate tubes and the JJ was the only long plate tube. Long plate tubes are supposed to have more mids and have more chime.
They ALL sound good. It's just a matter of how you EQ things as well. If you swap out tubes and do a comparison video like this then you only really get a taste of how they all compare to one another. Like he said in the video, each tube will be better in different applications.
"I was thinking purely metal"
I like this guy. 🎸
Tung Sols rock. Just put some in my Mesa Mark 4. Can't tell you how sweet my amp sounds. It's like resurrected. I replace Mesa tubes in my amp.
Found them to me to muddy sounding with not enough dynamics and punch. Tung Sols also breathe very nicely and are very receptive to touch and their sustain is incredible. My 2 cents.
Well excecuted comparison. Easy to hear differences. Never have had this big differences so you sort of did great job picking up different sounding tubes.
Thanks for watching! The sound in the room was more subtle, the microphone picks these things up quite a bit better than I expected. For example in the room the Mesa tubes sounded really good to me, and I've grown very fond of JJ tubes as well. However the Tung Sol seemed to record the best to my ears. All subtle, but all unique as well.
That’s a good point mic picking up more easily the differences, room reflections doing best they can to hide the differences and auditorio menory is not only short but quite unreliable. Your tracks we recorded pretty well i must say. I’d be intereated in similar comparison maybe for v2, v3 or poweramp tubes. But that’s a lot of time and effort and bit of $$$ as well.
I personally preferred the Tung Sol when in your bass/drum mix, they retained focus and not lost in the mix . . FWIW 👌🏻
They drowned out the drums. DAMN THEM!
The crunch, the crunch oh my god the crunch is to die for. Those Tung sols holy cow they sound soooo good. Who needs NOS?
I really appreciate you all for providing the information on Tubes, Tube Amps, and how to the best out of both categories. This is what I dig about The Internet, you can get answers before you make a "left turn"!!😂😂😂 Thank you all, very much!!!
Allen Blackwell you’re very welcome thank you for watching!!
Nice work. My only complaint is that I wish you would have used the same settings for each tube regardless of where the tubes wanted to go. It would have been great to hear the difference without any adjustments. But thanks for doing this.
Wow ! really impressed and did not know that pre amp tubes had that much difference when it comes to tone ! Great vid as usual !
+mohamed ali menhir Thanks for the kind words and for watching, really appreciate it! Yeah this is the first time I've really sat down and compared a few different tubes, I was also kind of surprised at the differences. I guess now when I think about amp tone I'll have to really think about the tubes as well! Thanks for your support!
Great comparison, thank you. All 3 sound good, but I like the Tung Sol best, followed by Mesa, and lastly the JJ.
Good choice!
I recently bought 4 JJs ECC83-S and 1 Tung-Sol 12AX7 for V1 for my Peavey 6505. Turns out the Tung-Sol and 2 of the JJs tested with very poor thermionic emission. One other JJs was also cracked. My amp tech replaced them with Mesas. Can't wait to try it out at this week's rehearsal!
Tung Sol , They're great.
Another good high gain tube is the Sovtek 12AX7LPS. Also sold as the Groove Tubes 12AX7 R2.
After listening a lot, for my Jet City 22H I like Mesa SPAX7 for V1, Tung Sol 12AX7 for V2 and V3, EH 12AX7 for V4 and EH12AX7 Balanced for V5. Now it's time to listen to EL84's.
I like the tight sound Mesa, the roar Tung Sol and harmonics EH.
We'll see how the mixture comes out
Thanks for the video, very good and instructive.
How did it turn out. Im looking into new tubes and i like mesa and eh
Groove tubes!! Sound awesome for low end !! No noise.😎🤘🏻
I build tube amps.... and it depends on what we're going for as to the tubes we pick. Shuguang (china) tubes usually are the grittiest sounding, JJ, is generally smooth, and the TungSol is a nice balance between the worlds. It's a subtle difference, but when you're running several gain stages, it adds up.
Awesome info thanks for sharing with us!
@@Corrupt-R No worries. I build amps, pedals and fix stuff over on my channel. You may have some fun over there, although it's a roughly filmed 1 man dog and pony show.
@@DeadKoby sounds about like my channel! Lol I’ll check it out!
I’ve always been into swapping pickups and necks on partscasters. Watched some videos and decided to upgrade my dsl40c. Put in a v30 speaker, Removed the c19 cap. Changed all tubes and biased. EL34 JJ Russian power tubes, v1 JJ 5751, v2 12AT7 Tung Sol, v3 12AX7 Tung Sol, v4 JJ 12AX7 cryo short plate. After a lot of back and forth with various preamp tubes this is the best combination I’ve found with my particular set up. Has a great classic rock sound on the green channel and a great 80s metal sound on the red channel. Note, if I didn’t remove the c19 bright cap I think I would have put a 12AX7 in the v2. Hope all this helps somebody with a dsl40c. It’s a rabbit hole for sure.
Another thing, what I noticed upon replacing my preamp tubes in my EVH Stealth was that they are Groove Tubes 12AX7-S, Slovak made. 3 of them weren’t exactly rubbed off well. The print pattern and color were distinguished by the “orange” and circular logo. Not a fan of GTs either.
This reaffirms my preference for Tung Sols.
4 me Tung Sol is the winner by far
Good video. Im in preamp tube hell right now lol..needed this
Wow, listening to those clips on my iPhone 3G. Really rocked. I can see how tube rolling can make a huge difference. I am sold, I don't think I will even bother buying a stereo. Thanks.
I play Metal and I acquired not a long time ago a Marshall Valvestate 8080 combo that I used to find it's gain insufficient , then I discovered that it has an Electro-Harmonix 12AT7 tube in the preamp put by the previous owner (the valvestate series have only 1 tube for the preamp section to "color" the tone and the power amp is solid state) so Idecided to change it to a chinese Shuguang 12AX7B (this was my only possible option since in my country it's very hard to find tubes in the market , also because of it's price and characteristics and gain ) , This tube made a difference in the tone and the gain of the amp, and now after watching this video I'm willing to try the Tung Sol and why not switch to that tube
Excellent mix and review !
MegaDocjoe hello! Thanks for sharing the story, be sure to let us know what you think of the Tung Sol tube!
Sure ! I'm still waiting for the tube to arrive
I'm embarrassed to say how many hours I've spent researching pre tubes for my Marshall TSL60h. I found it likes the =C= 34's it came with but many use JJ's although I haven't tried them. I tried reissue Mullards, just awful. The Marshall brand pre's were very good, I'm told they are Shuguang, probably from the same factory as your Mesa's and the lower gain JJ model you used. Marshall VLVE 00055 x3, Marshall VLVE 00066 x 1. I am using Chinese 6N4 -12ax7. Sound great, quiet, affordable. I get them direct from China, takes 7 days free shipping. I've ordered 3 times and never a problem. I will try these in my Matchless Lightning that has three years on the stock JJ's. Nice review.
You tested a JJ ECC803-S (according to the picture) which is different from the typical JJECC83-S that most players use. Tung Sols for sure. Mesa's were slightly better than the JJs but way too thin.
I noticed that as well, and was thinking therez gotta be a difference...
The Mesa sound the best in that amp, yes. I used JJ in a Marshall when I was gigging, tried a Tung Sol in V1 and it was horrid bright and sterile. All depends on the amp, thanks for vid!
jj makes mesa tubess
I prefer Mesa tubes as well. But in this test I think the Tung sol were just as good, IMO.
Thank you very much for this information! You really shined some light on my tone quest. I'm going back and forth with all 3 of those tubes in my peavey 3120 which goes through a peavey 6505 cab , my pickups are fishman keith merrows
The Mesa sounds sharper to my ear
Mesa's stood out to me too. I'm pretty sure that they're re-branded Sovtek's though, not that there's anything wrong with that.
It is still good to do tube comparisons with the style you play. JJ Long plates are like other Long Plates designed for Fidelity as in old Audio reproduction for home. Wider Ear Frequencies. IMO.
Running a compressor before the amp input makes a big improvement to alot of amps and various tubes.
Great vid, clear, honest... I understand the high gain JJ is the ECC83S... these are short plate. The long plate is better suited to Phase section and not recommended for Combos. I don’t know why? Just what suppliers are recommending.
Interesting how every amp is different. I find the JJ tubes are better than stock in my Mark V and Dual Rec. I have been switching to thr new E83CC which I find better.
Totally agree, the amp seems to really affect how the tubes respond. Bias setting is certainly a big part of it, but speaker type, size, etc. play a role too I'm sure. Thanks for sharing your findings on the Dual Rec! I have one of those too and mostly just use the stock tubes, maybe I should experiment a little on it with some different tubes
Man You almost did it perfectly. I was amazed at the differences in tone between different tubes. Actually your video was the one that I noticed the most differences between tubes than any other on youtube. Than you said you changed the amp settings, than I go "Oh that's why it sounded so differently". Why you did it? You ruined it, how can you say that the differences in tone are specific to tubes changes if you changed the amp settings?
Anyway, Can you do the same again without touching the amp settings?
Hey thanks for watching! You're right about changing the amp settings, though I only did that for one of the tubes not the others. This video was just me messing with some new tubes and recording the results, thought I'd share it in a video but it was a totally laid back video and not a real professional test by any means. I can't believe its almost at 60k views, I figured maybe 100 people would watch it from my subscribers at the time. Had I known there would be such a response to a video like this I would have taken it way more seriously. With that said I'd love to do another video on tubes but at this point I use the Axe Fx II almost exclusively for recording and I practice with a dual rectifier which I just put Mesa tubes in. So not sure I'll have the means or opportunity to redo the video the right way but if I do I'll be happy to put it together. Thanks again for watching and for your comment!
The Tung Sol tubes had a real bite to them! While the other two were great, I'm going for the Tung Sol 12AX7s but as I've always said, it wouldn't break my heart if the JJs and Mesa Boogie valves were all that we had! Yes, I used the V word! I'm an Aussie!
The Tung Sol’s seemed to tame dynamics better, good balanced sound imo
I don't always use the same tube in all positions. Generally I will use Tong-sols for my V1 position JJ's for the gain aong with Mullards and then you can use the Mesa or Mullard as a phase inverter.
Joe T very wise! I wish I had more time (and money) to experiment with a lot of combinations. I’ll try your setup sometime!
The Mesa' s sounded wide open on "lows, mids, and highs"; very good!! But as always, it all depends on the individual and what they are listening for. My bedroom buddy, a Super Champ XD, came stock with GT's and I replaced them with the same brand, just different types ( my preamp is a Mullard), but I should have tried some 6V6's in the power amp. But that's what's fun about it, being to get something other than what was there initially. But I dig those Mesa's!! 🌟🌟🌟🌟
Nice job on this video. I've been experimenting with the tubes in my Mesa single rectifier. I currently have a tung sol 12ax7 in V1 and a Mesa spax7 in V5. I'm digging the tone with that setup so far. The Mesa tube is an older tube though so I've gotta throw a new one in there to see what kind of difference there is. Not a fan of JJ's in my amp. Up until recently I was using a set of JJ's in the preamp and Ruby el34's in the power section. I pulled those and went with some old Fender 6l6's which sound nice on clean. Again. Got to wait for payday so I can buy a set of Mesa 6l6's and another Mesa spax7 in the phase inverter to see what a nice, new tube set will sound like. It's cool to experiment with different brands though, like you said. I have all different brands powering my amp right now. It will be interesting to see what matching brands and mismatching brands will sound like... When I get paid.
+Kris Novak Hey thanks for watching! I've been really happy with a Tung Sol Gold Pin in V1, then Mesas in the rest and JJ Power Tubes. I like how clean the JJs are, but not a huge fan of the tone itself, which is why the Tung Sol in V1 is really useful. Love how it sounds now! I think JJs would be great if you like a lot of mids in your tone, but I think the 5150 is already mid heavy so I dont think they are a great match unless you mix them...
everyone says the tung-sols sound "clearer","brighter"... - for me the most striking to em is that they deliver way more low-end boost. do i have a hearing problem?
I have 3 Tung Sol 12ax7 in a Blues Junior. Man, that is the THING! You can obtain a high gain with a beautiful harmonics.
Great video, I really liked the JJ, I could hear a more focused sound on the mid-bass, is amazing how much your sound change with a preamp valves swap. I have got a Blackstar S1 104 and I am really looking for some valves able to tame the high frequency,.
Hey thanks for the compliment and thanks for watching! One thing to keep in mind is you can hear the differences between the tubes pretty easily through the recordings, but when youre sitting in the room it's very subtle so don't expect drastic changes if you swap out your tubes. What you will hear though is slight EQ changes, a "warming" or "softening", a change in background hiss, etc. If your amp has some harsh high frequency it is possible a tube switch can help round it out a bit. I would suggest doing searches for tube EQ differences and pick a brand that does what you are looking for to the high end, the change will likely but subtle but hopefully enough to help. Good luck and let me know how it goes!
I searched and I saw on tubestore.com a complete guide about preamp valves. Gold Lion are used for tame high frequencies in a JCM 800 I think they are the right valves for me. I would also like to ask you if you know good amps with a good warm and rich sound with a british vibes. I play alternative rock/post-hardcore but I am not a super fan of lead channel in modern amp, I prefer work with a good amazing crunch sound and an overdrive pedal.
I've got a mk1 and thinking about the Mesa's now.. thanks for making this!
Hey Bud! Interesting Video, Using all JJ's with el34's in a Hayden british voiced 40 watt combo,(from the makers of Ashdown bass amps) sounds great for blues, rock and british metal, matches the amp very nicely, and EHX's with 6l6's in a 50 watt Crate combo for American Metal, that thing is a freakin beast!
This maybe late but the Mesa are not mesa tubes...they are relabeled JJ tubes as well. Yes. The stock are jj's. Same as the mesa. The mesa are just well tested. The long plates usually have better bottom end than the short plates.
The jjs were so articulate and presence was great.
I also found that JJs are too mid heavy including power tubes. I too love the tung sol and mesa. I really like the EH also, more rounder. Sweet video and great sound. Keep up the good work.
JJ sounds sick by itself but ddidnt sit well in the mix. The mesa was the most forward. you cann really hear the pick attack. Mesa sound amazing out of my blue vox advt60 and advth120. The JJ`s sound good in the mix, but Id says its more flexible to get the mesa and lower some frequencies in ur DAW or amp since its easier to remove then to add.
Really helpful video! I just picked up a 5150 with a mishmash of preamp tubes. I'm doing some research to see if there's any tube combination that will retain it's current gain character while also making it quieter
I don't think JJs came through as well in the video as they should have. They are actually really quiet and would suite the 5150 very well. Maybe not the long plates though, just the regular version. The 5150 will be a little noisy no matter what tubes you use though, beast of an amp!
The bass response was a little better in the tung sol. Other than than that it just kinda sounded like u you increased the presence on every tube on down the line though to me. U could def. compensate for each making them sound like the others w/ out too much trouble imo, except for maybe the jj since you u said u had turn the mids off.
Hi I have a question. Who actually makes Mesa tubes today. Especially 12ax7.
I believe they are re-branded JJ tubes but I'm not 100% sure. The only real difference is Mesa probably requests tubes that meet a certain standard and then relabel them. That in itself can give different sounds, but like all tube changes, the difference is subtle in person
Ty for sharing! I love your analytics. Some ppl say that the tube is the weakness link ( A not so savvy one of course). But lets say, for example, the V1 socket. If the components in that sockets aren't functioning at their fullest potential, even the socket itself being old and worn , would it be safe to say that any tube rolled there can't really be accurate? I have a 1984 Mesa C+ and I've been rolling for months. Seems like I just can't get it groovin. Thanks for your time! 🤘👌, Jim
I'm no expert but I do know that if the amp is old then cleaning the sockets can be beneficial. I don't know if it necessarily helps the sound or just keeps everything working in good order, but it couldn't hurt for sure. 1984 might even need the caps replaced, and some other maintainance. if new tubes haven't helped Id say it's time to get it to an amp tech for sure just to make sure everything is in good shape. Aside from that changing your V1 tube can definitely make a difference, but it's subtle, so if the amp isn't performing like you expect I don't know how much trying different tubes will really help. Anyway hope that's at least a little helpful, comment again if you get it checked up and let me know how it goes!
Ty for the reply. Yes, your words are true. I did A total recap in March 2019. I try to keep things in check. In fact, so much so that its taking away my joy of playing. I'm such a perfectionist I nit pick over everything. This is the only amp I have so I have a great feel and know when something doesn't seem just right. After I just finished the cap job, stupid me, the amp was powered up and I shot some canned air in it and had a mini mushroom cloud poof! I thoroughly cleaned pcb and measured every component I could and they all measured in spec. Since then I lost the trust and integrity in it. It works. Some may say it sounds great but that experience looms in my mind. I've shotgunned several components just to see if it helps me. Upgraded speakers. It " seems " to have helped. Anyway, tubes. I've been struggling with thought that are tubes frequency filters or just make the circuit work. Granted, noise issues definitely come into play with tubes. As most ppl know, particularly the V1. Its very difficult to find a good, quiet tube for that position with regards to white noise and microphonics, buzz, hum etc. With my amp every socket is important. Very finicky amp. There's a long story with this amp. I don't want to bore you but I truly think that I got a lemon. Some ppl rave over C+'s being the holy Grail of amps. The current market reflects that. Research the resale price of em now. Jeesh! When I purchased it back then, to me it was just another amp. I was never floored by it. In fact, there were times I beated it around out of frustration. Oh well, ill continue to tube roll till I find that tone in my head that we all are chasing. Blessings. Jim
Not a Metal guy, but that tone is great! The Tung-Sols (NOS) are all I use on my old Fender’s, (blues, country, folk) but I could see someone using something else for this application.
Great mid scoop, and sparkle with the TS’s when playing clean.
Love your channel, Subscribed!
Hey Frank thanks so much for the comment and for watching! I've become much more of a blues guy these days and really appreciate the old strats. I got a custom 60's strat from the Fender Custom Shop last year and love it! Seems like JJ tubes suite the vintage type amps quite well, but I'll definitely check out the Tung-Sols for that!
why compare a low gain JJecc803S vs 12AX7 tubes? I use an 803S in my V1 of my Mesa. 10% les gain and very nice for clean tones. Your Mesa Tube is a JJ ecc83s
wow, sista.....I just randomly found your comment while doing some research on tubes for my Blackstar HT Club 40 Hope you're doing well! Sounds like it from your videos ;)
@@kfox153 and I just found your reply. Lol.
OK dude, this is how it works. You need to see the guts of the tube. There are only so many producers of modern vacuum tubes. Primarily the new sensor corporation is the main importer, the same guy who is electro-harmonics. They are Russian tubes, and as he has worked with the Russian factories, he was able to purchase one of the factories. SO they produce the majority of the tubes imported which he has had a hand in designing for different properties as with the 12ax7 family of tubes. The other European producer is the JJ company, which used to be called Tesla or JJ Tesla. All other "brands" are these same tube varieties that have been bought in bulk from these sources and then the batches are run through a selection and grading process where they rebrand these tubes with their company name. You have to look at the guts to determine which tubes they would be selling you. I do not use Chinese tubes though in some camps they are well liked, but I am not sure if the Chinese factory is still in production. As with any production line/assembly line, there are some good tubes in the batches and then some rejects, and usually the rejects get destroyed. But the ones that make it out of quality control, for distribution, can also be suspect as they might have been at the threshold of being a reject. That's why some of these companies buy up bulk batches and test them and grade them. A 12ax7 is actually 2 amplification units in one glass bottle. Those 2 halves of the tube in the generic sense are not equally balanced as a point of manufacturing but they have a marginal balance. One side might be more than the other side, and how that tube is in your amp circuitry and the balance of the 2 halves is what influences the amps circuit and performance....you have to know the circuitry and which side might be the stronger side and how the stronger aspect effects the circuit. You could also get a tube that's just the opposite....its the odds and you don't know....the wild card.
There are tube marketers that test for balanced tubes so both sides are measured and selected so they are even, these particular tubes would be marketed as for high end tube audio as for the phase inverter position that drives the power tube section in an amplifier.
There are even particular tubes that are constructed to be one side with the characteristics of a 12ax7 and the opposite side to have the characteristics of a 12au7, and they also make a tube that is the mirror opposite of that type tube......again relative to the circuitry that would be connected to the sides.
Yes each 12ax7 has a different response....a different flavor.
So if your amp that you purchased was a designer amplifier or a boutique situation where its tuned for performance, then the manufacturer has selected particular tubes for particular positions in the circuitry...for the summation of the sound you hear at the speakers. Generally the pre-amp tubes last and the wear and tear is the power tubes. Unless a pre-amp tube goes microphonic and squeals or rings...they don't need replaced. In the event that you would need a replacement for a single tube, or if you would decide to retube the amplifier.....YOU NEED TO REPLACE WITH THE SAME EXACT TUBES or you will change the voicing of the amp. The same exact tubes would be based on the guts, aside if you choose the branded name on the tube. You could buy a JJ 12ax7 short plate that's rebranded as a mesa or a ruby or a TAD, and what would count is that it be the short plate JJ 12ax7....by any other name.
AND even though I mentioned the tube sides not being balanced, its the odds you gamble with in retubing an amp. Most of the time the sides are not too far off, but then there are those that can have a hotter side......spin the wheel of fortune.
I am an amplifier designer and builder for 35 years, as well as service and repair.
As with any assembly line produced amplifier, they have design tolerances and variance so there are no 2 amps in a production run that are exactly the same....they are provisionally the same. So you either buy an exception one or a run of the mill one.....or you get the lemon
AS with race cars and motor building, there is a term/phrase called "blue printed and balanced" where ever minute detail is measured so it can be repeated. Only a high end amplifier designer and manufacturer would take such pains to produce a product that has the greatest tight tolerances where each amp they manufacture is virtually the exact and the same in every way possible that's controlable
Keep in mind, that you think your amp is the best amp on the planet. But it is a circuit board amp that in my world I would call a piece of junk because it is circuit board. If you were to take your amps circuitry and remove the circuit board factor and build it old style and point to point.....you'd be amazed how much better and richer the amp would be.
There is a difference in thickness of real wire when wiring up circuitry and whether its a solid core or a stranded core. If you took a solid core wire of 22 guage and took the conductor out of its insulation and then flat rolled that piece of copper to the thickness of a circuit board trace, and compared it with the traces on the circuit board in your amp....you'll find a distinct difference. A thicker wire will pass more signal than a thinner wire as a conductor... but yes there is a factor of topping out when using a thicker wire....but you'd want the appropriate thickness for the best signal transfer.
Then there is a capacitance factor and the definition of a capacitor. In proper point to point wiring, the wires never usually run parallel with each other where the parallel effect would create a capacitor of which would suck tone in the circuitry......ALL CIRCUIT BOARDS RUN PARALLEL TRACES AND SUCK TONE.
The METAL years were the 1980's, and marshall amps ruled.....and particularly the JCM 800 which still would have been a point to point built amplifier.
The correct Marshall JCM 800 would have been the European amps because the American distribution company forced a switch to 6550 power tubes which are more of a bass amp tube that doesn't breakup or saturate very well, where as the European amps had the traditional el34's. The el34's of the time were problematic and caused warranty issuse's so the distributor forced the switch in north America.
If your amp uses 6L6's, you should switch to 5881's as a direct replacement with consideration to biasing. Switching to EL34's requires more circuitry changes and thus not a direct replacement.
Keep in mind that in biasing the power tubes, there is no exact correct value as its based on plate dissipation characteristics, though you can have a variance in biasing where you can bias hot or cold or inbetween based on where the tubes start to breakup. Hot would be 70% of the maximum plate dissipation and cold would be 50% of the maximum plate dissipation....so there is a 20% spread to tune in for.
As a production amp, I would guess that it is set for a colder bias as opposed to a hot bias.
But 6L6's are not a good choice for the fundamentals of METAL. Guitar as a instrument is a mid range voiced instrument. Metal amps generally use some sort of diode clipping....hard clipping the signal for the distortion characteristics and crunch. The Marshalls typically used a cathode follower circuity for the tone stack which imparts a particular harmonic content.
The 1970's era black sabbath tony iommi flavor of Metal was on Plexi and metal face marshalls or Laney amps and had a different distortion character and the hard clipping was due to foot pedals with diode circuits as boosters/ filters feeding the signal to the amps.
The clipping diodes all have their own flavor when it comes to hard clipping......silicon diodes have a very hard character and LED"S have a softer character, and they all have different points where they clip the signal at based on the strength of that signal as its amplified..
Generally if I am commissioned to build a foot pedal that uses clipping diodes......I use a rotary switch that will switch between a variety of different diodes for different performance levels
Sovtek makes the new Tung Sol, Mullard, and Svetlana tubes, as well as the tubes that MB, Fender, Marshall, Vox, Peavey, and most others use. Sovtek is the Reflektor factory in Russia, which is owned by Mile Matthews, the founder and owner of EHX pedals.
I run JJ 6l6GC power tubes and Mesa pre amp tubes in my block letter 5150. Personally I think its the best sounding combo.
The Mesa that you have in your test is a relabeled JJ ECC83S so it should be the same to the stock tubes you had. The JJ ECC803 are not the same as the ECC83S by any means in fact it has 10% less gain and voice differently.
Thanx a lot. The time had come to renew the tubes on my amp. Your review helped a lot.
Food for thought, my used Blues Deluxe RI came with some Mesa 12ax7 tubes in it and I find them to be very mid-scooped (compared to JJs and other decent brands). I think that comes out in the video too. If you have an amp geared more for rock or pedals you'll probably want a better mid response from your tubes.
(I actually like JJ tubes in my amp but its very clear they weren't the best sounding in the 5150)
The JJs were flat. The Tung SOL had a lot of punch/attack so great for metal. I also liked the Mesa tubes but they were brighter at the top end, they still have punch. Either TS or MB and you will be happy. I hear JJ12AT7 tube out now is fantastic. I only mention that because I had a buddy swap v3 with the 12AT7 and also the phase inverter. Gave him a great djent sound without buying a horizon devices precision drive or apex pedal. Good luck. I'm using Mesa in my power section of a B52 AT100. I love it. I have some 12AX7 China tubes I was going to swap for Electrochemical but I do like Mesa's tubes. I have to wait until next payday anyway as she does work and sounds awesome through my Marshall Avt412 cab.
I like the Mesa tubes a lot, basically Mesa and JJs are my go to tubes these days. The Tung Sols in my experience have been too noisy and I've had several that were DOA out of the box. Finally decided not to buy them anymore
In this example, the Mesa sounds a bit too much in the high end but with a lower tuning and different EQ it would probably be quite good.
By my ears (and to my suprise), the Mesas were the best. My money had been on the Tungsols which weren't bad either, but the Mesas are the clear winner.
Great video man! Love that style of metal you demo, nice and chunky. That's what type of music or guitar style i want to hear for this tube demonstration. thanks!
Hey thanks so much really appreciate it! I hope the video was helpful, someday I should do an actual tube comparison video really in depth instead of so casual like this one lol.
Mesa doesn't make tubes. those were really the JJ short plate.
+Tremolux59 Very true! However for some reason I seem to prefer the Mesas, possibly because of their selection process? Supposedly they pick the best of the best, but really who knows how true that is
Because you tested different versions of the JJ. If they were both short plate that would make sense but the mesa is a completely different design.
Yeah I thought that Mesa didnt make tubes either. They just test them and print their name on them.
it was .. but now "made in china" .. Shuguang ?
store.mesaboogie.com/products/power-tubes-6l6-str-440-matched-pair.html
Thanks for rhe rsponse Sorry, should have been more clear they shipped it as a demo.floor model so yes used, they did remove all rubes except V1, that's why I suspect it may now be bad, but yes I think I will go with your set up, thanks again,
No problem! Let me know how it works out with the new tubes!
Didn't like the Mesa at all: sounded shrill and thin, no body at all. I liked the JJ and Tung Sol equally: JJ was more laid-back, midbass focussed, Tung Sol was more open and equally spread across the spectrum.
So JJ for bright amps or creamy sound, Tung Sol for dark amps or detailed sound.
yes but as he said he had mids on 0 for the JJ's so that goes to show how mid heavy they are and the 5150III is quite a bright amp
The Mesa is a JJ ECC83.
It does depend on the amp. I tend to like JJ's in a bright amp and Tung Sol's in darker amps. I think Tung Sol's are great in Mesa amps. From what I recall about Mesa 12ax7's...
Russian 1 =JJ
Russian 2= Electro Harmonix
Chinese = Shuguang 9th gen (if I remember correctly)
JJ is not Russian and never was. It is fully and always Slovak.
Love mesa sound
This is just a thought, why did you dont test them out in a preamp ? for example the ART Tube MP. then you would not have the issues with the amp´s sounding dif.. I will personally throw the TungSol inside sine soon, to get a better sound for recording guitars, and then i will see if its any good on vocals too
2 years later and I’m like huh reading this comment.
Very very nice review... a no bullshit review. Thank you very much
those things sold sound killer in this amp.
I'm running sovtek long plates in my 6505 in v2, v3, and v4 with a 12at7 in v5 and a 5751 in v1.
Nice demo! I was wondering if you could demo preamp tubes in a Marshall amp. That would be great!
Try a West German Telefunken ax7 in your VS1 socket. In my opinion..the best sounding tube in the world!
Just ordered a Tung sol ax7..I'm going to try one out.
Cool video..thanks:)
Good comparison video. Thanks for doing it.
+zurg9000 You are very welcome, thanks for watching!
I use Tung Sols. I dont play high gain stuff. I have a Princeton clean amp with nice pedal board. The EH 12AX7 sound nice but didnt last.
It would have been nice to hear the amp responded without the dirt pedal.
those mesas sound great in my engl powerball 2 along with some groove tubes which everyone seems to hate lol.
In this demo are all the preAmps changed to each different brand? Or just v1 changes in the demo
Back in the early 80's I installed Groove Tubes into a bone stock plexi 1987 and I have to admit that that amps sounded like sh^t afterwords, I think and believe that tubes are greatly responsible for an amp flavor. BTW the Mesa tubes ruled the distortion test!
Great video! Did you find your stop tubes to be noisy, as well...similar to what you said about the Tung-sols? I find my EVH 6L6 to be very noisy when not actually playing and it's bothersome.
Very helpful video
The JJs sounded terrible on the isolated guitar clips, but were by far the best in the context of the full mix. Very very interesting.
One of the most interesting things I've learned over the years is that the tone that sounds good "in the room" is almost never what sounds good recorded and in a mix. It has completely changed how I dial in amps and now I like the "recording" tone so much I use it all the time. It's really about not too much lows, and mids cutting through at just the right place. The JJs accentuate that which is why I think they sound good in the mix. You're right it's really interesting how that works out, but makes sense once you really dig into how all the instruments work together across the EQ band in a recording
if you want the best tone for distortion nos mullard or brimars are great
What tubes are best at tightness and response,, i dont care for sound to much, i am searching for good tight fast response in jmp super lead 100w at mostly slight overdriven sound.
I appreciate your insight. Thanks for the video.
Samantha you’re very welcome!
Tung sol, best harmonies.
It’s weird, isolated I preferred the Tung Sol’s and JJ’s, but in a mix those were my least favorite and I thought the Mesa’s sounded best in Mix. Complete reversal of opinion.
Great information Dude. I have several tube combinations rolling in right now. I just got my GT 12AT7 to replace the 12AX7 in the V-1 position for my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. That is supposedly like the George Benson amp. I need to smooth out that volume gain jump and smooth out the distortion in that amp. Sweetwater did not have all of the other GT's I wanted, so I'm getting some Mesa Boogie 12AX7A's and Tung Sol 6L6's. The GT's are on back order. I wonder if it has anything to do with the hold up at the Suez Canal! I loved your presentation. Thank you. Please feel free to give me any advice or suggestions.
Hey thanks for all the info and the kind words, appreciate it! I think the Mesa Tubes will suite it well for that smooth kind of distortion sound, but every amp is different so of course you'll have to experiment. As far as the volume gain jump, I'm not sure what you can really do about that. Some amps just have a huge jump like that and others are much more gradual. Keep me posted on what you think with the different tubes though, interested to hear what you think of them!
Holy shit great review I was struggling on what ore amp tubes to go with but you narrowed my search down....\m/ \m/
Glad I could help thanks so much for watching!
Have you ever tried RFT 12AX7s? They're NOS tubes that sound like NOS Mullards (I believe some of them were rebranded Mullards) but cost a small fraction of the price. They do everything well, and I haven't found an amp they don't work well with.
i wouldnt say that they sound like mullards but they have a lot of bass maybe the most bass heavy tube ive tried(and arent that cheap anymore) .a mullard i63 will destroy any rft or any other nos or new tube in that amp. sells slightly used around 30$ on ebay .matsushitas are nice as well and brimar cv4004. after hearing proper nos all the modern tubes sounds like shit and become irrelevant
NOT a fan of JJ tubes. I had a Marshall dsl40c that sounded great with the stock factory Marshall branded tubes and when they went bad I replaced them with JJs (el-34 power tubes) and I hated that amps tone and I ended up changing them back to tung-sol.