HOW TO USE THOU ...as well as thee, thy, ye & you.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- English used to have a formal and informal way of saying "you" - like lots of other languages do now! Allow me to explain...
What does "thou" actually mean? How is it different to "you"? And what about "thee"? These questions answered AND MORE!
...such as:
✏️ How were "thou" and "thee" used in Shakespeare's day?
✏️ Why is God referred to as "thou" in the Bible?
✏️ Why do Quakers still say "thou" and "thee"?
✏️ How do they use "thou" in Yorkshire?
✏️ When do you use "ye"?
✏️ Why is it "thou art" instead of "thou are"?
Watch this video and you'll understand what "thou" actually means. You'll see that it's not just a fancy old-fashioned way of saying "you". The reality is more interesting than that.
Check me out on Twitter & TikTok:
/ robwordsyt
/ robwords
==CHAPTERS==
0:00 Intro
0:17 What "thou" means
1:23 How to use "thee"
1:59 How to conjugate for "thou"
3:05 "Thy" and "thine"
3:09 "You" as 2nd person plural
3:57 Why call God "thou"?
5:08 Modern use of "thou" (Yorkshire)
5:39 Quakers
6:38 Goodbye! - บันเทิง
It's crazy how we use those words today to sound "fancy" when in fact it was the opposite back then.
I was thinking the same thing! It also seems counterintuitive given what The Unit has taught us about the letter THORN being substituted by the Y.
Bruv, I keep reminding my mates about þat!
Which is why I find The Empire Strike Back so amusing when Darth Vader addresses the Emperor, "What is thy bidding," thereby revealing himself to be a Quaker or on buddy-buddy terms with his boss.
ðat* or ꝥ
@@Primitarian clearly vader and palpatine were besties.
Thou hast done most marvelous well in thy presentation, and I thank thee.
He has made one mistake tho, believing that conjugation is bad when in reality there is nothing more wonderful for the ability of expression and perfect clarity in listening.
Sounds very similar to german: "Du (thou) hast getan (done) ... in Deiner (thy) Präsentation, danke Dir (thank thee)!"
@@FrogeniusW.G. Should be "thank thee" at the end.
@@FrogeniusW.G. Damn for real it sounds so similar
@@streetwind.
Yes. That's what I meant.
..Was distrakted by the many brackets and everything!!
😅
Thanks.
I am not a native English speaker, but for me these forms were always clear to me.
It follows the same pattern as first person words...
I, Thou -> subject
Me, Thee -> object
My, Thy
Mine, Thine
I am surprised this was not mentioned
because it only rhymes with the first singular pronoun
God loves you all! The Father sent the Son to die for you and your sins so that you could experience freedom to the fullest! Believe in Christ's death and resurrection (which sealed the work done on the cross) for your salvation and the forgiveness of sins! Amen! God loves you all! The Father sent the Son to die for you and your sins so that you could experience freedom to the fullest! Believe in Christ's death and resurrection (which sealed the work done on the cross) for your salvation and the forgiveness of sins! Amen! God bless you all, I will keep you in my prayers!
I realized this recently and my mind was completely blown.
Too many native English speakers use "I," "me," and "myself" incorrectly, so relating "thee" and "thine" with "me" and "mine" would probably have caused even greater confusion.
It's remarkable to me that those people who incorrectly use "I" instead of "me" never seem to have a problem with "we" and "us." 🤔
@@ErikOosterwal how do you mean?
Can we take a moment to appreciate how Rob takes his fantastic pedantry outdoors? Nothing says "dedication" like standing out in the cold to deliver another fascinating history lesson. Love this guy!
Or, his wife is tired of his TH-cam project.
@@peaceonearth8693 Weren't that 'er stalkin' 'im int' wood sithee?
Ye shalt sprechen Merci for thine dedicacion
Talking about not wanting to use "you" because singular might be confused for plural. We now have the use of "they" to avoid the gender issues of using he/she.. I still find this use of they singular confusing and not at all natural but I expect we'll get used to it.
The previous correct English was to use he, unless you knew the person was a she. It was not trying to insult women either. A chairmen rather than chair, unless it was known that the chairman was indeed a woman. The Woman’s Institute would only have a chairwoman
An aunt of mine (from County Durham) told me of a moment in her youth when, being reprimanded by her boss for addressing him as "thou", replied defiantly "Divent thee thou me, and I'll not thou thee". I thought that was an absolute gem.
That's a beaut
modern translation: "don't you thou me and I will not thou you."
The first "thee" is incorrect - it should be "thou".
@@KlipsenTube No, since the first thee is actually part of the verb "thee-thou"
@@k.umquat8604 I see your point, but it would be more compelling if it was spelled in one word or with a hyphen, and it would be “thou-thee”, stenciled from the French “tutoyer”, not thee-thou. And the second part would be missing a ”thee”, if the supposed verb is supposed to be used there, too.
I really want to see "thou/thee" make a come back in every day English by the commonfolk.
Tha's never been to Barnsley or Rotherham? I'll si'thee there!
they are though. The KJV bible uses words like this, so it is often mentioned this way if scripture is being quoted
@@human7491 but thou must!
Please don't. Learning English was hard enough I don't want to learn how to use "thou"
@@canox6017 if thou hath already learnt English, this shalt not truly be that hard to learn!
I am a Quaker who no longer uses the "plain speech" (few Quakers do), but I know some who do. One point you didn't mention is that in American Quaker plain speech "thee", rather than "thou" is often used for the subject of a sentence. As in a sign in my meetinghouse which says "Thank thee for not smoking". In this usage, "is" is used ratherthan "art". For example "Thee is welcome, Friend".
Some folks encountering this usage think it shows ignorance of proper 17th century grammar, but it was actually the usual Quaker speech pattern among American Quaker communities throughout the 18th and 19th centuries.
Thank you for that! I've often seen Quakers quoted as apparently being ungrammatical ('thee is' and so on) and wondered whether they are being misreported or whether it was a genuine aspect of the dialect. I'm glad to have that cleared up.
Just because it was actually what was being used hundreds of years ago - doesn't make it "correct"; it's still grammatically bad as explained in the vid
Thee is = you is, rather than "you ARE"
"Thank thee" is correct, though. Thee is the direct object of the verb to thank.
@@danielcrafter9349 no you’re wrong. If it’s the way the dialect has evolved, it’s the correct grammar for the dialect.
@@egbront1506 True. I shouldn't have used "Thank thee" as an example. A better example would be "Thee speaks my mind" or "Thee is doing well."
As one who was born and raised in a Quaker family that still uses plain speak as a family tradition, your (thy :) ) explanation was very interesting. We never used the word "thou" at all, though - we used thee as the subject form, too. Never knew of the subject (thou)/object (thee) distinction.
Me too
As a German , I just use „thou, thy, thee“ as I use „du, dein, dich“ in my mother tongue .
Thou dost! Das machst Du!
Thou dost - Du tust. :)
nom. thou
gen. thy/thine
dat. thee
acc. thee
poss.pron. thine
refl.pron. thyself
nom. ye
gen. your
dat. you
acc. you
poss.pron. yours
refl.pron. yourselves
nom. I
gen. my/mine
dat. me
acc. me
poss.pron. mine
refl.pron. myself
_TO BE_
_modus indicativus_
praesens
I am
thou art
we are
ye are
he is
she is
it is
they are
praeteritum
I was
thou wast
we were
ye were
he was
she was
it was
they were
_modus conjunctivus_
praesens
I be
thou be/beest/bist
we be
ye be
he be
she be
it be
they be
praeteritum
I were
thou wert
we were
ye were
he were
she were
it were
they were
_modus imperativus_
be (thou)!
be (ye)!
*TO HAVE*
_modus indicativus_
praesens
I have
thou hast
we have
ye have
he hath
she hath
it hath
they have
praeteritum
I had
thou hadst
we had
ye had
he had
she had
it had
they had
_modus conjunctivus_
praesens
I have
thou have
we have
ye have
he have
she have
it have
they have
praeteritum
I had
thou had
we had
ye had
he had
she had
it had
they had
_modus imperativus_
have (thou)!
have (ye)!
*TO DRINK*
_modus indicativus_
praesens
I drink
thou drink(e)st
we drink
ye drink
he drinketh
she drinketh
it drinketh
they drink
praeteritum
I drank
thou drank(e)st
we drank
ye drank
he drank
she drank
it drank
they drank
_modus conjunctivus_
praesens
I drink
thou drink
we drink
ye drink
he drink
she drink
it drink
they drink
praeteritum
I drank
thou drank
we drank
ye drank
he drank
she drank
it drank
they drank
_modus imperativus_
drink (thou)!
drink (ye)!
@@RobWordsThe word "dost" is a modal verb, "doest" is full verb:
Thou dost not sleep. (modal verb)
Thou doest all work. (full verb)
When I was taking German in high school, it was explained to me that you used the "du" form with God because there was an intimacy there. I assumed that English probably had the same theological reason for using the "thou" form when addressing God.
That´s right! God is oftentimes adressed as "our father" or "my father" which perfectly justifies "du". A formal "Sie" would be completely out of place. We hear that the honorific form of you was/is used in French. I´m not shure if that is still done today.
In French, it is the same! God (Dieu) is always addressed as "tu".
Yes. It's also a recognition of how God deals with us on a personal level, not requiring a "you" as the powers who "Lord it over us" would do.
In addition, Hebrew knows no form of respectful "you", hence I guess this feeling of communication intimacy between man and God is established hereby as well.
I think there was actually a medieval understanding that a king was viewed as the father of his subjects (Sire). The more distanced form of address only came later.
I know this is an older video but with regard to YE when it has the meaning of THE (i.e. when used in phrases like "Ye olde shoppe") that Y is not actually a Y. It is a Old Norse letter that was called thorn (Þ) in medieval English and was pronounced like the modern TH (it's still pronounced like that in Icelandic). When it's written in Gothic script it kinda looks like a Y, hence the confusion. So "Ye olde shoppe" should be actually pronounced "THE olde shoppe". However, like Rob said, when ye is used as a pronoun, it's pronounced like a regular letter Y.
That's a rather different issue though ...
I love how 'thou' and its conjugation make so much sense in the context of Germanic languages compared to today's you. Like in High German, the ending for 2.P.Sg. verbs ist -st as well. So when 'you can' becomes 'thou canst' again in English, it is much closer to High German 'Du kannst'.
In Ireland we use "ye" as a plural of "you"! We have no formal versions (don't think formal versions exist in Irish either) it's just nice to be able to differentiate between singular and plural!
And sometimes youse use youse for the plural (puns intended).
@@eivindkaisen6838 hahaha true
Why not use ye in American and British English?
@@gato-junino I don't know they just don't haha
@@una_10bananas , alright. It could be useful.
You are like the Vsauce of the English language
@Camaleón 🇩🇴 THYNE English language
He just needs to grow and sell his beard!
This guy is wayyyy better than VSauce. VSauce goes on annoying rants and goes off on so many side topics for 30 minutes he completely loses interest.
He would rather be "þe Vsauce of þe English language".
...or would he?
Thou canst not be calling him saucy, canst thou? ;)
As someone who's currently learning Spanish, that has formal and informal forms, I too really appreciate the simplicity of just having "you" in English. It removes a whole set of parameters when trying to speak and gives the ability to really focus on expressing whatever you want to say without risking offending your interlocutor. Much easier.
I am a Spanish speaker and when I started learning English it was very stressing to use "you" with adults or teachers, because I felt I was not respecting them. Rob has just put at peace my respectful teenager when he explained you is the formal way.
German speaker here. It really is quite straightforward. You use the formal with older people, those higher in status (like your boss at work), anyone in an official capacity and strangers. The informal address is reserved for family, friends and your peers (until you reach adulthood).
@@diarmuidkuhle8181 EXCEPT on the internet. Using the formal version on the internet is considered extremely rude.
@@lonestarr1490 That's not even true
@@lonestarr1490 I strongly disagree.
When I came to know people in County Cork, I was startled when they referred to me, even in writing as 'ye.' But sometimes they would use 'you' and now I see that was when it was an object. I never hear the ye in any other part of Ireland, but it does sound quite charming in County Cork. Thanks for explaining how ye and you are used.
Greatest city in da world bai
"Aye, fair play to ye bud"
Oh... now it all makes sense! I thought I was mishearing 😅
I noticed that when I first went to Cork. They seemed to really draw out the ye. Yeee.
Ye should know we say ye in kerry too
I like the traditional Yorkshire saying "Don't thee thou me as I thous thee". It is used to put somebody in their place who has insufficient social status to use the word thou to address the person using this phrase.
Makes no sense, if one is alone he is refered to thou, a crowd is adressed as you.
@@gunarsmiezis9321 The structure of languages make limited sense. They are always made up of inconsistent grammatical rules. Something is true until there is an exception. Interestingly modern German still has the difference between formal and informal forms of address. Du is the informal form of you singular (Thou). Sie is the formal version of you (Thee). However, Sie is also the equivalent of she and also used for they and them and her.
@@chrism7969 "They are always made up of inconsistent grammatical rules." Nop, never seen any inconsistency in my language. (other than peoples lazynes casuing -is to be reduced to -s which is different from true -s in how its conjugated since its still conjugated as if it was an -is except for the genetive which doesnt exist and is just identical to the nominative. BUT this is peoples lazyness and habbit, if one had the determination he could speak without any 6. declination endings and instead use the proper 2. declination (I actually do this more often than not))
@@gunarsmiezis9321 Yes, languages are made up of inconsistent grammar rules. Try learning a different language other than English, maybe? It is not intuitive...
@@arionthedeer7372 I can speak latviski, english, russijan and german...
English do to its creole language is the only inconsistent one.
I wish we still had these older features in english. It would make learning other European languages much easier because these concepts wouldn't feel so strange and foreign to start with.
Maybe if such intricacy was taught, people would actually appreciate when they have a mistake corrected instead of becoming disproportionately exasperated as well as violently defensive of their god-given right to spell and speak as ignorantly wrong as they please with incontestable impunity.
@@Anvilshock T'was excellently put, friend!
@@Anvilshock Considering we didn't even have baseline standards for English spelling well into the 1800s and only after we saw it succeed in France and a united Germany, don't hold your breath
@@Rynewulf Not the point, though, nor is it an excuse. One, we're not in "well into the 1800s" anymore. Information is embarrassingly easy to access and retrieve. Two, spelling and grammar rules weren't established for no reason, and certainly not for the reason of having something to lecture other people over. They are commonly agreed-upon tools to facilitate efficient and effective communication. Wielding them reflects your interest in that communication. If you spell like arse, you're signalling, "I don't really care whether anyone understands me, I'm just blurting out what I feel to satisfy my ego." And if you don't really care, you might as well not bother at all. Would save you, and more importantly your unfortunate witnesses, a lot of hassle.
Not that much of a problem. The other languages take the same direction and the formalities get out of fashion more and more. I know some germans living in Sweden, where just one approach lives. And all they love to give up the distinction. They all use just "du" in their german conversation just like the Swedes around them do.
I'm late to this one but have something to share. Having studied German I found it easier to understand Shakespeare because of the similarities to German. The "st" on the end of the verbs comes directly from German as does thou, thee, thine:
Ich, Mich, Mein = I, Me, Mine
Du, Dich, Dein = Thou, Thee, Thine (you, yours, yours (or sometimes 'yourn'))
"Thou canst not go" = "Du kannst nicht gehen".
And English does have a plural for "you" at least in parts of the US where we say "y'all".
I watched this video when it first came out... and now that I've played Baldur's Gate 3 and listened to the way Withers talks and (incorrectly) uses "thou", I'll never forgive you for educating me.
I’m going to have to send this to my English Linguistics teacher from Yorkshire 😂
Oh no, DON'T!!
@@RobWords Haha don’t worry I won’t 😂
@@ipixel1475 oh.
@@RobWords why not ?😄
@@elwolf8536 They still use tha thee in yorkshire, but they say "tha is"or "tha's" instead of "Thou art"
I always assumed the English YOU leaves out the formalities by referring to everyone as in an informal context. My world just turned upside down.
You is cognate with the old Swedish I and the German ihr. Both of those are plural forms, and both also used to be the formal way to speak to unknown people.
@@francisdec1615 I wouldn't have guessed the connection with ihr. Many languages are using formal addressing nowadays more than informal as I think about it. In German, French, Spanish the equivalent is widely used in daily speach
English “you” spreads the formal and plural down to the familiar and singular as a way of showing formal respect to everyone. In the process, formal BECAME singular; as we say in engineering, if EVERY project is top priority, then NO project is top priority, since they are all equally “top.”
@@allanrichardson9081 or in the words of syndrome “when everyone is super, no one will be”
@@francisdec1615 The English formal tongue is to use the plural version of the pronoun. In German and Scandinavian, it's a bit more complicated. The formal "you" is, in German, "Sie" - which means "they". In other words, if I am using the polite form in speaking directly to you, I refer to you in the third person, plural.
Well Tha says thev disappeared, but I was raised in North Yorkshire and I’m older than thee and we still use them. Having said that, what a marvellous video. I enjoyed it immensely. Thank you Sir.
Can't believe this channel only has 100k followers. His level of research, intellect and subtle humor needs to be shared and viewed by more people. Keep up the good work Rob! We love thee (or thou). 🤔
I’m 62 years old and was brought up in 'homes for the elderly' in Lancashire. Thee, thine and thy were often still used by the elderly (often born and raised in the 19th century.), though probably not following any grammatical rules at all.
As a proud Lancastrian I’m all for anyone butchering the Yorkshire accent, thems don’t talk posh like us do.
Yes they where follwing gramatical rules, people in their native tongue follow all the rules without even thinking about it.
@@gunarsmiezis9321 As an American, that certainly doesn’t hold true for any American I’ve ever encountered, so I doubt it does for much of the rest of the world as well.
@@Sanguivore Its true for all americans, else they could not speak.
@@gunarsmiezis9321 Just because someone is speaking, does not mean they are speaking their language "correctly" in a prescriptivist sense.
Intelligibility does not inherently indicate one is following the grammatical rules of their language, and therefore actual spoken language tends to be descriptive rather than prescriptive (assuming one doesn't come from a culture where speaking a language prescriptively is a value).
@@Sanguivore When one is speaking his native tongue he is speaking following all the rules of his native tongue. its just how humans are.
Now I finally understand. In Spanish the lord's prayer says: Padre Nuestro que estás en los cielos. (Estás is the familiar form because God is close to you) It's exactly the same in English: Our father who art in Heaven. Excellent explanation! Though art an excellent English teacher.
though = although
thou = you
_TO BE_
_modus indicativus_
praesens
I am
thou art
we are
ye are
he is
she is
it is
they are
praeteritum
I was
thou wast
we were
ye were
he was
she was
it was
they were
_modus conjunctivus_
praesens
I be
thou be/beest/bist
we be
ye be
he be
she be
it be
they be
praeteritum
I were
thou wert
we were
ye were
he were
she were
it were
they were
_modus imperativus_
be (thou)!
be (ye)!
*TO HAVE*
_modus indicativus_
praesens
I have
thou hast
we have
ye have
he hath
she hath
it hath
they have
praeteritum
I had
thou hadst
we had
ye had
he had
she had
it had
they had
_modus conjunctivus_
praesens
I have
thou have
we have
ye have
he have
she have
it have
they have
praeteritum
I had
thou had
we had
ye had
he had
she had
it had
they had
_modus imperativus_
have (thou)!
have (ye)!
*TO DRINK*
_modus indicativus_
praesens
I drink
thou drink(e)st
we drink
ye drink
he drinketh
she drinketh
it drinketh
they drink
praeteritum
I drank
thou drank(e)st
we drank
ye drank
he drank
she drank
it drank
they drank
_modus conjunctivus_
praesens
I drink
thou drink
we drink
ye drink
he drink
she drink
it drink
they drink
praeteritum
I drank
thou drank
we drank
ye drank
he drank
she drank
it drank
they drank
_modus imperativus_
drink (thou)!
drink (ye)!
To complicate things more it was usually 'thou beest' in spoken language and not 'thou art'. Compare with 'du bist' in German.
@@francisdec1615 Foolish germans tried to bring that nonsense in to my language, it all got reveresed by the nationalist inteligencia (and the population becoming atheist).
..santificado sea tu nombre
Use of tu, improper form. Rather thsn usted, "santificado sea el nombre de usted" or su
While reading Shakespeare in class, it sort was revealed to me that these words are similar if not the same to how in Spanish "you" is used. I had Spanish class before English (literature), I literally put what I learned in one class and made me read or understand Shakespeare better.
Thou ~ tú
Thee/Thy ~ te/ti
Art ~ eres
Interesting that Brazilian Portuguese has had the same shift. The polite form of 'you' has become the standard.
I thank thee for that. I have never previously felt quite certain about the declension of thou and it was good to hear about the ending -est. I think the Amish also use Thee and thou on a regular basis.
I am English and when I did my National service I was stationed in Germany and made friends with a German family. My father came to visit me and I took him to meet them. My father was a scientist who learnt to read and speak German pretty well, but as he needed it for his work (science) he had never bothered with "du". My friends has a six year old daughter and my father spoke to her and she look absolutely astonished, dropped the toy she was holding and rushed to her mother crying: "Mutti! Mutti! Er Siest mir! Er SIEST mir!!"
No, this is false! Es heißt richtig: „Er siezt mich!"
These letters are to correct:
sieZt (siezt) and miCH (mich, instead of „mir").
Ogott ist das suss! 🥰
Ich hoffe sie war eher stolz als erschrocken.
?????
Can you please explain the punchline?
@@SvenjaTenkes I´m guessing that the child not being far enough along to consistently use accusitive and dative correctly, but still understanding the (heavy) meaning of "siezen" is part of the fun.
English took to using only the formal "you", whereas in Sweden we had a language reform in the 60s to use the informal "du" with everyone. But our formal language was a little different in that "ni" (plural) was usually used towards employees, subordinates, etc. If one wished to be respectful in Sweden back in the day, you would adress people by title or sometimes (if a married woman) a feminine version of your husband's title. "Would Miss Emily want some more tea?" "Welcome, Majoress, please sit down." So "ni" sounds condecending to some who lived during that time. In fact, when some young people who've been learning French or German in school wish to be polite to older people and use "ni" (plural form) they'll sometimes get an earful about how they didn't go through the du-reform to be called "ni"!
th-cam.com/video/zIV4poUZAQo/w-d-xo.html
That explains the knights who say Ni...
I cannot believe I am first to bring up Monty Python...
I am a bit embarrassed.
@@georgielancaster1356 Hmm … did you watch the video above?
@@markvoelker6620 Sort of but I was busy. Did I miss the reference? It's midnight here and I have wild possums on my bed and cats having hissy fits and I just had to rescue my precious avocado from a possum. Who knew possums are middle class and favour avocado smash on toast? If they are hanging out for espresso, I can't afford a machine and those expensive little coffee containers. It's tea or instant coffee here.
Actually, it's approaching 1 am. I am losing the night!
@@georgielancaster1356 Ha! Yes possums eat avocados!
I must point out that the "informal" for God also prevails in Hindi. Hindi has three forms for "you": "tu" is singular, "tum" is plural ( and then there is the extra polite and formal "aap", probably due to Persian influence, also conjugated in the plural). "Tu" is only used for intimate friends and in slang and when abusing someone far, far below your station, and, curiously perhaps, between lovers when they communicate privately (as in French) - but never in polite conversation. It is considered very, very impolite to use "tu" - so much so that those learning the language can safely omit it altogether, and focus on "tum" and "aap". But strangely, this very "impolite" tu is used in two other cases - when speaking to one's mother (never ever to one's father, unless one wants to be spanked!) - and when addressing God. (No influence of Tyndale here, yet the end result is similar).
Maybe in other Indian languages too; I know that in Bengali , we have three forms for ‘you’ in the singular and three in the plural . 🙏
My father's grandparents, Wiltshire country folks, used thee and thou in daily speech. If there was a quarrel between them, the grandmother would say to her husband "don't thee and thou me"!
My first exposure to thee/thou/thy/etc. was from going to church as a kid, so I didn’t realize it was informal until we learned about Shakespeare in high school. As a kid, I thought it was just the one-and-only way they said “you,” but I did think it was weird that the Bible also used “you” sometimes. Thank you for clearing up this lifetime of confusion, because I’m sure I’m not the only person who encountered it in that order!
I like it, that you don't distinguish between formal and informal "you", but I really find useful to distinguish between singular and plural "you".
many dialects have their own way of doing so "ya'll", "youse", etc.. i suggest starting the trend urself, in ur own dialect. be the "ye" u want to see in the world
@@WGGplant It was just a comment about the lack of that in standard English. My language is not English and I don't need any particular trend for that distinction. My language already has it.
@@SantiagoLopez-fq4eb ✨be the "ye" u wish to see in this world✨
Thanks for mentioning the North of England. Defiantly we use thee, thou. When we do so it's not like a Shakespeare posh spoken sonnet. No, we speak it and it rolls off the tounge along with our accent. So fluent one would not notice that we are saying thou, thee because it just sounds like our accent. "shut duwer wilt thee, thou's lettin' draft in!"
I love these videos! Thank you for making them. I'm a writer who is fascinated by language. Every time that I have a question about something linguistic, I check and see if you'e made a video about it. Usually, you do not disappoint. Thanks for all of the time, effort, research and humor that you put into these videos.
I’ve just found you channel and it’s one of my top 10 favourite channels on TH-cam 1- the editing is amazing 2- the audio quality is great 3- the topics are very well picked and excellently explained
This is very generous, thank you!
And the humor is actually funny
And the diction is very pleasing to the ear! Plus that wonderful smile. If he's like that generally and not just on camera, he must be a joy to be around.
Very interesting! Use of thee and thou by Quakers is mostly continued today by the Ohio Quakers. North American Quakers also had a quirk that continues today. They often used "thee" as nominative and objective (e.g., How is thee doing today?), although published documents retained the use of "thou" for the nominative case. Friends who use "thee" today will mostly only use "thou" when speaking during meeting partially because they mostly quote from the KJV. Today, the use of thee/thy/thine by Quakers is partially a reminder that we retain a special spiritual fellowship, and we rarely use it with non-members. One way a Quaker might express unhappiness with another Quaker is to call that person "you", suggesting that the spiritual connection has been broken.
Wow, I didn’t know about that last part, that’s really interesting! But it makes sense-if “thou” signals an in-group, then a pointed “you” can be used to throw shade at somebody
I have heard that the reason the Quakers used thou was because the Bible refers to God as thou, so to call others you while calling God thou, or in some cases considering thou to be an insult to yourself, would be in a sense placing yourself or others above God. It makes sense, and with the change in language where people think thee and thou is holy language it makes sense to loosen up about it.
Thank you for this! A peculiarity of the Quaker use of “thee” as subject pronoun is the way it uses third person singular verb forms, such as “thee is.”
I've been explaining for years to people (without its ever having needed to be explained to me, just from my knowledge of languages) that the Quakers tutoie (tutoient?) each other because they're the Society of Friends.
Have always used Ye and not You in Geordie dialect. Thou and thee were also used in North Durham and parts of South Northumberland in my childhood.
'Where have you been?' was said 'where 'st tha bin?'(Where hast thou been )
In Spanish there’s a verb for the act of making a relationship less formal. You start off with a stranger saying usted, but at some point you get to know each other enough that you can tutear, switch to using tu
Interesting in Germany we have verbs for both saying "Sie" and "du". We "siezen" a person in formal contexts and "duzen" us with friends and family. But we have no way for the changing.
One thing to note is that Shakespeare isn't always consistent in his use of thou/you; maybe it was weakening already or more than one person was doing the writing (!) The KJ Bible follows the old singular / plural distinction rather than class, and its language usage in general is about 50 years behind the times since a large part was nicked from Tyndale without attribution.
Astute as ever. Thank you. The thou/you distinction was definitely weakening by Shakespeare’s day.
Not sure about this, because I'm not an expert on Shakespeare, but I've read that "thou" had become a way of insulting someone almost more than simply being informal, so that a change of address from YOU to THOU within a conversation shows aggression on the part of the speaker rather than inconsistency on the part of Shakespeare. That is to say, it was intentional.
@@scotthargrove990 That's probably true. 'Du' is normally seen as an insult if it's said to an adult German person that you don't know, and the same used to be the case in Swedish.
@@scotthargrove990 yes there is some use of thou as an insult in Shakespeare alongside "Sirrah".
In Russian, God is also addressed with the informal “you” ты (ti), I’m not sure exactly why but I think it’s also to emphasize God’s singularity since the formal “you” вы (vi) can also be used in the plural.
Your videos have got me hooked! I wish we hadn't lost our single/plural differentiation. I'm all for the way "you" is slowly evolving into "yous" and "y'all".
It's not evolving *into* it (I hope), but the lack of a current 2nd person plural is being filled by such things as "y'all", and I'm all for it.
@@borkabrak well, "youse" is only growing more common in Northern English, and American English is 100% going to take more and more features from AAVE in the future - including y'all
@@borkabrak Just adopt the Quaker plain speech "thee is" pattern
@@goombacraft I always thought y'all was borrowed into AAVE from the Dixie dialect and is not original of it.
After living in Spain for many years I came to appreciate the formal and informal. Respect has gone out the window in English speaking countries, the formal tends to corrects that. It is also a handy way to let someone know you're displeased if you switch to formal, but nothing need be said which might cause unpleasantness
I personally know Quakers who still use plain speech among themselves. They do not say “thou” and, as you mention, they do not conjugate the verbs either. Instead they use ‘thee’ as subject as well as ‘object’. So, “Thee is kind” as well as “I will give a job to thee”
I grew up in an area (near Philadelphia) with a large number of Quakers, and my dad would refer to the Quakers greeting you by saying, "How is thee?" This usage now kind of makes sense to me. Thanks!
Nay, it would be right "how art thou?"
"How is thee" is wrong in a double manner...
@@kellymcbright5456 But that is how we speak the plain language in the South Jersey/Philly area!
@@susankelemen9764 crazy
In Urdu we also have formal and informal versions of you
Āp آپ (formal)
Tum تُم (semi formal)
Tu تُو (informal)
And we also use Tu to refer to God in literature for the same reason, unambiguous singularity.
What is "semi-formal"? Is that like a classmate you don't really know but have classes with them?
In my part of Brazil (south) we also use Tu as the informal you. Probably same origin as both are indo-European languages. “Você” is semi formal - you would use that with people you don’t know well, in corporate environments, etc. And “o Senhor (masc) / a Senhora (fem)” are used in formal situations - with authorities or elders (it’s like I treat my grandma).
@@feliciagaffney1998 Yes, we use this when talking to strangers, talking to someone who is slightly older then you and you want to be polite. Even then tum can be considered slightly crass. I use tum only talking with my family members. I prefer to use aap. It’s more polite and refined.
Tu was also used to indiciate intimacy when referring to God. Often time in the English language thou is too cold or too distant which is why God is often precieved as being foreboding. However in Urdu when using Tu God is perceived to be more loving, more close someone who is more paternal rather then being cold and distant. It’s interesting how language can change perception.
So it turns out that I knew all of this inherently.
Despite years of learning French and German I still struggle with subject and object, but after watching this I turned to my wife to discuss it and we both rattled off three or 4 examples all correctly conjugated without thinking about them.
Czech is my native language and it's funny how all those conjugations, differentiation between object and subject, the singular, plural and the formal versions (that use the plural form) make _perfect_ sense to me, as opposed to just having one word, "you".
It's not just "informal"
It's a more intimate, closer relationship which would use thee, thou, thine
Quakers believe they are in a close relationship with each other and with God, so they use the informal
That thing on the ultra-formal “you” coinciding with the group-you still exists in German today 😊 it’s called Majestätsplural and the only difference is that the informal group-you is spelled “ihr” whereas the Majestätsplural is spelled “Ihr”, with a capital I 😁
👸🏻: Ihr habt schöne Zähne (you have nice teeth)
👯♀️: ihr habt schöne Zähne (same meaning in modern English)
In Latin American Spanish, they do something similar-- "usted" is formal, but "ustedes" is used for groups, even though Spanish from Spain has an informal plural you.
I thought Sie was for plural and singular formal?
@@aloedg3191 Yes it is, but as you surely know "sie" is used for the formal 2nd person singular and the 3rd person plural. Therefore "Sie/sie" doesn't behave analogously to the "thou/you" Situation, which refers to the 2nd person singular and the 2nd person plural. What the original commenter pointed out, is that the fact that in German we can use "Ihr/ihr" for the 2nd person singular and the second person plural is somewhat comparable to the English use of "you".
@@nokihan1787 And it gets a little bit more weird, because in German it was possible to address some one with much lower social rank by using the third person singular. And the third person plural can also be used to address a group of people formally.
@@barbarossarotbart Could you elaborate on the thing with using third person singular for adressing people of lower standing? Do I understand it correctly that you mean that a king or sometone like that might go to a peasant and say something like "Er stinkt nach Mist" directly to them like it would be translated as "you smell of dung"? If that is the case that would be kind of surprising to me. Would you happen to know any prominent examples of this from literature for example?
Great explanation on the singular emphasis of the reference to God using Thou in the Bible!! “Thou shalt have no other gods before me!” I always thought it was because God is our Father and thou is used with family members ❤
That was always my assumption, too.
In German god is called ,,du'' too.
Using the "informal" you with God is common to Italian Spanish, French German Russian and I have no doubt many more languages. I believe the reason becomes clear if instead of the formal form indicating "respect" we think of it as the speaker taking a "(respectfully) distant" stance, a granting and a taking of a kind of "personal space".
This is why the informal is also used for aggressive rudeness -- it is like stepping right up into someones face. In times more sensitive to verbal nuance, indicating distance by using the "polite" form could be used as a kind of cold aloof rejection of closeness. When addressing (the Christian) God, there is no pretense of "personal space" or distance.
The German theologian Martin Buber referred to a relationship of mutual respect, treating the other person as a PERSON, as “I-thou” (I assume “Ich-dü” in German), while a relationship based on power, treating other persons as THINGS, was “I-it” downward, or “I-Your __” upward.
At last! Ever since learning that "thou" was the singular/informal second person, I’ve wondered why they said "hallowed be thy name" and so forth. Many thanks for the most satisfying reason I’ve yet heard.
Stripping all those words down to just "you" does have some consequences, though. It makes the plurality of the second person pronoun unclear in many cases. Whether this issue is the full justification, or not, it certainly facilitates usages that sound strange to many like (in the US) you all, y'all, you ones, "yunz", you guys, etc.
You forgot "youse", as in "youse fellas". Admittedly, it's not exactly common now.
You beat me to it. The second person plural possessive and personal pronouns are sorely missing in modern English, and it is totally obvious in the fact that so many people are struggling to find a solution, but it eludes them. Now we're stuck with bizarre creations like you mentioned. I've heard "all y'all" too.
@@ruralsquirrel5158 Yes, because y’all has been around long enough that it too is morphing into singular use. Arrrgghhh, ENGLISH!
You forgot "you'all" and "all you'all" from the Native Floridian dialect. We do not slur our words with the NASCAR accent. All you'all will hear every vowel and syllable, plus all the Rs.
@@ruralsquirrel5158 I don’t think it is that sore or difficult for native English speakers, but certainly challenges those who grew up with it in their native language when they try to learn English
Thou hast given me clear insight in the usage of these words. I cannot thank thee enough. 😊
The Quakers used to get in trouble in England for using "thou" when talking to officials and dignitaries. Their logic was that all people are equal before God, but the nobles and judges saw it as a sign of disrespect. They were also big supporters of abolition and women's rights before those ideas were popular. For a group that never had much of a headcount, they had a disproportionate impact on history. Pretty badass, in their own way.
I like to keep words alive. I often use daren’t and thou in conversation (amongst others).
I'm pleased to hear you point out that thou and thee still exist in a number of dialects. Only recently I was reading something (maybe even another TH-cam video) which claimed they died out centuries ago. Well I'm sure my hearing isn't that bad when listening to (e.g.) broad South Wiltshire. It's a shame these dialects are becoming rarer these days though.
Still used every day in the natural speech of the people of Pontefract in West Yorkshire but not quite (as Rob pointed out) using the formal forms. Thou is usually rendered as "tha" however thee is usually the same. So for example to tell someone they are a bit rude you might say "tha's a rait un thee". Or another example "have you quite finished?" Is " 'as tha dun?"
For me as a German I have absolute no stress to follow the conjugation and declination tables. Makes total sense to me. :D But I have to admit that we had the formal/informal pronoun discussion at work just yesterday. XD I am working in a medical field that is still very eager to keep hierarchies. My boss is actually very emotionless if she is referred as Sie (formal) or du (informal) by the colleagues. But in the “old” times Sie was mandatory. It was believed that it was harder to say “Sie Idiot” than “du Idiot”/ that is was easier to keep being professional by using the formal language.
Good news for German learners - using the formal pronoun is much much easer than the informal Du because the verb just looks like the infinitive form. Just start of with the formal pronoun and people will let you know if they are fine with the Du. ;)
As a German learner right now, I find this very relatable and helpful. The Sie form and the Modalverben are saviours!
I studied German at university in the U.S., and it was indeed easier to use the formal Sie at first. This made the German exchange students smile because it sounded so strange to hear us using Sie with other students, but they were happy to help us practice the Du conjugation. Now speaking fluent German and having lived in Germany for nearly 40 years, I look back on that time and smile at myself! 😊 These days I feel a bit odd when we're told to use Du at work, but only because I'm nearly 60 and not accustomed to younger colleagues that I don't know well addressing me with Du.
We " dutzen" in Hamburg pretty much:)))
As a Dutchy I speak German quite well, but I do indeed prefer to use sie as it's way easier
My late German mother tended to rather use the formal "Sie" with most people because, she said, "Sie Idiot" sounded more serious then when using "du".
I can’t get enough of these videos, where has this channel been all my life
Love that he's teaching us in a snow covered park, feeling cold, but still focused at the task at hand.
This is the most interesting English lesson I've had so far
I’m so lucky I got this in my recommended !! Educational and entertaining and you can tell you love what you’re doing ! Keep up the good work
That's a very nice thing to say. Thank you!
This would have been a good place to explain "Mine" in places like Psalm 121 ("I will lift up mine eyes until the hills").
We still disambiguate a/an based on whether the next word starts with a vowel. It used to apply to my/mine, and I assume all the other possessive pronouns.
Another great video. When I teach French to my adult learners, I do mention thee and thou as an example of tu and toi. And I cite some Shakespearean sonnets to illustrate how he uses each and why, "... Is it Thy will that keeps open..." or, "What is your substance, whereof are you made?" and they are always so surprised! But I did not know about ye and you! So thank thee!
Very good recap, just a remark that I do not believe W. Tyndall actually had a choice. Not just English but (nearly) all Western languages use the informal 2nd person pronoun to talk to God and there is a reason for it: that in European languages, the formal singular 2nd person pronoun is a relatively late, development of medieval societies. The formal pronoun comes either from the plural or the 3rd person pronoun. It was (in many languages still is) a complicated, non-neutral, artificial way of addressing someone who shouldn't be just addressed directly, by using an unnatural pronoun and conjugation in the situation. Of course it was typically not used to address people who are close to you. And God is someone whom people address in the most direct way and who is (spiritually) the closest to one.
In the Southern US we still differentiate between "you" singular and "you" plural by the expedient contraction of "you all" to "y'all". "Y'all" is NEVER singular here, though often used as such by scriptwriters, transplanted Yankees, etc. We also differentiate between a part of a group (y'all) or the entire group (all y'all).
I love this, and I've been known to use it myself on occasion, even though I'm British. It makes so much sense and also sounds friendlier and somehow more inclusive than just a dry 'you' :)
Well, _"y'all"_ is just short for _"you all",_ so it wouldn't make much sense to use it in the singular.
I just find it silly that people needed to invent a new plural form when the existing one was already plural to begin with and had a perfectly fine singular form to complement it.
So we have
Thou - unambiguously singular
You - formal or ambiguous (originally plural)
Y'all - unambiguously plural
And in the philadelphia dialect it it “yoose” as in “yo yoose guys”.
On the other side of Pennsylvania, in Pittsburgh, they say “yinz”-a contraction of “you ones”, sometimes pronounced as “youns”.
It's jarring hearing the King James Bible referred to as "niche" while the speaker is using the language I associate with that text alone 😂 I read that version multiple times as a child, so had no trouble with shakespeare later in school while everyone else was trying to figure it out. It's like being a native speaker in two dialects. But I never know if I'm using "thou" correctly any more, because it's been so long. Plus I have a friend who uses what I now know is Quaker Plain Speech sometimes, further complicating things! This was so interesting, thank you!
The niche thing was a joke, Shakespeare isn't niche either he was being tongue in cheek
Haha, love the sanctimonious, self-righteous, pompous and smug expression at 4:00. All perfectly encapsulated in less than a second...Great comedy timing!
Nice one Rob, great video.
I occasionally use the phrase "how be thou?" when greeting someone I know.
BTW, my dad's family is from Yorkshire. 😉😂
Just knew your channel and I'm binge watching it now! Great content!
Suggestion: a video about how English simplified the plural form of (most) words.
You read my mind! It's on the list. Why did children and brethren slip through the net??
or how did English simplify X for (almost) all values of X?
It's so simple there's hardly anything left but a dictionary. That's why we need people to informally explain what a case system is--that's the proof, given that English is still technically an inflected language!
I’m so glad there are people like you in the world who actually knows this stuff 🤣. In high school I absolutely hated English class, but learning the exact same facts thru TH-cam 15 years later is truly enjoyable 😁
As a writer I did not know just how much I needed this information thou hast taught me and I thank thee. Thumbs up.
As you say, I am very glad we have lost the formal/informal second person, but I would prefer that we (and that is not the 'royal we', that can be singular) were still to retain the distinction on singular and plural 'you' and 'thou'.
I live in France and use the language, however when I write in English to one of my English children, I really miss an easy way to directly address just one without referring also to their siblings. So I use the single word 'tu' or 'vous', within the sentence which they do now comprehend well....... so alas we have lost something in simplifying our English vocabulary.
There I was thinking I was pretty up to speed on all this, but you reminded me that I never did learn the specific usage of "ye". I'm glad to know it's nominative and hopefully I'll remember that. I've always found the King James Version of the Bible to be a beautiful text, and videos such as this have made it much more accessible.
One of the more informative and fascinating videos that I have seen in long time. It reminded me of the southern US usage of "y'all" which is plural but is used with one person ONLY when the speaker means to include someone else when speaking to one person.
What an extremely interesting video. I shall certainly watch more of these in the future.
Thank you Mortyn. If you have any podcasts or anything, I would be happy to listen to them.
This video feels more current and meaningful to me than thou mayest imagine. I'm a native of the United States; a land so large and with so many regional dialects that many of us have to study other US dialects before traveling to a different part of our nation just to have somewhat of a grasp of the similarities and differences among terms such as "Y'all", You'uns" and "You guys". At least for myself and for mine own utterances, it's important to me that my words indicate my intention of friendliness and respect.
Also, personal pronoun preferences are a hot topic in the US at this moment. Many Americans want to get rid of all gendered pronouns so that speech doesn't include a gender assignment...and as many are upset at the idea of calling everyone a "they" or "them". We don't yet have a solution to this language conflict. My partial solution is that most people have no objection to the first-person pronouns one would use in a personal conversation. We can all call ourselves "I" or "me", call the person to whom we speak "you", and perhaps once some rapport has developed, we can call the two of us "we".
These are just tiny elements of speech, but they are elements that make a difference in how people hear the conversation; formal or informal, speaking about, at, or with someone, expressing a respectful request or an imperative command can all come down to which pronouns one uses.
I pray that with these simple words I have conveyed to thee the import I find in this, thy chosen subject for examination. I thank you for both your choice of a good subject and for the respectful manner in which you approach it.
Ya'll English folk is okay by me.
Interestingly, "ya'll" is relatively recent. Mark Twain, Andrew Jackson, and Jefferson Davis probably never heard it, let alone used it.
You cannot forget all y'all.
Rob, thank you for explaining the usage of “Thou.” I’d known that it used to be the informal form of “you,” but was confused as to why “Thou” was used in reference to God. Thanks to you, that’s been nicely cleared up. Keep up the great work!
Very very few Quakers use old English today. It had a major die out in the 1940s. Only a few old folks used it, and now practically none.
A very fine presentation, thank Thee
So "thou" could be as the "vos" we use in Argentina. In spanish the way to say "you" is "tú", but in Argentina and Uruguay we have a different and exclusive way to say it, that is "vos". Also used on informal way.
I have started to watch your videos since a couple of them, and are fantastic. I've learnt a lot. Keep on with your amazing work. Greetings from Argentina friend!
Tú=thou informal who disappeared in Middle Age then came back strongly
Vos = you plural, then formal, who took the place of thou, and disappeared after the colonisation of America and only remained in some places.
Vosotros = y'all, appeared pretty late to distinguish vos plural and singular. Vos only stayed for singular then and Vosotros for plural.
Usted= since vos was no more formal, usted , contraction of vuestra Merced (your grace), took its formal place
Ustedes = plural form of usted to be formal, currently taking the place of Vosotros in a lot of Spanish-speaking countries.
I hope I explained well ;)
@@poliorcetix979 I've just noticed that "vosotros" seems to be a contraction of "vos otros", or literally "you others" in English. Seems to be a fairly logical way to construct a plural.
"Ustedes" is just an ordinary plural form of "usted", adding -es to the end of a word to make it plural, very similar to English plurals. Incidentally, Usted/ustedes also messes with conjugation, analogous to you vs. thou. It also seems to mess with word order, where in contrast to most pronoun cases, which come before the verb, usted seems to usually follow the verb.
In Portuguese we have the equivalent “você”. Curiously, we from south Brazil (your neighbors) almost only use “tu”. Btw in Colombia they use vos in some parts too.
@@Keldor314 I am not fully qualified to explain this, but - as far as I know - Usted (in writing abbreviated to Ud.) is a shortened version of Vuestra merced (in writing abbrev. to Vd.). This means literally Your Grace or Your Mercy, and is the most polite way to turn to a king or queen or any superior. The equivalent in Br. English is Your Majesty or Your Highness (in Am. English they never had Royals). Therefore Usted is the polite way of saying "you" to the respected person using the third person form. Probably this is the reason for confusion with second and third person forms, and with the order SVO or VSO. Pls mind that this is also typical in other languages, although the courtesy forms may differ.
When I went to Colombia to visit friends I had made on line, about 12 years ago, I don't think anyone used Vosotros. They tended to use tu (singular informal), usted (singular formal) and ustedes (all plural). I'm not sure if that was general, or just the people I met. Actually, much of the time, the pronouns were not used at all. So "How are you" translated as "Como estas" (informal), "Como está" (formal), and "Como estan" (plural).
That was interesting. A lot of the uses of thou/thee/thy/thine I figured out through reading how they were used in the King James and Shakespeare. But the bit that I didn’t pick up was the plural ye as subject and plural they as object. That is confusing.
I'm so thankful for this video, cuz I'm not a native speaker so there are many things i don't know about your language and one of those was this, i was reading the bible and I found those words and I couldn't understand a lot because of those words, but now I got it. So thank you.
Amazingly enough I know all this just from being raised in Church, reading and teaching the KJV of the Bible. I have no idea what the grammar rules are specifically but I do know what sounds right next to these words and the right one just comes naturally.
one thing that struck me. In one of your other videos you mentioned how "Ye" was actually "The" with "Y" being very similar letter coming from runic, simply meaning "Th". And "You" seem awfully similar to "Thou" if you follow the same logic.
The very first thing I thought when I saw the introduction to this was it's thorn, right? Tell me it's Thorn! (Thorn being the name of the old runic letter). But somehow I actually find the real explanation more satisfying.
In the Spring of 1970 I was in Paris on Palm Sunday and heard some wonderful music from a small church. When I stopped in they were reading the Passion. This American high school kid's French wasn't all that good, but I followed along. I understood most of it but could not figure why they would _tutoier_ all the time. The French use _tu_ in speaking to god. This makes the Tyndale story a bit weak. When you speak to god you are speaking to your BFF.
Have you done a will/shall episode? I so often have to explain the differences to my students (I teach singing and lots of texts from lots of periods come through). We _shall_ overcome. I _will_ prevail.
I think that in French the use of tu for God is probably also due to the stress on his singularity
@@livrowland171 There goes the whole idea of a trinity.
@@livrowland171 The Germans use 'du' to God as well. Same in the Nordic countries.
I've just recently found your channel but your videos are so fascinating!
I am a 59-year-old Quaker from East Yorkshire. I went to a Quaker boarding school in York. Neither at home nor at school did we use anything but 'you'. I was brought up largely by my grandmother who was born in 1893 in Ilkley, North Yorkshire. Living to one hundred years old, she never left Yorkshire in her life. However, when my (southern English) husband met my grandmother, I had to translate for him; even though she used 'you', he scarcely understood a word she was saying. I had not realised how blithely one can slip unawares into dialect when 'back home', in any culture.
Oρίστε! That was a very creditable Yorkshire of yours at 5'24". Bravo!
Hey Rob. Was just wondering at the Ye, which you referred to in an earlier video. The `Y` was said to have ergonomically replaced `TH` from the AS Futhorc to accommodate natural change and the printing press. Is this another way of reading (?) the word Thou in it`s formal, You? Likewise with Ye and Thee? If that`s the case, would we ever be saying Yine? And, could we refer to thy as Thth or YY (I had a laugh at this one). In the Black Country, where I survive, natives are inclined still to use Thou or Yow, for You. As an aside, Ay, Bay or even Bisn`t is used for aren`t. Likewise Bist is used for are. It`s a wonderful world.
While that would make sense, it's not the case.
In the case of "ye" for the definite article (as in "Ye Olde Red Lion"), the original spelling was "þe", where the letter thorn represented the "th" sound. As Rob explained in his video, how this letter was written gradually morphed until it was nearly indistinguishable from a "y", which is why it came to be spelt that way.
"Ye" for the nominative second-person plural (as in "ye of little faith") was originally spelt "ȝe". In this case, the letter yogh was always pronounced with the "y" sound. Again, changes in writing style lead to it becoming difficult to distinguish from the letter z (when written with a tail at the bottom). However, in this instance instead of retaining the visual appearance (which would have led to it being spelt "ze", like how "Menȝies" became "Menzies"), the spelling was changed to match the pronunciation.
Regarding "bist": I've heard it used before, and it always struck me that it's the same as one of the German words for "are" (e.g. "Du bist eine Person"). When I eventually got around to reading about it, I learnt that it's the equivalent of "be-est" (like with "thou art"), which makes a lot of sense. It's always fascinating and delightful to hear these holdovers from when English was a lot less standardised, and a significant portion of the lexicon would have changed as you moved from region to region.
A wonderful world, as you say.
@@TheJamesM Whilst my comment was more tongue-in-cheek, I really appreciate your reply. Very interesting. Thank you.
@@thekarmafarmer608 Sorry - rereading I can see that now. It can be hard to tell online!
@@TheJamesM As beautiful as our language is, it still is in the process of accommodating modern formatting, I suppose. Such a fantastic subject though. As I get older I`ve become more and more fascinated by it.
Thou, thee, thy = ty, cię, twój (in Polish). They are spoken almost the same, are used the same and of course mean the same. German examples of du, dich, dein are spoken far more differently, albeit they still bear somewhat recognizable similarity.
A question arises: which is the original? As a speaker of several languages, I opt for Polish based on observation (and some History, too - king Harald and stuff). I see Poles learn to speak both EN and DE fast, yet know of no German or English who grasped Polish quickly. This might (mind you, might) suggest a one-way similarity. On the same token, I met French, American, English, and Germans who learned fluent Russian, Polish, Czech and even Hungarian - which I for one still cannot speak fluently to this day. To sum up, old English usage of thy, thee, thou stroke me as patently Polish when I first read it at the age of four, or five. You sounds formal, borderline unnatural to me. You is BTW far closer to the German du. Both have long [u:].
After having learned German for about 4 years now, I found this video incredibly intuitive. I wouldn't mind going back to that. It'd probably be easier for non native English speakers to learn too.
This was incredibly entertaining and educational video. And I love your sense of humour. Thank you so much! :) While English is only my 5th language and I've been learning it for the past 30-ish years, nobody has really explained the differences as clearly as this here video, so again, thank you.
Probably because most native English speakers don't really know how to use the archaic pronouns.
I am surprised you started with the informal/formal distinction when the original thou/ye distinction was simply between singular and plural forms. The informal/formal distinction developed later, as it did in other languages such as French (tu/vous).
Great resource :)
When I was a camp counselor last summer, I had a non-binary camper who used thou/she pronouns-so bringing back old pronouns as neopronouns :)
Wow! There's hope yet!
I had always hear that God was addressed as Thou because one is supposed to have a confessional/personal relationship with God.
The unambiguously singular makes sense though, although the Trinity aspect might make one desire the plural .
But as someone who studied German, it's fairly straightforward. Thou being tbe analog of du.
I've never read Shakespeare and I was rubbish at English in school, I never knew the English language could be so interesting, thank you.
I've noticed that in hymnody the usual modification of 'thy' to 'thine' when followed by a vowel is not always applied.
Is it an informal rule? Is it purely a matter of taste? Was there a regional variation? Did it change over time?
If thou beest of a kindly disposition, couldst thou explain this unto me? If thou wouldst, then forever would I be in thy debt both for imparting thy knowledge and for granting unto me thine understanding ( ,,,, or thy understanding).
It's not a "before a vowel" thing like "a" or "an". It depends on the position of the possessive pronoun. I'm not sure about the exact terminology, but it works like this:
That is MY dog. The dog is MINE.
The is YOUR dog. The dog is YOURS.
That is HER dog. The dog is HERS.
That is THY dog. The dog is THINE.
That is OUR dog. The dog is OURS.
As you can see, the usual change is to add an S. "HIS" doesn't change because there would be no difference in the pronunciation.
Check out the similarity with MY/MINE and THY/THINE as confirmation of my explanation.
@@scotthargrove990 Hello Scott. Thanks for replying. Forgive me, I didn't explain myself properly. Yes I understand the normal possessive pronoun rules, but what I was wondering is why in poetry or hymnody the rules are sometimes (but not always) broken - seemingly on account of a following vowel. I'll try and find an example or two of such inconsistencies and post them here.
Here are three examples where the normal possessive pronoun rule is modified on account of a following vowel, and one where it isn't. I'm so used to the poetic modification that in the last example (a Wesleyan hymn) it sounds entirely wrong to my ears. Wesley is at least internally consistent since if he were to have written 'thine endless mercies seal' he would also need to have written 'mine acts of faith and love repeat'.
(1) Come down O love divine,
Seek Thou this soul of mine,
And visit it with Thine own ardour glowing.
(2) Give us o Lord thine unction.
Anoint us for thy work.
(3) And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee. (KJV)
(4) Ready for all thy perfect will,
my acts of faith and love repeat;
till death thy endless mercies seal,
and make the sacrifice complete.
@@LostsTVandRadio ah, okay. I was not aware of that. I suppose I've seen it in the KJV but never thought about it, because as you say, it "sounds right". Thanks for the clarification.
Wait - would “thou” and “you” have rhymed??
I didn’t know that you was the formal 2nd person singular. I always assumed you was an evolution of thou. Cool. Thou hast taught me something.
It would be nice that the "thou and thee" were used once again. They sound great.