Do you agree or disagree with my analysis of these games? Did I miss anything that would affect my interpretation? Let me know! If you enjoyed this video and want to help me make a whole bunch more, please consider contributing to my Patreon www.patreon.com/skyehoppers . My goal there is to build towards creating a community centered around critically analyzing but in a casual way, free from the stuffiness and elitism that tends to come with literary analysis in school settings. Here are some fun discussion questions that didn't make it into the script! 1. How do the sequel games contribute to or complicate the message of the originals? I haven't played Black and White 2 since they came out so I honestly have no idea whether or not they follow the same path or take a totally different direction. 2. Do you have any concrete ideas for how a Pokemon game could incorporate more synthesis between the gameplay and the story? Do you think they should? 3. How does the unusual way of meeting the legendary Pokemon, being fought basically in the middle of an elite four run, affect the story and what those legendaries may represent?
I love that idea about having consequences for low friendship values. That's really what the entire series is missing. It's nice that newer games add little in-battle benefits for having happier Pokemon, but there's no obligation to not treat them like trash. The only real thing UNfriendliness changes is the power of a few moves, one of which actually gets stronger (Frustration). It'd be cool if friendship could go into the negatives and make Pokemon slack off or fall asleep on you in the middle of battle, like what not having enough gym badges does.
1.I would say the sequels expand on the intended message, by having a better compromise between an one dimensional evil team and characters that challenge the worldview, as a result of Team Plasma's schism. Instead of having supposed well-intentioned extremists, you have your hardened criminals who were, like Ghetsis, only part of the organization to advance their own agenda, and the genuinely well-intentioned people who Ghetsis duped and who are actively trying to make amends for their actions. 2.They actually did do this in small ways, such as Ghetsis' BW team appearing to be specifically constructed to counter N's team. The implication is made clear in BW2 and again in USUM through the alternate universe Ghetsis who became part of team Rainbow Rocket: the moment N ceases to be useful to his adoptive father, he dies. What makes Ghetsis an outstanding villain is that he shows no aversion to murdering someone directly, which is of course big in a children's game. He's the opposite of everything he claims to be in BW1, and in BW2 and USUM, he is free to show it off, even taking full advantage of his Hydreigon's minimum friendship using Frustration in BW2. His Hydreigon hates him. He embodies pure evil in a way that not even Giovanni does. He probably wasn't the best villain for BW1, as his presence led to most of the problems you cite with Team Plasma being hypocritical and detracts from the attempt to have a morally grey pokemon game, but nevertheless, he's a great villain and a genuinely good character.
Okay this a super insightful comment, thank you! It honestly makes me excited to finally revisit B/W2 as it seems from your comment and a couple others that there will be a good amount to talk about there. The hydreigon having minimum friendship in b/w2 is a super cool little detail that I probably wouldn't have noticed myself, so thank you for bringing it up!
@@Skyehoppers I mean yeah, the friendship value of another character's pokemon isn't exactly something the game tells you. It's one of those details that you can only find in the code of the game, but which is great attention to detail on the part of the devs.
@@Skyehoppers I'd definitely watch this part two as well, the whole of this video was really well said, and I love listening to people with interesting stuff to say about my favorite games.
I think what BW needed to give N's arguments some nuance was giving the player a Paul's Chimchar situation. Give the player a Pokémon that has been abused, and it's up to you to raise it after it's been abandoned. Throw in small additions like having the Pokémon express discomfort, refuse an order, or even run away out of fear, would make for an interesting experience because the game would be purposely giving you a liability to your party. It's a test to see if you have the patience to prove N wrong. If you box it and leave it at that, you'd be proving N's point in that humans treat Pokémon like tools they can just throw away whenever they want. But if you can raise it's friendship level, treat it with love and affection, and make it trust you, then it would make N seeing that Pokémon and humans can coexist that much more meaningful.
That sounds like a really cool idea. Maybe have it be 75% obedient unlike the 50% obedience of overleveld traded mons, and have N give you the option to have an abused pokemon on your team, giving you the choice to turn him down so you aren't forced to raise it on numerous playthroughs(and therefore influence your interactions). Having the option to turn him down makes training the pokemon to evolve past its traumas and become a truly powerful pokemon even more inspiring imo. And they could even make it a pre-gen 5 pokemon, so you don't have the option to box it and get a more agreeable pokemon of the same species anywhere else in the game. I really hope they try something like this in the BW remakes(assuming they aren't remasters like BDSP are)
Good in theory, bad In execution. I mean if there’s exp share maybe but I don’t see how one Pokémon and giving N a few more dialogue options would do anything lol like once he sees people and Pokémon as one and not as tools for the other, then what? End game battle? I mean what can that really do ?
@@andrewaguayo115 It would give N's development at the end have some meaning, considering his whole "different perspectives on the world" meant next to nothing when in the context of the story, he's just wrong with nothing backing up his world view that humans and Pokémon cannot coexist. The entire point of this hypothetical abandoned Pokémon thing is giving the core message of BW a chance to practice what it preaches.
interesting? yes it is.but i can only see it working if that pokemon was like,your starter pokemon(snivy/tepig/oshawott) as if it was like an random pokemon,it would be basically gaslighting the player as "i dont wamt to use this pokemon in my party,but i would feel like a piece of shit if i dont" and as someone who likes his team variety very much,it would be cool at first but eventually it would just get annoying
I'll never forget the first time I saw Castelia City, it was so mindblowing, B&W/2 are really the pinnacle of the entire series and show you don't need to change the formula just add depth something I wish they kept going instead of trying to change what worked. Great stuff!
They haven′t really changed much besides the Let′s Go catching system, the Island Trials and some battle gimmicks. P:LA is a lot more different, yes, but that ain′t a problem. People were getting more and more unhappy with stagnation, so a game that changes the way battles play out while retaining the core system and adding open areas is a fine evolution if you ask me.
@@speedslider3913 tho they changed a lot in terms of gimmicks, mega evolution worked, Z moves and Gigamax not so much, they could've added to those instead of changing them for something else, P:La not having any gimmick (probably styles but they feel like core features) and having open world areas felt fresh compared to other titles, i wonder how would gen 9 compare to gen 8 considering we're getting an open world game
I find the in real life division of the fan base as evidence of the effectiveness of the story. I like to compare this to Ghetsis' ideology he pitched to the public. Throughout the game you find people who starkly oppose him like you and your friends, those who agree with him like the Grunts and Zinzolin and those caught in the middle like N. I find the irony of people initially rejecting it and then coming to love it over the years after it's had time to be itself and have it's story digested amusing.
I instantly loved it when I got bw. I got it first week of release I was so excited. I heard all the criticisms but I didn't care. I enjoyed the heck out of it and I was extremely disappointed when XY came out and was nothing like BW. Yet everyone else seemed to love that game which just made me kinda mad and distant myself but that's how it goes.
@@chronic_daydreamer I always really liked the designs. Its one of my favorites other than 4th gen designs. Victini, Bisharp, Cofrigigas, Druddigon are all pretty great. There are some that aren't great but this gen really had them feel like pocket monsters again I'd say. The gameplay is actually probably the best in the series to date I'd say as well. Fun audino grinds when your underleveled, tms you get are really fun this time around since they are reusable (barely used tms in old gens) and hidden abilities can be pretty cool. Also was all around pretty challenging even veteran trainers used competitive teams and bosses were bosses.
@@chronic_daydreamer This is such a smooth brain take, you're delusional if you think Gen 5 designs Suddenly Suck when they follow the conventions of older game designs to a T. Or do you hate literally every other generation designs too?
@@moonlitwyvern6840 Actually, no, some of them didn’t. And some of them were truly awful. But if you wanna defend a trash bag and an ice cream, you go ahead and do that. My take might be smooth brain but at least I’m not head empty like you.
i remember noticing that N uses wild pokemon from wherever you are in battle and being CHILLED by it. i couldn't stop thinking "if N is so wrong, *why do the pokemon come when he calls?* why are they on *his side?* " was very disappointed my question never got answered, lol.
Those Pokémon are like N and most likely haven’t really interacted with society so therefore they may be afraid or may stick to things closer to their nature.
@@tonyluengas8160except a repeat theme in pkmn is that wild pkmn are driven to get stronger and to work with someone to reach that goal, its never explained why some are nervous (anime mostly) but I suppose you could suggest that weaker wild pkmn are anxious around ppl incase they’re driven away as pests or beaten up for training, but in the games wild pkmn are generally aggressive and to explain it lore maintains that pkmn Want a trainer, they just want one they’re compatible with + they consider strong. So for wild pkmn to back up N, it implies a few (possible) things A) the lore is wrong, pkmn don’t actually seek out trainers B) there is division between pkmn C) its just awkward writing from a series whose only way of handling situations is battling Personally I love the idea of B, because they could have had a chance of a pkmn with -neg friendship upon capture, they misbehave and grow slower until they’re into +pos friendship. You Could get rid of it and get a less recalcitrant pkmn, one that wants to be there, Or you could invest your time/energy into showing this pkmn its worth it to be with you. There’s no other reward. Maybe you’ll never win it over, maybe you Are better off releasing it and trying again. It doesn’t undermine N (some pkmn Do want to be left alone, he’s right) but nor does it undermine the player (some pkmn Do want to fight, you’re right) it just shows that the pkmn aren’t a homogeneous group, or, ya know, it isn’t black and white. The system can’t change, not really, because it wouldn’t be pkmn any more, but it Could show you that just because capture/battling is fine, its not fine for everyone all the time.
Thanks you haha that paragraph took me like an hour or more to write. Really felt like that cutscene was the core of the whole game and wanted to communicate that best I could
My biggest complaint that I ever had with the story is that there was no big bad on the ‘good side’. Though I think Alder was necessary, I wish he wouldn’t have been champion. If there could have been a scumbag who was pre-ending silver(I’m not saying Silver did, but the mindset of might =s right) who seemingly abused his Pokémon into fighting harder ended up being champion it would be a much stronger story. You’d get the satisfaction of N being the first trainer to beat him due to his beliefs in Pokémon. Then when you have the post game fight, this abusive champion is beaten and then replaced by Alder. Or even perhaps just having many Pokémon using the move frustration(already in the comments). I feel like they do good at showing that N isn’t blatantly wrong, Team Plasma is. But they don’t go far enough to show he’s right.
That's a good idea! If a gym leader or elite 4 member was found out to have only achieved success through abusive training methods that couldve added a lot of needed depth to the plot. Maybe a character similar to Endeavour from my hero academia?
The anime really tried to do this with Paul from the D/P series, and (given the constraints they had to work with) I really think they were pretty successful. DP was season of the anime that I started with as a kid, and Paul was probably my favorite character, then and now. The whole storyline with his Chimchar, and the thematic conflict between him and Ash, culminating in their League battle. When I finally got a DS, and played the games, I can't tell you how dissapointed I was that Paul was nowhere to be found, and I got Barry instead.
Isn't the whole point that N isn't 100% right though? The idea behind Black and White is that life isn't just Black and White, and Truths and Ideals shouldn't be something separated. In my eyes; N represents Ideals more then Truth. He has his own code of morality and his own set of ideals and views towards how Pokémon and human should see each other, but he fails to see the full picture for most of the story that Pokémon being captured and battling is a more nuanced subject then just "Pokémon battling bad". Because there's evidence within the universe itself that Pokémon battling isn't evil, it's not morally wrong. But it's also not perfectly clean either. I feel like if you leaned too hard into N being 100% correct, you'd lose the whole nuance of the story, or at least what they're going for. Am I saying there couldn't have been someone will ill intentions on the side of the player/not with Plasma? Of course not, but I think it would be best if even regardless of that you don't go with the idea that N is always correct.
better yet, the campion being be a LOT like Paul, but with many differences to make him a unique character which, while it would be difficult yes, but it would not impossible
17:00 Don’t forget. It’s based on Yin Yang. The whole point is that it’s not supposed to just be one or the other. Just because you’re good doesn’t make N and his beliefs evil.
It doesn't mean his beliefs are evil, it means that within the world, his beliefs are wrong for how the society is. And honestly, the Yin Yang symbolism doesn't do much to actually help the game in any way, as there isn't really any equal, opposing forces, the player, who is right, always wins, and that's how it has been in every Pokemon game. It's why telling such a story like this is difficult for a pokemon game, lest they make it more mature and then "not for kids" by actually instead portraying Unova as morally grey, but it isn't, it's good, it's a utopia.
In Taoism Yin and Yang are essential. You cannot have one without the other. The Idea is that you and N learn from each other and others to become complete.
One extra thing about Ghetsis, his Hydreigon has a happiness value of 0 and it is rumored that his Hydreigon is the pokemon that took out his eye and made him need a patch. I wish the happiness value would've been acknowledged in the actual game instead of having to dive into the code for it.
@@Skyehoppers goes to show how N was raised to believe that these situations of pokemon being abused and unhappy with their owners is even more to the contrary than we may have originally thought as specifically Ghetsis had the largest part in raising N out of all of team Plasma. My thought about the Hydreigon is that maybe it tried to fight back against some of the abuse from Ghetsis and got beaten or something along the lines as a result.
27:05 perhaps a solution to this could be the appearance of the player’s dragon at the castle. All the way back to the bell, since it’s earlier in the game: if the overall friendship level back then is below a certain point, the dragon won’t appear. This doesn’t change much. N’s still being used by Ghetsis, and you still have to beat them both, just without Zekrom/Reshiram on your side. It just makes you… not as right as you might’ve otherwise believed. Just picture it. You ring the bell, and a weak chime is all that comes out. N asks your pokemon if they’re happy, and he doesn’t necessarily like the answer; it doesn’t shake the foundations of his beliefs like the canon moment does. You’re not a bad guy, just not a morally perfect person. And yet, you still beat him, the pinnacle of morality. And if everything he believes is skewed, everything you believe can’t be right either. Obtaining the legendary dragon would be relegated to the post game in this case. Maybe making Team Plasma a little more ambiguous would help too. They’re just comically evil 😭 mfs were out there kicking puppies and shit. Just making *some* of the grunts genuinely believe in the cause would change the perception we have in TP as a whole. Take all this shit with a grain of salt, I am literally just vibing. I enjoyed this video a lot, your editing is really good!
Actually that's a super cool suggestion! That would work really well I think. Maybe especially if you put the bell on top of dragonspiral tower rather than celestial tower.
I remember the sting of N's argument hit harder for younger me coming right off of Soul Silver where I could just turn around and ask my Pokemon how it was doing whenever I wanted. Going back to the apparent silence was hard and unsteady, and certainly the story did make me consider the world of Pokemon differently from then on. I see the listed points though. The story could have worked with the gameplay better to make what was already a strong experience even stronger. I knew it was flawed back in the day, but it was timed pretty well with my own adolescence, a time of uncertainty and fear, and it is still one of the few games I've ever played that brought a tear to my eyes when the credits started. I dunno if it's stretching on behalf of younger, jaded me, but the note you ended on was in a way part of why I loved gen 5 too. There are well meaning people with good intentions and pivotal roles in the greater clash of good versus evil, all the grey in the middle, and the mess humanity repeatedly finds itself in, and hovering over all of it is the status quo, held almost violently in place by seemingly evil people who want control. We all got to see them when the well meaning one tried and failed, and after that respite, the bad guy still gets away. ...I suppose at least it's good that the real life evil people don't have pet ninjas to haunt you relentlessly while you explore the postgame.
That's a great point about HGSS. In a game where the specific feelings of Pokemon are actually plot-relevant, they removed a mechanic that existed in its direct predecessor that told you those feelings. Huh...
19:30 I feel like this is only demonstrated in the second fight, where Cheren uses held items to get an advantage over you. I feel like Cheren could be the perfect character to communicate the game's complex combat system, but in the end he just ends up being another rival
Yeah another person brought that up! They could have taken that idea so much further, and the fact that he uses held items when Bianca doesn't proves that the devs had at least come cool ideas in that direction.
This was a fantastic critique of black and white! I remember when I was 11 years old playing these games and feeling like it was one of the first times I was treated "seriously", and it was by none other than N; he was a character that had his own ideas but after confronting me multiple times slowly understood how 11 year old me saw the world of Pokémon and it felt nice, especially when as a young shy boy I couldn't really make my voice heard. (Also I wish I could be as wonderstruck as I was back then going trough every patch of grass and finding new pokemons) I really liked the way you edited this video, not too overbearing but complemented the script really well, I didn't even realized it was half an hour! I'll surely catch more of your videos :)
Holy crap the transition at 5:05 was freaking awesome, especially in combination with talking about playing with perspective, just one example of countless editing brilliances, amazing vid man, you’re criminally underrated
I disagree with the statement that N is portrayed as wrong and the player character is perfect because it eliminates the human element. You the player are supposed to be asking the same questions as N. I believe N is portrayed as a man who's learning and It's you the player that's confronted with new ideas from N while it's the story that introduces new ideas to N. Depending your version you are shown imagery that conflicts with your dragon. In white version you are shown imagery of an older world, but in the end you are supposed to wield the deep black dragon of Ideals. A more forward thinking mindset than that of N and his vast white dragon of Truth.
That's a really solid point! You're right that how the player interacts with the ideas presented doesn't depend on how the story itself ends. We are free to take what we like from them, which is kinda what makes art great. And yeah I never of that contrast between the opelucid city in your version versus what your dragon represents. Excellent insight!
The issue I have is that there is no real basis for the questions N is trying to get you to ask other than the real world. And BW is a terrible representation of the real world animal fighting issue. When are we ever shown that N has a point? Without something as simple as that there is no reason to be asking the same questions as N.
@@Ash_Yu That covers what I do think is an issue about Unova's lore. You have to go and find it and most of the ways you do find it is optional, Tedious or both. You're forced to explore to make the gist of the game makes sense beyond a surface level.
@@Ash_Yu Hilariously enough the most of a point N has comes from the Pokemon Ranger games as all 3 Ranger games play in Regions were Pokeballs are actually banned and the Rangers that use devices to communicated there emotions to pokemon act as both law enforcement and peace keeper between Pokemon and Humans. Meaning the Ranger games do show that a different approach to the world one with out Trainer fights is not only possible but actually already realized in some parts of the world. Obviously couldn't Gamefreak actually bring this up as it would genuinely put the main line titles of the franchise into a rather awkward position but I still find it funny that its there.
"Its hard to think of a more vulnerable position than trapped in an enclosure, hundreds of feet in the air with the king of a group that is no stranger to cruelty" 13/14 y.o. me during this scene, when I first played the game 10 years ago: o///o
Loved this video! I think regardless of how successful they were, Black and White deserve props for being the first (and last) attempt Pokemon would make to grow up with its audience. Obviously it's still a game accessible to young kids but the fact it even tries on a surface level to ask conflicted questions about its own world is amazing. Wish they could have sold better, it might have meant this type of game being developed on and improved with each subsequent generation. I guess we can thank people on gamefaqs complaining about "the trash bag pokemon >:(" for that never happening. It's also not at all surprising that following these games, they released a sequel that entirely scraps the "only new Pokemon" thing which made Unova unique, and the following generation is some of the most shallow writing and blatant nostalgia pandering the series has seen to date. Capitalism baby!
Yeah, exactly! While I have some problems with BW, I think if the same writing team had been given several more games to keep being weird and ambitious they would have ended up smoothing out the issues and making some really awesome work. Too bad thats not our timeline...
Yeah! It really sucks, and you can tell that it's been pandering to the "old" ways ever since gen 6 by the blatant love and adoration that the gen 1 Pokemon have gotten since with 9 gen 1 Pokemon getting megas (2 which each got 2 different mega forms), 34 of the 53 Regional Variants have been gen 1 Pokemon, and 12 of 33 Pokemon that can Gigantamax being gen 1 mons. And don't get me started on the Charizard love. Fortunately, it seems that with Arceus, Pokemon looks like it's starting to be less and less about the blatant gen one favoritism, and it also looks like they're willing to test out new ways of playing, which would hopefully lead into more divergence in current main-line Pokemon stories as well
It is worth noting the coincidence of the Galar region having many Unovan regional forms, which unfortunately feels like a concession that Gen 5 were the best games (given that the game tried to tell a story about an energy crisis) but that it would never repeat whatever Gen 5 did. Out of pessimism, it may just reference England’s and the US’s history.
Gen 1 legit has some of the worst designs in pokemon. Every generation has had bad pokemon designs, and Gen 5 DID NOT have the biggest number. Geodude line are just rocks, rattata line, ekans line, mankey and primeape being nearly identical in design, dewgong barely looks like a pokemon if not for the horn on its head, muk/grime, voltorb/electrode... the list goes on. These are all pokemon designs that most people would not consider very good, and consequently these pokemon aren't very well remembered.
@@iantaakalla8180 I think it also has to do with James Turner, the lead art director for Pokémon Sword and Shield, getting his start at Gamefreak designing Pokémon for Gen 5! He originally designed the Vaniluxe, Golurk, and Mandibuzz lines, and so it’s probably a region that really matters to him. Sorta like how kids who grew up playing Pokémon sometimes say their favorite game is the one they first played. Along with the fact that Gen 5 is up next in the cycle for remakes and homages, I’m glad Gen 5 Pokémon are getting the love they deserve.
This kind of blew my mind with the realization that in EVERY Pokemon game, not just BW, defeating the villain doesn't fundamentally change ANYTHING. You are the hero for restoring the status quo. There's a small part of me that wonders what that says about the Pokemon games being developed in an environment with a heavy concentration on putting society before the individual, but I feel like I do not have nearly enough education in sociology to make any resounding conclusions.
26:33 I've found that, from my view, there's a reason pokemon work the way they do. (long post incoming) 1. Pokemon enjoy battling. It is part of their nature. It is the only way they grow stronger: by battling. It's a fundamental part of their physiology and they love to do it, like how humans like to work out. Yes, working out hurts, but it makes you stronger. It's also likely that pokemon naturally have a much higher pain tolerance than humans. Also, pokemon grow strongest when paired with a human partner. It's a symbiotic relationship. 2. Capturing pokemon is an interesting subject. Pokemon enjoy battling to show off their strength and prowess, and they only want to be the pokemon of a trainer who is worthy in their eyes. As such, Pokemon will only allow themselves to be captured by a trainer who proves their worth and strength. If a pokemon truly does not want to be captured, they will just attack and kill the trainer. 3. Almost all pokemon are in their situation by choice. It's shown multiple times that pokeballs are not locked. a pokemon captured within can burst out whenever it wants even if its trainer doesn't like it. If a pokemon does not like its trainer, it will kill them, or escape. The only reason why a pokemon couldn't do this is if its a baby, like that munna. But if a trainer abuses its pokemon, eventually that pokemon will kill them. Like James and his Magikarp. He was terrible to it, and then when it suddenly evolved into Gyriados, it tried to kill him. Pokemon ARE NOT people. They are stronger than us and have agency in strength that they could use if they desired. But I 100% agree with your video. It was very enjoyable to watch. I was just explaining why I think the pokemon world works how it does. Not to say it would be wrong to take a different view point.
Thank you! And yeah you have good points and I mostly agree with them. I think it's fine that Pokemon battles are portrayed as good. Not everything has to be an analogy for the real world that would be exhausting. BUT like if the game itself is going to draw that comparison, then it should maybe take the morally ambiguous nature of it a little more seriously. And a lot of why we *feel* like these systems aren't harmful is because of external media like the anime, rather than evidence within the games themselves. The games are never really willing to characterize the Pokemon to the same extent. It's messy! Thanks for the thoughtful comment that made me reconsider my perspective a bit
@@Mqstodon It's probably terrified of him and has some personal worth issues. It was raised by ghetsis from a deino, so chances are Ghetsis had years to condition it to know that "if you bite me, you get hurt"
I'll be the first to admit that Black and White were far from my favorite games, but I LOVED what they tried to do with the moral ambiguity. Also, Ghetsis was and still is the only antagonist boss to actually make me nervous and maybe even a little scared, not because of his strength but because of what he represented.
I can respect the immense amount of effort put into every facet of BW/B2W2, and at least *trying* to tell a compelling narrative, even if it didn't pan out exactly perfectly. It's high and above what other games in the series even attempt. Particularly with XY and SwSh, despite having moments that seem "mature" on the surface, they still come off extremely shallow. That's why I think gen 5 is the best gen. Even if it couldn't go all the way, it got pretty darn close.
The amount of effort put into gen 5 in general was abysmal Removed the battle frontier with absolutely nothing to compensate. The story is nonsensical, Ghetsis's goal of having a member beat a league through that for no reason gain authority is idiotic. N supposedly being a genius that can supposedly communicate with Pokemon can't tell his guardian is a liar from looking at the people with Pokemon around him. How do you call this trying? Haven't played SS but I do know XY made sense. Kill the unproductive class of people using a laser, proof of being non-productive is having a lot of money, the only way to join team flare. This places everyone that survives on equal ground, having no reason for conflict or theft.
Gen 5 almost seems like it's written like a fanfic. It brings up good questions that add depth to an otherwise shallow series, and it's got a lot of charm in that way, but objectively it's not incredibly well written. And I still love it regardless. There's been moments or characters across the whole series where, given they were expanded upon to drive the entire story, they could have matched or exceeded BW in storytelling ability. If game freak ever, by some miracle, makes a game with a deep story and makes the gameplay like Legends Arceus then it definitely could be as good or better than BW
This is a really good video! I never gave it this much thought. Maybe giving random trainers the move frustration would implement a solid basis voor N's worldview while still not making the game child-unfriendly. Only people with a some understanding of game mechanics would understand what this means. Altough maybe I'm thinking about this too simply.
No yeah thats a good idea! Little details like that would go a long way. However I was told recently that Cheren uses held items while Bianca doesnt, which makes me think that the developers did want to implements more consistencies between the gameplay and the story but maybe ran out of time
I don't normally comment on videos, but I just wanted to say that this is one of the best video essays I've ever watched. I clicked on it because Black and White are some of my favorite games of all time, and it's always nice to hear people gush about the things you love. But you provided a level of depth in your commentary that I wasn't expecting, and I really enjoyed hearing your perspective. I too have wrestled with the imperfections of Black and White's narrative ambitions. But what I ultimately come back to, and what I think you illustrated wonderfully in this video, is that while on some level disappointing, it makes them really fascinating pieces of art that I will always come back to. And your video made me appreciate them that much more, so thank you for that. Also the editing quality was top notch, really a joy to watch. I'm glad I found your channel, and now I'm gonna go watch your video on Black 2 and White 2!
Loved this video a lot. I’ve always appreciated Black & White for their story but you nailed your criticisms of their shortcomings. Looking forward to more videos from you!
Yeah haha I definitely remembered while editing but I thought it was funny how much less obvious the fourth gen is when you put it next to all the others
Fantastic work here! B&W2 is probably my favorite game to this day so seeing a perspective that gives air to the good Gen 5 tried to show the long-running series while still acknowledging its shortcomings is much appreciated!
Wow, I gotta confess: when I clicked on this video, I was not anticipating this level of video essay analysis. It's instantly gotten me to subscribe. Gen 5 was immediately my favorite ever since I first got it on the DS. I'm glad to see these retrospective looks at it. My own theory about how N is clearly presented as wrong isn't that GameFreak is really anxious about accusations that Pokemon is dog-fighting, and so they felt they had to overcompensate in signalling that N is wrong because they don't want to raise the possibility of something that would undermine the entire foundation of the franchise.
It's interesting too because I think by that point the accusations of Pokemon being abusive had died down quite a bit. Kinda surprising that they acknowledged it at all
These are genuinely the thoughts I have always had about the game, but I could never really put it into words. Seeing it feels like someone is raising my voice and I absolutely love it. I haven’t watched all of the video, but I can already say that I will finish it. Much love man!
This was excellent. It's fascinating how often art made within the dominant hierarchy will reinforce it in ways that I doubt the developers fully intended or thought about, leaving a variety of implications that can be dug in to.
Yeah, exactly! I started writing another section about how this depiction kinda shows a belief that what progressive movements fight for doesn't have any basis in reality. But I cut it because I realized it would require a ton of research that would be better served going into its own video with examples from various pieces of media. Definitely a project I want to tackle someday!
I just finished playing Pokémon Black & White 2, and after watching this video there was something interesting within it that I'd like to mention. In the Post-Game, when you talk to N he mentions that "Someday… Pokémon and humans will be bound together without Poké Balls. They will simply trust and help one another. Make that kind of world." In this sense, I think N represents the compromise. At the end of the game, he leaves and goes on a journey to understand the world better, and after gifting Zekrom/Reshiram to you he tells you to make a world without Poké Balls. Although the world of Unova hasn't changed and hasn't compromised, he still challenges you to change the systems, which ended up being very inspiring to me. I also think that, like you said, it would be impossible for the game to end with N being the victor. Pokémon is bound to the Poké Ball aesthetic. Even if the rules of the world changed with these games, the marketing couldn't follow with it because of how tied it is to that memorabilia. I think a really interesting question to ask is what the reconstruction of Poké Balls and how they interact with the world would look like? Just thought I'd add these things to the conversation. I really enjoyed the video and it definitely challenged my view on the games, just like the games themselves attempted to do. Wonderful work here!
Oooh okay that's super interesting! I'm gonna make an analysis of Black 2/White 2 in the next couple months cause it seems like there's a good amount of stuff in the sequels that complicate/add to the meaning of the first games.
@@Skyehoppers I saw that on the community post, very excited for the video when it releases! I'd also like to mention something else I noticed. It seems to me like a major distinction between BW & BW2's Story is how they view Poké Balls. In BW they're viewed as a way to connect with Pokémon, and at one point of the characters (I can't remember which) said something along the lines of "Pokémon can just leave their trainer's if they so choose". Meanwhile, BW2 flips that on its head, and multiple times N talks about how Poké Balls are still the embodiment of a toxic relationship, and that eventually Pokémon & people should come to understand each other so that we no longer need them. I played them back to back recently, and it was really jarring seeing Poké Balls turn from things that help connect people and Pokémon to something that we should be getting rid of, as if entirely different people wrote these games. I'm really excited for the future videos! BW2 falters on its new characters like Hugh, but I think it has satisfying follow ups to the original cast of characters for the most part. I'd definitely suggest talking to the characters when they're teamed up with you by the way (specifically Bianca in Reversal Mountain & Cheren in Pinwheel Forest) because there's a few interesting bits of dialogue. One of which is from Bianca where she says she's not even sure if she wants to stay the Professor's assistant, which I never learned about until my most recent playthrough, implying that perhaps this isn't exactly where she wants to be and might be aiming to be a Professor? But that's just as guess.
That the game tries to present itself as mature through the themes of "are we abusing our Pokemon" only to later reveal that the champions of these themes were all either ignorant or lying is just.... really really painful to look back on. I feel like BW get such strong praise for it's story based off the premise alone, because in execution the story itself runs away from that premise and turns into a generic "bad guy taking over the world" plotline instead. No, worse than that, like you said the game never tries to convince you that N is right at all. The other plasma grunts are transparent in how evil their true intentions are and we don't ever get to hear the opinions of the Pokemon themselves. We're always TOLD the feelings of Pokemon by other human characters, but there is never an instance when you're battling that a Pokemon, yours or your opponent's, refuses an order because "it's scared" or tries to run away. To sell the BW premise they needed to validate N's belief in some way by actually showing us Pokemon abuse in a memorable way, such as Pokemon showing fear or resentment during a battle, and they needed to confront the issue head on at the end rather than ignoring it because "we gotta team up to take down the clearly evil threat".
I feel like compared to literally any other story in any other form of media, pokemon's story is the equivalent of old cupcakes. They're cute, stale and taste like shit.
If they showed the abuse, then PETA would light them up more. They paid lip service to it because they ultimately couldn't actually hit upon it. Ironically, BW were the games that had the most attention from PETA. Also, Nintendo isn't exactly the best about making characters with more than two dimensions; heck, N is one-dimensional. On the other hand, kids and teens are very shallow in their analysis, and they like the surface-level stuff. It reminds me of the GBA Fire Emblem games, where people still latch on to the edginess or the supposed depth of bad guys such as Zephiel and Nergal, who don't really have any.
During my first playthrough, I really thought that the message I got after ringing the bell was something I legitimately earned after taking care of my team, making sure all of them had a good affection stat. Learning that it didn't make a difference was a bit upsetting.
I think I will forever feel slightly cheated by what pokemon could've been if people didn't knee-jerk react to BW's changes and allowed the developers more freedom to expand on the basic pokemon formula. I feel like the next opportunity we get to reward a radical change of concept (no I don't mean something like open world in SV I mean something more akin to Legends' revamp of the basic gameplay formula) we have to take it. BW offered us that chance but the poor reception likely scarred the dev's, and we only appreciated it when it was too late...
I actually think an easy way to prove N’s point in the story is with Cheren. It’s clear, he striving to be strong and wants to become the champion. If in the story he was really harsh as a trainer, kinda like Paul, that could be a way to not only prove N’s point but also have it hit close to home to the player since Cheren is meant to be a close friend.
It's funny to me that when I was an obsessive fangirl years ago, I treated these games like they're perfect and refused to listen to any criticism. Ironically enough, one of the main themes of BW was to be more open minded and listen to opinions that don't match up with your own, haha.
Saw this on /r/TruePokemon, and wow, shockingly good video. How did you get so good at editing? Pokemon is so popular that it can feel like practically every opinion or analysis is missing something, and is usually just defined by whichever generation they want to argue was actually the best. But this video was filled with great points I had never thought of before yet feel exactly right (never thought about how Bianca and Cheren tie into truth and ideals), and points that were really satisfying to see said so well when they're so under-talked about. Praising BW as the games with the best Pokemon stories has become so popular lately, but nobody seems to acknowledge how fake the questions it asks are, and how meaningless the truth vs. ideals dichotomy is when N's alignment depends on the game you chose. I always felt like the pacing in BW was off - prior Pokemon games structured their evil team encounters with infrequent but large incidents at major locations or bases. Whereas you almost always meet Team Plasma in frequent but minor interactions where a few grunts stole a Pokemon or something, and you never really invade a base or see them doing something big. I feel like this is another missed opportunity to make the worldview they and N believed actually have more weight. The player immediately knows they're actually bad considering all you see them do is steal Pokemon as petty thieves, and running into some more developed scenarios where they actually have more moral grayness would go a long way. Really enjoyed the video. Feels like you got at what makes BW so interesting and stand out in good and bad ways, rather than just looking at it on the surface level. Will be sure to watch the Celeste video tomorrow; that's my favorite game.
Thank you for the kind words :) And yeah I feel that it despite its significant flaws this still is the best story in Pokemon. Theres a legitimately interesting story happening here but it gets derailed by the games needing to not shake things up *too* much and that results in a bunch of half-measures. Thanks again for engaging with my videos so much!
Gen 5 is easily my favourite generation to this day, and this is my favourite analysis of B/W I've seen so far. A lot of the points here vocalise thoughts I've long had about B/W's ambitions and where it fails to meet them. PLASMA GRUNTS I think people actually fall too much for the idea that the Plasma Grunts are a completely unified front with no diversity of thought, it's pretty clear from the little of snippets of dialogue allowed per Grunt that some of them are clearly in on Ghetsis's scheme from the start while others are firmly on N's side and genuinely believe his cause. This is more obvious in BW2 where they get colour-coded as such, but even in BW there's Grunts who don't really do anything hypocritical and make some valid points (trainers categorize Pokémon as weak or strong, that's literally what happens with tier lists!), though they of course go unaddressed. IDEALS/TRUTH 100% agreed on how nebulously the game treats these concepts, the fact that it's just a search-and-replace says a lot about how shallow this aspect of the game is. Personally Black Version makes much more sense to me, N's thoroughly rooted himself in ideals and a vision of how the world should be, completely detached from the truth of what the world currently is (which is that it's already what it should be...). The idea of Reshiram siding with N just makes no sense at all, and honestly Zekrom has as much reason to stand with the player as N. Like you said, the player is perfect, N is wrong. The idea of the is/should dichotomy and their synthesis of a world that COULD be is seriously undermined by the fact that the world as it IS, SHOULD BE and COULD BE are already one and the same, by nature of being a utopia. CHEREN/BIANCA I think the games do a little bit of gameplay and story integration with Cheren and Bianca, you can tell this after beating Burgh and during the postgame, Cheren's team is 2 levels higher than Bianca's during these encounters. It's not a huge deal, but the games have always used the levels of trainers' Pokémon relative to other trainers' Pokémon accessible in the same route/area/segment as a metric of their strength. Preschoolers in Route X will have lower leveled Pokémon than an Ace Trainer on Route X, much like Bianca's levels are lower than Cheren's. Bianca also always relies on Potions during her battles, while Cheren uses Held Items instead. Bianca uses 'crutches' while Cheren uses the more strategic and demanding held items. LIBERATE SOME POKÉMON While N largely doesn't have a foot to stand on, there are still as you say individual cases of trainers being abusive to Pokémon, most obviously with the Evil Teams. The weird thing to me is that the games never really address the status of the Pokémon used by these Grunts, Admins and Leaders. Does Ghetsis still abuse his Hydreigon after BW2? What about Team Rocket, who all use Pokémon as tools? Why does Cyrus have a Crobat, and is it still just stuck in the Distortion World? Why did Lysandre's Pokémon fight to help him in his quest to genocide all Pokémon, including themselves? Why did Lusamine's Pokémon fight for her when she turned into a jellyfish? The games are all about Pokémon, but the Pokémon used by evil teams or other abusive trainers are never really considered at all. Shouldn't the player or some authorities confiscate their Pokémon? Would that be the right thing to do? What if the Pokémon resist, even if it'd be better for them? Actual moral ambiguity that goes completely unaddressed! We often see and hear that Pokémon are very trusting and loyal to their trainers, but we never really deal with the fact that humans will abuse that trust and do something about it, it's always about some big honking legendary Pokémon they want to control instead. We liberate the legendaries, but never the common Pokémon. N VS COLRESS/MAXIE Given the fact that the player has to be perfect and the status quo has to be unassailable, I think what N needed was to not be contrasted with the unassailable player but with another NPC who was on the other side of the scale. Someone like Colress or ORAS Maxie who believes it's humanity's role to take the lead to perfect and bring out the most in Pokémon, someone who thinks that humans are superior to Pokémon rather than partners as equals. Someone not lacking in love for Pokémon, but who earnestly believes that humans are right and it's good that Pokémon are unquestionably obedient, that it's better for Pokémon to prioritize the welfare of humans since it's to the benefit of Pokémon, someone who would have used machinery to dig the Rusturf tunnel. But we only got that when it was too late, and Colress never got to meet or talk with N. And that's a shame. Also, this is starting to sound like a repeat of Teams Aqua and Magma. Maybe ORAS was on to something.
Super cool comment! Sorry I'm only reading it now. "We liberate the legendaries, but never the common Pokémon." is such a strong point that applies to pretty much all the games? Just a few more Pokemon characters with convincing agency would go such a long way. And interesting perspective on Colress! I haven't played B/W2 in a long time but I'm going to make a video on them soonish and I'm excited to see what I think about that character.
The liberation is revealed to be a mask for getsis's true plans of world domination. Because if team plasma are the only ones with pokemon, there would be no one to oppose them. Also, it's nice that N isn't just truth and ideals, but also N represents a grey area in a game of black and white world views.
Having just finished White for the first time a couple days ago, I feel like this really articulated a lot of the thoughts I had while playing! I was so excited when you mentioned how N having to represent both truth and ideals confused the themes of the games, that had been bothering me so much lol. Really stellar editing as well, I'm looking forward to binging your other videos over the next week!
This is such a well put together video. I agree with almost absolutely everything in this video, and honestly this is so fresh just coming off my first ever play through of Black version which I just beat a day or two ago. B/W have become some of my favorite games of all time and while not every theme landed as there was a lot of water left untread the general emphasis on certain ideas and more complex beliefs brought into question was a great way to hook the player. I'd say the mid portions of the game are where it was most evident that not every single ideal would be properly challenged but I was thoroughly surprised when reaching the endgame to discover details such as the divide between Plasma members as some would outright side with Ghetsis and his standing of Pokémon being mere tools while on the other hand...some Plasma members genuinely love their Pokémon and are only a part of Plasma to serve and elevate N to communicate his message to the world. This sort of contrast made me see N in a whole different light as not just a misguided antagonist, but a necessary antagonist to balance out the good and evil of the world by bringing a somewhat unconventional viewpoint. N is perhaps my favorite character in Pokémon not strictly because of the challenges he poses and the questions he asks, but the moral ambiguity he carries by the climax and end, seeing how his world view shattered with just one. single. battle. It isn't merely about the player being a purely perfect representation of truth but instead N discovering the truth and how he responds to it which is what you described as being disappointing; however, I'd argue that it was the perfect setup for how N is treated and implemented in the sequels(no spoilers in case you replay them and do a video on them). N instead of lashing out or digressing in his development and knowledge(which is a common trap so many other "sympathetic" characters fall into) actively steps back to think upon his actions, his potential, and the future at hand. Instead of some unfulfilling resent or hatred towards the player, he is grateful for being saved by you, being saved by the truth. Ghetsis I think was a necessary evil to allow N to keep his purity while still aiding in Team Plamas goal. It made N redeemable without being already aware of his mistakes before the climax. This is all just my interpretation of course but it's interesting to see other perspectives, perhaps the main thing B/W failed to properly acknowledge. Once again, great video and I'm looking forward to seeing more thought provoking takes like this one.
Thank you! Yeah my analysis here very much treats B/W as a stand-alone piece of media, and doesn't take into account any future depictions of N. This made the project small enough for me to finish in a reasonable amount of time, but based on your comment and a few others ended up limiting it a bit. Definitely want to revisit B2/W2 in the future! Seems like it could make things much complicated which is always fun.
@@Skyehoppers I would look forward to that! I'm just experiencing my first ever play through of Black 2 right now actually. There's been a lot less stop-and-go with this one and I'm already 19 hours in so hopefully the story expands the first in a satisfying way. I'm gonna be checking out your Celeste video next, so expect to see me again soon lol
I definitely don’t think it’s the intended reading, but one other way to interpret N’s storyline is as exploring how a worldview centred around one’s own traumatic experiences can be flawed. His past experiences with Pokémon abuse could be considered traumatic, especially taking into account his unique bond with them, as well as the fact that Ghestis has been (presumably) grooming and isolating him to keep this perception intact. This interpretation maybe gives the storyline more credit than it deserves, as it reframes the ending as a positive moment of growth, but I also like the way it frames N; as a trauma survivor honestly doing his best to ensure the harm that was done to him (and Pokémon he is close to) never happens again, and though he is going about it in a way incompatible with the reality of the world he lives in, it doesn’t frame him as evil or villainous, only gentle and considerate. It’s also an uncommon, arguably quite bold narrative choice, and I think it would’ve been interesting to play with more.
Black and white are some of the greatest Pokémon games out there, don't get me wrong I put a *lot* of hours into ORAS (and then went back and replayed Ruby then Emerald). But Black and white are just different, it's world felt a lot more realistic, and the story it told tackled a philosophical question that encouraged multiple points of view.
finished the entire video and was shocked to see it only have 5k views! this is an incredibly high quality work and a really nice insight into the game even amongst so many other black and whte retrospective type videos, great job!
I agree with this video wholeheartedly! While these games are my favorite in the saga, ever since I played them for the first time (back when I was 12) it always bugged me how N never really had a chance, and how the narrative clearly sided with the player character. And that felt *wrong*, even to my 12-year-old mind. I guess this is partly because I related so much to N (raised extremely sheltered, failing to understand people j yet relating to animals, being passionate about physics and science, and the list goes on but that's not the point) but it caused me great dissonance how the game tried to advocate for diversity of ideas while also picking a side. Now that I've grown up, I can see even *more* problems with the games, the stark contrast between what the game is telling you (diversity good, different ideas make the world better) vs. What it is showing you (you are always right, don't question the system). In a way, these games feel like the Tenahu of Pokémon, a more mature installment of a long recognizable saga that tries to tackle the issues that the previous books/games didn't want you to think about, with varying degrees of success. Still my favorite Pokemon games though.
Honestly just reading all the comments from people who connected strongly with the fifth generation makes me think that maybe the writing was more successful than I initially thought! Clearly it left an impact on people and it seems like people remember the ideas it suggests much more clearly than the way it dismisses them.
Honestly banger of a video! Tbh even as a kid playing bw the story always felt like the writers WANTED to tell a very complex and nuanced story with ethics and finding the balance between truth and ideals and all that and have the gameplay reflect that--and then once most of the story was written higher ups/execs went "wait no we cant let any doubt be put in the players mind that catching and battling pokemon is wrong! Rewrite it!" And then the writers had like. Two weeks to edit out all the controversial sounding stuff and finish it up real quick and wrap it all up in a neat bow Also honestly will never be over how many folks now who are yelling at GF to do something different were the same ones who didnt buy BW or BW2 and/or hounded and hated on it for having all new mons/older ones only being available after and just changing things up in general. Like yall are the reason why Pokemon games are in a rut in the first place. Nintendo was afraid something new wouldn't sell and you proved them right. What did you all expect?
Idk, I was a BW1er the entire time(Started with them and liked them the most) and "waking up" to the idea that the games actually were not so great actually makes me agree with the majority that it succeeding would not have been a great thing, even if the alternative we got is suboptimal. And BW2 was always a lot more like the other games in the series from the start, it was not part of BW's attempt to innovate on the fomula.
I think the fact that it's not clear which one of the legendaries is supposed to represent ideals and which truth is the point. The truth is seen as the good and right thing, but in reality is often uncomfortable and scary. Ideals are experienced as how things should be made to be or already are, and it being good that way, but often they are misinformed and incomplete. Many people reject the truth because it does not align with their ideals. Many people reject ideals because they don't align with what the truth appears to be. And often the truth is confused for ideals and ideals for the truth. How things are isn't always how they should be, and how things should be isn't always how they are. Personally I think Reshiram represents ideals. Your own ideals are always thought of as right and good, how things should be, because of course if they weren't you wouldn't hold them. Reshiram gives me the impression of a pure and noble being, or it being supposed to be, which is what your ideals seem to you. Zekrom represents the truth. The truth is often messy, dark and confusing, uncomfortable and often in direct conflict in how things should be, or how you think they should be at least. In the end, which one of those is represented by Reshiram and which one by Zekrom is ultimately up to how you view them yourself. If what you experience is knowing the truth or chasing an ideal isn't something that you can differenciate from your own point of view.
tbh I feel like the plot would have been better suited to a spinoff with its own mechanics systems, and that way it wouldn't run the risk of alienating core fans. Like how legends arceus folds a lot of the energy of the world with people being afraid of pokemon into pokemon being actually able to attack humans out of battles. They have pretty legitimate reasons to be afraid of these forces of nature that could kill them with a breath and chew through their houses. Not sure what mechanics would translate super well to a b&w story though.. something closer to pokemon rangers, maybe? Maybe just go full pet sim and not catch pokemon in balls at all, just befriend them? Not sure. But I feel like there's potential.
Great video. One of the only times this video platform autoplayed onto something great! After just coming off KayJulers video highlighting the good (seasons, music, etc.) you've equally reminded me what I didn't like about the story. Tempted to replay now, knowing the shortcomings in advance I may not bounce off as I did years ago
1:19 the problem is more that these are redundant designs that try to eclipse what already exists instead of building on an established Pokemon with an evolution or form. One of the big reasons why a lot of Alolan forms work is because they invert this dilemma by giving the older Pokemon more complexity and therefore making the blatant copy less heinous
I always hear people say this, but other than a couple examples like Bouffalant I think they did a good job giving the ones character. Woobat has a totally vibe than Zubat, to my eyes
@@Skyehoppers The woobat line and the Beartic line are probably the best example of similar design that still feels decently distinct. Honestly, the move Heart Stamp was even a fairly decent coverage option for a surprising number of Pokemon. I would just much prefer that Bouffalant, Alomomola, Zebstrika, Garbodor and Excadrill were evolutions of older Pokemon rather than stand alone because they just feel like better versions of their originals. Though, its not like I hate most of them anymore since regional variants have largely reversed the damage that most of them have incurred. Still waiting for a Tauros and Luvdisc form
Best Pokémon analysis I've seen on this platform so far, nice job not falling into the common trap of taking the game too literally or too metaphorically but just comprehensively viewing it as a cohesive whole - mostly saying this because I'm sick of channels that take media analysis as an objective science that one can research and form theories about, rather than just viewing art as art
Just wanted to say thank you for this video. For the last few years, BW has been heavily praised. It was my first mainline game and I have a massive soft spot for it. But in recent years it feels like people have been a bit blinded by their nostalgic. BW is fantastic but it's not perfect, it has flaws. Hearing a balanced essay on it is extremely refreshing and managed to do a game that's very close to my heart justice.
Amazing video. not only was this great analysis of the story of b/w, but I've never seen so much creativity poured into the editing alone, keep up the good work.
I think black and white was weird because instead of having a nuisance talk about it they turned them into cartoon villians. Its like in batman when bain was attacking wallstreet and corrupt gothem but then decided he ALSO wanted to blow up the city because reasons.
Great Analysis! I really enjoyed that you brought up a lot of the context in the series for how they were received, why that happened, and how some way or another it led to a big decline in sales. I wonder if it was just DS burnout, I'll cling to that idea cause I love Gen5 haha. I do think there's some really interesting stuff that BW2 build off the storylines and concepts that make them either my fav or 2nd fav in the series.
Thank you! And yeah ds burnout could the reason but at the same time sun/moon sold better even though it was late in the 3ds, a console that fewer people owned. And honestly Id love to dive into B2W2 from the same angle. It's been so long that I hardly remember the plot at this point
i remember N asking you to join him on the ferris wheel and being incredibly disappointed to find out saying yes did nothing. like… yes king!! i see your point!!!! let me join!!!!
19:13 i’m a bit late to the convo since this vid came out 2 years ago but after you beat burgh, you fight bianca and cheren nearly back to back, and iirc bianca is still around lenora’s level while cheren was either the same level or the level after burghs leavanny, but tbf i only noticed this since my team of 2 at the time were lvl 28 or so edit: there’s also moments like when you enter dragonspiral tower (and some point later) where after the first crash, you see a text box show up, seemingly a narrator or imo, the player character(s), which could be sayin that they were planning a real protagonist, akin to your normal jrpgs
The other thing about the central narrative that bugs me is that not all philosophical conflicts are created equal, and while the idea of "past vs present" that comes up a few times is something that can have an agree to disagree element, "is the foundation of our society inherently abusive" is not. If Team Plasma was sincere and correct in their beliefs, the no, compromise wouldn't be the correct and moral option. It's something that nagged at me the whole time, because I have seen that problem in fiction with real life issues, which, eugh. Other thoughts: I think the idea of an artfully constructed Chosen One for your world revolution is fascinating, just not the right one for a morally ambiguous game. Also, even if many NPCs are just platitude dispensers, a few of them hit me like a train. The old man in Driftveil in B2/W2 who says that he doesn't regret releasing his Pokemon despite the fact that Team Plasma was wrong, because he doesn't have very long left anyway had me reeling.
Plasma should've just been a religious cult, all the sages and chosen one stuff fits that better and it's more relevant to the America inspired setting.
Love your video! One thing I would like to say is that I believe Cheren uses held items and Bianca doesn't, and while there could be more it is somewhat supported in the gameplay. The balance that you struck in this being a critique video that manages to feel overall neutral is great! Would love to see you grow more as a channel.
Fantastic video! Your analysis on BW is spot on and really hits at why they weren't as well received at the time of release. I would love to see you cover Black & White 2, if for any reason just to see how much they dropped the ball.
Thank you! And yeah I initally wanted to play BW2 for the video as well but realized it was going to take too much time. Its been a long time now since I played it so I dont remember the plot particularly well and whether or not it contributes much to the theming of the originals. Would love to cover it someday!
@@Skyehoppers keep it up! You've got some real skill and a a unique voice. Don't let the algorithm keep you down. Gonna watch some more of your videos later today. 😊
As someone who hasn’t played the games in years, this was a very nice refresher on the BW series but with a much more sophisticated perspective/analysis of the story compared to a younger version of myself. Great work with this video, I definitely agree with a lot of your points and you delivered them in a fun and engaging matter! Now here’s where I believe the BW arc is redeemed. The **manga** (easily my favorite version of the pokemon storyline as someone who primarily grew up only playing the games and watching the anime) **Spoiler warning for the manga** There is so much more depth to all the characters and especially team plasma that really sell their ambitions and ideals to be more believable. From the very first speech Ghetsis makes to the crowd in a small town, his words captivate dozens of people, even inspiring some of them to release their pokemon believing it to be for the best. But their reactions to his words really help to sell it (something the game or anime couldn’t do as effectively). Some of the trainers were very disturbed, even distraught having loved their pokemon for so long but being manipulated into letting them go by the guilt created by Ghetsis in his rhetoric. Ghetsis brings up so many genuine points that I never asked myself when I was younger. Are trainers really bonding and forming meaningful relationships with their pokemon by forcing them to battle against their will and keeping them trapped inside pokeballs? (I was guilty of catching pokemon and keeping them in my pc box for the rest of eternity lol) The protagonist of the story, Black, is infuriated by this because all his life, he had dreamed of becoming the greatest trainer in Unova. He had formed meaningful relationships with his two pokemon that he nurtured and played with throughout his childhood. And now someone would dare tell him that he was guilty of not listening to the voices of his pokemon and forcing them to follow **his** dreams without consideration for theirs? Well, Ghetsis was right to an extent.” In the manga, N is the hero of ideals and as a result awakens Zekrom in the later half of the story. Much like the games, N wasn’t a “completed” character. He wasn’t echoing the words and ideals of his father, but rather still trying to discover the truth for himself. It's thanks to his encounters with Black and White (the main characters in the manga) that he finally establishes his own ideals in response to their flawed viewpoints which justifies Ghetsis and team plasma’s ideals. For instance, White (one of the two main protagonists) was the president of her own movie agency and had a pretty exaggerated schedule of a daily routine like getting her Tepig’s nails done at 1 pm, rehearsing from 2-4 pm, dinner at 5pm, etc (im just making the times up). Details like this really gave us a better idea of White’s character and personality. She was a girl with big dreams just like Black who got too caught up in her fantasy that she failed to realize what her partner really wanted. She forced her own dreams and aspirations onto Tepig without giving them the choice to choose between pursuing showbiz or battling. N realized this and in their 2nd meeting, N confronted White and tried to show her the truth. White instead denied it and tried to escape the ferris wheel N had lured her to, refusing to accept the truth. However, her Tepig decides to stay with N who is giving them the opportunity to learn how to battle and become stronger. This is the first major turning point of the story and it ends with a completely broken main character whose best friend just chose a stranger over her. Earlier in the story, N was still trying to figure out whether there was more meaning to being a trainer and whether Ghetsis' ideals were right in the first place, but his experiences with Black and White helped convince him that this was the right path. However, one of the beauties of the manga over its counterparts is its character development. White is completely shattered and distraught after Tepig leaves her. Rather than giving up, she decides to listen to N and try to learn the art of battling despite her dreams of pursuing showbiz. She catches her own pokemon for the first time (with the help of Black) and even embarks on her own journey to become stronger. The next time she meets N, she thanks him for helping her realize the truth and is even reunited with her Tepig who White can finally understand. This really drives home the main point the story is making, that having different viewpoints isn’t always a battle between good or evil. Life wasn't just a matter of **BLACK AND WHITE**. Instead, it’s through having different viewpoints from others and being able to accept them instead of single narrowly rejecting them that we can learn and grow as individuals. You mentioned that the game undermines itself because the only “bad” acts being committed are by team plasma themselves, but in the manga N exposes everyone and I mean EVERYONE. Both the protagonists, the gym leaders, Alder, EVEN PROFESSOR JUNIPER. By having his Zorua spy on her the day the starters were sent to Black, Bianca, and Cheren, N was able to learn that Professor Juniper chose to neglect the three pokemon on their nerve racking first day. She was instead “talking on the phone all day” and N stated “I also know that you didn’t hand the starters to their trainers personally, you had them **delivered** instead. You **prepared** those pokemon. You **sent** those pokemon. This proves that you think pokemon are **things**.” (My mind was blown here) This moment in the manga completely flipped N from seemingly being the neutral antagonist into a true protagonist and liberator while the main characters were now seen as the “bad” guys. The games kept trying to push the main character as a pure and perfect trainer but it was quite the opposite in the manga. Both Black and White suffered through hardships and realized devastating truths about their ideals that made them change and grow into better characters. Sorry for the long analysis but I hope this could shed some light on the manga and its remarkable effort to turn the BW arc into something much greater than the games or anime ever could. (also im an animator and will be making a super cool project on the BW arc in a few years :D)
Gee I really like this video, you deserve more attention! this was a very well made analysis and made me think a little more of this game's imperfections. I hope your channel continues to grow!
I was reading Vagabond and Berserk while playing B&W during the pandemic and it couldn't have been a more compatible combination as B&W covers the topic of what it really means to be strong (referring to Alder and Cheren) and it was one of the most memorable experiences I've had in my life, and marks B&W as my favorite pokemon game of all time
Honestly I am generally saddened by the amount of lore Pokemon accidentally introduced over the years with absolutely no exploration of them whatsoever. Black and White is the most disappointing in that regard but every single game has these great little pieces of juicy world building that are ripe for exploration and it just... Never happens.
excellent, excellent video! Pokemon Black and White have always stood out to me from other mainlines regardless of personal nostalgia, but if you asked me I probably wouldn't be able to explain it in ways that aren't already obvious; the music, spritework, or the fact that the story IS different from other mainlines. very cool to see what I can only subconsciously gather and vaguely understand/feel from playing the games be fully conveyed. love the editing too! gonna check out the rest of your channel, it's also cool to see a relatively new and smaller channel just doin their thing and I hope it continues to grow!
The quality of this video is unreal. And not even 3k subs? Dude you did the impossible. Great job man, loved the inverted colors and other little touches you did.
After all the praise I've seen gen 5 get, it's surprisingly refreshing to hear genuine criticism regarding the themes that gen 5 tried to tell but failed to execute. Comparing N's ignorant beliefs and his loss to the current state of Pokémon games being a byproduct of BW's failure on sales is just a heart wrenching revelation.
How is that true? I’m searching up sales of B/W and it’s 15 million compared to Platinum that sold 7.6 million….I’m so confused. Edit: oh nvm that’s why D/P sold 17 million copies aka first Ds games compared to ones on the last lifespan and it almost outsold D/P lmao gen 5 just came at a bad time in History especially when everyone was expecting the 5th gen to be on the 3Ds…..
32:53 I don't know if you made this on purpose, but the fact that the first sign with color is the last one and those colors are red and blue, the first pokémon games, in the moment when you say that pokémon games can no longer innovate is awesome
Overall I really agree but one point when it comes to N’s argument being weaker due to the version differences,, I’d argue the version differences changing which side of the truth/ideal argument strengthens N’s argument. If we take the games from Pokémon White’s perspective, with N being the hero of truth and player being hero of ideals; The *Truth* is that in the Pokémon world there are corrupt trainers who abuse Pokémon. There are people who don’t deserve Pokémon. In a *Ideal* world, no trainer should ever abuse a Pokémon, and the world should push towards self improvement for the good of people and Pokémon. If we take black’s perspective, with N as ideals and the player as truth; *Truthfully* , people and Pokémon can coexist together in harmony. But there are many bad actors, and *Ideally* we should educate people better and help save Pokémon in bad situations to help the greater good. Each argument holds Truth in what they are saying, as well as push towards a better Ideal future. It all comes down to someone’s Perspective. Both arguments want what’s best for Pokémon. And the game hinges on N learning the other’s perspective to have a better world view/understanding. The game changing wether N is speaking the truth or revolutionizing for a ideal world, the game shows regardless of which way he is showing his viewpoint, they both are valid. Gen 5 in my mind boils down to learning to accept others differences, and working together despite differences. Diversity towards prosperity. Though I do wish the games and the sequels did better at showing this. I wish the sequels showed more that the world heard and recognized N’s message. And that we could see that. Hell even if it’s a small one off optional scene showing a trainer being mean to their Pokémon, and you are able to go and get help to rescue that Pokémon. Just something that showed abusive trainers that ARENT just in a evil team. Just another average NPC, ones that share the same models with other townsfolk’s that you’ve crossed paths with hundreds of times. Or to be able to find abandoned pokemon, maybe w similar animations like the N Pokémon or in overworld Pokémon balls, and that you can take them to a Pokémon ranch of sorts so they can recover from the trauma of their trainer deleting them from the pc/leaving them behind. Just something that showed Unova did hear and respond to the truth in N’s arguments, and are working towards a better, ideal world.
Black and White is a love letter to people that want amazing stories. To me, a good rpg is one that storms the minds of those who play it and make them feel deeply passionate about the story and it's characters. Black and White was the first Pokemon game i ever got as an actual gift, it was my own game. And that i completed 100% without any help. Not only it was amazing, but also a heartwarming experience. Such characters, trials, tribulations and the fight for ideals, was something amazing to identify with as a teenager. It was just at the age people like me were asking those questions. Undoubtedly, they were hidden gems. And it's a shame that only years later, we realize they were.
I deeply connected with N, the player, the people of unova and team plasma when I played white for the first time. The conflicts between all of them were a reflection of something that was fresh in my mind at the time, with getting aware of the disasterous impact that humans have on the environment and organizations like peta that claim to be about animal rights on the surface but are horrendous beneath that. The morality of training and battling pokemon has also been a frequent topic in the anime which I had been actively watching at the time. N addressing legitimate issues but being blind to the nuance of the situation due to being purpusefully sheltered. Team Plasma posing with good intentions, feigning a desire to prevent things they themselves are actively doing, with the real goal being to take over by force once the partnerships between people and pokemon have been dismantled. And the player who is just assumed to be right with the first thing the game tells them. All of them have a point in one way or another. And the more I think about it today the more I see the real world parallels.
A small nice detail would have been to unlock HGSS Pokemon following you around after you beat the game To show you did learn a bit from what N told you about Pokeballs and all that
Pokémon White was my first Pokémon game and to this day remains my favorite and a fond memory for me, and a game I have recently returned to. The story and characters have always gripped me, but gripped me especially as an adult. I know it's not above any criticism 😅 But I've always had hope in a potential remake would add in newer mechanics that involve interacting with your Pokémon like Pokémon amie and skill checks throughout the game that gauge how your Pokémon feel about you and that certain events can change in relation to. It's the limitations of this story belonging in an established game series that must first and foremost be a game that undermines so much of what it hopes to be, exactly as you discussed in the final part of the video. "Don't challenge the systems." Is an unfortunately nihilistic takeaway, but not an untrue one. 😅 I suppose for as much as B/W does accomplish, and the lasting impression on the older fanbase for what it could have been will always affect me; I'm glad these strides were taken, these situations posed, because even they couldn't be seen to fruition as they deserved because of expectation and limitation, I think it's great that they exist in the first place. And I think it's perfectly fine in our current fandom world to take what we like from media and build, expand, and discuss it within our own spaces. Because capitalism always wins, but at least we can share our feelings about what we love and how they can be better. 😆 This was a really great video. I played Pokémon White when it came out a decade ago, and just finished replaying PKMN B/W for the first time in nearly five years, and I've been looking in video essays and other content now as an adult to help me overcome my nostalgia and be more critical about the game that changed my life and got me into fandom in the first place. And honestly, I still love these games. They mean more to me now than ever before, and even with everything masterly said by yourself and others, I'm glad these games did what they did even with everything that happened in and around them that wasn't to our utmost expectations. Because I think that matters all the same. A remake would lose a lot of the stunning visuals of the original, but maybe a new generation of Pokémon players may be more receptive to B/W now, especially with new interactions with Pokémon and quality of life updates. I can only hope. 😊 But I think that because we still talk about B/W there IS merit to challenging the system. Because if we didn't, if we always just moved on and discussed the newest thing, there wouldn't be any point; capitalism and expectation always push us on to the new thing, the improved thing. And yet here we still are, discussing low stakes children games (one of the few times it tried to up said stakes 😆). And I think discussion is important. As important as diversity, and I think that's something B/W does convey well.
Hell yeah, I love comments like this :) Im happy my video could help you think about this weird and cool and flawed game more. It means a lot to me too ❤
I've had similar issues with Legends:Arceus. Seeing how the Pokémon roam free, and how the Diamond/Pearl Clan are unsure about Pokéballs and the expedition going around catching Pokémon left and right had me side with them. With the huge amount of Pokémon I caught and beat up, I started to feel more like a poacher than a researcher. Thankfully though, God told me that's a-ok, and even encouraged me to do some more poaching and dog-fighting.
dude... the quality of this video is fantastic! The transitions were especially good, but even beyond the visual magic the substance remained clear, calm, and concise, all without becoming monotone. even mentioned points I never heard before. If the rest of your content is even half as good as this you deserve every sub you have + 1.000.000 more.
I went into gen 5 after a 3-4 year break right after completing gen 4. Being confronted with such a wildly different tone, and the idea that catching / battling pokemon was potentially a bad thing... It was such a breath of fresh air. I really do think I fell in love with gen 5 after reaching that first cutscene with ghetsis. I remember reading a while back that the story for BW was reigned in, that the writers wanted to take it further... I don't remember where I read this, if it was a reliable source or not... But I do still believe it. Like stated in the video, the games are the backbone of *the* most profitable series/IP. I think gen 5 was supposed to be more, with the tone at the start of the game. I so wish they had made more games in the vein of gen 5.
N losing doesnt mean hes wrong he says it himself that him losing only meant that the player was more determined and believed more in their values than him
This was actually an interesting thing to think about. I never finished my copy of White before Black and White 2 came out, so I never finished the story. However, I remember being very fond of N and trying to internalize and think about the idea that he was right. While it's sad to see that his view never could have been truly explored by the games, I wish they continued like this. The Yin-Yang philosophy also intrigued me. All in all, this was an educational experience and I might take some of your points and implement it into my camp nanowrimo project if that's okay?
It’s funny. I’m coming off a play-through of HeartGold, and genuinely what this game needed, especially since it was being marketed towards kids and the franchise as a whole still is….was an antagonist like Silver to contrast with N. Bianca is fun, and Cheren is your usual “friendly rival” even if he’s quite dour and serious about it. But Silver? The rival from Gen 2 literally has the arc of being cruel to his Pokémon, but it’s all second hand, told from others and reinforced by his claims. But even in the remake games, his Pokémon don’t have anyone using “frustration” or anything to telegraph this further. But my point? The idea was there, well before the anime got there in force with Paul. Having a slightly less cartoon villain Plasma(which admittedly is rewriting damn near the whole game) that is actually on-board mostly with their ideals from the start, with Ghetsis being actually really shitty to his Pokémon being a “straw that broke the camels back” situation for N…and maybe even Plasma as a whole. But you’re bang on the money, and it’s been reinforced since; you can’t fuck with the winning formula. Nintendo and the fanbase(back then) agreed that to try something bold like this can’t happen again, and I’ll be honest I think taking the plot of N seriously would have derailed the franchise on the whole. It’s notable that I was a Gen 1 kid, grew up with Team Rocket, and their refreshing lack of morals. They are just the mob, really. But my sister is much younger then me, and jumped in, really, at Gen 4(as those were the first games I wasn’t effectively playing for her) and she loved Black and White. I’ll admit now; Pokémon was a delicious comfort food for me back then. I liked my complicated media, always have, but Pokémon was like eating junk food, really tasty but it wasn’t trying to fill a moral itch. Just a damn good fun time. But I was primed on Gen 1 and 2; uncomplicated was the story I was used to for Pokémon. But Gen 3 began to introduce more nuance, especially with emerald combining the plots of Hoenns villain teams in a way that definitely felt environmentally conscious(even if it falls well short of any major critique). My sister grew up with Pokémon villains who had more going on; Team Rocket felt shallow to her. Black and White are close to her favourites, even if Diamond and Pearl win for nostalgia reasons(every person remembers their first real game). In hindsight, Black and White are the kind of things I generally like to see in game, and I know a lot of criticisms were blind nostalgic memories poisoning my experience. I do remember being blown away by the cities. Even the new Pokémon didn’t really bother me as I could get my old ones in the postgame…but the games felt too alien on the whole to me. Which, ironically, was the point. You couldn’t try this plot in Kanto; it had to happen in an idealized version of America. I think this is something beyond business that goes understated; just how Japanese Pokémon is. All 4 prior regions were Japanese in theme, and the attitude in Japan is “status quo is god”. Beyond rational business reasons, not messing with the systems is endemic in their very ordered society as it is. To his credit, I think Masuda did his best earnest attempt at trying to be more bold and nuanced in the story. But in a fit of supreme irony lost on a lot of Americans(I’m not one myself) is that a lot of Americans rightfully question everything, including their society. That makes you simultaneously unable to accept praise if you feel it’s not deserved either. Masuda made an idealized US because his experience in meeting Americans and seeing NYC was to wonder and marvel at the diversity in almost every way, and coming from both an ethnically and culturally homogeneous society like Japan, it must have felt very alien. So it feels a bit too strong and overbearing as most North Americans are a lot more jaded. But N as a character couldn’t be Japanese; it took going to a non-Japanese region to show a major break from the norm. It’s unfortunate it flopped. I do think the DS finally going the way of the dodo didn’t help sales, so I don’t think it’s just the games story and Hostiles fans that held it back. Looking back, it at least felt daring. Modern Pokémon is so safe and stale that I find myself looking at the games I derided for being too divergent and wondering if I was too harsh. Vindicated by history is where I think these games sit now, both mechanically and in story. Fan games and rom hacks are how we’ll get that alternative experience now, I think.
I think N saying that exposure to different ideas changes the world is very true in the game. He has been sheltered his entire life, but the world he was kept from wasn't. It was breathing, evolving, changing, improving. It's the contrast between the world which allowed the chemical reaction and the world that didn't
Do you agree or disagree with my analysis of these games? Did I miss anything that would affect my interpretation? Let me know! If you enjoyed this video and want to help me make a whole bunch more, please consider contributing to my Patreon www.patreon.com/skyehoppers . My goal there is to build towards creating a community centered around critically analyzing but in a casual way, free from the stuffiness and elitism that tends to come with literary analysis in school settings. Here are some fun discussion questions that didn't make it into the script!
1. How do the sequel games contribute to or complicate the message of the originals? I haven't played Black and White 2 since they came out so I honestly have no idea whether or not they follow the same path or take a totally different direction.
2. Do you have any concrete ideas for how a Pokemon game could incorporate more synthesis between the gameplay and the story? Do you think they should?
3. How does the unusual way of meeting the legendary Pokemon, being fought basically in the middle of an elite four run, affect the story and what those legendaries may represent?
I love that idea about having consequences for low friendship values. That's really what the entire series is missing. It's nice that newer games add little in-battle benefits for having happier Pokemon, but there's no obligation to not treat them like trash. The only real thing UNfriendliness changes is the power of a few moves, one of which actually gets stronger (Frustration). It'd be cool if friendship could go into the negatives and make Pokemon slack off or fall asleep on you in the middle of battle, like what not having enough gym badges does.
1.I would say the sequels expand on the intended message, by having a better compromise between an one dimensional evil team and characters that challenge the worldview, as a result of Team Plasma's schism. Instead of having supposed well-intentioned extremists, you have your hardened criminals who were, like Ghetsis, only part of the organization to advance their own agenda, and the genuinely well-intentioned people who Ghetsis duped and who are actively trying to make amends for their actions.
2.They actually did do this in small ways, such as Ghetsis' BW team appearing to be specifically constructed to counter N's team. The implication is made clear in BW2 and again in USUM through the alternate universe Ghetsis who became part of team Rainbow Rocket: the moment N ceases to be useful to his adoptive father, he dies. What makes Ghetsis an outstanding villain is that he shows no aversion to murdering someone directly, which is of course big in a children's game.
He's the opposite of everything he claims to be in BW1, and in BW2 and USUM, he is free to show it off, even taking full advantage of his Hydreigon's minimum friendship using Frustration in BW2. His Hydreigon hates him.
He embodies pure evil in a way that not even Giovanni does. He probably wasn't the best villain for BW1, as his presence led to most of the problems you cite with Team Plasma being hypocritical and detracts from the attempt to have a morally grey pokemon game, but nevertheless, he's a great villain and a genuinely good character.
Okay this a super insightful comment, thank you! It honestly makes me excited to finally revisit B/W2 as it seems from your comment and a couple others that there will be a good amount to talk about there. The hydreigon having minimum friendship in b/w2 is a super cool little detail that I probably wouldn't have noticed myself, so thank you for bringing it up!
@@Skyehoppers I mean yeah, the friendship value of another character's pokemon isn't exactly something the game tells you. It's one of those details that you can only find in the code of the game, but which is great attention to detail on the part of the devs.
@@Skyehoppers I'd definitely watch this part two as well, the whole of this video was really well said, and I love listening to people with interesting stuff to say about my favorite games.
I think what BW needed to give N's arguments some nuance was giving the player a Paul's Chimchar situation. Give the player a Pokémon that has been abused, and it's up to you to raise it after it's been abandoned. Throw in small additions like having the Pokémon express discomfort, refuse an order, or even run away out of fear, would make for an interesting experience because the game would be purposely giving you a liability to your party. It's a test to see if you have the patience to prove N wrong. If you box it and leave it at that, you'd be proving N's point in that humans treat Pokémon like tools they can just throw away whenever they want. But if you can raise it's friendship level, treat it with love and affection, and make it trust you, then it would make N seeing that Pokémon and humans can coexist that much more meaningful.
That sounds like a really cool idea. Maybe have it be 75% obedient unlike the 50% obedience of overleveld traded mons, and have N give you the option to have an abused pokemon on your team, giving you the choice to turn him down so you aren't forced to raise it on numerous playthroughs(and therefore influence your interactions). Having the option to turn him down makes training the pokemon to evolve past its traumas and become a truly powerful pokemon even more inspiring imo. And they could even make it a pre-gen 5 pokemon, so you don't have the option to box it and get a more agreeable pokemon of the same species anywhere else in the game. I really hope they try something like this in the BW remakes(assuming they aren't remasters like BDSP are)
It would give an actual purpose to the happiness level besides get some evolutions once
Good in theory, bad In execution. I mean if there’s exp share maybe but I don’t see how one Pokémon and giving N a few more dialogue options would do anything lol like once he sees people and Pokémon as one and not as tools for the other, then what? End game battle? I mean what can that really do ?
@@andrewaguayo115 It would give N's development at the end have some meaning, considering his whole "different perspectives on the world" meant next to nothing when in the context of the story, he's just wrong with nothing backing up his world view that humans and Pokémon cannot coexist. The entire point of this hypothetical abandoned Pokémon thing is giving the core message of BW a chance to practice what it preaches.
interesting? yes it is.but i can only see it working if that pokemon was like,your starter pokemon(snivy/tepig/oshawott)
as if it was like an random pokemon,it would be basically gaslighting the player as "i dont wamt to use this pokemon in my party,but i would feel like a piece of shit if i dont"
and as someone who likes his team variety very much,it would be cool at first but eventually it would just get annoying
I'll never forget the first time I saw Castelia City, it was so mindblowing, B&W/2 are really the pinnacle of the entire series and show you don't need to change the formula just add depth something I wish they kept going instead of trying to change what worked. Great stuff!
They haven′t really changed much besides the Let′s Go catching system, the Island Trials and some battle gimmicks. P:LA is a lot more different, yes, but that ain′t a problem. People were getting more and more unhappy with stagnation, so a game that changes the way battles play out while retaining the core system and adding open areas is a fine evolution if you ask me.
And the music got Castelia was amazing
@@speedslider3913 tho they changed a lot in terms of gimmicks, mega evolution worked, Z moves and Gigamax not so much, they could've added to those instead of changing them for something else, P:La not having any gimmick (probably styles but they feel like core features) and having open world areas felt fresh compared to other titles, i wonder how would gen 9 compare to gen 8 considering we're getting an open world game
Sun and Moon, Heart Gold akd Soul Silver, Legends Arceus, Platinum: are we a joke to you?
I would have been happy if all the regions that followed stayed in the gen 5 style
I find the in real life division of the fan base as evidence of the effectiveness of the story. I like to compare this to Ghetsis' ideology he pitched to the public. Throughout the game you find people who starkly oppose him like you and your friends, those who agree with him like the Grunts and Zinzolin and those caught in the middle like N.
I find the irony of people initially rejecting it and then coming to love it over the years after it's had time to be itself and have it's story digested amusing.
I instantly loved it when I got bw. I got it first week of release I was so excited. I heard all the criticisms but I didn't care. I enjoyed the heck out of it and I was extremely disappointed when XY came out and was nothing like BW. Yet everyone else seemed to love that game which just made me kinda mad and distant myself but that's how it goes.
The story was always great. It was the designs that have always sucked.
@@chronic_daydreamer I always really liked the designs. Its one of my favorites other than 4th gen designs.
Victini, Bisharp, Cofrigigas, Druddigon are all pretty great. There are some that aren't great but this gen really had them feel like pocket monsters again I'd say. The gameplay is actually probably the best in the series to date I'd say as well. Fun audino grinds when your underleveled, tms you get are really fun this time around since they are reusable (barely used tms in old gens) and hidden abilities can be pretty cool. Also was all around pretty challenging even veteran trainers used competitive teams and bosses were bosses.
@@chronic_daydreamer This is such a smooth brain take, you're delusional if you think Gen 5 designs Suddenly Suck when they follow the conventions of older game designs to a T. Or do you hate literally every other generation designs too?
@@moonlitwyvern6840 Actually, no, some of them didn’t. And some of them were truly awful. But if you wanna defend a trash bag and an ice cream, you go ahead and do that. My take might be smooth brain but at least I’m not head empty like you.
i remember noticing that N uses wild pokemon from wherever you are in battle and being CHILLED by it. i couldn't stop thinking "if N is so wrong, *why do the pokemon come when he calls?* why are they on *his side?* " was very disappointed my question never got answered, lol.
Those Pokémon are like N and most likely haven’t really interacted with society so therefore they may be afraid or may stick to things closer to their nature.
@@tonyluengas8160except a repeat theme in pkmn is that wild pkmn are driven to get stronger and to work with someone to reach that goal, its never explained why some are nervous (anime mostly) but I suppose you could suggest that weaker wild pkmn are anxious around ppl incase they’re driven away as pests or beaten up for training, but in the games wild pkmn are generally aggressive and to explain it lore maintains that pkmn Want a trainer, they just want one they’re compatible with + they consider strong.
So for wild pkmn to back up N, it implies a few (possible) things
A) the lore is wrong, pkmn don’t actually seek out trainers
B) there is division between pkmn
C) its just awkward writing from a series whose only way of handling situations is battling
Personally I love the idea of B, because they could have had a chance of a pkmn with -neg friendship upon capture, they misbehave and grow slower until they’re into +pos friendship. You Could get rid of it and get a less recalcitrant pkmn, one that wants to be there, Or you could invest your time/energy into showing this pkmn its worth it to be with you. There’s no other reward. Maybe you’ll never win it over, maybe you Are better off releasing it and trying again. It doesn’t undermine N (some pkmn Do want to be left alone, he’s right) but nor does it undermine the player (some pkmn Do want to fight, you’re right) it just shows that the pkmn aren’t a homogeneous group, or, ya know, it isn’t black and white.
The system can’t change, not really, because it wouldn’t be pkmn any more, but it Could show you that just because capture/battling is fine, its not fine for everyone all the time.
Describing the Team Plasma castle rising over the Elite 4 as something new challenging an old institution was so… sexy, this was everything
Thanks you haha that paragraph took me like an hour or more to write. Really felt like that cutscene was the core of the whole game and wanted to communicate that best I could
@@Skyehoppers I find it shocking that people don't talk about it more, it's a mindblowing aspect of the game
My biggest complaint that I ever had with the story is that there was no big bad on the ‘good side’. Though I think Alder was necessary, I wish he wouldn’t have been champion. If there could have been a scumbag who was pre-ending silver(I’m not saying Silver did, but the mindset of might =s right) who seemingly abused his Pokémon into fighting harder ended up being champion it would be a much stronger story. You’d get the satisfaction of N being the first trainer to beat him due to his beliefs in Pokémon. Then when you have the post game fight, this abusive champion is beaten and then replaced by Alder. Or even perhaps just having many Pokémon using the move frustration(already in the comments). I feel like they do good at showing that N isn’t blatantly wrong, Team Plasma is. But they don’t go far enough to show he’s right.
That's a good idea! If a gym leader or elite 4 member was found out to have only achieved success through abusive training methods that couldve added a lot of needed depth to the plot. Maybe a character similar to Endeavour from my hero academia?
I love this idea.
The anime really tried to do this with Paul from the D/P series, and (given the constraints they had to work with) I really think they were pretty successful. DP was season of the anime that I started with as a kid, and Paul was probably my favorite character, then and now. The whole storyline with his Chimchar, and the thematic conflict between him and Ash, culminating in their League battle.
When I finally got a DS, and played the games, I can't tell you how dissapointed I was that Paul was nowhere to be found, and I got Barry instead.
Isn't the whole point that N isn't 100% right though? The idea behind Black and White is that life isn't just Black and White, and Truths and Ideals shouldn't be something separated.
In my eyes; N represents Ideals more then Truth. He has his own code of morality and his own set of ideals and views towards how Pokémon and human should see each other, but he fails to see the full picture for most of the story that Pokémon being captured and battling is a more nuanced subject then just "Pokémon battling bad". Because there's evidence within the universe itself that Pokémon battling isn't evil, it's not morally wrong. But it's also not perfectly clean either. I feel like if you leaned too hard into N being 100% correct, you'd lose the whole nuance of the story, or at least what they're going for.
Am I saying there couldn't have been someone will ill intentions on the side of the player/not with Plasma? Of course not, but I think it would be best if even regardless of that you don't go with the idea that N is always correct.
better yet, the campion being be a LOT like Paul, but with many differences to make him a unique character which, while it would be difficult yes, but it would not impossible
17:00 Don’t forget. It’s based on Yin Yang. The whole point is that it’s not supposed to just be one or the other.
Just because you’re good doesn’t make N and his beliefs evil.
It doesn't mean his beliefs are evil, it means that within the world, his beliefs are wrong for how the society is. And honestly, the Yin Yang symbolism doesn't do much to actually help the game in any way, as there isn't really any equal, opposing forces, the player, who is right, always wins, and that's how it has been in every Pokemon game. It's why telling such a story like this is difficult for a pokemon game, lest they make it more mature and then "not for kids" by actually instead portraying Unova as morally grey, but it isn't, it's good, it's a utopia.
@@Kristiano100 simply making things darker doesn’t make a story more mature
In fact, it would actually remove any stakes the story would have
In Taoism Yin and Yang are essential. You cannot have one without the other. The Idea is that you and N learn from each other and others to become complete.
@@pn2294 Yeah I know thats true, I never said that couldnt be the case, thats the hard part I described
And people could fail to beat N
One extra thing about Ghetsis, his Hydreigon has a happiness value of 0 and it is rumored that his Hydreigon is the pokemon that took out his eye and made him need a patch. I wish the happiness value would've been acknowledged in the actual game instead of having to dive into the code for it.
Ooh cool theory about the eyepatch. I had heard the thing about the hydreigon and frustration before, but not that aspect.
@@Skyehoppers goes to show how N was raised to believe that these situations of pokemon being abused and unhappy with their owners is even more to the contrary than we may have originally thought as specifically Ghetsis had the largest part in raising N out of all of team Plasma. My thought about the Hydreigon is that maybe it tried to fight back against some of the abuse from Ghetsis and got beaten or something along the lines as a result.
He lost one of his arms from it too
That’s why he has that cloak
27:05 perhaps a solution to this could be the appearance of the player’s dragon at the castle. All the way back to the bell, since it’s earlier in the game: if the overall friendship level back then is below a certain point, the dragon won’t appear.
This doesn’t change much. N’s still being used by Ghetsis, and you still have to beat them both, just without Zekrom/Reshiram on your side. It just makes you… not as right as you might’ve otherwise believed.
Just picture it. You ring the bell, and a weak chime is all that comes out. N asks your pokemon if they’re happy, and he doesn’t necessarily like the answer; it doesn’t shake the foundations of his beliefs like the canon moment does. You’re not a bad guy, just not a morally perfect person.
And yet, you still beat him, the pinnacle of morality. And if everything he believes is skewed, everything you believe can’t be right either.
Obtaining the legendary dragon would be relegated to the post game in this case.
Maybe making Team Plasma a little more ambiguous would help too. They’re just comically evil 😭 mfs were out there kicking puppies and shit. Just making *some* of the grunts genuinely believe in the cause would change the perception we have in TP as a whole.
Take all this shit with a grain of salt, I am literally just vibing. I enjoyed this video a lot, your editing is really good!
Actually that's a super cool suggestion! That would work really well I think. Maybe especially if you put the bell on top of dragonspiral tower rather than celestial tower.
One problem. All you have to do to raise friendship is walk around.
In team plasma's castle there were some grunts that did believe in the cause they were some that even questioned ghetsis' and what he was doing.
@@saphiriathebluedragonknight375 well yeah,
But if you don't go out of your way to do so,
That's a trivial boost.
this is actually a good idea. Although i do have to add they did give the plasma grunts some sincerity in the sequel.
I remember the sting of N's argument hit harder for younger me coming right off of Soul Silver where I could just turn around and ask my Pokemon how it was doing whenever I wanted. Going back to the apparent silence was hard and unsteady, and certainly the story did make me consider the world of Pokemon differently from then on. I see the listed points though. The story could have worked with the gameplay better to make what was already a strong experience even stronger. I knew it was flawed back in the day, but it was timed pretty well with my own adolescence, a time of uncertainty and fear, and it is still one of the few games I've ever played that brought a tear to my eyes when the credits started.
I dunno if it's stretching on behalf of younger, jaded me, but the note you ended on was in a way part of why I loved gen 5 too. There are well meaning people with good intentions and pivotal roles in the greater clash of good versus evil, all the grey in the middle, and the mess humanity repeatedly finds itself in, and hovering over all of it is the status quo, held almost violently in place by seemingly evil people who want control. We all got to see them when the well meaning one tried and failed, and after that respite, the bad guy still gets away.
...I suppose at least it's good that the real life evil people don't have pet ninjas to haunt you relentlessly while you explore the postgame.
That's a great point about HGSS. In a game where the specific feelings of Pokemon are actually plot-relevant, they removed a mechanic that existed in its direct predecessor that told you those feelings. Huh...
19:30 I feel like this is only demonstrated in the second fight, where Cheren uses held items to get an advantage over you. I feel like Cheren could be the perfect character to communicate the game's complex combat system, but in the end he just ends up being another rival
Yeah another person brought that up! They could have taken that idea so much further, and the fact that he uses held items when Bianca doesn't proves that the devs had at least come cool ideas in that direction.
This was a fantastic critique of black and white! I remember when I was 11 years old playing these games and feeling like it was one of the first times I was treated "seriously", and it was by none other than N; he was a character that had his own ideas but after confronting me multiple times slowly understood how 11 year old me saw the world of Pokémon and it felt nice, especially when as a young shy boy I couldn't really make my voice heard. (Also I wish I could be as wonderstruck as I was back then going trough every patch of grass and finding new pokemons)
I really liked the way you edited this video, not too overbearing but complemented the script really well, I didn't even realized it was half an hour! I'll surely catch more of your videos :)
Holy crap the transition at 5:05 was freaking awesome, especially in combination with talking about playing with perspective, just one example of countless editing brilliances, amazing vid man, you’re criminally underrated
Thank you for noticing 🥺 that one took me a ton of time. I was worried nobody would even see it haha
@@Skyehoppers the transitions and your style made me subscribe. Can't wait for the next one.
I disagree with the statement that N is portrayed as wrong and the player character is perfect because it eliminates the human element. You the player are supposed to be asking the same questions as N.
I believe N is portrayed as a man who's learning and It's you the player that's confronted with new ideas from N while it's the story that introduces new ideas to N.
Depending your version you are shown imagery that conflicts with your dragon. In white version you are shown imagery of an older world, but in the end you are supposed to wield the deep black dragon of Ideals. A more forward thinking mindset than that of N and his vast white dragon of Truth.
That's a really solid point! You're right that how the player interacts with the ideas presented doesn't depend on how the story itself ends. We are free to take what we like from them, which is kinda what makes art great. And yeah I never of that contrast between the opelucid city in your version versus what your dragon represents. Excellent insight!
The issue I have is that there is no real basis for the questions N is trying to get you to ask other than the real world. And BW is a terrible representation of the real world animal fighting issue.
When are we ever shown that N has a point? Without something as simple as that there is no reason to be asking the same questions as N.
@@Ash_Yu That covers what I do think is an issue about Unova's lore.
You have to go and find it and most of the ways you do find it is optional, Tedious or both.
You're forced to explore to make the gist of the game makes sense beyond a surface level.
@@Ash_Yu Hilariously enough the most of a point N has comes from the Pokemon Ranger games as all 3 Ranger games play in Regions were Pokeballs are actually banned and the Rangers that use devices to communicated there emotions to pokemon act as both law enforcement and peace keeper between Pokemon and Humans.
Meaning the Ranger games do show that a different approach to the world one with out Trainer fights is not only possible but actually already realized in some parts of the world.
Obviously couldn't Gamefreak actually bring this up as it would genuinely put the main line titles of the franchise into a rather awkward position but I still find it funny that its there.
@@rynobehnke8289 Are the ranger games canon?
"Its hard to think of a more vulnerable position than trapped in an enclosure, hundreds of feet in the air with the king of a group that is no stranger to cruelty"
13/14 y.o. me during this scene, when I first played the game 10 years ago: o///o
Loved this video! I think regardless of how successful they were, Black and White deserve props for being the first (and last) attempt Pokemon would make to grow up with its audience. Obviously it's still a game accessible to young kids but the fact it even tries on a surface level to ask conflicted questions about its own world is amazing. Wish they could have sold better, it might have meant this type of game being developed on and improved with each subsequent generation. I guess we can thank people on gamefaqs complaining about "the trash bag pokemon >:(" for that never happening.
It's also not at all surprising that following these games, they released a sequel that entirely scraps the "only new Pokemon" thing which made Unova unique, and the following generation is some of the most shallow writing and blatant nostalgia pandering the series has seen to date. Capitalism baby!
Yeah, exactly! While I have some problems with BW, I think if the same writing team had been given several more games to keep being weird and ambitious they would have ended up smoothing out the issues and making some really awesome work. Too bad thats not our timeline...
Yeah! It really sucks, and you can tell that it's been pandering to the "old" ways ever since gen 6 by the blatant love and adoration that the gen 1 Pokemon have gotten since with 9 gen 1 Pokemon getting megas (2 which each got 2 different mega forms), 34 of the 53 Regional Variants have been gen 1 Pokemon, and 12 of 33 Pokemon that can Gigantamax being gen 1 mons. And don't get me started on the Charizard love.
Fortunately, it seems that with Arceus, Pokemon looks like it's starting to be less and less about the blatant gen one favoritism, and it also looks like they're willing to test out new ways of playing, which would hopefully lead into more divergence in current main-line Pokemon stories as well
It is worth noting the coincidence of the Galar region having many Unovan regional forms, which unfortunately feels like a concession that Gen 5 were the best games (given that the game tried to tell a story about an energy crisis) but that it would never repeat whatever Gen 5 did.
Out of pessimism, it may just reference England’s and the US’s history.
Gen 1 legit has some of the worst designs in pokemon. Every generation has had bad pokemon designs, and Gen 5 DID NOT have the biggest number. Geodude line are just rocks, rattata line, ekans line, mankey and primeape being nearly identical in design, dewgong barely looks like a pokemon if not for the horn on its head, muk/grime, voltorb/electrode... the list goes on. These are all pokemon designs that most people would not consider very good, and consequently these pokemon aren't very well remembered.
@@iantaakalla8180 I think it also has to do with James Turner, the lead art director for Pokémon Sword and Shield, getting his start at Gamefreak designing Pokémon for Gen 5! He originally designed the Vaniluxe, Golurk, and Mandibuzz lines, and so it’s probably a region that really matters to him. Sorta like how kids who grew up playing Pokémon sometimes say their favorite game is the one they first played.
Along with the fact that Gen 5 is up next in the cycle for remakes and homages, I’m glad Gen 5 Pokémon are getting the love they deserve.
This kind of blew my mind with the realization that in EVERY Pokemon game, not just BW, defeating the villain doesn't fundamentally change ANYTHING. You are the hero for restoring the status quo.
There's a small part of me that wonders what that says about the Pokemon games being developed in an environment with a heavy concentration on putting society before the individual, but I feel like I do not have nearly enough education in sociology to make any resounding conclusions.
“To change in a collective culture is wrong” -my wife phych degree
26:33 I've found that, from my view, there's a reason pokemon work the way they do. (long post incoming)
1. Pokemon enjoy battling. It is part of their nature. It is the only way they grow stronger: by battling. It's a fundamental part of their physiology and they love to do it, like how humans like to work out. Yes, working out hurts, but it makes you stronger. It's also likely that pokemon naturally have a much higher pain tolerance than humans. Also, pokemon grow strongest when paired with a human partner. It's a symbiotic relationship.
2. Capturing pokemon is an interesting subject. Pokemon enjoy battling to show off their strength and prowess, and they only want to be the pokemon of a trainer who is worthy in their eyes. As such, Pokemon will only allow themselves to be captured by a trainer who proves their worth and strength. If a pokemon truly does not want to be captured, they will just attack and kill the trainer.
3. Almost all pokemon are in their situation by choice. It's shown multiple times that pokeballs are not locked. a pokemon captured within can burst out whenever it wants even if its trainer doesn't like it. If a pokemon does not like its trainer, it will kill them, or escape. The only reason why a pokemon couldn't do this is if its a baby, like that munna. But if a trainer abuses its pokemon, eventually that pokemon will kill them. Like James and his Magikarp. He was terrible to it, and then when it suddenly evolved into Gyriados, it tried to kill him. Pokemon ARE NOT people. They are stronger than us and have agency in strength that they could use if they desired.
But I 100% agree with your video. It was very enjoyable to watch. I was just explaining why I think the pokemon world works how it does. Not to say it would be wrong to take a different view point.
Thank you! And yeah you have good points and I mostly agree with them. I think it's fine that Pokemon battles are portrayed as good. Not everything has to be an analogy for the real world that would be exhausting. BUT like if the game itself is going to draw that comparison, then it should maybe take the morally ambiguous nature of it a little more seriously. And a lot of why we *feel* like these systems aren't harmful is because of external media like the anime, rather than evidence within the games themselves. The games are never really willing to characterize the Pokemon to the same extent. It's messy! Thanks for the thoughtful comment that made me reconsider my perspective a bit
Then why didn't Ghetsis' hydreigon attack him? It has a full power frustration... yet does nothing against his abuser
@@Mqstodon It's probably terrified of him and has some personal worth issues. It was raised by ghetsis from a deino, so chances are Ghetsis had years to condition it to know that "if you bite me, you get hurt"
@@Mqstodon Fear is a very powerful tool. Plus Hydreigon's are shown to not be very smart.
Points 2 and 3 are only expressed on the anime which has a clear intention of defend pokemon image
I'll be the first to admit that Black and White were far from my favorite games, but I LOVED what they tried to do with the moral ambiguity. Also, Ghetsis was and still is the only antagonist boss to actually make me nervous and maybe even a little scared, not because of his strength but because of what he represented.
I can respect the immense amount of effort put into every facet of BW/B2W2, and at least *trying* to tell a compelling narrative, even if it didn't pan out exactly perfectly. It's high and above what other games in the series even attempt. Particularly with XY and SwSh, despite having moments that seem "mature" on the surface, they still come off extremely shallow. That's why I think gen 5 is the best gen. Even if it couldn't go all the way, it got pretty darn close.
The amount of effort put into gen 5 in general was abysmal
Removed the battle frontier with absolutely nothing to compensate.
The story is nonsensical, Ghetsis's goal of having a member beat a league through that for no reason gain authority is idiotic. N supposedly being a genius that can supposedly communicate with Pokemon can't tell his guardian is a liar from looking at the people with Pokemon around him. How do you call this trying?
Haven't played SS but I do know XY made sense. Kill the unproductive class of people using a laser, proof of being non-productive is having a lot of money, the only way to join team flare. This places everyone that survives on equal ground, having no reason for conflict or theft.
Gen 5 almost seems like it's written like a fanfic. It brings up good questions that add depth to an otherwise shallow series, and it's got a lot of charm in that way, but objectively it's not incredibly well written. And I still love it regardless. There's been moments or characters across the whole series where, given they were expanded upon to drive the entire story, they could have matched or exceeded BW in storytelling ability. If game freak ever, by some miracle, makes a game with a deep story and makes the gameplay like Legends Arceus then it definitely could be as good or better than BW
@@plausibruh Gen 4 already had a better story
This is a really good video! I never gave it this much thought. Maybe giving random trainers the move frustration would implement a solid basis voor N's worldview while still not making the game child-unfriendly. Only people with a some understanding of game mechanics would understand what this means. Altough maybe I'm thinking about this too simply.
No yeah thats a good idea! Little details like that would go a long way. However I was told recently that Cheren uses held items while Bianca doesnt, which makes me think that the developers did want to implements more consistencies between the gameplay and the story but maybe ran out of time
There is one trainer that does. You probably guessed who.
@@S.I.L. spaghetsis
I don't normally comment on videos, but I just wanted to say that this is one of the best video essays I've ever watched. I clicked on it because Black and White are some of my favorite games of all time, and it's always nice to hear people gush about the things you love. But you provided a level of depth in your commentary that I wasn't expecting, and I really enjoyed hearing your perspective. I too have wrestled with the imperfections of Black and White's narrative ambitions. But what I ultimately come back to, and what I think you illustrated wonderfully in this video, is that while on some level disappointing, it makes them really fascinating pieces of art that I will always come back to. And your video made me appreciate them that much more, so thank you for that. Also the editing quality was top notch, really a joy to watch. I'm glad I found your channel, and now I'm gonna go watch your video on Black 2 and White 2!
Loved this video a lot. I’ve always appreciated Black & White for their story but you nailed your criticisms of their shortcomings. Looking forward to more videos from you!
Thank you! Tbh this shoutout came at a perfect time I have a new video coming out in like 3 days or so :)
Skyehoppers in that case I’ll definitely be in the lookout! The shoutout was definitely well-deserved.
Diamond & Pearl was space and time for anyone curious.
Yeah haha I definitely remembered while editing but I thought it was funny how much less obvious the fourth gen is when you put it next to all the others
Fantastic work here! B&W2 is probably my favorite game to this day so seeing a perspective that gives air to the good Gen 5 tried to show the long-running series while still acknowledging its shortcomings is much appreciated!
Wow, I gotta confess: when I clicked on this video, I was not anticipating this level of video essay analysis. It's instantly gotten me to subscribe.
Gen 5 was immediately my favorite ever since I first got it on the DS. I'm glad to see these retrospective looks at it.
My own theory about how N is clearly presented as wrong isn't that GameFreak is really anxious about accusations that Pokemon is dog-fighting, and so they felt they had to overcompensate in signalling that N is wrong because they don't want to raise the possibility of something that would undermine the entire foundation of the franchise.
It's interesting too because I think by that point the accusations of Pokemon being abusive had died down quite a bit. Kinda surprising that they acknowledged it at all
These are genuinely the thoughts I have always had about the game, but I could never really put it into words. Seeing it feels like someone is raising my voice and I absolutely love it. I haven’t watched all of the video, but I can already say that I will finish it. Much love man!
This was excellent. It's fascinating how often art made within the dominant hierarchy will reinforce it in ways that I doubt the developers fully intended or thought about, leaving a variety of implications that can be dug in to.
Yeah, exactly! I started writing another section about how this depiction kinda shows a belief that what progressive movements fight for doesn't have any basis in reality. But I cut it because I realized it would require a ton of research that would be better served going into its own video with examples from various pieces of media. Definitely a project I want to tackle someday!
@@Skyehoppers That sounds excellent! Theres way too many pieces of art that connect with this.
@@SkyehoppersI mean, that's basically what the game is saying, no?
I just finished playing Pokémon Black & White 2, and after watching this video there was something interesting within it that I'd like to mention. In the Post-Game, when you talk to N he mentions that "Someday… Pokémon and humans will be bound together without Poké Balls. They will simply trust and help one another. Make that kind of world." In this sense, I think N represents the compromise. At the end of the game, he leaves and goes on a journey to understand the world better, and after gifting Zekrom/Reshiram to you he tells you to make a world without Poké Balls. Although the world of Unova hasn't changed and hasn't compromised, he still challenges you to change the systems, which ended up being very inspiring to me.
I also think that, like you said, it would be impossible for the game to end with N being the victor. Pokémon is bound to the Poké Ball aesthetic. Even if the rules of the world changed with these games, the marketing couldn't follow with it because of how tied it is to that memorabilia. I think a really interesting question to ask is what the reconstruction of Poké Balls and how they interact with the world would look like?
Just thought I'd add these things to the conversation. I really enjoyed the video and it definitely challenged my view on the games, just like the games themselves attempted to do. Wonderful work here!
Oooh okay that's super interesting! I'm gonna make an analysis of Black 2/White 2 in the next couple months cause it seems like there's a good amount of stuff in the sequels that complicate/add to the meaning of the first games.
@@Skyehoppers I saw that on the community post, very excited for the video when it releases!
I'd also like to mention something else I noticed. It seems to me like a major distinction between BW & BW2's Story is how they view Poké Balls. In BW they're viewed as a way to connect with Pokémon, and at one point of the characters (I can't remember which) said something along the lines of "Pokémon can just leave their trainer's if they so choose". Meanwhile, BW2 flips that on its head, and multiple times N talks about how Poké Balls are still the embodiment of a toxic relationship, and that eventually Pokémon & people should come to understand each other so that we no longer need them. I played them back to back recently, and it was really jarring seeing Poké Balls turn from things that help connect people and Pokémon to something that we should be getting rid of, as if entirely different people wrote these games.
I'm really excited for the future videos! BW2 falters on its new characters like Hugh, but I think it has satisfying follow ups to the original cast of characters for the most part. I'd definitely suggest talking to the characters when they're teamed up with you by the way (specifically Bianca in Reversal Mountain & Cheren in Pinwheel Forest) because there's a few interesting bits of dialogue. One of which is from Bianca where she says she's not even sure if she wants to stay the Professor's assistant, which I never learned about until my most recent playthrough, implying that perhaps this isn't exactly where she wants to be and might be aiming to be a Professor? But that's just as guess.
That the game tries to present itself as mature through the themes of "are we abusing our Pokemon" only to later reveal that the champions of these themes were all either ignorant or lying is just.... really really painful to look back on. I feel like BW get such strong praise for it's story based off the premise alone, because in execution the story itself runs away from that premise and turns into a generic "bad guy taking over the world" plotline instead.
No, worse than that, like you said the game never tries to convince you that N is right at all. The other plasma grunts are transparent in how evil their true intentions are and we don't ever get to hear the opinions of the Pokemon themselves. We're always TOLD the feelings of Pokemon by other human characters, but there is never an instance when you're battling that a Pokemon, yours or your opponent's, refuses an order because "it's scared" or tries to run away.
To sell the BW premise they needed to validate N's belief in some way by actually showing us Pokemon abuse in a memorable way, such as Pokemon showing fear or resentment during a battle, and they needed to confront the issue head on at the end rather than ignoring it because "we gotta team up to take down the clearly evil threat".
Sun and Moon have better story
No, BW gets praise for its story because of how mediocre the other games are in comparison, that’s all.
A dictator will always begin with taking weapons from the people so they can't revolt. Ghetsis does the same, in a case he's genius.
I feel like compared to literally any other story in any other form of media, pokemon's story is the equivalent of old cupcakes. They're cute, stale and taste like shit.
If they showed the abuse, then PETA would light them up more. They paid lip service to it because they ultimately couldn't actually hit upon it. Ironically, BW were the games that had the most attention from PETA.
Also, Nintendo isn't exactly the best about making characters with more than two dimensions; heck, N is one-dimensional. On the other hand, kids and teens are very shallow in their analysis, and they like the surface-level stuff. It reminds me of the GBA Fire Emblem games, where people still latch on to the edginess or the supposed depth of bad guys such as Zephiel and Nergal, who don't really have any.
During my first playthrough, I really thought that the message I got after ringing the bell was something I legitimately earned after taking care of my team, making sure all of them had a good affection stat. Learning that it didn't make a difference was a bit upsetting.
JRPG moment
I think I will forever feel slightly cheated by what pokemon could've been if people didn't knee-jerk react to BW's changes and allowed the developers more freedom to expand on the basic pokemon formula.
I feel like the next opportunity we get to reward a radical change of concept (no I don't mean something like open world in SV I mean something more akin to Legends' revamp of the basic gameplay formula) we have to take it. BW offered us that chance but the poor reception likely scarred the dev's, and we only appreciated it when it was too late...
I actually think an easy way to prove N’s point in the story is with Cheren. It’s clear, he striving to be strong and wants to become the champion.
If in the story he was really harsh as a trainer, kinda like Paul, that could be a way to not only prove N’s point but also have it hit close to home to the player since Cheren is meant to be a close friend.
loved how tightly written this is! no fluff at the beginning, just get right into it, great stuff
It's funny to me that when I was an obsessive fangirl years ago, I treated these games like they're perfect and refused to listen to any criticism. Ironically enough, one of the main themes of BW was to be more open minded and listen to opinions that don't match up with your own, haha.
Great vid. I like the fact that dare in “don’t you dare challenge the systems” was in red and blue. Great detail!
Saw this on /r/TruePokemon, and wow, shockingly good video. How did you get so good at editing? Pokemon is so popular that it can feel like practically every opinion or analysis is missing something, and is usually just defined by whichever generation they want to argue was actually the best. But this video was filled with great points I had never thought of before yet feel exactly right (never thought about how Bianca and Cheren tie into truth and ideals), and points that were really satisfying to see said so well when they're so under-talked about. Praising BW as the games with the best Pokemon stories has become so popular lately, but nobody seems to acknowledge how fake the questions it asks are, and how meaningless the truth vs. ideals dichotomy is when N's alignment depends on the game you chose.
I always felt like the pacing in BW was off - prior Pokemon games structured their evil team encounters with infrequent but large incidents at major locations or bases. Whereas you almost always meet Team Plasma in frequent but minor interactions where a few grunts stole a Pokemon or something, and you never really invade a base or see them doing something big. I feel like this is another missed opportunity to make the worldview they and N believed actually have more weight. The player immediately knows they're actually bad considering all you see them do is steal Pokemon as petty thieves, and running into some more developed scenarios where they actually have more moral grayness would go a long way.
Really enjoyed the video. Feels like you got at what makes BW so interesting and stand out in good and bad ways, rather than just looking at it on the surface level. Will be sure to watch the Celeste video tomorrow; that's my favorite game.
Thank you for the kind words :)
And yeah I feel that it despite its significant flaws this still is the best story in Pokemon. Theres a legitimately interesting story happening here but it gets derailed by the games needing to not shake things up *too* much and that results in a bunch of half-measures.
Thanks again for engaging with my videos so much!
Gen 5 is easily my favourite generation to this day, and this is my favourite analysis of B/W I've seen so far. A lot of the points here vocalise thoughts I've long had about B/W's ambitions and where it fails to meet them.
PLASMA GRUNTS
I think people actually fall too much for the idea that the Plasma Grunts are a completely unified front with no diversity of thought, it's pretty clear from the little of snippets of dialogue allowed per Grunt that some of them are clearly in on Ghetsis's scheme from the start while others are firmly on N's side and genuinely believe his cause. This is more obvious in BW2 where they get colour-coded as such, but even in BW there's Grunts who don't really do anything hypocritical and make some valid points (trainers categorize Pokémon as weak or strong, that's literally what happens with tier lists!), though they of course go unaddressed.
IDEALS/TRUTH
100% agreed on how nebulously the game treats these concepts, the fact that it's just a search-and-replace says a lot about how shallow this aspect of the game is. Personally Black Version makes much more sense to me, N's thoroughly rooted himself in ideals and a vision of how the world should be, completely detached from the truth of what the world currently is (which is that it's already what it should be...). The idea of Reshiram siding with N just makes no sense at all, and honestly Zekrom has as much reason to stand with the player as N. Like you said, the player is perfect, N is wrong. The idea of the is/should dichotomy and their synthesis of a world that COULD be is seriously undermined by the fact that the world as it IS, SHOULD BE and COULD BE are already one and the same, by nature of being a utopia.
CHEREN/BIANCA
I think the games do a little bit of gameplay and story integration with Cheren and Bianca, you can tell this after beating Burgh and during the postgame, Cheren's team is 2 levels higher than Bianca's during these encounters. It's not a huge deal, but the games have always used the levels of trainers' Pokémon relative to other trainers' Pokémon accessible in the same route/area/segment as a metric of their strength. Preschoolers in Route X will have lower leveled Pokémon than an Ace Trainer on Route X, much like Bianca's levels are lower than Cheren's. Bianca also always relies on Potions during her battles, while Cheren uses Held Items instead. Bianca uses 'crutches' while Cheren uses the more strategic and demanding held items.
LIBERATE SOME POKÉMON
While N largely doesn't have a foot to stand on, there are still as you say individual cases of trainers being abusive to Pokémon, most obviously with the Evil Teams. The weird thing to me is that the games never really address the status of the Pokémon used by these Grunts, Admins and Leaders. Does Ghetsis still abuse his Hydreigon after BW2? What about Team Rocket, who all use Pokémon as tools? Why does Cyrus have a Crobat, and is it still just stuck in the Distortion World? Why did Lysandre's Pokémon fight to help him in his quest to genocide all Pokémon, including themselves? Why did Lusamine's Pokémon fight for her when she turned into a jellyfish? The games are all about Pokémon, but the Pokémon used by evil teams or other abusive trainers are never really considered at all. Shouldn't the player or some authorities confiscate their Pokémon? Would that be the right thing to do? What if the Pokémon resist, even if it'd be better for them? Actual moral ambiguity that goes completely unaddressed! We often see and hear that Pokémon are very trusting and loyal to their trainers, but we never really deal with the fact that humans will abuse that trust and do something about it, it's always about some big honking legendary Pokémon they want to control instead. We liberate the legendaries, but never the common Pokémon.
N VS COLRESS/MAXIE
Given the fact that the player has to be perfect and the status quo has to be unassailable, I think what N needed was to not be contrasted with the unassailable player but with another NPC who was on the other side of the scale. Someone like Colress or ORAS Maxie who believes it's humanity's role to take the lead to perfect and bring out the most in Pokémon, someone who thinks that humans are superior to Pokémon rather than partners as equals. Someone not lacking in love for Pokémon, but who earnestly believes that humans are right and it's good that Pokémon are unquestionably obedient, that it's better for Pokémon to prioritize the welfare of humans since it's to the benefit of Pokémon, someone who would have used machinery to dig the Rusturf tunnel. But we only got that when it was too late, and Colress never got to meet or talk with N. And that's a shame. Also, this is starting to sound like a repeat of Teams Aqua and Magma. Maybe ORAS was on to something.
Super cool comment! Sorry I'm only reading it now. "We liberate the legendaries, but never the common Pokémon." is such a strong point that applies to pretty much all the games? Just a few more Pokemon characters with convincing agency would go such a long way. And interesting perspective on Colress! I haven't played B/W2 in a long time but I'm going to make a video on them soonish and I'm excited to see what I think about that character.
But N DOES have a leg to stand on?
The liberation is revealed to be a mask for getsis's true plans of world domination. Because if team plasma are the only ones with pokemon, there would be no one to oppose them. Also, it's nice that N isn't just truth and ideals, but also N represents a grey area in a game of black and white world views.
Just stumbled across this video and I am genuinely surprised you don’t have a bigger following. It was a really well done video. Keep it up!
Having just finished White for the first time a couple days ago, I feel like this really articulated a lot of the thoughts I had while playing! I was so excited when you mentioned how N having to represent both truth and ideals confused the themes of the games, that had been bothering me so much lol. Really stellar editing as well, I'm looking forward to binging your other videos over the next week!
This is such a well put together video.
I agree with almost absolutely everything in this video, and honestly this is so fresh just coming off my first ever play through of Black version which I just beat a day or two ago. B/W have become some of my favorite games of all time and while not every theme landed as there was a lot of water left untread the general emphasis on certain ideas and more complex beliefs brought into question was a great way to hook the player.
I'd say the mid portions of the game are where it was most evident that not every single ideal would be properly challenged but I was thoroughly surprised when reaching the endgame to discover details such as the divide between Plasma members as some would outright side with Ghetsis and his standing of Pokémon being mere tools while on the other hand...some Plasma members genuinely love their Pokémon and are only a part of Plasma to serve and elevate N to communicate his message to the world. This sort of contrast made me see N in a whole different light as not just a misguided antagonist, but a necessary antagonist to balance out the good and evil of the world by bringing a somewhat unconventional viewpoint.
N is perhaps my favorite character in Pokémon not strictly because of the challenges he poses and the questions he asks, but the moral ambiguity he carries by the climax and end, seeing how his world view shattered with just one. single. battle.
It isn't merely about the player being a purely perfect representation of truth but instead N discovering the truth and how he responds to it which is what you described as being disappointing; however, I'd argue that it was the perfect setup for how N is treated and implemented in the sequels(no spoilers in case you replay them and do a video on them). N instead of lashing out or digressing in his development and knowledge(which is a common trap so many other "sympathetic" characters fall into) actively steps back to think upon his actions, his potential, and the future at hand. Instead of some unfulfilling resent or hatred towards the player, he is grateful for being saved by you, being saved by the truth. Ghetsis I think was a necessary evil to allow N to keep his purity while still aiding in Team Plamas goal. It made N redeemable without being already aware of his mistakes before the climax.
This is all just my interpretation of course but it's interesting to see other perspectives, perhaps the main thing B/W failed to properly acknowledge. Once again, great video and I'm looking forward to seeing more thought provoking takes like this one.
Thank you! Yeah my analysis here very much treats B/W as a stand-alone piece of media, and doesn't take into account any future depictions of N. This made the project small enough for me to finish in a reasonable amount of time, but based on your comment and a few others ended up limiting it a bit. Definitely want to revisit B2/W2 in the future! Seems like it could make things much complicated which is always fun.
@@Skyehoppers I would look forward to that! I'm just experiencing my first ever play through of Black 2 right now actually. There's been a lot less stop-and-go with this one and I'm already 19 hours in so hopefully the story expands the first in a satisfying way. I'm gonna be checking out your Celeste video next, so expect to see me again soon lol
I definitely don’t think it’s the intended reading, but one other way to interpret N’s storyline is as exploring how a worldview centred around one’s own traumatic experiences can be flawed. His past experiences with Pokémon abuse could be considered traumatic, especially taking into account his unique bond with them, as well as the fact that Ghestis has been (presumably) grooming and isolating him to keep this perception intact. This interpretation maybe gives the storyline more credit than it deserves, as it reframes the ending as a positive moment of growth, but I also like the way it frames N; as a trauma survivor honestly doing his best to ensure the harm that was done to him (and Pokémon he is close to) never happens again, and though he is going about it in a way incompatible with the reality of the world he lives in, it doesn’t frame him as evil or villainous, only gentle and considerate. It’s also an uncommon, arguably quite bold narrative choice, and I think it would’ve been interesting to play with more.
Black and white are some of the greatest Pokémon games out there, don't get me wrong I put a *lot* of hours into ORAS (and then went back and replayed Ruby then Emerald). But Black and white are just different, it's world felt a lot more realistic, and the story it told tackled a philosophical question that encouraged multiple points of view.
finished the entire video and was shocked to see it only have 5k views! this is an incredibly high quality work and a really nice insight into the game even amongst so many other black and whte retrospective type videos, great job!
5:06
That transition was God Tier
I agree with this video wholeheartedly! While these games are my favorite in the saga, ever since I played them for the first time (back when I was 12) it always bugged me how N never really had a chance, and how the narrative clearly sided with the player character. And that felt *wrong*, even to my 12-year-old mind. I guess this is partly because I related so much to N (raised extremely sheltered, failing to understand people j
yet relating to animals, being passionate about physics and science, and the list goes on but that's not the point) but it caused me great dissonance how the game tried to advocate for diversity of ideas while also picking a side.
Now that I've grown up, I can see even *more* problems with the games, the stark contrast between what the game is telling you (diversity good, different ideas make the world better) vs. What it is showing you (you are always right, don't question the system).
In a way, these games feel like the Tenahu of Pokémon, a more mature installment of a long recognizable saga that tries to tackle the issues that the previous books/games didn't want you to think about, with varying degrees of success.
Still my favorite Pokemon games though.
Honestly just reading all the comments from people who connected strongly with the fifth generation makes me think that maybe the writing was more successful than I initially thought! Clearly it left an impact on people and it seems like people remember the ideas it suggests much more clearly than the way it dismisses them.
@@SkyehoppersNo, you were initially correct
2:39 I almost cried
Honestly banger of a video!
Tbh even as a kid playing bw the story always felt like the writers WANTED to tell a very complex and nuanced story with ethics and finding the balance between truth and ideals and all that and have the gameplay reflect that--and then once most of the story was written higher ups/execs went "wait no we cant let any doubt be put in the players mind that catching and battling pokemon is wrong! Rewrite it!"
And then the writers had like. Two weeks to edit out all the controversial sounding stuff and finish it up real quick and wrap it all up in a neat bow
Also honestly will never be over how many folks now who are yelling at GF to do something different were the same ones who didnt buy BW or BW2 and/or hounded and hated on it for having all new mons/older ones only being available after and just changing things up in general. Like yall are the reason why Pokemon games are in a rut in the first place. Nintendo was afraid something new wouldn't sell and you proved them right. What did you all expect?
Idk, I was a BW1er the entire time(Started with them and liked them the most) and "waking up" to the idea that the games actually were not so great actually makes me agree with the majority that it succeeding would not have been a great thing, even if the alternative we got is suboptimal.
And BW2 was always a lot more like the other games in the series from the start, it was not part of BW's attempt to innovate on the fomula.
Yeah that‘s cool and all but what if me and N made out tho?
You’re so real for that
you take N I’m taking Ghetsis 🤑🤑
yessssssssssssssss!@@Flizz0
thx uwu@@viperguru2547
@@takke9830 Absolutely comrade -A fellow N simp🫡
I think the fact that it's not clear which one of the legendaries is supposed to represent ideals and which truth is the point.
The truth is seen as the good and right thing, but in reality is often uncomfortable and scary.
Ideals are experienced as how things should be made to be or already are, and it being good that way, but often they are misinformed and incomplete.
Many people reject the truth because it does not align with their ideals.
Many people reject ideals because they don't align with what the truth appears to be.
And often the truth is confused for ideals and ideals for the truth.
How things are isn't always how they should be, and how things should be isn't always how they are.
Personally I think Reshiram represents ideals. Your own ideals are always thought of as right and good, how things should be, because of course if they weren't you wouldn't hold them. Reshiram gives me the impression of a pure and noble being, or it being supposed to be, which is what your ideals seem to you.
Zekrom represents the truth. The truth is often messy, dark and confusing, uncomfortable and often in direct conflict in how things should be, or how you think they should be at least.
In the end, which one of those is represented by Reshiram and which one by Zekrom is ultimately up to how you view them yourself.
If what you experience is knowing the truth or chasing an ideal isn't something that you can differenciate from your own point of view.
tbh I feel like the plot would have been better suited to a spinoff with its own mechanics systems, and that way it wouldn't run the risk of alienating core fans. Like how legends arceus folds a lot of the energy of the world with people being afraid of pokemon into pokemon being actually able to attack humans out of battles. They have pretty legitimate reasons to be afraid of these forces of nature that could kill them with a breath and chew through their houses. Not sure what mechanics would translate super well to a b&w story though.. something closer to pokemon rangers, maybe? Maybe just go full pet sim and not catch pokemon in balls at all, just befriend them? Not sure. But I feel like there's potential.
Great video.
One of the only times this video platform autoplayed onto something great! After just coming off KayJulers video highlighting the good (seasons, music, etc.) you've equally reminded me what I didn't like about the story. Tempted to replay now, knowing the shortcomings in advance I may not bounce off as I did years ago
1:19 the problem is more that these are redundant designs that try to eclipse what already exists instead of building on an established Pokemon with an evolution or form. One of the big reasons why a lot of Alolan forms work is because they invert this dilemma by giving the older Pokemon more complexity and therefore making the blatant copy less heinous
I always hear people say this, but other than a couple examples like Bouffalant I think they did a good job giving the ones character. Woobat has a totally vibe than Zubat, to my eyes
@@Skyehoppers The woobat line and the Beartic line are probably the best example of similar design that still feels decently distinct. Honestly, the move Heart Stamp was even a fairly decent coverage option for a surprising number of Pokemon. I would just much prefer that Bouffalant, Alomomola, Zebstrika, Garbodor and Excadrill were evolutions of older Pokemon rather than stand alone because they just feel like better versions of their originals.
Though, its not like I hate most of them anymore since regional variants have largely reversed the damage that most of them have incurred. Still waiting for a Tauros and Luvdisc form
Literally how do you have 500 subscribers and not at least 200k?
Very good video!
Thank you! We're still just getting started 😤
Best Pokémon analysis I've seen on this platform so far, nice job not falling into the common trap of taking the game too literally or too metaphorically but just comprehensively viewing it as a cohesive whole - mostly saying this because I'm sick of channels that take media analysis as an objective science that one can research and form theories about, rather than just viewing art as art
Nice profile picture
Just wanted to say thank you for this video.
For the last few years, BW has been heavily praised. It was my first mainline game and I have a massive soft spot for it. But in recent years it feels like people have been a bit blinded by their nostalgic. BW is fantastic but it's not perfect, it has flaws. Hearing a balanced essay on it is extremely refreshing and managed to do a game that's very close to my heart justice.
Beyond the story it's not really that good otherwise
Amazing video. not only was this great analysis of the story of b/w, but I've never seen so much creativity poured into the editing alone, keep up the good work.
I think black and white was weird because instead of having a nuisance talk about it they turned them into cartoon villians. Its like in batman when bain was attacking wallstreet and corrupt gothem but then decided he ALSO wanted to blow up the city because reasons.
cant believe this doesnt have more views, i liked how you presented this!
Great Analysis! I really enjoyed that you brought up a lot of the context in the series for how they were received, why that happened, and how some way or another it led to a big decline in sales. I wonder if it was just DS burnout, I'll cling to that idea cause I love Gen5 haha.
I do think there's some really interesting stuff that BW2 build off the storylines and concepts that make them either my fav or 2nd fav in the series.
Thank you! And yeah ds burnout could the reason but at the same time sun/moon sold better even though it was late in the 3ds, a console that fewer people owned. And honestly Id love to dive into B2W2 from the same angle. It's been so long that I hardly remember the plot at this point
i remember N asking you to join him on the ferris wheel and being incredibly disappointed to find out saying yes did nothing. like… yes king!! i see your point!!!! let me join!!!!
when you repeated the line about not challenging the system, my eyes widened like a lot
19:13 i’m a bit late to the convo since this vid came out 2 years ago but after you beat burgh, you fight bianca and cheren nearly back to back, and iirc bianca is still around lenora’s level while cheren was either the same level or the level after burghs leavanny, but tbf i only noticed this since my team of 2 at the time were lvl 28 or so
edit: there’s also moments like when you enter dragonspiral tower (and some point later) where after the first crash, you see a text box show up, seemingly a narrator or imo, the player character(s), which could be sayin that they were planning a real protagonist, akin to your normal jrpgs
The other thing about the central narrative that bugs me is that not all philosophical conflicts are created equal, and while the idea of "past vs present" that comes up a few times is something that can have an agree to disagree element, "is the foundation of our society inherently abusive" is not. If Team Plasma was sincere and correct in their beliefs, the no, compromise wouldn't be the correct and moral option. It's something that nagged at me the whole time, because I have seen that problem in fiction with real life issues, which, eugh.
Other thoughts: I think the idea of an artfully constructed Chosen One for your world revolution is fascinating, just not the right one for a morally ambiguous game. Also, even if many NPCs are just platitude dispensers, a few of them hit me like a train. The old man in Driftveil in B2/W2 who says that he doesn't regret releasing his Pokemon despite the fact that Team Plasma was wrong, because he doesn't have very long left anyway had me reeling.
Plasma should've just been a religious cult, all the sages and chosen one stuff fits that better and it's more relevant to the America inspired setting.
i find it awesome that you can tell wether if a plasma grunt is an N's loyalist or a future neo plasma member by their dialogue
Love your video! One thing I would like to say is that I believe Cheren uses held items and Bianca doesn't, and while there could be more it is somewhat supported in the gameplay. The balance that you struck in this being a critique video that manages to feel overall neutral is great! Would love to see you grow more as a channel.
Oh thats a really cool detail! Totally missed that. And thank you for the kind words :) Ill try my best to keep making videos like this
@@Skyehoppers I would love that! Hope your doing well :)
While I get your point that NYC doesn’t have a desert, I’ve always heard that area was supposed to represent Ground Zero.
Fantastic video! Your analysis on BW is spot on and really hits at why they weren't as well received at the time of release. I would love to see you cover Black & White 2, if for any reason just to see how much they dropped the ball.
Thank you! And yeah I initally wanted to play BW2 for the video as well but realized it was going to take too much time. Its been a long time now since I played it so I dont remember the plot particularly well and whether or not it contributes much to the theming of the originals. Would love to cover it someday!
@@Skyehoppers keep it up! You've got some real skill and a a unique voice. Don't let the algorithm keep you down. Gonna watch some more of your videos later today. 😊
Bro instant an sub for you, the quality is impressive
As someone who hasn’t played the games in years, this was a very nice refresher on the BW series but with a much more sophisticated perspective/analysis of the story compared to a younger version of myself. Great work with this video, I definitely agree with a lot of your points and you delivered them in a fun and engaging matter!
Now here’s where I believe the BW arc is redeemed. The **manga** (easily my favorite version of the pokemon storyline as someone who primarily grew up only playing the games and watching the anime)
**Spoiler warning for the manga**
There is so much more depth to all the characters and especially team plasma that really sell their ambitions and ideals to be more believable. From the very first speech Ghetsis makes to the crowd in a small town, his words captivate dozens of people, even inspiring some of them to release their pokemon believing it to be for the best. But their reactions to his words really help to sell it (something the game or anime couldn’t do as effectively). Some of the trainers were very disturbed, even distraught having loved their pokemon for so long but being manipulated into letting them go by the guilt created by Ghetsis in his rhetoric. Ghetsis brings up so many genuine points that I never asked myself when I was younger. Are trainers really bonding and forming meaningful relationships with their pokemon by forcing them to battle against their will and keeping them trapped inside pokeballs? (I was guilty of catching pokemon and keeping them in my pc box for the rest of eternity lol) The protagonist of the story, Black, is infuriated by this because all his life, he had dreamed of becoming the greatest trainer in Unova. He had formed meaningful relationships with his two pokemon that he nurtured and played with throughout his childhood. And now someone would dare tell him that he was guilty of not listening to the voices of his pokemon and forcing them to follow **his** dreams without consideration for theirs? Well, Ghetsis was right to an extent.”
In the manga, N is the hero of ideals and as a result awakens Zekrom in the later half of the story. Much like the games, N wasn’t a “completed” character. He wasn’t echoing the words and ideals of his father, but rather still trying to discover the truth for himself. It's thanks to his encounters with Black and White (the main characters in the manga) that he finally establishes his own ideals in response to their flawed viewpoints which justifies Ghetsis and team plasma’s ideals.
For instance, White (one of the two main protagonists) was the president of her own movie agency and had a pretty exaggerated schedule of a daily routine like getting her Tepig’s nails done at 1 pm, rehearsing from 2-4 pm, dinner at 5pm, etc (im just making the times up). Details like this really gave us a better idea of White’s character and personality. She was a girl with big dreams just like Black who got too caught up in her fantasy that she failed to realize what her partner really wanted. She forced her own dreams and aspirations onto Tepig without giving them the choice to choose between pursuing showbiz or battling. N realized this and in their 2nd meeting, N confronted White and tried to show her the truth. White instead denied it and tried to escape the ferris wheel N had lured her to, refusing to accept the truth. However, her Tepig decides to stay with N who is giving them the opportunity to learn how to battle and become stronger. This is the first major turning point of the story and it ends with a completely broken main character whose best friend just chose a stranger over her.
Earlier in the story, N was still trying to figure out whether there was more meaning to being a trainer and whether Ghetsis' ideals were right in the first place, but his experiences with Black and White helped convince him that this was the right path. However, one of the beauties of the manga over its counterparts is its character development. White is completely shattered and distraught after Tepig leaves her. Rather than giving up, she decides to listen to N and try to learn the art of battling despite her dreams of pursuing showbiz. She catches her own pokemon for the first time (with the help of Black) and even embarks on her own journey to become stronger. The next time she meets N, she thanks him for helping her realize the truth and is even reunited with her Tepig who White can finally understand. This really drives home the main point the story is making, that having different viewpoints isn’t always a battle between good or evil. Life wasn't just a matter of **BLACK AND WHITE**. Instead, it’s through having different viewpoints from others and being able to accept them instead of single narrowly rejecting them that we can learn and grow as individuals.
You mentioned that the game undermines itself because the only “bad” acts being committed are by team plasma themselves, but in the manga N exposes everyone and I mean EVERYONE. Both the protagonists, the gym leaders, Alder, EVEN PROFESSOR JUNIPER. By having his Zorua spy on her the day the starters were sent to Black, Bianca, and Cheren, N was able to learn that Professor Juniper chose to neglect the three pokemon on their nerve racking first day. She was instead “talking on the phone all day” and N stated “I also know that you didn’t hand the starters to their trainers personally, you had them **delivered** instead. You **prepared** those pokemon. You **sent** those pokemon. This proves that you think pokemon are **things**.” (My mind was blown here)
This moment in the manga completely flipped N from seemingly being the neutral antagonist into a true protagonist and liberator while the main characters were now seen as the “bad” guys. The games kept trying to push the main character as a pure and perfect trainer but it was quite the opposite in the manga. Both Black and White suffered through hardships and realized devastating truths about their ideals that made them change and grow into better characters. Sorry for the long analysis but I hope this could shed some light on the manga and its remarkable effort to turn the BW arc into something much greater than the games or anime ever could. (also im an animator and will be making a super cool project on the BW arc in a few years :D)
All you’ve done is made me appreciate Pokemon Black and White even more and now I want to replay them
Gee I really like this video, you deserve more attention! this was a very well made analysis and made me think a little more of this game's imperfections. I hope your channel continues to grow!
I was reading Vagabond and Berserk while playing B&W during the pandemic and it couldn't have been a more compatible combination as B&W covers the topic of what it really means to be strong (referring to Alder and Cheren) and it was one of the most memorable experiences I've had in my life, and marks B&W as my favorite pokemon game of all time
Honestly I am generally saddened by the amount of lore Pokemon accidentally introduced over the years with absolutely no exploration of them whatsoever. Black and White is the most disappointing in that regard but every single game has these great little pieces of juicy world building that are ripe for exploration and it just... Never happens.
True!
This is an exceptionally good video. For a video of this quality I absolutely would have expected you to have way more subscribers.
Dam this hit deep, great video and I need to watch this again so I can offer my own thoughts as well
excellent, excellent video! Pokemon Black and White have always stood out to me from other mainlines regardless of personal nostalgia, but if you asked me I probably wouldn't be able to explain it in ways that aren't already obvious; the music, spritework, or the fact that the story IS different from other mainlines. very cool to see what I can only subconsciously gather and vaguely understand/feel from playing the games be fully conveyed. love the editing too!
gonna check out the rest of your channel, it's also cool to see a relatively new and smaller channel just doin their thing and I hope it continues to grow!
really enjoyed this video ^^ ur editing is so nice
Thank you!
The quality of this video is unreal. And not even 3k subs? Dude you did the impossible. Great job man, loved the inverted colors and other little touches you did.
After all the praise I've seen gen 5 get, it's surprisingly refreshing to hear genuine criticism regarding the themes that gen 5 tried to tell but failed to execute. Comparing N's ignorant beliefs and his loss to the current state of Pokémon games being a byproduct of BW's failure on sales is just a heart wrenching revelation.
How is that true? I’m searching up sales of B/W and it’s 15 million compared to Platinum that sold 7.6 million….I’m so confused.
Edit: oh nvm that’s why D/P sold 17 million copies aka first Ds games compared to ones on the last lifespan and it almost outsold D/P lmao gen 5 just came at a bad time in History especially when everyone was expecting the 5th gen to be on the 3Ds…..
The black and white protag goes on a journey to a faraway region to search for N, don't they? So, maybe they did learn something from N.
This entire story should have been told through the perspective of N.
32:53 I don't know if you made this on purpose, but the fact that the first sign with color is the last one and those colors are red and blue, the first pokémon games, in the moment when you say that pokémon games can no longer innovate is awesome
Overall I really agree but one point when it comes to N’s argument being weaker due to the version differences,, I’d argue the version differences changing which side of the truth/ideal argument strengthens N’s argument.
If we take the games from Pokémon White’s perspective, with N being the hero of truth and player being hero of ideals;
The *Truth* is that in the Pokémon world there are corrupt trainers who abuse Pokémon. There are people who don’t deserve Pokémon. In a *Ideal* world, no trainer should ever abuse a Pokémon, and the world should push towards self improvement for the good of people and Pokémon.
If we take black’s perspective, with N as ideals and the player as truth; *Truthfully* , people and Pokémon can coexist together in harmony. But there are many bad actors, and *Ideally* we should educate people better and help save Pokémon in bad situations to help the greater good.
Each argument holds Truth in what they are saying, as well as push towards a better Ideal future. It all comes down to someone’s Perspective. Both arguments want what’s best for Pokémon. And the game hinges on N learning the other’s perspective to have a better world view/understanding. The game changing wether N is speaking the truth or revolutionizing for a ideal world, the game shows regardless of which way he is showing his viewpoint, they both are valid. Gen 5 in my mind boils down to learning to accept others differences, and working together despite differences. Diversity towards prosperity.
Though I do wish the games and the sequels did better at showing this. I wish the sequels showed more that the world heard and recognized N’s message. And that we could see that. Hell even if it’s a small one off optional scene showing a trainer being mean to their Pokémon, and you are able to go and get help to rescue that Pokémon. Just something that showed abusive trainers that ARENT just in a evil team. Just another average NPC, ones that share the same models with other townsfolk’s that you’ve crossed paths with hundreds of times. Or to be able to find abandoned pokemon, maybe w similar animations like the N Pokémon or in overworld Pokémon balls, and that you can take them to a Pokémon ranch of sorts so they can recover from the trauma of their trainer deleting them from the pc/leaving them behind. Just something that showed Unova did hear and respond to the truth in N’s arguments, and are working towards a better, ideal world.
Black and White is a love letter to people that want amazing stories. To me, a good rpg is one that storms the minds of those who play it and make them feel deeply passionate about the story and it's characters. Black and White was the first Pokemon game i ever got as an actual gift, it was my own game. And that i completed 100% without any help. Not only it was amazing, but also a heartwarming experience. Such characters, trials, tribulations and the fight for ideals, was something amazing to identify with as a teenager. It was just at the age people like me were asking those questions.
Undoubtedly, they were hidden gems. And it's a shame that only years later, we realize they were.
I deeply connected with N, the player, the people of unova and team plasma when I played white for the first time.
The conflicts between all of them were a reflection of something that was fresh in my mind at the time, with getting aware of the disasterous impact that humans have on the environment and organizations like peta that claim to be about animal rights on the surface but are horrendous beneath that. The morality of training and battling pokemon has also been a frequent topic in the anime which I had been actively watching at the time.
N addressing legitimate issues but being blind to the nuance of the situation due to being purpusefully sheltered.
Team Plasma posing with good intentions, feigning a desire to prevent things they themselves are actively doing, with the real goal being to take over by force once the partnerships between people and pokemon have been dismantled.
And the player who is just assumed to be right with the first thing the game tells them.
All of them have a point in one way or another.
And the more I think about it today the more I see the real world parallels.
Ngl that intro is one of the most marvellous segments I've seen in a video essay. Really good stuff.
A small nice detail would have been to unlock HGSS Pokemon following you around after you beat the game
To show you did learn a bit from what N told you about Pokeballs and all that
It was actually supposed to be a feature before it was scrapped
Pokémon White was my first Pokémon game and to this day remains my favorite and a fond memory for me, and a game I have recently returned to. The story and characters have always gripped me, but gripped me especially as an adult. I know it's not above any criticism 😅 But I've always had hope in a potential remake would add in newer mechanics that involve interacting with your Pokémon like Pokémon amie and skill checks throughout the game that gauge how your Pokémon feel about you and that certain events can change in relation to. It's the limitations of this story belonging in an established game series that must first and foremost be a game that undermines so much of what it hopes to be, exactly as you discussed in the final part of the video. "Don't challenge the systems." Is an unfortunately nihilistic takeaway, but not an untrue one. 😅 I suppose for as much as B/W does accomplish, and the lasting impression on the older fanbase for what it could have been will always affect me; I'm glad these strides were taken, these situations posed, because even they couldn't be seen to fruition as they deserved because of expectation and limitation, I think it's great that they exist in the first place. And I think it's perfectly fine in our current fandom world to take what we like from media and build, expand, and discuss it within our own spaces. Because capitalism always wins, but at least we can share our feelings about what we love and how they can be better. 😆
This was a really great video. I played Pokémon White when it came out a decade ago, and just finished replaying PKMN B/W for the first time in nearly five years, and I've been looking in video essays and other content now as an adult to help me overcome my nostalgia and be more critical about the game that changed my life and got me into fandom in the first place. And honestly, I still love these games. They mean more to me now than ever before, and even with everything masterly said by yourself and others, I'm glad these games did what they did even with everything that happened in and around them that wasn't to our utmost expectations. Because I think that matters all the same. A remake would lose a lot of the stunning visuals of the original, but maybe a new generation of Pokémon players may be more receptive to B/W now, especially with new interactions with Pokémon and quality of life updates. I can only hope. 😊 But I think that because we still talk about B/W there IS merit to challenging the system. Because if we didn't, if we always just moved on and discussed the newest thing, there wouldn't be any point; capitalism and expectation always push us on to the new thing, the improved thing. And yet here we still are, discussing low stakes children games (one of the few times it tried to up said stakes 😆). And I think discussion is important. As important as diversity, and I think that's something B/W does convey well.
Hell yeah, I love comments like this :) Im happy my video could help you think about this weird and cool and flawed game more. It means a lot to me too ❤
I've had similar issues with Legends:Arceus. Seeing how the Pokémon roam free, and how the Diamond/Pearl Clan are unsure about Pokéballs and the expedition going around catching Pokémon left and right had me side with them. With the huge amount of Pokémon I caught and beat up, I started to feel more like a poacher than a researcher. Thankfully though, God told me that's a-ok, and even encouraged me to do some more poaching and dog-fighting.
dude... the quality of this video is fantastic! The transitions were especially good, but even beyond the visual magic the substance remained clear, calm, and concise, all without becoming monotone. even mentioned points I never heard before. If the rest of your content is even half as good as this you deserve every sub you have + 1.000.000 more.
I went into gen 5 after a 3-4 year break right after completing gen 4. Being confronted with such a wildly different tone, and the idea that catching / battling pokemon was potentially a bad thing... It was such a breath of fresh air. I really do think I fell in love with gen 5 after reaching that first cutscene with ghetsis.
I remember reading a while back that the story for BW was reigned in, that the writers wanted to take it further... I don't remember where I read this, if it was a reliable source or not... But I do still believe it. Like stated in the video, the games are the backbone of *the* most profitable series/IP. I think gen 5 was supposed to be more, with the tone at the start of the game.
I so wish they had made more games in the vein of gen 5.
I'd believe it too! Would love to see what the story would have been if the writers had free rein to make it whatever they wanted.
N losing doesnt mean hes wrong he says it himself that him losing only meant that the player was more determined and believed more in their values than him
This was actually an interesting thing to think about. I never finished my copy of White before Black and White 2 came out, so I never finished the story. However, I remember being very fond of N and trying to internalize and think about the idea that he was right. While it's sad to see that his view never could have been truly explored by the games, I wish they continued like this. The Yin-Yang philosophy also intrigued me. All in all, this was an educational experience and I might take some of your points and implement it into my camp nanowrimo project if that's okay?
Oh, yeah that's totally okay!
It’s funny. I’m coming off a play-through of HeartGold, and genuinely what this game needed, especially since it was being marketed towards kids and the franchise as a whole still is….was an antagonist like Silver to contrast with N.
Bianca is fun, and Cheren is your usual “friendly rival” even if he’s quite dour and serious about it.
But Silver? The rival from Gen 2 literally has the arc of being cruel to his Pokémon, but it’s all second hand, told from others and reinforced by his claims. But even in the remake games, his Pokémon don’t have anyone using “frustration” or anything to telegraph this further. But my point? The idea was there, well before the anime got there in force with Paul.
Having a slightly less cartoon villain Plasma(which admittedly is rewriting damn near the whole game) that is actually on-board mostly with their ideals from the start, with Ghetsis being actually really shitty to his Pokémon being a “straw that broke the camels back” situation for N…and maybe even Plasma as a whole.
But you’re bang on the money, and it’s been reinforced since; you can’t fuck with the winning formula. Nintendo and the fanbase(back then) agreed that to try something bold like this can’t happen again, and I’ll be honest I think taking the plot of N seriously would have derailed the franchise on the whole. It’s notable that I was a Gen 1 kid, grew up with Team Rocket, and their refreshing lack of morals. They are just the mob, really.
But my sister is much younger then me, and jumped in, really, at Gen 4(as those were the first games I wasn’t effectively playing for her) and she loved Black and White.
I’ll admit now; Pokémon was a delicious comfort food for me back then. I liked my complicated media, always have, but Pokémon was like eating junk food, really tasty but it wasn’t trying to fill a moral itch. Just a damn good fun time.
But I was primed on Gen 1 and 2; uncomplicated was the story I was used to for Pokémon. But Gen 3 began to introduce more nuance, especially with emerald combining the plots of Hoenns villain teams in a way that definitely felt environmentally conscious(even if it falls well short of any major critique).
My sister grew up with Pokémon villains who had more going on; Team Rocket felt shallow to her. Black and White are close to her favourites, even if Diamond and Pearl win for nostalgia reasons(every person remembers their first real game).
In hindsight, Black and White are the kind of things I generally like to see in game, and I know a lot of criticisms were blind nostalgic memories poisoning my experience. I do remember being blown away by the cities. Even the new Pokémon didn’t really bother me as I could get my old ones in the postgame…but the games felt too alien on the whole to me. Which, ironically, was the point.
You couldn’t try this plot in Kanto; it had to happen in an idealized version of America.
I think this is something beyond business that goes understated; just how Japanese Pokémon is. All 4 prior regions were Japanese in theme, and the attitude in Japan is “status quo is god”. Beyond rational business reasons, not messing with the systems is endemic in their very ordered society as it is.
To his credit, I think Masuda did his best earnest attempt at trying to be more bold and nuanced in the story. But in a fit of supreme irony lost on a lot of Americans(I’m not one myself) is that a lot of Americans rightfully question everything, including their society. That makes you simultaneously unable to accept praise if you feel it’s not deserved either. Masuda made an idealized US because his experience in meeting Americans and seeing NYC was to wonder and marvel at the diversity in almost every way, and coming from both an ethnically and culturally homogeneous society like Japan, it must have felt very alien.
So it feels a bit too strong and overbearing as most North Americans are a lot more jaded. But N as a character couldn’t be Japanese; it took going to a non-Japanese region to show a major break from the norm.
It’s unfortunate it flopped. I do think the DS finally going the way of the dodo didn’t help sales, so I don’t think it’s just the games story and Hostiles fans that held it back.
Looking back, it at least felt daring. Modern Pokémon is so safe and stale that I find myself looking at the games I derided for being too divergent and wondering if I was too harsh. Vindicated by history is where I think these games sit now, both mechanically and in story.
Fan games and rom hacks are how we’ll get that alternative experience now, I think.
that transition at 9:27 is so sick
this dude deserves more subs ong. only 4k??? his editing is like that of those with millions
I think N saying that exposure to different ideas changes the world is very true in the game. He has been sheltered his entire life, but the world he was kept from wasn't. It was breathing, evolving, changing, improving. It's the contrast between the world which allowed the chemical reaction and the world that didn't