Aspects are a great idea that FATE implements, but they implement in an uninspired way. Aspects just create modifiers. Which is... boring. Plus, it makes different aspects mechanically identical, the only distinction being when to apply them. To me this is a waste of an idea. On top of that, FATE uses a metacurrency, a complete immersion-breaker in my book, very extensively and systematically.
Aspects are modifiers yes. But they also true elements of the narrative. It's like the players can do ANYTHING they want and it can be portrait in the game world. In D&D you would need special rules for every possible thing the players could do that generates narrative AND mechanical effects. (Hope my non native english is good enough to be understood)
Clearly a critic by someone who have not read well the core book. There's à whole chaotee about extra that can simulate magical or technological objects or even superpower. Aspect are just some good luck moment or some moment when you wanna makes sure that the camera is focused on your character because of who he is and what he does and know.
@@quintenskevin I think Fate is not good at that either. That being simulating magic, technology or superpowers. It all kind of feels the same, it just influences the dice a little bit. And aspects are no different. A cool concept, wasted as it is transformed into modifiers.
As a fellow lover of Fate, and someone that may a very generalized guide of How to Play Fate, this video makes some good points. I think honestly you could bring these points to a number of smaller ttrpg developers, as I think they get a little too close to the material to see the forest for the trees. Still, a wonderful system, and I'm glad to see more folks covering it.. Well thought and structured video.
I had gotten into Fate with age of Arthur, and I remember thinking it would be amazing when Evil Hat brought out more settings for the system. But so many of them never clicked with my table group, and some of it I could never really put my finger on why that was. I think this video summed it up nicely. It was too big a jump to the left, and it’s vagueness was strength and weakness. I have found the same with Cortex myself as well, although with Tales of Xadia it might be more concrete. What Fate game would you recommend trying to see if the muse can come back? Worlds of Fire I find are too brief, wondering what your suggestion would be
@@Preppyicon my suggestion is finding a genre and picking one of the full blown fate settings that fit, not a “worlds of.” The worlds of books are more like examples of how you can use fate to make other games, and aren’t really enough to run a long campaign. (Mostly) For sci fi, Bulldogs is great if you like firefly/Farscape. Mindjammer is more trans human and harder. Diaspora uses an older version of fate, but is hard sci fi. Starship Tyche is more Star Trek fate. Fate Freeport is D&D plus Cthulhu fate. Fate of Cthulhu is pulp Cthulhu where your PC’s can actually be from the future where the mythos won, and have travelled back in time to try and stop it. Or they can be modern people. Dresden fate (accelerated, though the older base version is great too) for urban fantasy and a great magic system. Atomic Robo for pulp fate. There are so many.
"this is the thesis statement of Fate Core: the less potent the character’s narrative, the less likely the character is to succeed." absolutely perfect thesis statement that encapsulates how amazing FATE truly is
@@chadhardt6136 It's a limit on the game that's on the player rather than the character. So a player can't enjoy a game and setting that that may love by relying on die rolls rather than being a creative actor. Some people prefer that, or can't do otherwise. Doesn't affect me so much--I'm a GM with 35 years experience, with 30 years of one campaign in that history.
@@thekaxmax Any game will depend on some kind of skill, if the player is to have any agency at all. In something like D&D, your character is limited by the player's number crunchy wargaming skill and general system mastery. Fate on the other hand runs on narrative so naturally and inevitably it depends on narrative skill. Ultimately this boils down to 'a game depends on player skills in whatever the game is about'. If you don't want a game relying on narrative, you probably don't want a Fate game, and if you don't want wargamey system mastery, you probably don't want a D&D game.
@@Elukka and FATE rewards actors and social quick-thinkers, not the general run of social-misfit/social-anxiety-ridden/OCD-spectrum gamers, which it punishes. Unless the GM helps them a lot.
"INT is their dump stat lol." That was what was ridiculously hard to catch phrase that seems like it was it flashed by in maybe 1-2 frames at 8:01 . Have to save someone else the headache :)
Just a single frame; if you watch this on a computer, the "," and "." keys can be used to step back or forwards one frame at a time. Oh, and also the text on screen is (very appropriately) mispelled, having "their" written as as "thier"
I have never felt a video so hard. I had so much trouble both in running and introducing a Fate-based game (The Dresden Files RPG) to my D&D group and no one ever felt comfortable with how to invoke their aspects or how to deal with combat. We had one amazing combat where someone figured out a few tricks and they managed to take down a BBEG while being relatively lower powered ONCE and then for some reason it just never clicked with them ever again. I actually sent this video to my group and went 'THIS! THIS IS THE ISSUE!' so thank you. Also just in general I've found your videos to be super thoughtful and insightful and you're probably one of my favorite new TTRPG channels. I'm amazed your following isn't higher at this point. You've got great content, please please PLEASE keep rolling.
Dresden Files RPG is a Fate based game, but it's not Fate Core. It is came from before Fate Core (and after Spirit of the Century). In my opinion, DFRPG was even harder to grok than Fate Core was. If you ever want to consider revisiting Fate, check out the newer published Fate Condensed. It's still effectively "Fate Core", but the rules are presented more clear and concise than the Fate Core book, with a few default mechanical settings that might be more friendly to new players. Also, Fate Accelerated is a very streamlined simple game that works great for many types of settings. However, it doesn't really address the main criticism of the video about how it doesn't really describe how it's different than D&D. Though, I'm not entirely sure I agree with the premise that it's the responsibility of non-D&D books to describe how and why they are different than D&D. I don't know of any indie RPG that does this, and that puts what I think is an unreasonable burden on all RPG publishers other than WotC. After all, even D&D didn't really explain in their books why they make very radical system changes between some of their versions either.
A classic example from the Core book is when they're talking about creating an fantasy world. One of the characters, Zirn, in a wizard. They begin to talk about how they want magic to work in the setting, then simply decide that they want it to work more or less like any other skill. It felt hand waves rather than an exporation of the various ways that magic systems can work in Fate. My main setting is in Fate. It has an odd magic system. In it, "mages" find spirits and make deals, subjugate them, or are subjugated by them in order to bind the spirit to their souls and gain their powers. But the spirit also gains a voice in the mage's head. Mechanically, this is some stunts, a stress track for the spirit representing its power reserves, a unique set of powers, and an Aspect that gets added to the character sheet. The fun part is that if you bind more than one spirit, the next Aspect gained replaces one of those the character already has, to represent the fragmenting of the character's personality as more and more voices fill their heads. If can get kind of dark. But Fate was the only system that let me do the magic system properly. And it let me create one hell of a game.
Thank you! This is a perfect example of extending FATE to have a tailored world. Something I sorely lacked when we were playing, and which I think pretty much gave me a very negative view of the system as just the players inventing things on the fly and nitpicking what the GM said to give themselves a stackable modifier.
@@krinkrin5982 The stacking mods and nitpicking the GM descriptions...yeah I was that player. He'll I was that DM. I was just so deep into Dnd and some Savage Worlds I couldn't get out of that crunch mindset. Strangely it was Mutants and Masterminds that broke me out. The fact that they broke down all spells feats and class abilities into classes less point buy system sorta just reorganized how I saw all rpgs. I got to play FATE Dresden files after and had a much better experience. I really love your magic system and its an excellent example of the power FATE gives to narrative.
Your "odd" magic system sounds like the magic system from the Dying Earth series by Jack Vance, which lends its name to the Vancian Magic system that normal DnD uses. Spell slots are how many spirits you can cram into your head and/or how often you bargained or force that entity to do your bidding before an arbitrary rest period, at least in the beginnings of DnD. You kinda just flavoured the cleric a little differently.
Agree. Most folks would rather mod 5e rather than try a different rpg that does what they want in the first place. Part of the reason is that there are so many 5e players available.
@@DungeonMasterpiece The rhetoric people use to talk about other RPGs like Fate doesn't help either. It feels like in this video the game is being judged for not being DnD instead of being itself. The game isn't that hard to pick up.
Huh. You know what - The point about there being no simple entry for Fate Core Fantasy hits home so hard. When I was starting Fate, I just bought every obscure Fate Worlds supplement from RPG-Drivethru to find a good way to represent magic in Fate. This handwaving "The wizard does the same things with the same skills as any non-magic user, just flavored as magic" feels just wrong. Magic is included in Fantasy BECAUSE it does things that are impossible otherwise.
I initially got into FATE through the Dresden books, and am so glad I did just because of how it addresses the use/inclusion of magic, the supernatural, and fantasy races. Could easily see myself basically running games of Fiasco in FATE otherwise... just maybe with a happy ending. >.>
@@SvafaBlackhand There are different Fate games out there with examples of types of Magic systems, but it's a vague, nebulous, and fictional concept so it's hard to find something that works for everyone. I'm not sure if you are referring to the Dresden Files RPG or Dresden Files Accelerated, but I found DFA interesting from what I've seen. IIRC, it treated magic in a similar way as Atomic Robo "Invention". The most D&D like Fate product I've seen is probably Freeport Companion, but I'm not sure how I feel about it myself.
Its related to why 4e DnD failed: game designers see physical feats, magic, class abilities etc as the same. But players dont. So writing a ttrpg where a wizard is 'does attacks but with ' and a fighter is 'does attacks but with fundamentally misses what players wants. They want the fantasy, not to see behind the game design curtains at all times. This is also where open narrative games fall down: they say things like 'hey players plan your character arcs and design your mechanical feats' instead of 'think about your goals and what abilities you would like to have'. No one can take that designer speak seriously
Came across this video again after seeing it 2 years ago.... There's a difference between "do the same stuff but with magic" vs "same resolution system for combat and magic." In a narrative system, having no magic is like gunning the engine with the clutch stuck in - you didn't even engage the mechanics, because you can't do it. The guy with the bow can't zot someone with arcane bolts. Magic makes the narrative action possible, but the resolution is handled the same. The issue I think people are having is that they want magic to be mechanically differentiated since it is narratively different. But disliking that comes down to wanting a simple mechanic vs crunchy. I mean, no one is criticizing Dread for not being mechanically deep. It's either, yeah I want to play it or nah, doesn't sound like what I want. If it all feels samey, then you probably just don't actually want a unified mechanic. I am curious what games are mechanically simple while also being diverse. Maybe Blades?
I'm one of the few players who was introduced to the TTRPGs with Fate Core. It is a bizzare experience, to see so many people agree on what is norm and what is strange, while me seeing things as completely opposite.
My number 1 roleplaying pet peeve is "D&D 5e only players" who try to cram every genre under the sun into 5e. Guys, just go play Savage Worlds. It's made for that and it's very easy to learn.
To me 5th edition is a great gateway RPG or a game for what I call RPG dabblers. It's to simplified for my tastes which is also part of why I don't like Fate but I'm willing to try almost any new RPG once.
eh, I might actually say the same applies for savage worlds. its good for broadly pulpy adventures, but it might not be the best for long form minutia progression campaigns where you might want to use some varient of gurps.
@@midshipman8654 in a sense I agree with you. Savage Worlds and GURPS can both do any genre broadly. Savage Worlds excels at pulp action, while GURPS does a better job at gritty realism.
My only experience with Fate was as a player. I found I was spending so much time thinking up how to make aspects out of everything around me, the story became secondary. Like the Big Bad is monologuing big plot points and Im thinking how i can use the floral arrangement in the scene to my advantage.
This is why FATE will never be the solution for any of my RPG needs. In gamifying the parts of the TTRPG experience that are usually the purview of freeform roleplay, and by placing arbitrary restrictions on when players can interact with the narrative (or rather, force the narrative) through metacurrencies, I've never had a FATE experience that felt like I was a character inhabiting a story. It always feels to me like I'm a player at a table talking about a story I'd love to actually be playing in. It's fine if you enjoy that. I don't, nor have any patience for it.
@@mikevides4494I don't get this angle. 90% of the roleplaying that actually has some chance to change story or world elements in a TTRPG are gamified. Every D&D DM will ask you for a check in those situations; every Cyberpunk GM will ask what kind of skill your character would have that would help you in that situation; a FATE GM will ask you how you can justify that action. You're missing the forest for the trees in this regard, which seems to be a big issue with most d20 system players. You can interact with the narrative at any point in FATE, in fact you can it a lot more than in most other systems. You are not in the typical player seat other RPGs give you, you can add actual details to the story; you can create opportunities to be exploited later; you can give an indirect advantage to another player. Fate points will be there when you want and need them, and if not, you can make more with your decisions (there are so many ways to regain fate points with a competent GM). They're a powerful tool to gain an advantage, not something that limits what you can do.
@@mikevides4494can I ask what you use instead. I was recommended Fate by a friend and after reading going through the website for an hour this is my biggest fear about this system. I’d love to know what ttrpg you use to avoid this
Being fair fate was always more into the "generative" side on the table of narratives than the premade storyline classic narrative. You literally can make shit on the spot. And that is the fun thing about the game foe me, like a gm.
Spot on. My group tried FATE, and it really didn't fit great for anyone but me. We settled on Cypher system as doing the best job of offering what we most wanted in a core system. I found FATE has worked great when playing with people who are a bunch of drama nerds, experienced GMs, writers, and/or teachers. Not so much with others. The "anything you want" problem really frustrated people who needed some specifics and limitations to help guide their narrative thinking. Cypher system has turned out to be an excellent fit. It does most of the same things right that FATE does, but answers the problems you raised in this video. It is narrative-first and supports that sort of improvised narrative play. However, it is more mechanically specific and includes nods to the ideas of things like "classes", "levels", and "HP"... at least enough to ease you in until you realize they actually function totally differently from D&D. It has a stock flagship Science Fantasy setting that will be accessible and familiar to medieval fantasy players, but with it's own weird twist. It has setting specific supplements for types of games people are probably most likely to gravitate towards: Science Fiction, Super Hero, and two additional Fantasy settings.
Good point about who could really use the system to it’s full potential, that ties in with how I compare it with games like Vampire The Masquerade; which really suits larpers (advanced drama nerds).
We should note that many GURPS supplements are the gold standard for useful, detailed, well researched and well written RPG books. The majority of them can be used with any RPG system.
I am a big fan of the Dresden Files and as such, i purchased both iterations of the game (Fate and Fate Accelerated). Howerver, going through the rules I have a hard time making sense of those in a gaming environment. They are easy to read/understand but i find them hard ro apply. Your video makes so much sense to describe the confusion. I would live to hear more from you on how to play and even run (and prep) a FATE game. Cheers!
Just run the previous edition of Fate's Dresden Files RPG. It's great and arguably better than this edition anyways. Last edition of Fate had less of an identity crisis.
You make some great videos man! I'm not just saying that because you mentioned me either. I've seen your videos from some people in my communities recommendations. Keep at it man, you're making some great content!
I love me GURPS and universal systems. I feel like you missed the mark on GURPS supplements though. At least in so far as characterizing them as necessary. They mostly are the explanatory guide on how to use the core mechanics to reach a theme or emulate an ability of the stated supplement topic. A thing FATE could and should steal. GURPS supplements rarely add anything new (outside maybe a few techniques from Kung Fu or items like in all "Tech" supplements) but spend a lot of time on how to theme skills, setting tropes, build atmosphere, historical summaries, and the always amazing Appendix N style lists of inspirational material. I strongly implore a deeper reading of GURPS as the characterization of a needlessly complex dumptruck of systems misses it's true value as a TTRPG system of study and design.
BTW this is true of GURPS 4th Edition. GURPS 1-3rd Edition would regularly add new advantages, sometimes contradicting each other. This confusion and profusion prompted the creation of Fourth Edition and the current hardback genre and setting books. Also worth noting: the Fudge system, the ancestor of Fate, was a reaction to GURPS's crunchiness. The author of Fudge wanted something lighter for his "Faerie" supplement and invented his own system ... which was basically a dice mechanic with suggestions for use. Fate actually managed to be both more concrete and more adaptable than a number of other Fudge "builds".
My group found the mechanics very easy to understand and pick up. Of course we are experienced in D&D and knew full well the concepts of rpgs. As a new gm of fate, i didn't find it too difficult to learn and play or teach. The game system teaches the mechanics you need, but leave a lot of options for the GM to establish such as magic and the like. I used Fate Accelerated for an online game and the players were so lost in the story and aspects and the narrative that they didn't miss leveling up or the normal D&Disms. They still talk about the fate campaign and never really mention much about our other D&D campaigns. Story over mechanics is what it seemed to boil down to for us.
I think it's actually easier to use Accelerated when switching from D&D. Core's skill system makes it too easy to fall back in game-mechanics mode, while Accelerated simply drops all that stuff, there's just the _way_ you approach something. Lot harder to fall in mechanics mode that way.
That's very interesting for me, because I found the switch from DnD to Fate quite difficult, since it did not come natural to me to encourage players to manipulate the game after years of playing RPGs the 'regular' way.
@esenozbay I can see that, my group loved the fact that I would have them narrate the outcomes so they had some idea of control over their players scenes. In D&D you can do the same thing but the system has a more pass fail feeling to my group. They feel like Fate allowed them to really open up and have fun with what their characters were doing. But every group is different.
Ive watched Wil Wheaton's gameplay of FATE on geek and sundry's Tabletop and I still have no clue as to how it works. And i played FU . As a gm and player, is there a reason why evil hat released not one but two (correct me if im wrong) simplified versions of FATE?
I tried FATE Core once. I eventually understood the basics, but it felt so bare-bones, like being taken to an empty field and being told "GO" and noting else. It's about having so much freedom to "do whatever", that it's easy to NOT KNOW what you want to do. It's why I like the Forged In The Dark system; it has *just enough* meat on its bones to give you a nudge in the campaign/setting direction while not constricting you.
"And playing a roleplaying game is playing D&D." I don't know how we got to that point, but it's such a terrible disservice to lump all the good RPGs out there with D&D. Those poor bastards.
I only ever played a game of D&D in my life and was bored to death, as far as I'm concerned its a war game with rpg attached to it, OSR titles like lamentations of the flame princess are a different matter though...
@@paulll47 Totally depend on who your playing with and of course, the style of the D/GM.I've been bored and entralled in a multitude of games, and it always breaks down to a simple GM understanding and mechanic: Does the player always HAVE to roll to continue the story arc, or not. If they do then all player agency is robbed and the game will become stale fast. If the player only rolls when something is critical and chance enhances the play, then you have a tool for generating excitment and longevity. My 2c :D
@@justicebrewing9449 Of course the GM makes or breaks the game but I can honestly say that I've rarely been bored by a game as I was with D&D, I think its due to multiple factors ranging from clunky mechanics (I didn't know you could get clunkier than oWoD but damn D&D, you are something else) to a setting that quite honestly fails to entertain me.
As a longterm role player who never bought into spell slots, levels, classes, alignments, vancian magic and the other d&d dogmas, I've found the entry into Fate to be something else entirely... it's about how unnatural it seems to suddenly change one's fluid speech into something invoking-compelling-aspects-fate points. The sudden change from telling the story and describing the action to Fatespeak takes the players out of their immersion and into linguistic conversions.
Never had a problem with that at all. The aspects and stunts are supposed to be part of a conversation. It’s one of the 2 most RP pure systems on the market. The only one that may be more RP heavy is Powered by the Apocalypse.
@@christophermichael6844 your mileage may vary. Fate conversations don't have to be phrased in fate-speak but often are. Perhaps experienced GMs might phrase "the sofa was on fire when you laid down on it" and the players can convert that to game terms mentally but new GMs tend to "as you lie down on the sofa you find it has a fire aspect which is being invoked"
@@RockOfLions That’s…not how a GM would ever phrase that. Maybe, very maybe, you might hear this from someone who has never in their life run a game of any kind.
@@christophermichael6844 as a matter of fact I heard that line from a GM (with some credentials and experience) promoting the Fate Core system, but the immersion in Fate speak comes out in other videos where the maps are marked off in "zones" and sticky notes literally say "fire aspect" etc.
I'm one of the "haters" of Fate. I really tried to give the game system a chance, but it's just not for me or my group, but that's because the game caters to another type of gamer. I like RPG's with deep mechanical and simulationist elements while Fate is a rules lite narrative system, basically two opposite game philosophies. There was a period when rules lite narrative systems were all the rage and Fate was at the top of the list and there was a sort of elitist attitude amongst the fans of those games which soured my opinions even further.
I'm very much a simulationist GM/Player. My home system is GURPS! But I am currently running a French Resistance FATE campaign. I've been running it for about 2 years or so. And I run it simulationist. And I've got some great mechanical crunch for the players to bite into. As a simulationist, I've primarily been what could be called a "character simulationist"--in that I'm interested in exploring character and seeing how they change in response to their environment and as part of their environment. That style of simulationism is what drew me to GURPS in the first place. And I have to say, the way I run FATE? I've found it to be one of the best systems for character simulationism. I'm also pretty proud of my ability to get gamers like you (and me) to enjoy FATE...because I think it 100% can work in ways that harmonize with a simulationist philosophy. It just involves some minor tweaks...and some of those tweaks are more about the perception/interpretation/explaination of the rules rather than the rules themselves.
At first, I thought Fate was the bee's knees... but then I realized that magic is the skill that is all skills and I have yet to see a handling of it that keeps it in check while still letting it be fun. There is a system that hits a sweet spot that many people who like things about Fate but can't stand it might like... BareBones Fantasy is a d100 system that has a nice mix of generality and specificity in it. I think someone might be able to port over that magic system to Fate and make it work. There is a sweet spot between abstraction/generality and specificity/crunch. Fate errs on being way too abstract, I think. I mean... I like rolling different dice for different stuff. I think DCC RPG hits a sweet spot for a lot of people. Their Mighty Deed Die makes warriors seem like magicians of brawn and steel.
That was my issue as well. As soon as he called GURPS "dated" he might as well have said "no longer trendy". GURPS works as well as it always has. It's simply not the most popular paradigm these days. And that tells me that you're following the crowd that what's popular equals what's good.
I've actually found simulationist style games in Fate way more satisfying than in something hardcore crunchy like, for example, full-rules GURPS or Hero. Super crunchy simulationist games inevitably hit a wall (the perfect map of the territory is the territory itself, which is useless as a map). Using Aspects, et al, from Fate, I can "simulate" any number of elements and complications. Simulationist games don't need granular rules for every single possibility (and they can't). To be clear, I've been playing GURPS since the mid-80s, played a lot of Hero since then, too. I just find Fate a more elegant solution.
I'm not sure how "Simulation" can apply to fantasy/space opera/anything to which there's no actual real-world comparison. And for "Modern" gaming, there are better, more streamlined systems to use.
Comparing Fate Core’s sourcebooks to Gurps is a pretty stark contrast. Gurps sourcebooks are the absolute gold standard in this category. Books like Martial arts and Tactical shooting are master classes in how to make a sourcebook, dwarfing anything 5e has remotely put out. This being said its important to understand even Gurps fell into the DND train somewhat with the release of Dungeon fantasy in 2017 which is undeniably in response to the popularity of DnD 5e.
(Incoming long comment) I adore Fate. My journey started when I wanted to find a generic system (that was definitely not GURPS) to play with my son. I came across Strands of Fate. While I loved it and saw tremendous potential, there were some things that I didn't quite grasp, so upon learning it was based on Core, I picked up that book. As I read Core, things seemed to make more sense (though I learned later I was misunderstanding some things) but I was confused by how simple it was. I kept thinking, for example, that there should be lists of manoeuvers. How do I trip someone in combat? How do I disarm them? How do I throw sand in their eyes? It took embarrassingly long to realize that all of these actions were simply Create an Advantage. But even then, it was a bit confusing. Someone online gave me the example of invoking an advantage against someone who was "Afraid of Mice" and their explanation suggested that by spending a Fate Point to invoke, I now had a mouse in my pocket, ready for use... Moving on from there, I went to FAE, figuring that going to the "simplest" version would make it all clear, but it made things worse. Having "Sun Caller" as an Aspect means you can use fire magic? I was looking for stunts and systems to explain it all. It took me *far* too long to figure the system out, but that was because I had to unlearn every other game system first. One thing that actually helped immensely was coming across Four Coloured FAE and its writeup of the first Avengers Movie as a session of FAE. They also did a writeup of Batman: Year One as a campaign. They made things quite clear for me and I have to say that I now consider FAE to be the absolutely perfect game for superheroes. Nothing else touches it. In regards to magic, Fate can't really give a definition of how it should work simply because the point of Fate is to "adjust the dials" and make your own game. But that is why so many people get frustrated looking through a dozen books, seeing a dozen magic systems, and not liking any of them. I myself tried making my own system several times and finally just shrugged and decided to more or less do it like Zird, but that doesn't truly satisfy me. I often thought that the reason there is no good, solid, official Fate Fantasy book was a desire to distance itself from D&D. But that seems odd since so many examples in the book use a fantasy setting. As I said, I do love Fate. It is definitely one of my top 3 RPGs, but it does cause me some frustration at times.
This is something I have never even considered. I was really into the indie RPG scene in the early 2000’s, and my exposure to every kind of weird RPG system imaginable has left me entirely blind to the mindset you describe here. I suspect the authors of FATE came from a similiar place.
I hate to say this, but this is because a lot of indie developers had their heads up their asses smelling their own farts and thinking it perfume. There was a LOT of "we're just BETTER than you" snobbery in the Indie RPG scene, typified by The Forge forums. I mean, Ron Edwards liked to describe people who liked what D&D was doing as "brain-damaged." The intended audience of games like FATE Core is not players new to the hobby, which is why this whole mindset described exists.
@@Stray7 I mean, you’re not wrong. There was definitely an air of superiority over the tone of some of the people in The Forge movement. The community I was a part of at the time, the Norwegian indie RPG scene, was very different both in tone of discussion and in the games we produced. I consumed a lot of Forge games, but I was never a part of the community.
@@Stray7 I wouldn't necessarily assume snobbery. I don't know how plugged into it you are, but several of the designers of Fate ALSO play D&D still. I think they would agree that D&D is a better system for a D&D style game. On the other hand, the more different a game is from a D&D style of game, the more awkward to hack it. That said, I don't doubt that you've encountered some toxic RPG fan experiences though. Gatekeeping can be unfortunately common in just about any fandom including D&D, where I've seen some people being VERY nasty about Fate, even going so far as to claim it's not really a "game". One funny thing I've noticed among a lot of Fate players is that many of them actually liked 4E D&D more most other D&D players did. For myself, there were elements in 4E that made me more receptive to Fate, such as emphasizing cinematic combat, using improv techniques, giving more room for player agency and narrative input, more hackability, and starting characters as already being a little more heroic.
Suddenly, after watching this, I feel a lot better about my inability to wrap my head around Fate Core. I have both GURPS and Fate Core, and if I was told to run a game or character in one of those, I'd probably pick GURPS. For all of the crunch, it does a pretty decent job of at least explaining how the system works
As an older player used to crunchy games? I had given up on narrative games till I got to Cortex Heroic (now Cortex prime). It's still not the best fit for me compared to HERO but it makes sense to me. Trying to go through Fate gave me headaches. I think the big problem a game's advocates can have is assuming everyone thinks the same. Or want the same things in play. The sooner we can understand what someone else is wanting the sooner we can figure out if our system of choice is a file for for them or not. Too often we assume our game is objectively better rather than recognizing personal tastes matter MORE.
I had to laugh at GURPS being called dated. Yeah, it doesn't look like modern RPGs because no one did what GURPS do best, better. Which is a set of tools to make your own home brew system. I play with my one home brewed system and although very different from GURPS, it has always been a source of inspiration. GURPS was and still is the best generic RPG system out there. For poor kids like me, who didn't have a lot of money, buying a couple of supplements I could run a diverse set of games. Sure, if you have unlimited money, you can have a shelf fool of RPG books and professionally designed games, but that is not the reality of a lot of RPG hobbyists around the world.
@@DungeonMasterpiece any updates on that? I love the look of this system but learning it as a complete beginner has proven tough due to my lack of experience. I want to get other players excited and prepared to play this, but I'm not sure how
Great video, as someone who's run a lot of Fate I thought you made some very interesting points. I used to really be into Fate and did a fair amount of videos on it, although TBH I mostly run and play OSR retroclones nowadays.
I've been working on my own TTRPG system for a while now that shares a lot of similarities with FATE (and also some of its pitfalls). This video will be helpful for my 17th rewrite.
As someone who owns several Fate books (including one of the oft-cited good examples of how to play, Atomic Robo) but has bounced off them enough times to be afraid to bring to my group, this really resonates. Telling folks to read other supplements, Book of Hanz, etc. is not a great path to understanding. That said, I'd love to hear a bit more depth about what you think could help draw people in, especially folks coming from D&D, etc. I love that there are 50 page forum posts trying to explain Fate, but that's not digestible to a gaming group unfortunately :(
The Dresden Files RPG, which runs on Fate, did a pretty good job of explaining why the mechanics work IMO. More to the point, my current favourite system (generic or not) is actually Chaosium's HeroQuest 2e. Every strength of Fate is improved upon, and despite (or more often because of) often outright reversing standard RPG assumptions. And just as importantly, the book is very careful and explicit in its explanations of why every mechanic exists, how they each fit into the broader context of the system, and how to actually use them effectively in play in various situations. It's so different from the industry norm that despite all that it's admittedly tricky to wrap your head around, but damn if it isn't the best narratively-focused system I've ever seen.
I've played FATE core, and I appreciate it's narrative driven mechanics, but I vastly prefer PbtA games. Granted, PbtA isn't a single role playing game, but more like an engine upon which many games have been built. But FATE requires the GM and the players to do so much of the heavy lifting in making their game play they way they want it to. PbtA games do all that heavy lifting for you. I would love to see a video you did on PbtA.
Agreed! I think both systems (or types of systems) aim for something similar (focus on narrative and cut down on mechanical crunch), and I admire what Fate does, but after I got introduced to pbtA I am quite spoiled by it's elegance and it's simplicity in getting started with it as a player. Fate is great and fast but needs quite a bit of skill as a GM and as a player. PbtA needs a good GM, yes, but it focuses on player decisions (who can rely on some simple yet cool actions). Now I want to make a D&D campaign with PbtA mechanics lol
DAMN, I love your analysis about how people can't leave D&D just for a while. My local commnity is filled with people that either tries to hack 5e into something else or when actually playing something else fall into D&D's style of game, yet when they are presented with newer games they just reject it like it is some sort of disesase, sometimes even been hostile towards the person showing something else, like, I even recall being called a f*cking hipster that only wants to play games no one cares about because I've always said that I enjoyed Dungeon World more, thankfully it was a looooooooong time ago and things are looking better, but this unbound loyalty to D&D and its tropes still lingers.
You need to have a storyteller that wants you to be part of the story. The key phrases and abilities you'd build into the PC gets ignored and you just need to follow along. I've not had a good experience. These aspects were never used, it's lame and you feel uninvolved. I'd give it a shot again, but walk away if there isn't collaboration.
As someone who has taught dozens of people this game, you're absolutely right that getting into it is the hardest part. I love the game, but I had to spend months in the online community before I understood it and I can't reliably share that understanding with new players fast enough to keep them from giving up after a few confusing sessions. The Book of Hanz does a great job of breaking it down, but you have to really wanna learn to dig that far into a new game. I was worried about how I'd feel about this video, but I really appreciate your fair but firm critique.
Yep. Aspects are everything. And Aspect wording is king. Taking the "classes, levels and spells" from 5e and shoving them into another system is exactly how Dungeon World felt to me. But I think the plan was to do what Fate has not, in order to introduce new players. I'm so glad I tried other PbtA games, before I gave up on the system.
The only one I've really tinkered with is DW. Which do you recommend I read as a literary exercise? (I prolly won't play it, so it can be off the wall. Also, moftw prolly won't interest me hahha)
Dungeon World feels like the least PBTA of PBTA games. I hacked my own system where HP and damage rolls are present, but feel more like a condition-based Game (like Masks) where losing ,4-5 HP can result in a condition
A very interesting video! It's definitely paramount for RPG developers to explain their system assumptions and put the players in the right state of mind when approaching the game.
I feel like this video misses a lot of context. When Fate Core came out, some of the more popular versions of Fate were generic fantasy (Legends of Anglerre) and bog-standard science fiction (Starblazer Adventures). Those books exist, the lack of a book about it is not what is stopping Fate from taking off.
Also DnD is only ubiquitous in America, and even then that isn't because DnD itself was popular. My theory is it became specifically ubiquitous after all of the podcasts and twitch personalities started using the system. When I first got into rpgs, most of the circles I knew of only played warhammer or battle tech. And they played mostly everything other than DnD. This was when I was playing in 3 different states as well.
@@ramblers2971 DnD has been ubiquitous in the US long before podcasts and Twitch ever existed. It was the second RPG system ever made (at least, one descended from table top war games).
@@ramblers2971 if you started gaming in the era of Warhammer and Battletech, you don't remember the days when D&D was (pretty much literally) the only game in town. Without its success, popularity and ubiquity, tabletop gaming really wouldn't exist.
Wow, you never fail to make me think, I mean really think about rpg's. I can't take it anymore, where are your live play sessions that will help me understand this? I have always wanted to play Fate however, I just don't understand how it works. Thank you for your work in helping me to expand my understanding and thinking of rpg's and other games.
I feel Fate was way too "simple" for my taste. but you do you, I found Dungeon World and that game engine is to me what I wanted from Fate when I read about it being rules-light.
Can't knock PbtA games, it's a solid system, it's fun, and there's enough DNA in common with Fate-type games that it's accessible without too much more crunch. I'm partial to Scum & Villainy or Starforged, myself.
I'll still take GURPS any day. I like the crunch, and still having the ability to do anything I want to. If we want hand wavey game mechanics like Fate, Cortex Prime is the way to go.
Taking players used to crunch and getting them to understand that their fiction us what drives the narrative, and that they need to create good fiction to have powerful effects is so difficult, but so worth it. I NEVER give a new player the rule book, because if they read it they will certainly not understand it. I just walk them through making a character and creating aspects, then assign skills, and then we start playing and I explain to them some of the things they might do along the way. Generally they can get up to speed within one session, but true mastery tales several sessions. Fate, for as much as it is so much lighter on rules, has a much steeper learning curve than many systems because the crunch players relied upon to tell them what they are allowed to do is entirely absent.
I definitely agree Fate lacks a broad starting point for beginners to get into the system. My biggest successes with the Fate System were running games set in Star Wars using an online fan supplement.
Burning Wheel has the exact same issue. It turns it's narrative structure and character stories into mechanics first and foremost, and it leaves people used to narrative games confused because there's a lot of rules, and "gameists" confused because they're mostly expecting rules for how characters mechanically do things. The thing about people hacking 5e is that on some level, it's writers seem to expect people to hack it. If you just take every system in the PHB and actually use it as-written, *including* stuff like exhaustion from not getting food, marching orders, trying to figure out how much can fit in a container... 5e is super weird if you do that. It's almost like the designers *know* it's weird and just made a "figure out what to do with this" kinda system. The DMG effectively says "if you don't like something just chuck it", like no system is particularly reliant on any other. Personally, the end result is that I have no idea what 5e is trying to be at it's core. I still think it's obnoxious that more people don't realize they can just look elsewhere for a ruleset that fits what they want better, but the hacks are sort of encouraged. And then there's the D&D purists who insist that a lot of smaller systems are trying to "kill RPGs" somehow.
I gave you a little hint what is try it to be and always want to be. They want to be gurps but harder, like making you buy a manual to every problem or void. Want a counterexample of that? Fantasycraft, is a very bloated book, VERY focused like a toolbox like for every type of fantasy game you can think. Also this mindset let them design some...risky things into the core and make it surprisingly work...like being a drake like a base race. Not dragonborn, not kobold,.not humanoid, full wing, breath weapon drake.
This video is so well explained it managed to put me back in the shoes of the kid I was discovering D&D3.0 a long time ago, I exposed myself to so many other system so quickly after this first encounter that I tend to forget that for a short time RPG and the D20 system where synonimous to me.
Well, I come from non-DnD playing background and must say it was never a problem to pick up and understand Fate. Maybe it's a problem with DnD-only players, because due to how DnD works it cripples understanding of various other RPG concepts. Try to pull of Apocalypse World or Blades in the Dark for 5e players. Or even some OSR system - when you don't have "game console" of a character sheet. The problem with Fate is not only different tools to play but also mindset. Fate Point economy requires you to put your character in trouble or in danger. It's not only more meta than DnD, it also introduces meta thinking of a character - you're interested in the story emerging from problems and not "me against the world" narrative.
It isn't just DnD "crippling" peoples' understanding, it is that FATE uses a different conceit compared to virtually every RPG (and board/video game) out there. In every other game I've played, the player is supposed to inhabit their character, and make decisions and take actions in a simulated world in order to try and achieve that character's goals (within the limits of the character's personality). FATE is radically different, in that the player isn't inhabiting their character, they are more of an author/actor who is writing/portraying their character. In FATE, you don't so much inhabit a character and choose their actions, as you lead your character through a world, choosing to create and use story details (both of the character and the rest of the game world) to resolve conflicts. In my experience, gamers of almost every stripe struggle when presented with FATE rules systems, while creatives (theatre kids, aspiring authors, etc.) are the ones who can pick it up easily. This is especially egregious, because the rule book never explicitly acknowledges that it functions in a fundamentally different way from any previous game the prospective player may be familiar with, be it Skyrim, DnD, Vampire the Masquerade, or even Monopoly. And since FATE looks superficially similar to most other TTRPGs (you have a character sheet with skills and abilities, a GM to describe the world, etc.), it is very easy for a player to go in with the standard gaming mindset and get frustrated.
Great video on this. I have a number if these books and have ran the system a couple of times always to the same effect. The players get one or two sessions in and we move to a different game. All of the fate worlds seemed extremely niche, creating a generic system and then immediately putting a massive restriction on it. Instead of helping the players and GM realize a big standard; fantasy, sci-fi, or horror game. You are immediately encouraged to do some esoteric or extremely limited setting. I concur with your statements across the board. Saying they created a great system, just missed the mark in selling the product to the masses.
I agree completely. If it hadn't been for the truly wonderful GM I had, and the amazingly well-written Dresden Files RPG game, I never would've gotten into Fate.
The original DFRPG...it had its good points, but it wasn't well edited and somewhat vulnerable to power-gaming; too much flavor text and not enough examples made it slow going for my group. I was coming up with house rules to fix that until I found Dresden Accelerated. Running it for three years now.
My big problem with DFRPG was it was a great variant of FATE, but I wasn't deep into the lore. I saw the Dresden TV show, but I'd never read the books. Plus the plots are very "on rails". I kept trying to find the thread I was supposed to pull to figure out the mystery or advance the plot and some of it is locked out of the characters' control.
This sounds like a really promising. I have played a similar system before which could explain this thesis in under one DinA4 page. I would love to see more fate content if you would be willing to do more!
I was lucky enough to start on the ground floor with Fate, both 2nd Edition (which handled Aspects very differently) and _Spirit of the Century_ , which was the prototype for the current edition of Fate. SotC both explained why and how Fate was supposed to work and gave a concrete setting of 1920s pulp action. Maybe it was the GM we had at the time, but some of our players came from a D&D background (AFAIK) yet had no problems with creating and playing SotC characters.
Ive tried running Fate and playing the Dresden Files. I love the idea of Aspects and invoking them but struggled to actually play them. And getting my players invested for more than a few sessions was difficult also. I could never quite put my finger on it. It was far from being overly crunchy and dense but the connection between narrative and mechanics was exactly what explained why it didn't click. Playing dnd 3e (not even ADnD and I feel old) for the first time I had similar feelings. This dense book with new concepts and so many rules. But my friend just explained "You want to do X? Roll this 1d20 add bonuses and beat this number." Click! I still remember that moment because this was my first experience with any boardgame more complex than monopoly. FATE needs something like this to explain thier core mechanic. That being said character creation in FATE is prolly my favorite part and ive stolen aspects (hehe) from it and use it whenever I run 5e for players. Having players form some kind of connection between 2 or more players makes for great party backstory and motivation to stick together after barely surviving an umber hulk ambush.
I don't really think that Fate is so much unintuitive as much as it has a very different mental model and D&D veterans have trouble adjusting their mental model. They bring in a lot of experience and assumptions without even realizing it. They look at Fate and they try to figure out how to translate D&D mechanical idioms into Fate. When there's not an exact 1:1 equivalent, or the equivalents have a lot more nuance to them, D&D veterans get a bit frustrated and confused. Though the funny thing is, when you have completely new players to Fate that have never played D&D, they generally don't nearly as much trouble. To get Fate, you kind of have to turn off your D&D knowledge and start over.
Great vid, perfectly encapsulates my frustration with learning how to "DM" the game, and yet I leave this video with +1 frustrations: you did not explain any of it either!! 🤣Seriously though, this would have been a great kickoff to a series, or even provide some links with answers to the questions you pose.
Guess the algorithm finally decided this might interest me. Great video! So many points that sort of swirled in my head but I hadn't really been able to articulate. Always wondered why I couldn't quite sell my friends on FATE - I had never really thought of it in terms of self marketing for audience, but yeah, totally hit the nail on the head. I'd be able to sell it better if they could sell it better themselves....
Very thoughtful video. I've run primarily FateCore over the past couple years, for two different groups, and I've improved substantially at teaching the system. However, I never nailed down that core idea you stated in this video that Fate rewards the creation of narrative. Well done!
bristle at your description of GURPS as “dated”. This is mainly due to the implication that the “modern” approaches to RPG design are necessarily *better*. To be frank, I find FATE’s foundational mechanic of Aspect-invocation for Narrative manipulation to detract from its ability to serve as a *Roleplaying* game. Characters don’t see their worlds in terms of Aspects to be invoked, so any decision to invoke them is done on a meta-game level that divorces the player from the perspective of their character, thereby working against the very thing I hope to achieve in playing an RPG. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with its existence as an option, although I can’t deny wishing that FATE and games taking a similar view of the role of narrative would label themselves as something other than an RPG.
I think D&D is more of a game that models drama and fiction more than it tries to model any kind of verisimilitude. If you watch a movie, it often doesn't matter whether one dude has a piercing weapon or a bludgeoning weapon (or even a weapon at all), unless there's some special thing in the story like he wields the sword Exmagical or something. And Fate incorporates a bit more of player as co-writer or director, not just actor, so Meta isn't as taboo (and actually can be encouraged). It's just a different style. Not everyone is used to that style, and some even find it so different that it can be mentally jarring. However, it can be a different flavor of fun experience too.
GURPS is so wrapped up in enumerating every single aspect of play, that it loses sight of what a RPG should be. You have to analyze all the math to see what a character/vehicle/world etc is all about. Some people may like it, but I can't see how it can provide a character-based perspective.
I'm reminded of learning to play Scion 2.0 - 'Conditions' function very much similarly Aspects in Fate, where they can be 'called' to some benefit or effect, or even to accept some dramatic penalty to give narrative momentum to the group. But our group of players was a bunch of D&D/Pathfinder people, and the idea that even something as simple as 'getting hit' didn't so much mean losing health levels as much as it meant 'gaining an injury condition' which could be used in similar ways, was absolutely foreign to the group, and took a lot of getting used to. Many of the systems seem to take inspiration from Fate-like Aspects where they are narrative elements that are invoked or called upon in different ways for various benefits - when I noticed this early on, I was like "This, this is how things work in this game. Create conditions, call on then for benefits, be epic-story-narrative-awesome." My character had a power from her pantheon that let her create a Title for someone and invoke it for enhancements or complications primarily to social rolls, but also to some mundane tasks, and a couple of the D&D-arrivals thought it was broken as heck because it seemed like I could do so much with it... and I was like "This is how this system works, this is just one way to do that sort of thing." The way improvement is related to accomplishing or progressing on (or failing at) Deeds and Goals was another big one - the more you understand what your character, and the group as a whole, wants to accomplish narratively, the better the group will be at not only doing it, but getting XP from it. The system does an okayish job at explaining this weirdness, I feel, but it also has that lack of self-awareness of how weird these narrative-mechanics are, so it doesn't give them quite as much clear explanation as might be needed. Fate, though? It made my head hurt the first time I tried to get into it... I couldn't understand how to get things done in any reasonable way just from the descriptions, until I was fiddling with some Dresden Files game stuff and it suddenly sort of 'clicked' while I was looking over their magic system, which (naturally, like everything else) focuses on applying specific kinds of Aspects to people and situations and areas and such, and gives a little more structure to how much effect those can have.
Wow this video is a week old and i'm finding it now? Awesome! I'm trying to learn the game but there's not a lot of Fate content on the internet. I like your opinion on the system and as far as i know, i agree with everything. I hope you'll make other Fate content, thanks a lot! :)
cant be sure but the text blurb snuck in at 7:55 is "INT is their dump stat", referencing how he's talking about how D&D fighters are spoiled by the system. do with that what you will
The thing I've always said about FATE, is that it's what actual DnD fans want to play. Most people I know don't like combat in DnD and want to just tell a cool story, whcih is what FATE is perfect for.
I disagree that dungeon coach (in particular) is trying to make dnd 5e something it isn’t. I homebrew extremely similar to him. It’s about using 5e as what it is but better. Keeping he theme/feeling and core gameplay but adding in a few homebrew or ironing out a few specific rules that could be much better. It’s about keeping it heroic high fantasy with potential for horror; levels and spells and spell levels and classes, etc BUT seeing issues or a lack of clarity/specificity in particular areas that were left to vague or ‘up to the DM/GM’. I love heroic high fantasy and all the core aspects that make dnd what it is! But for example the crafting system is unusable in 5e it’s ridiculous and slower than real world crafters! I love 5e but (for example) added in homebrew for falling object damage (based in the size and wt. of the object and the distance it falls) how is that ‘seeking another system’ it’s not. I’m adding homebrew IN for things left vague/unfinished (up to the DM) and/or fixing 5e rules that are bad (like the crafting as is) Likewise finding systems to quickly craft custom monsters or alter a monsters stat block to make them more challenging is NOT me seeking a different system but more optimally using the current system. Understanding it best. So I think you misread some peoples issues and goals. The dungeon coach has never seemed to be looking for a tostada non dnd experience to me just optimizing and improving 5e! I’m also working on a 5e compatible third party book. It’s meant to improve, compliment and add to dnd 5e NOT turn it into another system/game. I’m adding lore, adventures, homebrew rules, a whole bestiary, new spells, magic items and many d% and other random dice charts. To add to the game/compliment and give options for rules that feel (off or unfinished) alternate rules. For specific issues. Not to change the whole game! Ok rant over. Sorry for the rant I just feel there are those who should look into other systems/TTRPGs and those who just want to add/tweak. If I want another game I’ll get/play it or as I’m the type make it myself. Actually I am working on two other custom TTRPGs…. It sounds like Fate might be good if presented better, sounds like a massive headache to understand the way it’s presented now. Good video overall, thanks. I’m leaving my rant as it’s honestly how I feel but please don’t think I’m to upset or anything I just wanted to explain.
Interesting. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'd holy disagree with you. And please note that my videos are also in some ways a bit rhetorical. That being said, the dungeon coach shared this video in his discord and agreed with it.... 🤣
@@DungeonMasterpiece Well I suppose I can only speak for myself then... Still you have many great points in the video and I learned a lot about Fate (which I didn't know almost anything about before). I still stand by what I said there is a distinction between improving D&D and using another 'more appropriate' TTRPG system to the style/world or gameplay you'd prefer. I feel like smoothing out rough edges in a rule system, adding rules that were lacking and adding to a game is different to needing an entirely different game system to express a world that is not a normal D&D style world. I feel like I have homebrewed rules to Every game I've played to smooth out rough edges or fill in gaps. Its just adding to the game and customizing it, that's all. One of the two TTRPGS I'm currently working on is more directly D&D inspired and uses most of the core concepts but is different enough (in far too many ways) so that it HAS to be its own thing and not a super detailed homebrew mod to 3.5 or 5e, etc. The other is very different and is far more of a worldbuilding game.
Oof, you're right ... I just turned around to look at my FATE collection and I see ... System Toolkit, Horror Toolkit, Space Toolkit ... and no Fantasy Toolkit? Checked online and one does not even exist. I do have the Freeport Companion, but that is setting specific as opposed to a tool for GMs to build their own fantasy worlds and systems. Weird that they flat out avoided making a toolkit for, BY FAR, the most popular RPG genre. Way to be different, Evil Hat, I guess.
Yeah, I still don't get it... I invoke fallen bookcase and what happens? Who rolls? Rolls what? Against what? What's going on??? I got into call of cthulhu immediately, d&d5e no problem, Dark Heresy easy, anything from world of darkness also easy. Fate? I'm completely lost and confused. If I have to spend and absurd amount of time doing research about the rules that should be explained in the core book then it's really not worth it. Make it compelling so people will actually want to get into it and not be blocked right from the start.
Exactly. It's a very loosey goosey system with terrible explanations that I was only able to figure out after trying to play it for 3 months. And I'm seldom the dumbest person in the room.
@@DungeonMasterpiece There we see the problem. Most players do not want to learn a new system, because they don't find learning a new system fun. DnD is like English in a way, a lingua franca that is consistent and stable. Sure, each edition or homebrew might be a different dialect, but at the core of the system it's a shared language on how things work.
@@f14uubercat the system learning thing isn't as big a problem as you'd expect. Nobody complains when learning traveler, savage worlds, or call of Cthulhu, which are starkly different from dnd
I've honestly found Fate Accelerated to have been more influential to my gaming than Fate Core, mainly because of Approaches. Also, talking about "creating aspects" and "invoking aspects" is so freakin' jargony! Creating an aspect is just interacting with something in your environment to your advantage, so just talk about interacting with the environment instead of "creating and invoking aspects."
I have been running and playing Fate for 10 years. "Like D&D" is a thing I hear all the time. I also see regularly the pressure to turn it into a version of D&D. You have good points, and I wonder if a good Fantasy clone wouldn't be useful. The issue is as a Fate GM aspects and the tools provided make it quite easy to run that game without yet another world book to purchase. I keep playing and running Fate in large part due to it's narrative strength, Toolkit nature, and flexibility. I don't know if a D&D type world book would sell, however with the licencing being the way it is it would not be a major issue for a publisher to attempt.
I'm sure you know the Freeport Companion is a fine semi-conversion that feels more like D&D/Pathfinder, but I've found that trying to ease d20 players into Fate by making it more like D&D tends to make the experience more frustrating. It doesn't address the necessary shift in perspective that makes Fate a great system, so it winds up highlighting situations that feel familiar but can't be addressed in familiar ways.
I love the concepts behind the mechanics but they're just to spindly and clumsy to appeal to me. I really require more crunch to be satisfied with how I'm defined in the game. But I also know a lot of gamers who love that narrative flow in their games and they try to get it awkwardly in games much to heavy for their preference.
I've played Fate for quite a while and I generaly liked the system, but it've become a real masterpiece when I played with dedicated world called Stronghold: Song of heroes (that's my translation, i don't think it was ever published in english; it is originally called in polish Twierdza: Pieśń Bohaterów). The addition of lore-building book (about 350 5A-size pages) which clarifies what your character can or can't do and spares a lot of time, which would be wasted on meaningless arguments about rules while playing Fate, plus in general, world created in Twierdza: Pieśń Bohaterów is pretty fun and consistent.
Fatecore has the same issues as a lot of non-dnd systems. Any Fate character feels like they are 90% defined at the first level, which means it is hard for characters to grow and change through a large campaign. The leveling system makes it hard to numerically differentiate different kinds of creatures, which makes encounters feel way too apple-to-apple. In fact the entire system is designed to produce characters with similar numerical distributions regardless of player intent, which mitigates player specialization/diversity. Additionally, the advantage system creates a situation where battles can be planned and executed in a very deterministic manner, which mitigates the potential chaos of the story.
You can have that opinion. Though I think that D&D lacks in the ability to develop specific character concepts because there's so little variety at level 1 and everyone has to mechanically level up and gradually shift themselves to being mechanically more like the character type they envisioned in the first place. That's actually what drew me away from D&D into Fate, is I kept having character concepts in D&D that just didn't work in the class system. (I found 4E actually more friendly than 3rd or 5th in that regard). Fate characters are encouraged to change, but the change is narratively (and their Aspects), not strictly becoming more powerful (which they can do as well). Now, it is easy for a GM to have a bunch of enemies that feel basically the same, except maybe some different Aspects. I would say that the Adversary Toolkit helps a LOT with better guidance on making enemies seem more varied. I'm not sure I understand the criticism of similar numerical distribution. Doesn't point-buy in D&D act in a very similar way (and most D&D games I've played in the last 20 years have used point-buy). Diversity isn't just their stats, but their Aspects and Stunts. It's possible to have 2 characters that are very similar mechanically but very different narratively, or 2 characters very similar narratively but different mechanically.
@@groovydecoy366 I am very used to DND 3.5e where there was much more mechanical differentiation between builds, especially as characters got into the higher levels. Also, I am very not used to point buy, it has a very strong normalizing effect on stats that i don't enjoy. The issue i have with the standardized stat array is that it makes most of the characters feel like different "genres" of the same build rather than entirely distinct entities. For example, in dnd 3.5e your average mage will invest all of their resources in pushing their casting stat as high as possible and will give very little attention to equipment or other stats, whereas a monk will need a bunch of stats to fully take advantage of their build, but basically no equipment, and a rogue will often end up having a bag of tricky items to facilitate their core strategy. The aspects determine the flavor of the numbers, but the numbers beneath them largely remain the same. As for your first point, I think that is something that will depend from person to person, but I feel like if i want to have a fully created character when I start an DND campaign, i should just start at a higher level. What i like about DND is the idea of having a character who starts out very blank and is largely defined by their experiences in the campaign. I think that makes campaigns more immersive and gives the characters a sense of history that is lacking in other systems that lay out their characters immediately. Anyways, thanks for the detailed response, I love thinking about RPG systems and what makes people like or dislike them.
I still don't know why I should play FATE from this though. You mention that a bunch of DMs are frustrated with 5e and position this as the solution but I have no idea if they're frustrated with the same things I'm frustrated with, nor how FATE can help. I can knock over a bookshelf in 5e too.
You can get what you want from third party support. For a D&D-style fate experience, try out Aperita Arcana. I think that some Fate enthusiasts might say that someone who uses it "doesn't get it" in terms of what makes Fate "Fate-y," but it's a good place to start, I think. Before Fate was Fate it was Fudge. And a really interesting take on epic fantasy using Fudge is Legends of Anglerre... which may still be in print...? Also, also, the system used by Bethesda is based on a BRP d100 or RQ6/Mythras system. If you have not checked out Mythras, you really should. You might dig it.
Wow, absolutely stellar video!! I was watching this bad boy fully blown away by your script and polish. i didn't see your subscriber count earlier, but im SHOCKED to see you barely with only a thousand. For the effort you put into this video alone, you're criminally underated.
Thank you for the kind words! Many TH-camrs around me have been very encouraging. They all say things like, "you just haven't blown up yet." So I'll keep pushing on!
I've would consider myself to be adept with FATE, I've been playing it since around 2010 and it is probably on of the best most versatile systems out there. But I totally agree that the language that the books use is often very vague and unhelpful when it comes to understand how to direct the players or even how to be a GM in the system. I got so frustrated with the system that I started playing a lot of Powered by the Apocalypse games, and that system really paints just how much FATE has fallen behind in the narrative driven universal RPG market. Which sucks because I love FATE to death, I love how when it's played well it can both mechanically and organically bring out some of the best story telling that you'll ever hear in a game. It's just such a shame to see people constantly beating at the wall that is D&D to tell stories that aren't driven by that old War Game wheel. I'm here for better FATE PR, I want EvilHat to really up the notch on bringing new players into the system because all those games that people want to play by hacking D&D could be done SO MUCH better in FATE.
A little more than a month ago i participated in a 5 session arc of the Dresden Files(using the old "fate System" not Dresden accelerated) and it was awesome, much more cinematic than the few others system I've played, I was very pro this guy running "Dresden files " because he has run it in the past and is familiar with Fate and the Dresden lore/books, but mainly because I saw this very video months before and it made me curious, thanks for the content Baron
@@DungeonMasterpiece me too, man, me too. And truthfully i will say after rewatching this video I think I agree with "fate" system is what many are looking for when "they" feel like d&d/5e needs to be hacked for more cinematic play/ is missing something
Truth be told, in 5th edition D&D Int is THE dump stat for everyone but a wizard. There is very little mechanical advantage of having high Int. This is in stark contrast to 3rd, where Int was one of the more important stats. My biggest gripe with Fate is that I could never get to grips with how the game both wants you to invent things on the fly (We are in a lab, so I'm going to throw the wizard's own potions at him, these thugs had been recently in a gang war with our employer, so I use that to intimidate them) and at the same time mechanically reduces that creativity to simply granting you a +2 bonus to a die roll. Which means that all I am doing is thinking up new excuses to grant myself that stackable bonus. Fate also lacks any way other than these aspects to mechanically flavor your world. In Warhammer magic is finicky and extremely dangerous to the user, and the rules for spellcasting reinforce that. Even the best archmage is just one mishap away from getting eaten by demons. In World of Darkness, in simplest terms, you need to constantly manage interlinked resources (one of which is directly responsible for the character's power), and if you ever go too much in either direction the game will end for you. Something like this, that is to say a mechanic strongly reinforcing the narrative, is pretty much impossible to replicate in Fate. Its sandbox nature is working against it here. Perhaps I am wrong there, as I haven't played the system much (and only in the Fate Accelerated version at that). I would be more than happy for a Fate primer when you decide to make it eventually.
I've heard your biggest gripe from others too, but it's not something that bothers me. I actually like that there a generalized universal mechanics for creating bonuses if simply for no other reason as it helps move the game along faster rather than having people trying to figure out the most optimal advantage (Aspect) and having additional subsystems to address certain kinds of mechanical advantages. That said, there are optional rules in the Toolkit address this very subject called "Scaled Invocations" which distinguishes between "Tenuous invocations", "Relevant invocations", and "Perfect invocations". You can have a look in the SRD: fate-srd.com/fate-system-toolkit/aspects#scaled-invocation It's a rule that I've considered using myself. I'm a little curious what you think.
It's a narrative game. Not mechanics heavy. It's one of the best yes and systems. If you want stacking bonus and large number look to another system. The issue most people have with fate is they try to play it like dnd. It's a completely different way of playing. It's comparing apple to oranges. Yes they are both fruit but the similarities end there.
@@groovydecoy366 The scaled invocation sounds pretty good to me and addresses the gripe I had. The re-roll/add/set system will need to be checked in multiple plays, but so far I like it.
(I haven't watched the full video yet so don't mind me, if I'm saying something weird) I'm leading a campaign that sets in a magical wild west setting. And the problem I'm facing is, that it doesn't seem that my players really understand how magic works in that world. I wanted them to-if they wanted to use magic-to choose a type of magic and put it down as a stunt. I'm not using FATE points for my games and use other things to limit the use of the magic. Usually it works like this: they tell me what they want to do and then I give them a skill they have to roll and that determines how well it went. Mostly the characters take one psychological stress after using magic. Or they only have a limited amount of "spell slots" per day depending on the thing. For example one character had a magic gun that could hit all enemies standing in a row with full damage and enemies next to them for half damage but it over heats when he uses it. I try to give a logical explanation for the stunts and magic why it just doesn't work all the time. Flying characters take physical stress depending on the time they're flying and the maneuvers they do because flying exhausts them. I love FATE for it's flexibility but as a GM you need to make so many rules up yourself and balance everything out. Don't get me started on how my weapon mechanics work. I have a giant sheet with stats for all kinds of weapons and somehow we manage to still add to the list and me having to make up new stats on the go and balance them out later.
This video covers one of the things that infuriates me about people "explaining" the failings of Fate Core. Fate Core cannot compete with D&D. If you want a D&D like game, play D&D. I think that's why Fate Core supplements don't cover western medieval fantasy. Just play D&D. It would be like selling Toyotas by constantly showing how much they can be like Fords. People are going to think Toyotas are inferior to Fords and wonder why they just don't buy a Ford instead. Don't get me wrong. Fate Core does have weaknesses. Want to create a character in D&D? Pick a class. Roll or buy appropriate stats. Roll HPs and gold. Write down your first level abilities. Done. It's a no-brainer. Want to create a Fate Core character? Find a high concept. What can it be? Anything. If I can't use stats as a crutch to define my character, what do I use? Aspects. Great, what can they be? Anything. OK, I get to chose skills, maybe better than just being handed stuff like D&D, but the skill list is a little sparse. Oh, the gm can add skills? Great, like what? Anything. How about my special abilities? OK, they are called stunts. Cool. What can they be? Anything. And there's "extras," things not covered by other rules... maybe a sword or a vehicle? What can they be? Anything. Are we seeing the problem yet? One of Fate Core's greatest strengths is also it's greatest weakness. It is a VERY flexible system. So many things aren't and can't be defined by the rules without losing that flexibility. The biggest character generation problem for my players is stunts. No matter how I explain them and give examples, they would rather pick from the 20 page list I made using almost every Fate Core book out there than try to create their own. And my biggest challenge as a player/gm? It was unlearning nearly 50 years of D&D. It took me nearly a year to get comfortable with the Fate Core mechanics, but now that I am, it's great. Currently, I'm playing in a pulp era game set in the days of the Great Depression. My character is the Howard Hughes of zeppelins. He wants to show up Doc Savage and reveal him as a charlatan. His zeppelin has been electrified by none other than Nikola Tesla, whom he calls "friend." His companions are a femme fatale mobster's daughter along with a pugilist wanted for killing a man in the ring. I can't imagine a better role-playing system for our game. 😀
I know it's been a while since you uploaded this video but I wanted to let you know that this inspired me to dust off my FATE books and do a FATE Condensed hack (Dungeons Of FATE Condensed) for the FATE Accelerated hack (Dungeons Of FATE) for D&D.
I can credit Will Wheaton's Tabletop episode for my interest in Fate. Seeing it played went a long way towards making it "click" for me. It's a shame there's not more AP content out there for it because seeing it happening, it's rather intuitive, but reading about it, less so.
I don't think I've ever seen a RPG book go about explaining itself as "this is how D&D does it, we're doing this instead", games like Star Wars d6 or Vampire, or even did GURPS ever mention levels or memorizing spells? so while I understand the sentiment, this seems more appropriate for some sort of "D&Der guide to Fate" or something like that. If someone would write that, it would be useful.
Ok, to be fair, I've seen one book do it. It was Palladium's Rifts. They kept saying stuff like "20+ levels like that other game does is stupid! my game has 15 levels which is clearly superior!" or "that other game has 9 alignments! haha what dums dums, my 14 or whatever alignemts are obviously the way to go for more realisms!"
The difference is how similar they are too typical dnd mechanics allows them to not worry about it's with Star wars or vampire, the force and magic is pretty well described how it works. These issues aren't actually issues. In fate, it's "do whatever you want." With no guidelines on how.
Nice review of why FATE is so unique. It indeed is a "love or hate" thing. I think it's a great system but you need the right group to really make it work beautifully. I really encourage people to give it a try, since it's a completely different experience. My "criticism" is that, like Savage Worlds, FATE ends up taking the game into some specific directions (heroic, cinematic, etc) that are not so easy to avoid. The Toolkit helps a lot with this, but then it gets more and more complicated, and it will not necessarily give you the vibe you want, so I guess forcing FATE to be something it's not is like forcing D&D to be something it's not. However, I disagree with the whole "GURPS is dated and this is why it failed and opened the doors for the brilliance of FATE" idea. It's true that GURPS suffers from not making it obviously clear how simple it is, but it's a lie to say that people get away from it because "they don't want to have to read complicated supplements just to be able to play the game they want". The basic rules are very basic and the Basic Module itself goes way, way, way beyond the basics. Even GURPS lite (which is free to download) can be pared down if the players so choose. Anyway, I'm not trying to tell people to play FATE instead of GURPS, I just think that in this age when we have so many cool games to try, people should be encouraged to try more things instead of being driven away from possible options. It's not the crunchiness that drives some people away from systems, it's reviews and comments from people that make other systems seem to be something they're not... This is why GURPS is still alive and strong, because it can actually be many things, because you create the system you want. That doesn't mean it doesn't have its favored styles, but it it certainly and unquestionably one of the most flexible systems out there and I like it very much.
Learning a new RPG system is a little like learning a new language. It helps if the new language is similar to one you already speak. So, what I did to move my group from D&D to Fate Core was to teach them Dungeon World first. It's enough like D&D to help provide a familiar framework, but it has some elements that are very similar to Fate Core. It helped my players get familiar with the idea of inventing and invoking narrative bits as mechanics. After Dungeon World, it was much easier for them to wrap their heads around Fate.
woah... that's a 7 year grudge. Time and forgiveness heals. I'm sure the designer has matured quite a bit since then. I know I'm saddened by the obnoxious asshole I was as a person 7 years ago for sure. Now I'm a much better type of obnoxious asshole :D . Perhaps an olive branch is in order?
I don't think the blatant stubborness of most D&D-only players should be blamed on the writers of Fate. Or any other game. Appealing to their practices and tastes is a good marketing move, but is not a design need, nor a creative duty. I agree leaving "normal" players out is not the most brilliant commercial strategy to widen the market for the product... but I don't think agreeing with the normal is the only, or the best, much less the right way to do creative work. If marketing should always mark the limits for any innovative endeavor... well, then a lot of the innovation will have to be cut short and dumbed down to accomodate stiff habits and stagnant stereotypes. IMO, the reason FATE won't touch stuff related to D&D is because it DOESN'T WANT TO. Which, IMO, is a perfectly valid reason. D&D players already have D&D. Other games don't have any responsability to cater to them.
I'm really sad that 'crunch' has become a dirty word with modern gamers. Seen as dated or detrimental, somehow. I love the verisimilitude of older systems. I love the granularity of plugging my character into clearly defined rules, the physics of his world. The excitement, replayability, and pride in tweaking, building, and system mastery. Modern game design seems to be going in the direction of having less and less of the G pillar of RPG and leaning more into the RP. You can roleplay without a game. You can game without roleplay. But, you lose something magical when you start leaning into one more than the other.
It's because a lot of modern groups aren't really interested in playing a game. They're just trying to find an excuse to get with some friends for a night every few months to get drunk and talk.
I agree with your video. I've read Fate, played it a little, but not enough to pontificate on it. I would like to play more but have no idea how to get my players to agree. I would love to see a version of the rule book that you wrote for example. I would like to see your take on the Amber Diceless RPG. The novels are great (I would argue they are among the best fantasy/sci-fi out there) and the RPG has some fine ideas. But there's something deeply unapproachable and difficult about the game. Too much of it is very vague. And yet something about it still draws me in.
As some who played Warhammer fantesy, Open legand and DnD, I got confused when I started learning this game, everything made little to no sense compared to how others system works
I have played one game of Fate Core and found it fun to play. Only complaint I had initially was how do I make a character and how do I play? Once I got used to the system I had fun, playing with my brothers and their rpg group building a Firefly inspired Galaxy and doing random jobs for fun. Hell we sold sand to a space station that makes "Glass Steal" and is made out of there see through and thin material that is as strong as steal. Literally improve on my part when the GM ask me to create a contract of my character to sell out high quality sand.
I picked up FATE Core a few years ago, looks great but I couldn't find the "easy button" to try and set up a quick game to demo for my group. I'll try it sometime, just need to find a model for what I'd like to run. Or figure out how to do it myself.
Aspects are a great idea that FATE implements, but they implement in an uninspired way. Aspects just create modifiers. Which is... boring. Plus, it makes different aspects mechanically identical, the only distinction being when to apply them. To me this is a waste of an idea. On top of that, FATE uses a metacurrency, a complete immersion-breaker in my book, very extensively and systematically.
This is the best comment on this video
Aspects are modifiers yes. But they also true elements of the narrative. It's like the players can do ANYTHING they want and it can be portrait in the game world. In D&D you would need special rules for every possible thing the players could do that generates narrative AND mechanical effects.
(Hope my non native english is good enough to be understood)
Clearly a critic by someone who have not read well the core book. There's à whole chaotee about extra that can simulate magical or technological objects or even superpower.
Aspect are just some good luck moment or some moment when you wanna makes sure that the camera is focused on your character because of who he is and what he does and know.
@@quintenskevin I think Fate is not good at that either. That being simulating magic, technology or superpowers. It all kind of feels the same, it just influences the dice a little bit. And aspects are no different. A cool concept, wasted as it is transformed into modifiers.
If you were designing Fate's aspects system, how would you have them affect gameplay?
As a fellow lover of Fate, and someone that may a very generalized guide of How to Play Fate, this video makes some good points. I think honestly you could bring these points to a number of smaller ttrpg developers, as I think they get a little too close to the material to see the forest for the trees. Still, a wonderful system, and I'm glad to see more folks covering it.. Well thought and structured video.
Glad you appreciate it!!
I will be taking a look at it since I became interested in the setting of Ehdrigohr and got curious what FATE was about through that.
I had gotten into Fate with age of Arthur, and I remember thinking it would be amazing when Evil Hat brought out more settings for the system. But so many of them never clicked with my table group, and some of it I could never really put my finger on why that was.
I think this video summed it up nicely. It was too big a jump to the left, and it’s vagueness was strength and weakness.
I have found the same with Cortex myself as well, although with Tales of Xadia it might be more concrete.
What Fate game would you recommend trying to see if the muse can come back? Worlds of Fire I find are too brief, wondering what your suggestion would be
@@Preppyicon my suggestion is finding a genre and picking one of the full blown fate settings that fit, not a “worlds of.” The worlds of books are more like examples of how you can use fate to make other games, and aren’t really enough to run a long campaign. (Mostly)
For sci fi, Bulldogs is great if you like firefly/Farscape. Mindjammer is more trans human and harder. Diaspora uses an older version of fate, but is hard sci fi. Starship Tyche is more Star Trek fate.
Fate Freeport is D&D plus Cthulhu fate.
Fate of Cthulhu is pulp Cthulhu where your PC’s can actually be from the future where the mythos won, and have travelled back in time to try and stop it. Or they can be modern people.
Dresden fate (accelerated, though the older base version is great too) for urban fantasy and a great magic system.
Atomic Robo for pulp fate.
There are so many.
@thedungeonnewbsguide I just watched your video on it.... informative and concise... I might switch my system for it
"this is the thesis statement of Fate Core: the less potent the character’s
narrative, the less likely the character is to succeed."
absolutely perfect thesis statement that encapsulates how amazing FATE truly is
which means a player that is a poor storyteller is going to have a poor character. I find that annoying.
@@thekaxmax i wonder why.
@@chadhardt6136 It's a limit on the game that's on the player rather than the character. So a player can't enjoy a game and setting that that may love by relying on die rolls rather than being a creative actor. Some people prefer that, or can't do otherwise. Doesn't affect me so much--I'm a GM with 35 years experience, with 30 years of one campaign in that history.
@@thekaxmax Any game will depend on some kind of skill, if the player is to have any agency at all. In something like D&D, your character is limited by the player's number crunchy wargaming skill and general system mastery. Fate on the other hand runs on narrative so naturally and inevitably it depends on narrative skill. Ultimately this boils down to 'a game depends on player skills in whatever the game is about'.
If you don't want a game relying on narrative, you probably don't want a Fate game, and if you don't want wargamey system mastery, you probably don't want a D&D game.
@@Elukka and FATE rewards actors and social quick-thinkers, not the general run of social-misfit/social-anxiety-ridden/OCD-spectrum gamers, which it punishes. Unless the GM helps them a lot.
"INT is their dump stat lol." That was what was ridiculously hard to catch phrase that seems like it was it flashed by in maybe 1-2 frames at 8:01 . Have to save someone else the headache :)
Just a single frame; if you watch this on a computer, the "," and "." keys can be used to step back or forwards one frame at a time. Oh, and also the text on screen is (very appropriately) mispelled, having "their" written as as "thier"
Lmao Int is everyone's dump stat, except for Int Casters.
Thanks for the help!
@@actualwafflesenjoyer thank you!
@@LaMirah Thanks
I am watching on my phone and had to set it 0.25x speed and tap the screen repeatedly to catch it, lol. Took me a few tries but I finally caught it.
I have never felt a video so hard. I had so much trouble both in running and introducing a Fate-based game (The Dresden Files RPG) to my D&D group and no one ever felt comfortable with how to invoke their aspects or how to deal with combat. We had one amazing combat where someone figured out a few tricks and they managed to take down a BBEG while being relatively lower powered ONCE and then for some reason it just never clicked with them ever again. I actually sent this video to my group and went 'THIS! THIS IS THE ISSUE!' so thank you.
Also just in general I've found your videos to be super thoughtful and insightful and you're probably one of my favorite new TTRPG channels. I'm amazed your following isn't higher at this point. You've got great content, please please PLEASE keep rolling.
Thank you for the kind words, and I'm glad this video was so helpful!!
Dresden Files RPG is a Fate based game, but it's not Fate Core. It is came from before Fate Core (and after Spirit of the Century). In my opinion, DFRPG was even harder to grok than Fate Core was.
If you ever want to consider revisiting Fate, check out the newer published Fate Condensed. It's still effectively "Fate Core", but the rules are presented more clear and concise than the Fate Core book, with a few default mechanical settings that might be more friendly to new players. Also, Fate Accelerated is a very streamlined simple game that works great for many types of settings.
However, it doesn't really address the main criticism of the video about how it doesn't really describe how it's different than D&D. Though, I'm not entirely sure I agree with the premise that it's the responsibility of non-D&D books to describe how and why they are different than D&D. I don't know of any indie RPG that does this, and that puts what I think is an unreasonable burden on all RPG publishers other than WotC. After all, even D&D didn't really explain in their books why they make very radical system changes between some of their versions either.
A classic example from the Core book is when they're talking about creating an fantasy world. One of the characters, Zirn, in a wizard. They begin to talk about how they want magic to work in the setting, then simply decide that they want it to work more or less like any other skill. It felt hand waves rather than an exporation of the various ways that magic systems can work in Fate.
My main setting is in Fate. It has an odd magic system. In it, "mages" find spirits and make deals, subjugate them, or are subjugated by them in order to bind the spirit to their souls and gain their powers. But the spirit also gains a voice in the mage's head. Mechanically, this is some stunts, a stress track for the spirit representing its power reserves, a unique set of powers, and an Aspect that gets added to the character sheet.
The fun part is that if you bind more than one spirit, the next Aspect gained replaces one of those the character already has, to represent the fragmenting of the character's personality as more and more voices fill their heads. If can get kind of dark. But Fate was the only system that let me do the magic system properly. And it let me create one hell of a game.
That sounds awesome
Thank you! This is a perfect example of extending FATE to have a tailored world. Something I sorely lacked when we were playing, and which I think pretty much gave me a very negative view of the system as just the players inventing things on the fly and nitpicking what the GM said to give themselves a stackable modifier.
@@krinkrin5982 The stacking mods and nitpicking the GM descriptions...yeah I was that player. He'll I was that DM. I was just so deep into Dnd and some Savage Worlds I couldn't get out of that crunch mindset.
Strangely it was Mutants and Masterminds that broke me out. The fact that they broke down all spells feats and class abilities into classes less point buy system sorta just reorganized how I saw all rpgs. I got to play FATE Dresden files after and had a much better experience.
I really love your magic system and its an excellent example of the power FATE gives to narrative.
So how to play wizard if I want just "standart" magic and I wanna to learn new skills?
I played fate alot, but we always avoid magic
Your "odd" magic system sounds like the magic system from the Dying Earth series by Jack Vance, which lends its name to the Vancian Magic system that normal DnD uses. Spell slots are how many spirits you can cram into your head and/or how often you bargained or force that entity to do your bidding before an arbitrary rest period, at least in the beginnings of DnD. You kinda just flavoured the cleric a little differently.
Agree. Most folks would rather mod 5e rather than try a different rpg that does what they want in the first place. Part of the reason is that there are so many 5e players available.
I wish I knew any other GMs that run systems other than 5e.
Was that uncalled for?
@@theosophicalwatermelons8181 I run Pathfinder 2nd edition. Same vein, but man so much better than 5e, at least in my opinion.
another part is that they don't know other RPGs exist yet. lol
@@DungeonMasterpiece The rhetoric people use to talk about other RPGs like Fate doesn't help either. It feels like in this video the game is being judged for not being DnD instead of being itself. The game isn't that hard to pick up.
Huh. You know what - The point about there being no simple entry for Fate Core Fantasy hits home so hard. When I was starting Fate, I just bought every obscure Fate Worlds supplement from RPG-Drivethru to find a good way to represent magic in Fate. This handwaving "The wizard does the same things with the same skills as any non-magic user, just flavored as magic" feels just wrong. Magic is included in Fantasy BECAUSE it does things that are impossible otherwise.
I initially got into FATE through the Dresden books, and am so glad I did just because of how it addresses the use/inclusion of magic, the supernatural, and fantasy races. Could easily see myself basically running games of Fiasco in FATE otherwise... just maybe with a happy ending. >.>
@@SvafaBlackhand There are different Fate games out there with examples of types of Magic systems, but it's a vague, nebulous, and fictional concept so it's hard to find something that works for everyone. I'm not sure if you are referring to the Dresden Files RPG or Dresden Files Accelerated, but I found DFA interesting from what I've seen. IIRC, it treated magic in a similar way as Atomic Robo "Invention". The most D&D like Fate product I've seen is probably Freeport Companion, but I'm not sure how I feel about it myself.
Its related to why 4e DnD failed: game designers see physical feats, magic, class abilities etc as the same.
But players dont.
So writing a ttrpg where a wizard is 'does attacks but with ' and a fighter is 'does attacks but with fundamentally misses what players wants. They want the fantasy, not to see behind the game design curtains at all times.
This is also where open narrative games fall down: they say things like 'hey players plan your character arcs and design your mechanical feats' instead of 'think about your goals and what abilities you would like to have'. No one can take that designer speak seriously
Came across this video again after seeing it 2 years ago.... There's a difference between "do the same stuff but with magic" vs "same resolution system for combat and magic." In a narrative system, having no magic is like gunning the engine with the clutch stuck in - you didn't even engage the mechanics, because you can't do it. The guy with the bow can't zot someone with arcane bolts. Magic makes the narrative action possible, but the resolution is handled the same. The issue I think people are having is that they want magic to be mechanically differentiated since it is narratively different. But disliking that comes down to wanting a simple mechanic vs crunchy. I mean, no one is criticizing Dread for not being mechanically deep. It's either, yeah I want to play it or nah, doesn't sound like what I want. If it all feels samey, then you probably just don't actually want a unified mechanic. I am curious what games are mechanically simple while also being diverse. Maybe Blades?
I'm one of the few players who was introduced to the TTRPGs with Fate Core. It is a bizzare experience, to see so many people agree on what is norm and what is strange, while me seeing things as completely opposite.
My number 1 roleplaying pet peeve is "D&D 5e only players" who try to cram every genre under the sun into 5e. Guys, just go play Savage Worlds. It's made for that and it's very easy to learn.
To me 5th edition is a great gateway RPG or a game for what I call RPG dabblers. It's to simplified for my tastes which is also part of why I don't like Fate but I'm willing to try almost any new RPG once.
No, making something that isn't meant for it is fun
@@Chuck9852 did that weird, pointless, out of place dig make you feel good about yourself?
eh, I might actually say the same applies for savage worlds. its good for broadly pulpy adventures, but it might not be the best for long form minutia progression campaigns where you might want to use some varient of gurps.
@@midshipman8654 in a sense I agree with you. Savage Worlds and GURPS can both do any genre broadly. Savage Worlds excels at pulp action, while GURPS does a better job at gritty realism.
A Masterclass on the value of clear language, useful as always to the aspiring game dev.
My only experience with Fate was as a player. I found I was spending so much time thinking up how to make aspects out of everything around me, the story became secondary. Like the Big Bad is monologuing big plot points and Im thinking how i can use the floral arrangement in the scene to my advantage.
At least we can concead that its great at tatical thinking.
This is why FATE will never be the solution for any of my RPG needs.
In gamifying the parts of the TTRPG experience that are usually the purview of freeform roleplay, and by placing arbitrary restrictions on when players can interact with the narrative (or rather, force the narrative) through metacurrencies, I've never had a FATE experience that felt like I was a character inhabiting a story.
It always feels to me like I'm a player at a table talking about a story I'd love to actually be playing in.
It's fine if you enjoy that. I don't, nor have any patience for it.
@@mikevides4494I don't get this angle. 90% of the roleplaying that actually has some chance to change story or world elements in a TTRPG are gamified.
Every D&D DM will ask you for a check in those situations; every Cyberpunk GM will ask what kind of skill your character would have that would help you in that situation; a FATE GM will ask you how you can justify that action.
You're missing the forest for the trees in this regard, which seems to be a big issue with most d20 system players. You can interact with the narrative at any point in FATE, in fact you can it a lot more than in most other systems. You are not in the typical player seat other RPGs give you, you can add actual details to the story; you can create opportunities to be exploited later; you can give an indirect advantage to another player.
Fate points will be there when you want and need them, and if not, you can make more with your decisions (there are so many ways to regain fate points with a competent GM). They're a powerful tool to gain an advantage, not something that limits what you can do.
@@mikevides4494can I ask what you use instead. I was recommended Fate by a friend and after reading going through the website for an hour this is my biggest fear about this system. I’d love to know what ttrpg you use to avoid this
Being fair fate was always more into the "generative" side on the table of narratives than the premade storyline classic narrative. You literally can make shit on the spot. And that is the fun thing about the game foe me, like a gm.
Spot on. My group tried FATE, and it really didn't fit great for anyone but me. We settled on Cypher system as doing the best job of offering what we most wanted in a core system.
I found FATE has worked great when playing with people who are a bunch of drama nerds, experienced GMs, writers, and/or teachers. Not so much with others. The "anything you want" problem really frustrated people who needed some specifics and limitations to help guide their narrative thinking.
Cypher system has turned out to be an excellent fit. It does most of the same things right that FATE does, but answers the problems you raised in this video. It is narrative-first and supports that sort of improvised narrative play. However, it is more mechanically specific and includes nods to the ideas of things like "classes", "levels", and "HP"... at least enough to ease you in until you realize they actually function totally differently from D&D. It has a stock flagship Science Fantasy setting that will be accessible and familiar to medieval fantasy players, but with it's own weird twist. It has setting specific supplements for types of games people are probably most likely to gravitate towards: Science Fiction, Super Hero, and two additional Fantasy settings.
I also found the Cypher System to be flexible enough for what we wanted... but with much better explanations on how to use it and apply it.
Good point about who could really use the system to it’s full potential, that ties in with how I compare it with games like Vampire The Masquerade; which really suits larpers (advanced drama nerds).
Cypher has a dedicated book for fantasy as well.
We should note that many GURPS supplements are the gold standard for useful, detailed, well researched and well written RPG books. The majority of them can be used with any RPG system.
I am a big fan of the Dresden Files and as such, i purchased both iterations of the game (Fate and Fate Accelerated). Howerver, going through the rules I have a hard time making sense of those in a gaming environment. They are easy to read/understand but i find them hard ro apply. Your video makes so much sense to describe the confusion. I would live to hear more from you on how to play and even run (and prep) a FATE game. Cheers!
It's in the backlog! Stay tuned!
Just run the previous edition of Fate's Dresden Files RPG. It's great and arguably better than this edition anyways. Last edition of Fate had less of an identity crisis.
You make some great videos man! I'm not just saying that because you mentioned me either. I've seen your videos from some people in my communities recommendations. Keep at it man, you're making some great content!
Thanks so much! That means a lot! I don't plan on slowing down!
I love me GURPS and universal systems. I feel like you missed the mark on GURPS supplements though. At least in so far as characterizing them as necessary. They mostly are the explanatory guide on how to use the core mechanics to reach a theme or emulate an ability of the stated supplement topic. A thing FATE could and should steal. GURPS supplements rarely add anything new (outside maybe a few techniques from Kung Fu or items like in all "Tech" supplements) but spend a lot of time on how to theme skills, setting tropes, build atmosphere, historical summaries, and the always amazing Appendix N style lists of inspirational material. I strongly implore a deeper reading of GURPS as the characterization of a needlessly complex dumptruck of systems misses it's true value as a TTRPG system of study and design.
BTW this is true of GURPS 4th Edition. GURPS 1-3rd Edition would regularly add new advantages, sometimes contradicting each other. This confusion and profusion prompted the creation of Fourth Edition and the current hardback genre and setting books.
Also worth noting: the Fudge system, the ancestor of Fate, was a reaction to GURPS's crunchiness. The author of Fudge wanted something lighter for his "Faerie" supplement and invented his own system ... which was basically a dice mechanic with suggestions for use. Fate actually managed to be both more concrete and more adaptable than a number of other Fudge "builds".
My group found the mechanics very easy to understand and pick up. Of course we are experienced in D&D and knew full well the concepts of rpgs. As a new gm of fate, i didn't find it too difficult to learn and play or teach. The game system teaches the mechanics you need, but leave a lot of options for the GM to establish such as magic and the like. I used Fate Accelerated for an online game and the players were so lost in the story and aspects and the narrative that they didn't miss leveling up or the normal D&Disms. They still talk about the fate campaign and never really mention much about our other D&D campaigns. Story over mechanics is what it seemed to boil down to for us.
I think it's actually easier to use Accelerated when switching from D&D. Core's skill system makes it too easy to fall back in game-mechanics mode, while Accelerated simply drops all that stuff, there's just the _way_ you approach something. Lot harder to fall in mechanics mode that way.
@@nagranoth_ I agree 100%
That's very interesting for me, because I found the switch from DnD to Fate quite difficult, since it did not come natural to me to encourage players to manipulate the game after years of playing RPGs the 'regular' way.
@esenozbay I can see that, my group loved the fact that I would have them narrate the outcomes so they had some idea of control over their players scenes. In D&D you can do the same thing but the system has a more pass fail feeling to my group. They feel like Fate allowed them to really open up and have fun with what their characters were doing. But every group is different.
Ive watched Wil Wheaton's gameplay of FATE on geek and sundry's Tabletop and I still have no clue as to how it works. And i played FU .
As a gm and player, is there a reason why evil hat released not one but two (correct me if im wrong) simplified versions of FATE?
I tried FATE Core once. I eventually understood the basics, but it felt so bare-bones, like being taken to an empty field and being told "GO" and noting else. It's about having so much freedom to "do whatever", that it's easy to NOT KNOW what you want to do.
It's why I like the Forged In The Dark system; it has *just enough* meat on its bones to give you a nudge in the campaign/setting direction while not constricting you.
"And playing a roleplaying game is playing D&D."
I don't know how we got to that point, but it's such a terrible disservice to lump all the good RPGs out there with D&D. Those poor bastards.
Marketing.... Lol
I only ever played a game of D&D in my life and was bored to death, as far as I'm concerned its a war game with rpg attached to it, OSR titles like lamentations of the flame princess are a different matter though...
@@paulll47 Totally depend on who your playing with and of course, the style of the D/GM.I've been bored and entralled in a multitude of games, and it always breaks down to a simple GM understanding and mechanic: Does the player always HAVE to roll to continue the story arc, or not. If they do then all player agency is robbed and the game will become stale fast. If the player only rolls when something is critical and chance enhances the play, then you have a tool for generating excitment and longevity. My 2c :D
@@justicebrewing9449 Of course the GM makes or breaks the game but I can honestly say that I've rarely been bored by a game as I was with D&D, I think its due to multiple factors ranging from clunky mechanics (I didn't know you could get clunkier than oWoD but damn D&D, you are something else) to a setting that quite honestly fails to entertain me.
For me it's the quickest way to tell lay people about the hobby.
Very well-researched and appreciated take. Since you're discussing non-setting specific games, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Cypher System.
As a longterm role player who never bought into spell slots, levels, classes, alignments, vancian magic and the other d&d dogmas, I've found the entry into Fate to be something else entirely... it's about how unnatural it seems to suddenly change one's fluid speech into something invoking-compelling-aspects-fate points. The sudden change from telling the story and describing the action to Fatespeak takes the players out of their immersion and into linguistic conversions.
Never had a problem with that at all. The aspects and stunts are supposed to be part of a conversation. It’s one of the 2 most RP pure systems on the market. The only one that may be more RP heavy is Powered by the Apocalypse.
@@christophermichael6844 your mileage may vary. Fate conversations don't have to be phrased in fate-speak but often are. Perhaps experienced GMs might phrase "the sofa was on fire when you laid down on it" and the players can convert that to game terms mentally but new GMs tend to "as you lie down on the sofa you find it has a fire aspect which is being invoked"
@@RockOfLions That’s…not how a GM would ever phrase that. Maybe, very maybe, you might hear this from someone who has never in their life run a game of any kind.
@@christophermichael6844 as a matter of fact I heard that line from a GM (with some credentials and experience) promoting the Fate Core system, but the immersion in Fate speak comes out in other videos where the maps are marked off in "zones" and sticky notes literally say "fire aspect" etc.
@@RockOfLions how would someone lie down on a sofa without knowing it was on fire
I'm one of the "haters" of Fate. I really tried to give the game system a chance, but it's just not for me or my group, but that's because the game caters to another type of gamer. I like RPG's with deep mechanical and simulationist elements while Fate is a rules lite narrative system, basically two opposite game philosophies. There was a period when rules lite narrative systems were all the rage and Fate was at the top of the list and there was a sort of elitist attitude amongst the fans of those games which soured my opinions even further.
I'm very much a simulationist GM/Player. My home system is GURPS! But I am currently running a French Resistance FATE campaign. I've been running it for about 2 years or so. And I run it simulationist. And I've got some great mechanical crunch for the players to bite into. As a simulationist, I've primarily been what could be called a "character simulationist"--in that I'm interested in exploring character and seeing how they change in response to their environment and as part of their environment. That style of simulationism is what drew me to GURPS in the first place. And I have to say, the way I run FATE? I've found it to be one of the best systems for character simulationism. I'm also pretty proud of my ability to get gamers like you (and me) to enjoy FATE...because I think it 100% can work in ways that harmonize with a simulationist philosophy. It just involves some minor tweaks...and some of those tweaks are more about the perception/interpretation/explaination of the rules rather than the rules themselves.
At first, I thought Fate was the bee's knees... but then I realized that magic is the skill that is all skills and I have yet to see a handling of it that keeps it in check while still letting it be fun.
There is a system that hits a sweet spot that many people who like things about Fate but can't stand it might like... BareBones Fantasy is a d100 system that has a nice mix of generality and specificity in it. I think someone might be able to port over that magic system to Fate and make it work.
There is a sweet spot between abstraction/generality and specificity/crunch. Fate errs on being way too abstract, I think. I mean... I like rolling different dice for different stuff.
I think DCC RPG hits a sweet spot for a lot of people. Their Mighty Deed Die makes warriors seem like magicians of brawn and steel.
That was my issue as well. As soon as he called GURPS "dated" he might as well have said "no longer trendy". GURPS works as well as it always has. It's simply not the most popular paradigm these days. And that tells me that you're following the crowd that what's popular equals what's good.
I've actually found simulationist style games in Fate way more satisfying than in something hardcore crunchy like, for example, full-rules GURPS or Hero. Super crunchy simulationist games inevitably hit a wall (the perfect map of the territory is the territory itself, which is useless as a map). Using Aspects, et al, from Fate, I can "simulate" any number of elements and complications. Simulationist games don't need granular rules for every single possibility (and they can't).
To be clear, I've been playing GURPS since the mid-80s, played a lot of Hero since then, too. I just find Fate a more elegant solution.
I'm not sure how "Simulation" can apply to fantasy/space opera/anything to which there's no actual real-world comparison. And for "Modern" gaming, there are better, more streamlined systems to use.
Comparing Fate Core’s sourcebooks to Gurps is a pretty stark contrast. Gurps sourcebooks are the absolute gold standard in this category. Books like Martial arts and Tactical shooting are master classes in how to make a sourcebook, dwarfing anything 5e has remotely put out. This being said its important to understand even Gurps fell into the DND train somewhat with the release of Dungeon fantasy in 2017 which is undeniably in response to the popularity of DnD 5e.
(Incoming long comment)
I adore Fate.
My journey started when I wanted to find a generic system (that was definitely not GURPS) to play with my son. I came across Strands of Fate. While I loved it and saw tremendous potential, there were some things that I didn't quite grasp, so upon learning it was based on Core, I picked up that book.
As I read Core, things seemed to make more sense (though I learned later I was misunderstanding some things) but I was confused by how simple it was. I kept thinking, for example, that there should be lists of manoeuvers. How do I trip someone in combat? How do I disarm them? How do I throw sand in their eyes? It took embarrassingly long to realize that all of these actions were simply Create an Advantage.
But even then, it was a bit confusing. Someone online gave me the example of invoking an advantage against someone who was "Afraid of Mice" and their explanation suggested that by spending a Fate Point to invoke, I now had a mouse in my pocket, ready for use...
Moving on from there, I went to FAE, figuring that going to the "simplest" version would make it all clear, but it made things worse. Having "Sun Caller" as an Aspect means you can use fire magic? I was looking for stunts and systems to explain it all. It took me *far* too long to figure the system out, but that was because I had to unlearn every other game system first.
One thing that actually helped immensely was coming across Four Coloured FAE and its writeup of the first Avengers Movie as a session of FAE. They also did a writeup of Batman: Year One as a campaign. They made things quite clear for me and I have to say that I now consider FAE to be the absolutely perfect game for superheroes. Nothing else touches it.
In regards to magic, Fate can't really give a definition of how it should work simply because the point of Fate is to "adjust the dials" and make your own game. But that is why so many people get frustrated looking through a dozen books, seeing a dozen magic systems, and not liking any of them. I myself tried making my own system several times and finally just shrugged and decided to more or less do it like Zird, but that doesn't truly satisfy me.
I often thought that the reason there is no good, solid, official Fate Fantasy book was a desire to distance itself from D&D. But that seems odd since so many examples in the book use a fantasy setting.
As I said, I do love Fate. It is definitely one of my top 3 RPGs, but it does cause me some frustration at times.
"Four Coloured FAE and its writeup of the first Avengers Movie as a session of FAE". - Any chance for a link? Having trouble googling for it.
Here's the link. Avengers Accelerated is midway down: station53.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-essential-four-color-fae.html?m=1
@@AntonioCarlosPorto I can't post a link because TH-cam will delete it, but google "Avengers Accelerated: The Invasion Begins - Station53"
This is something I have never even considered. I was really into the indie RPG scene in the early 2000’s, and my exposure to every kind of weird RPG system imaginable has left me entirely blind to the mindset you describe here. I suspect the authors of FATE came from a similiar place.
I hate to say this, but this is because a lot of indie developers had their heads up their asses smelling their own farts and thinking it perfume. There was a LOT of "we're just BETTER than you" snobbery in the Indie RPG scene, typified by The Forge forums. I mean, Ron Edwards liked to describe people who liked what D&D was doing as "brain-damaged." The intended audience of games like FATE Core is not players new to the hobby, which is why this whole mindset described exists.
@@Stray7 I mean, you’re not wrong. There was definitely an air of superiority over the tone of some of the people in The Forge movement. The community I was a part of at the time, the Norwegian indie RPG scene, was very different both in tone of discussion and in the games we produced. I consumed a lot of Forge games, but I was never a part of the community.
@@EisenKreutzer Good to hear there were other scenes. What sort of games came out of your scene?
@@Stray7 The one that’s garnered the most international success is a surrealist RPG called Itras By.
@@Stray7 I wouldn't necessarily assume snobbery. I don't know how plugged into it you are, but several of the designers of Fate ALSO play D&D still. I think they would agree that D&D is a better system for a D&D style game. On the other hand, the more different a game is from a D&D style of game, the more awkward to hack it.
That said, I don't doubt that you've encountered some toxic RPG fan experiences though. Gatekeeping can be unfortunately common in just about any fandom including D&D, where I've seen some people being VERY nasty about Fate, even going so far as to claim it's not really a "game".
One funny thing I've noticed among a lot of Fate players is that many of them actually liked 4E D&D more most other D&D players did. For myself, there were elements in 4E that made me more receptive to Fate, such as emphasizing cinematic combat, using improv techniques, giving more room for player agency and narrative input, more hackability, and starting characters as already being a little more heroic.
Suddenly, after watching this, I feel a lot better about my inability to wrap my head around Fate Core. I have both GURPS and Fate Core, and if I was told to run a game or character in one of those, I'd probably pick GURPS. For all of the crunch, it does a pretty decent job of at least explaining how the system works
As an older player used to crunchy games? I had given up on narrative games till I got to Cortex Heroic (now Cortex prime). It's still not the best fit for me compared to HERO but it makes sense to me. Trying to go through Fate gave me headaches.
I think the big problem a game's advocates can have is assuming everyone thinks the same. Or want the same things in play. The sooner we can understand what someone else is wanting the sooner we can figure out if our system of choice is a file for for them or not. Too often we assume our game is objectively better rather than recognizing personal tastes matter MORE.
I had to laugh at GURPS being called dated. Yeah, it doesn't look like modern RPGs because no one did what GURPS do best, better. Which is a set of tools to make your own home brew system. I play with my one home brewed system and although very different from GURPS, it has always been a source of inspiration.
GURPS was and still is the best generic RPG system out there. For poor kids like me, who didn't have a lot of money, buying a couple of supplements I could run a diverse set of games.
Sure, if you have unlimited money, you can have a shelf fool of RPG books and professionally designed games, but that is not the reality of a lot of RPG hobbyists around the world.
@Dungeon Masterpiece - Have you considered writing a primer or 'newbs guide' to FATE Core? Sure it could be really useful!
This is definitely something I have in the backlog
@@DungeonMasterpiece any updates on that? I love the look of this system but learning it as a complete beginner has proven tough due to my lack of experience.
I want to get other players excited and prepared to play this, but I'm not sure how
@@Phystle It keeps getting buried further in the backlog. I'll get to it eventually
Great video, as someone who's run a lot of Fate I thought you made some very interesting points. I used to really be into Fate and did a fair amount of videos on it, although TBH I mostly run and play OSR retroclones nowadays.
I've been working on my own TTRPG system for a while now that shares a lot of similarities with FATE (and also some of its pitfalls). This video will be helpful for my 17th rewrite.
Right there with you. I'm version 14 myself. That doesn't include all the sub versions before i rewrote the system again.
Doing the same, right now on my 3rd full rewrite 🦉
Yeah, I don't have a specific count for my rewrites, but I've been doing a lot of tweaks. Clarity in language is a big concern, however ...
As someone who owns several Fate books (including one of the oft-cited good examples of how to play, Atomic Robo) but has bounced off them enough times to be afraid to bring to my group, this really resonates. Telling folks to read other supplements, Book of Hanz, etc. is not a great path to understanding.
That said, I'd love to hear a bit more depth about what you think could help draw people in, especially folks coming from D&D, etc. I love that there are 50 page forum posts trying to explain Fate, but that's not digestible to a gaming group unfortunately :(
That's an upcoming set of episodes. How to play fate, and how to use magic in fate
The Dresden Files RPG, which runs on Fate, did a pretty good job of explaining why the mechanics work IMO.
More to the point, my current favourite system (generic or not) is actually Chaosium's HeroQuest 2e. Every strength of Fate is improved upon, and despite (or more often because of) often outright reversing standard RPG assumptions. And just as importantly, the book is very careful and explicit in its explanations of why every mechanic exists, how they each fit into the broader context of the system, and how to actually use them effectively in play in various situations. It's so different from the industry norm that despite all that it's admittedly tricky to wrap your head around, but damn if it isn't the best narratively-focused system I've ever seen.
I've played FATE core, and I appreciate it's narrative driven mechanics, but I vastly prefer PbtA games. Granted, PbtA isn't a single role playing game, but more like an engine upon which many games have been built. But FATE requires the GM and the players to do so much of the heavy lifting in making their game play they way they want it to. PbtA games do all that heavy lifting for you. I would love to see a video you did on PbtA.
Agreed! I think both systems (or types of systems) aim for something similar (focus on narrative and cut down on mechanical crunch), and I admire what Fate does, but after I got introduced to pbtA I am quite spoiled by it's elegance and it's simplicity in getting started with it as a player. Fate is great and fast but needs quite a bit of skill as a GM and as a player. PbtA needs a good GM, yes, but it focuses on player decisions (who can rely on some simple yet cool actions).
Now I want to make a D&D campaign with PbtA mechanics lol
DAMN, I love your analysis about how people can't leave D&D just for a while. My local commnity is filled with people that either tries to hack 5e into something else or when actually playing something else fall into D&D's style of game, yet when they are presented with newer games they just reject it like it is some sort of disesase, sometimes even been hostile towards the person showing something else, like, I even recall being called a f*cking hipster that only wants to play games no one cares about because I've always said that I enjoyed Dungeon World more, thankfully it was a looooooooong time ago and things are looking better, but this unbound loyalty to D&D and its tropes still lingers.
You need to have a storyteller that wants you to be part of the story. The key phrases and abilities you'd build into the PC gets ignored and you just need to follow along. I've not had a good experience. These aspects were never used, it's lame and you feel uninvolved. I'd give it a shot again, but walk away if there isn't collaboration.
As someone who has taught dozens of people this game, you're absolutely right that getting into it is the hardest part. I love the game, but I had to spend months in the online community before I understood it and I can't reliably share that understanding with new players fast enough to keep them from giving up after a few confusing sessions.
The Book of Hanz does a great job of breaking it down, but you have to really wanna learn to dig that far into a new game.
I was worried about how I'd feel about this video, but I really appreciate your fair but firm critique.
Yep. Aspects are everything. And Aspect wording is king.
Taking the "classes, levels and spells" from 5e and shoving them into another system is exactly how Dungeon World felt to me. But I think the plan was to do what Fate has not, in order to introduce new players. I'm so glad I tried other PbtA games, before I gave up on the system.
The only one I've really tinkered with is DW. Which do you recommend I read as a literary exercise? (I prolly won't play it, so it can be off the wall. Also, moftw prolly won't interest me hahha)
@@DungeonMasterpiece
Ironsworn is highly rated. Uncharted Worlds is another. City of Mist is another popular choice.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Spirit of 77, Tremulus and the Sprawl are solid pbta works
@@DungeonMasterpiece The original Apocalypse World is amazing as a work of literature. Lots of evocative language in that book.
Dungeon World feels like the least PBTA of PBTA games. I hacked my own system where HP and damage rolls are present, but feel more like a condition-based Game (like Masks) where losing ,4-5 HP can result in a condition
A very interesting video! It's definitely paramount for RPG developers to explain their system assumptions and put the players in the right state of mind when approaching the game.
I feel like this video misses a lot of context. When Fate Core came out, some of the more popular versions of Fate were generic fantasy (Legends of Anglerre) and bog-standard science fiction (Starblazer Adventures). Those books exist, the lack of a book about it is not what is stopping Fate from taking off.
Also DnD is only ubiquitous in America, and even then that isn't because DnD itself was popular. My theory is it became specifically ubiquitous after all of the podcasts and twitch personalities started using the system. When I first got into rpgs, most of the circles I knew of only played warhammer or battle tech. And they played mostly everything other than DnD. This was when I was playing in 3 different states as well.
@@ramblers2971 DnD has been ubiquitous in the US long before podcasts and Twitch ever existed. It was the second RPG system ever made (at least, one descended from table top war games).
@@ramblers2971 I think you are at least partially right about the podcasts and personalities, but I think there was a big Stranger Things effect too.
@@ramblers2971 if you started gaming in the era of Warhammer and Battletech, you don't remember the days when D&D was (pretty much literally) the only game in town. Without its success, popularity and ubiquity, tabletop gaming really wouldn't exist.
Wow, you never fail to make me think, I mean really think about rpg's. I can't take it anymore, where are your live play sessions that will help me understand this? I have always wanted to play Fate however, I just don't understand how it works. Thank you for your work in helping me to expand my understanding and thinking of rpg's and other games.
I feel Fate was way too "simple" for my taste. but you do you, I found Dungeon World and that game engine is to me what I wanted from Fate when I read about it being rules-light.
Can't knock PbtA games, it's a solid system, it's fun, and there's enough DNA in common with Fate-type games that it's accessible without too much more crunch. I'm partial to Scum & Villainy or Starforged, myself.
That's weird because Dungeon Worlds is considered the worst implementation of a PBtA
I'll still take GURPS any day.
I like the crunch, and still having the ability to do anything I want to.
If we want hand wavey game mechanics like Fate, Cortex Prime is the way to go.
Taking players used to crunch and getting them to understand that their fiction us what drives the narrative, and that they need to create good fiction to have powerful effects is so difficult, but so worth it. I NEVER give a new player the rule book, because if they read it they will certainly not understand it. I just walk them through making a character and creating aspects, then assign skills, and then we start playing and I explain to them some of the things they might do along the way. Generally they can get up to speed within one session, but true mastery tales several sessions. Fate, for as much as it is so much lighter on rules, has a much steeper learning curve than many systems because the crunch players relied upon to tell them what they are allowed to do is entirely absent.
I definitely agree Fate lacks a broad starting point for beginners to get into the system. My biggest successes with the Fate System were running games set in Star Wars using an online fan supplement.
Burning Wheel has the exact same issue. It turns it's narrative structure and character stories into mechanics first and foremost, and it leaves people used to narrative games confused because there's a lot of rules, and "gameists" confused because they're mostly expecting rules for how characters mechanically do things.
The thing about people hacking 5e is that on some level, it's writers seem to expect people to hack it. If you just take every system in the PHB and actually use it as-written, *including* stuff like exhaustion from not getting food, marching orders, trying to figure out how much can fit in a container... 5e is super weird if you do that. It's almost like the designers *know* it's weird and just made a "figure out what to do with this" kinda system. The DMG effectively says "if you don't like something just chuck it", like no system is particularly reliant on any other. Personally, the end result is that I have no idea what 5e is trying to be at it's core. I still think it's obnoxious that more people don't realize they can just look elsewhere for a ruleset that fits what they want better, but the hacks are sort of encouraged.
And then there's the D&D purists who insist that a lot of smaller systems are trying to "kill RPGs" somehow.
I gave you a little hint what is try it to be and always want to be. They want to be gurps but harder, like making you buy a manual to every problem or void.
Want a counterexample of that? Fantasycraft, is a very bloated book, VERY focused like a toolbox like for every type of fantasy game you can think.
Also this mindset let them design some...risky things into the core and make it surprisingly work...like being a drake like a base race. Not dragonborn, not kobold,.not humanoid, full wing, breath weapon drake.
This video is so well explained it managed to put me back in the shoes of the kid I was discovering D&D3.0 a long time ago, I exposed myself to so many other system so quickly after this first encounter that I tend to forget that for a short time RPG and the D20 system where synonimous to me.
Well, I come from non-DnD playing background and must say it was never a problem to pick up and understand Fate. Maybe it's a problem with DnD-only players, because due to how DnD works it cripples understanding of various other RPG concepts. Try to pull of Apocalypse World or Blades in the Dark for 5e players. Or even some OSR system - when you don't have "game console" of a character sheet.
The problem with Fate is not only different tools to play but also mindset. Fate Point economy requires you to put your character in trouble or in danger. It's not only more meta than DnD, it also introduces meta thinking of a character - you're interested in the story emerging from problems and not "me against the world" narrative.
It isn't just DnD "crippling" peoples' understanding, it is that FATE uses a different conceit compared to virtually every RPG (and board/video game) out there. In every other game I've played, the player is supposed to inhabit their character, and make decisions and take actions in a simulated world in order to try and achieve that character's goals (within the limits of the character's personality). FATE is radically different, in that the player isn't inhabiting their character, they are more of an author/actor who is writing/portraying their character. In FATE, you don't so much inhabit a character and choose their actions, as you lead your character through a world, choosing to create and use story details (both of the character and the rest of the game world) to resolve conflicts.
In my experience, gamers of almost every stripe struggle when presented with FATE rules systems, while creatives (theatre kids, aspiring authors, etc.) are the ones who can pick it up easily. This is especially egregious, because the rule book never explicitly acknowledges that it functions in a fundamentally different way from any previous game the prospective player may be familiar with, be it Skyrim, DnD, Vampire the Masquerade, or even Monopoly. And since FATE looks superficially similar to most other TTRPGs (you have a character sheet with skills and abilities, a GM to describe the world, etc.), it is very easy for a player to go in with the standard gaming mindset and get frustrated.
Great video on this. I have a number if these books and have ran the system a couple of times always to the same effect. The players get one or two sessions in and we move to a different game. All of the fate worlds seemed extremely niche, creating a generic system and then immediately putting a massive restriction on it. Instead of helping the players and GM realize a big standard; fantasy, sci-fi, or horror game. You are immediately encouraged to do some esoteric or extremely limited setting. I concur with your statements across the board. Saying they created a great system, just missed the mark in selling the product to the masses.
I agree completely. If it hadn't been for the truly wonderful GM I had, and the amazingly well-written Dresden Files RPG game, I never would've gotten into Fate.
The original DFRPG...it had its good points, but it wasn't well edited and somewhat vulnerable to power-gaming; too much flavor text and not enough examples made it slow going for my group. I was coming up with house rules to fix that until I found Dresden Accelerated. Running it for three years now.
Dresden Accelerated is the best FATE system there is right now ❤️
My big problem with DFRPG was it was a great variant of FATE, but I wasn't deep into the lore. I saw the Dresden TV show, but I'd never read the books. Plus the plots are very "on rails". I kept trying to find the thread I was supposed to pull to figure out the mystery or advance the plot and some of it is locked out of the characters' control.
08:45 2 years later, can anyone recommend a video or book to answer the questions presented here?
This sounds like a really promising. I have played a similar system before which could explain this thesis in under one DinA4 page. I would love to see more fate content if you would be willing to do more!
I'm getting quite a bit of positive feedback from it, so I just might! I think next week I'll do a magic in fate core
I was lucky enough to start on the ground floor with Fate, both 2nd Edition (which handled Aspects very differently) and _Spirit of the Century_ , which was the prototype for the current edition of Fate. SotC both explained why and how Fate was supposed to work and gave a concrete setting of 1920s pulp action. Maybe it was the GM we had at the time, but some of our players came from a D&D background (AFAIK) yet had no problems with creating and playing SotC characters.
Ive tried running Fate and playing the Dresden Files. I love the idea of Aspects and invoking them but struggled to actually play them. And getting my players invested for more than a few sessions was difficult also. I could never quite put my finger on it. It was far from being overly crunchy and dense but the connection between narrative and mechanics was exactly what explained why it didn't click.
Playing dnd 3e (not even ADnD and I feel old) for the first time I had similar feelings. This dense book with new concepts and so many rules. But my friend just explained "You want to do X? Roll this 1d20 add bonuses and beat this number." Click! I still remember that moment because this was my first experience with any boardgame more complex than monopoly. FATE needs something like this to explain thier core mechanic.
That being said character creation in FATE is prolly my favorite part and ive stolen aspects (hehe) from it and use it whenever I run 5e for players. Having players form some kind of connection between 2 or more players makes for great party backstory and motivation to stick together after barely surviving an umber hulk ambush.
I don't really think that Fate is so much unintuitive as much as it has a very different mental model and D&D veterans have trouble adjusting their mental model. They bring in a lot of experience and assumptions without even realizing it. They look at Fate and they try to figure out how to translate D&D mechanical idioms into Fate. When there's not an exact 1:1 equivalent, or the equivalents have a lot more nuance to them, D&D veterans get a bit frustrated and confused.
Though the funny thing is, when you have completely new players to Fate that have never played D&D, they generally don't nearly as much trouble. To get Fate, you kind of have to turn off your D&D knowledge and start over.
Great vid, perfectly encapsulates my frustration with learning how to "DM" the game, and yet I leave this video with +1 frustrations: you did not explain any of it either!! 🤣Seriously though, this would have been a great kickoff to a series, or even provide some links with answers to the questions you pose.
Guess the algorithm finally decided this might interest me. Great video! So many points that sort of swirled in my head but I hadn't really been able to articulate. Always wondered why I couldn't quite sell my friends on FATE - I had never really thought of it in terms of self marketing for audience, but yeah, totally hit the nail on the head. I'd be able to sell it better if they could sell it better themselves....
Very thoughtful video. I've run primarily FateCore over the past couple years, for two different groups, and I've improved substantially at teaching the system. However, I never nailed down that core idea you stated in this video that Fate rewards the creation of narrative. Well done!
bristle at your description of GURPS as “dated”. This is mainly due to the implication that the “modern” approaches to RPG design are necessarily *better*. To be frank, I find FATE’s foundational mechanic of Aspect-invocation for Narrative manipulation to detract from its ability to serve as a *Roleplaying* game. Characters don’t see their worlds in terms of Aspects to be invoked, so any decision to invoke them is done on a meta-game level that divorces the player from the perspective of their character, thereby working against the very thing I hope to achieve in playing an RPG.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with its existence as an option, although I can’t deny wishing that FATE and games taking a similar view of the role of narrative would label themselves as something other than an RPG.
I think D&D is more of a game that models drama and fiction more than it tries to model any kind of verisimilitude. If you watch a movie, it often doesn't matter whether one dude has a piercing weapon or a bludgeoning weapon (or even a weapon at all), unless there's some special thing in the story like he wields the sword Exmagical or something. And Fate incorporates a bit more of player as co-writer or director, not just actor, so Meta isn't as taboo (and actually can be encouraged).
It's just a different style. Not everyone is used to that style, and some even find it so different that it can be mentally jarring. However, it can be a different flavor of fun experience too.
GURPS is so wrapped up in enumerating every single aspect of play, that it loses sight of what a RPG should be. You have to analyze all the math to see what a character/vehicle/world etc is all about. Some people may like it, but I can't see how it can provide a character-based perspective.
I'm reminded of learning to play Scion 2.0 - 'Conditions' function very much similarly Aspects in Fate, where they can be 'called' to some benefit or effect, or even to accept some dramatic penalty to give narrative momentum to the group. But our group of players was a bunch of D&D/Pathfinder people, and the idea that even something as simple as 'getting hit' didn't so much mean losing health levels as much as it meant 'gaining an injury condition' which could be used in similar ways, was absolutely foreign to the group, and took a lot of getting used to. Many of the systems seem to take inspiration from Fate-like Aspects where they are narrative elements that are invoked or called upon in different ways for various benefits - when I noticed this early on, I was like "This, this is how things work in this game. Create conditions, call on then for benefits, be epic-story-narrative-awesome." My character had a power from her pantheon that let her create a Title for someone and invoke it for enhancements or complications primarily to social rolls, but also to some mundane tasks, and a couple of the D&D-arrivals thought it was broken as heck because it seemed like I could do so much with it... and I was like "This is how this system works, this is just one way to do that sort of thing." The way improvement is related to accomplishing or progressing on (or failing at) Deeds and Goals was another big one - the more you understand what your character, and the group as a whole, wants to accomplish narratively, the better the group will be at not only doing it, but getting XP from it.
The system does an okayish job at explaining this weirdness, I feel, but it also has that lack of self-awareness of how weird these narrative-mechanics are, so it doesn't give them quite as much clear explanation as might be needed.
Fate, though? It made my head hurt the first time I tried to get into it... I couldn't understand how to get things done in any reasonable way just from the descriptions, until I was fiddling with some Dresden Files game stuff and it suddenly sort of 'clicked' while I was looking over their magic system, which (naturally, like everything else) focuses on applying specific kinds of Aspects to people and situations and areas and such, and gives a little more structure to how much effect those can have.
Wow this video is a week old and i'm finding it now? Awesome! I'm trying to learn the game but there's not a lot of Fate content on the internet. I like your opinion on the system and as far as i know, i agree with everything. I hope you'll make other Fate content, thanks a lot! :)
I will likely be doing a short series on fate core in the very near future! Stay tuned!
cant be sure but the text blurb snuck in at 7:55 is "INT is their dump stat", referencing how he's talking about how D&D fighters are spoiled by the system. do with that what you will
The thing I've always said about FATE, is that it's what actual DnD fans want to play. Most people I know don't like combat in DnD and want to just tell a cool story, whcih is what FATE is perfect for.
Genesys is also an incredible system for narrative play. Just getting into Fate for a Bleach rpg adaptation and your videos are a pretty solid start
I disagree that dungeon coach (in particular) is trying to make dnd 5e something it isn’t. I homebrew extremely similar to him. It’s about using 5e as what it is but better. Keeping he theme/feeling and core gameplay but adding in a few homebrew or ironing out a few specific rules that could be much better.
It’s about keeping it heroic high fantasy with potential for horror; levels and spells and spell levels and classes, etc BUT seeing issues or a lack of clarity/specificity in particular areas that were left to vague or ‘up to the DM/GM’.
I love heroic high fantasy and all the core aspects that make dnd what it is! But for example the crafting system is unusable in 5e it’s ridiculous and slower than real world crafters! I love 5e but (for example) added in homebrew for falling object damage (based in the size and wt. of the object and the distance it falls) how is that ‘seeking another system’ it’s not.
I’m adding homebrew IN for things left vague/unfinished (up to the DM) and/or fixing 5e rules that are bad (like the crafting as is)
Likewise finding systems to quickly craft custom monsters or alter a monsters stat block to make them more challenging is NOT me seeking a different system but more optimally using the current system. Understanding it best.
So I think you misread some peoples issues and goals. The dungeon coach has never seemed to be looking for a tostada non dnd experience to me just optimizing and improving 5e!
I’m also working on a 5e compatible third party book. It’s meant to improve, compliment and add to dnd 5e NOT turn it into another system/game. I’m adding lore, adventures, homebrew rules, a whole bestiary, new spells, magic items and many d% and other random dice charts.
To add to the game/compliment and give options for rules that feel (off or unfinished) alternate rules. For specific issues.
Not to change the whole game!
Ok rant over.
Sorry for the rant I just feel there are those who should look into other systems/TTRPGs and those who just want to add/tweak.
If I want another game I’ll get/play it or as I’m the type make it myself. Actually I am working on two other custom TTRPGs….
It sounds like Fate might be good if presented better, sounds like a massive headache to understand the way it’s presented now.
Good video overall, thanks.
I’m leaving my rant as it’s honestly how I feel but please don’t think I’m to upset or anything I just wanted to explain.
Interesting. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'd holy disagree with you. And please note that my videos are also in some ways a bit rhetorical.
That being said, the dungeon coach shared this video in his discord and agreed with it.... 🤣
@@DungeonMasterpiece Well I suppose I can only speak for myself then... Still you have many great points in the video and I learned a lot about Fate (which I didn't know almost anything about before). I still stand by what I said there is a distinction between improving D&D and using another 'more appropriate' TTRPG system to the style/world or gameplay you'd prefer.
I feel like smoothing out rough edges in a rule system, adding rules that were lacking and adding to a game is different to needing an entirely different game system to express a world that is not a normal D&D style world.
I feel like I have homebrewed rules to Every game I've played to smooth out rough edges or fill in gaps. Its just adding to the game and customizing it, that's all.
One of the two TTRPGS I'm currently working on is more directly D&D inspired and uses most of the core concepts but is different enough (in far too many ways) so that it HAS to be its own thing and not a super detailed homebrew mod to 3.5 or 5e, etc.
The other is very different and is far more of a worldbuilding game.
Oof, you're right ... I just turned around to look at my FATE collection and I see ... System Toolkit, Horror Toolkit, Space Toolkit ... and no Fantasy Toolkit? Checked online and one does not even exist. I do have the Freeport Companion, but that is setting specific as opposed to a tool for GMs to build their own fantasy worlds and systems. Weird that they flat out avoided making a toolkit for, BY FAR, the most popular RPG genre. Way to be different, Evil Hat, I guess.
Yeah, I still don't get it...
I invoke fallen bookcase and what happens? Who rolls? Rolls what? Against what? What's going on???
I got into call of cthulhu immediately, d&d5e no problem, Dark Heresy easy, anything from world of darkness also easy. Fate? I'm completely lost and confused. If I have to spend and absurd amount of time doing research about the rules that should be explained in the core book then it's really not worth it. Make it compelling so people will actually want to get into it and not be blocked right from the start.
Exactly. It's a very loosey goosey system with terrible explanations that I was only able to figure out after trying to play it for 3 months. And I'm seldom the dumbest person in the room.
@@DungeonMasterpiece There we see the problem. Most players do not want to learn a new system, because they don't find learning a new system fun. DnD is like English in a way, a lingua franca that is consistent and stable. Sure, each edition or homebrew might be a different dialect, but at the core of the system it's a shared language on how things work.
@@f14uubercat the system learning thing isn't as big a problem as you'd expect. Nobody complains when learning traveler, savage worlds, or call of Cthulhu, which are starkly different from dnd
"in a world where (crap) is understood to be normal..."
I've honestly found Fate Accelerated to have been more influential to my gaming than Fate Core, mainly because of Approaches.
Also, talking about "creating aspects" and "invoking aspects" is so freakin' jargony! Creating an aspect is just interacting with something in your environment to your advantage, so just talk about interacting with the environment instead of "creating and invoking aspects."
I have been running and playing Fate for 10 years. "Like D&D" is a thing I hear all the time. I also see regularly the pressure to turn it into a version of D&D. You have good points, and I wonder if a good Fantasy clone wouldn't be useful. The issue is as a Fate GM aspects and the tools provided make it quite easy to run that game without yet another world book to purchase. I keep playing and running Fate in large part due to it's narrative strength, Toolkit nature, and flexibility. I don't know if a D&D type world book would sell, however with the licencing being the way it is it would not be a major issue for a publisher to attempt.
I'm sure you know the Freeport Companion is a fine semi-conversion that feels more like D&D/Pathfinder, but I've found that trying to ease d20 players into Fate by making it more like D&D tends to make the experience more frustrating. It doesn't address the necessary shift in perspective that makes Fate a great system, so it winds up highlighting situations that feel familiar but can't be addressed in familiar ways.
I love the concepts behind the mechanics but they're just to spindly and clumsy to appeal to me. I really require more crunch to be satisfied with how I'm defined in the game. But I also know a lot of gamers who love that narrative flow in their games and they try to get it awkwardly in games much to heavy for their preference.
I've played Fate for quite a while and I generaly liked the system, but it've become a real masterpiece when I played with dedicated world called Stronghold: Song of heroes (that's my translation, i don't think it was ever published in english; it is originally called in polish Twierdza: Pieśń Bohaterów). The addition of lore-building book (about 350 5A-size pages) which clarifies what your character can or can't do and spares a lot of time, which would be wasted on meaningless arguments about rules while playing Fate, plus in general, world created in Twierdza: Pieśń Bohaterów is pretty fun and consistent.
Now I want to buy fate. Sounds amazing.
It's phenomenal. Combat is like a game of 21 with building and countering aspects. keep that in mind as you play.
Fatecore has the same issues as a lot of non-dnd systems. Any Fate character feels like they are 90% defined at the first level, which means it is hard for characters to grow and change through a large campaign. The leveling system makes it hard to numerically differentiate different kinds of creatures, which makes encounters feel way too apple-to-apple. In fact the entire system is designed to produce characters with similar numerical distributions regardless of player intent, which mitigates player specialization/diversity. Additionally, the advantage system creates a situation where battles can be planned and executed in a very deterministic manner, which mitigates the potential chaos of the story.
You can have that opinion. Though I think that D&D lacks in the ability to develop specific character concepts because there's so little variety at level 1 and everyone has to mechanically level up and gradually shift themselves to being mechanically more like the character type they envisioned in the first place. That's actually what drew me away from D&D into Fate, is I kept having character concepts in D&D that just didn't work in the class system. (I found 4E actually more friendly than 3rd or 5th in that regard).
Fate characters are encouraged to change, but the change is narratively (and their Aspects), not strictly becoming more powerful (which they can do as well).
Now, it is easy for a GM to have a bunch of enemies that feel basically the same, except maybe some different Aspects. I would say that the Adversary Toolkit helps a LOT with better guidance on making enemies seem more varied.
I'm not sure I understand the criticism of similar numerical distribution. Doesn't point-buy in D&D act in a very similar way (and most D&D games I've played in the last 20 years have used point-buy). Diversity isn't just their stats, but their Aspects and Stunts. It's possible to have 2 characters that are very similar mechanically but very different narratively, or 2 characters very similar narratively but different mechanically.
@@groovydecoy366 I am very used to DND 3.5e where there was much more mechanical differentiation between builds, especially as characters got into the higher levels. Also, I am very not used to point buy, it has a very strong normalizing effect on stats that i don't enjoy. The issue i have with the standardized stat array is that it makes most of the characters feel like different "genres" of the same build rather than entirely distinct entities.
For example, in dnd 3.5e your average mage will invest all of their resources in pushing their casting stat as high as possible and will give very little attention to equipment or other stats, whereas a monk will need a bunch of stats to fully take advantage of their build, but basically no equipment, and a rogue will often end up having a bag of tricky items to facilitate their core strategy. The aspects determine the flavor of the numbers, but the numbers beneath them largely remain the same.
As for your first point, I think that is something that will depend from person to person, but I feel like if i want to have a fully created character when I start an DND campaign, i should just start at a higher level. What i like about DND is the idea of having a character who starts out very blank and is largely defined by their experiences in the campaign. I think that makes campaigns more immersive and gives the characters a sense of history that is lacking in other systems that lay out their characters immediately.
Anyways, thanks for the detailed response, I love thinking about RPG systems and what makes people like or dislike them.
I still don't know why I should play FATE from this though. You mention that a bunch of DMs are frustrated with 5e and position this as the solution but I have no idea if they're frustrated with the same things I'm frustrated with, nor how FATE can help. I can knock over a bookshelf in 5e too.
Are you assuming that all ttrpgers are only familiar with D&D? Fate has a lineage and a community along with lots of other narrative-focused ttrpgs.
The fact Fate Core has no good starting point can be highlighted with the fact I watched this video, and am more confused at the end.
You can get what you want from third party support.
For a D&D-style fate experience, try out Aperita Arcana.
I think that some Fate enthusiasts might say that someone who uses it "doesn't get it" in terms of what makes Fate "Fate-y," but it's a good place to start, I think.
Before Fate was Fate it was Fudge. And a really interesting take on epic fantasy using Fudge is Legends of Anglerre... which may still be in print...?
Also, also, the system used by Bethesda is based on a BRP d100 or RQ6/Mythras system.
If you have not checked out Mythras, you really should. You might dig it.
This was well thought out. Can't agree more about this system. Well done.
Wow, absolutely stellar video!!
I was watching this bad boy fully blown away by your script and polish. i didn't see your subscriber count earlier, but im SHOCKED to see you barely with only a thousand.
For the effort you put into this video alone, you're criminally underated.
Thank you for the kind words! Many TH-camrs around me have been very encouraging. They all say things like, "you just haven't blown up yet." So I'll keep pushing on!
I've would consider myself to be adept with FATE, I've been playing it since around 2010 and it is probably on of the best most versatile systems out there. But I totally agree that the language that the books use is often very vague and unhelpful when it comes to understand how to direct the players or even how to be a GM in the system. I got so frustrated with the system that I started playing a lot of Powered by the Apocalypse games, and that system really paints just how much FATE has fallen behind in the narrative driven universal RPG market.
Which sucks because I love FATE to death, I love how when it's played well it can both mechanically and organically bring out some of the best story telling that you'll ever hear in a game. It's just such a shame to see people constantly beating at the wall that is D&D to tell stories that aren't driven by that old War Game wheel.
I'm here for better FATE PR, I want EvilHat to really up the notch on bringing new players into the system because all those games that people want to play by hacking D&D could be done SO MUCH better in FATE.
A little more than a month ago i participated in a 5 session arc of the Dresden Files(using the old "fate System" not Dresden accelerated) and it was awesome, much more cinematic than the few others system I've played, I was very pro this guy running "Dresden files " because he has run it in the past and is familiar with Fate and the Dresden lore/books, but mainly because I saw this very video months before and it made me curious, thanks for the content Baron
I'm glad you gave fate a try!!
@@DungeonMasterpiece me too, man, me too. And truthfully i will say after rewatching this video I think I agree with "fate" system is what many are looking for when "they" feel like d&d/5e needs to be hacked for more cinematic play/ is missing something
Truth be told, in 5th edition D&D Int is THE dump stat for everyone but a wizard. There is very little mechanical advantage of having high Int. This is in stark contrast to 3rd, where Int was one of the more important stats.
My biggest gripe with Fate is that I could never get to grips with how the game both wants you to invent things on the fly (We are in a lab, so I'm going to throw the wizard's own potions at him, these thugs had been recently in a gang war with our employer, so I use that to intimidate them) and at the same time mechanically reduces that creativity to simply granting you a +2 bonus to a die roll. Which means that all I am doing is thinking up new excuses to grant myself that stackable bonus.
Fate also lacks any way other than these aspects to mechanically flavor your world. In Warhammer magic is finicky and extremely dangerous to the user, and the rules for spellcasting reinforce that. Even the best archmage is just one mishap away from getting eaten by demons. In World of Darkness, in simplest terms, you need to constantly manage interlinked resources (one of which is directly responsible for the character's power), and if you ever go too much in either direction the game will end for you. Something like this, that is to say a mechanic strongly reinforcing the narrative, is pretty much impossible to replicate in Fate. Its sandbox nature is working against it here.
Perhaps I am wrong there, as I haven't played the system much (and only in the Fate Accelerated version at that). I would be more than happy for a Fate primer when you decide to make it eventually.
I've heard your biggest gripe from others too, but it's not something that bothers me. I actually like that there a generalized universal mechanics for creating bonuses if simply for no other reason as it helps move the game along faster rather than having people trying to figure out the most optimal advantage (Aspect) and having additional subsystems to address certain kinds of mechanical advantages.
That said, there are optional rules in the Toolkit address this very subject called "Scaled Invocations" which distinguishes between "Tenuous invocations", "Relevant invocations", and "Perfect invocations".
You can have a look in the SRD: fate-srd.com/fate-system-toolkit/aspects#scaled-invocation
It's a rule that I've considered using myself. I'm a little curious what you think.
It's a narrative game. Not mechanics heavy. It's one of the best yes and systems. If you want stacking bonus and large number look to another system. The issue most people have with fate is they try to play it like dnd. It's a completely different way of playing. It's comparing apple to oranges. Yes they are both fruit but the similarities end there.
@@groovydecoy366 The scaled invocation sounds pretty good to me and addresses the gripe I had. The re-roll/add/set system will need to be checked in multiple plays, but so far I like it.
(I haven't watched the full video yet so don't mind me, if I'm saying something weird)
I'm leading a campaign that sets in a magical wild west setting. And the problem I'm facing is, that it doesn't seem that my players really understand how magic works in that world. I wanted them to-if they wanted to use magic-to choose a type of magic and put it down as a stunt. I'm not using FATE points for my games and use other things to limit the use of the magic. Usually it works like this: they tell me what they want to do and then I give them a skill they have to roll and that determines how well it went. Mostly the characters take one psychological stress after using magic. Or they only have a limited amount of "spell slots" per day depending on the thing. For example one character had a magic gun that could hit all enemies standing in a row with full damage and enemies next to them for half damage but it over heats when he uses it. I try to give a logical explanation for the stunts and magic why it just doesn't work all the time.
Flying characters take physical stress depending on the time they're flying and the maneuvers they do because flying exhausts them.
I love FATE for it's flexibility but as a GM you need to make so many rules up yourself and balance everything out.
Don't get me started on how my weapon mechanics work. I have a giant sheet with stats for all kinds of weapons and somehow we manage to still add to the list and me having to make up new stats on the go and balance them out later.
This video covers one of the things that infuriates me about people "explaining" the failings of Fate Core. Fate Core cannot compete with D&D. If you want a D&D like game, play D&D. I think that's why Fate Core supplements don't cover western medieval fantasy. Just play D&D. It would be like selling Toyotas by constantly showing how much they can be like Fords. People are going to think Toyotas are inferior to Fords and wonder why they just don't buy a Ford instead.
Don't get me wrong. Fate Core does have weaknesses. Want to create a character in D&D? Pick a class. Roll or buy appropriate stats. Roll HPs and gold. Write down your first level abilities. Done. It's a no-brainer. Want to create a Fate Core character? Find a high concept. What can it be? Anything. If I can't use stats as a crutch to define my character, what do I use? Aspects. Great, what can they be? Anything. OK, I get to chose skills, maybe better than just being handed stuff like D&D, but the skill list is a little sparse. Oh, the gm can add skills? Great, like what? Anything. How about my special abilities? OK, they are called stunts. Cool. What can they be? Anything. And there's "extras," things not covered by other rules... maybe a sword or a vehicle? What can they be? Anything. Are we seeing the problem yet? One of Fate Core's greatest strengths is also it's greatest weakness. It is a VERY flexible system. So many things aren't and can't be defined by the rules without losing that flexibility.
The biggest character generation problem for my players is stunts. No matter how I explain them and give examples, they would rather pick from the 20 page list I made using almost every Fate Core book out there than try to create their own.
And my biggest challenge as a player/gm? It was unlearning nearly 50 years of D&D. It took me nearly a year to get comfortable with the Fate Core mechanics, but now that I am, it's great. Currently, I'm playing in a pulp era game set in the days of the Great Depression. My character is the Howard Hughes of zeppelins. He wants to show up Doc Savage and reveal him as a charlatan. His zeppelin has been electrified by none other than Nikola Tesla, whom he calls "friend." His companions are a femme fatale mobster's daughter along with a pugilist wanted for killing a man in the ring. I can't imagine a better role-playing system for our game. 😀
I know it's been a while since you uploaded this video but I wanted to let you know that this inspired me to dust off my FATE books and do a FATE Condensed hack (Dungeons Of FATE Condensed) for the FATE Accelerated hack (Dungeons Of FATE) for D&D.
I can credit Will Wheaton's Tabletop episode for my interest in Fate. Seeing it played went a long way towards making it "click" for me. It's a shame there's not more AP content out there for it because seeing it happening, it's rather intuitive, but reading about it, less so.
You are absolutely right. The problem with Fate is in my opinion the understanding of the game system not the game system itself.
I don't think I've ever seen a RPG book go about explaining itself as "this is how D&D does it, we're doing this instead", games like Star Wars d6 or Vampire, or even did GURPS ever mention levels or memorizing spells? so while I understand the sentiment, this seems more appropriate for some sort of "D&Der guide to Fate" or something like that. If someone would write that, it would be useful.
Ok, to be fair, I've seen one book do it. It was Palladium's Rifts. They kept saying stuff like "20+ levels like that other game does is stupid! my game has 15 levels which is clearly superior!" or "that other game has 9 alignments! haha what dums dums, my 14 or whatever alignemts are obviously the way to go for more realisms!"
The difference is how similar they are too typical dnd mechanics allows them to not worry about it's with Star wars or vampire, the force and magic is pretty well described how it works. These issues aren't actually issues.
In fate, it's "do whatever you want." With no guidelines on how.
Would love to hear your thoughts on Savage Worlds. (Also, do not feel GURPS as that dated, especially given it's flexibility...but that's just me)
Nice review of why FATE is so unique. It indeed is a "love or hate" thing. I think it's a great system but you need the right group to really make it work beautifully. I really encourage people to give it a try, since it's a completely different experience. My "criticism" is that, like Savage Worlds, FATE ends up taking the game into some specific directions (heroic, cinematic, etc) that are not so easy to avoid. The Toolkit helps a lot with this, but then it gets more and more complicated, and it will not necessarily give you the vibe you want, so I guess forcing FATE to be something it's not is like forcing D&D to be something it's not.
However, I disagree with the whole "GURPS is dated and this is why it failed and opened the doors for the brilliance of FATE" idea. It's true that GURPS suffers from not making it obviously clear how simple it is, but it's a lie to say that people get away from it because "they don't want to have to read complicated supplements just to be able to play the game they want". The basic rules are very basic and the Basic Module itself goes way, way, way beyond the basics. Even GURPS lite (which is free to download) can be pared down if the players so choose.
Anyway, I'm not trying to tell people to play FATE instead of GURPS, I just think that in this age when we have so many cool games to try, people should be encouraged to try more things instead of being driven away from possible options. It's not the crunchiness that drives some people away from systems, it's reviews and comments from people that make other systems seem to be something they're not...
This is why GURPS is still alive and strong, because it can actually be many things, because you create the system you want. That doesn't mean it doesn't have its favored styles, but it it certainly and unquestionably one of the most flexible systems out there and I like it very much.
Learning a new RPG system is a little like learning a new language. It helps if the new language is similar to one you already speak. So, what I did to move my group from D&D to Fate Core was to teach them Dungeon World first. It's enough like D&D to help provide a familiar framework, but it has some elements that are very similar to Fate Core. It helped my players get familiar with the idea of inventing and invoking narrative bits as mechanics. After Dungeon World, it was much easier for them to wrap their heads around Fate.
I have refused to play Fate-Core because one of its main designers was a jerk to me on IRC back when it was called FUDGE.
woah... that's a 7 year grudge. Time and forgiveness heals. I'm sure the designer has matured quite a bit since then. I know I'm saddened by the obnoxious asshole I was as a person 7 years ago for sure. Now I'm a much better type of obnoxious asshole :D . Perhaps an olive branch is in order?
I don't think the blatant stubborness of most D&D-only players should be blamed on the writers of Fate. Or any other game. Appealing to their practices and tastes is a good marketing move, but is not a design need, nor a creative duty.
I agree leaving "normal" players out is not the most brilliant commercial strategy to widen the market for the product... but I don't think agreeing with the normal is the only, or the best, much less the right way to do creative work. If marketing should always mark the limits for any innovative endeavor... well, then a lot of the innovation will have to be cut short and dumbed down to accomodate stiff habits and stagnant stereotypes.
IMO, the reason FATE won't touch stuff related to D&D is because it DOESN'T WANT TO. Which, IMO, is a perfectly valid reason. D&D players already have D&D. Other games don't have any responsability to cater to them.
I'm really sad that 'crunch' has become a dirty word with modern gamers. Seen as dated or detrimental, somehow. I love the verisimilitude of older systems. I love the granularity of plugging my character into clearly defined rules, the physics of his world. The excitement, replayability, and pride in tweaking, building, and system mastery. Modern game design seems to be going in the direction of having less and less of the G pillar of RPG and leaning more into the RP. You can roleplay without a game. You can game without roleplay. But, you lose something magical when you start leaning into one more than the other.
It's because a lot of modern groups aren't really interested in playing a game. They're just trying to find an excuse to get with some friends for a night every few months to get drunk and talk.
Not sure what's "magical" about spending two hours to game out a 30-second combat, but hey, you do you.
I agree with your video. I've read Fate, played it a little, but not enough to pontificate on it. I would like to play more but have no idea how to get my players to agree. I would love to see a version of the rule book that you wrote for example.
I would like to see your take on the Amber Diceless RPG. The novels are great (I would argue they are among the best fantasy/sci-fi out there) and the RPG has some fine ideas. But there's something deeply unapproachable and difficult about the game. Too much of it is very vague. And yet something about it still draws me in.
As some who played Warhammer fantesy, Open legand and DnD, I got confused when I started learning this game, everything made little to no sense compared to how others system works
I have played one game of Fate Core and found it fun to play. Only complaint I had initially was how do I make a character and how do I play? Once I got used to the system I had fun, playing with my brothers and their rpg group building a Firefly inspired Galaxy and doing random jobs for fun. Hell we sold sand to a space station that makes "Glass Steal" and is made out of there see through and thin material that is as strong as steal. Literally improve on my part when the GM ask me to create a contract of my character to sell out high quality sand.
I don’t want to see Baron break up with someone… the most brutal “I love you but we need to see other people “ ever 😂
This might be my favorite comment that I've ever seen on my channel since I started it. Thank you for posting this.
@@DungeonMasterpiece I’m just glad we don’t need to see other TH-camrs 😮💨🥰
I picked up FATE Core a few years ago, looks great but I couldn't find the "easy button" to try and set up a quick game to demo for my group.
I'll try it sometime, just need to find a model for what I'd like to run. Or figure out how to do it myself.