Kitchen exhaust and make up air all under one hood at NS Builders Lake Drive Custom
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- We jump into the technical details behind our Lake Drive Custom kitchen hood. It operates as our kitchen exhaust and as our make up air. We worked with Ross Trethewey from TE2 Engineering and Steffan Tosi from East Coast Comfort to engineer a hood system that performed with efficiency and blended seamlessly into the kitchen design. Tune in!
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An interesting test would be a smoke flow test from outside to inside to see how the air actually moves. My guess would be it's wrapping around much closer to the hood since you don't really have forced air feed. The makeup air ideally should be below the surface of the range, imo. This allows a more laminar flow pattern.
The same contractor has a smoke test video and the result is exactly what you predicted. I'm not sure if this is the best design. Nonetheless, work quality is top notch.
@@thaivu3324 Interesting. Thanks for letting me know. I guess air makeup is better than none and you'd at least contain the air to keep it from changing the inside temp/humidity much.
@@thaivu3324 Where is that smoke test video?
I wish these types of systems were made part of the building code. I'm working with a builder and based on my experience so far, I guarantee if I were to ask for something like this, they'll try to charge me $5k to add it in. Looks like I'll just be opening the kitchen window and letting all the hot/cold air into the house.
th-cam.com/video/u2uVaTMXd_8/w-d-xo.html
This is akin to watching a professional athlete. It all looks so simple and easy. What you don’t see is all the work that was done out of sight to make it possible. A very clean and elegant solution. Thanks for sharing the details.
It looks simple once it is all installed, but like you said, there is so much planning that goes into designing a "simple" kitchen hood! Nice work by you and the team!
This is the perfect solution. I have been working on make up air for a while and this is great. Thank you.
I'd be very interested to see what happens if you do a pressure test on that house, and see if enough air comes in through the hood. From what I've been learning, I think the makeup air won't be enough if you only have passive make up air. The air will come in through your hood, but the vent will depressurize the entire house, not just the cooking area. So, air can enter the house by any vented means, such as a chimney or the furnace vents. Yes, the hood vent will allow air in, but will it be enough if only passive ventilation? Can you comment on that?
I think you are correct, however there is something to be said or 'valued CFM' added when the point of return is 'point blank' near the point of supply. Think of it this way. IF the loop was closed, then the CFM from the hood (going out of the house would equal that of the CFM coming in (image the dumb contractor closed the loop by accident). However as we know, it is not a 'closed' loop and there is a 'distance' between the two. This distance can be modeled (or though of) as a 'gap' in the closed loop. Or closed loop with a section removed (say 6"); how many CFM's are lost in that gap through inefficiencies? That would be the 'lost' CFM's needed to be forced into the system to obtain equilibrium.
Without instrumentation, I'm beginning to think if A) the point of venting and outside air volume are close enough and B) the lost efficiency is less than 400 CFM one would be covered/ in compliance. NOTE: The 400 CFM value is from the IBC code where if less than 400 CFM, a system is not required in the first place. Cleary the code is not eluding that the pressure is neutral, but rather explicitly indicating if it is 400 or less, we (the authors of the building code/IBC) don't consider it material. That tells me that if the amount 'lost' from a 'non-closed' loop is 400 CFM or less, all is good.
I'm starting to think the other systems (with the fans and Heafy price tags) are using the 'zero' pressure result somewhat of marketing hype since the code clearly indicates a 400CFM spot at the start line.
Very cool. To take it to the next level, installing a differential pressure sensor and putting a controller on the motor would ensure the volume of air in the space is balanced.
Interesting ideas. Two things may be overlooked. First, the area of the exhaust & inlet hoods look to be less than 10" equivilent. Second, a passive makeup should be larger than the discharge (pressurized) duct. Have you encountered problems due to either of these things?
Nick, I really like this concept and it makes so much sense to mimic the commercial kitchen solution to cooking related smoke and odors. Can you give us an update on how this is working for the home owners? Would you suggest this as your method of choice for future high end projects?
I also want an update on this style being that others state the make up air should be lower and away and disburse along a longer area
Bump, going down the kitchen exhaust/MUA rabbit hole
Hello, that is a great build! Most people do no consider the replacement of exhausted air with fresh new supply air. However, I would like to recommend you use an ERV unit to still help temper the make up air. This will prevent the cold/freezing incoming air from causing condensation on the beautiful hood you made.
Do you have a filter on the incoming air? Are you worried the wood siding is going to get discolored by the grease the will be in the exhaust air? Love the work you guys do!!!
I assume the home has been properly air sealed and blower door tests confirm this. (I've enjoyed watching this channel so I know the answer is yes) Now My question is with the vent blowing out at around 1200 cfm, how are you sure you're getting in the equal amount of air from the open end system? I've seen Matt Risinger & Corbett Lunsford on their channels show that you need a powered fan to induce the fresh air into the home as well, if not you're still getting negative pressure. Did you test for this??
Love this video. As we build homes tighter we have to think through mechanical ventilation or we won’t be able to enjoy the benefits of a high performance home. Great job 👍🏼
It sounds like a well thought out system. I wonder how well it turned out. In the past I owned a range hood that sent about 20% of the exhaust back to outlets in the front of the hood to accomplish just what he showed here in the motion diagram, that being, to create a rolling effect of wind between the hood and the range. It didn't work. And it was particularly problematic when using the oven or the front burners. The house would smoke up. And because that 20% was recirculated it lowered the CFM pulling power. I have the feeling that if this system here works at all, that it would be when the hood is run at full power. I believe that make-up air for a range hood is best accomplished in having the make-up air come from an outlet located beneath the range. With that set-up all of the smoke and heat being produced by the cook top as well as the oven is pulled away, and there is sufficient make-up air introduced.
Nick and Ross, well done with this. This is what I have been wanting to do on upcoming projects, but haven't done one yet. Keep up the great work.
Great execution! You mentioned that this method eliminates the need for a heater; however, there are concerns about colder climates in the Midwest and how effective this system would be without one.
Most building codes require make up air on any hood that pulls more than 400 CFM. Thats a genius idea of how to bring enough air in and keep it visually pleasing. Most homeowners down here in Fl look at you like your crazy when you tell them all this when they remodel the kitchen and they want a new hood.
Stone Home Services Inc I am in Florida. Had the genius idea of remodeling the kitchen and was trying to get a commercial strength hood fan, that is, until I found out what a mess I would create sucking all dirt from the outside, walls and ceiling with negative pressure. It is a old house 1990 so the insulation is nasty. I love this idea but it doesn’t look to be perfect yet.
@@marcelosantana9311 what did you end up doing?
@@aikidoboynj Soooooo, if I tell you that my renovation has been stuck for the past year would you believe? Don’t know what happen but everything stalled in place. I am actually starting to look to get someone to install the ductwork for me in the next month or so. I love the idea of this channel but not sure if I can get a custom hood like that easily.
@@marcelosantana9311 haha yes I believe you because I am having a remodel as we speak and I'm just learning about this mua bs as well. It has been very difficult for me to find a hood insert model that complies and in which I can have the motor installed in the attic as opposed to an all in one unit (too cut down on noise).
The one I found on amazon is up to 800 cfm on max setting but i need to get this done fast and I may just get it anyways and just use the lower speed settings. I found some braun units but they look like trash and the reviews on them seem to back up that opinion.
The inspectors/code people around me allowed the previous owners to sell the this house to me with a nylon-like tubing, not even metal venting behind the old hood so I'm not so worried about getting pinged by these code fuckwads.
@@aikidoboynj make sure that you add a silencer. It reduce considerable the noise. Hoping to get the ductwork in the next couple months. I haven’t decided between a in-line or roof mounted blower yet. My biggest issue is noise since I am not planning to use gas. I like this design but hard to get anyone that works with make up air.
Great to see more residential builders taking kitchen air quality seriously. I'm a little skeptical of in-hood make-up-air though - it can "short-circuit" or cause the exhaust plume to spill, reducing capture efficiency. Did you run CFD simulations, or do you plan to do a smoke test? It would be awesome if you guys did some verification with a smoke source and a particle counter.
They are simply doing a commercial compensating hood as allowed by code. “ Compensating hoods are those having integral (built-in) makeup air supply. The makeup air supply for such hoods is generally supplied from: short-circuit flow from inside the hood, air curtain flow from the bottom of the front face, and front face discharge from the outside front wall of the hood. The compensating makeup airflow can also be supplied from the rear or side of the hood, or the rear, front or sides of the cooking equipment. The makeup airflow can be one or a combination of methods”
This is correct. It has been proven over and over again that this system does not work. It is just the easiest way to meet code. I doubt this system will get much serious use so its fine but if you want to see how a quality commercial system works check out something like the Halton Capture Jet system. They even have the Schlieren imaging to prove it.
Not sure how efficiently it’ll work, at least it’s better then no makeup air.
With new homes build, HRV units should have a feature that is dedicated to only bringing in cold air to be warmed up by the furnace and is routed to a duct that could be placed above the cook or under the stove which will serve as a supply to the exhaust above.
@@mzshan79 I have done this many times it requires a few extra relays and dampers but it can be done and is amazing!
@@devinpaddock2569 What ERV are you using for a 1200 CFM hood?
That house turned out amazing. Awesome work!!!
You’re not pulling 1,200CFM through a 10” duct. 400CFM at best.
If you have 1200 CFM, the cold air won't have time to go all the way down before getting sucked up. It will get exhausted right away.
Brilliant solution!👍
Interesting episode Nick. I work for CaptiveAire Systems, this is our wheelhouse. We now have UL listed residential systems with fire suppression integrated. Pre-fabricated grease duct, chimney duct, and of course the hoods are becoming more and more popular in resi these days. I like your guys’ solution, I know your mechanical of choice is a sharp outfit from TOH. Next time hit us up for your project needs. Would be cool to see commercial grade system installed by a super competent outfit like yours.
Does captive air systems offer residential hoods to at have the integrated makeup air system like what they build here? That would be amazing and make it so much easier for your run of the mill contractors to install. Would just need the hvac guy to do the ducting runs and install the online blower then :)
smart to put the intake under an area protected area. it pro doesn’t have the capacity to suck i. rain water but some dampness will enter that duct, but since it’s under that a roof or porch over hang there’s not chance of it.
the shape of the vents would look much better if they were the same height as the siding and longer in shape to retain volume of cfm.
that’s a really elaborate hood vent, one nobody has ever seen fit a residence. nice job !!!
What specific type of damper was used to make an air tight seal on the intake
Wow, makes complete sense, never would have thought about replacing the air you are exhausting out.
In commercial kitchen that is the norm, however in new build homes they don’t consider this unless it’s a custom home and the owner had the intention and knowledge to overlook this feature.
However the challenge for us in North is getting tempered air in instead of cold air middle of January.
great video & great design /engineering, yet simple and eliminates a lot of equipment needed. Just one question.... you mentioned the backdraft shutter on the intake vent... is this a manual flap, or motorised & linked to the fan switch ?
That looks absolutely beautiful
Great job and video! We are Synergy Home Performance, and we spec them in every house we design.
Make-up air is used regularly for commercial and industrial applications from heating and cooling to fume exhausting and worker protection.
Clever, I just wish you powered the make-up air. I suspect if you measure the make-up delivered at the hood it will not be close to 1200. Also curious to see how much the house is depressurized relative to outside.
Thanks, best solution I've seen so far. Simplest too. Is the intake damper gravity or motorized?
Got the concept excellent description.
Awesome idea!! Thank you so much for sharing!!
Love the explanation, very useful information. Love this channel.
Cool concept! I have noticed that my fridge uses over 2.5 kwatts per month. Any chance some genius will create a cooncept to exchange heat between refrigerator and heat pump water heaters in the near future?
Great idea,however, are you filtering the fresh air you're bringing into the house? If not you're going to be introducing pollen and other unwanted particles into the cooking area.
This has always been an issue, even in older homes. What a critical and necessary airflow solution. My questions: is the damper electronically controlled and is the aperture of the baffle adjustable and paired with fan speeds? If so, how did you accomplish this, if not, how are you assuring the damper will open?
Very nice, great explanation with the overview Nick! Ken did a nice job on the hood, like the walnut grain matching on the miter wrap.
Amazing design
Thanks for the video. This is a great idea
all nice and beautiful but how will you going to clan the ducting system did you leave clean outs? did you use smooth duct? did you leave a pitch so the grease can be collected in one end? if the owners are heavy cookers in 1-2 years grease will start dripping (depending of what cooking they do). but great idea and it looks beautiful
Iclean grease ducts commercially. yeah they are pretty much only going to be cleaned as far as you can reach and eventually it will smell. because it cannot be cleaned. lol. In order to clean something like this properly you really need welded type 1 duct.
Have you tested how well its actually equalizing the pressure? I've seen some other videos showing that with a passive system you actually need a much larger intake to achieve a net neutral airflow.
Other question from that, have you done any testing with a smoke pen or something? If the intake isnt keeping up with the vent, is the make up air actually flowing down to the range and back up or just staying up high and not really helping to scoop any of the steam/smoke/etc?
I like the idea but see one major flaw, a 10" passive return duct with no fan will not make up any more than maybe 1/3 at best the air being pulled out by that exhaust fan.
Brilliant idea!
This is brilliant
I love this concept. I am limited to 100 amps @ 240v due to being offgrid an can’t afford the 6000 watts needed for an inline heater unless I seriously expand my already sizable battery and inverter setup..which I might do at some point, but why add more loads If you can engineer around it? Wish this was a commercially produced product.
I love your video. I see you use a mesh to keep birds out of the duct.
Nice design.
Nice job.
Can you speak to the performance of this set up now that it has been in use for a few years? Been trying to find the "best" approach to this for a while. I love the concept but would love to know if the MUA being so close ended up being OK
thats awesome!
Now that this make up air is installed and working, do you have an issue with flame disturbance when the system is on?
Awesome video.
Complete guide 😍
Based on the codes, make-up air is supposed to be at least 8 feet away from the hood.
What about a situation when you turn on a bath exhaust fan somewhere in the house. Wouldn’t it creat a draft in the kitchen when someone has a bath fan running?
Would the ERV provide that solution?
The damper is motorized so it opens on a motor that is controlled by the hood.
@NS Builders, I think they meant would you not have a similar backdraft scenario when using a bath fan exhaust, as it too, is trying to pull make up air? The mechanics of the kitchen set up are easily understood.
cmm170526 in that case, we are using an ERV to handle the bathroom exhaust and keeping the home balanced.
Bear with me, are you using the ERV as the sole device for humility mitigation in the baths? What about the dryer? I am in the process of designing my own home and trying to get a handle on proper ventilation.
im looking to install make up air system and was thinking in my head why cant i put the intake close to the exhaust this is exactly what i was thinking. My garage is the same wall as the fan so im good there. My question is how far should i place the intake from the exhaust 20ft ?
Absolutely love this. Do you think that this sys would work in reverse? In other words, what if the make up air was designed to come in from behind the exhaust?
Lovely work. 1) Does this have a blower on the make-up air duct also or is the air moved by the negative house pressure generated by the primary vent blower? 2) How much does the downdraft of the make-up air reduce the suction at the level of the range? Thanks, David - Dallas
No blower on makeup. Passive intake. We didn’t “measure” the reduction, if any
Do you do something for the dryer vent too?
Just get a condensing dryer...
I'm sorry to say, this is a hare brained idea. You're hoping that incoming air is going to drop down to the cook top before being sucked back out. I don't know what makes you think this is how it will work, but it won't. In reality, most of that incoming air is going right back out the exhaust without capturing anything.
You know, that might be true. I've seen this idea a couple of times today in vids and never is the author commenting on whether it works in reality or not. Smoke test at the very least ought to show what's happening.
Without a long duct distance and mechanical warming, how would condensation buildup be handled?
How about cleaning the ducts? Grease collection
This looks expensive. I need to do a ceiling which I would think complicates it all. I am planning a 48 inch dual fuel Wolfe range and it’s in a peninsula. The range requires an 1100 CFM and this is in a 210sf kitchen open to a much larger great room with vaulted ceiling. Is it possible it’s not required? I feel like there’s two different schools on that.
You guys are meticulous! I wondered if the intake air was passive or also inline blower and if you filter the air going in? May not be an issue where you live, but here (Nashville) we would suck in so much pollen, and other unpleasantries that I would have to filter entry air.
I wonder how grease clean up will be inside that duct sealed plenum?
The space at the top between the upper cabinets and the hood looks a bit strange.
Can't find the build video for the hood, mind throwing in a link?
You need to check out the Instagram feeds
Did you not have to temper your MUA supply?
Interesting idea... I just can't see the need for 1200 CFM for a home kitchen. Perhaps the occupants will never turn it up that high. I wonder how well this is going to work in hot/humid summers and frigid winters. If I had to design a system from scratch I'd probably just use an Aldes ZRT-I somewhere next to the range paired with an HRV/ERV and a recirculating range hood with some good filtering.
Had a 900 CFM hood from Zephyr even at its middle speed I couldn't smell burnt food standing right next to the stove. So it was very very efficient. Though everyone 3-4 houses down could smell it outdoors. . Thus I doubt if 1200 CFM is ever needed for a home kitchen. It's simply over kill by a long shot. Plus the capturing grease seems missing on this.
Fantech makeup air system would've eliminated the need for all of the extra details. Has a tempering system built right in.
why there are faucets above the stove
Would anybody be interested in a design where the fresh air is introduced upwards as a laminar flow streaming from along the edge of the top of the range, creating a wall of air that captures all the air particles created from cooking, and directs it towards the exhaust?
What brand inline fan used???
You’re definitely NOT bringing 1200 CFM back into the house just because your exhaust hood is advertising 1200 CFM out.
…. Physics is a bitch!… it is really really really really hard to move 1200 CFM through a 10 inch pipe with a fan let alone without one. To move that much air through a 10 inch pipe you have to overcome at least .7 inches water column plus the friction loss of the pipe elbows and the grill and exhaust hood and not many fans will create that…
make-up air required for: 1)composting toilet 2)shower exhaust 3)wood stove 3)kitchen. Easier to live in a tent or a drafty old house?
Point being?
Tent would certainly be cheaper but probably not easy or comfortable. These guys are achieving an extremely comfortable house with low energy bills.
@@NSBuilders I will build smaller and simpler from the get-go. Just enough.
You going to have a grease stain over the siding coming down . It happens to me when I install it in the siding wall
Thought the same thing. Will they do a follow up video concerning this issue? It's been ~4 years so far.
Not impressed. Did you consult an HVAC engineer to ensure you're not exhausting the make up air right back out? I'm sure a large percentage of it gets recirculated out. Also in-line blower sounds great for low noise but what happens when it needs to be serviced? You buried it in the soffit now you will have to tear up the garage ceiling to get to it.
Totally my thoughts
I've had an inline blower hidden in the soffit of my laundry for 15 years. Mine is a squirrel cage blower. Have never had any problems with it. There is no sensitive electronics in them, just a motor. So the 'when' you speak of is such a remote possibility, that I am comfortable cutting open my soffit in that eventuality.
@@rodstephens6612 Is it less noisy when it's inline? Would you say the benefits outweigh the negatives? My motor in the hood is covered with oil. Even if I clean the filters all the time some oil still gets through. It would be interesting to see how much oil gets on the inline motor.
@@rockys7726 Much quieter. Mine is 1400cfm and the only sound is the turbulence of he air thru the filter, no motor or fan sound at all. The quality of the filter mechanism is key. When I clean mine, I check the damper at the top of the hood. I don't see any oil deposits there, so I don't expect any further into the ducts. My hood has both a commercial style baffles as well as a secondary screen filter. They seem to combine to give me very good oil capture.
Hi. My contractor connected the vent metal pipe using Zip System black tape. Is that ok or should I be concerned that it might melt in time?
Contact the manufacturer of the Zip system. If it was used on a way that wasn’t designed you may or may not have a problem. Their product is designed to adhere to the Zip boards so it may sticks nicely now but overtime it may start to peeling. If is a easy access you can get him to come back or someone else to do the right way. I hate when the want to use what they have at hand instead of buying the correct material. Good luck and wouldn’t worry a lot but keep an eye.
@@marcelosantana9311 Thank you so much. I just replaced it
Any inline filter on that inbound system?
Wondering the same and if so, how is the filter changed?
Damn 1200 CFM. You won’t even be able to smell if the food is cooking lol.
Just the hood working. 25000 $
Seems to me that the make-up air at a 100% rate will disrupt the capture and containment of the exhaust air making this arrangement ineffective. How is this different from the concept of a commercial short circuit hood which has been proven to be ineffective. Some commercial hood systems do make use of replacement air in this manner but the percentage is no where near 100%. I'm not an expert but this looks good but may not work as well as hoped.
Thors Hammer: while it may seem like 1:1 the exchange rate will not be 100 because they have not chose to mechanically pressurize the inlet/return. Essentially, this will work as a vacuum where High rates of our flow, by the way 1200cfm is commercial grade, will take up and mix the inflowing air, heat, stem, orders, etc. and carry them out. Imagine the air flow as water current. Anything that makes contact with the current will be carried along the paths. My question is: have they kept the inlet and exhaust far enough apart and have they planned for natural wind patterns. Overall, though, this is a thoughtful design that I would love to add to my kitchens and baths.
@@charlesjohnson7222 I never thought of the air current influencing the exhaust in a way a solid surface would influence flow (Coanda Effect). Someone with a Flir thermal imager might be able to detect effluent breaching the hood boundary. Schlieren Images would also be interesting to see.1200 cfm is a lot of flow! (I envision the Elf Christmas movie where Will Ferrell sticks his face on the mail tube...or, a homeowner prior to going to an 80's Big Hair party getting her hair sucked up into the hood. Haha! Will the make-up air disrupt gas burners? May be best for induction cook tops. I am still suspect but intrigued by the set up. We need good HVAC geeks to do performance testing on these set-ups.
Waste of time ... what ends up is a "short-circuit" of the airflow. The fresh air coming in just gets sucked out through the exhaust ...
I'm pretty sure that fluid dynamics disagrees with you. It will pull the gases/particles from the range. Now that being said, there must be cold air leaking around the hood which I'm curious about. Also this doesn't balance the house pressure; pressure inside almost certainly drops causing air leakage to play some roll even though much smaller.
@@Niklaos : Look up any reputable MUA system design (by fantech or airscape) and you will not see this sub-standard and ineffective technique being used.
@@ginger-bread_man Oh I'm not arguing that it's an ideal solution. An airflow coming from under the stove would definitely be superior. All I'm saying is that it definitely doesn't do nothing and that it's probably efficient enough. The video should show a smoke test actually, that would have been interesting.
Nicolas GUILLAUME : The smoke test will reveal a short-circuit.
Rather have a zender system
instead thousand words - better to show 10 sec how smoke is gone
:)