Installing a 5-2-1 Hardstart
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ย. 2024
- Israel Air Conditioning & Heating LLC
Pineville, LA 71360
318-442-6657
israelacandheat...
We proudly service the Central Louisiana area including Rapides Parish, Grant Parish, Avoyelles Parish, Lasalle Parish, & Evangeline Parish.
the reason the inrush draw is higher than the compressor LRA is that the amp meter is reading the condenser fan and the compressor with its location. move the meter to the compressor common wire and you will get move accurate measurement
Good catch. I didn't notice.
That looks like a new unit as clean as it is, I've never seen one that is more than a year old with the electrical compartment that clean. You're a brave man touching those start cap terminals bare fingered w/o discharging it first.
The potential relay's contacts ( 1 and 2) are internally spring loaded in a closed position. Because of the spring tension on the relay contacts, the relay is position sensitive and must be positioned in the up position.
Yeah he got that all wrong
The devil is always in the details. Some folks just don’t pay attention though.
"The potential relay should be mounted with the mounting tab up. The capacitor should be mounted with the terminals up." per 5-2-1 insert.
yes.
Agree about the relay (gravity aided). In some units, it's so cramped for space you have to mount the cap horizontally.
I'm not sure why the capacitor position is important but the relay certainly is.
This yahoo chubby boy doesn't know what he's doing.. terrible video for his business.
Yes, this was not correctly installed, initially, as per 521 instructions. It’s correct now.
I believe the training video from 5-2-1 pointed out it didn't care about position but I know for fact that the one's used in refrigeration have a arrow that points the direction of install. Fine video and it shows it not always the results we want but still saved that unit from early death.
I enjoyed this video, love it when you teach step by step. Its gold.
Just for info, start caps are supposed to be mounted with the terminals up and the potential relay with screw tab on top so the relay is up also.
From a contractor: To have a hard start kit installed on your compressor, you can expect to pay anywhere from $300 to $350. Our prices always include the cost of labor and parts. The overall price of a hard start kit is cheaper than paying for a compressor replacement which can be $2,500 or even more.
$20 part, 10 minutes work.
Love this content! Always learn something new especially starting in the HVAC field! Thanks buddy!
Current relays must be upright.
The compressor motor employs both a start and run winding. The run winding is energized during the complete cycle of operation, whereas the start winding is energized only during the starting period. The current-operated type of relay has a coil connected in series with the run winding of the compressor. Some current-operated relays plug directly onto the compressor while others do not. Most relays are mounted in a case located on the compressor. When the thermostat closes, the compressor attempts to start, drawing heavy current through the run winding and the relay coil. This strong current flow through the relay coil creates a magnetic field strong enough to cause the start contacts to lift and close, energizing the start winding. When the compressor reaches approximately 3/4 running speed, the current flow through the relay coil decreases (due to the countering electrical magnetic field in the motor) and as the magnet weakens, the start contacts fall open. This type of relay must be used with an overload protector and must be mounted in an upright position, so that the contacts can fall freely to the "open" position.
Kd Grayson Except units with multi horsepower use potential relays not current relays, pot. relays start out normally closed and as comp. comes up to speed rise in voltage pulls start contact open.
Condenser fan motor is pulling amps at the same time as the compressor. Your first measurement of FLA is incorrect for herm.
Hahah... Holy s**t! At the beginning, I was curious about the electricals that were inside your unit and was intently studying all that. So, when your dog suddenly zipped around the corner of the unit and came into view...I flinched! I may need to switch to decaff...
Nice repair. The kit did help with the inrush current.
John some potential relays are position sensitive not all of them, they will be marked if they are.
For mounting the hard-start cap, a metal band (as used on the regular cap) would be better, instead of the plastic zip tie, which will be subject to cracking/breaking from heat exposure.
Heat exposure inside the cabinet 🤔
I just found this 521 compressor hard start package on the side of the road and decided to go look it up since it was brand new and I'm definitely going to be keeping it after watching this amazing video. Ty for the education.
Don't use it. Probably has internal damage from falling off of the turnip truck.
Good video and informative. I would suggest securing the capacitor with a metallic clamp since the nylon tire-wraps will age and break off causing shorts. In regard to the relay direction, it should not make any difference. However, when installing "any relay" that is not hermetically sealed in an "outdoor environment", you must always install the relay such that if any internal relay condensation occurring on the relay contacts, the condensation may drip off from the main contacts due to gravity. This will increase the relay MTBF (mean time before failure). This applies to all relay/contactor types.
I also recommend installing arc suppressor across your contactor contacts that will increase your contactor MTBF by a factor of 10+ by minimizing the contact arching at start of each ON/OFF cycle. I have installed a pair of arch-suppressors when I replaced my burned out contactor after first 3 years, and now after 15 years, it has still clean and reasonable contacts.
If you don't want to pay $5 to $15 for each arc-suppressor, simply use a 0.1 micro-farad "film or silver-mica" capacitor rated at 600 volts (or higher) in "series" with a 110 to 330 ohms 1/2 Watts resistor (for 5 to 1 ton units, respectively) . This will suppress any arching across contactor contacts. The overall arch-suppressor idea is based on keeping a minute AC current flowing through the open contactor contacts (about 1-2 watts), so when the contacts are opened or closed, there is no discontinuity in the AC current and this prevents the arching at the contacts. Hope this is helpful and good luck.
How about installing a sureswitch contactor.
A much simpler solution.
Nice Video. Like the magnet trey use mine all the time. I will start pushing those 521 instead of the 2 wire hsk.
Yes. You are correct about the relay being mounted correctly with the screw hole at the top. It's because of how the inner mechanics of the relay function and the gravitational aspects of the movement, especially after a few thousand cycles. Not an issue initially.
Yup!
This vid and the comments are better than the 5-2-1's instructional video.
5-2-1 recommends a vertical installation of their hard-start-cap (I don't know why, but if it can fit in that way, I'd suggest they know their business).
As a last resort, read the directions. Relay has an up arrow and you always mount a capacitor vertically. Other than that, it worked.
Great video. Other TH-cam video's that I've watched mentioned that the orientation of the relay is important. They showed the schematic which called for the screw to be at the top. Perhaps the unit you purchased does not have that requirement.
Potential relays are sensitive to position. Because the back emf picks the movable point up. I've never installed that brand but every single one I've ever installed says on the relay which side should be top. Not saying that particular one does. Good video.
John McMaster they are gravity fed relays and must always be mounted with the screw point up this one will fail
Not a dream, here is a youtube video explaining why to mount right side up and includes a relay opened up to give a visual of the gravity feed: th-cam.com/video/uLyZBkfHWf8/w-d-xo.html
he reversed it
Oddly enough, I have a Trane XL1800 Dual Compressor 2.5 ton / 5 ton unit built in 1999, and it comes with a 5-2-1 Hard Start Kit built in right from the Factory. I watched them unbox and open the unit and there it was. The relay has an up arrow on it and states to install it pointing up, but the FACTORY installed it sideways!!! It has worked flawlessly for almost 20 years. I just changed it out with a new OEM Hard Start Cap (the old Cap failed and was causing main breaker to pop when 5 ton started) and Relay, and I installed it with the arrow point up, but honestly, it probably doesn't make much difference based on my personal experience. My unit has very little vibration, but perhaps on some of the old beasts that shake like crazy, having the relay positioned correctly may help it work better.
That is the cleanest unit I have ever seen. You must know a good HVAC guy! ;)
I love icp's easiest ones in the world to work on, and if you take care of them they stay strong just as long as any other manufacturer brands.
Yes, the arrow on the potential relay must be up.
The instructions say to mount the relay with the screw at the top. Not sideways or laying flat etc. Ah I just heard you correct it. We've had them burn out so read the instructions helps. Hey that looks like a newer unit? Adam A/C Tex in Houston.
Every homeowner living in a warm climate should install a hard start kit on their AC compressor, no matter how old.. Very easy DIY job, costs less than $50 and 20 minutes of time
What type,a 5-2-1???
@@dirtroadsport that's what i installed, but there are many to chose from.
I agree! In fact, most AC units show an "Optional" 5-2-1 start kit right on the schematic included with the unit. I guess they don't add them at the factory because they would increase the cost to the consumer by $100+, so they leave them out. 5-2-1 Kits are suppose to reduce the cost to run the unit due to the reduced power surge consumption at startup time. And it is supposed to also help start the compressor easier by slightly changing the electrical phase inside the compressor for a few milliseconds to increase the start torque. It also reduces the surge load on the wiring and circuit breakers which can lead to a longer life.
Yup Potential Relay sometimes it reads TOP so it can be mounted in the right position in case it get stuck due to gravity,,,,n melt the start cap😏 We technicians dream bout fixing units. Trust me
i believe if the potential relay is upside down and it fails , gravity mates the contacts in the relay in that position, only seen it once and it was on a TRANE , Nothing stops a trane that relay did. GREAT VIDEO, I enjoy them and learn as well. thanks
Some times I have been able to pull the common wire off the control board to reset it, but some of the communicating stuff can be screwy. Great video ! 👍🏻
Read the instructions that come with the 5-2-1 kit, It clearly shows that the relay should be mounted up because the relay is gravity assisted.
The designations 5-2-1 are the terminals on a potential relay, 5 is to Common, 2 is to Start and 1 goes to 1 side of the start capacitor.
A Start capacitor must remain in the system for a minimum of 50% of the BEMF,
(start winding voltage), but not beyond 80% or the start capacitor might explode.
Take a large start cap and bump start the compressor,(touch start caps leads to Run & Start terminals on the run capacitor very briefly) Take a reading of the BEMF, back electro motive force, this will be above the line voltage of 230v, it will be about 300 volts.
Using 300 volts as an example, take 300 x .50 for the minimum, then 300 x .80 for the maximum and 300 x 1.20 for the continuous rating to size a potential relay in the old days.
Hi, can you tell me how the black wire is going to contactor T1 or T2 , what is the black wire?, is it common?
Did you check your capacitor first? Could it be that maybe it was getting weak ? I would still put that hard start on it if it was in my house but just curious.
Yes I did the other day when I realized it was starting loud. I checked it first before I decided to add the hard start.
It's definitely better than before John
You remind me of of one of my old team mates Randy when I worked for Joe Cool. Randy is a good buddy of mine and still does HVAC.
Relay Up side down. Coil position normally go into No to NC.
If you use a Larger Mfd Capacitor it will help I installed the Kit on my 3 ton unit which had a 88-108mfd which lower my inrush from 94 to 72 amps i replaced that Capacitor with a 189-227mfd and it dropped to 47 amps .
you are reading the amp of the fan motor and the compresor. If you are trying to read only the compresor amp you should put the multimeter on the contactor upper side and locate the compresor common wire, usually black wire.
Also the relay is upside-down 😅
Someone else didn’t watch the whole video
Hi Israel. Blessings to u n Fam as well,,,,,,I see a great example of dedication n good ,great, work practice,for u n ur customers,,,,,tnks 4 always da good advice.,..,I have fieldpiece but notice on Comp LRA always read a little higher than nameplate is it cause I m in Florida or that Batteries inside don't last long due to Van heat situation,,,,,,,.ttul,,,,,,i like all da guys like u that represent well our trade,,,,,,,,graduated from my local school 1988. Tnks bro...😁
what's better than a "hard-start" on an old compressor?... A "soft-start" on a new compressor: Zero in-rush surge!!
Also....A local HVAC company installed a 5 2 1 on my next door neighbors house because of a loud clank the unit made at startup. Charged $400 and it didn't help at all. So DIY if possible.
Thanks for the video. However, I noticed you did not follow the manufactory instructions. The instruction says to mount the relay with the tab up. The relay works with gravity and mounting it incorrectly can possibly blow the capacitor. The instructions also state to mount the capacitor vertically.
Someone didn’t watch the whole video
Hmm you mentioned a txv, my instructor said anytime there’s a TXV to install a hard start but I can’t remember his reason.
Good video! Nice info 5-2-1 it is from here on.
Awesome work John. Keep the videos coming brother.
yes, that is gravity switch so it needs to be placed up right
where's your gauges...over charged makes a hard start. plus... low temp adds to it.
I C P international Cooling Products,,,,,,,is not as loud anymore. Great job,,,,,,is it Scroll Comp inside?????????
What's the size of this start capacitor? I saw there are many different sizes online for sale? How to choose the right size for a specific compressor? You said the black one goes to the connector, but which terminal? or doesn't matter? Thanks
Glad i am watching this video. Thanks body
Great Repair And Video John
Thanks Harry!!
You mounted the potential relay upside down. It is a gravity relay and MUST be mounted with the screw at the top. Most brand 5 2 1 kits tell you to mount the relay pointing up as well as the capacitor. I hate free call backs because of something I did wrong
@1:14: Nice to have an apprentice around. :)
Thats a single pole contactor ! unless this is 115v unit. and it is NOT. you are just asking for issues = ta-da you got'em. also this unit has it, but older units dont =a delay timer for a sudden interrupt/restarts. and to cover my azz a Intermatic surge suppressor should be added.
MAY your AC live long and prosper . thanks for the video good info
Jay Finke No that’s a two pole contactor just one side hot all the time and then when it calls for AC and the contactor sticks in it gives it the full 220v 240v
Jay Finke all contactors in ACs are like that.
I had a dream. A crazy dream.
I'm not sure why these hard start kits are so expensive? It's just a start cap with a simple potential relay. Sometimes you can find them on Ebay at a good price. I like the Kickstart two wire version and the 5-2-1 three wire version.
I would add that a accurate measurement on the compressor would be the main power lead right at the compressor. That would be at compressor terminal connection. Just an observation.
Dreaming of Hard Starts Dude you need a vacation
the relay should be mounted with the mounting tab up. The capacitor should be mounted with the terminals up." per 5-2-1 insert as the instructions say
Lol I have sent msg before done watching video
Good luck brother
Thanks John, i think i need one of these.
I get how it works.....but need to ask this---> the hard start kit includes a relay and a separate capacitor....that helps for that fraction of a second ( or so) during the starting-time....and then drops out immediately after.. What is the probability that the new capacitor or relay may become defective and it doesn't drop out? Seems it will damage the unit....quite a kick in the pants if doing this is to "improve" the life of your core equipment. So....how reliable are these new components and how often do we see these fail?
The 146 inrush is still there it just happens too quick for the meter to pick it up.
You can try the Emerson sure switch next or the digital core sense contactor and see if that helps too. It engages when the phases are at 0v and I swear mine starts smoother with it.
Joe Shearer not! Inrush drops due to less amps on start up. Really lol. Speed of light
Great video, thank you! Open Question for the HVAC Gurus...
I know Start performance improvement with a 5-2-1 Hard Start Capacitor Kit is not as great on SCROLL compressors, compared to RECIPROCAL types (many Y.T. vids show reductions of Inrush Amps by as much as 45% after installing a 5-2-1 Kit - I assume these are on Reciprocal compressor units).
At best, I've seen only about a 9% reduction in Inrush Amps on my Rheem 5-Ton Scroll Compressor aftter the 5-2-1 Kit was installed.
Is this a normal "improvement" to see when matching the 5-2-1 Hard Start kit (biggest capacitor) to a Scroll compressor, or should I be seeing lower Inrush results than this?
Install Story/DETAILS, for anyone interested:
So, I just installed a CPS 5-2-1 CSRU3 Hard Start KIT in my 7YR old Rheem 5-ton SCROLL compressor/condenser unit, ( was running fine), but was slightly slower, buzzier, and metered with INRUSH Amps a bit above the specification on start-ups, recently.
L.R.A. specification for this 5-Ton split unit is: 152.9 Amps.
BEFORE 5-2-1 Install... Compressor "C" wire Metered INRUSH = 157.2 Amps.
AFTER 5-2-1 Install... Compressor "C" wire Metered INRUSH = 156.1 Amps.
Metered several "call for cooling" startups @ 150-155Amps INRUSH, AFTER Install: Best score was 147Amps INRUSH, with most starts hitting 152-155Amps.
Disappointed (thinking the 5-2-1 kit was a dud), I metered INRUSH again, a day later, on a few more start-ups - I found that my INRUSH was averaging between 142-146 Amps and the compressor has a more positive start, no buzzy wind-up; lighting in home doesn't dim during start, as before. All wiring terminals checked & re-verified, good.
(Same weather, thermostat settings, no other system changes since install day).
Odd - I'm unsure why unit seemed to perform better the following day.
Thanks for reading!
It’s only made for 1-3 ton units
@@kevinhudson6469 Not correct. There are 3 different kits available for different tonnage rated units. See the 5-2-1 website to verify.
Appreciate your informative video 👏 ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Never mind. I see further into the video that you have taken note of the position of the potential relay.
That's why all of us ask that you watch the WHOLE video before commenting!!
Some potential relays have an up arrow or are marked "top" . Good video.
The Black wire go into the contact: it that on the input side of the contact and which leg? Thank you!
Isn't that potential relay gravity position sensitive? Have you looked at the potential relay to see if there is an arrow pointing up?
Good work bro 👍👍👍
While your at it, check that 70/7.5 muf 370VAC dual cap. I bet it's lower than 6%
About 20% reviews in Amazon complained about burnt capacitor or relay which almost caused fires or compressor damage. After reviewing many different opinions, the benefits might not justify the risk!
Yes the relay has to be mounted upright or they will fail.
Great one John
I've seen the 2 wire Supco's blow up several times and replaced with a 5-2-1, one gets what they pay for with the 2 wire hard starts which isn't much, thats one vicious looking mini rotty, the shepard knows better than to tangle with it.
Good work, Joe Shearer said they were suppose to be tab up
I was curious about that brand so I glanced at the instructions. Joe was right on tab up.
Thanks Zack. And I remember him saying that now on one of his videos.
It's on the package and easy to miss because who has to look at the diagram anyway?
+Joe Shearer I just looked on the diagram to make sure...
+zeke112964 and what did it say?
Needs to be mounted up.Sometimes it is written on the relay. Good job.
The relay is gravity reset on start leg
hi, i have a new pool heat pump..it looks like there are two (2) capacitors,,one for compressor? and one for Fan.? i assume....do i need hard start for both of these? or only one? thanks....
going back to your field piece. I thought you were going a different brand.
All potential relays mount to line side up. CSR-5-2-1
Off topic but since you mentioned it twice what is "in delay" I notice my unit does something like that and sometimes it's "in delay" so long I think its not working and I reset the thermo to run. Thnx.
I keep one on my unit all the time even when I put it in brand new
thanks for the video john
Looks like a new unit to be installing a kik
You put the relay up side down..The screw tab goes up..(They are position Sensitive)..The 5-2-1 instructions tell you this.
Kinda confused. Hear me out.....the 521 kit black wire is supposed to be connected to the shunt side ( the side WITHOUT contacts).....typically labelled T1 ( top) and L1 (bottom, line input). This side doesn't have contacts but has a buss bridge between T1 and L1. The "other side" of the contactor is usually labelled T2 (top) and L2 (bottom, line input)...this side has the contacts. You can see from your connection that you wired to the top of the unit side that has the contacts...and not on T1 or L1. Going further....as to labelling..... L1 is usually 23......T1 is usually 23 (bridge)....and L2 is "11"..... T2 is "21".
@5:42: Isn't the mounting tab supposed to be up on that relay?
EDIT: You fixed it at the end. :)
So if my ac is 2 year old but a little loud would it help it and my lights flickers when they come on I have two ac units is it a good idea too put one of theses on
Hey, the relay has a up position. U mounted it upsidedown!
It must be mounted upright, the instruction sheet shows an arrow pointing up.
I found that my dual capacitor read 0 microfard but suppose to be 50. I am replacing the dual capacitor but I thought I add a two wire. Should that be okay?
Does it matter which side of the contactor, t1 or t2, that you hook the black wire to?
Usually T1 but you should check - it's the same one where the black compressor common wire connects
Connect in phase with common.
Otherwise it's 120 degrees out of phase.
Can we use a big capacitors in the main power to compensate amperage that lost at a few seconds of starting up ?
Did you notice it get louder on startup in heating mode? If so see if it's still quiet in cooling mode...assuming it's warm enough to run in cooling mode. I had customer with similar issue.
Thank you for showing people who not to use for a tech call. Chubby boy can't even follow directions on how to install relay properly.
Shouldn't be so baffled why he had issues in the past.
I've used hard starts on refrigeration units but never on a ac unit. Doesn't it just raise the micro fared and give the compressor more power to bump it off? If you know please let me know, thanks and I like your videos.
It's start cap not a run cap.
That is exactly what it is. It puts a start cap in parallel with the run cap to increase capacitance which changes the phase shift during startup to give the compressor more power during startup. Once the compressor starts, the relay opens and removes it from the system, returning the run cap back to its initial value.
Exactly, the start winding is shifted out of phase with the run winding which gives additional starting torque.