That looks like a new unit as clean as it is, I've never seen one that is more than a year old with the electrical compartment that clean. You're a brave man touching those start cap terminals bare fingered w/o discharging it first.
the reason the inrush draw is higher than the compressor LRA is that the amp meter is reading the condenser fan and the compressor with its location. move the meter to the compressor common wire and you will get move accurate measurement
The potential relay's contacts ( 1 and 2) are internally spring loaded in a closed position. Because of the spring tension on the relay contacts, the relay is position sensitive and must be positioned in the up position.
I believe the training video from 5-2-1 pointed out it didn't care about position but I know for fact that the one's used in refrigeration have a arrow that points the direction of install. Fine video and it shows it not always the results we want but still saved that unit from early death.
I just found this 521 compressor hard start package on the side of the road and decided to go look it up since it was brand new and I'm definitely going to be keeping it after watching this amazing video. Ty for the education.
Good video and informative. I would suggest securing the capacitor with a metallic clamp since the nylon tire-wraps will age and break off causing shorts. In regard to the relay direction, it should not make any difference. However, when installing "any relay" that is not hermetically sealed in an "outdoor environment", you must always install the relay such that if any internal relay condensation occurring on the relay contacts, the condensation may drip off from the main contacts due to gravity. This will increase the relay MTBF (mean time before failure). This applies to all relay/contactor types. I also recommend installing arc suppressor across your contactor contacts that will increase your contactor MTBF by a factor of 10+ by minimizing the contact arching at start of each ON/OFF cycle. I have installed a pair of arch-suppressors when I replaced my burned out contactor after first 3 years, and now after 15 years, it has still clean and reasonable contacts. If you don't want to pay $5 to $15 for each arc-suppressor, simply use a 0.1 micro-farad "film or silver-mica" capacitor rated at 600 volts (or higher) in "series" with a 110 to 330 ohms 1/2 Watts resistor (for 5 to 1 ton units, respectively) . This will suppress any arching across contactor contacts. The overall arch-suppressor idea is based on keeping a minute AC current flowing through the open contactor contacts (about 1-2 watts), so when the contacts are opened or closed, there is no discontinuity in the AC current and this prevents the arching at the contacts. Hope this is helpful and good luck.
From a contractor: To have a hard start kit installed on your compressor, you can expect to pay anywhere from $300 to $350. Our prices always include the cost of labor and parts. The overall price of a hard start kit is cheaper than paying for a compressor replacement which can be $2,500 or even more. $20 part, 10 minutes work.
Current relays must be upright. The compressor motor employs both a start and run winding. The run winding is energized during the complete cycle of operation, whereas the start winding is energized only during the starting period. The current-operated type of relay has a coil connected in series with the run winding of the compressor. Some current-operated relays plug directly onto the compressor while others do not. Most relays are mounted in a case located on the compressor. When the thermostat closes, the compressor attempts to start, drawing heavy current through the run winding and the relay coil. This strong current flow through the relay coil creates a magnetic field strong enough to cause the start contacts to lift and close, energizing the start winding. When the compressor reaches approximately 3/4 running speed, the current flow through the relay coil decreases (due to the countering electrical magnetic field in the motor) and as the magnet weakens, the start contacts fall open. This type of relay must be used with an overload protector and must be mounted in an upright position, so that the contacts can fall freely to the "open" position.
Kd Grayson Except units with multi horsepower use potential relays not current relays, pot. relays start out normally closed and as comp. comes up to speed rise in voltage pulls start contact open.
Yes. You are correct about the relay being mounted correctly with the screw hole at the top. It's because of how the inner mechanics of the relay function and the gravitational aspects of the movement, especially after a few thousand cycles. Not an issue initially.
Potential relays are sensitive to position. Because the back emf picks the movable point up. I've never installed that brand but every single one I've ever installed says on the relay which side should be top. Not saying that particular one does. Good video.
Not a dream, here is a youtube video explaining why to mount right side up and includes a relay opened up to give a visual of the gravity feed: th-cam.com/video/uLyZBkfHWf8/w-d-xo.html
Oddly enough, I have a Trane XL1800 Dual Compressor 2.5 ton / 5 ton unit built in 1999, and it comes with a 5-2-1 Hard Start Kit built in right from the Factory. I watched them unbox and open the unit and there it was. The relay has an up arrow on it and states to install it pointing up, but the FACTORY installed it sideways!!! It has worked flawlessly for almost 20 years. I just changed it out with a new OEM Hard Start Cap (the old Cap failed and was causing main breaker to pop when 5 ton started) and Relay, and I installed it with the arrow point up, but honestly, it probably doesn't make much difference based on my personal experience. My unit has very little vibration, but perhaps on some of the old beasts that shake like crazy, having the relay positioned correctly may help it work better.
For mounting the hard-start cap, a metal band (as used on the regular cap) would be better, instead of the plastic zip tie, which will be subject to cracking/breaking from heat exposure.
Great video. Other TH-cam video's that I've watched mentioned that the orientation of the relay is important. They showed the schematic which called for the screw to be at the top. Perhaps the unit you purchased does not have that requirement.
5-2-1 recommends a vertical installation of their hard-start-cap (I don't know why, but if it can fit in that way, I'd suggest they know their business).
Did you check your capacitor first? Could it be that maybe it was getting weak ? I would still put that hard start on it if it was in my house but just curious.
Great video, thank you! Open Question for the HVAC Gurus... I know Start performance improvement with a 5-2-1 Hard Start Capacitor Kit is not as great on SCROLL compressors, compared to RECIPROCAL types (many Y.T. vids show reductions of Inrush Amps by as much as 45% after installing a 5-2-1 Kit - I assume these are on Reciprocal compressor units). At best, I've seen only about a 9% reduction in Inrush Amps on my Rheem 5-Ton Scroll Compressor aftter the 5-2-1 Kit was installed. Is this a normal "improvement" to see when matching the 5-2-1 Hard Start kit (biggest capacitor) to a Scroll compressor, or should I be seeing lower Inrush results than this? Install Story/DETAILS, for anyone interested: So, I just installed a CPS 5-2-1 CSRU3 Hard Start KIT in my 7YR old Rheem 5-ton SCROLL compressor/condenser unit, ( was running fine), but was slightly slower, buzzier, and metered with INRUSH Amps a bit above the specification on start-ups, recently. L.R.A. specification for this 5-Ton split unit is: 152.9 Amps. BEFORE 5-2-1 Install... Compressor "C" wire Metered INRUSH = 157.2 Amps. AFTER 5-2-1 Install... Compressor "C" wire Metered INRUSH = 156.1 Amps. Metered several "call for cooling" startups @ 150-155Amps INRUSH, AFTER Install: Best score was 147Amps INRUSH, with most starts hitting 152-155Amps. Disappointed (thinking the 5-2-1 kit was a dud), I metered INRUSH again, a day later, on a few more start-ups - I found that my INRUSH was averaging between 142-146 Amps and the compressor has a more positive start, no buzzy wind-up; lighting in home doesn't dim during start, as before. All wiring terminals checked & re-verified, good. (Same weather, thermostat settings, no other system changes since install day). Odd - I'm unsure why unit seemed to perform better the following day. Thanks for reading!
Thanks for the video. However, I noticed you did not follow the manufactory instructions. The instruction says to mount the relay with the tab up. The relay works with gravity and mounting it incorrectly can possibly blow the capacitor. The instructions also state to mount the capacitor vertically.
If you use a Larger Mfd Capacitor it will help I installed the Kit on my 3 ton unit which had a 88-108mfd which lower my inrush from 94 to 72 amps i replaced that Capacitor with a 189-227mfd and it dropped to 47 amps .
I get how it works.....but need to ask this---> the hard start kit includes a relay and a separate capacitor....that helps for that fraction of a second ( or so) during the starting-time....and then drops out immediately after.. What is the probability that the new capacitor or relay may become defective and it doesn't drop out? Seems it will damage the unit....quite a kick in the pants if doing this is to "improve" the life of your core equipment. So....how reliable are these new components and how often do we see these fail?
The instructions say to mount the relay with the screw at the top. Not sideways or laying flat etc. Ah I just heard you correct it. We've had them burn out so read the instructions helps. Hey that looks like a newer unit? Adam A/C Tex in Houston.
You can try the Emerson sure switch next or the digital core sense contactor and see if that helps too. It engages when the phases are at 0v and I swear mine starts smoother with it.
Good video. As a DIYer , I noticed that the hardstart relay is supposed to have the notch side mounted vertically ( you did the opposite ), also they say the capacitor should be mounted vertically too. Also, the black wire was connected to the contactor on which side T1 or T2 ( looks like T2 ). Does it make a difference ? Thanks :)
Yup Potential Relay sometimes it reads TOP so it can be mounted in the right position in case it get stuck due to gravity,,,,n melt the start cap😏 We technicians dream bout fixing units. Trust me
I've used hard starts on refrigeration units but never on a ac unit. Doesn't it just raise the micro fared and give the compressor more power to bump it off? If you know please let me know, thanks and I like your videos.
That is exactly what it is. It puts a start cap in parallel with the run cap to increase capacitance which changes the phase shift during startup to give the compressor more power during startup. Once the compressor starts, the relay opens and removes it from the system, returning the run cap back to its initial value.
Every homeowner living in a warm climate should install a hard start kit on their AC compressor, no matter how old.. Very easy DIY job, costs less than $50 and 20 minutes of time
I agree! In fact, most AC units show an "Optional" 5-2-1 start kit right on the schematic included with the unit. I guess they don't add them at the factory because they would increase the cost to the consumer by $100+, so they leave them out. 5-2-1 Kits are suppose to reduce the cost to run the unit due to the reduced power surge consumption at startup time. And it is supposed to also help start the compressor easier by slightly changing the electrical phase inside the compressor for a few milliseconds to increase the start torque. It also reduces the surge load on the wiring and circuit breakers which can lead to a longer life.
What's the size of this start capacitor? I saw there are many different sizes online for sale? How to choose the right size for a specific compressor? You said the black one goes to the connector, but which terminal? or doesn't matter? Thanks
My capacitor has a little rust on it. Since I'll install the 521 at the same time shd I simply replace the capacitor also? For a 4 ton unit would you use the CSRU2 or the CSRU3? Thanks!
The designations 5-2-1 are the terminals on a potential relay, 5 is to Common, 2 is to Start and 1 goes to 1 side of the start capacitor. A Start capacitor must remain in the system for a minimum of 50% of the BEMF, (start winding voltage), but not beyond 80% or the start capacitor might explode. Take a large start cap and bump start the compressor,(touch start caps leads to Run & Start terminals on the run capacitor very briefly) Take a reading of the BEMF, back electro motive force, this will be above the line voltage of 230v, it will be about 300 volts. Using 300 volts as an example, take 300 x .50 for the minimum, then 300 x .80 for the maximum and 300 x 1.20 for the continuous rating to size a potential relay in the old days.
i believe if the potential relay is upside down and it fails , gravity mates the contacts in the relay in that position, only seen it once and it was on a TRANE , Nothing stops a trane that relay did. GREAT VIDEO, I enjoy them and learn as well. thanks
Hi Israel. Blessings to u n Fam as well,,,,,,I see a great example of dedication n good ,great, work practice,for u n ur customers,,,,,tnks 4 always da good advice.,..,I have fieldpiece but notice on Comp LRA always read a little higher than nameplate is it cause I m in Florida or that Batteries inside don't last long due to Van heat situation,,,,,,,.ttul,,,,,,i like all da guys like u that represent well our trade,,,,,,,,graduated from my local school 1988. Tnks bro...😁
Hahah... Holy s**t! At the beginning, I was curious about the electricals that were inside your unit and was intently studying all that. So, when your dog suddenly zipped around the corner of the unit and came into view...I flinched! I may need to switch to decaff...
Off topic but since you mentioned it twice what is "in delay" I notice my unit does something like that and sometimes it's "in delay" so long I think its not working and I reset the thermo to run. Thnx.
Did you notice it get louder on startup in heating mode? If so see if it's still quiet in cooling mode...assuming it's warm enough to run in cooling mode. I had customer with similar issue.
I would add that a accurate measurement on the compressor would be the main power lead right at the compressor. That would be at compressor terminal connection. Just an observation.
Some times I have been able to pull the common wire off the control board to reset it, but some of the communicating stuff can be screwy. Great video ! 👍🏻
Question -- DID you check your run capacitor to see if it was week ??? the hard start kits are nice but if you have a week or failing capacitor run cap, most likely is the problem on having the high starting amps
I'm not sure why these hard start kits are so expensive? It's just a start cap with a simple potential relay. Sometimes you can find them on Ebay at a good price. I like the Kickstart two wire version and the 5-2-1 three wire version.
They are not gravity assist. They are gravity neutral. You should mount them with tab for mounting screw pointing up. In this position gravity doesn't play a part in the switch contacts opening or closing. The switch contacts are in a gravity neutral position.
I know im old but when did we start not knowing that you have to have a hard start with a TXV coil? If you where one of my cec's you be replacing it on your time.
hi, i have a new pool heat pump..it looks like there are two (2) capacitors,,one for compressor? and one for Fan.? i assume....do i need hard start for both of these? or only one? thanks....
Thats a single pole contactor ! unless this is 115v unit. and it is NOT. you are just asking for issues = ta-da you got'em. also this unit has it, but older units dont =a delay timer for a sudden interrupt/restarts. and to cover my azz a Intermatic surge suppressor should be added. MAY your AC live long and prosper . thanks for the video good info
Jay Finke No that’s a two pole contactor just one side hot all the time and then when it calls for AC and the contactor sticks in it gives it the full 220v 240v
Right, common, usually T1 but you should check - it's the same one where the black compressor common wire connects and where you measure inrush current.
I don't understand what you said 100 or 146, it seems to be ampere why you break not cut off? when you say hermatic side of the capacitor what do you mean? I think it has common/run/start terminal only, can you use common English?
You mounted the potential relay upside down. It is a gravity relay and MUST be mounted with the screw at the top. Most brand 5 2 1 kits tell you to mount the relay pointing up as well as the capacitor. I hate free call backs because of something I did wrong
you are reading the amp of the fan motor and the compresor. If you are trying to read only the compresor amp you should put the multimeter on the contactor upper side and locate the compresor common wire, usually black wire. Also the relay is upside-down 😅
I found that my dual capacitor read 0 microfard but suppose to be 50. I am replacing the dual capacitor but I thought I add a two wire. Should that be okay?
CPS Wiring instructions say the Common (BLK) wire from the 5-2-1 potential relay, goes to the T1 terminal on the contactor, along with the compressor's "C" wire. Check the wiring diagram for your condenser unit to verify, before proceeding. Disconnect ALL power before messing with the wiring.
John my friend! I am very close, Mandeville. I added a 5-2-1 to my Rheem 3-Ton and my Rheem 4-Ton...disappointing results. Hoping you can help as my 3 Ton went from an Inrush of 79 to only 73? The 4 Ton went from 117 to 94 which is about 20%...could the one for the 3 Ton be bad? I put in brand new run caps as well...if anyone have any suggestions...it is August in La so very hot and humid..not sure if that impacts anything?
That looks like a new unit as clean as it is, I've never seen one that is more than a year old with the electrical compartment that clean. You're a brave man touching those start cap terminals bare fingered w/o discharging it first.
the reason the inrush draw is higher than the compressor LRA is that the amp meter is reading the condenser fan and the compressor with its location. move the meter to the compressor common wire and you will get move accurate measurement
Good catch. I didn't notice.
The potential relay's contacts ( 1 and 2) are internally spring loaded in a closed position. Because of the spring tension on the relay contacts, the relay is position sensitive and must be positioned in the up position.
Yeah he got that all wrong
The devil is always in the details. Some folks just don’t pay attention though.
I believe the training video from 5-2-1 pointed out it didn't care about position but I know for fact that the one's used in refrigeration have a arrow that points the direction of install. Fine video and it shows it not always the results we want but still saved that unit from early death.
"The potential relay should be mounted with the mounting tab up. The capacitor should be mounted with the terminals up." per 5-2-1 insert.
yes.
Agree about the relay (gravity aided). In some units, it's so cramped for space you have to mount the cap horizontally.
I'm not sure why the capacitor position is important but the relay certainly is.
This yahoo chubby boy doesn't know what he's doing.. terrible video for his business.
Yes, this was not correctly installed, initially, as per 521 instructions. It’s correct now.
Just for info, start caps are supposed to be mounted with the terminals up and the potential relay with screw tab on top so the relay is up also.
I enjoyed this video, love it when you teach step by step. Its gold.
Condenser fan motor is pulling amps at the same time as the compressor. Your first measurement of FLA is incorrect for herm.
I just found this 521 compressor hard start package on the side of the road and decided to go look it up since it was brand new and I'm definitely going to be keeping it after watching this amazing video. Ty for the education.
Don't use it. Probably has internal damage from falling off of the turnip truck.
Nice repair. The kit did help with the inrush current.
Good video and informative. I would suggest securing the capacitor with a metallic clamp since the nylon tire-wraps will age and break off causing shorts. In regard to the relay direction, it should not make any difference. However, when installing "any relay" that is not hermetically sealed in an "outdoor environment", you must always install the relay such that if any internal relay condensation occurring on the relay contacts, the condensation may drip off from the main contacts due to gravity. This will increase the relay MTBF (mean time before failure). This applies to all relay/contactor types.
I also recommend installing arc suppressor across your contactor contacts that will increase your contactor MTBF by a factor of 10+ by minimizing the contact arching at start of each ON/OFF cycle. I have installed a pair of arch-suppressors when I replaced my burned out contactor after first 3 years, and now after 15 years, it has still clean and reasonable contacts.
If you don't want to pay $5 to $15 for each arc-suppressor, simply use a 0.1 micro-farad "film or silver-mica" capacitor rated at 600 volts (or higher) in "series" with a 110 to 330 ohms 1/2 Watts resistor (for 5 to 1 ton units, respectively) . This will suppress any arching across contactor contacts. The overall arch-suppressor idea is based on keeping a minute AC current flowing through the open contactor contacts (about 1-2 watts), so when the contacts are opened or closed, there is no discontinuity in the AC current and this prevents the arching at the contacts. Hope this is helpful and good luck.
How about installing a sureswitch contactor.
A much simpler solution.
From a contractor: To have a hard start kit installed on your compressor, you can expect to pay anywhere from $300 to $350. Our prices always include the cost of labor and parts. The overall price of a hard start kit is cheaper than paying for a compressor replacement which can be $2,500 or even more.
$20 part, 10 minutes work.
Love this content! Always learn something new especially starting in the HVAC field! Thanks buddy!
Current relays must be upright.
The compressor motor employs both a start and run winding. The run winding is energized during the complete cycle of operation, whereas the start winding is energized only during the starting period. The current-operated type of relay has a coil connected in series with the run winding of the compressor. Some current-operated relays plug directly onto the compressor while others do not. Most relays are mounted in a case located on the compressor. When the thermostat closes, the compressor attempts to start, drawing heavy current through the run winding and the relay coil. This strong current flow through the relay coil creates a magnetic field strong enough to cause the start contacts to lift and close, energizing the start winding. When the compressor reaches approximately 3/4 running speed, the current flow through the relay coil decreases (due to the countering electrical magnetic field in the motor) and as the magnet weakens, the start contacts fall open. This type of relay must be used with an overload protector and must be mounted in an upright position, so that the contacts can fall freely to the "open" position.
Kd Grayson Except units with multi horsepower use potential relays not current relays, pot. relays start out normally closed and as comp. comes up to speed rise in voltage pulls start contact open.
Yes. You are correct about the relay being mounted correctly with the screw hole at the top. It's because of how the inner mechanics of the relay function and the gravitational aspects of the movement, especially after a few thousand cycles. Not an issue initially.
Yup!
John some potential relays are position sensitive not all of them, they will be marked if they are.
I love icp's easiest ones in the world to work on, and if you take care of them they stay strong just as long as any other manufacturer brands.
Potential relays are sensitive to position. Because the back emf picks the movable point up. I've never installed that brand but every single one I've ever installed says on the relay which side should be top. Not saying that particular one does. Good video.
John McMaster they are gravity fed relays and must always be mounted with the screw point up this one will fail
Not a dream, here is a youtube video explaining why to mount right side up and includes a relay opened up to give a visual of the gravity feed: th-cam.com/video/uLyZBkfHWf8/w-d-xo.html
he reversed it
Oddly enough, I have a Trane XL1800 Dual Compressor 2.5 ton / 5 ton unit built in 1999, and it comes with a 5-2-1 Hard Start Kit built in right from the Factory. I watched them unbox and open the unit and there it was. The relay has an up arrow on it and states to install it pointing up, but the FACTORY installed it sideways!!! It has worked flawlessly for almost 20 years. I just changed it out with a new OEM Hard Start Cap (the old Cap failed and was causing main breaker to pop when 5 ton started) and Relay, and I installed it with the arrow point up, but honestly, it probably doesn't make much difference based on my personal experience. My unit has very little vibration, but perhaps on some of the old beasts that shake like crazy, having the relay positioned correctly may help it work better.
For mounting the hard-start cap, a metal band (as used on the regular cap) would be better, instead of the plastic zip tie, which will be subject to cracking/breaking from heat exposure.
Heat exposure inside the cabinet 🤔
This vid and the comments are better than the 5-2-1's instructional video.
Great video. Other TH-cam video's that I've watched mentioned that the orientation of the relay is important. They showed the schematic which called for the screw to be at the top. Perhaps the unit you purchased does not have that requirement.
Hi, can you tell me how the black wire is going to contactor T1 or T2 , what is the black wire?, is it common?
5-2-1 recommends a vertical installation of their hard-start-cap (I don't know why, but if it can fit in that way, I'd suggest they know their business).
Did you check your capacitor first? Could it be that maybe it was getting weak ? I would still put that hard start on it if it was in my house but just curious.
Yes I did the other day when I realized it was starting loud. I checked it first before I decided to add the hard start.
Nice Video. Like the magnet trey use mine all the time. I will start pushing those 521 instead of the 2 wire hsk.
That is the cleanest unit I have ever seen. You must know a good HVAC guy! ;)
Yes, the arrow on the potential relay must be up.
Great video, thank you! Open Question for the HVAC Gurus...
I know Start performance improvement with a 5-2-1 Hard Start Capacitor Kit is not as great on SCROLL compressors, compared to RECIPROCAL types (many Y.T. vids show reductions of Inrush Amps by as much as 45% after installing a 5-2-1 Kit - I assume these are on Reciprocal compressor units).
At best, I've seen only about a 9% reduction in Inrush Amps on my Rheem 5-Ton Scroll Compressor aftter the 5-2-1 Kit was installed.
Is this a normal "improvement" to see when matching the 5-2-1 Hard Start kit (biggest capacitor) to a Scroll compressor, or should I be seeing lower Inrush results than this?
Install Story/DETAILS, for anyone interested:
So, I just installed a CPS 5-2-1 CSRU3 Hard Start KIT in my 7YR old Rheem 5-ton SCROLL compressor/condenser unit, ( was running fine), but was slightly slower, buzzier, and metered with INRUSH Amps a bit above the specification on start-ups, recently.
L.R.A. specification for this 5-Ton split unit is: 152.9 Amps.
BEFORE 5-2-1 Install... Compressor "C" wire Metered INRUSH = 157.2 Amps.
AFTER 5-2-1 Install... Compressor "C" wire Metered INRUSH = 156.1 Amps.
Metered several "call for cooling" startups @ 150-155Amps INRUSH, AFTER Install: Best score was 147Amps INRUSH, with most starts hitting 152-155Amps.
Disappointed (thinking the 5-2-1 kit was a dud), I metered INRUSH again, a day later, on a few more start-ups - I found that my INRUSH was averaging between 142-146 Amps and the compressor has a more positive start, no buzzy wind-up; lighting in home doesn't dim during start, as before. All wiring terminals checked & re-verified, good.
(Same weather, thermostat settings, no other system changes since install day).
Odd - I'm unsure why unit seemed to perform better the following day.
Thanks for reading!
It’s only made for 1-3 ton units
@@kevinhudson6469 Not correct. There are 3 different kits available for different tonnage rated units. See the 5-2-1 website to verify.
As a last resort, read the directions. Relay has an up arrow and you always mount a capacitor vertically. Other than that, it worked.
Thanks for the video. However, I noticed you did not follow the manufactory instructions. The instruction says to mount the relay with the tab up. The relay works with gravity and mounting it incorrectly can possibly blow the capacitor. The instructions also state to mount the capacitor vertically.
Someone didn’t watch the whole video
If you use a Larger Mfd Capacitor it will help I installed the Kit on my 3 ton unit which had a 88-108mfd which lower my inrush from 94 to 72 amps i replaced that Capacitor with a 189-227mfd and it dropped to 47 amps .
I get how it works.....but need to ask this---> the hard start kit includes a relay and a separate capacitor....that helps for that fraction of a second ( or so) during the starting-time....and then drops out immediately after.. What is the probability that the new capacitor or relay may become defective and it doesn't drop out? Seems it will damage the unit....quite a kick in the pants if doing this is to "improve" the life of your core equipment. So....how reliable are these new components and how often do we see these fail?
The instructions say to mount the relay with the screw at the top. Not sideways or laying flat etc. Ah I just heard you correct it. We've had them burn out so read the instructions helps. Hey that looks like a newer unit? Adam A/C Tex in Houston.
The 146 inrush is still there it just happens too quick for the meter to pick it up.
You can try the Emerson sure switch next or the digital core sense contactor and see if that helps too. It engages when the phases are at 0v and I swear mine starts smoother with it.
Joe Shearer not! Inrush drops due to less amps on start up. Really lol. Speed of light
I C P international Cooling Products,,,,,,,is not as loud anymore. Great job,,,,,,is it Scroll Comp inside?????????
Hmm you mentioned a txv, my instructor said anytime there’s a TXV to install a hard start but I can’t remember his reason.
Isn't that potential relay gravity position sensitive? Have you looked at the potential relay to see if there is an arrow pointing up?
It's definitely better than before John
Good video. As a DIYer , I noticed that the hardstart relay is supposed to have the notch side mounted vertically ( you did the opposite ), also they say the capacitor should be mounted vertically too. Also, the black wire was connected to the contactor on which side T1 or T2 ( looks like T2 ). Does it make a difference ? Thanks :)
Black to black on contactor
Red to red on contactor
Yellow to herm
Someone didn’t watch the whole video
Yup Potential Relay sometimes it reads TOP so it can be mounted in the right position in case it get stuck due to gravity,,,,n melt the start cap😏 We technicians dream bout fixing units. Trust me
Does it matter which side of the contactor, t1 or t2, that you hook the black wire to?
Usually T1 but you should check - it's the same one where the black compressor common wire connects
Connect in phase with common.
Otherwise it's 120 degrees out of phase.
I've used hard starts on refrigeration units but never on a ac unit. Doesn't it just raise the micro fared and give the compressor more power to bump it off? If you know please let me know, thanks and I like your videos.
It's start cap not a run cap.
That is exactly what it is. It puts a start cap in parallel with the run cap to increase capacitance which changes the phase shift during startup to give the compressor more power during startup. Once the compressor starts, the relay opens and removes it from the system, returning the run cap back to its initial value.
Exactly, the start winding is shifted out of phase with the run winding which gives additional starting torque.
Every homeowner living in a warm climate should install a hard start kit on their AC compressor, no matter how old.. Very easy DIY job, costs less than $50 and 20 minutes of time
What type,a 5-2-1???
@@dirtroadsport that's what i installed, but there are many to chose from.
I agree! In fact, most AC units show an "Optional" 5-2-1 start kit right on the schematic included with the unit. I guess they don't add them at the factory because they would increase the cost to the consumer by $100+, so they leave them out. 5-2-1 Kits are suppose to reduce the cost to run the unit due to the reduced power surge consumption at startup time. And it is supposed to also help start the compressor easier by slightly changing the electrical phase inside the compressor for a few milliseconds to increase the start torque. It also reduces the surge load on the wiring and circuit breakers which can lead to a longer life.
What's the size of this start capacitor? I saw there are many different sizes online for sale? How to choose the right size for a specific compressor? You said the black one goes to the connector, but which terminal? or doesn't matter? Thanks
My capacitor has a little rust on it. Since I'll install the 521 at the same time shd I simply replace the capacitor also? For a 4 ton unit would you use the CSRU2 or the CSRU3? Thanks!
Excellent video thanks again
The designations 5-2-1 are the terminals on a potential relay, 5 is to Common, 2 is to Start and 1 goes to 1 side of the start capacitor.
A Start capacitor must remain in the system for a minimum of 50% of the BEMF,
(start winding voltage), but not beyond 80% or the start capacitor might explode.
Take a large start cap and bump start the compressor,(touch start caps leads to Run & Start terminals on the run capacitor very briefly) Take a reading of the BEMF, back electro motive force, this will be above the line voltage of 230v, it will be about 300 volts.
Using 300 volts as an example, take 300 x .50 for the minimum, then 300 x .80 for the maximum and 300 x 1.20 for the continuous rating to size a potential relay in the old days.
You remind me of of one of my old team mates Randy when I worked for Joe Cool. Randy is a good buddy of mine and still does HVAC.
Read the instructions that come with the 5-2-1 kit, It clearly shows that the relay should be mounted up because the relay is gravity assisted.
where's your gauges...over charged makes a hard start. plus... low temp adds to it.
i believe if the potential relay is upside down and it fails , gravity mates the contacts in the relay in that position, only seen it once and it was on a TRANE , Nothing stops a trane that relay did. GREAT VIDEO, I enjoy them and learn as well. thanks
Hi Israel. Blessings to u n Fam as well,,,,,,I see a great example of dedication n good ,great, work practice,for u n ur customers,,,,,tnks 4 always da good advice.,..,I have fieldpiece but notice on Comp LRA always read a little higher than nameplate is it cause I m in Florida or that Batteries inside don't last long due to Van heat situation,,,,,,,.ttul,,,,,,i like all da guys like u that represent well our trade,,,,,,,,graduated from my local school 1988. Tnks bro...😁
nice video, very clear! do you take the inrush current from the neutral wire?
There's no neutral.
what's better than a "hard-start" on an old compressor?... A "soft-start" on a new compressor: Zero in-rush surge!!
ok I see herm is the start wiring. relay mounting hole face up is the manual required. thanks
yes, that is gravity switch so it needs to be placed up right
Hahah... Holy s**t! At the beginning, I was curious about the electricals that were inside your unit and was intently studying all that. So, when your dog suddenly zipped around the corner of the unit and came into view...I flinched! I may need to switch to decaff...
Off topic but since you mentioned it twice what is "in delay" I notice my unit does something like that and sometimes it's "in delay" so long I think its not working and I reset the thermo to run. Thnx.
Did you notice it get louder on startup in heating mode? If so see if it's still quiet in cooling mode...assuming it's warm enough to run in cooling mode. I had customer with similar issue.
Awesome work John. Keep the videos coming brother.
I would add that a accurate measurement on the compressor would be the main power lead right at the compressor. That would be at compressor terminal connection. Just an observation.
Some times I have been able to pull the common wire off the control board to reset it, but some of the communicating stuff can be screwy. Great video ! 👍🏻
Relay Up side down. Coil position normally go into No to NC.
Question -- DID you check your run capacitor to see if it was week ???
the hard start kits are nice but if you have a week or failing capacitor run cap, most likely is the problem on having the high starting amps
Good vid, how long do the hard start kits usually last? Do you know?
@5:42: Isn't the mounting tab supposed to be up on that relay?
EDIT: You fixed it at the end. :)
I'm not sure why these hard start kits are so expensive? It's just a start cap with a simple potential relay. Sometimes you can find them on Ebay at a good price. I like the Kickstart two wire version and the 5-2-1 three wire version.
Good video! Nice info 5-2-1 it is from here on.
Some potential relays have an up arrow or are marked "top" . Good video.
That potential relay is gravity assist and you have it upside down I think
They are not gravity assist. They are gravity neutral. You should mount them with tab for mounting screw pointing up. In this position gravity doesn't play a part in the switch contacts opening or closing. The switch contacts are in a gravity neutral position.
Can we use a big capacitors in the main power to compensate amperage that lost at a few seconds of starting up ?
Looks like you put the relay in upside down?
Ok you mentioned you had mounted upside down!
I know im old but when did we start not knowing that you have to have a hard start with a TXV coil? If you where one of my cec's you be replacing it on your time.
does it matter which side of the contactor the black wire goes to
hi, i have a new pool heat pump..it looks like there are two (2) capacitors,,one for compressor? and one for Fan.? i assume....do i need hard start for both of these? or only one? thanks....
Glad i am watching this video. Thanks body
Would have been nice to see exactly what you are connecting the multitester to in order to measure the in rush.
Clamp meter goes on the black wire that leads to the compressor 'C' or common. On mine, it's the thickest black wire in the bunch
Great Repair And Video John
Thanks Harry!!
Thats a single pole contactor ! unless this is 115v unit. and it is NOT. you are just asking for issues = ta-da you got'em. also this unit has it, but older units dont =a delay timer for a sudden interrupt/restarts. and to cover my azz a Intermatic surge suppressor should be added.
MAY your AC live long and prosper . thanks for the video good info
Jay Finke No that’s a two pole contactor just one side hot all the time and then when it calls for AC and the contactor sticks in it gives it the full 220v 240v
Jay Finke all contactors in ACs are like that.
Does it matter what side of the contactor to put the black wire. I thought it was suppose to be put on the common side of the contactor
Right, common, usually T1 but you should check - it's the same one where the black compressor common wire connects and where you measure inrush current.
The Black wire go into the contact: it that on the input side of the contact and which leg? Thank you!
The black wire from terminal 5 of the relay goes on output side of the switched leg of the contactor.
I don't understand what you said 100 or 146, it seems to be ampere why you break not cut off? when you say hermatic side of the capacitor what do you mean? I think it has common/run/start terminal only, can you use common English?
You mounted the potential relay upside down. It is a gravity relay and MUST be mounted with the screw at the top. Most brand 5 2 1 kits tell you to mount the relay pointing up as well as the capacitor. I hate free call backs because of something I did wrong
Show the wiring diagram for the 3 wire hard start! Are you adding a capacitor.
Look it up
you are reading the amp of the fan motor and the compresor. If you are trying to read only the compresor amp you should put the multimeter on the contactor upper side and locate the compresor common wire, usually black wire.
Also the relay is upside-down 😅
Someone else didn’t watch the whole video
While your at it, check that 70/7.5 muf 370VAC dual cap. I bet it's lower than 6%
That unit didn't look that old. Would a compressor go bad that soon?
I found that my dual capacitor read 0 microfard but suppose to be 50. I am replacing the dual capacitor but I thought I add a two wire. Should that be okay?
@1:14: Nice to have an apprentice around. :)
Hey, the relay has a up position. U mounted it upsidedown!
Good work, Joe Shearer said they were suppose to be tab up
I was curious about that brand so I glanced at the instructions. Joe was right on tab up.
Thanks Zack. And I remember him saying that now on one of his videos.
It's on the package and easy to miss because who has to look at the diagram anyway?
+Joe Shearer I just looked on the diagram to make sure...
+zeke112964 and what did it say?
Thanks John, i think i need one of these.
Where on the contactor the black wire goes? Meaning (L1,L2)or(T1, T2).
CPS Wiring instructions say the Common (BLK) wire from the 5-2-1 potential relay, goes to the T1 terminal on the contactor, along with the compressor's "C" wire. Check the wiring diagram for your condenser unit to verify, before proceeding. Disconnect ALL power before messing with the wiring.
John my friend! I am very close, Mandeville. I added a 5-2-1 to my Rheem 3-Ton and my Rheem 4-Ton...disappointing results. Hoping you can help as my 3 Ton went from an Inrush of 79 to only 73? The 4 Ton went from 117 to 94 which is about 20%...could the one for the 3 Ton be bad? I put in brand new run caps as well...if anyone have any suggestions...it is August in La so very hot and humid..not sure if that impacts anything?
You installed that relay upside down
The relay is gravity reset on start leg
I keep one on my unit all the time even when I put it in brand new
Whats the reason you add this to the electrical ? Idk what the idea is
It must be mounted upright, the instruction sheet shows an arrow pointing up.
All potential relays mount to line side up. CSR-5-2-1