Man raven i do not know how you only gave english classes beacausre with all the knowlegde you have this is straight up university level S++++++ tier your knowledge gave me a spark of will of learning more i lost during my scolarship and for that i deeply thank you for the energy and wisdom you give us keep your amazing work.
Quick thoughts before I watch: You cannot break the rules until you understand why they're in place to begin with. Most writers do not understand this idea, and so most "subversion" is done without real purpose or skill.
One of the best subversions I know is a spoiler for an enjoyable series is basically a fight between Frankenstein and The Wolfman... but by the time it happens, it's a tragedy and a travesty because they're on the same side. Also... Shrek. Shrek is pretty much the big first modern subverted fairy tale, with the uncouth hero, a princess who doesn't need much protecting, and a dragon that's friendlier than most. Also also... there is SO much "subversion" that the twist ending has become the norm, so playing the classic tropes straight IS the subversion now. It's why Top Gun: Maverick did so well. NOBODY is doing straight up heroes fight villains movies nowadays, so people lapped that up like a kitten lapping up milk. EDIT: Amon did NOT pay off well in Legend of Korra. That season was WAY too rushed, and didn't have proper build up. Sunk Cost Fallacy = Vader. By the time he realized how far gone he was, he'd already crossed the line a dozen times by circling the world.
I recently watched a video on Scream being a masterclass in subversion, because Wes Craven was already a master of the slasher genre. Rian Johnson tried to make a subversion of Star Wars, as though Star Wars in a genre unto itself, while having neither mastered Star Wars storytelling nor sci-fantasy storytelling more generally. He did it because he thought he was smarter than the material. If you ever think you're smarter than the material, your relationship with the material is wrong. Edit: first?
Nice video Raven. It's always nice to hear you talk about these things. But are still doing the Writing Room on westerns!? Sorry. Sorry. It's just that's what I've been looking forward to the most from you since you first said it was in the works. But this was still a great listen.
Hm...I mean, I can see that. Though to be fair, do people actually want traditional stories or they just feel like they want it due to all the unnecessary subversion of our modern age? I have a hard time really seeing that nowadays as at this point, I kind of had doubts they want to go back to the olden tales of our ancestors where things were a lot more simpler. Still, great video even if it did turn into a sort of rant that to be honest, starting to sound very repetitive, which I suppose can't be helped as those examples just hurt a lot of boxes.
I have to ask; how many people are too lazy to stick to their guns when writing a world, or how many of them just see being lazy and loose with their writing as being more rewarding? Consider that the masses of people don't particularly care for the integrity or solidity of the media they consume; they are too concerned with other things, or consider themselves beyond expending emotional or mental energy at what is to them merely a series of flashing lights, beautiful people saying meaningless but emotional words at each other, computer generated monsters rolling through buildings and clouds of dust trying to destroy each other, etcetera. To writers who are worried more with money, time and effort utilized dancing around established confines can be seen as a waste of resources when the vast majority of the audience that will consume such media won't spare a moment of hesitation to consider irregularities unless they are utterly nonsensical. They'd be perfectly fine with Luke Skywalker becoming a bitter, jaded shell of himself drinking questionable milk and attempting to kill his nephew in his own bed, because it isn't a FLAGRANT destruction of the suspension of disbelief, it annoys people like us but we are in the minority, and by the time the tides shift the movie has already grossed many times its revenue and embedded itself into the cultural zeitgeist. They've done what they had set out to do, the marketing people are happy, the shareholders are happy, they met the timeline and they didn't give themselves grey hairs trying to color inside the lines when they're selling it to people who don't particularly care about the lines in the first place, they just want to see color in a vague shape. If Luke threw himself into a black hole, and Rey fished him out of the singularity to discover he had turned into a half-dragon woman with big eyes, twintails and a kyber crystal heart and she can project lightsabers out of her wrists, then they would start singing a different tune. Part of it also probably lies in these creative works being given to people who profess, if the Witcher TV series is any indication, to not only be unfamiliar with the pre-established world, but to hold it in utter contempt. I would imagine many Hollywood trained writers are so intoxicated on the farts of themselves, their colleagues and their teachers that the consider anything beyond black and white, avant garde midwit BS to be below them, and being forced to work on media made for "plebians" and God forbid based on mediums like TV and videogames irks them and makes them wreck their projects out of spite. The fact these people are also the lowest priced in their profession only makes them more attractive to be attached to these projects as well, due to the suits above not caring about the integrity or lifeline of the IP in question, only if it recoups money within a certain cycle. Anything before or after is meaningless gibberish in the way of making money, even if it results in the franchise losing momentum and goodwill and vanishing within a few years. Indeed, perhaps laziness and spite is rewarded in multiple directions from above, below and within, and that's pretty... discouraging.
Remember when Wile E. Coyote caught Roadrunner in an indestructible cage? That Roadrunner couldn't get out of.. and Wile E. couldn't get in to? Best subversion ever. Luke's story in The Last Jedi makes sense. Compare it to Yoda. Same exact thing. Lost students, lost faith in the Jedi Order, ran off to a watery planet, became a somewhat goofy hermit, later got his faith returned by a new student. It's like poetry, it rhymes.
Okay but why? Could you see Luke turning into that? The guy who believed in the good of Darth Vader in the end SO MUCH, he cast aside his own weapon to show his hope and belief….now, for some reason, saw a vision of Ben doing bad things and tried to kill him? The guy who believed in his friends and his relationships so much he ran off on his own training to save them, against them advice of everyone…now won’t even go help them when they need him most and doesn’t even shed a tear over Hans death? How is that Luke? How is that the same person?! Even Mark Hamil, the actor, said this didn’t make sense.
@@RavenKnightYT Does Yoda seem like a cartoonish coward in the Clone Wars and the prequel trilogy? Not really. And yet, that's what he becomes. It's almost as if people change over the course of about 20 years.
@@herowither12354 Yoda didn’t become a cartoonish coward. The cartoonish behavior was a front to test Luke. And he wasn’t a coward. He was ashamed of himself for failing to stop the Emperor, knew that he was going o be hunted, and went into self imposed isolation. His belief in the Force did not change. His love for he Jedi did not change. His passion for life did not change. And his hope for the future did not change. Meanwhile Luke has ONE bad dream about Kylo hurting people and goes full homicidal on him. His temple is destroyed and so he has a bitch fit about it and goes away to hide and to die. His WHOLE ideology is shaken, and that didn’t happen in 20 years. Remember Kylo was a young man when he and Luke fell out, so it’s only been a few years if anything. Luke made a complete 180 flip in character in a manner of a few years. Yoda’s character did not change. For example: Yoda was hiding from a galaxy that had turned entirely against the Jedi. Luke is hiding from a galaxy that is LOOKING for the Jedi for help. Yoda decides to train Luke in the hopes of bringing back peace. Luke refuses to train Rey because he sees no hope at all. Yoda, even after losing to Palpatine, helps Obi-Wan hide Anakins children because he thinks there’s a chance things can change. Luke cowers in a hut and snaps at people who knock on his door. Tell me, did Luke act this way when Vader beat him the first time or when Han got frozen in carbonite? I recall him coming back later and kicking ass. Now he has one failure and decides he wants to die….that’s no ordinary change. It’s a literal 180 in character.
@@RavenKnightYT This analysis leaves out faith and the hand of the Force. Yoda was a dyed-in-the-wool Jedi, and had complete faith in the Force. He had faith that the balance would be returned, because as a Jedi he submits to the will of the Force. That is the greater source of his hope, not simply in the particulars of Anakin's children. The notion of faith is completely written out of old-man-Luke's narrative because Rian Johnson doesn't even understand faith as a concept, let alone how it plays out in Star Wars.
@@RavenKnightYT the problem is not that Luke Skywalker became a bittered and broken by his own failures. I can completely understand somebody screwing up enough that they fall into depression, self-loathing, and misery. The problem with the Last Jedi is that they do nothing with it. They don't even really have Luke have an Awakening where he realizes that he was wrong, he just pitches in to help out because that's what he's expected to do and then dies to get out of the way for the new hotness. It's just bad writing. And there were two changes that could have saved the movie: First, reveal that Luke had been having doubts and he got influenced by Snoke into attacking Ben. Second, Luke actually does fly back with Rey, and does a lot of damage to the imperial army before he gets shot down, and he uses the force projection as a distraction to allow himself to get close enough to confront Ben. And instead of vanishing like a puff of force fart, he vanishes just like Obi-Wan as the rebels escape.
Man raven i do not know how you only gave english classes beacausre with all the knowlegde you have this is straight up university level S++++++ tier your knowledge gave me a spark of will of learning more i lost during my scolarship and for that i
deeply thank you for the energy and wisdom you give us keep your amazing work.
i think you are a great teacher, based off of basically nothing
Quick thoughts before I watch: You cannot break the rules until you understand why they're in place to begin with. Most writers do not understand this idea, and so most "subversion" is done without real purpose or skill.
At this point if a night saved the maiden from a dragon and that's all that happened I would be shocked and that would be subversive
One of the best subversions I know is a spoiler for an enjoyable series is basically a fight between Frankenstein and The Wolfman... but by the time it happens, it's a tragedy and a travesty because they're on the same side.
Also... Shrek. Shrek is pretty much the big first modern subverted fairy tale, with the uncouth hero, a princess who doesn't need much protecting, and a dragon that's friendlier than most.
Also also... there is SO much "subversion" that the twist ending has become the norm, so playing the classic tropes straight IS the subversion now.
It's why Top Gun: Maverick did so well. NOBODY is doing straight up heroes fight villains movies nowadays, so people lapped that up like a kitten lapping up milk.
EDIT: Amon did NOT pay off well in Legend of Korra. That season was WAY too rushed, and didn't have proper build up.
Sunk Cost Fallacy = Vader. By the time he realized how far gone he was, he'd already crossed the line a dozen times by circling the world.
I recently watched a video on Scream being a masterclass in subversion, because Wes Craven was already a master of the slasher genre.
Rian Johnson tried to make a subversion of Star Wars, as though Star Wars in a genre unto itself, while having neither mastered Star Wars storytelling nor sci-fantasy storytelling more generally. He did it because he thought he was smarter than the material.
If you ever think you're smarter than the material, your relationship with the material is wrong.
Edit: first?
Ima use all of this advice, nice vid
Nice video Raven. It's always nice to hear you talk about these things.
But are still doing the Writing Room on westerns!?
Sorry. Sorry. It's just that's what I've been looking forward to the most from you since you first said it was in the works. But this was still a great listen.
Hm...I mean, I can see that. Though to be fair, do people actually want traditional stories or they just feel like they want it due to all the unnecessary subversion of our modern age? I have a hard time really seeing that nowadays as at this point, I kind of had doubts they want to go back to the olden tales of our ancestors where things were a lot more simpler. Still, great video even if it did turn into a sort of rant that to be honest, starting to sound very repetitive, which I suppose can't be helped as those examples just hurt a lot of boxes.
first, love your content
Not first
@@galaxvexxtheholy cap
I have to ask; how many people are too lazy to stick to their guns when writing a world, or how many of them just see being lazy and loose with their writing as being more rewarding?
Consider that the masses of people don't particularly care for the integrity or solidity of the media they consume; they are too concerned with other things, or consider themselves beyond expending emotional or mental energy at what is to them merely a series of flashing lights, beautiful people saying meaningless but emotional words at each other, computer generated monsters rolling through buildings and clouds of dust trying to destroy each other, etcetera. To writers who are worried more with money, time and effort utilized dancing around established confines can be seen as a waste of resources when the vast majority of the audience that will consume such media won't spare a moment of hesitation to consider irregularities unless they are utterly nonsensical.
They'd be perfectly fine with Luke Skywalker becoming a bitter, jaded shell of himself drinking questionable milk and attempting to kill his nephew in his own bed, because it isn't a FLAGRANT destruction of the suspension of disbelief, it annoys people like us but we are in the minority, and by the time the tides shift the movie has already grossed many times its revenue and embedded itself into the cultural zeitgeist. They've done what they had set out to do, the marketing people are happy, the shareholders are happy, they met the timeline and they didn't give themselves grey hairs trying to color inside the lines when they're selling it to people who don't particularly care about the lines in the first place, they just want to see color in a vague shape. If Luke threw himself into a black hole, and Rey fished him out of the singularity to discover he had turned into a half-dragon woman with big eyes, twintails and a kyber crystal heart and she can project lightsabers out of her wrists, then they would start singing a different tune.
Part of it also probably lies in these creative works being given to people who profess, if the Witcher TV series is any indication, to not only be unfamiliar with the pre-established world, but to hold it in utter contempt. I would imagine many Hollywood trained writers are so intoxicated on the farts of themselves, their colleagues and their teachers that the consider anything beyond black and white, avant garde midwit BS to be below them, and being forced to work on media made for "plebians" and God forbid based on mediums like TV and videogames irks them and makes them wreck their projects out of spite. The fact these people are also the lowest priced in their profession only makes them more attractive to be attached to these projects as well, due to the suits above not caring about the integrity or lifeline of the IP in question, only if it recoups money within a certain cycle. Anything before or after is meaningless gibberish in the way of making money, even if it results in the franchise losing momentum and goodwill and vanishing within a few years.
Indeed, perhaps laziness and spite is rewarded in multiple directions from above, below and within, and that's pretty... discouraging.
Remember when Wile E. Coyote caught Roadrunner in an indestructible cage? That Roadrunner couldn't get out of.. and Wile E. couldn't get in to? Best subversion ever.
Luke's story in The Last Jedi makes sense. Compare it to Yoda. Same exact thing. Lost students, lost faith in the Jedi Order, ran off to a watery planet, became a somewhat goofy hermit, later got his faith returned by a new student. It's like poetry, it rhymes.
Okay but why? Could you see Luke turning into that? The guy who believed in the good of Darth Vader in the end SO MUCH, he cast aside his own weapon to show his hope and belief….now, for some reason, saw a vision of Ben doing bad things and tried to kill him? The guy who believed in his friends and his relationships so much he ran off on his own training to save them, against them advice of everyone…now won’t even go help them when they need him most and doesn’t even shed a tear over Hans death?
How is that Luke? How is that the same person?! Even Mark Hamil, the actor, said this didn’t make sense.
@@RavenKnightYT Does Yoda seem like a cartoonish coward in the Clone Wars and the prequel trilogy? Not really. And yet, that's what he becomes. It's almost as if people change over the course of about 20 years.
@@herowither12354 Yoda didn’t become a cartoonish coward. The cartoonish behavior was a front to test Luke. And he wasn’t a coward. He was ashamed of himself for failing to stop the Emperor, knew that he was going o be hunted, and went into self imposed isolation. His belief in the Force did not change. His love for he Jedi did not change. His passion for life did not change. And his hope for the future did not change.
Meanwhile Luke has ONE bad dream about Kylo hurting people and goes full homicidal on him. His temple is destroyed and so he has a bitch fit about it and goes away to hide and to die. His WHOLE ideology is shaken, and that didn’t happen in 20 years. Remember Kylo was a young man when he and Luke fell out, so it’s only been a few years if anything. Luke made a complete 180 flip in character in a manner of a few years. Yoda’s character did not change. For example: Yoda was hiding from a galaxy that had turned entirely against the Jedi. Luke is hiding from a galaxy that is LOOKING for the Jedi for help. Yoda decides to train Luke in the hopes of bringing back peace. Luke refuses to train Rey because he sees no hope at all. Yoda, even after losing to Palpatine, helps Obi-Wan hide Anakins children because he thinks there’s a chance things can change. Luke cowers in a hut and snaps at people who knock on his door. Tell me, did Luke act this way when Vader beat him the first time or when Han got frozen in carbonite? I recall him coming back later and kicking ass. Now he has one failure and decides he wants to die….that’s no ordinary change. It’s a literal 180 in character.
@@RavenKnightYT This analysis leaves out faith and the hand of the Force. Yoda was a dyed-in-the-wool Jedi, and had complete faith in the Force. He had faith that the balance would be returned, because as a Jedi he submits to the will of the Force. That is the greater source of his hope, not simply in the particulars of Anakin's children.
The notion of faith is completely written out of old-man-Luke's narrative because Rian Johnson doesn't even understand faith as a concept, let alone how it plays out in Star Wars.
@@RavenKnightYT the problem is not that Luke Skywalker became a bittered and broken by his own failures.
I can completely understand somebody screwing up enough that they fall into depression, self-loathing, and misery.
The problem with the Last Jedi is that they do nothing with it.
They don't even really have Luke have an Awakening where he realizes that he was wrong, he just pitches in to help out because that's what he's expected to do and then dies to get out of the way for the new hotness.
It's just bad writing.
And there were two changes that could have saved the movie:
First, reveal that Luke had been having doubts and he got influenced by Snoke into attacking Ben.
Second, Luke actually does fly back with Rey, and does a lot of damage to the imperial army before he gets shot down, and he uses the force projection as a distraction to allow himself to get close enough to confront Ben.
And instead of vanishing like a puff of force fart, he vanishes just like Obi-Wan as the rebels escape.
goofy game