The most insane thing I have ever experienced during Classic was on a release date of WotLK. Some people demanded Sunwell gear to farm Utgarde Keep lol
@@Ge01O you're an absolute fool. Utgarde Keep is without question the easiest intro dungeon aside from Ragefire Chasm. If you demand good gear for it, YOU are the one who is bad, not the other way around.
Back in retail most ICC25 pugs only did the first four bosses. At least on my server. If you wanted to do the full raid you really needed to have a guild.
@@Aurelian57 Sometimes you could twist the pug leaders arm and they'd do Saurfang but only because every rogue, warrior, DK and Pally wanted Deathbringer's Will.
@@Idontlikeanyoneanywhere yep and that trinket was so cool. Never got it on my Pally but whenever I saw a warrior transform (via the trinket) they lit everything up!
@@Aurelian57 yeah my warrior managed to get one in a pug near the end of wrath. I think I actually paid for it like gdkp but way before gdkp was a real thing
I used to play on a wrath private server as my first real WoW experience. It was literally impossible to find anything else other than HC ICC and the few people that did non-heroic raids wanted people with a gearscore of 5.5k+ so if you wanted to get better gear from raids, tough luck.
i assume warmane, i also remember it being a problem on there that it was pretty much impossible to gear past hc dungeons without a guild who is willing to carry you for abit. big surprise there is far between those.
@@doncorleone1720 had plenty of time where the majority of people leave the group because they don't wanna carry the group leader on warmane because his sub 5,5k gs
What People keep forgetting about the original GearScore Addon is that it had built-in options that let you see an actual breakdown of the characters stats, had a really handy overview of wheter or not that char was fully gemmed/enchanted. There was an option to enable spec based GearScores, which made it easier to spot people with less optimized characters, aswell as an "experience" tab that showed you the amount of actual boss kills your target had if you just typed /gs into the chat. GearScore is just another perfect example of how the Playerbase tends to point out "flaws" that really only existed because people, as always, were lazy x)
The player base is split. The systems in the game are not set up to prioritize guild membership and commitment. The community is behaving exactly logically. It just happens to be a runaway reaction that continues to tear the community apart. The best era of the game was Ulduar. Before phasing and sharing, before gearscore was super common, when all the people crying that wrath was easy finally shut up for a minute, when you could excitedly follow the progress of the best guild(s) on your server, looking for the one lucky person that was going to get Val'Anyr, when you knew those one or two people who always ran really good pug groups for normal mode or for catchup in the previous tier.
In pre bis Option1: inform party leader I’m new to wotlk but have reviewed the videos for the boss fights and get kicked from group Option2: say nothing and see what happens.
@xshipwrec this was my typical naxx experience but I should update that ulduar was a good experience. Found a group that took a min to review the fights before going in and had no issues as OT.
"Welcome to pugs dilemma, the world where everyone wants to be given a chance to prove themselves, but no one wants to have their time wasted." man, the fact
@@octapusxft problem, they don't care, it's only a game for them. they can't respect themself so respect someone on internet? impossible for this generation
I think the primary issue with gearscore is that it requires addons. I don't really mind it otherwise, because there will always be some kind of metric to estimate your overall power. The attitude of a lot of people is ridiculous though.
@@iyaramonk Yeah, but since the ilvl in WotLK does such a piss-poor job of telling us what the actual power level of an item is, there had to be some other way to make estimations. It's obviously possible to create an addon that checks estimated power through gear, class and spec, but that's more work than most people able to make addons would be willing to put in. It is also more information than necessary as all that's necessary is a rough estimation.
@@CottidaeSEA Yeah but it's better to just check logs quickly. High gearscore isn't going to ensure you are not a credit card swiping moron that facerolls the game. And you don't need 99 parses to clear content, just be decent. If you're going to be selective about your pugs, gearscore is a terrible way to go about it is all I'm saying.
@@iyaramonk Logs are not great either. They reward selfish players who do nothing but focus on dps, often while ignoring mechanics and being a general nuisance. They also don't say anything about performance compared to content difficulty, it instead compares all logs, meaning the people who might've had a decent but not amazing log early on will look worse later on, despite it being more than enough to clear the content, as evident by the fact that the log was even recorded in the first place. It is better than gearscore though, but I don't think it's necessary. Gearscore provides enough information at a glance and as long as you don't stare blindly at it you'll have a very useful tool.
There are two things you can do when faced with unrealistic or unecessary GS/achieve requirements when you are LFG. 1. moan and open forum threads about it or 2. START YOUR OWN GROUP. It can be scary, but I've been clearing T7 in one evening with different groups I formed of different random people for weeks now. It's so easy to form a group because people are tired of having the unrealistic requirements forced upon them. Being in a an active guild helps as well, I know many guild including mine are basically on hiatus till Ulduar, but the point still stands. At the end of the day, as stupid as it sounds because T7 is a piece of piss, people need to learn to drive and not always be the passenger getting carried.
welfare epics started in TBC; not wrath in fact, it was before patch 2.4.0 when they released those T6-equivalent BoJ rewards, that I started hearing about welfare epics
Gearscore was always a braindead thing. Gear doesn't replace skill. How many times we invited high gearscore people then said person dying to the easiest mechanics
Bro people complained about the T0.5 epic dungeon set in actual vanilla WoW. People always whine when they think they wasted their time and other people don't have to waste theirs
@@brandondavidson4085 people do t get upset cause they think they "wasted" time it's that they feel any shitter can easily get equivalent gear for no skill.
This is why Classic Era on Mankrik cluster is fun. Raids are pug from MC to Naxx. No gearscore just always looking for people. If you are attuned you will find a raid.
Issue with GS is I was clearing HMs on PTR with a fully imported character geared team. 4200 is enough for most 25HMs, 3800 is enough for 25normal. When I play on my alts in an unnamed guild to try and find groups I do see lots of groups requiring a lot higher than whats needed which is what I remember from WOTLK. Otherwise you've really got to run a GDKP or form your own since most people don't run normal ms>os runs. People are requiring higher because the don't want to progress on the content though, although I would say 4000 is more than enough for normal 25 runs and most people want higher.
dude i was able to be top 10 dps(25 M Naxx) with a 3100 GS with some people below me having like 4k gs it dont mean jackshit sometimes people are stupid
@@hcs626 You playing warlock? That shit is crazy even with bad gear. My warrior is somewhere around 4k, but... it's a warrior. I hit like a wet noodle. I do at least show up on the dps charts though. Often in the 4-6th position in dps and I play arms, not fury, so I'd say I do pretty well. I've had some warlocks absolutely destroy me though.
My first memory of the term "welfare epics" actually comes from Karazhan referring to the loot at the end of the chess event, but it could be older than that.
@@ckcunningham5 It was from the pvp gear because you didnt even have to win any games to get it. You could make arena team, lose 10 games, repeat that every week and get epics from it.
The community doesn’t deserve classic. The insistence on min maxing easy stuff has never made sense. From demanding flasks and world buffs for ZG to now. I don’t get why people wanted classic so bad just to treat it like retail.
Because they're from retail. I played on Nostalrius and Lightshope private servers and it was never like this. Boosting and gdkp and the min/max meta were on the fringe minority. Best experience with vanilla. Once boosting and gdkp took over way back in classic, I knew this community was just retail players.
Solution: you just have to run so much content over and over people recognize you. Yes this mean daily heroics etc as we all have alts but theirs will recognize your main again from the other runs. Works for me although my GS and ilvl are high anyways no doubt partially thanks to just getting out there everyday and doing content. Pumping lfg channel instead of passive signups also a pretty good way to recognized
5:59 we did, and it was better, and idgaf what anyone says lol. I can scale everest, or i can take a heli ride to the top. Which one will i remember? Which one might i fail at? Failure is part of the allure. Not a money maker no, but the best of times for hardcore MMO enthusiasts like myself. Now everyone mostly just bitches about how much better it was, while wanting to cut our the entire journey and Zerg to end game, then quit a month later lol. YOU KNOW i'm right.
Gearscore is a funny addon when people try to use it for Tanks. Your gear score means nothing because a number of the BIS items for are lvl 174 from JC or essence of gossamer. That also doesn't account for defense cap, avoidance, threat sets, etc. You also have to take spec into consideration, which will often shift at certain stat thresholds and may be ideal for speed runs with overgeared healers but will not suffice in a chaotic pug environment. I keep running into BDKs that are you using that max threat tri spec and they over extend themselves in heroics and just straight up die because they traded off their mitigation and utility talents for extra threat they have no use for in heroics. It's kind of funny really because they just used the cookie cutter spec they read online without adjusting their gearing accordingly.
Gearscore is a rough estimate at an overview. Any decent raidleader/player knows that gear choice matters. When taht 5k holy paladin gets inspected and hes rocking full mp5 and crit pieces, you can tell right away he doesnt know whats going on.
I liked DKP. A good piece would drop and the first guy would spend all his points. Next time it dropped someone would buy it for 1/5 the points the first guy paid. 😆 You could get a lot of gear with a little bit of patience.
@@xplicitmike THIS or the 2R system are WAY better then DKP. I also like the idea of groups using a +1 system to help disrtibute loot more evenly these all are way better systems then the corrupt DKP systems
It literally doesn't matter if you're in a guild. We used mastrloot to keep people honest, but it was always just a /roll. The guild knew if you really needed a piece or not. The guild knew how much you needed a piece. The guild knew if you'd gotten really lucky the past several rolls and someone else needed a turn, even if you did roll high again. Of the community, for the community, by the community. The reliance on PUG raids is a symptom of a system that's not set up to prioritize a close-knit community. Raiding should primarily be a guild activity. Guild membership and commitment needs to be incentivized and prioritized.
I stand behind the notion that gearscore and eventually the introduction of "ilvl" on your character sheet in Cata is what killed the casual side, and eventually hurt the hardcore side of WoW. WoW originally stood out from other MMOs by having an incredible amount of build variety, gearscore and ilvl forced Blizzard to streamline as many things across as many metrics as possible to improve balance. This caused a game that was once designed around numerous variable classes and builds into one with 4 distinct roles, each with only slight flavour changes across classes/specs. Blizzard should have seen people trying to simplify and streamline the game and respond by adding variability back in, not giving them more official methods of tracking their streamlined efforts, and even emphasizing it within in-game tools(lfd having ilvl requirements).
I'm almost positive that ilvl has always been on gear. It was just hidden until Wrath. But the data miners had it all figured out anyway. That's why they just went ahead and added it officially. As for them streamlining the game, that's completely true. People always talk about how fun and tightly tuned the retail raids are, and that might be true, but the cost for that was a lot of the variety in gear and classes that the game used to have. They removed a lot of the RPG feel in order to make it a better video game.
@@seanwilliams7655 ILvl was hidden on gear, it also was not present on your character sheet (my actual claim), but it was extremely variable and unreliable up until Wrath. They streamlined gear and stat growth, it became reliable, and instead of figuring out a way to limit or deter the min-max process they just owned it and leaned into it with changes like streamlining the talent trees, introducing hard rotations, locking in playstyle using the mastery mechanic, and limiting spell books based on spec choice at lvl 10. All came in during Cata, all arguable made the progression in the game far more linear and killed the ability to make your character your own. I guess I'm wrong to state that gearscore is at fault, but it's a major signifier of a problem that was leaned into instead of fixed up until the talent revamp of Dragonflight.
why would they do something like that when literally EVERYONE back then begged them to do.. exactly what they did? The direction that blizzard has gone ever since cata, is basically what the community asked. But the problem is.. that wow's community is kinda shit. They will ask for something, they will hate the very thing they asked for, and then they will cry and blame blizzard for it. And repeat.
@@akhsdenlew1861 Yes, but they had, in the past, removed elements that simplified the game to the point of hurting it. Decursive and its removal immediately comes to mind. In WoD they recoded the way certain boss abilities spoke to addons which prevented DBM from completely simplifying certain raid encounters as well. Blizzard knew that they needed to look out for things that completely broke the game. They just gave in with iLvl though.
I remember crashing vent or TeamSpeak to throw everything into disorder. Only did to assholes... I kept many vents and TeamSpeak down for days . I might have been behind creating huge lag on certain groups who needed a lessons.
Call me crazy, but a form of spell batching feels like its back, on the live server I keep getting the " i have no target" message even though I have a mob targeted. This happens more in dungeons when we are clearing trash. Gets frustrating. at least a 300 millisecond delay
The irony of gearscore is that, at least on my server, 2 weeks into the expansion, people were requiring 4k-4.2k gearscore to join their pugs (aka be BiS or close to it). Nowadays, just have pre-bis and you're good to go for most pugs. In fact, the highest required gearscore I saw for a pug was around 3.8k but only for Achievement stuff like Immortal Naxx or 6 Minute Maly.
The GS requirements i have seen have been way more lax than what it was back in retail. People I have seen were only asking for around 3.5k GS to get into naxx 25s which isn’t even that bad. Only strict GS checks I’ve seen have been GDKP’s when taking on Carry dps and those normally also want high parses.
I had someone snap at me when I was doing LFM for a Naxx 10 achieve run and demanded 4k+ gs. It's no problem finding people with decent gear so why would you let some undergeared get a free ride? Let them gear up first the same as we all went through.
@@Darthellawayc I still have old ass clips of people asking for 6k+ for ICC 25 normal and people asking for 5.8k+ for ICC10 normal. People got outta hand with the requirements back when wrath was live.
I thought the community gathered as a whole when vanilla classic came out and said if this continues to future expansions two things should never return: Reforging And Gear Score So, when I started seeing people mentioning it and asking for it I simply rolled my eyes.
GearScore was one of the big things that pushed me away from the game. It ramped up the (already bad) toxicity between players to a degree I didn't want to be around anymore. It's amazing how bad people will act over a little number.
It’ll never end. I quit classic because I geared my main to 4300+ gear score in the first month and I couldn’t get my alts into anything but heroics. Even at pre-Bis nobody would take an alt.
I started late into wotlk classic. Geared through heroics annd badges, bought few pieces from ah and then tried getting into naxx....yay good luck with 3.6 gs. I had hit cap, was enchanted and had gems. Min for nax 10 was 3.8. Yeah thank you. I quitted last month cause maly and archavon isnt what i wanted.
@@diegradebanane pretty much my exact experience. I had a guy pass me up on the Maly speed achieve and I had the achieve on that character and linked it. The cherry on top was all the loot reserves. Sweaty old men reserving gear in pug runs is the most miserable anti-fun bullshit in wow. It was a nice nostalgia trip but a short one.
Played Vanilla and early TBC then dropped it. Picked up WotLK in Sept 2009 right after TOC was launched. I reached 80 on my main (Troll Resto Shaman) and was in my friend's guild. Low pop server so not much competition. I got invited to 25 TOC and while rocking greens/blues, I was 3rd on healing charts. The guild saw my potential and took me on some raids to get some purples. I was constantly 1 or 2 for healers (the Resto Druid was my competition). I was brought in for 10 man Heroic Lich King as the main healer with our Disc Priest and was main healer for Herald of Titans achievement.
I logged on to my era copy of my toon yesterday. I only had 3 pieces of tier gear - I had mostly blues on. You really had to earn it back then... waaaay back in 2019-2020 classic haha
I remember doing a dungeon back in WotLK where there was an unholy death knight with spectacular epic gear and he was doing _by far_ the least DPS. Even the tank was doing more.
I think GS shouldn’t base on ilevel, but on stat weights. For example, if I equip my highest gs items as a fury warrior, I actually lose quite a lot of dps, because some items, like dark moon card greatness, have lower ilevel despite being SUPER good. Gs should take into account your stats weights, base stats, haste breakpoints, talents, etc etc. This would mean that, if you didn’t get/enchant your gear and talent properly, you would have a much lower GS. Small but effective way to improve the efficiency of the addon
bis fury warrior rn are still like nearly 4.4k gs like mad lads cause of double 226 weapons and a quick inspect will fix that. Its why its also a benchmark bellow 3.5kgs you just know the guy didnt even do a couple heroics get badge items and buy a couple cheap boe specially this late in the phase
Yes, the content may be easy, but just yesterday I spent 3 hours in a 10 man because the tank kept pulling with no healers, the other healer dced for half the raid so I was stuck solo healing for the most part, and no dps passed 5k dps with many of them having many pieces of raid gear (we never finished the raid). This is why these systems are in place. This is also why I believe gearscore means nothing and logs are the only tell of a player's skill and success (except for maybe healers).
I'm top 50 Rdruid on my server. I got healing parses unintentionally because my first few logged raids were full of turds taking way too much damage. Afterwards, when I found a team that didn't suck, we just 2 healed 25man, thus more parses.
@@newguyiswinning Many adventure games are built around adventuring either with friends or by yourself. If you are wanting to adventure and experience the content with random folks, especially if you are going in blind, you have to be willing to make sure that 24 other people are ok with it. Its like going to a party that does not allow drinking, getting sloppy drunk from some booze you snuck in, getting kicked out, then wondering "Why did I get kicked out? Parties are meant to be fun!"
For example with myself.. I'm roughly 1900 io as a unholy dk.. I do 65-70k overall dps in most dungeons aside from academy cause cleave bloat at 14's.. I can easily do 16-17's with those numbers but people want me to have already done dungeons at 17's to join 17's.. I dont even have 4 piece and doing the numbers I'm doing. It's crazy.. Meanwhile they invite people that are 2100-2400 and those people become toxic and leave the key if someone dies or misses a kick. People are your worst enemy when it comes to pugs for real.. No number assigning and gear checks or log checks will bring a perfect player. It's all about good old voice chats.. If they feel a vibe with you and you all can relax, be focused and get stuff done with good call outs then all will be well. But if they sound like a up tight asshole who is nothing but big talk and nothing to show for it then kick.
I absolutely despise the Gearscore + link achieve. as a solo player (not many friends to play with ) It's literally a detriment to the game. How can you expect someone to get to said Gearscore, and get said achievement, if THEY CAN'T GET GEARSCORE AND ACHIEVEMENT CAUSE THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED IN BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE GS AND ACHIEVEMENT. It literally makes no sense
@@jamesmorseman3180 I've tried getting into guilds ya douchebag. Can't seem to stay in one, cause im casual. I work everyday and don't have all the time like most of you keyboard warriors to play this game. it's a completely fucked system
This is so right, spot on. I mean how the **** did the original people get there and finish the raid/dungeon in the first place? Another thing I hate is, seeing those announces that say, "Forming Ulduar 10 HC, (certain loot locked), etc...". 'Nuff said..!
pressure shouldn't go to dps and healers imo. what i would ask is simply if they know their class and are competent players. just have ok gear to pull through the bosses and the only time i see GS being used is for achievement runs. Not for a normal run where a bunch of guys are looking for gear and having a good time raiding. Though the one role where not so much of GS but raw stats matter the most are for tanks specifically. Like what's your defence? your Hit rating? how much HP you have? how well can you pull threat? You got to be able to as a tank hold your own in boss fights because if the tanks die the whole raid wipes. You can make it through a 25man fight if one healer or even two healers are down or some dps get killed but as soon as a tank is down its almost game over for the fight. and I main a tank (protection paladin) in the game. I understand the importance to the role and i do my best to carry through.
I remember playing low level bgs in wotlk and the current state is unplayable. Can’t level alts or twink or even get a queue to pop. That’s a big disappointment to me
i like the part where he scrolls thru trade chat talking about how many people are requiring high gearscore or a link to achievements, and yet literally zero of the messages shown have either of those requirements 2:12 not even saying hes wrong just funny lol
The reintroduction of gearscore as a whole is so unbelievably silly. It would have been possible to adapt gearscore to any previous and following expansion. This did not happen for obvious reasons Doesn't stop people from using it now, just because it was used back then. Peak stupidity *facepalm*
I had 3.6 gs before I quitted and I got in NO Naxx10 raid, cause gear wasnt good enough....i also asked for 25 and nope. For 25 I unde4stand it, but not for 10 man...
If I see people asking for gearscore I right click and use Report > Inappropriate Communication, tick every option and write "Gearscore" in the box underneath before submitting it. I've been encouraging others on my realm to do this through LFG and Trade as well when I see people doing it, reason being that if enough people start doing this Blizzards automated system will silence that persons account and they will not be able to speak on any character until they speak to customer support, and when customer support keep seeing "Gearscore" as the reason for people submitting these reports then something might be done about it as it is costing the company money in the form of employee time. If you hate this "Link GS and Achi" crap as much as I do then please do this yourselves and spread the word!
As a raid geared healer for H dungeons I just grab the first 3 DPS and tank I see and go, if they suck it's just practice for me keeping them alive. For raids there just isn't an easy answer, everyone needs gear so everyone should be able to come but you also want to finish and do so in a practical amount of time.
I think it us reasonable to want the majority of the group to at least have gear one tier below the content you want to do. Questing blues for heroics, heroic/10man loot for 25man for example
Just this week (the week before p2 launches) my friend got kicked from a naxx 25 for not having enough gear. He was inspected by the raid leader and told it was okay, then kicked just before they started. Very dumb.
I can't say I'm opposed to the use of Gearscore, because as you said, obtaining epics is easy enough, reliably run your daily Heroics and you'll soon have enough emblams for key pieces of gear on top of the epic drops. Linking achievements however is a slippery slope, because you can find yourself in a Catch 22 situation that you can't complete the raid to obtain the achievement because no one will invite you without it. So far I have only seen the requirement to link achievement in the case where a raid group is going for a specific goal other than simply clearing the raid, such as immortal runs, we as players need to be vigilant in ensuring we don't start arbitrarily excluding players from end game content.
If I'm leading a pug of 25 people I don't want to take people who will need to learn the mechanics for each boss. There are definitely low effort people who don't bother looking up tacts beforehand. And when you're leading 25 strangers for a 2 hour raid, you need to keep things smooth. The experienced people are not gonna have the patience to wipe several times while rookies are learning. That's not what they're used to, so that's not what they expect when they join your raid.
@@Dennis-ud2nh Well the issue with that is a lot of people who pug are on alts, they might have done the raid countless of times already on their main but the alt won't have any achievments.
@@Mason1968PL doesnt take too long to link main logs or achievements while having decent starter gs on the alt most ppl whining just want to get carried for real do your heroics get a workable toon and youll get into runs its not rocket science
@@Sco777owel1 Heroic gear is about 3,5k GS, people ask a lot more than that for normal Nax runs. My problem isn't with the fact they don't invite everyone, i just think there are good and bad methods of filtering players.
@@Mason1968PL At some point pugging is like tinder like the lead will take the hotest pick at a glance just keep applying never had trouble gettting in a raid after doing my heroics and a 10 man. Like yeah maybe not the first one but just keep applying and dont get beaten down by a couple rejections might not even be because of gearscore the lead is trying to build a decent comp too
I may be the odd one out, but when pugging to fill a spot I just had people explain me a fight in the raid, if they knew the mechanics, then they know what to do.
yesterday I was excited to going on raids for the first time, had all of my gear purple, bis, and even some raid gear from H+ and no one wanted to invite me to naxx or obsidian sanct because my GS was too low I literally cant get any better gear without raids...
Its simple to see why Raiding became more and more accessible. Its simple business. When you spend millions of dollars on content that only 5% or fewer of your player base sees, and you give the other 95% basically nothing, you will start to lose that 95% of your player base. Wrath was the happy medium everyone remembers. Sure, the starting raids were easy, but it did get harder and with some unique challenges thrown in. Yes, purples lost their unique Value, but it was easier to find a replacement or start a pug if things failed. I am all for hard content, content that I will probably never see, but it has to be proportionate dev time. Its the main reason why Blizzard during Wrath forward, started to really lean heavily on the daily idea and create new areas/whole zones for the scrubs to play every patch cycle. You either have to make the content braindead (Wrath Launch Heroics) or later LFR, or create new shit for the slackers. You can do the hardcore route, but look at Wildstar. WoW would have had a slower decline but if raiding percentages stayed at 5% of people clearing last content, Retail WoW would have been under 1 million subs ages ago.
@@iyaramonk Family friendly guilds thrived more in Vanilla. Played all on live. My guild in Vanilla was family friendly and better than anything I saw the entirety of Wrath for that type of guild. Only reason guilds thrived in raiding b/c the first tier was just a beefed up dungeon. You didn't see those guilds hitting HMs in Ulduar with the rest of us hardcore guilds.
@@EQOAnostalgia that's becouse MMORPG'S were THE place to socialize as well. Now socializing is just out of the question, everyone plays MMORPGS like a single player game. But truth is that MMORPGS are not good at single -playing, compared to actual single player games. Now everyone socialize on social media 24/7 anyway... they don't feel the need to chat in WoW as well. Also gamers back then were just more... Romantic. It's more about the humans and their lifestyles than the games. The games are actually a lot better compared to 99-07.
I have had groups for low level dungeons not except me because I don’t use boa’s. Was told they were trying to do multiple runs as fast as possible but little did they know full groups get you more xp
My guild still uses DKP and has done since molten core. We have never had any issues with distribution. The only time we've ever had to LC anything was 4 horsemen making sure all the warriors got their 4set before others.
WoW has gone to being a loot collector/speedrun rather than a social game. Biggest indication of that is Mythic+. Instead of taking your time, doing fights right and having fun, you rush rush rush pump out as much damage as you can even if you're sacrificing tactics, prioritize shortcuts, then do it all over again seconds later.
If youve had any experience with classic players u know these metrics are needed cause trying your hardest to do well in the raid just to have jimmy the guy who goes afk in the middle of boss fights win the roll for a bis item, forcing you to roll the dice again next week. Its alot less toxic when everyone puts in similar effort
If you end up having to deal with Jimmy the guy who goes afk every single week because of pugs, you might want to consider getting a guild and running with them. Is better to complain at someone you know than complain for a random nobody you might not see again.
Gearscore exists for a reason. Sure, you can look people up on warcraft logs and that's the ONE better alternative, but if you don't want to do that and just want to put a quick pug together, inviting everyone who has a 4k+ gearscore to your weekly naxx pug will guarantee that the player has more health, and will do slightly more damage, even if they're a shitter and they die, than a shitter who doesn't have good gear.
The evolution to get into a raid in wow has changed over the years, first was having the achievent then gear score, now ppl check your parses, if you parse less than 80 you will get ur ass kicked from the raid or not even getting an invite
I don't play anymore, but I had an LVL 80 UD rogue. I wanted to run some instances on heroic but my “gear score” was not good enough, and it got to a point where I can't run anything because of that…the number, so I quit instead. Furthermore, I'd love to play again, but that's what ultimately made me quit
If you are starting a pug run, the ppl you in ite can be trash/good with gear or trash/good without gear. If you ask for gear score you remove at least the latter. Achievements are obviously proof you "know" the encounter to some extent. Another variable removed. I never start my own runs, but I can understand why gear score and achievements are a thing. Noone wants to waste time on clueless ungeared ppl. Undergeared and clueless enough to roll on everything because they have no clue what they should go for.
Gear score is so dumb lol. I ALWAYS lie about it and do just fine in raids. GS is and was one of the worst ways to determine if someone was a good player or not :)
LOL called it. One big reason I had my fun at launch and got out after I had my fun. Not going through that degenerate crap again. I remember the day GearScore reared it's head for the first time. That was when the "adventure" and "community" truly died.
Was really enjoying wrath till I tried getting groups for normal dungeons(Druid tank/heal)and almost all rejected me because I'd not done it before or wanted almost HC geared people. Logged out went to Dragon flight and cant see myself going back now.
The moment they announced mythic+ for wotlk was the moment I knew I wouldn't touch it. Now I play proper m+ in dragonflight, because the game is actually designed with m+ in mind.
@@ulasdenizakyurek5055 Ulduar will bring mythic 5 mans with affixes. I would be very surprised if ToC or ICC won't come with key levels. But they won't use literal keys that you level, because they are very careful to not use the same terminology as in retail. My main issue with it is that it isn't classic anymore. It's wotlk reforged.
I don't want to play with people who didn't put in the work. It sucks if you pushed phase 1 BIS to have a guy with lower than 4k gearscore come in, get carried and take your gear. The phase 1 raids are still there, and people still run them. That might get some people mad, but I think most progression raiders feel the same.
I played on a WOTLK private server for years on end after retail ended... And people kept using both GS and achis for invites all the time for all those years too. The problem was, the server was basically P2W, you could quite literally buy absolutely every BiS item for 5-20€ a piece, making GS lose the last shred of usefulness it may have had. And yes, I too bought a few items. Mostly a few trinkets and an LK25HC weapon for my main, but only after getting everything else legitimately and grinding the raids for months on end without luck.
Different world of warcraft from 2008, the stat and achievement gate keeping wont turn off so many people because way less people play the game, its as simple as that.
@@feo130 you mean the world buff-staying offline untill raid Meta? yea that sounds fun. Vanilla is actually a good game. But the problem is that we know exactly what to do. And we do it by sucking the fun out of it. What we need is a vanilla-type NEW game, with a new world...that noone knows. Vanilla itself, at this point is pretty useless.. i'd take WOTLK every single time compared to vanilla. Classes were horribly balanced, gear was worse in terms of balance. PvP was... oh my god THE worst in terms of balance. And u know.. back then, it didn't matter.. people would play whatever the fuck they liked. But now they will just play warrior or mage. And they will be right.
I could have sworn welfare epics came from justice badges in TBC, since you could buy the epic gear from the vendors without ever stepping in a raid etc.
Yet, those epics were not exactly Tier level gear. Sure, som of the pieces on sale were BIS for a while for some classes, but you could not gear yourself completely from that vendor and deal respectable dmg. Even some HC dung blues were better stat wise.
@@Passonator11 yeah but I'm talking about where the term came from, and the fact you could get purples without doing anything that traditionally awarded a purple was where 'welfare epic' came from as a term
@@Zorayah fair enough, I consider the term to describe the "catch up" mechanic in the game. But unlike ZG or ZA, for the wotlk (and BC) vedor epics you could just farm dungeons for it. Maybe the reason why I do not consider the BC vendor epics such a handout, is the fact that BC HC's were hard upon launch. I have fond memories of grinding for my badge supplied epic off hand. However at that point, I already had a few crafted epic pieces and couple of pre-bis dungeon blues.
@@Passonator11 I mean that's what the player base started calling them, I sucked at the game in tbc and barely even had 'welfare' epics myself haha, wow players are gonna be wow players tho!
@@Zorayah interesting, was it in original or reboot? Cause I can't say I recall anybody calling them that back then. I only came across the expression once WOTLK allowed you to purchase Tier gear with badges.
I was very annoyed by the gear score addition in original WoW and reliving this in the second go round it is somehow even more annoying because now you have to contend with “checking parses” on top of it…. And for Naxx 10 no less… so dumb.
>if you see grey parses, you won't want to bring them I play a Fury warrior, roughly 3900 GS. On fights where I can sit there and just go to town on the boss, I can average 3500 DPS. Definitely not as high as DKs, warlocks, rogues, or boomkins, but still perfectly viable for Naxx10/25. I know the fights like the back of my hand, tanked, healed, and DPSed them all. I've never died on the dance, despite seeing much better geared players die on it all the time. But because I currently only have one run in Naxx25, a majority of my parses are grey, and also because I got a late start with this warrior (yay new guild that was needing a Fury warrior). Would that mean I don't get invited? Simply because I'm not sweating it as much as other DPS?
This is excactly what it means. 3.5k dps is unexcuseable. People are pumping 8k+ that means they still do more than you even tho they are dead half of the time. Get pre bis, enchants and then some 10man gear before you join 25man. Then you are easily able todo 5k + atleast.
@LongPape >3.5k DPS is inexcusable Apologies for not having dual Betrayers or even Death's Bites. >it's okay to die repeatedly as long as you're doing 8k+ Can't do 8k if you're dead. And dying in *Naxx* outside of a full wipe is laughable. And I'm not blowing nearly 2k on Berserker or the 110 AP enchant on a fucking *Titansteel Destroyer*, especially so close to Ulduar. Also also, my warrior is herb/alchemy. Not gonna chase that Engineering/JC combo everyone and their mother is going for.
@@Dimumouto 8k was meant for when they dont die. Me then implying that they die half way through the fight then means that they will have 4k aka still 500 above you. Nobody says anything about dual betrayer. Its not even hard to go for atleast 5k dps since that is reachable with prebis basically. Be honest how many heroics did you do so far? How often did you go halls of lightning for your prebis weapon?
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willemmo let me introduce you to the human condition
yikes.
The most insane thing I have ever experienced during Classic was on a release date of WotLK. Some people demanded Sunwell gear to farm Utgarde Keep lol
Same thing happened in TBC, nobody wanted to carry a boosted 58 through like ten Ramp+BF runs haha
thats how it should be...... people want speed, not to play with a bunch of noobs
I'm pretty sure you could clear Utgarde Keep with two people in the group naked and no one having selected any talent points
@@Ge01O you're an absolute fool. Utgarde Keep is without question the easiest intro dungeon aside from Ragefire Chasm. If you demand good gear for it, YOU are the one who is bad, not the other way around.
What gets me is that those people demanding the most geared players for their groups aren't that geared themselves.
Back in retail most ICC25 pugs only did the first four bosses. At least on my server. If you wanted to do the full raid you really needed to have a guild.
Oh, wow forgot about that! Everyone made sure to at least get to "loot ship".
@@Aurelian57 Sometimes you could twist the pug leaders arm and they'd do Saurfang but only because every rogue, warrior, DK and Pally wanted Deathbringer's Will.
@@Idontlikeanyoneanywhere yep and that trinket was so cool. Never got it on my Pally but whenever I saw a warrior transform (via the trinket) they lit everything up!
@@Aurelian57 yeah my warrior managed to get one in a pug near the end of wrath. I think I actually paid for it like gdkp but way before gdkp was a real thing
Toward the end you could get most pugs to do plague wing and maybe the first boss of blood or frost.
I used to play on a wrath private server as my first real WoW experience. It was literally impossible to find anything else other than HC ICC and the few people that did non-heroic raids wanted people with a gearscore of 5.5k+ so if you wanted to get better gear from raids, tough luck.
i assume warmane, i also remember it being a problem on there that it was pretty much impossible to gear past hc dungeons without a guild who is willing to carry you for abit. big surprise there is far between those.
That's why guild existed back then lol
@@zentarion.just open the raid for urself? Its very easy to gear a new Character on warmane
@@doncorleone1720 had plenty of time where the majority of people leave the group because they don't wanna carry the group leader on warmane because his sub 5,5k gs
This is normal for a private server. They are the sweatiest of the sweats. This point says nothing. Pservers aren’t even close to comparable
What People keep forgetting about the original GearScore Addon is that it had built-in options that let you see an actual breakdown of the characters stats, had a really handy overview of wheter or not that char was fully gemmed/enchanted. There was an option to enable spec based GearScores, which made it easier to spot people with less optimized characters, aswell as an "experience" tab that showed you the amount of actual boss kills your target had if you just typed /gs into the chat.
GearScore is just another perfect example of how the Playerbase tends to point out "flaws" that really only existed because people, as always, were lazy x)
As much as I wanted to play wrath, I eventually stopped because of what the players have turned it into.
Yep. The classic community is absolute trash.
I never played in wrath and I don't even want to play it lmao retail is much better in dragon flights
100
The player base is split. The systems in the game are not set up to prioritize guild membership and commitment. The community is behaving exactly logically. It just happens to be a runaway reaction that continues to tear the community apart.
The best era of the game was Ulduar. Before phasing and sharing, before gearscore was super common, when all the people crying that wrath was easy finally shut up for a minute, when you could excitedly follow the progress of the best guild(s) on your server, looking for the one lucky person that was going to get Val'Anyr, when you knew those one or two people who always ran really good pug groups for normal mode or for catchup in the previous tier.
In pre bis
Option1: inform party leader I’m new to wotlk but have reviewed the videos for the boss fights and get kicked from group
Option2: say nothing and see what happens.
@xshipwrec then you get told to log onto another character and link your chievo, ez
"Say nothing and see what happens"
No chievo, no gear, you won't pass inspection.
@xshipwrec this was my typical naxx experience but I should update that ulduar was a good experience. Found a group that took a min to review the fights before going in and had no issues as OT.
"Welcome to pugs dilemma, the world where everyone wants to be given a chance to prove themselves, but no one wants to have their time wasted."
man, the fact
The answer to that is for people to treat others what they would like others to treat them
@@octapusxft problem, they don't care, it's only a game for them. they can't respect themself so respect someone on internet? impossible for this generation
I'd be infinitely more shocked if this DIDN'T happen.
tbh with the parse culture we have right now it would only make sense to judge people by the parses they do and not just gs alone
Unfair to call out my main Arthasdeathkillerx like that in a video...
Thought he was talking about me, until I realized I am Arthasdeathkillerxxx
Make your own pugs /ignore idiots, done
I think the primary issue with gearscore is that it requires addons. I don't really mind it otherwise, because there will always be some kind of metric to estimate your overall power. The attitude of a lot of people is ridiculous though.
It's a dumb addon that has no idea of the strength of items. All it does is assign ilvl another numerical value.
@@iyaramonk Yeah, but since the ilvl in WotLK does such a piss-poor job of telling us what the actual power level of an item is, there had to be some other way to make estimations. It's obviously possible to create an addon that checks estimated power through gear, class and spec, but that's more work than most people able to make addons would be willing to put in. It is also more information than necessary as all that's necessary is a rough estimation.
@@CottidaeSEA Yeah but it's better to just check logs quickly. High gearscore isn't going to ensure you are not a credit card swiping moron that facerolls the game. And you don't need 99 parses to clear content, just be decent. If you're going to be selective about your pugs, gearscore is a terrible way to go about it is all I'm saying.
@@iyaramonk Logs are not great either. They reward selfish players who do nothing but focus on dps, often while ignoring mechanics and being a general nuisance.
They also don't say anything about performance compared to content difficulty, it instead compares all logs, meaning the people who might've had a decent but not amazing log early on will look worse later on, despite it being more than enough to clear the content, as evident by the fact that the log was even recorded in the first place.
It is better than gearscore though, but I don't think it's necessary. Gearscore provides enough information at a glance and as long as you don't stare blindly at it you'll have a very useful tool.
The only people who complain about this grey parse Naxx.
There are two things you can do when faced with unrealistic or unecessary GS/achieve requirements when you are LFG. 1. moan and open forum threads about it or 2. START YOUR OWN GROUP. It can be scary, but I've been clearing T7 in one evening with different groups I formed of different random people for weeks now. It's so easy to form a group because people are tired of having the unrealistic requirements forced upon them. Being in a an active guild helps as well, I know many guild including mine are basically on hiatus till Ulduar, but the point still stands. At the end of the day, as stupid as it sounds because T7 is a piece of piss, people need to learn to drive and not always be the passenger getting carried.
welfare epics started in TBC; not wrath
in fact, it was before patch 2.4.0 when they released those T6-equivalent BoJ rewards, that I started hearing about welfare epics
Also my recollection is that it referred to PVP gear being brought into raids
Also epics from holiday bosses equals welfare epics. Started in TBC
Gearscore was always a braindead thing. Gear doesn't replace skill. How many times we invited high gearscore people then said person dying to the easiest mechanics
Bro people complained about the T0.5 epic dungeon set in actual vanilla WoW. People always whine when they think they wasted their time and other people don't have to waste theirs
@@brandondavidson4085 people do t get upset cause they think they "wasted" time it's that they feel any shitter can easily get equivalent gear for no skill.
Willie thanks for continuing to make videos! Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling watching these, I don’t play anymore so these are great throwbacks for me!
Just wait, on the 23rd when the 2nd braindead to kill Vault boss is added, you'll see the 'LFM VoA 25 SPEC RUN, whisp spec and GS(4200+ ONLY)'
This is why Classic Era on Mankrik cluster is fun. Raids are pug from MC to Naxx. No gearscore just always looking for people. If you are attuned you will find a raid.
This is also why I went back to classic era
Actually the terms Welfare Epics was first seen by me on the Sunwell patch in the original TBC
Issue with GS is I was clearing HMs on PTR with a fully imported character geared team. 4200 is enough for most 25HMs, 3800 is enough for 25normal. When I play on my alts in an unnamed guild to try and find groups I do see lots of groups requiring a lot higher than whats needed which is what I remember from WOTLK. Otherwise you've really got to run a GDKP or form your own since most people don't run normal ms>os runs. People are requiring higher because the don't want to progress on the content though, although I would say 4000 is more than enough for normal 25 runs and most people want higher.
I couldn't get into a Naxx 10 man pug because they required a 3850 gear score and mine, with 6 pieces of 25 man Naxx gear, was only 3750 lol!
dude i was able to be top 10 dps(25 M Naxx) with a 3100 GS with some people below me having like 4k gs it dont mean jackshit sometimes people are stupid
@@hcs626 You playing warlock? That shit is crazy even with bad gear. My warrior is somewhere around 4k, but... it's a warrior. I hit like a wet noodle. I do at least show up on the dps charts though. Often in the 4-6th position in dps and I play arms, not fury, so I'd say I do pretty well. I've had some warlocks absolutely destroy me though.
@@CottidaeSEA Cuz warrior.
I have seen several 4k gs requirements for naxx 10 on my server! :D
@@TheeFreakiishlyz Yeah... warrior is just really bad right now. It'll get better, but damn.
It keeps being repeated that Welfare Epics was a Wrath term - it wasn't. It started in TBC and was talking about PvP gear.
My first memory of the term "welfare epics" actually comes from Karazhan referring to the loot at the end of the chess event, but it could be older than that.
@@ckcunningham5 It was from the pvp gear because you didnt even have to win any games to get it. You could make arena team, lose 10 games, repeat that every week and get epics from it.
The community doesn’t deserve classic. The insistence on min maxing easy stuff has never made sense. From demanding flasks and world buffs for ZG to now. I don’t get why people wanted classic so bad just to treat it like retail.
Because they're from retail. I played on Nostalrius and Lightshope private servers and it was never like this. Boosting and gdkp and the min/max meta were on the fringe minority. Best experience with vanilla. Once boosting and gdkp took over way back in classic, I knew this community was just retail players.
Then go find another community. None of u can tell someone what they deserve. Not a single one of you.
@@Valvad0ss I did. I, like many others stopped playing classic because the community turned the game into something it’s not and ruined it.
Solution: you just have to run so much content over and over people recognize you. Yes this mean daily heroics etc as we all have alts but theirs will recognize your main again from the other runs. Works for me although my GS and ilvl are high anyways no doubt partially thanks to just getting out there everyday and doing content. Pumping lfg channel instead of passive signups also a pretty good way to recognized
Yikes. And now game became work. Exactly the thing that drove me off. :/
@@Sunshrine2 yeah next thing these guys will tell you is to buy gold 🤣🤣🤣 its actually sad
5:59 we did, and it was better, and idgaf what anyone says lol. I can scale everest, or i can take a heli ride to the top. Which one will i remember? Which one might i fail at? Failure is part of the allure. Not a money maker no, but the best of times for hardcore MMO enthusiasts like myself. Now everyone mostly just bitches about how much better it was, while wanting to cut our the entire journey and Zerg to end game, then quit a month later lol. YOU KNOW i'm right.
Gearscore is a funny addon when people try to use it for Tanks. Your gear score means nothing because a number of the BIS items for are lvl 174 from JC or essence of gossamer. That also doesn't account for defense cap, avoidance, threat sets, etc. You also have to take spec into consideration, which will often shift at certain stat thresholds and may be ideal for speed runs with overgeared healers but will not suffice in a chaotic pug environment.
I keep running into BDKs that are you using that max threat tri spec and they over extend themselves in heroics and just straight up die because they traded off their mitigation and utility talents for extra threat they have no use for in heroics. It's kind of funny really because they just used the cookie cutter spec they read online without adjusting their gearing accordingly.
Gearscore is a rough estimate at an overview. Any decent raidleader/player knows that gear choice matters. When taht 5k holy paladin gets inspected and hes rocking full mp5 and crit pieces, you can tell right away he doesnt know whats going on.
I liked DKP. A good piece would drop and the first guy would spend all his points. Next time it dropped someone would buy it for 1/5 the points the first guy paid. 😆 You could get a lot of gear with a little bit of patience.
I think EPGP is just a better version of DKP imo. I've used pretty much every loot system and it's my favorite.
Nah it's cringe
It was and is the worst loot system ever made. MS > OS is unironically better
@@xplicitmike THIS or the 2R system are WAY better then DKP. I also like the idea of groups using a +1 system to help disrtibute loot more evenly these all are way better systems then the corrupt DKP systems
It literally doesn't matter if you're in a guild. We used mastrloot to keep people honest, but it was always just a /roll. The guild knew if you really needed a piece or not. The guild knew how much you needed a piece. The guild knew if you'd gotten really lucky the past several rolls and someone else needed a turn, even if you did roll high again.
Of the community, for the community, by the community.
The reliance on PUG raids is a symptom of a system that's not set up to prioritize a close-knit community. Raiding should primarily be a guild activity. Guild membership and commitment needs to be incentivized and prioritized.
I stand behind the notion that gearscore and eventually the introduction of "ilvl" on your character sheet in Cata is what killed the casual side, and eventually hurt the hardcore side of WoW. WoW originally stood out from other MMOs by having an incredible amount of build variety, gearscore and ilvl forced Blizzard to streamline as many things across as many metrics as possible to improve balance. This caused a game that was once designed around numerous variable classes and builds into one with 4 distinct roles, each with only slight flavour changes across classes/specs.
Blizzard should have seen people trying to simplify and streamline the game and respond by adding variability back in, not giving them more official methods of tracking their streamlined efforts, and even emphasizing it within in-game tools(lfd having ilvl requirements).
What are you on about
I'm almost positive that ilvl has always been on gear. It was just hidden until Wrath. But the data miners had it all figured out anyway. That's why they just went ahead and added it officially.
As for them streamlining the game, that's completely true. People always talk about how fun and tightly tuned the retail raids are, and that might be true, but the cost for that was a lot of the variety in gear and classes that the game used to have. They removed a lot of the RPG feel in order to make it a better video game.
@@seanwilliams7655 ILvl was hidden on gear, it also was not present on your character sheet (my actual claim), but it was extremely variable and unreliable up until Wrath. They streamlined gear and stat growth, it became reliable, and instead of figuring out a way to limit or deter the min-max process they just owned it and leaned into it with changes like streamlining the talent trees, introducing hard rotations, locking in playstyle using the mastery mechanic, and limiting spell books based on spec choice at lvl 10. All came in during Cata, all arguable made the progression in the game far more linear and killed the ability to make your character your own.
I guess I'm wrong to state that gearscore is at fault, but it's a major signifier of a problem that was leaned into instead of fixed up until the talent revamp of Dragonflight.
why would they do something like that when literally EVERYONE back then begged them to do.. exactly what they did?
The direction that blizzard has gone ever since cata, is basically what the community asked.
But the problem is.. that wow's community is kinda shit.
They will ask for something, they will hate the very thing they asked for, and then they will cry and blame blizzard for it.
And repeat.
@@akhsdenlew1861 Yes, but they had, in the past, removed elements that simplified the game to the point of hurting it. Decursive and its removal immediately comes to mind. In WoD they recoded the way certain boss abilities spoke to addons which prevented DBM from completely simplifying certain raid encounters as well.
Blizzard knew that they needed to look out for things that completely broke the game. They just gave in with iLvl though.
ah yes i was expecting this to happen, welcome to the warmane experience
Well said brother!
Nah warmane is More blizzlike Than classic wotlk:)))
@@doncorleone1720 at this point yeah, but i was reffering to the absurd GS requirements some pugs want for even the easiest of instances.
Even if I pass the required GS needed to get into a raid, I avoid the raids requiring it.
I avoid the raids that dont require it cause Ive been in too many 3h naxx 10 rofl
Yeah what a dumb mentality, fucking scrubs watch this channel I swear
So you dont raid?😂
I remember crashing vent or TeamSpeak to throw everything into disorder.
Only did to assholes... I kept many vents and TeamSpeak down for days .
I might have been behind creating huge lag on certain groups who needed a lessons.
Link GS and Achieve started immediately after WOTLK released this time round.
Mmm need an Add-on for Logs in Game it seems. Does it exist???????
Call me crazy, but a form of spell batching feels like its back, on the live server I keep getting the " i have no target" message even though I have a mob targeted. This happens more in dungeons when we are clearing trash. Gets frustrating. at least a 300 millisecond delay
that all can be boiled down the the very true sentence "History repeats itself".
The irony of gearscore is that, at least on my server, 2 weeks into the expansion, people were requiring 4k-4.2k gearscore to join their pugs (aka be BiS or close to it). Nowadays, just have pre-bis and you're good to go for most pugs. In fact, the highest required gearscore I saw for a pug was around 3.8k but only for Achievement stuff like Immortal Naxx or 6 Minute Maly.
Gear score is so overhyped. These people are annoying AF.
my server usually looks for 3.5k+ for random naxx pug. os3d and naxx achievement runs usually having a 4 or 4.1k min
Show me your logs i can tell how u got raised
i had pug with naxx 10 demanding 4k+ gs on Thekal(fresh server)
@@YepMarko really? so im the luckiest here with my 2k-ish gs, carried by friends on naxx 10 😅🤣
The GS requirements i have seen have been way more lax than what it was back in retail. People I have seen were only asking for around 3.5k GS to get into naxx 25s which isn’t even that bad. Only strict GS checks I’ve seen have been GDKP’s when taking on Carry dps and those normally also want high parses.
I had someone snap at me when I was doing LFM for a Naxx 10 achieve run and demanded 4k+ gs. It's no problem finding people with decent gear so why would you let some undergeared get a free ride? Let them gear up first the same as we all went through.
I dont know if it's the same numbers as back in retail but I remember people asking only a bit more than that for icc
@@Dennis-ud2nh Asking 4k Gs for Naxx 10 is asking for near BiS geared players XD. Yes you were way over asking even for an achv run.
@@Darthellawayc I still have old ass clips of people asking for 6k+ for ICC 25 normal and people asking for 5.8k+ for ICC10 normal. People got outta hand with the requirements back when wrath was live.
yeah 3.5k is pretty much heroic dungeon geared and ppl are talking like its impossible to get in a run
Oh classics will never be classics as the playerbase and the players have changed.
I thought the community gathered as a whole when vanilla classic came out and said if this continues to future expansions two things should never return:
Reforging
And
Gear Score
So, when I started seeing people mentioning it and asking for it I simply rolled my eyes.
GearScore was one of the big things that pushed me away from the game. It ramped up the (already bad) toxicity between players to a degree I didn't want to be around anymore. It's amazing how bad people will act over a little number.
Man I'm so happy to be on Atiesh horde side.
Not seen a single post about achives or GS.
It’ll never end. I quit classic because I geared my main to 4300+ gear score in the first month and I couldn’t get my alts into anything but heroics. Even at pre-Bis nobody would take an alt.
I started late into wotlk classic. Geared through heroics annd badges, bought few pieces from ah and then tried getting into naxx....yay good luck with 3.6 gs. I had hit cap, was enchanted and had gems. Min for nax 10 was 3.8. Yeah thank you. I quitted last month cause maly and archavon isnt what i wanted.
@@diegradebanane pretty much my exact experience. I had a guy pass me up on the Maly speed achieve and I had the achieve on that character and linked it. The cherry on top was all the loot reserves. Sweaty old men reserving gear in pug runs is the most miserable anti-fun bullshit in wow. It was a nice nostalgia trip but a short one.
@@na976 pretty much yes.
Just do what i did always in wow when you cant get into groups; make your own group lol
Lmaaaaaaao, if you had 4300+ you should have pretty good knowledge of boss mechanics. Quit bitchin you lazy ass and make your own group.... smh.
Played Vanilla and early TBC then dropped it. Picked up WotLK in Sept 2009 right after TOC was launched. I reached 80 on my main (Troll Resto Shaman) and was in my friend's guild. Low pop server so not much competition. I got invited to 25 TOC and while rocking greens/blues, I was 3rd on healing charts. The guild saw my potential and took me on some raids to get some purples. I was constantly 1 or 2 for healers (the Resto Druid was my competition). I was brought in for 10 man Heroic Lich King as the main healer with our Disc Priest and was main healer for Herald of Titans achievement.
I logged on to my era copy of my toon yesterday. I only had 3 pieces of tier gear - I had mostly blues on.
You really had to earn it back then... waaaay back in 2019-2020 classic haha
Is there an addon that puts wcl parses on tooltip ingame for wrath?
lmfao 🤣 "you see lots of grey? well that is unfortunate" bahaha im dying
I remember doing a dungeon back in WotLK where there was an unholy death knight with spectacular epic gear and he was doing _by far_ the least DPS. Even the tank was doing more.
@@Lewtable what happen if u say the f word?
I think GS shouldn’t base on ilevel, but on stat weights.
For example, if I equip my highest gs items as a fury warrior, I actually lose quite a lot of dps, because some items, like dark moon card greatness, have lower ilevel despite being SUPER good.
Gs should take into account your stats weights, base stats, haste breakpoints, talents, etc etc.
This would mean that, if you didn’t get/enchant your gear and talent properly, you would have a much lower GS.
Small but effective way to improve the efficiency of the addon
That's where parses come in.
We have a 3800 arcane mage that consistently does 9k dps because he is itemized perfectly.
bis fury warrior rn are still like nearly 4.4k gs like mad lads cause of double 226 weapons and a quick inspect will fix that. Its why its also a benchmark bellow 3.5kgs you just know the guy didnt even do a couple heroics get badge items and buy a couple cheap boe specially this late in the phase
Yes, the content may be easy, but just yesterday I spent 3 hours in a 10 man because the tank kept pulling with no healers, the other healer dced for half the raid so I was stuck solo healing for the most part, and no dps passed 5k dps with many of them having many pieces of raid gear (we never finished the raid). This is why these systems are in place. This is also why I believe gearscore means nothing and logs are the only tell of a player's skill and success (except for maybe healers).
I'm top 50 Rdruid on my server.
I got healing parses unintentionally because my first few logged raids were full of turds taking way too much damage.
Afterwards, when I found a team that didn't suck, we just 2 healed 25man, thus more parses.
And? Thats the whole point its a social game. For the adventure
@@newguyiswinning Many adventure games are built around adventuring either with friends or by yourself. If you are wanting to adventure and experience the content with random folks, especially if you are going in blind, you have to be willing to make sure that 24 other people are ok with it.
Its like going to a party that does not allow drinking, getting sloppy drunk from some booze you snuck in, getting kicked out, then wondering "Why did I get kicked out? Parties are meant to be fun!"
For example with myself.. I'm roughly 1900 io as a unholy dk.. I do 65-70k overall dps in most dungeons aside from academy cause cleave bloat at 14's.. I can easily do 16-17's with those numbers but people want me to have already done dungeons at 17's to join 17's.. I dont even have 4 piece and doing the numbers I'm doing. It's crazy..
Meanwhile they invite people that are 2100-2400 and those people become toxic and leave the key if someone dies or misses a kick.
People are your worst enemy when it comes to pugs for real.. No number assigning and gear checks or log checks will bring a perfect player. It's all about good old voice chats.. If they feel a vibe with you and you all can relax, be focused and get stuff done with good call outs then all will be well. But if they sound like a up tight asshole who is nothing but big talk and nothing to show for it then kick.
I absolutely despise the Gearscore + link achieve. as a solo player (not many friends to play with ) It's literally a detriment to the game. How can you expect someone to get to said Gearscore, and get said achievement, if THEY CAN'T GET GEARSCORE AND ACHIEVEMENT CAUSE THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED IN BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE GS AND ACHIEVEMENT. It literally makes no sense
Dude join a fking guild it’s not rocket science
@@jamesmorseman3180 I've tried getting into guilds ya douchebag. Can't seem to stay in one, cause im casual. I work everyday and don't have all the time like most of you keyboard warriors to play this game. it's a completely fucked system
This is so right, spot on. I mean how the **** did the original people get there and finish the raid/dungeon in the first place? Another thing I hate is, seeing those announces that say, "Forming Ulduar 10 HC, (certain loot locked), etc...". 'Nuff said..!
pressure shouldn't go to dps and healers imo. what i would ask is simply if they know their class and are competent players. just have ok gear to pull through the bosses and the only time i see GS being used is for achievement runs. Not for a normal run where a bunch of guys are looking for gear and having a good time raiding. Though the one role where not so much of GS but raw stats matter the most are for tanks specifically. Like what's your defence? your Hit rating? how much HP you have? how well can you pull threat? You got to be able to as a tank hold your own in boss fights because if the tanks die the whole raid wipes. You can make it through a 25man fight if one healer or even two healers are down or some dps get killed but as soon as a tank is down its almost game over for the fight.
and I main a tank (protection paladin) in the game. I understand the importance to the role and i do my best to carry through.
I remember playing low level bgs in wotlk and the current state is unplayable. Can’t level alts or twink or even get a queue to pop. That’s a big disappointment to me
i like the part where he scrolls thru trade chat talking about how many people are requiring high gearscore or a link to achievements, and yet literally zero of the messages shown have either of those requirements 2:12 not even saying hes wrong just funny lol
The reintroduction of gearscore as a whole is so unbelievably silly. It would have been possible to adapt gearscore to any previous and following expansion. This did not happen for obvious reasons
Doesn't stop people from using it now, just because it was used back then. Peak stupidity *facepalm*
Green log player here. Purple here grey there. What happened to I listen and don't do stupid stuff? I hate logs.
I'd be surprised if this DID NOT happened.
I remember being fully decked on ICC 25 man gear,shadowmourne in hand and people still asked me for achievements...
You can buy whatever you want im gdkps, so why would shadowmourne be a viable feature to show off?
wait we now have an lfd tool as in a dungeoun finder ? the random one?
Thanks for a nice video! Does anyone know what this song is called?
I had 3.6 gs before I quitted and I got in NO Naxx10 raid, cause gear wasnt good enough....i also asked for 25 and nope. For 25 I unde4stand it, but not for 10 man...
LFM Naxx 10, 4.3k gs required, inspecting gear at bank, link achieve. MS>OS+1 key, all BoEs, and all cloth gear HR
If I see people asking for gearscore I right click and use Report > Inappropriate Communication, tick every option and write "Gearscore" in the box underneath before submitting it. I've been encouraging others on my realm to do this through LFG and Trade as well when I see people doing it, reason being that if enough people start doing this Blizzards automated system will silence that persons account and they will not be able to speak on any character until they speak to customer support, and when customer support keep seeing "Gearscore" as the reason for people submitting these reports then something might be done about it as it is costing the company money in the form of employee time. If you hate this "Link GS and Achi" crap as much as I do then please do this yourselves and spread the word!
As a raid geared healer for H dungeons I just grab the first 3 DPS and tank I see and go, if they suck it's just practice for me keeping them alive.
For raids there just isn't an easy answer, everyone needs gear so everyone should be able to come but you also want to finish and do so in a practical amount of time.
I think it us reasonable to want the majority of the group to at least have gear one tier below the content you want to do. Questing blues for heroics, heroic/10man loot for 25man for example
Just this week (the week before p2 launches) my friend got kicked from a naxx 25 for not having enough gear. He was inspected by the raid leader and told it was okay, then kicked just before they started. Very dumb.
I got denied from two separate heroic+ yesterday because the gear score on my alt was *only* 4350. Clown world.
I've seen people checking gear scores for daily heroics.
i agree with this. and its also why i think wotlk ISNT the best expansion.
time to quit again i guess lol. Same reasons i quit back in the day so we've come full circle.
I can't say I'm opposed to the use of Gearscore, because as you said, obtaining epics is easy enough, reliably run your daily Heroics and you'll soon have enough emblams for key pieces of gear on top of the epic drops. Linking achievements however is a slippery slope, because you can find yourself in a Catch 22 situation that you can't complete the raid to obtain the achievement because no one will invite you without it. So far I have only seen the requirement to link achievement in the case where a raid group is going for a specific goal other than simply clearing the raid, such as immortal runs, we as players need to be vigilant in ensuring we don't start arbitrarily excluding players from end game content.
If I'm leading a pug of 25 people I don't want to take people who will need to learn the mechanics for each boss. There are definitely low effort people who don't bother looking up tacts beforehand. And when you're leading 25 strangers for a 2 hour raid, you need to keep things smooth. The experienced people are not gonna have the patience to wipe several times while rookies are learning. That's not what they're used to, so that's not what they expect when they join your raid.
@@Dennis-ud2nh Well the issue with that is a lot of people who pug are on alts, they might have done the raid countless of times already on their main but the alt won't have any achievments.
@@Mason1968PL doesnt take too long to link main logs or achievements while having decent starter gs on the alt most ppl whining just want to get carried for real do your heroics get a workable toon and youll get into runs its not rocket science
@@Sco777owel1 Heroic gear is about 3,5k GS, people ask a lot more than that for normal Nax runs. My problem isn't with the fact they don't invite everyone, i just think there are good and bad methods of filtering players.
@@Mason1968PL At some point pugging is like tinder like the lead will take the hotest pick at a glance just keep applying never had trouble gettting in a raid after doing my heroics and a 10 man. Like yeah maybe not the first one but just keep applying and dont get beaten down by a couple rejections might not even be because of gearscore the lead is trying to build a decent comp too
I may be the odd one out, but when pugging to fill a spot I just had people explain me a fight in the raid, if they knew the mechanics, then they know what to do.
yesterday I was excited to going on raids for the first time, had all of my gear purple, bis, and even some raid gear from H+
and no one wanted to invite me to naxx or obsidian sanct because my GS was too low
I literally cant get any better gear without raids...
Can we all take a moment to respect the Monty Python 'The Four Yorkshireman' reference. Brilliant. Probably just me that picked up on it.... ?
Wrath back then in a nutshell.
Sit in Dalaran waiting for queue to get emblems to upgrade gearscore, and play peggle whilst you wait
Its simple to see why Raiding became more and more accessible. Its simple business. When you spend millions of dollars on content that only 5% or fewer of your player base sees, and you give the other 95% basically nothing, you will start to lose that 95% of your player base.
Wrath was the happy medium everyone remembers. Sure, the starting raids were easy, but it did get harder and with some unique challenges thrown in. Yes, purples lost their unique Value, but it was easier to find a replacement or start a pug if things failed.
I am all for hard content, content that I will probably never see, but it has to be proportionate dev time. Its the main reason why Blizzard during Wrath forward, started to really lean heavily on the daily idea and create new areas/whole zones for the scrubs to play every patch cycle. You either have to make the content braindead (Wrath Launch Heroics) or later LFR, or create new shit for the slackers. You can do the hardcore route, but look at Wildstar. WoW would have had a slower decline but if raiding percentages stayed at 5% of people clearing last content, Retail WoW would have been under 1 million subs ages ago.
Wrath was an expansion were friends and family type guilds really thrived in raiding.
@@iyaramonk Family friendly guilds thrived more in Vanilla. Played all on live. My guild in Vanilla was family friendly and better than anything I saw the entirety of Wrath for that type of guild. Only reason guilds thrived in raiding b/c the first tier was just a beefed up dungeon. You didn't see those guilds hitting HMs in Ulduar with the rest of us hardcore guilds.
This is why the sweet spot for MMORPG's was 99-07 or so.
@@EQOAnostalgia that's becouse MMORPG'S were THE place to socialize as well.
Now socializing is just out of the question, everyone plays MMORPGS like a single player game.
But truth is that MMORPGS are not good at single -playing, compared to actual single player games.
Now everyone socialize on social media 24/7 anyway... they don't feel the need to chat in WoW as well.
Also gamers back then were just more... Romantic.
It's more about the humans and their lifestyles than the games.
The games are actually a lot better compared to 99-07.
@@davidfence6939 Why would they be hitting up hm's lol
I have had groups for low level dungeons not except me because I don’t use boa’s. Was told they were trying to do multiple runs as fast as possible but little did they know full groups get you more xp
My guild still uses DKP and has done since molten core. We have never had any issues with distribution. The only time we've ever had to LC anything was 4 horsemen making sure all the warriors got their 4set before others.
WoW has gone to being a loot collector/speedrun rather than a social game. Biggest indication of that is Mythic+. Instead of taking your time, doing fights right and having fun, you rush rush rush pump out as much damage as you can even if you're sacrificing tactics, prioritize shortcuts, then do it all over again seconds later.
If youve had any experience with classic players u know these metrics are needed cause trying your hardest to do well in the raid just to have jimmy the guy who goes afk in the middle of boss fights win the roll for a bis item, forcing you to roll the dice again next week. Its alot less toxic when everyone puts in similar effort
If you end up having to deal with Jimmy the guy who goes afk every single week because of pugs, you might want to consider getting a guild and running with them. Is better to complain at someone you know than complain for a random nobody you might not see again.
Tbf gearscore and IO is usually required for most pugs on live
Welfare epics originally referred to the season 1/2 pvp sets in BC :p
Gearscore exists for a reason. Sure, you can look people up on warcraft logs and that's the ONE better alternative, but if you don't want to do that and just want to put a quick pug together, inviting everyone who has a 4k+ gearscore to your weekly naxx pug will guarantee that the player has more health, and will do slightly more damage, even if they're a shitter and they die, than a shitter who doesn't have good gear.
One thing in life is certain: gamers will always optimize the fun out of any game.
The evolution to get into a raid in wow has changed over the years, first was having the achievent then gear score, now ppl check your parses, if you parse less than 80 you will get ur ass kicked from the raid or not even getting an invite
instead of gearscore, people can easily demand/use warcraftlogs, to get a proper gauge of a player instead of a number based on gear and achievements
I don't play anymore, but I had an LVL 80 UD rogue. I wanted to run some instances on heroic but my “gear score” was not good enough, and it got to a point where I can't run anything because of that…the number, so I quit instead. Furthermore, I'd love to play again, but that's what ultimately made me quit
If you are starting a pug run, the ppl you in ite can be trash/good with gear or trash/good without gear. If you ask for gear score you remove at least the latter. Achievements are obviously proof you "know" the encounter to some extent. Another variable removed. I never start my own runs, but I can understand why gear score and achievements are a thing. Noone wants to waste time on clueless ungeared ppl. Undergeared and clueless enough to roll on everything because they have no clue what they should go for.
Gear score is so dumb lol. I ALWAYS lie about it and do just fine in raids. GS is and was one of the worst ways to determine if someone was a good player or not :)
LOL called it. One big reason I had my fun at launch and got out after I had my fun. Not going through that degenerate crap again.
I remember the day GearScore reared it's head for the first time. That was when the "adventure" and "community" truly died.
Congrats on officially announcing Ulduar via Blizzard, WillE!
Was really enjoying wrath till I tried getting groups for normal dungeons(Druid tank/heal)and almost all rejected me because I'd not done it before or wanted almost HC geared people. Logged out went to Dragon flight and cant see myself going back now.
The moment they announced mythic+ for wotlk was the moment I knew I wouldn't touch it. Now I play proper m+ in dragonflight, because the game is actually designed with m+ in mind.
@@OWnIshiiTrolling Wotlk HC + isn't Mythic + at all. Try reading it again. :)
@@ulasdenizakyurek5055 Ulduar will bring mythic 5 mans with affixes. I would be very surprised if ToC or ICC won't come with key levels. But they won't use literal keys that you level, because they are very careful to not use the same terminology as in retail.
My main issue with it is that it isn't classic anymore. It's wotlk reforged.
I don't want to play with people who didn't put in the work. It sucks if you pushed phase 1 BIS to have a guy with lower than 4k gearscore come in, get carried and take your gear. The phase 1 raids are still there, and people still run them. That might get some people mad, but I think most progression raiders feel the same.
I played on a WOTLK private server for years on end after retail ended... And people kept using both GS and achis for invites all the time for all those years too.
The problem was, the server was basically P2W, you could quite literally buy absolutely every BiS item for 5-20€ a piece, making GS lose the last shred of usefulness it may have had.
And yes, I too bought a few items. Mostly a few trinkets and an LK25HC weapon for my main, but only after getting everything else legitimately and grinding the raids for months on end without luck.
People who require a certain gearscore are usually looking to be carried. I avoid them.
Different world of warcraft from 2008, the stat and achievement gate keeping wont turn off so many people because way less people play the game, its as simple as that.
The inevitability of this is why I didn't return.
The game is trash. Vanilla is the only version worth playing.
@@feo130 you’re insane
@@feo130 you mean the world buff-staying offline untill raid Meta?
yea that sounds fun.
Vanilla is actually a good game.
But the problem is that we know exactly what to do.
And we do it by sucking the fun out of it.
What we need is a vanilla-type NEW game, with a new world...that noone knows.
Vanilla itself, at this point is pretty useless.. i'd take WOTLK every single time compared to vanilla.
Classes were horribly balanced, gear was worse in terms of balance.
PvP was... oh my god THE worst in terms of balance.
And u know.. back then, it didn't matter.. people would play whatever the fuck they liked.
But now they will just play warrior or mage.
And they will be right.
I could have sworn welfare epics came from justice badges in TBC, since you could buy the epic gear from the vendors without ever stepping in a raid etc.
Yet, those epics were not exactly Tier level gear.
Sure, som of the pieces on sale were BIS for a while for some classes, but you could not gear yourself completely from that vendor and deal respectable dmg. Even some HC dung blues were better stat wise.
@@Passonator11 yeah but I'm talking about where the term came from, and the fact you could get purples without doing anything that traditionally awarded a purple was where 'welfare epic' came from as a term
@@Zorayah fair enough, I consider the term to describe the "catch up" mechanic in the game. But unlike ZG or ZA, for the wotlk (and BC) vedor epics you could just farm dungeons for it.
Maybe the reason why I do not consider the BC vendor epics such a handout, is the fact that BC HC's were hard upon launch. I have fond memories of grinding for my badge supplied epic off hand.
However at that point, I already had a few crafted epic pieces and couple of pre-bis dungeon blues.
@@Passonator11 I mean that's what the player base started calling them, I sucked at the game in tbc and barely even had 'welfare' epics myself haha, wow players are gonna be wow players tho!
@@Zorayah interesting, was it in original or reboot? Cause I can't say I recall anybody calling them that back then. I only came across the expression once WOTLK allowed you to purchase Tier gear with badges.
Hi Will!
"Welfare Epics" was around in BC, it predates Wrath.
I was very annoyed by the gear score addition in original WoW and reliving this in the second go round it is somehow even more annoying because now you have to contend with “checking parses” on top of it…. And for Naxx 10 no less… so dumb.
get gud or stay in goldshire with the leper gnomes
>if you see grey parses, you won't want to bring them
I play a Fury warrior, roughly 3900 GS. On fights where I can sit there and just go to town on the boss, I can average 3500 DPS. Definitely not as high as DKs, warlocks, rogues, or boomkins, but still perfectly viable for Naxx10/25. I know the fights like the back of my hand, tanked, healed, and DPSed them all. I've never died on the dance, despite seeing much better geared players die on it all the time. But because I currently only have one run in Naxx25, a majority of my parses are grey, and also because I got a late start with this warrior (yay new guild that was needing a Fury warrior).
Would that mean I don't get invited? Simply because I'm not sweating it as much as other DPS?
This is excactly what it means. 3.5k dps is unexcuseable. People are pumping 8k+ that means they still do more than you even tho they are dead half of the time. Get pre bis, enchants and then some 10man gear before you join 25man. Then you are easily able todo 5k + atleast.
@LongPape >3.5k DPS is inexcusable
Apologies for not having dual Betrayers or even Death's Bites.
>it's okay to die repeatedly as long as you're doing 8k+
Can't do 8k if you're dead. And dying in *Naxx* outside of a full wipe is laughable.
And I'm not blowing nearly 2k on Berserker or the 110 AP enchant on a fucking *Titansteel Destroyer*, especially so close to Ulduar.
Also also, my warrior is herb/alchemy. Not gonna chase that Engineering/JC combo everyone and their mother is going for.
@@Dimumouto 8k was meant for when they dont die. Me then implying that they die half way through the fight then means that they will have 4k aka still 500 above you.
Nobody says anything about dual betrayer.
Its not even hard to go for atleast 5k dps since that is reachable with prebis basically.
Be honest how many heroics did you do so far?
How often did you go halls of lightning for your prebis weapon?