The cards I'm going to give serious consideration for in my Blue/Black commander decks. Patreon / edhdeckbuilding TCGPlayer Affiliate Link www.tcgplayer....
Great list to be honest. I play connive//concoct in my ludevic//olag I usually reanimate stuff but it you never know... the two card Im least interested is motion rain and lim dul vault (this one is either expensive price tag for my taste and a little bit unfun also very long tun ahead) but you pulled so may interesting stuff
@@dariocampanella7992 If you like connive // concoct for reanimation you should check out Incarnation Technique. Also they just reprinted Lim-Duls vault so its about $3 now. I picked up my copy
Though mill is an aspect of my thief's guild deck. Zareth San is my commander and there are plenty of shenanigans afoot. Its a little clunky using zareth but I usually apply light mill to get some goodies into the grave then have at it. One dimir car I love to play, with enough mana, phyrexian infiltrator with some tokens. Hold priority, fill the stack with activations and steal creatures lol
I very recently posted my decklist for Araumi on Reddit, and kinda got into an argument that my deck didn't have enough enchantment removal. Ended up adding more counter spells.
One of the reasons why Hullbreacher deserved a ban while Notion Thief escaped unscathed was color identity. You had Izzet wheel decks like Locust God or Rielle the Everwise slotting him in and windfalling to basically end the game right there, as the treasures would easily pay for the next wheel etc (which is even more toxic than Narset who just empties your opponents hands but doesn't give you the treasure mana). On top of that you had some pretty brutal Azorius stax decks that could accrue insane amount of value while limiting the rest of the table to one draw per turn cycle. Notion Thief on the other hand can basically only fit in dimir and grixis decks (occasionally spotted in esper and even rarer in sultai), and there it already has one major anti-synergy with the most notorious wheel commander, Nekusar. On top of that, the draw you get from Notion Thief can often whiff because you don't have the mana to cast any of the extra cards you draw when you wheel and oftentimes a Notion Thief + Wheel combo ends on a whimper as the Notion Thief player just sheepishly discards down to 7 (incidentally this can be decent for filling your graveyard but in Dimir there are much better effects for that). Without the extra treasure support from Hullbreacher to cast your new full grip, Notion Thief just isn't as scary.
I wanted to make this comment on your last video but it would have been a pretty late comment. Since you talked about the format changing through the years and some banned cards just aren’t as scary anymore (which I agree with) how would you and the magic community feel about doing a month trail run where some if not all banned cards are unbanned to see how “format shifting” they really are. Obviously with the really expensive cards you could just do proxies and ask other players if they are ok with you testing the banned cards.
March of the Machines is always a perfect counter to non-creature artifacts for Dimir decks. Turns all of them into creatures so your actual creature removal can finish them off. I actually included it in my Silumgar, the Drifting Death deck since Silumgar is a walking board wipe in my command zone depending on how many dragons I have. March of the Machines makes it easy for the deck to deal with those artifacts
I'm running you in the background while i rebuild my Dimir _"TRIBAL REMOVAL"_ and "RAMP 2 NOTHING" decks. Anyone who loves removal is ok in my book. Anyway, Continue running in the background. o7
To lend some insight on Hullbreacher, it was mostly banned (and not Notion Thief) because the HB gives you mana to spend on all of your wheel cards right away and can lead to chaining wheels together for an immediate win. The NT only gives you copious amounts of cards, and assuming you played this on your turn followed by a wheel, then you would have spent somewhere in the realm of 5-10 mana already giving you very little room to cast other spells, unless you've already ramped a TON. HB on the other hand gives you plenty of mana to wheel over and over again drawing out most if not all of your deck and if you have a Thassa's Oracle or Lab Maniac just like in your deck somewhere, then it becomes far too easy to win just by starting the HB combo. This can be started in as little as 4 mana, with enough gas to sustain a win if the deck is built for it.
I try to add Tidehollow Strix along with Baleful Strix to double my chances of drawing one early. Tidehollow Strix lacks the free card draw, but is otherwise functionally equivalent.
I throw in some bounce to remove specific artifacts and enchantments that stop me winning since dimir is very combo-y, i only really play zombies though in dimir and i'm considering going esper to add some more anything removal and take will out of the command zone
As a magic player my first idea to get more artifact and enchantment removal would be to combo with bounce and discard/wheel. Ofc only works if thats something you allready wanna do in dimir ^^
I miss my old Lazav mill deck. Mill is generally not great in EDH due to the fact you need to mill 300 cards instead of 60, but Lazav milled just to copy and steal stuff from opponents' graveyards which was really fun if extremely swingy
That's how you use mill in edh. Not to totally dissolve their deck, but to use their graves to benefit yourself, limit the answers they have against you, and defeat them another way. Like lazav uses it to become a creature you can use against your opponents, and anowon uses milling for card advantage.
I put in Vampire Nighthawk flying deathtouch and lifelink for 3 mana for the same reason as balefull strix, about removing artifacts and enchantments I just accept them and have more kill cards instead just to bad I can't remove them for that is the weakness in black and blue. And with luck counter spells can do that and can help that I do not lose my enchantments and artifacts.
The reason I think hullbreacher is banned is because hullbreacher is cheaper and less color intensive than notion thief and hullbreacher gives you mana rather than more cards. Meaning rather than having to discard 20+ cards assuming you have a max hand size. You can instead hullbreacher a wheel get loads of mana then cast your entire hand getting even more value. Of course it could also be a signpost ban as the strongest version of this effect
You don't need to play cards the help answer things you're weak at. Why play to your weakness. Accept your losses sometimes. The dimir cards that answer artifacts and enchantments are very very subpar.
Very bad take? Counter spells answer everything. If you don't play answers, your decks will lose to some random cards, like single boardwipe, or grave hate
Nightveil Predator is so good! I used to have it in a mutate deck that combined creatures with deathtouch and trample, it was my first pick for a mutate target. In Dimir decks I sometimes use Xenic Poltergeist to change an artifact into a creature when creature removal is all you have in hand (as long as I have other synergies/reasons to run it). It's cheaper than Karn Silver Golem and better card equity than Karn's Touch. For enchantment removal I use Aura Thief for any sacrifice theme, which isn't removal per se, but controlling all enchantments can sometimes be better. I also use Debt to the Kami or Pharika's Libation, which doesn't let you choose if they have more than one but will get rid of a one-off powerful enchantment at instant speed.
UB to me is the color of Subtlety, Manipulation, and Deception. Sadly, WotC generally sees Dimir as "that mill color" which is why I do my best to AVOID mill cards because they're simply not fun to play nor play against. It's just a gimicky burn deck that targets the library. Oh boy. My current UB commanders are Sivitri, Dragon Master and Rilsa Rael, Kingpin. I highly recommend Rilsa Rael, she is the strongest Initiative-focused commander and the Undercity fills a lot of holes and gaps that Dimir usually lacks. Sivitri does well if you design her like a spiked pillow fort, putting as many forced combat abilities as you can while making it so creatures have less and less power through board states; ultimately causing people to defeat themselves as they're forced to pay life to attack you with 0/4's. My hands-down favorite card is Countersquall, nothing makes me happier than slapping someone who thought they were playing a wincon in the face with 2 damage. It's a straight up backhand with the ring finger. My other favorite cards are Dimir transmute cards. You can fish out a lot of value with them, Clutch of the Undercity and Perplex are my favorites, Tolaria West is another good one as a land option (or a 0 drop fetch).
I dunno what you're talking about, cuz Dimir has the best artifact/enchantment removal in the game. It's called, "mill 'em before they can use 'em", lmao.
If trying to create some edh decks that are not cedh but high powered, but mostly trying to create a fun experience for the players, do you think notion thief + wheels are too unfun since it takes away opponents whole hands?
Havengul Lich is honestly terrible in just Dimir. You can't use mana of any color, so unless you have mana filtering or lots of treasures somehow, you can only really use your own creatures from grave with the Lich. Wouldn't really ever recommend over much better reanimation abilities.
Hullbreacher vs Notion Thief. You can’t play 28 cards after playing a wheel. But with Hullbreacher you can play ANYTHING. That makes Hullbreacher 10 times more potent. It simply wins games. Notion Thief does not. It just makes games long and boring.
I stopped building Dimir a while ago. It isn't a color combo that I feel is fun play more that it just wins. I feel like blue has the answers to everything because if you include bounce spells to your removal package you you make people waste mana resources for a couple turns. And black just gives you access to tutors which give you anything you want. And with that combo of colors you have your win condition faster than anyone else and protection of them. You forgot the thassa's oracle/demonic consultation two card win the game combo that should be in every Dimir deck that tutors. Because regardless of theme that's a two card instant win condition.
@@brandyourfan9244 I know he has said many times he doesn't think Thassa's oracle is casual. But in my experience every Dimir deck unless it is very tribal focused will have the combo regardless because it so easy to dominant strategy it. And not everyone sees the game as a more social aspect. So typically it's if it isn't in there why isn't it because you don't want to shell out the money for it. It a real problem for me with the pods I play with to see Dimir and I groan because I know how people are. Because I seen a ninja deck with yuriko where it has no business being in but was there anyway. And any mill strategy just had it along with the Jace and lab maniac. cEDH or not every game is about winning and that card combo makes your probability that much higher.
@@mrnekomaneki01 cEDH games are strictly about winning. I'd argue, that casual is more about the experience, with winning in mind of course. If every deck had the exact same win conditions, it would be repetitive and a little boring. Just tutor, combo, done. Rinse and repeat. If your playgroup leans more towards the cEDH mentality of winning ASAP with the optimal cards, more power to you. But I enjoy watching people build fun and interesting decks around the commanders they enjoy. It doesn't have to be optimal to be fun.
@@brandyourfan9244 I agree with you on prefering to see creative deck design which unfortunately is why I am kind of in a position where unless I run into a hand full of specific players at my LGS I don't even wanna play because of the pods. So I haven't been playing at all lately.
If trying to create some edh decks that are not cedh but high powered, but mostly trying to create a fun experience for the players, do you think notion thief + wheels are too unfun since it takes away opponents whole hands?
While you're correct that Dimir is lacking in Enchantment and Artifact removal, I'll quote an explosive Lazav Voltron player I know: *I find that card removal can be easily replaced by player removal.*
My Top 10 Dimir Staples (that weren’t mentioned)
1. Notion Rain
2. Countersquall
3. Lim-Dul’s Vault
4. Connive // Concoct
5. Ashiok, Dream Render
6. Extract Brain
7. Evil Twin
8. The Trickster-God’s Heist
9. Memory Plunder
10. Soul Manipulation
Great list to be honest. I play connive//concoct in my ludevic//olag I usually reanimate stuff but it you never know... the two card Im least interested is motion rain and lim dul vault (this one is either expensive price tag for my taste and a little bit unfun also very long tun ahead) but you pulled so may interesting stuff
@@dariocampanella7992 If you like connive // concoct for reanimation you should check out Incarnation Technique. Also they just reprinted Lim-Duls vault so its about $3 now. I picked up my copy
Great list? No. These cards are either overvosted, or underwhelming, or boring to play against
As someone new to magic, who picked a Dimir Precon, this video is invaluable, thanks for the tips and advice
Which precon did you buy? Im looking to start/try Magic in a LGS and think about Mind Flayerrrs
Demo: Plays Nightveil Predator. "My opponent's won't want to attack me". Me: Horsemanship tribal
Shit, he has horses. How can I possibly stop that 🤣
Counterspell is my fav removal
Don't forget colorless artifact/enchantment removal. Might be a little over costed, but will work in a pinch
Baleful Strix is an OG! I would also mention Aven heartstabber as it has similar value. Bird is the word!
Though mill is an aspect of my thief's guild deck. Zareth San is my commander and there are plenty of shenanigans afoot. Its a little clunky using zareth but I usually apply light mill to get some goodies into the grave then have at it. One dimir car I love to play, with enough mana, phyrexian infiltrator with some tokens. Hold priority, fill the stack with activations and steal creatures lol
I very recently posted my decklist for Araumi on Reddit, and kinda got into an argument that my deck didn't have enough enchantment removal. Ended up adding more counter spells.
Meteor Golem is a good include for Araumi.
You won't always have counterspells ready, when your opponents drop a bomb.
I thought I was the only one who knew about Mundungu! Any time I have Dimir in my color wheel, I ALWAYS add a copy!
I almost never play dimir, but I always wanted to play haakon. So i made a nymris deck with haakon as the secret commander and its actually really fun
I actually have a pretty sick Haakon deck since there's 3 cards now (built it with 2 at first) that get him into your hand
One of the reasons why Hullbreacher deserved a ban while Notion Thief escaped unscathed was color identity. You had Izzet wheel decks like Locust God or Rielle the Everwise slotting him in and windfalling to basically end the game right there, as the treasures would easily pay for the next wheel etc (which is even more toxic than Narset who just empties your opponents hands but doesn't give you the treasure mana). On top of that you had some pretty brutal Azorius stax decks that could accrue insane amount of value while limiting the rest of the table to one draw per turn cycle.
Notion Thief on the other hand can basically only fit in dimir and grixis decks (occasionally spotted in esper and even rarer in sultai), and there it already has one major anti-synergy with the most notorious wheel commander, Nekusar. On top of that, the draw you get from Notion Thief can often whiff because you don't have the mana to cast any of the extra cards you draw when you wheel and oftentimes a Notion Thief + Wheel combo ends on a whimper as the Notion Thief player just sheepishly discards down to 7 (incidentally this can be decent for filling your graveyard but in Dimir there are much better effects for that). Without the extra treasure support from Hullbreacher to cast your new full grip, Notion Thief just isn't as scary.
I wanted to make this comment on your last video but it would have been a pretty late comment. Since you talked about the format changing through the years and some banned cards just aren’t as scary anymore (which I agree with) how would you and the magic community feel about doing a month trail run where some if not all banned cards are unbanned to see how “format shifting” they really are. Obviously with the really expensive cards you could just do proxies and ask other players if they are ok with you testing the banned cards.
I feel like war of the spark ashiok should be a staple in dimir ^^
No way. Too slow and expensive for commander. For 5 mana it doesn't do anything special.
@@yavivanov6650 its the 3 mana version
March of the Machines is always a perfect counter to non-creature artifacts for Dimir decks. Turns all of them into creatures so your actual creature removal can finish them off.
I actually included it in my Silumgar, the Drifting Death deck since Silumgar is a walking board wipe in my command zone depending on how many dragons I have. March of the Machines makes it easy for the deck to deal with those artifacts
with six dimir decks, its by far my favorite color.
I have Mundungu in my old Wizard deck from the late 1990's. Love that card!
I'm running you in the background while i rebuild my Dimir _"TRIBAL REMOVAL"_ and "RAMP 2 NOTHING" decks.
Anyone who loves removal is ok in my book.
Anyway, Continue running in the background. o7
To lend some insight on Hullbreacher, it was mostly banned (and not Notion Thief) because the HB gives you mana to spend on all of your wheel cards right away and can lead to chaining wheels together for an immediate win. The NT only gives you copious amounts of cards, and assuming you played this on your turn followed by a wheel, then you would have spent somewhere in the realm of 5-10 mana already giving you very little room to cast other spells, unless you've already ramped a TON.
HB on the other hand gives you plenty of mana to wheel over and over again drawing out most if not all of your deck and if you have a Thassa's Oracle or Lab Maniac just like in your deck somewhere, then it becomes far too easy to win just by starting the HB combo. This can be started in as little as 4 mana, with enough gas to sustain a win if the deck is built for it.
I try to add Tidehollow Strix along with Baleful Strix to double my chances of drawing one early. Tidehollow Strix lacks the free card draw, but is otherwise functionally equivalent.
I throw in some bounce to remove specific artifacts and enchantments that stop me winning since dimir is very combo-y, i only really play zombies though in dimir and i'm considering going esper to add some more anything removal and take will out of the command zone
Blue has steal effects that take artifacts and enchantments.
Great stuff. I didn't know about Mundungu. Don't sleep on Brine Shaman.
As a magic player my first idea to get more artifact and enchantment removal would be to combo with bounce and discard/wheel.
Ofc only works if thats something you allready wanna do in dimir ^^
I miss my old Lazav mill deck. Mill is generally not great in EDH due to the fact you need to mill 300 cards instead of 60, but Lazav milled just to copy and steal stuff from opponents' graveyards which was really fun if extremely swingy
That's how you use mill in edh. Not to totally dissolve their deck, but to use their graves to benefit yourself, limit the answers they have against you, and defeat them another way.
Like lazav uses it to become a creature you can use against your opponents, and anowon uses milling for card advantage.
I put in Vampire Nighthawk flying deathtouch and lifelink for 3 mana for the same reason as balefull strix, about removing artifacts and enchantments I just accept them and have more kill cards instead just to bad I can't remove them for that is the weakness in black and blue. And with luck counter spells can do that and can help that I do not lose my enchantments and artifacts.
I just started making etrata the silencer deck. Seems fun.
Demon Fish and Thoracle combo?
That's staple for dimir for sure.
Back in the day, i wanted to make a standard deck using a playset of Mundungus 😂
Still keeping those cards until today.
Dire Undercurrents will be great with waste not ❤
The reason I think hullbreacher is banned is because hullbreacher is cheaper and less color intensive than notion thief and hullbreacher gives you mana rather than more cards. Meaning rather than having to discard 20+ cards assuming you have a max hand size. You can instead hullbreacher a wheel get loads of mana then cast your entire hand getting even more value. Of course it could also be a signpost ban as the strongest version of this effect
Nightveil Predator is great in The Mineoplasm
Drown in the Loch, Countersquall & Undermine
You don't need to play cards the help answer things you're weak at. Why play to your weakness. Accept your losses sometimes. The dimir cards that answer artifacts and enchantments are very very subpar.
Very bad take? Counter spells answer everything. If you don't play answers, your decks will lose to some random cards, like single boardwipe, or grave hate
Nightveil Predator is so good! I used to have it in a mutate deck that combined creatures with deathtouch and trample, it was my first pick for a mutate target.
In Dimir decks I sometimes use Xenic Poltergeist to change an artifact into a creature when creature removal is all you have in hand (as long as I have other synergies/reasons to run it). It's cheaper than Karn Silver Golem and better card equity than Karn's Touch. For enchantment removal I use Aura Thief for any sacrifice theme, which isn't removal per se, but controlling all enchantments can sometimes be better. I also use Debt to the Kami or Pharika's Libation, which doesn't let you choose if they have more than one but will get rid of a one-off powerful enchantment at instant speed.
those are some nice removal spells
UB to me is the color of Subtlety, Manipulation, and Deception.
Sadly, WotC generally sees Dimir as "that mill color" which is why I do my best to AVOID mill cards because they're simply not fun to play nor play against. It's just a gimicky burn deck that targets the library. Oh boy.
My current UB commanders are Sivitri, Dragon Master and Rilsa Rael, Kingpin. I highly recommend Rilsa Rael, she is the strongest Initiative-focused commander and the Undercity fills a lot of holes and gaps that Dimir usually lacks. Sivitri does well if you design her like a spiked pillow fort, putting as many forced combat abilities as you can while making it so creatures have less and less power through board states; ultimately causing people to defeat themselves as they're forced to pay life to attack you with 0/4's.
My hands-down favorite card is Countersquall, nothing makes me happier than slapping someone who thought they were playing a wincon in the face with 2 damage. It's a straight up backhand with the ring finger.
My other favorite cards are Dimir transmute cards. You can fish out a lot of value with them, Clutch of the Undercity and Perplex are my favorites, Tolaria West is another good one as a land option (or a 0 drop fetch).
Atleast blue can bounce and then be prepared to counter
I dunno what you're talking about, cuz Dimir has the best artifact/enchantment removal in the game. It's called, "mill 'em before they can use 'em", lmao.
Any major Patrons here? I'm interested...
Nice
If trying to create some edh decks that are not cedh but high powered, but mostly trying to create a fun experience for the players, do you think notion thief + wheels are too unfun since it takes away opponents whole hands?
Doesn't sounds very fun to me 🤷♂
Havengul Lich is honestly terrible in just Dimir. You can't use mana of any color, so unless you have mana filtering or lots of treasures somehow, you can only really use your own creatures from grave with the Lich. Wouldn't really ever recommend over much better reanimation abilities.
Hullbreacher vs Notion Thief.
You can’t play 28 cards after playing a wheel. But with Hullbreacher you can play ANYTHING. That makes Hullbreacher 10 times more potent. It simply wins games. Notion Thief does not. It just makes games long and boring.
I stopped building Dimir a while ago. It isn't a color combo that I feel is fun play more that it just wins. I feel like blue has the answers to everything because if you include bounce spells to your removal package you you make people waste mana resources for a couple turns. And black just gives you access to tutors which give you anything you want. And with that combo of colors you have your win condition faster than anyone else and protection of them.
You forgot the thassa's oracle/demonic consultation two card win the game combo that should be in every Dimir deck that tutors. Because regardless of theme that's a two card instant win condition.
That's cEDH. Demo would probably avoid that, more often than not
@@brandyourfan9244 I know he has said many times he doesn't think Thassa's oracle is casual. But in my experience every Dimir deck unless it is very tribal focused will have the combo regardless because it so easy to dominant strategy it. And not everyone sees the game as a more social aspect. So typically it's if it isn't in there why isn't it because you don't want to shell out the money for it. It a real problem for me with the pods I play with to see Dimir and I groan because I know how people are. Because I seen a ninja deck with yuriko where it has no business being in but was there anyway. And any mill strategy just had it along with the Jace and lab maniac. cEDH or not every game is about winning and that card combo makes your probability that much higher.
@@mrnekomaneki01 cEDH games are strictly about winning. I'd argue, that casual is more about the experience, with winning in mind of course.
If every deck had the exact same win conditions, it would be repetitive and a little boring. Just tutor, combo, done. Rinse and repeat.
If your playgroup leans more towards the cEDH mentality of winning ASAP with the optimal cards, more power to you.
But I enjoy watching people build fun and interesting decks around the commanders they enjoy. It doesn't have to be optimal to be fun.
@@brandyourfan9244 I agree with you on prefering to see creative deck design which unfortunately is why I am kind of in a position where unless I run into a hand full of specific players at my LGS I don't even wanna play because of the pods. So I haven't been playing at all lately.
Having a boring ass combo, which is not thematic is not a great deck inclusion. Also tutors are not needed for casual play.
Hullbreacher gives you the resources to actually cast the spells.
If trying to create some edh decks that are not cedh but high powered, but mostly trying to create a fun experience for the players, do you think notion thief + wheels are too unfun since it takes away opponents whole hands?
While you're correct that Dimir is lacking in Enchantment and Artifact removal, I'll quote an explosive Lazav Voltron player I know: *I find that card removal can be easily replaced by player removal.*
fiiiiirst woooh
Reality Shift
Bostich or Swingline, it your stapler……