Pretty sure a lot of the Xindi tech, particularly their portal FTL was suppliied by the sphere builders. Since they joined the Federation and we never see this portal tech, I'd say it's safe to assume that they were dependent on the sphere builders to maintain it or supply them with vital elements and/or mechanisms to maintain it.
In my personal opinion. This technology could be used only in Delphic Expanse, due to special properties of that region. Earth was most likely on edge of they territory. In most know versions of Trek maps, Earth is relatively close to the Galactic core. What is known place of many anomalies and powerful isolationist empires like First Federation. So it would be safe to assume that Delphic Expanse was part of that region.
Building a super weapon makes sense for the Xindi, the Xindi we see on screen are the survivors of their home planets destruction, they don't have the numbers to build up a decent size fleet let alone a occupying army to keep billions in check. Based on the shows dialogue I imagine there are maybe only a couple dozen thousand Xindi left over from the destruction of Xindus and the though of Earth potentially destroying whats left of them drives them to attack because they have already suffered so much and would do anything to prevent more suffering of their people.
I really like the xindi, the concept of so many different sentient species evolving on the same planet is fascinating. Their ships are unique (mostly) and cool and their tech is nothing to sneeze at. I do Hope we get more of them in Star Trek some time.
Tbh, they kinda remind me of the hapans from Star Wars legends, a faction isolated from the rest of the galaxy that makes unique tech and ships while still being behind the curve so to say.
The aquatic ship has to be a tank. It's literally an aquarium for them, lol. Get a puncture and you lose water instead of atmosphere. That's undoubtedly more difficult to replace.
Water should be a lot easier to synthesize than air shouldn’t it? It’s just hydrogen and oxygen whereas air is oxygen, nitrogen and a lot of other gases. But hydrogen is a lot more common in the universe than nitrogen.
@@drhibas It is not how it work. You may acquire relatively decent quantity of air from the common rocks. Barrel of some storing material and you are settled. But water is way heavier and it would be extremely hard to make if from something on the ship. More logical approach would be to have critical sectors separated.
The Xindi were by far the most interesting faction. When the Kumari class Battlecruiser see a Xindi Reptilian warship: Xindi Reptilian Warship: *gets deleted*
It seems to me that there are two ways to deal with the Expanse. You build your ships light and nimble to avoid anomalies, or build them big enough and armored enough to not care. That special mineral armor seemed to be more effective the more you applied, if I remember. My guess is this is why the Xindi have such a disconnect between the Aquatic Dreadnought and the smaller ships.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I suppose the other idea is that the Aquatics have to build a bigger ship relative to their crew spaces. Water is heavy, so you'll need more thrust to move around the same volume of water vs air. To keep a reasonable thrust/mass ratio, the aquatics would need much larger engines.
The xindi arc was some of the best trek ever put the the screen, archer had to do some shady stuff and things got very hard. Picard wild have folded like a lwan chair under that pressure. Favorite ship would have to be the dreadnought, the other xindi were not happy about having to fight it and I think with a few Tweeks it could be a real contender in the 22nd century.
It was always a bit weird to me that early starfleet hadn’t made a whole fleet of ships at least almost as powerful as the NX01. There would have been a whole world government industry building these things after they were comfortable enough in space to send a long range mission out. It’s just human nature to build up a military to defend, in this case at least the solar system if they didn’t put warp 5 drives in them all (because it was still semi-fresh)
Another point for the for the weapon is that a large attack fleet would be very obvious and probably rouse the other alpha quadrant powers to move their fleets in to defense
Wait. What about the Suliban? Enterprise introduction them too. But, then again. Enterprise fans seem to want to ignore the Suliban. All because of their part in the whole "Temporal Cold War".
Xindi content? I gladly accept, also here’s an idea for a short, in the game Star Trek fleet command there are 2 ships, the realta and the turas, which are said to be from/based on ships from the 2100s, and a short on them would be pretty cool
the xindi were very interesting, culturally, politically, biologically, very diverse potentially they could be a side story series just about the xindi
It would be interesting just to examine how their society adjusted after the spheres were destroyed and the expanse was dissolved. How did the reptilians come to term with the knowing they were duped, specially after the lost of both Degra and Dolim and realizing the Humans were right all along. The Aquatics where really fast to come around at the end, which implies they were already maybe doubting the protectors. knowing how violent the 5 species could be towards each other, that adjustment could not have been easy for them.
@@firstname4337the Xindi did not invent the time war, nor were they really a great part of it, just a tool of one of the powers... I feel, but for the sphere-builders, they were a rather low-advanced race... one that would have minimal capabilities of trans-planetary spaceflight.... maybe a tertiary or quadriary race, mostly internally focused, & backwater to the events of the galaxy. now I can imagine someone like the Vulcans being very involved in a time war... but that's a whole different bit of theory crafting... also... does anyone else get a Kazon vibe from the sphere-builders????
I think most of the XIndi were cool folks that could have appeared more at least in the background crew of a number of shows. Seems like they might be naturals for the Federation once they work a few things out.
@@OllamhDrab In lore Xindi were created by T'Iconians as slaves. It is why they resemble Earth animals. As life on Earth and thousands other planets was seeded by Progenitor faction (BTW Progenitors, Preservers and Sphere Builders are just different factions of those). It is why most Trek aliens are similar and can crossbred. And why there are trees on different planets. Anyway. It is rather safe to assume that that all furry races are actually related to Xindi exodus. Rather then evolving randomly. Especially as Xindi were adaptation of Kzinti (At the time CBS didn't own full rights to Niven works, who for reminder write those TAS episodes).
Id assume the insectoids are like the geonosians from star wars possbly got a large drone labour force. I'd also assume the reason for the weapon(deathstar) is that the xindi are not a truly unified people and put there own interests above the collective interests therefore the possibility of a drawn out war could exasperate existing grudges. The insectoids tri wing ship or the aquatic ship is my favourite
In the lead up to the battle of cardassia that never happened in space it was stated that even the Ferengi were sending ships. Wonder what that fleet comp would have looked like and preformed keep in mind the ferengi military used mild psychotropic drugs to overcome the typical cowardice.
I always pictured Ferengi Marines, as these ruthless and aggressive killers that are practically bred for their role and kept away from the rest of Ferengi society, maybe even using powered armour to overcome their physical limitations
So in other words, the Xindi in the 22nd century is a regional power not a great power. Interesting theories on the nature of how the different species specialize in their civilization.
I find it unlikely that Vulcans and Andorians would be able to make the cut and be great powers. To me the only superpower race in the setting would probably be the Klingons.
@@TheWoblinGoblin ; There are *no* superpowers in the 22nd century Alpha/Beta Quadrants. And from what we see of the Klingons in the mid-22nd century, they are more a regional power. It isn't until the 23rd century they reach great power status. Vulcan, Andoria, and Romulus are really the only great powers in the mid-22nd century.
@@occultatumquaestio5226 Agree. Earth at the time was only regional power. It emerged as Great Power as result of the Romulan War. As for Klingon, as a whole they probably were Great Power. But at the time they were divided as result of feudal organization, what seriously undermined them on galactic scale.
yeah, It was pretty much proven during the final battle. The Kumari seemed to have struggled because it was defending degras ship but once Shran had had enough, it obliterated Dolims ship with ease. There is also an alternative story where the Xindi decided to target Andoria instead of Earth and they were absolutely decimated by the Imperial guards superior ships and numbers. Remember, the Andorians had stalemated the Vulcans for 1,000 years.
Have to say that you are spot on in your analysis of how powerful the xindi truly are in the enterprise timeline. However, main reasons for them being a second rate power that is the destruction of Xindus in 2030, coupled with the expanse limiting contact with other spacefaring races to enable technological advancement through trade. Hamstrung the Xindi and left them only the resources and infrastructure of planets colonised for about 100 years before they attacked earth in 2253. Putting them in position of a second rate power, yet slightly less able militarily that they wouldn’t have been able to match up to the fleet of another second rate power like say United Earth, accounting for their strategy during the xindi crises.
Thanks so much for this video! I enjoyed your perspectives. My favourite Xindi ship is between the reptilians' Contortrix-class escort and the aquatics' Cruiser. That being said - I think that all the Xindi ships are amazing. The Xindi are by far my favourite Star Trek species - they just have so many intriguing aspects to them (even my username has the word "Delphic" in it, named after the Delphic Expanse, haha). I like to think that they do get a lot stronger later in the timeline, and possibly stay out of the Federation (although the do at least ally with the Federation, as Daniels mentioned a Xindi aboard the Enterprise-J). But, Xindi society is an entirely different debate to their technology. Life long and prosper!
The way I've looked at it was that the Xindi's subspace vortex technology was essentially their way to develop a warp-style FTL and since they had lived with the Sphere Builders as their "gods" it was essentially what they felt was necessary, given their ability to essentially stand nearly toe-to-toe with the Enterprise (Earth's most advanced ship at the time) they were a reasonably strong and resilient people. I'd theorized (using this for a story) that if the Xindi and Humans had formed an unofficial alliance they would have used the subspace vortex and particle weapons to almost improve the NX-class' combat potential during the Romulan War, even if not actively engaging in the conflict themselves
This makes a lot of sense. If the Xindi were to strike later in Star Trek history - they never would have had a chance. I mean it wasn't really a Star Fleet at this time.
I do like how they designed the Xindi to show that they all have a common ancestor that diverged into 5 different sub species over the course of their history.
Venom Geek Media 98 23.5K subscribers The Xindi had a unique backstory. Could you please someday eventually do a complete in-depth breakdown of my Number 1# Favorite Xindi starship being the fearsome and deadly Xindi Reptilian Warship?
Hello VG. Another well done episode. You state the facts and logical deductions well, and from there, you lay your theories out clearly and concisely. This is much appreciated. Any quibbles I have with the data are very minor, and probably of little consequence. As for my 'favorite' Xindi ship... I would have to say it would be the Aquatic Dreadnought. Even though slow, it is massive, and very well armored. I play Star Trek Online, from time to time, and I own their version of the Aquatic 'Carrier'. Compared to other, strictly carrier type ships, the Xindi one is far more maneuverable, although, again, more lightly armed.
We know the Xindi were getting intelligence from the Sphere Builders along with technology. If they had some indication of the greater technology of the Vulcans and Andorians, and knew that Earth was allied to one and friendly to the other, they may have concluded that their ships would not last long enough to actually wipe out Earth's defenses and level the planet before their allies showed up to crash the party. A wounded and vengeful Earth, with its allies mobilized for a punitive expedition, would have been a nightmare for the Xindi. Take it out in one shot? Well, the damage would be done. There would only be a small number of humans left. Nothing would remain worth getting into a fight with a planet-killer over. Eventually, of course, the Romulans steal the thing and the region goes straight to hell.
I'd like to see a similar video on the son'a. It seems strange to me that a few dozen exiles could create an empire with technology that surpasses Starfleet in some aspects in only a few decades.
So its an interesting one because its obviously pitching the power to be able to take on Earth at the time but have a big cruiser which can take out a Vulcan ship to show how powerful they are. I agree that I don't think if they came out to battle the Vulcans, Andorians or Klingons(given the topedo gap) they'd do well. What interests me is I get the implication that Earth isnt really militarised until the Xindi come along and attack it. You have the Maco's and some ships for home defence but not much else. Then Earth is suddently building tech which its been working on for a while and seems to be gearing up for something to happen. Photonic Torpedoes, phased pulse canons, stable warp 5 and beyond. It's one of those sad things to say but if the Xindi (sphere builders really) wernt there then Earth wouldnt be ready when the Romulans start poping up in season 4 and certainly not by the time we are in the Earth Romulan war. (Cue conspiracy theory about Daniels letting the attack happen in the temporal cold war order to jump the Earth tech base forward 5-10 years).
they were a mystery that would have been interesting to tap into such their technology and thy were call avians given the skull we see in degra's quarters is meant to be the skull of an avian which belonged to a gazelle
I believe that Skorr are Xindi Avians. Maybe also Aurelians, assuming they are even separate specie? In this case they didn't extinct but rather left (Kzinti and Caitans maybe also be related?). In fact that would explain how Xindi become part of Federation in the future.
According to side canon the Xindi-Avians were the only Xindi to be distrustful of the Sphere Builders. So if they were still around they'd most likely have sided with Archer with Degra.
@@TheRezro Possible. Though I always followed the theory that the Sphere Builders used time travel and manipulation to ensure that the Avians died out, so that the those who questioned them were silenced and not destabilise their position as saviours.
When you consider that the Xindi where only 100 years of so removed from the loss of their home world, I think it is safe to assume that their population is far lower than that of most other space faring species. They had not even settled a new home yet. This would seriously limit both their economy, and their ability to build and maintain a large fleet. The insectoids building most of the ships makes sense, when you consider that they are likely able to reproduce, and grow their population much more quickly than the others. They would become the blue collar labor class for all Xindi, and would likely be a part of any major endeavor. I would also point out, that most of the infrastructure shown in the show, was in fact geared toward construction of the weapon. This tells me that they were throwing every last resource into the effort, at the expense of building their society as a whole.
The Xindi portrayal does seem more than a little contradictory. They prove hard to find even in the expanse, there being several races there, yet few of them know very much at all about the Xindi. Yet, the Xindi seem strong enough to hunt down human survivors in the future where they destroy earth. The local 'super power', the Vulcans, unable or unwilling to stop them. I would answer this simply that, in a weird way, the Xindi are something akin to the Romulans in keeping a low profile. As survivors without a home world , they deliberately hide or understate their presence and spread very little info about themselves. They might well be very willing to kill to keep info about themselves from getting out. That they seem little more than a legend of the Expanse, but are far more developed than their low profile would suggest. The Vortex travel tech gives them an impressive ability to travel and colonize while maintaining a low profile, but also allows the Xindi to strike far afield using terror tactics as needs be. Few races would dare to try and stop them after proving that they had the ability to build a planet killer, had a willingness to use it, and had Vortex travel tech which would have made them hard to stop. The Aquatic Xindi ship would work well as a carrier as you've noted. Perhaps also as a carrier for colonization or development. The Aquatics seemed to provide utility.
The xindi could very well be uplifts - "alien furries" in some way. Wou have one race (maybe the Avians?) in the beginning which at some point anthroporphisezes some local animals. Being uplifst would also go counter to the federations anti "Genetic manipulation" so that may be why we dont see them in 22nd to 24th century
Honestly, I think you really can’t compare the Xindi to the rest of the powers in the quadrant, just because of what you said about existing in a closed system. How many different elements of Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite, and even Human tech do we see develop in response to rival powers’ tech advantages? I’d really be curious to see how Xindi space tech and doctrine might have developed if they had chosen to go for a more conventional military buildup to assault earth, rather than relying on prototype super weapons. The foundation is there. As you said, the economy and industry is a solid building block. Even the ships we see in canon, are a good basis for a fleet design. A few large, heavy, well-protected Aquatic cruiser-carriers, escorted by many light but heavily armed cruiser type Reptilian ships, and maybe encourage the Insectoids to develop a fighter/gunboat type of vessel for use in swarm attacks. I think you hit it on the head when you mentioned the Mon Cal. I could totally see a later Xindi fleet doctrine that actually feels very “Star Wars” as opposed to Trek.
Sto kida solved the inconsistencies with the weapons changing color, biomatter weapons with plasmatic biomatter being green and phased biomatter being blue both basically the same
tbh as Earth I would have strongly considered asking the Vulcans (and Andorians) for a strong military detachment, no matter the cost. The Xindi showed a military capability far exceeding Earth's and if your home planet is on the line you wouldn't f around
I think the NX-01 after it was upgraded for the expanse mission appeared to be at least tactically on par with a Xindi warship, perhaps even stronger. In the episode proving grounds, the NX-01 fought 2 Reptilian ships, disabled both and warped away undamaged despite taking many direct hits. This was confirmed by the sensors on the Kumari, Shrans ship which was much more advanced. In the episode Azati Prime, we see the NX-01 get brutally pummelled by 4 ships. Each beam that hit the NX-01 seemed to produce the same amount of damage as the mine did back in season 2's episode, Minefield which has a yield of a quarter of a kiloton. The NX-01's Phase cannons had a yield of 500 Gigajoules as stated by Reed in season 1 and both forward cannons when overloaded obliterated a peak that was 20,000 feet tall. So I think 1 vs 1, the NX-01 could beat a Xindi ship, sadly it always had to face them in pairs or when the odds were overwhelming.
The Xindi reminded me of the league of non-aligned worlds in Babylon 5. There's many races there, some of them very old and with some very interesting technologies, but in such low numbers they didn't really compare to other powers like the Minbari, Centauri, Narn and Earth Force.
3:43 The speed at which they built the weapon was actually quite fast which tells me that they would be capable of building up a massive fleet if they so desired. I reckon that they wanted to take out humanity in one fell swoop as to not risk anyone getting away and alerting the other regional powers of their existence or indeed intervene with the planned genocide. As for the Andorians being stronger than most, given that they defeated species included in the first novelizations of TOS such as the Vegan Tyranny I would expect them to be. You don't get to survive this long without the backing of the Vulcans otherwise. Would I rate them to be stronger than the Klingons or Romulans? No. However, they're tough enough to give the Romulans pause.
My take? Our experience of them was that of a homeless, often fractured people who are always at risk of infighting, and whose only power came from the backing of more advanced races. Couple that with the fact that their state doesn't even get mentioned outside of their conflict with Earth and the general impression I get is that they are ultimately a bit player who only had one real period of influence in the wider galaxy 🤔
I'm not certain but I seem to remember asides about the Xindi at certain points in TNG and Deep Space Nine. More like vague references though perhaps this was while the other shows were going on.
It would appear they are meant to be a reflection of what we currently could be if our current layout of separate world government Nations acquired or developed Warp technology now. Since not a one world, would want to maintain independence Even when in alliance against new foes😮.
And of course, when it comes to computer hardware, everyone just happens to agree on a single instruction set, a single set of universal communication protocols, and a single, conveniently-hackable set of inter-ship remote control protocols, and laughably weak encryption protocols!
yeah. i mean their homeworld was destroyed and their population scattered so they woull be unable to pool resources to support a full restoration of their population.
I never enjoyed the fact that Enterprise used to introduce species that hadn't been seen in previous Star Trek shows. Are the xindi and Denobulans extinct by TNG?
I wonder if maybe the flimsy ships by the insectoids could be explained by insect hives not valuing the individual as much as more individualistic species.
Wait, the Expanse is artificial. That was the point of destroying the Sphere builder's machines in that episode where T'Pol trolled the others in the shuttle craft with the holographic door. With their machines gone, the Expanse returned back to being normal space. And I argue that the Xindi were on the verge of extinction until the Sphere builders uplifted them, meaning they didn't have enough resources on their homeworld. And in the 22nd Century, Earth is only an emerging power. They aren't hot shit. The Vulcans and the Klingons are the top of the heap, with the Andorians just below them, human are below that at best. Romulans are hard to place because of how secretive they are, but at least on par with the Vulcans is my guess. It's why the Federation is such an existential threat to the Klingons and the Romulans. It's most of their rivals coming together, like how Germany suddenly came to be right next to France. And we know that while France lost the first war, they decided to cripple Germany with Versailles when they could with the help of the British.
During Enterprise there weren't too many colonies. So destroy the home world with a planet destroying weapon to kill most of your enemy in one strike makes sense. Then use the fleet to take out the small colonies and ships.
Earth has multiple sentient species. Possibly millions. Presumably other inhabited planets in the Star Trek Universe are the same. I think you mean multiple sapient species.
So, ahm... what actually did happen to the Xindi after the Expanse devolved? I mean I've seen the lore and maps suggesting the Xindi joined the Federation as time went on, but is there something I've missed about the Xindi before that happened?
Good question. Depends where you place the xindi in the wider quadrant I suspect it was a situation similar to bajor basically the federation made them a protectorate until they got everything straightened things out. But the klingon threat may have been a further incentive to join...
They really fucked up the Klingons in this series. Star Trek is supposed to take place before the Original series aka before the Motion Picture. So why do the Klingons have TNG head ridges? Not to mention getting the lore backwards about the Klingons in Deep Space 9. Warf is the Mutant not the Pure line. If you don't think I'm correct look to Kor the Dahar Master he was in the original series as the same character in Deep Space 9. He went from being Flat Head to Head Ridge. They screwed the canon even worse in Discovery.
So you pick one race TNG introduced us to mention and you pick the Ferangi??? What about the Borg or the Cardassians??? The Ferangi had some greedy encounters with the Enterprise and maybe some other Federation starships but the Cardassians waged a very bloody border war with the Federation for years leading up to and maybe into the early years of TNG... If anything it was your videos about the Cardassian border wars that made me understand how much damage they caused and that is not counting the Dominion war... The Cardassians killed way more Federation citizens then the Borg did at Wolf 359 in fact!
Arghhh you ruined a little bit my memories on this TV show... if Xindi had a full powerful float of ships... why they had to build that enourmous weapon? I didnt realize this unlogic factor when I watched these episodes
Now here's a thought. Are the Xindi the Canada of the 22nd Century?! Very tough in their hood, but get swatted down by a real opponent? I love the Aquatics. Such a neat race, super smart fish people building massive cruisers and having a mastery of extremely complex computer technology. Also that Aquatic Dreadnought SLAPS! Neat Video! I absolutely love the theories of how the various Xindi races interact and contribute to their Alliance. Everyone brings something different to the table, but together they make the real deal.
Would also suggest the economic benefits of the xindi joining the federation and the difference it made possibly its why they moved to vertical warp cores
The Xindi Story line was a wrong path to me. Never mentioned before, where did they go in the TOS era? What happened to their Jumpgate Tech? Instead of exploiting the way to the founding of the federation and the Earth- Romulan war, they places a Post 9/11 story without sense.
"🤔 Interesting analysis, though I t seems like Star Wars fans would not agree, when considering the Empire and the First Order, that having a super weapon meant that you had a small fleet. 🫢" (-James)
Pretty sure a lot of the Xindi tech, particularly their portal FTL was suppliied by the sphere builders. Since they joined the Federation and we never see this portal tech, I'd say it's safe to assume that they were dependent on the sphere builders to maintain it or supply them with vital elements and/or mechanisms to maintain it.
In my personal opinion. This technology could be used only in Delphic Expanse, due to special properties of that region. Earth was most likely on edge of they territory. In most know versions of Trek maps, Earth is relatively close to the Galactic core. What is known place of many anomalies and powerful isolationist empires like First Federation. So it would be safe to assume that Delphic Expanse was part of that region.
Building a super weapon makes sense for the Xindi, the Xindi we see on screen are the survivors of their home planets destruction, they don't have the numbers to build up a decent size fleet let alone a occupying army to keep billions in check. Based on the shows dialogue I imagine there are maybe only a couple dozen thousand Xindi left over from the destruction of Xindus and the though of Earth potentially destroying whats left of them drives them to attack because they have already suffered so much and would do anything to prevent more suffering of their people.
I really like the xindi, the concept of so many different sentient species evolving on the same planet is fascinating. Their ships are unique (mostly) and cool and their tech is nothing to sneeze at. I do Hope we get more of them in Star Trek some time.
Tbh, they kinda remind me of the hapans from Star Wars legends, a faction isolated from the rest of the galaxy that makes unique tech and ships while still being behind the curve so to say.
The aquatic ship has to be a tank. It's literally an aquarium for them, lol. Get a puncture and you lose water instead of atmosphere. That's undoubtedly more difficult to replace.
we need both too
Water should be a lot easier to synthesize than air shouldn’t it? It’s just hydrogen and oxygen whereas air is oxygen, nitrogen and a lot of other gases. But hydrogen is a lot more common in the universe than nitrogen.
@@drhibas It is not how it work. You may acquire relatively decent quantity of air from the common rocks. Barrel of some storing material and you are settled. But water is way heavier and it would be extremely hard to make if from something on the ship. More logical approach would be to have critical sectors separated.
you can freeze the water to prevent loss of 'atmosphere'. We saw them do this every time their ships took hull damage
@@TheRezro why would you make it though water in the form of ice is extremely commonly found in space. A tractor beam and a heater would suffice.
The Xindi were by far the most interesting faction.
When the Kumari class Battlecruiser see a Xindi Reptilian warship:
Xindi Reptilian Warship: *gets deleted*
It seems to me that there are two ways to deal with the Expanse. You build your ships light and nimble to avoid anomalies, or build them big enough and armored enough to not care. That special mineral armor seemed to be more effective the more you applied, if I remember. My guess is this is why the Xindi have such a disconnect between the Aquatic Dreadnought and the smaller ships.
Yeah although I'm not sure if trellium stops the ship from being broken apart by gravimetric anomalies
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Space Magic
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I suppose the other idea is that the Aquatics have to build a bigger ship relative to their crew spaces. Water is heavy, so you'll need more thrust to move around the same volume of water vs air. To keep a reasonable thrust/mass ratio, the aquatics would need much larger engines.
The xindi arc was some of the best trek ever put the the screen, archer had to do some shady stuff and things got very hard. Picard wild have folded like a lwan chair under that pressure. Favorite ship would have to be the dreadnought, the other xindi were not happy about having to fight it and I think with a few Tweeks it could be a real contender in the 22nd century.
It was always a bit weird to me that early starfleet hadn’t made a whole fleet of ships at least almost as powerful as the NX01. There would have been a whole world government industry building these things after they were comfortable enough in space to send a long range mission out. It’s just human nature to build up a military to defend, in this case at least the solar system if they didn’t put warp 5 drives in them all (because it was still semi-fresh)
Another point for the for the weapon is that a large attack fleet would be very obvious and probably rouse the other alpha quadrant powers to move their fleets in to defense
Wait. What about the Suliban? Enterprise introduction them too. But, then again. Enterprise fans seem to want to ignore the Suliban. All because of their part in the whole "Temporal Cold War".
Yeah no one likes them but the cell ships are fun
Well, they weren't all Cabal and OP, (their cell ship tech is probably from outside their time too) ... seem like nice enough folks otherwise.
Xindi content? I gladly accept, also here’s an idea for a short, in the game Star Trek fleet command there are 2 ships, the realta and the turas, which are said to be from/based on ships from the 2100s, and a short on them would be pretty cool
the xindi were very interesting, culturally, politically, biologically, very diverse potentially they could be a side story series just about the xindi
It would be interesting just to examine how their society adjusted after the spheres were destroyed and the expanse was dissolved. How did the reptilians come to term with the knowing they were duped, specially after the lost of both Degra and Dolim and realizing the Humans were right all along. The Aquatics where really fast to come around at the end, which implies they were already maybe doubting the protectors. knowing how violent the 5 species could be towards each other, that adjustment could not have been easy for them.
ha -- the xindi were stupid -- the whole concept of the time war was stupid
@@firstname4337the Xindi did not invent the time war, nor were they really a great part of it, just a tool of one of the powers... I feel, but for the sphere-builders, they were a rather low-advanced race... one that would have minimal capabilities of trans-planetary spaceflight.... maybe a tertiary or quadriary race, mostly internally focused, & backwater to the events of the galaxy.
now I can imagine someone like the Vulcans being very involved in a time war... but that's a whole different bit of theory crafting...
also... does anyone else get a Kazon vibe from the sphere-builders????
I think most of the XIndi were cool folks that could have appeared more at least in the background crew of a number of shows. Seems like they might be naturals for the Federation once they work a few things out.
It should be worth to mention that Future members of Federations such as Aurelians (+Skorr), Caitans and Kzinti. May be actually parts of this specie.
@@TheRezro Eh, well, maybe the Avians could be distant cousins somehow, but I don't think there were any Xindi kittypeople. :)
@@OllamhDrab In lore Xindi were created by T'Iconians as slaves. It is why they resemble Earth animals. As life on Earth and thousands other planets was seeded by Progenitor faction (BTW Progenitors, Preservers and Sphere Builders are just different factions of those). It is why most Trek aliens are similar and can crossbred. And why there are trees on different planets.
Anyway. It is rather safe to assume that that all furry races are actually related to Xindi exodus. Rather then evolving randomly. Especially as Xindi were adaptation of Kzinti (At the time CBS didn't own full rights to Niven works, who for reminder write those TAS episodes).
The Xindi are such an interesting species. I really would like to see them return.
Growing up with Star Trek Encounters, the Xindi always had some of my favorite ships
Id assume the insectoids are like the geonosians from star wars possbly got a large drone labour force.
I'd also assume the reason for the weapon(deathstar) is that the xindi are not a truly unified people and put there own interests above the collective interests therefore the possibility of a drawn out war could exasperate existing grudges.
The insectoids tri wing ship or the aquatic ship is my favourite
In the lead up to the battle of cardassia that never happened in space it was stated that even the Ferengi were sending ships. Wonder what that fleet comp would have looked like and preformed keep in mind the ferengi military used mild psychotropic drugs to overcome the typical cowardice.
A fleet of Marauders would have been beastly in battle, given that they were generally a match for a Galaxy-class starship prewar.
I always pictured Ferengi Marines, as these ruthless and aggressive killers that are practically bred for their role and kept away from the rest of Ferengi society, maybe even using powered armour to overcome their physical limitations
would it surprise you to know that all military uses some version of psychotropic drug and/or brainwashing on soldiers to overcome cowardice.
So in other words, the Xindi in the 22nd century is a regional power not a great power.
Interesting theories on the nature of how the different species specialize in their civilization.
^^^^^ What he says.
I find it unlikely that Vulcans and Andorians would be able to make the cut and be great powers. To me the only superpower race in the setting would probably be the Klingons.
@@TheWoblinGoblin ; There are *no* superpowers in the 22nd century Alpha/Beta Quadrants.
And from what we see of the Klingons in the mid-22nd century, they are more a regional power. It isn't until the 23rd century they reach great power status.
Vulcan, Andoria, and Romulus are really the only great powers in the mid-22nd century.
@@occultatumquaestio5226 Agree. Earth at the time was only regional power. It emerged as Great Power as result of the Romulan War. As for Klingon, as a whole they probably were Great Power. But at the time they were divided as result of feudal organization, what seriously undermined them on galactic scale.
yeah,
It was pretty much proven during the final battle.
The Kumari seemed to have struggled because it was defending degras ship but once Shran had had enough, it obliterated Dolims ship with ease.
There is also an alternative story where the Xindi decided to target Andoria instead of Earth and they were absolutely decimated by the Imperial guards superior ships and numbers.
Remember, the Andorians had stalemated the Vulcans for 1,000 years.
Amazing video gave great insight into the Xindi fleet capabilities. Also love your 22nd century content can not wait to see more 🖖🖖
Have to say that you are spot on in your analysis of how powerful the xindi truly are in the enterprise timeline. However, main reasons for them being a second rate power that is the destruction of Xindus in 2030, coupled with the expanse limiting contact with other spacefaring races to enable technological advancement through trade. Hamstrung the Xindi and left them only the resources and infrastructure of planets colonised for about 100 years before they attacked earth in 2253.
Putting them in position of a second rate power, yet slightly less able militarily that they wouldn’t have been able to match up to the fleet of another second rate power like say United Earth, accounting for their strategy during the xindi crises.
As always, I so enjoyed this!! Ty for the content
Thanks so much for this video! I enjoyed your perspectives. My favourite Xindi ship is between the reptilians' Contortrix-class escort and the aquatics' Cruiser. That being said - I think that all the Xindi ships are amazing.
The Xindi are by far my favourite Star Trek species - they just have so many intriguing aspects to them (even my username has the word "Delphic" in it, named after the Delphic Expanse, haha). I like to think that they do get a lot stronger later in the timeline, and possibly stay out of the Federation (although the do at least ally with the Federation, as Daniels mentioned a Xindi aboard the Enterprise-J).
But, Xindi society is an entirely different debate to their technology. Life long and prosper!
I really like the Aquatic ship. I love the lines.
The way I've looked at it was that the Xindi's subspace vortex technology was essentially their way to develop a warp-style FTL and since they had lived with the Sphere Builders as their "gods" it was essentially what they felt was necessary, given their ability to essentially stand nearly toe-to-toe with the Enterprise (Earth's most advanced ship at the time) they were a reasonably strong and resilient people. I'd theorized (using this for a story) that if the Xindi and Humans had formed an unofficial alliance they would have used the subspace vortex and particle weapons to almost improve the NX-class' combat potential during the Romulan War, even if not actively engaging in the conflict themselves
i agree with your analysis but they are interesting also. i like your context videos so thx for uploading a good video again.
Imagine having a new Star Trek Show and four of the bridge crew were giant Ants and a whale Captain.
25 ep each of 9 seasons confirmed I would say!
This makes a lot of sense. If the Xindi were to strike later in Star Trek history - they never would have had a chance. I mean it wasn't really a Star Fleet at this time.
Oh absolutely although it's not like they knew enough about humanity to realise it.
I do like how they designed the Xindi to show that they all have a common ancestor that diverged into 5 different sub species over the course of their history.
Venom Geek Media 98
23.5K subscribers The Xindi had a unique backstory. Could you please someday eventually do a complete in-depth breakdown of my Number 1# Favorite Xindi starship being the fearsome and deadly Xindi Reptilian Warship?
Hello VG.
Another well done episode. You state the facts and logical deductions well, and from there, you lay your theories out clearly and concisely. This is much appreciated.
Any quibbles I have with the data are very minor, and probably of little consequence.
As for my 'favorite' Xindi ship... I would have to say it would be the Aquatic Dreadnought. Even though slow, it is massive, and very well armored.
I play Star Trek Online, from time to time, and I own their version of the Aquatic 'Carrier'. Compared to other, strictly carrier type ships, the Xindi one is far more maneuverable, although, again, more lightly armed.
We know the Xindi were getting intelligence from the Sphere Builders along with technology. If they had some indication of the greater technology of the Vulcans and Andorians, and knew that Earth was allied to one and friendly to the other, they may have concluded that their ships would not last long enough to actually wipe out Earth's defenses and level the planet before their allies showed up to crash the party. A wounded and vengeful Earth, with its allies mobilized for a punitive expedition, would have been a nightmare for the Xindi. Take it out in one shot? Well, the damage would be done. There would only be a small number of humans left. Nothing would remain worth getting into a fight with a planet-killer over.
Eventually, of course, the Romulans steal the thing and the region goes straight to hell.
I'd like to see a similar video on the son'a. It seems strange to me that a few dozen exiles could create an empire with technology that surpasses Starfleet in some aspects in only a few decades.
So its an interesting one because its obviously pitching the power to be able to take on Earth at the time but have a big cruiser which can take out a Vulcan ship to show how powerful they are. I agree that I don't think if they came out to battle the Vulcans, Andorians or Klingons(given the topedo gap) they'd do well.
What interests me is I get the implication that Earth isnt really militarised until the Xindi come along and attack it. You have the Maco's and some ships for home defence but not much else. Then Earth is suddently building tech which its been working on for a while and seems to be gearing up for something to happen. Photonic Torpedoes, phased pulse canons, stable warp 5 and beyond. It's one of those sad things to say but if the Xindi (sphere builders really) wernt there then Earth wouldnt be ready when the Romulans start poping up in season 4 and certainly not by the time we are in the Earth Romulan war. (Cue conspiracy theory about Daniels letting the attack happen in the temporal cold war order to jump the Earth tech base forward 5-10 years).
you missed the Aquatic frigate vessel on the background of the fleet shot with the Aquatic carrier
We don't see enough of it to get any idea but it is small enough to fit in the dreadnought.
great video
I wonder how things would've shaken out had the Xindi-Avians survived into Enterprise Season 3.
they were a mystery that would have been interesting to tap into such their technology and thy were call avians given the skull we see in degra's quarters is meant to be the skull of an avian which belonged to a gazelle
I believe that Skorr are Xindi Avians. Maybe also Aurelians, assuming they are even separate specie? In this case they didn't extinct but rather left (Kzinti and Caitans maybe also be related?). In fact that would explain how Xindi become part of Federation in the future.
According to side canon the Xindi-Avians were the only Xindi to be distrustful of the Sphere Builders. So if they were still around they'd most likely have sided with Archer with Degra.
@@Mechataur It is highly possible that those could be Aurelians.
@@TheRezro Possible. Though I always followed the theory that the Sphere Builders used time travel and manipulation to ensure that the Avians died out, so that the those who questioned them were silenced and not destabilise their position as saviours.
When you consider that the Xindi where only 100 years of so removed from the loss of their home world, I think it is safe to assume that their population is far lower than that of most other space faring species. They had not even settled a new home yet. This would seriously limit both their economy, and their ability to build and maintain a large fleet.
The insectoids building most of the ships makes sense, when you consider that they are likely able to reproduce, and grow their population much more quickly than the others. They would become the blue collar labor class for all Xindi, and would likely be a part of any major endeavor.
I would also point out, that most of the infrastructure shown in the show, was in fact geared toward construction of the weapon. This tells me that they were throwing every last resource into the effort, at the expense of building their society as a whole.
The Xindi portrayal does seem more than a little contradictory. They prove hard to find even in the expanse, there being several races there, yet few of them know very much at all about the Xindi. Yet, the Xindi seem strong enough to hunt down human survivors in the future where they destroy earth. The local 'super power', the Vulcans, unable or unwilling to stop them.
I would answer this simply that, in a weird way, the Xindi are something akin to the Romulans in keeping a low profile. As survivors without a home world , they deliberately hide or understate their presence and spread very little info about themselves. They might well be very willing to kill to keep info about themselves from getting out. That they seem little more than a legend of the Expanse, but are far more developed than their low profile would suggest. The Vortex travel tech gives them an impressive ability to travel and colonize while maintaining a low profile, but also allows the Xindi to strike far afield using terror tactics as needs be.
Few races would dare to try and stop them after proving that they had the ability to build a planet killer, had a willingness to use it, and had Vortex travel tech which would have made them hard to stop.
The Aquatic Xindi ship would work well as a carrier as you've noted. Perhaps also as a carrier for colonization or development. The Aquatics seemed to provide utility.
The xindi could very well be uplifts - "alien furries" in some way. Wou have one race (maybe the Avians?) in the beginning which at some point anthroporphisezes some local animals.
Being uplifst would also go counter to the federations anti "Genetic manipulation" so that may be why we dont see them in 22nd to 24th century
Honestly, I think you really can’t compare the Xindi to the rest of the powers in the quadrant, just because of what you said about existing in a closed system. How many different elements of Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite, and even Human tech do we see develop in response to rival powers’ tech advantages? I’d really be curious to see how Xindi space tech and doctrine might have developed if they had chosen to go for a more conventional military buildup to assault earth, rather than relying on prototype super weapons. The foundation is there. As you said, the economy and industry is a solid building block. Even the ships we see in canon, are a good basis for a fleet design. A few large, heavy, well-protected Aquatic cruiser-carriers, escorted by many light but heavily armed cruiser type Reptilian ships, and maybe encourage the Insectoids to develop a fighter/gunboat type of vessel for use in swarm attacks. I think you hit it on the head when you mentioned the Mon Cal. I could totally see a later Xindi fleet doctrine that actually feels very “Star Wars” as opposed to Trek.
Sto kida solved the inconsistencies with the weapons changing color, biomatter weapons with plasmatic biomatter being green and phased biomatter being blue both basically the same
I headcanon that insectoid aquatic and primate weapons are blue while primate and reptilian ships fire green.
tbh as Earth I would have strongly considered asking the Vulcans (and Andorians) for a strong military detachment, no matter the cost. The Xindi showed a military capability far exceeding Earth's and if your home planet is on the line you wouldn't f around
I think the NX-01 after it was upgraded for the expanse mission appeared to be at least tactically on par with a Xindi warship, perhaps even stronger.
In the episode proving grounds, the NX-01 fought 2 Reptilian ships, disabled both and warped away undamaged despite taking many direct hits. This was confirmed by the sensors on the Kumari, Shrans ship which was much more advanced.
In the episode Azati Prime, we see the NX-01 get brutally pummelled by 4 ships. Each beam that hit the NX-01 seemed to produce the same amount of damage as the mine did back in season 2's episode, Minefield which has a yield of a quarter of a kiloton.
The NX-01's Phase cannons had a yield of 500 Gigajoules as stated by Reed in season 1 and both forward cannons when overloaded obliterated a peak that was 20,000 feet tall.
So I think 1 vs 1, the NX-01 could beat a Xindi ship, sadly it always had to face them in pairs or when the odds were overwhelming.
The Xindi reminded me of the league of non-aligned worlds in Babylon 5. There's many races there, some of them very old and with some very interesting technologies, but in such low numbers they didn't really compare to other powers like the Minbari, Centauri, Narn and Earth Force.
3:43 The speed at which they built the weapon was actually quite fast which tells me that they would be capable of building up a massive fleet if they so desired. I reckon that they wanted to take out humanity in one fell swoop as to not risk anyone getting away and alerting the other regional powers of their existence or indeed intervene with the planned genocide.
As for the Andorians being stronger than most, given that they defeated species included in the first novelizations of TOS such as the Vegan Tyranny I would expect them to be. You don't get to survive this long without the backing of the Vulcans otherwise. Would I rate them to be stronger than the Klingons or Romulans? No. However, they're tough enough to give the Romulans pause.
My take? Our experience of them was that of a homeless, often fractured people who are always at risk of infighting, and whose only power came from the backing of more advanced races. Couple that with the fact that their state doesn't even get mentioned outside of their conflict with Earth and the general impression I get is that they are ultimately a bit player who only had one real period of influence in the wider galaxy 🤔
Does anyone else feel like the Xindi screams up lifted?
I'm not certain but I seem to remember asides about the Xindi at certain points in TNG and Deep Space Nine. More like vague references though perhaps this was while the other shows were going on.
Yeah Xindi kaaboo
Got to be the aquatic cruiser.
Though I like the insectoid ship as it has colony wars vibes 😁
It would appear they are meant to be a reflection of what we currently could be if our current layout of separate world government Nations acquired or developed Warp technology now. Since not a one world, would want to maintain independence Even when in alliance against new foes😮.
I think that made them interesting.
And of course, when it comes to computer hardware, everyone just happens to agree on a single instruction set, a single set of universal communication protocols, and a single, conveniently-hackable set of inter-ship remote control protocols, and laughably weak encryption protocols!
Tng introduced 2 new species, ferengi and borg
Perhaps the Xindi population is so diminished they cannot staff a large fleet?
yeah. i mean their homeworld was destroyed and their population scattered so they woull be unable to pool resources to support a full restoration of their population.
Voyager doesn't get a mention for their interesting species?
USAF: I suggest you start looking up .
I never enjoyed the fact that Enterprise used to introduce species that hadn't been seen in previous Star Trek shows. Are the xindi and Denobulans extinct by TNG?
Probably not, the concept of them probably didn't really exist apart from dialogue until Enterprise
Question.Can Xindi Aquatics understand and able to talk with Whales ?
The aqualtic ships .
I wonder if maybe the flimsy ships by the insectoids could be explained by insect hives not valuing the individual as much as more individualistic species.
looking at what they have onscreen compared to the humans though you still think they'd roll over them no?
Wait, the Expanse is artificial. That was the point of destroying the Sphere builder's machines in that episode where T'Pol trolled the others in the shuttle craft with the holographic door. With their machines gone, the Expanse returned back to being normal space.
And I argue that the Xindi were on the verge of extinction until the Sphere builders uplifted them, meaning they didn't have enough resources on their homeworld.
And in the 22nd Century, Earth is only an emerging power. They aren't hot shit. The Vulcans and the Klingons are the top of the heap, with the Andorians just below them, human are below that at best. Romulans are hard to place because of how secretive they are, but at least on par with the Vulcans is my guess.
It's why the Federation is such an existential threat to the Klingons and the Romulans. It's most of their rivals coming together, like how Germany suddenly came to be right next to France. And we know that while France lost the first war, they decided to cripple Germany with Versailles when they could with the help of the British.
Cheers
Maybe without The Sphere Builders help the Xindi had a civil war and went extinct? And WTH was Degra?
My favorite is the Reptilian ship.
During Enterprise there weren't too many colonies. So destroy the home world with a planet destroying weapon to kill most of your enemy in one strike makes sense. Then use the fleet to take out the small colonies and ships.
True although given how little the xindi knew about humans. Finding human colonies might be an issue.
Good point but that may have been given that information by the sphere builders. How they found earth was never said.
Earth has multiple sentient species. Possibly millions. Presumably other inhabited planets in the Star Trek Universe are the same. I think you mean multiple sapient species.
did the reptilians go with basically a flesh tone ship? seems like an odd choice.
So, ahm... what actually did happen to the Xindi after the Expanse devolved? I mean I've seen the lore and maps suggesting the Xindi joined the Federation as time went on, but is there something I've missed about the Xindi before that happened?
Good question. Depends where you place the xindi in the wider quadrant I suspect it was a situation similar to bajor basically the federation made them a protectorate until they got everything straightened things out. But the klingon threat may have been a further incentive to join...
were you born in 1998 or are you 98 years old? curious was Venom Geek Media 1-97 taken?
They really fucked up the Klingons in this series. Star Trek is supposed to take place before the Original series aka before the Motion Picture. So why do the Klingons have TNG head ridges? Not to mention getting the lore backwards about the Klingons in Deep Space 9. Warf is the Mutant not the Pure line. If you don't think I'm correct look to Kor the Dahar Master he was in the original series as the same character in Deep Space 9. He went from being Flat Head to Head Ridge. They screwed the canon even worse in Discovery.
So you pick one race TNG introduced us to mention and you pick the Ferangi??? What about the Borg or the Cardassians??? The Ferangi had some greedy encounters with the Enterprise and maybe some other Federation starships but the Cardassians waged a very bloody border war with the Federation for years leading up to and maybe into the early years of TNG... If anything it was your videos about the Cardassian border wars that made me understand how much damage they caused and that is not counting the Dominion war... The Cardassians killed way more Federation citizens then the Borg did at Wolf 359 in fact!
If what you were saying about easier to build ships underwater was true why don't we do it here on earth in the real world?
Because we are not aquatic creatures
Arghhh you ruined a little bit my memories on this TV show... if Xindi had a full powerful float of ships... why they had to build that enourmous weapon? I didnt realize this unlogic factor when I watched these episodes
Now here's a thought. Are the Xindi the Canada of the 22nd Century?! Very tough in their hood, but get swatted down by a real opponent?
I love the Aquatics. Such a neat race, super smart fish people building massive cruisers and having a mastery of extremely complex computer technology. Also that Aquatic Dreadnought SLAPS!
Neat Video! I absolutely love the theories of how the various Xindi races interact and contribute to their Alliance. Everyone brings something different to the table, but together they make the real deal.
Would also suggest the economic benefits of the xindi joining the federation and the difference it made possibly its why they moved to vertical warp cores
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Agreed. Wicked theroy.
@venom your spelling my name wrong 😅
Clicks pause... the nx class made a mockery of their control of their space and ran circles around them.. clicks play.
The Xindi Story line was a wrong path to me. Never mentioned before, where did they go in the TOS era? What happened to their Jumpgate Tech?
Instead of exploiting the way to the founding of the federation and the Earth- Romulan war, they places a Post 9/11 story without sense.
"🤔 Interesting analysis, though I t seems like Star Wars fans would not agree, when considering the Empire and the First Order, that having a super weapon meant that you had a small fleet. 🫢" (-James)