3:04 This reminds me of Steve Jobs' comment “It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.”
Yeah and tbh watching this makes me think about the framing due to the observer's bias, which Faye definitely has. Like, to me (and you can probably clock my bias), I just watched a group of women talking about the failure of living up to (or just trying to) a standard they don't even know what it is ('they never notice when you do anything [for them]' etc etc), so why go for an advertising tactic which leans into the very thing that they're saying is an issue? 😂
@@Sapphonouveau "so why go for an advertising tactic which leans into the very thing that they're saying is an issue?" Because #1 women didn't give up at trying, even though they weren't noticed by _their man,_ and #2 society as a whole noticed them.
@@RonJohn63 Ahh, but that's kind of my point! If the pursuit of feeling beautiful and thus good about themselves is something these women continue regardless of its efficacy, or even understanding what it's for... the world is kind of your oyster in terms of pitches. Indeed, it's easier to lean into the goal of 'just wanting to know I'm beautiful' instead of tying it to a particular goal which arouses all kind of complex emotions. And indeed, in some ways that's exactly what's paying off right now with decades of 'you're worth it', 'beauty is within (even though we're clearly selling you beauty enhancing products 😂)'. It's a bit like the advert for Lucky Strike in series 1. Sure, tapping into death wishes and danger and 'cool' and whatnot is also fine, but also then has to counter the discomfort that such angle w/could simultaneously lead to. Going straight for the emotional fulfilment as quickly as possible does help us bypass those tricksy, more questioning thoughts!
@@Sapphonouveau "Indeed, it's easier to lean into the goal of 'just wanting to know I'm beautiful' instead of tying it to a particular goal which arouses all kind of complex emotions." But now there are a *lot* of ugly, fat people wearing sexy clothes thinking they're beautiful.
I think the correct approach is what was stated on the video at the end. You use focus groups, but you do so intelligently. You don't see them as an "end all". Its just one piece of data that you add to other pieces of data and than you reach a conclusion on your own. The number of people in a focus group is generally too small to reflect an entire population. Although, it may give you insights about behavior.
Mya Girl it’s a fake soo when you think about it even when Peggy wishes to get married she’s wearing a fake ring and I think it symbolizes that her work life will always come first
It's awkward because clearly Don is troubled by the fact that the secretary is depressed because of him. Don tries to reject the findings of Faye because it would validate the secretary's reaction to him using her and then basically discarding her. He claims that you can't tell what someone will do based on what they have done, but he disproves himself because he ends up marrying his secretary right after sleeping with this one.
What you're saying is that people are incapable of doing anything other than what they've done in the past. If that were true, marketing would not be needed.
@@RonJohn63 it’s not that they’re incapable, people are capable to do something different from what they’ve done in the past. It’s just actions speak louder than words, it’s not just the intent, it’s the habit or act that they haven’t quit yet.
What we now know about validating about hypothetical situations is that one can do an A/B test and run two separate ad campaigns and present both and see which one has better conversions. Although I think in mad men Don never really trusts anyone with a PhD anyways.
"You can't tell how people are going to behave based on how they have behaved" This sounds so ridiculous, but Don ends up proving his point later in the season by dumping Faye to marry his secretary out of the blue. Faye played so hard to get the whole season, after they actually built a real relationship, Don just dumps her without any warning. God this show is smart
I don't think she was playing hard to get. I think at first she really didn't want to be with him. She was obviously attracted to his looks, but she had figured him out well enough to not want to a relationship with the type she believed him to be. Later, she falls for him against her own better judgement because she feels bad for him and also because she genuinely believes she can help him and that he can change. It did look that way for a while, but then of course Don proves her initial perception of him was the right one. Thats why she is heartbroken when he dumps her for Megan, but she is not surprised.
andromedastar Lol. That shows how stupid and blindsided all of us are when it comes to relationships. Faye is smart, educated in psychology, sees Don’s tricks from a mile away but she’s still like “yeah, I can fix him.”
@@andromedastar4900 rewatch their first date, Faye was always in love with him, I think it was meant to parallel with his secretary he slept with that season, I mean she followed him to the new Sterling Cooper. and the way that character is introduced in season 3 (I think) is actually similar to the scene in season 4 when meagan is first introduced. Faye's only real crime was that she was too mature and emotionally intelligent to cause more drama on the show. at least the actress got to be on stranger things, still she left too early, but I guess that's the point
I agree with Don. Focus groups are a complete waste of time and money because the only way that people will really give an honest opinion of a product is to try it in the privacy of their own home where they behave completely naturally. Companies should focus on spending more time and money on improving the product or service to get and retain business.
Development of video games involve play testing extensively. I know next to little about what's involved with consumer products, and the one focus group I went to felt like the company was just looking for people to validate their ideas...however, if I had to guess, I'd assume that it's one of those things in life that's a crutch when used wrong but a supportive tool when used right.
"Companies should focus on spending more time and money on improving the product or service to get and retain business." WOW, you sound like an absolute revolutionary with that idea!
The #1 note should be: Don't use focus groups. They only provide value when you have an advanced prototype. But for any product in an earlier stage of development than that, you want your engineers and marketers out with the customers themselves. In Japanese product design, this is called the gemba - meaning "the scene of the crime". Focus groups are over-relied on because they're relatively convenient, but they produce wildly inaccurate results. It's a lazy method. Don's criticisms are correct (even though he's making them for the wrong reason). The environment is far too artificial and the participants are more worried about the social dynamics of the group than of the product or what their actual need is instead. Focus groups are also centered around what the observer wants to ask, not what the customer wants to do. Just do this little thought experiment. Take 5 minutes to write down what you do in your day to day job, step by step. In trying to describe what you do, you're probably going to miss a lot of small steps and important nuances to the decisions/actions you take. These are assumed activities in your mind, but they're important. If you just describe what you do to someone, you're going to leave out all those important details. Instead what you should do is you go to the place where the customer actually interacts with/uses your product or service, and you shut up and observe. Later on you can ask them about their process and map it all out but you mostly watch them do whatever it is they need to get done. There is no set path or script like in a focus group. The conversation/observation will focus on what the customer is trying to do, and you'll get much, much better insights into the problem they're facing or how they're using your product.
Doctor Faye bored the hell out of me. And I noticed that she treats everyone with contempt, specially the secretaries, as if they had less value as human beings than herself. ..She was only nice to Don.
@@stonem00133 Times, with Alison, Megan and Peggy; When Alison stormed out of the room crying, Megan asked later; is she ok? Faye said; "Who?'', as if Alison's existence or acts wasn't worthy enough for her to acknowledge it. When Megan was Don's secretary, and asked Faye if she needed something, she responded with such a superiority air, not even bothering to look at Megan, as if she was invisible or something. When Faye was leaving SCDP for good, Peggy was saying goodbye in a warming way, but Faye remained cold and distant.
@@jenlindley7780 She didn't know her name bro. Plus Megan's a secretary, Faye has stuff to do besides looking them all in the eye. Faye left mixed because she felt so about the fact she wasn't going to see Don anymore. She had some trouble expressing her emotions, but she was really insecure about the fact she couldn't handle helping out Sally. She's some issues, and writing it off as "she treats people with contempt" seriously undermines the writing in this show.
3:04 This reminds me of Steve Jobs' comment “It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.”
In the words of Say, "supply creates its own demand".
Yeah and tbh watching this makes me think about the framing due to the observer's bias, which Faye definitely has. Like, to me (and you can probably clock my bias), I just watched a group of women talking about the failure of living up to (or just trying to) a standard they don't even know what it is ('they never notice when you do anything [for them]' etc etc), so why go for an advertising tactic which leans into the very thing that they're saying is an issue? 😂
@@Sapphonouveau "so why go for an advertising tactic which leans into the very thing that they're saying is an issue?"
Because #1 women didn't give up at trying, even though they weren't noticed by _their man,_ and #2 society as a whole noticed them.
@@RonJohn63 Ahh, but that's kind of my point! If the pursuit of feeling beautiful and thus good about themselves is something these women continue regardless of its efficacy, or even understanding what it's for... the world is kind of your oyster in terms of pitches. Indeed, it's easier to lean into the goal of 'just wanting to know I'm beautiful' instead of tying it to a particular goal which arouses all kind of complex emotions. And indeed, in some ways that's exactly what's paying off right now with decades of 'you're worth it', 'beauty is within (even though we're clearly selling you beauty enhancing products 😂)'.
It's a bit like the advert for Lucky Strike in series 1. Sure, tapping into death wishes and danger and 'cool' and whatnot is also fine, but also then has to counter the discomfort that such angle w/could simultaneously lead to. Going straight for the emotional fulfilment as quickly as possible does help us bypass those tricksy, more questioning thoughts!
@@Sapphonouveau "Indeed, it's easier to lean into the goal of 'just wanting to know I'm beautiful' instead of tying it to a particular goal which arouses all kind of complex emotions."
But now there are a *lot* of ugly, fat people wearing sexy clothes thinking they're beautiful.
I think the correct approach is what was stated on the video at the end. You use focus groups, but you do so intelligently. You don't see them as an "end all". Its just one piece of data that you add to other pieces of data and than you reach a conclusion on your own. The number of people in a focus group is generally too small to reflect an entire population. Although, it may give you insights about behavior.
That moment where Peggy put on the ring and Don notices.
Mya Girl it’s a fake soo when you think about it even when Peggy wishes to get married she’s wearing a fake ring and I think it symbolizes that her work life will always come first
It's awkward because clearly Don is troubled by the fact that the secretary is depressed because of him. Don tries to reject the findings of Faye because it would validate the secretary's reaction to him using her and then basically discarding her. He claims that you can't tell what someone will do based on what they have done, but he disproves himself because he ends up marrying his secretary right after sleeping with this one.
Brilliant
What you're saying is that people are incapable of doing anything other than what they've done in the past. If that were true, marketing would not be needed.
@@RonJohn63 it’s not that they’re incapable, people are capable to do something different from what they’ve done in the past. It’s just actions speak louder than words, it’s not just the intent, it’s the habit or act that they haven’t quit yet.
@@daryllepedrosa692 that's why marketers have to spend so much money convincing you to change your habits.
" A new idea is something they don't know yet. You can not based on how people behave by how they behaved."
That is a great quote.
It's not really true though. You can draw an inference based on the past.
an inference is not the same as a certainty @@olamsoevik
What we now know about validating about hypothetical situations is that one can do an A/B test and run two separate ad campaigns and present both and see which one has better conversions. Although I think in mad men Don never really trusts anyone with a PhD anyways.
Dotty’s acting is phenomenal. She should be a bigger character actress.
"You can't tell how people are going to behave based on how they have behaved"
This sounds so ridiculous, but Don ends up proving his point later in the season by dumping Faye to marry his secretary out of the blue. Faye played so hard to get the whole season, after they actually built a real relationship, Don just dumps her without any warning. God this show is smart
I don't think she was playing hard to get. I think at first she really didn't want to be with him. She was obviously attracted to his looks, but she had figured him out well enough to not want to a relationship with the type she believed him to be. Later, she falls for him against her own better judgement because she feels bad for him and also because she genuinely believes she can help him and that he can change. It did look that way for a while, but then of course Don proves her initial perception of him was the right one. Thats why she is heartbroken when he dumps her for Megan, but she is not surprised.
andromedastar
Lol. That shows how stupid and blindsided all of us are when it comes to relationships. Faye is smart, educated in psychology, sees Don’s tricks from a mile away but she’s still like “yeah, I can fix him.”
Actually dons history of infidelity in his relationships could tell you that he would in fact dump Faye.
@@andromedastar4900 rewatch their first date, Faye was always in love with him, I think it was meant to parallel with his secretary he slept with that season, I mean she followed him to the new Sterling Cooper. and the way that character is introduced in season 3 (I think) is actually similar to the scene in season 4 when meagan is first introduced. Faye's only real crime was that she was too mature and emotionally intelligent to cause more drama on the show. at least the actress got to be on stranger things, still she left too early, but I guess that's the point
@@plumsours4921 exactly.
How many secretaries did Don ruin?
Why use your own employees when they know there is a 2 way mirror in the room?
I agree with Don. Focus groups are a complete waste of time and money because the only way that people will really give an honest opinion of a product is to try it in the privacy of their own home where they behave completely naturally. Companies should focus on spending more time and money on improving the product or service to get and retain business.
Development of video games involve play testing extensively. I know next to little about what's involved with consumer products, and the one focus group I went to felt like the company was just looking for people to validate their ideas...however, if I had to guess, I'd assume that it's one of those things in life that's a crutch when used wrong but a supportive tool when used right.
"Companies should focus on spending more time and money on improving the product or service to get and retain business."
WOW, you sound like an absolute revolutionary with that idea!
The #1 note should be: Don't use focus groups.
They only provide value when you have an advanced prototype. But for any product in an earlier stage of development than that, you want your engineers and marketers out with the customers themselves. In Japanese product design, this is called the gemba - meaning "the scene of the crime".
Focus groups are over-relied on because they're relatively convenient, but they produce wildly inaccurate results. It's a lazy method. Don's criticisms are correct (even though he's making them for the wrong reason). The environment is far too artificial and the participants are more worried about the social dynamics of the group than of the product or what their actual need is instead. Focus groups are also centered around what the observer wants to ask, not what the customer wants to do.
Just do this little thought experiment. Take 5 minutes to write down what you do in your day to day job, step by step. In trying to describe what you do, you're probably going to miss a lot of small steps and important nuances to the decisions/actions you take. These are assumed activities in your mind, but they're important. If you just describe what you do to someone, you're going to leave out all those important details.
Instead what you should do is you go to the place where the customer actually interacts with/uses your product or service, and you shut up and observe. Later on you can ask them about their process and map it all out but you mostly watch them do whatever it is they need to get done. There is no set path or script like in a focus group. The conversation/observation will focus on what the customer is trying to do, and you'll get much, much better insights into the problem they're facing or how they're using your product.
Doctor Faye bored the hell out of me. And I noticed that she treats everyone with contempt, specially the secretaries, as if they had less value as human beings than herself. ..She was only nice to Don.
How did she show contempt?
@@stonem00133 Times, with Alison, Megan and Peggy; When Alison stormed out of the room crying, Megan asked later; is she ok? Faye said; "Who?'', as if Alison's existence or acts wasn't worthy enough for her to acknowledge it. When Megan was Don's secretary, and asked Faye if she needed something, she responded with such a superiority air, not even bothering to look at Megan, as if she was invisible or something. When Faye was leaving SCDP for good, Peggy was saying goodbye in a warming way, but Faye remained cold and distant.
@@jenlindley7780 She didn't know her name bro. Plus Megan's a secretary, Faye has stuff to do besides looking them all in the eye. Faye left mixed because she felt so about the fact she wasn't going to see Don anymore. She had some trouble expressing her emotions, but she was really insecure about the fact she couldn't handle helping out Sally.
She's some issues, and writing it off as "she treats people with contempt" seriously undermines the writing in this show.
I'd take Faye over Megan any day.
I think you misspelled Don’s name lol. He fits that description perfectly.