In chapter 3 of the book Jesus the Christ, Elder Talmage writes, “Let not ignorance and thoughtlessness lead us into the error of assuming that the Father’s foreknowledge as to what would be, under given conditions, determined that such must be”.
Makes me also think of Lucifer. The plan of Salvation couldn't go ahead unless there was opposition to God's work, but Lucifer had agency and chose to rebel. He must have been very persuasive . He took many with him.
I always thought if it wasn’t Judas, another would have betrayed Him. Just like the restoration, if it wasnt Joseph someone else would have been prepared. Going back to the Lord knows what we are more likely to choose, He still let’s us make that decision and has prepared accordingly.
Why do you think he gave the money back?? Because he did not expect what happened to happen. I will bet that Judas was told "all we want to do is talk to him before he gets himself in trouble. And then when they turned on him... he was upset!! I believe that he was called before going to earth that he would be used as that person.
Dr Trevan Hatch, also of BYU, has a different take on the betrayal of Jesus in his book Stranger in Jerusalem. If I recall, the word translated in the KJV as “betrayed” is a mistranslation. It actually means “delivered” and in a separate study done of the use of that word in ancient text, no one case found (which was around 200 cases I believe) does it mean “betrayed.” In that context, it could have been that Jesus prearranged with Judas to deliver him into the hands of the Jews. As it is well established that everyone, including the apostles, believed that the Messiah would be a great deliverer from Rome, it is likely that Judas believed he was just getting things started. And, in the end, when Jesus was killed, Judas probably then believed he had made a terrible mistake as Jesus never free’d them from Rome, but died instead. Betrayal has long been traditional and we’ve vilified Judas substantially (we do love our scriptural villains). If in fact there is a more redemptive way of viewing Judas based on a better understanding of ancient language, I think it is worth a look.
I disagree. My counter question: is God only capable of saving us if somehow there existed a Satan? No is my answer. Instead God in his infinite wisdom is capable of using good and bad actors to further his work certainly. But no evil person is required. Otherwise Satan should be saved. He fulfilled his part in the plan perfectly and as such shouldn’t be punished for fulfilling a required role.
I have been thinking a lot about the real definition of "believe" (or "believe"). Most people think it is blind faith or if we pray hard enough we will decide what are "beliefs" are. But belief is something else entirely: it can only happen when we have let go of all indoctrinated and/or propagandized thinking; we then have to find our way to real beliefs through independent thought and investigation. Learned conditioned thinking is not a belief - a belief is earned not learned!
I don’t believe that foreordination means someone is forced to do something. It is an agreement before one comes to earth to fulfill a certain role on earth. Like Joseph Smith made an agreement with our Heavenly Father to become a prophet and to receive and restore the gospel and priesthood to the church, he is described as heroic and strong. That was an agreement between him and Heavenly Father. I’m not seeing how people who are foreordained to do good are not forced, whereas people who are foreordained to do the really hard awful things are somehow forced against their will. Both Eve and Adam sinned greatly against the direct word of our Father in Heaven, but they are considered good, and were supposed to do what they did, because that would help the plan of salvation move along. But they are good and Judas is bad. I don’t understand that at all. Lots of people were foreordained to be good and to do good things. Were they forced to do those good things? Does that negate the good things? I don’t think so. Jesus couldn’t turn himself in because he needed to be betrayed. Judas betrayed him as was his role. Can you imagine volunteering to be the ultimate bad guy? Jesus needed Judas to do what he did so he could do what He had to do. Sure, it could’ve been any man, any “Judas”, so to speak, but it was Judas. Someone who was very close to him, and who knew him very well. I don’t think we can say that a good person is forced to do good if we can’t say that an person with an integral role was foreordained to do his duty as well. Believe me, I’m not advocating for badness or anything like that. Evil is evil and evil people on the Earth do bad things. But, there’s also I need for a certain role in every play. There’s always someone who hast to take wrong road, the left turn, etc., but makes the story move towards its end. The same is with Judas and his role. I really don’t know. I’m not a scholar of the Scriptures. I just can’t believe that. He can only be one way and not the other. That seems a tad unfair. You have to have a good guy and he gets the glory but the good guy can’t be the good guy without the bad guy and the bad guy is just plain bad. I’m not saying we need to celebrate Judas or anything like that I’m just trying to understand. Thanks so much for all your videos. They’re very educational and very thought-provoking.
I think there a lot of assumptions being made there about Judas being foreordained. I believe that is just a word we use to hand wave and make things fit nicely into our theology-because the alternatives are possibly more uncomfortable to consider. Does it really sit well with anyone that Judas volunteered to damn himself in hell so that Jesus could save the rest of us? It just seems like if we just think a little hard about the ramifications of this, it just doesn’t add up and should be set aside. When asking “can you imagine volunteering to be the ultimate bad guy”-no I can’t because I don’t think that’s how it works. Or “Jesus needed Judas to do what he did”-maybe, that puts a lot of restrictions on and boxes around Jesus that get in the way, way more than they help. Maybe yet another traditional view is worth re-examining and tossing out in favor of a better one. The restoration did that with all kinds of traditional beliefs, this one seems like another good candidate.
@@ChrisRobison thank you for responding. Your comments are thoughtful and worth thinking about. In order for there to be up there has to be a down…we don’t know if Judas is damned to hell…we don’t know why Adam and Eve get a pass…motivation may be the deciding factor in these conundrums. There are so many questions to be answered and only one person who can truly answer them or one place we’ll learn the “whys” of life…we’ll all have to wait and see, I guess. Thanks again…
I don’t entirely trust myself. I love that answer and that story. Thank you.
In chapter 3 of the book Jesus the Christ, Elder Talmage writes, “Let not ignorance and thoughtlessness lead us into the error of assuming that the Father’s foreknowledge as to what would be, under given conditions, determined that such must be”.
Makes me also think of Lucifer. The plan of Salvation couldn't go ahead unless there was opposition to God's work, but Lucifer had agency and chose to rebel. He must have been very persuasive . He took many with him.
I always thought if it wasn’t Judas, another would have betrayed Him. Just like the restoration, if it wasnt Joseph someone else would have been prepared. Going back to the Lord knows what we are more likely to choose, He still let’s us make that decision and has prepared accordingly.
Why do you think he gave the money back?? Because he did not expect what happened to happen. I will bet that Judas was told "all we want to do is talk to him before he gets himself in trouble. And then when they turned on him... he was upset!! I believe that he was called before going to earth that he would be used as that person.
I wondered if Judas was aware of the scripture in Zechariah 11:12. Did he know someone would have to betray Christ?
Assuming that scripture even referred to Christ and was understood that way.
Christ states that he chose him. That has mortal and pre-mortal ramifications. Looking forward to this discussion.
I have wondered if Judas thought Christ would take control of the situation and start a temporal, physical revolution with all of his power.
Dr Trevan Hatch, also of BYU, has a different take on the betrayal of Jesus in his book Stranger in Jerusalem. If I recall, the word translated in the KJV as “betrayed” is a mistranslation. It actually means “delivered” and in a separate study done of the use of that word in ancient text, no one case found (which was around 200 cases I believe) does it mean “betrayed.” In that context, it could have been that Jesus prearranged with Judas to deliver him into the hands of the Jews. As it is well established that everyone, including the apostles, believed that the Messiah would be a great deliverer from Rome, it is likely that Judas believed he was just getting things started. And, in the end, when Jesus was killed, Judas probably then believed he had made a terrible mistake as Jesus never free’d them from Rome, but died instead. Betrayal has long been traditional and we’ve vilified Judas substantially (we do love our scriptural villains). If in fact there is a more redemptive way of viewing Judas based on a better understanding of ancient language, I think it is worth a look.
It's the same thing with Satan. We needed to have a "Satan" for opposition.
I disagree. My counter question: is God only capable of saving us if somehow there existed a Satan? No is my answer. Instead God in his infinite wisdom is capable of using good and bad actors to further his work certainly. But no evil person is required. Otherwise Satan should be saved. He fulfilled his part in the plan perfectly and as such shouldn’t be punished for fulfilling a required role.
I have been thinking a lot about the real definition of "believe" (or "believe"). Most people think it is blind faith or if we pray hard enough we will decide what are "beliefs" are. But belief is something else entirely: it can only happen when we have let go of all indoctrinated and/or propagandized thinking; we then have to find our way to real beliefs through independent thought and investigation. Learned conditioned thinking is not a belief - a belief is earned not learned!
Yes
I don’t believe that foreordination means someone is forced to do something. It is an agreement before one comes to earth to fulfill a certain role on earth. Like Joseph Smith made an agreement with our Heavenly Father to become a prophet and to receive and restore the gospel and priesthood to the church, he is described as heroic and strong. That was an agreement between him and Heavenly Father. I’m not seeing how people who are foreordained to do good are not forced, whereas people who are foreordained to do the really hard awful things are somehow forced against their will. Both Eve and Adam sinned greatly against the direct word of our Father in Heaven, but they are considered good, and were supposed to do what they did, because that would help the plan of salvation move along. But they are good and Judas is bad. I don’t understand that at all. Lots of people were foreordained to be good and to do good things. Were they forced to do those good things? Does that negate the good things? I don’t think so. Jesus couldn’t turn himself in because he needed to be betrayed. Judas betrayed him as was his role. Can you imagine volunteering to be the ultimate bad guy? Jesus needed Judas to do what he did so he could do what He had to do. Sure, it could’ve been any man, any “Judas”, so to speak, but it was Judas. Someone who was very close to him, and who knew him very well. I don’t think we can say that a good person is forced to do good if we can’t say that an person with an integral role was foreordained to do his duty as well. Believe me, I’m not advocating for badness or anything like that. Evil is evil and evil people on the Earth do bad things. But, there’s also I need for a certain role in every play. There’s always someone who hast to take wrong road, the left turn, etc., but makes the story move towards its end. The same is with Judas and his role. I really don’t know. I’m not a scholar of the Scriptures. I just can’t believe that. He can only be one way and not the other. That seems a tad unfair. You have to have a good guy and he gets the glory but the good guy can’t be the good guy without the bad guy and the bad guy is just plain bad. I’m not saying we need to celebrate Judas or anything like that I’m just trying to understand. Thanks so much for all your videos. They’re very educational and very thought-provoking.
I think there a lot of assumptions being made there about Judas being foreordained. I believe that is just a word we use to hand wave and make things fit nicely into our theology-because the alternatives are possibly more uncomfortable to consider. Does it really sit well with anyone that Judas volunteered to damn himself in hell so that Jesus could save the rest of us? It just seems like if we just think a little hard about the ramifications of this, it just doesn’t add up and should be set aside. When asking “can you imagine volunteering to be the ultimate bad guy”-no I can’t because I don’t think that’s how it works. Or “Jesus needed Judas to do what he did”-maybe, that puts a lot of restrictions on and boxes around Jesus that get in the way, way more than they help. Maybe yet another traditional view is worth re-examining and tossing out in favor of a better one. The restoration did that with all kinds of traditional beliefs, this one seems like another good candidate.
@@ChrisRobison thank you for responding. Your comments are thoughtful and worth thinking about. In order for there to be up there has to be a down…we don’t know if Judas is damned to hell…we don’t know why Adam and Eve get a pass…motivation may be the deciding factor in these conundrums. There are so many questions to be answered and only one person who can truly answer them or one place we’ll learn the “whys” of life…we’ll all have to wait and see, I guess. Thanks again…