It's not just the trains but also Scalextric a few years ago they introduced a new track called start. Why would anybody who already has a track invest in a new set of track that doesn't connect to the main Scalextric track. So they invested all the that money into new tooling to make a competitor for their own track 😢 not surprisingly they stopped making it.
I'm surprised they have not reintroduced the old Lima/Rivarossi code 83 component track system. I do feel that could be a success owing to the finer scale track profile. It was a good system.
A very good assessment of the situation. When the Hornby importer for Canada closed its doors all my pre-orders were cancelled. I approached Hornby for a trade account for my store. After 12 months of emails and phone calls which went unanswered by the Hornby International Sales Manager we decided to give up on Hornby. We are the largest exclusively British model train retailer in North America - deciding not to carry any new Hornby products was an easy decision - absolutely no regrets.
What shop? I am from New Zealand but now live in the USA. I would certainly be interested in buying British trains if they were easily available in North America. I order most of my stuff from the UK.
I don't understand how Hornby can be online marketing and selling to hobby shops. To me this means they are in competition with their retailers. I know other companies ( not just model products) do this as well. So you local supplier is ip against companies with much larger marketing budgets.
History repeating. The model train hobby has a trail of failures and takeovers. The current Hornby is really the old Triang who took over Hornby (Mechano and Hornby Dublo) decades ago (using Triang/Hornby as an interim name). Rovex, Lions Bros and others have all been and gone. Triang later went down the tubes, and lost the rights to the name. Aghast it goes on, and on.
Hi, great overview of a company that back in the day was like a religion to many modellers, speaking from experience I don’t buy Hornby products anymore unless they are in sales or maybe coaches that never have any issues as far as I’m concerned, I spent a lot of money on 2x’s HST packs with noisy fan units that were horrendous, I got no help from Hornby even though they were weeks old! I even offered to pay for some new fan units but they said they didn’t do spares, that was 2 years ago and I haven’t purchased any Hornby products since, the customer service department is terrible in my opinion, the locomotives run faultless but the fans have been disconnected because they are not fit for purpose, I don’t care if modellers say it’s Hornby bashing, it’s not bashing it’s calling out a crap feature that doesn’t work as it should, I do like some of their new locomotives but I won’t purchase them unless they are seriously cheap and I can get spares if they fail to perform and breakdown, it’s a shame real modellers don’t run the company because some of their products are very bad and let modellers down on a regular basis with cost and corner cutting exercises that ruin their models, their quality control is non existent and the way items get here from China in a state that aren’t picked up even by retailers, the constant use of very old mouldings is beyond a joke now, the prices are beyond a joke so I steer clear until they get their products correct and fit for purpose, thanks for sharing.
@@LittleWicketRailway Hornby just seeing it as spares is also a bit short sighted imo, if they just produced a limited range of chassis and then sold 'alternative' add-ons, i.e. different liveries, body's etc. then people could buy a single loco but rather than buy a new one, alter an existing. At which point you can bet your dollar that they would soon decide to buy a second chassis and make themselves 2 locos.
Totally agree, I too get accused of Hornby bashing on the Forums. I really don't think those people live in the real world. Many of their locos need removing, they may have been good 30 years ago but compared to what you can get now from other manufacturers, they are just not competitive. I just get the opinion they think if they keep certain Model Railway reviewers happy by lending them models they can fool the rest of us to keep buying them.
@@LittleWicketRailway I don't know, keeping spares is expensive ask Ford about that big warehouse in Daventry. The issue though is they don't provide any. Who is going to pay £250+ for a loco that they might scrap because they can't fix it when it goes wrong.
Unfortunately, As You said, Accurascale, Dapol & Rapido are able to make more details models at a much lower cost. Which is also driving people away from Hornby, Why pay £300+ for a model that they can’t even package securely that has a high chance of arriving damaged. When You can buy a more detailed model from someone else much cheaper and packaged more securely, I hope Hornby are able to change things, But we shall have to wait and see.
The counter argument to that is they all tend to specialise in slightly different models. Accurascale in big diesels, Rapido in pre-grouping, etc. Only Hornby and Bachmann have a broad range. I'm mainly a steam fan (with a few early diesels). Hornby have by far the best range of steam locos, therefore the vast majority of my models are Hornby. However their prices mean I tend to buy a lot secondhand and of course Hornby don't see any of that money. Pushing more people to the secondhand market is arguably a bigger threat to Hornby than other manufacturers limited ranges IMO.
Accurascale’s sister company Irish Railway Models,Irish Railway Models and Murphy Models catering for the Irish market something Hornby have neglected for yrs and continue to do so. Hornby doesn’t seem to understand that modeller’s in Ireland purchase their products,so it would be nice to see Hornby produce an Irish RTR steam model like the 800 class (only three were built at Inchacore Dublin by CIE) In all my time attending various model railway exhibitions throughout Ireland I’ve never come across a Hornby stand.
I love the hornby brand, but let's face facts here - the products are cheap and dire, poor packaging, garbage controllers, worst sounds I've ever heard from a sound fitted model and top tier products are far over priced given the plastic empty shells. Other brands like accurascale for example, offer exceptional detail affordable prices
@Whizzy-jx3qe that'll never happen, they had their chance and they chose to ignore it. They could easily have done it in the past especially after the Lima purchase in the early 2000's, mark 3 and mark 2 for coaches in Irish livery using the Lima moulds. Before Murphy and IRM, irish modellers were screaming for rtr models and hornby sat on their hands. Best chance for an Irish rtr steam loco will be from IRM.
back in the late 80's early 90's when I was a kid my dad had a model railway and Hornby was struggling then I've always remembered Hornby struggling to stay afloat. And that was before the rise of video games and digital media like we have today. me and my dad are working on a new OO layout now and I always watch your vidoes 🙂
Apart from the name, the Hornby of today has nothing to do with the one started by Frank Hornby. Hornby today is a direct descendant of Tri-ang, even the red and yellow brand colours are Tri-ang. Margate is the Tri-ang factory rebranded. I think it is important to be accurate about history. Having said that, it is a worry that Hornby seems to be flailing about with all sorts of ideas that seem to cost more than they deliver. I hope they can consolidate and find a smooth business path that may lead to more cost effective products that don't cost too much. The COVID bubble seems to have created more interest in the hobby and not just with old people either, there are lots of young ones looking starry eyed at train shows as well. Fingers crossed for Hornby.
Pauline is correct in saying that the present "Hornby" has nothing to do with Frank Hornby's company. The present "Hornby" started as Rovex, part of the Lines Brothers Tri-Ang group. All my classmates at school had Hornby railways or the Meccano construction kits. I was given Tri-Ang trains or something called Vogue construction kits. Needless to say, the rival brands weren't compatible! I have heard from several retailers that "Hornby" don't speak to other makers, for example on track and wheel flange standard. They go their own way . . . It can't help! I do hope the firm recovers, soon, but I have my doubts on how likely it might be.
Todays Hornby is Rovex Triang in the Hornby name. Fact! The Hornby name or brand only survives by 2 quirks of fate! Hornby went bust in 1965. Hornby have not been at Margate for 70 years at all! Frank Hornby is not todays Hornbys founder. It was the gentleman that invented Rovex plastic trains that became Triang Railways. Dont you get sick of Hornby Trumpesque alternative facts!
Fair enough but to me Hornby got too big for their boots, sell of some of the companies they bought to generate extra capital. Do away with geeky tech only suited to dweebs in sharp suits wearing glasses, improve their PR , customer communication skills and act like human beings, not f-----g suits chasing his or her next company car upgrade from BMW. Bring back in house production, concentrate on what they are good at, model railways ,slot cars, plastic kits and diecast models, especially affordable diecast model toys to take on Mattell Matchbox. In its current form Hornby is heading one direction, down the toilet(lavatory).
@petergraham7731 But it's the same with Bachmann. That is just the trading name bought by Kader. Nothing to do with the original Bachmann of US origins
I live in the US and anything Hornby touches is avoided like the plague for the bad quality. Rivarossi used to be considered a good quality brand, with moderate pricing, here in the states but after they got acquired by Hornby, the prices for them went sky high and quality into the toilet or the loo as the brits say. Had a close family friend spend close to 2k (Model plus import tax) on Big Boy model with all the bells, whistles, lights, working fake steam, DC/DCC back in 2018, only to receive it completely smashed. The only good news is if you have any pre-Hornby Rivrossi, that's now going for a premium on the used/second hand market.
A completley smashed up model is nothing to do with Hornby though. thats down to the shipping comapany and the postman, to Hornby's defence. Everything else you say is 100% fair and accurate tho!
@NathanielKempson a beat-up package is expected in the U.S. However, how that's product is packed to be sent out is on the company itself. His was nothing more then the retail packaging, that you see on a self inside a box store, inside a empty box and a mailing label on said box.
@@stewartdickson7184 Totally agree. The Great Central at Loughborough, right in the middle of the country. Or the Severn Valley or Gloucester and Warwickshire.
Hornby would shift more stock if they didn't keep slapping the Beatles branding on Ex Thomas bodyshells and reusing the older tooling constantly for irellivent liveries.
How so ? If those items sell - albeit to the non-enthusiast market then they bring money into the company. And the R&D costs of such models is much, much lower than producing a brand new, rivet perfect model of whatever.
I used to design electronics for Hornby back in the late 1980’s. Their first pulse width modulation controller was one of mine. At that time they were struggling to compete with China, and eventually a lot of the locomotives and rolling stock that are hand painted were moved to China. The labour rates just cannot be ignored. I’m not a railway modeller myself, but I do build Airfix military and naval stuff. The last few releases in 1/72 have had some dreadful errors in them. That just won’t fly in the 2020s They reboxed some Academy craft Armour, changed the decals and wanted a lot more money for the same kit as academy were making. Why buy the Airfix kit when I can get the Academy one cheaper? I get the impression that there is a huge disconnect between their marketing department, market research, design and senior management. They just don’t listen to their customers. I also think that the people they employ don’t have any passion for modelling.
This. Haven't touched model railways since childhood, but after watching some videos I was curious about giving it another go, maybe a little N-gauge layout. But the prices were a bit shocking. £300+ OO-gauge locos must be catering to a small and fading niche in a world where so many other hobbies and gadgets are competing for our attention. Makes other potential-money-pit hobbies (e.g. RC helis/drones, Lego, 3D printing, and of course gaming) seem fairly good value.
@bluescrndotnet you can do model Railways on a budget. I started by buying new, but switched to second hand and started collecting and fixing up old Triang models. £12 - £30 for a tank engine, a little more for tender engines. £10-£20 for coaches. Yes, sometimes I buy a dud, but I can buy a loco and a whole rake of coaches for the price of one new engine, and just as much enjoyment too!
It never was that cheap. Online there's an image of a Hornby 1987 price list - here's some examples of why I think you're wrong. 1987 - Silver Fox A4 £ 46.50 - equivalent to £ 163 today. Rails of Sheffield has a brand new Hornby A4 for £ 125. The 1986 Argos catalogue (on line) has an Inter City 125 set for £38.95 (RRP £55.99) equivalent to £ 138 / £ 198 today - you want an Inter City 125 set brand new today ? £140 on line. So there are two myths out there - one is model railways "used to be cheap" - which they never were in real terms. The other is prices have rocketed up - again, in real terms (i.e. taking inflation into account) that really isn't the case.
I don't understand why Hornby did not invest in producing H0 models instead of TT. The gauge is identical, so they might be able to reuse parts of the mechanism. They already own several H0 manufacturers. And there almost is zero British rolling stock available in H0, which is the biggest model railroad market out there.
Been saying the same for years. If they had went modern British HO it opens up the European market for them with ferry vans and so on. I model British HO and it gives way more advantage than TT and takes up not much more space and a collosal range of acessories from world wide.
Interesting point. Especially from a technical point of view, there is nowadays ZERO constraints to manufacture UK Ho models like there were in the early 1930s.
@@ArcadiaJunctionHobbies Especially when you see the poor quality of their TT track compared to the German offer by Tillig... If I wanted someday to do some UK (or else) TT modelling, I would buy Tillig track, and nothing else. Even Piko, which manufactures TT models, don't lose their time manufacturing TT tracks.
They need to address their pricing. With a typical loco now in the region of £300. I no longer even consider purchasing new rtr models. Having said that I have just purchased a brand new rr+ Class 47 with dcc sound for £107.00 so it can be done. This leads to the other issue you raised, direct sales, direct from hornby this model is about £40 more and, I am not sure that was sound fitted. I am sure my local retailer had a margin on the sale. How big a margin are Hornby seeking?
This is why I didn't get into OO and stuck with HO by ROCO, Piko Etc. I would by the Rivarossi and LIma and jouef stuff by hornby that's the only reasonably priced products they seem, to sell. A bit pricy still but less than hornby.
The local retailers chuck the prices down to move them off their shelves. My local shop said the new models just sit on the shelves collecting dust. They sell more 2nd hand. When they need space they send them all back... Total waste if you ask me. Sure we would all buy them if the pricing was reasonable in the first place.
Very useful video. Thanks for taking the time to research/produce it. As you point out you simply cannot compare HORNBYwith the likes of Accurascale or Rapido. They have to innovate to find new markets. By far the greatest innovations recently have come from them, being Hm7000 and TT. Not saying you have to love either, but surely both are examples of them trying to turn it round. They def need to work much harder to offload stock. And yes, improve direct sales to. 24hr turnaround.
Just remember this....Hornby/ Triang have gone bust many times before. And so have nearly ALL the other manufacturers. Its the nature of the beast of model railways. It's nothing new.
Having worked in a model shop I can say that Hornby were the worst to deal with. One time they sent us an invoice to pay for some preorders and, upon phoning them to pay, we were told that our preorders had been sold to someone else! Needless to say, no more preorders with Hornby from that point
Wonderworks (the Hornby visitor centre) is a brilliant place to visit. Problem is it's geographical position makes it very difficult for 90% of the country to go (unless you happen to be on holiday in East Kent).
yeah i've often fancied visiting hornby but as you say being at the a*** end of the UK, it's not a place that can be visited quickly if you live, North, or West of London unfortunately that's most of the UK :(
Same point can be made of the National Railway Museum (York and Shildon). And it's more like 75% - a combination of Kent, E Sussex, Greater London, Essex and Herts (all of which can easily get to Margate for a day trip) are about 15m people in a country of ~60m.
@@peddersmeister really ? I used to live in Hertfordshire and drove to Canterbury, Whitstable, Margate for day trips. It's easily done - and even more so now if you want to do it by train with HS1 from St P.
No one wants Hornby to fail. However, everyone has a budget, and for me the number one criteria is quality. Rightly or wrongly I view Hornby as suspect on this front and hence won’t invest in Hornby products unless I’m sure of its quality. I entered this hobby two years ago and have to date purchased two Hornby items, magnetic couplings and TTA wagons which are both excellent. If my view is typically it shows what needs to be addressed. People will pay for a quality product.
I work in manufacturing and everyone is taking it hard right now. Terrible projections for early 2025 especially for luxury items. The cost of living crisis is catching up hard to industry. If the customers don’t have the money theres not much anyone can do.
@@grahamsmith2022 This is global I think. It's natural that we only look locally, but this stress is worldwide. Here in the U.S people also focus on the local situation but it's far beyond national borders.
@goarmysleepinthemud. I don't think the USA would ever be stupid enough to erect trade borders and barriers with its nearest and biggest customers upon itself,the only thing booming is the masses of paperwork needed now for the UK to trade with Europe.
Hi Rob! Excellent video! It shows that you've put a lot of work into this, from research to presentation! Great job! I model in N gauge now, so don't have much to do with Hornby, but they made up the majority of my model railway collection when I was a kid back in the 70s and 80s, so I have a soft spot for them, and it's sad to see them going through such hard times! Not sure that TT was ever a good idea financially, nor trying to become a sole retailer of their products! One thing I do know, is if you're struggling to sell your product, increasing prices isn't the smartest of ideas, especially when competitors have more detailed and reliable offerings costing less! I really do hope they pull through, as a model railway landscape without Hornby seems unthinkable! All the best, Ian.
Great watch, thanks for puting this together. In my humble opinion, Hornby buries it's head in the sand regards to listening to customers and understanding what is important to people now. The world has changed exponentially regards to retail, products, interests and customer service. In my experience, Hornby have failed to keep up with these changing demands, and other manufacturers are quickly over taking in these fields. It would be a crying shame for Hornby to disappear as they are part of UK heritage and hold fond memories from my childhood, hope it's not too late for them to make a U-turn and restore faith from their customers.
Hornby is unsustainable from what you present here. They are being overtaken by newer firms. Their products are of variable quality, highly priced - except Railroad - and customer support is very basic lacking even a decent spares facility being more a toy sales operation rather than a modellers support system. For example I am now upgrading my old Hornby Mk1 coach couplings using an independently created 3D printed NEM pocket requiring a bit of work on each bogie. By contrast when I was upgrading old tool Bachmann Bullied coaches I could buy new Bullied bogies from Bachmann with upgraded couplings and metal wheels and just replace the old bogies. In all I would not mourn the end of Hornby.
You are correct about Mike Ashley he buys shares in companies he knows are likely to end up bankrupt and can be brought cheap to add to his business empire. One theory I have about the TT scale is Hornby wanted to create a new market that the company has complete control over but didn't have the money to pay for development hence the huge 00 gauge price hikes to cover the cost. The protectionist retail policy of only TT purchases could be made though their website together with no retailers was allowed to stock it was about controller and maximum profits. But this harmed TT only when Hornby allowed retailers to sell it sales improved. Hornby and Bachmann have failed to understand the impact of new manufacturers on the market and have fallen to the wayside. I have no answers on what Hornby could do but time is limited for a turn around.
Agree I think SK did a load of damage TT120 is a disaster, and requires massive investment for a long time. He also stopped supplies to Rails, their biggest retailer as they produced their own loco.
I just don't see the point of TT. If it's successful, all it does is fragment the market, which makes things worse for everybody, because it makes the market for any individual model smaller, so it makes every model less profitable. Meanwhile, it increases costs for the manufacturers.
Just had a look at a Sheffield retailer website they are knocking up to 46% off Hornby TT scale. That's a fair bit off the normal price if TT had been successful why the high discount?
@@ChaileyLeavers11 SK comes across as a rather arrogant and waspish character who thinks he knows more than he actually does. He has a lot to answer for, not sure why so many seem to think he is Mr Wonderful.
@@paulc9588 I almost think the directors left him to run the outfit, the programs that featured hornby showed more men playing with trains rather than trying to make a profit.
The only business model that works in 2024 is the Accurascale model. Mainly online, everything is preordered, so they know how exactly how many to order from the factory, so they are not left with thousands of items in the warehouse that need to be heavily discounted or scrapped. Preordering means that if the demand is not there to make the release profitable, it doesn't progress past a CAD drawing (Steampunk, TT:120 etc.). Hornby's problem is they need to borrow cash because they can't dispose of their stock. Solve that problem, they will survive.
Agree about the model except TT. I don't think they could have sold that concept as preorder, I think they needed to launch with something tangible and capitalise on the buzz of a new thing. My issue with the strategy was limiting it to direct sales. Also heard the track was crappy.
@@gwheregwhizz that's not considering that they probably have got order contracts with the Chinese factories that they signed up to, so they have to produce certain quantities or risk breach of agreement 🤝... There's probably loads of stuff like that at play here.
The problem is this strategy only works on existing collectors. Yes it is a good strategy for a new company, but not one that allows them to grow once they have saturated existing customers. For all their faults, Hornby are trying to find new customers and that is much more risky as they pump so much more into marketing and more risky ventures - Steampunk for instance. They would love to replicate what Lego has achieved - an old fashioned toy that was really under pressure from all sides, that worked well with innovation to re-generate as successful company. Model Railways is just one part of their business, so they are pulled in many different directions.
I'm not going to slate hornby but when I was buying in the 80s and 90s they had lots of products I was interested in I just couldn't afford now I can buy what ever I like they don't sell anything I'm interested in I've always wanted a 310 or a 308 from hornby but it never came they just remade the apt I already have and the new one doesn't have the appeal. And the tt farce imo was to cut costs without actually asking the market what it wanted
Not only that but a lot of what they sell now are worse than what they sold in the 90's. I tried to build a layout recently with new Hornby track and not a single point out of about 20 in the shop had a properly working spring so I switched to Peco. I wanted to buy a model of Mallard but the only one available was their 'railroad' version with an unfinished paint job (why is my 90's Flying Scotsman a better model than a 2020's one?). They were just releasing their super detail Pullman coaches when I left the hobby in 2002 and was hoping to get some only to find the ones they sell now are the Tri-ang models! I wanted to get new coaches to replace the classic teaks but again they stopped producing their nice teaks in favour of the old ones I was looking to replace, and getting anything decent was impossible unless I wanted an entire train of only BR green brake thirds. So I bought some Bachmann coaches instead...
" I've always wanted a 310 or a 308 from hornby but it never came" Because the market for EMUs is small. the market for OHLE EMUs is even smaller and the market for a unit which ran on only a couple of lines is miniscule. But the costs of things like R&D and production aren't any cheaper for items with a relatively small market.
I'm from the US and even I know the prices that Hornby sells their wares at are absurd. Lower the prices, improve the QA of the products, fix the distribution of products in retail, and actively work to get newcomers into the Model Railroading hobby, it's not rocket science. Hopefully management isn't too thick-skulled to fix the mess they made for themselves.
I agree, Hornby is where my love of model railways came from back when they had the rights to make Thomas & Friends models. This range is where I got my first ever train set, I loved it to bits as a kid. I wanted to expand but my family couldn't afford to buy brand new models so we just had to stick with second hand and buy what we could afford without breaking the family chequebook. The models from Hornby that I've collected in recent times have been a bit hit and miss. Their J15 and Terriers were of good quality but I've heard some people who've paid £200 or more for locos with bits breaking off and performance issues. Unacceptable from a business point of view, people who are paying lots for a loco should have a very good quality model. Personally I think Hornby should have gone to N Gauge rather than TT, this is because Hornby previously produced resin-cast buildings for the N Gauge market and could've easily reintroduced that range. A budget N Gauge range would have been good as it is good for newcomers to the hobby and would've been more affordable as well as addressing space issues. That's just my take on the matter. I hope Hornby do try to survive because I'd hate to see them gone forever.
Thanks for the great video Rob. Hornby also produces models for the European & US markets under the Arnold, Rivarossi, Joeuff, Electrogen & Lima brand names. All of these brands were formally the "Hornby" companies of their respective countries so even more important that Hornby can turaround its business and become financially viable as well as producing great models.
Thank you for another very useful piece of analysis. It’s good to have some hard evidence against which to test my thoughts. Those are that: 1) Simon K had been allowed too much rein to commission new products; and 2) Hornby’s Head Office overheads are excessive compared to its new ‘cottage industry’ competitors. The Post Office Horizon Inquiry put recent former Chairman Henry Staunton on witness stand on 1st October. From 51’34” he talks about ‘huge numbers swinging around’ giving a net defecit in 2022 of £160m. He blames management not having a sufficient grip on costs. I wonder if Hornby suffers from a similar attitude. A telling sign was Margate’s very recent shop sale included the ultra brand new Grand Central HST set in its bargain discount boxes.
First up, I am a long suffering Hornby shareholder. If it were not for the major shareholders, I think Hornby would have gone under long ago or at least been bought and asset stripped. My understanding is that the major shareholders are railway enthusiasts so are more inclined to support Hornby although I am sure there are limits. The good news is that these shareholders have significant resources to call upon so can support Hornby indefinitely should they choose to. Personally, if I was them, I would take Hornby private and remove the costs and burden associated with being a PLC. You could then restructure the business without the same level of public glare and potentially IPO again in the future (assuming the business can be turned around). Hornby has amazing brands but I suspect these can also be a curse as they no doubt have and inherited inefficient processes and costs which the new entrants into the hobby do not have. I wish Hornby and everyone who works there every success as I am sure they are passionate about what they do.
Back in the 80s, when Hornby was on the rocks (again), my father was hired to sort it out. He did so, and I recall his saying that their biggest problem was that their range was too wide and that thereby they were carrying a huge inventory. He fixed it and the company thrived for a number of years under his leadership. From my own observations and the comments of others on this video, it appears that they've fallen into the same trap again
If they had paid attention to quality control at the manufacturing point, and given up on churning out ancient, and overpriced sets of tat (Beatles pack comes to mind here), which nobody wanted, and utter rubbish, that was purportedly Era 1 rolling stock, but wasn't even close - and just pulled a ridiculous high price out of the air for it, or even updated the mechanical parts of their engines, and stopped using cheap motors, then they might just have avoided being where they are now. Having a team of 'Yes Men' in charge didn't help either.
When I was a teenager here in Australia there used to be a decent selection of Hornby and lima products ..I don't think we get the same selection from Hornby anymore...not what's offered in the UK.or maybe I'm imagining it..
Hearn's Hobbies has a decent assortment of Hornby but I don't even look at them because they're completely incompatible with the Australian models (HO scale w. kadee couplers) I'm more interested in. If I was to ever get international trains, I'd sooner import from the US since theirs would actually fit my current trains than locally purchase the poorly fitting Hornby models.
After starting back into the hobby back in 2021, I went to 009 as it gave me the room to build with n gauge track with the convenience of OO models. I looked at TT but there is nothing being modelled that I want as i would model southern. I wouldn’t spend out on a loco i have no interest in so TT is a non starter for me. The only thing i now buy from hornby is their HM7000 decoders for the sound. Shame really as i always had hornby stock.
Really well presented and balance view thanks. As an engineer for a UK vehicle manufacturer I have an insight to design, manufacturing and sales etc. I’d love to see the numbers behind the products and where they are loosing money. Can’t help feel they are stretched too wide with such a large product portfolio. I’d also love to see the business cases for railroad products versus a top end Railways or Dublo model (speaking 00) personally a big fan of the railroad stuff (terrible US derived name for UKmodels) but like the price and idea. It is what Hornby should focus on I believe but I don’t see the numbers behind the products.
I grew up with Hornby and remember when Mainline came to market. I already avoided Lima as my loyalty was to the market leader at the time. I came back to the hobby just 3 years ago and my first purchase was Hornby. Sadly very little of my stock is Hornby as, in line with your comments, I am buying from Dapol, Accurascale and Rapido. Thanks for an interesting analysis. I do hope Hornby can make it, but high prices for inferior models will not attract serious modellers. I hope TT: 120 can save them, because their OO range is failing to deliver.
With their Scalextric range they produce attractive accurate bodyshells of both classic and modern cars great. But as they are designed purely as home use cars that need a magnet to perform, they are missing out on the race clubs market, if they designed the chassis to be raceable, as slot it and NSR and Thunderslot, but also nicked an easily removable magnet, then they could sell to both markets. A Scalextric car at approximately £55 is poor value compared to a slot it at £65. It would be interesting to see a sales profit and loss breakdown for the group, which sector is holding up, increasing or going down. Their corgi classic reissue cars are nice and not too expensive compared to originals, have bought a few, don't know how many Airfix modellers are out there currently, seems Lego can't go wrong at the moment, they have a new tie up for Formula 1 starting next year . Difficult times for Margate, I wish them well.
Phoenix have a stake in Games Workshop who have moved into the same strategy of using direct sales, limiting items available to the independent sales outlets until the activity reduces from direct sales leaving the retailers with excess stock long after the initial hype has faded. GW also have a HQ / Visitors Centre that is exteremely popular. GW make a lot of money. Warlord Games are former memebers of the management team at GW before it went public and whilst nieche compared to GW they have a regular drum beat of games whilst retaining a core WW2 Wargame as their mainline. Hornby owning all of the classic brands seem to be a company without a single focus other than nostalgia, which is no bad thing but needs a bit more of a direction. And yes the visitor centre and HQ is at the end of the world, too far away for the majority.
It is a pity, we do have companies that, at least publically, are doing great like Rapdio and Accurascale, but they are not being weighed down by years of poor decisions and scandal after scandal. Every groundbreaking release from Hornby has seen some major setbacks, like the Black Fives, TMC just massively discounted the DCC Sound version of the Turbomotive £200. How does Hornby expect to shift the ones they are keeping to sell themselves if the retailers have had to make such massive cuts? The one problem was a QC problem, the other was a miscalculation about the demand for a one-off locomotive that doesn't even have the appeal of being in preservation. Honestly, if Hornby can sort out those two issues, maybe moving to a Rapdio-style order book system, then I think they could turn it around. Because, when they work like they are supposed to, they are great models. I love my Standard 2MT, in fact, I have another one in the post right now.
There's no reason they couldn't do order book style production as they currently like to announce everything years before it's ready. It would be much harder if they were doing it Bachmann style with quarterly announcements with products on shelves shortly after. I suppose part of the reason that might not work is because if you preorder then you pay silly prices so most of us are prepared to wait. Class 87 City of Birmingham was a good example for me. Didn't think it'd sell out, waited until it was in the TMC sale recently.
Rapido has had set backs with that poor GWR tank, My Accurascale Deltic went back, just gave up the ghost. I have only have 1 motor issue with an S15 from Hornby and are pretty happy with the suff I have bought.
@@andrewwarcup684 Same here, What's the point with this online shopping nonsense anyway i want to interact with human beings not be a slave to the computer i too like to see the model up close and personal.
I grew up in the 1960s in Australia, when Triang and Scalextric were available in just about every Sports and Toy shop in most towns. They even published a list of official sales and service shops. Sadly the retail world has changed, there are only a handful of shops left from which you can buy Hornby products. Because I grew up with them, I still want to, but it is very difficult now. I don't know what the answer is, at least I am at the stage where I have most items I want.
@@LittleWicketRailway growing up - you got your Train set from Hornby and a few other wagons to go with it - maybe a few extra locos - that's it You didn't go to them for top end stuff...
@gpnorman9453 half of that was thd old Tender drive tat. The MN and Q1 were the first top end locos. The WC and BoB were formerly tri-and locos which, with a detailing kit, could probably create a decent model. The Schools, Duchess, Princess etc were all old models re-tooled a couple of times
I have to agree with this. I sometimes feel like a lot more kids (with mum and dad's cash!!) would stay in the hobby a bit longer if there were products that were a natural next step after the Christmas 0-4-0 train set. I think it's too big a jump in cost from the cheap train sets to even Railroad products. They don't have a customer recruitment problem I don't think, it's a retention problem - and the upper end of the market is now very competitive as has been mentioned. They tried with play trains but that was too expensive for a casual toy, sadly.
The same dynamics were at play in the Australian HO scale scene over the past 30 or so years. Older brands that pioneered RTR Australian models like Powerline and Austrains didn't keep up with the customer trends for detail, accuracy, quality, range of prototypes, customer service and DCC. These brands still exist but are shadows of their former selves, outpaced by newer players that arrived in the 21st century.
Great video that makes Hornby a company that must be saved. The move to direct sales will need new warehousing. I find it strange that the current building is very dated and must cost a fortune to run. I hope that all Hornby products are now made in this country?
Hello, Thanks for a great video - I found it very interesting. And concerning Hornby future. Let's hope they can turn it around. Take care, Karl and Debbie
A good review of the state of Hornby, and they have to recognise their traditional market leader position is challenged in a number of sectors. As you suggest the newer competition is leaving them behind yet their prices indicate they deserve a premium, which is definitely not the case as many online reviews of the latest releases highlight. As a recently returning modeller, I have avoided buying anything from Hornby until the situation improves. It is a shame, but it suits me to be free from loyalty to their brand when there are so many other marques that impress and excite me!
Coincidentally Sam's Trains simultaneously released a video featuring some of the worst models he's reviewed and it's mostly Hornby. Based on that they don't deserve a premium.
I say Hornby should do 3 easy things. 1 Update the railroad flying Scotsman giving it proper lettering and numbering 2 Shrinking there engine roster cutting out some models and taking some out of production 3 Lower their prices on the railroad range of models. Yes while it should be a price decrease over the whole range it would make the most sense to declares the price on the railroad models so more people get into the hobby and can buy those models which makes it easier. Hopefully, we will get the USA tour flying Scotsman back as well i wish they stop doing limited editions of this you have the tooling it is a model most would love or just make an accessory kit for one of their new A3 tooling adding a clip-on cowcatcher Glue able bell and headlight with Second tender as a separate product it would be cheap to produce the components and would allow for people to get scots second tender without spending hundreds .
@@christopherbellamy639 Updating the J83 would be a good move. I've seen old photos of the actual locomotive back when they were in BR service and notice the window hatches on the hornby model look nothing like the actual thing. I'd like to see them in NBR livery as they were the original operators of the loco, then modellers will have something to run their 6 wheel NBR coaches with.
With the advent of eBay and the sheer volume of cheap second hand models available on it from generations and generations of buyers it's difficult to see the point of buying brand new, so-so accurate, models from Hornby at high prices?
I love it. Looking at HORNBY as THE company in model railroading. Thats very much UK....... And one of the reasons given for this is the "globally popular" brands that Hornby owns, such as Rivarossi, Jouef, Arnold and Lima. This is interesting, because it is pretended that these brands are the crown jewels of model railroading - and not companies that would probably no longer exist, had HORNBY not bought them. One may ask what HORNBY actually intended to do with these "world-famous" brands? They would hardly have brought anything to their own customer base, because these brands are all continental European and have hardly anything to offer to UK modellers with their strange OO gauge on narrow-gauge tracks. And for the rest of the modellers who model according to continental European or proper standard gauge models, these brands had too little to offer even before HORNBY bought them. At best, they outbid each other with poor quality
In the past buying up so called "world famous" brand names has caused the collapse of many large companies, will Hornby be any different??. For example, the whole debacle of BMC to BLMC to BL and the massive badge engineering project and poor management wiped that large company out quite easily..
Very interesting overview of the company .I imagine the next few months are crucial .With the rise in energy prices , fuel .food etc. people are cutting back on disposable spending .I think the company may survive but for how much longer is a difficult question. Prices are getting ridiculous .I know only but second hand .
One thing I don't like when buying direct from Hornby, is getting stung on delivery charges. Over the last few years I've pre-ordered several items at a time and when doing the check-out I see the total delivery is £5.95 (last time i checked). However as the Items were all sent out one by one, I get charged for each. That mounts up to a lot of extra money out of my pocket.
Out of interest why is £ 5.95 being "stung" on a delivery charge ? Given in most major towns and cities you'd not be able to park for less than £ 2 / hour that's before you add your time and cost of petrol for driving in.
If only Hornby had invested in high end OO modern locos instead of TT. Their recent OO modern models eg class 91, MK4 and dvt are very basic, poorly detailed and not up to modern standards. Hornby were at the top of their game 15/20yrs ago with their 60, 56 08 etc but since then the level of detail of their new models has got much worse whilst the competition has raced ahead. They need to listen to their core customers and stop producing tat that no-one actually wants (steampunk, Beatles, coca-cola, etc). Most of my spend is now with Accurascale. They're not cheap but they produce very detailed, quality models of locos I actually want!
Thought provoking video Rob. Yes Hornby are in a mess. Another aspect of their woes that perhaps you didn't dwell on was their propensity to milk ancient tooling tat. There have been so many examples in recent years. The Beatles tat. The Coca-Cola tat. Steampunk tat. It is shocking that they continue to wheel out products from tooling that is older than many of their customers - look at some of their wagons! Their high-end stuff tends to be quirky and unique (Hush-Hush, Rocket, Locomotion et al) but if they included a few more quality bread and butter items (such as the humble 16t mineral wagon and get producing them with different running numbers annually, they they would ensure a steady income stream year on year. The TT gamble was brave. It's very hard to know how it is really doing. To me, it's like they have admitted defeat in OO Scale and were looking for some territory to stake a claim. I think they missed a trick with their bully-boy tactics against competitors who try to muscle in on 'Hornby's turf' (Titgate anybody, plus the 66, the Terrier, the Generic 4/6 wheel coaches... the list goes on). None of these debacles have done anything positive for their reputation. I really would like to see them survive. The industry needs them, but not if they continue to be asleep at the wheel. Other more modern competitors such as Accurascale and Rapido seem to have figured out how to thrive in this market. Even Dapol has adapted and upped its game. Bachmann thrive because they make decent models that people want to buy. How many different versions of Flying Scotsman can you sell in any given year?
Hornby are not the Hornby founded by Frank Hornby, they are really descended from Tri-ang (Rovex) who acquired the failing Hornby (Meccano) company in 1964 and after subsequent takeover’s decided to drop the Triang name over the older, more established Hornby brand name. I totally agree re-launching a new TT range was a big mistake. Richard Lines who was in charge in the 50’s and 60’s is on record saying that TT range was in effect a bad idea because retailers didn’t want to stock a second range, it wasn’t a great seller and was nearly as expensive to produce as the 00 range. So why Hornby chose to repeat history and manufacture a brand new version of TT is mind boggling.
TT120 has huge potential. Space is an issue for modellers with modern living and lack of space for layouts that has made micro layouts in 00 popular because of this, with many not wanting fiddly N gauge. TT120 is the compromise and the chance to get new modellers who have little space for 00 and not want N gauge. But Hornby going it alone with few items is a risk even with a long term plan, they needed a collaboration really to share the load but also get more products and variety available.
Richard Lines is also on record for saying after seeing the rokal set they just had to make tt scale, as it was superb. Imagine if they'd concentrated on producing tt instead of their 00 range: those 3 years must've seemed like forever to get tt into production
Good analysis. Hornby OO has a very mixed bag of products, ranging from best in the industry to hopelessly outdated and ridiculously overpriced rubbish that tarnishes the brand. QC has got progressively worse and desperately needs attention. They also need to stop alienating both modellers and retailers with sharp business practices. Not sure about Airfix, Scalextric etc. but their management of the Corgi brand has in the main been absolutely dire.
One of the biggest complaints I have seen with Hornby starter sets is the low quality controller.I have seen some reviews with failures right out of the box.
at this point in time i have 2 locomotives pre-ordered with Dapol, 2 with accurascale, 3 with Rapido & only 1 with Hornby. That just shows there are far better options now than there was 10 years ago.
TT scale was popular for a short while in the 1960's. I had a friend at school who had a lovely layout. However, the scale gradually faded from view in the early 1970's, as 'N' gauge was introduced, and disappeared completely. I remember seeing lots of TT stuff being sold in a jumble sale.
@@brianartillery Different scale tho. Present Hornby is the "correct" (internationally recognised) 1:120 scale on track 12mm gauge. Triang 1960s was 1:101.6 on 12mm gauge. The larger scale to cope with the larger motors available at the time. In the 1990s I started building an exhibition layout in "British" TT of my local station. I bought a job lot of Triang stock from a Toyfair, improved the detail and running , scratch built track and Locomotives, but a house move put that on hold. 25 years later still haven't returned to Railway modelling. Was rather excited by the prospect of Hornby producing "The Perfect Scale" again but as it is 1:120 not going to invest! I also used to model in 4mm and have many scratch built and kit built locos, as well as the proprietary stuff, but as pointed out by others I am not going to spend £150 + on a loco or £25 for a wagon. Not when there are better bargains and better value for money models available at Toyfairs!
As for the Beatles loco...to anyone under the age of 60, The Beatles are irrelevant. Anyone over the age of 60 is not going to be interested in such a tacky rip-off. I think Hornby are DOOMED, just look at the way they treat retailers and direct sales, their products and their prices and the competition. Who on earth had the bright idea of investing huge amounts of money into trying to start up a TT market? Quite apart from the concept requiring a new customer base, to a modeller it is not just the locos and track, but all the other products that go to make up a layout.
The idea of TT being a new market is misleading. TT already existed. The reason that Simon spouted out in the announcement video was in order to make it more accessible and attract new fans who don't have much space, but seemingly he didn't get the memo. His idea was sound. But then they manufactured complex and detailed models for collectors and with suitably large prices to boot. The release was done just before Xmas. I always thought, if they really believed in Simon's words then they would have created cheaper and fun trainsets and got them on the shelves for Xmas with a big fan fair... Nothing of this sort happened and they massively missed the opportunity that was right under their nose. personally think it was a bold and brave move, idea being for new modellers to the hobby to start there but I can tell you as a modeller new to it from late 30s I would never have paid their prices to start the hobby. OO second hand was appealing due to it's accessible pricing.
I don’t know if this is legal but the forming of “the Hornby volunteers” dedicated to saving the memory and brand of preserving Hornby may be the way to go. I mean if they can do this sort of thing for community radio, then why not for model railways?
I don't want Hornby to go under and surprisingly to me talking to Peco at a show last year neither do they or other manufacturers, because Hornby is the famous name that gets people into the hobby. Sadly Hornby seem to have an attitude of our name is so big we will survive, but the reality is they have sat around too long and are now left behind as fewer newcomers enter the hobby, and established modelers look elsewhere for models that cost less yet have more detail. I don't think there is any quality control these days, the number of models that get returned in my local shop is something you rarely saw at one time. I still think Hornby are best for detail on their steam locomotives but the rest of the range relies a lot on old mouldings like Lima at huge prices. I have hardly bought anything this year because there is nothing that appeals to my 1970's era layouts There is a lot that could be made but they churn out the same old things time after time in a new livery and new higher price.
Sadly for me the price of Hornby items doesn’t match the quality of Hornbys modern stuff.Yet someone gave me a old Hornby 060 built in the 1970s and that still runs well today.
Very interesting analysis, Rob, and a very nicely put-together video. The forecast doesn't look good, does it? ☹️ I must admit, I didn't think Olly Raeburn's appointment was a good sign following his brief at Paperchase, let's keep our fingers crossed this isn't history repeating.
This is a fantastic video. Really well prwsented and researched. It would be a huge shame to lose a brand such as hornby but they clearly dont know thair market well enough.
Buying into Warlord Games was a good move if they can use that to create a hobby/modeller/gamer experience. Games Workshop - very successful - have captured many modellers/gamers when young and provide space to learn their hobby in the shops. Hornby could do similar things with Trains, Scalextric and Warlord - extending that Wonderworks idea across the country. Watching the TV program about Hornby filled me with frustration about the dynamism of the company - which is exemplified by the clobbering their business is getting by the purchasers of their products.
Games Workshop is a miniatures company; they achieve success through shifting plastic by the ton. Warlord are one of the bigger wargaming manufacturers but a tiny player in comparison to GW. Blood Red Skies Battle of Britain suggests they (Warlord + Hornby/Airfix) identified crossover that they could use to expand their market share, but that doesn't seem to have paid off judging by the sets being available at huge discounts. To the outsider there seems to be a scattergun approach to strategy, but some brands (such as Airfix) seem to have a more coherent and measured approach - it would be interesting to know how those brands are contributing to the overall health (or otherwise) of Hornby Hobbies' finances.
@@jamfjord I got the impression that Airfix might expand into non-military models. I think the new Head of Insights from Lego suggested that. Does tabletop gaming still work with 3D printers the same price as a Warhammer army?
@@LittleWicketRailway Games Workshop do have a problem with copies of some of their figures, not sure what steps they take to protect their IP. GW have created a retail environment where buyers can learn modelling and gaming. Can Hornby do the same? Pete Waterman allowed young people to control trains at Chester last year -very interesting. Could Hornby allow purchasers of their trains to run them on a track in their shops?
You use to be able Hornby Train sets in Tesco, WH Smith, High Street toy Shops. All long gone in terms of outlets. In Medway there use to be 6 shops dedicated to models, as well as the toy shops that would sell Hornby. Currently there are none. Where are they suppose to sell stock?
Hey, you know what'll definitely save them though? More 80s toolings at double the price they should be and more trash tier Beatles junk! That'll definitely turn around nearly a straight decade of losses!
@@LittleWicketRailway One of the packs from a year or two ago was a limited edition of 1 thousand, and nearly every online model retailer has plenty of them still in stock and at a discount, so forgive me if I'm a bit dismissive of Beatles model sales numbers.
As a lifelong fan of both the Beatles and model railways, none of it has any appeal to me except for the Yellow Submarine Eurostar which is of course out of production. That means even if I buy the one thing I want from this range Hornby won't get any money from me because I couldn't buy it during the brief window they were selling it.
@@blakesmith6303 I think that, instead, they should have done a Rolling Stones offer. With their recent offers, it is already "(I can't get no) Satisfaction" and "19th Nervous Breakdown"...
I'm more interested in the Warlord Games aspect than the model railway elements. In the tabletop gaming world there is a huge split between the generations. Older folks who grew up with airfix tend to be focused on historical based games, whereas younger people are heavily invested in sci fi, fantasy and superheroes. This split extends to the price they're prepared to pay with the historical being much cheaper. I suspect that creating higher price acceptance for the Hornby brands is going to be a struggle. You mention this towards the end with competitor brands. For Warlord this has seen a recent price hike so that a directly equivalent product is 50% more than most competitors. I suspect that these are dangerous omens.😢
As a historicals gamer, I have bought a fair bit of Bolt Action miniatures and vehicles. It's a great range but is becoming increasingly expensive compared to other offerings. The biggest cost hit for me was when Warlord forced Canadian customers to only use the US site thereby adding an unfavourable exchange rate onto existing price increases. For most of the standard items, like say a Sherman, I can get the same model cheaper from a local manufacturer or one in the UK - shipping and customs included. Based on their model railway performance Hornby's interest in Warlord does not bode well.
A good, insightful summary. As you say, direct sales equals more overheads, and if they are not shifting stock straight out to retailers but selling it themselves, their inventories of unsold stock are bound to be higher. It would be interesting to know what the trade discount is - based on previous experience of the book trade, I'd guess it might be as high as 70% of RRP.
I love British trains and I love Hornby oo trains (diesel & steam locomotives and new coaches & wagons, only with NEM couplers). I also love the Hornby Skaledale oo. It's a wonderful company with so many nice models to choose.
Given the number of famous brands that they have in their portfolio, it would be a crying shame if the company ceased trading. Let's hope a solution can be found that doesn't decimate the product line up.
Cessation of trading would see other brands sold off, if potential buyers see the likelihood of decent returns. Otherwise, they become historical footnotes.
One point that kills Hornby sales are the recurring quality problems on their models : glue sploshed all over the models, flimsy motors, and so ones... they are close to the price of German manufacturers likes Trix and Roco, but without the German quality... Honestly, if they can't manufacture proper OO modeller's quality models, they just have to ditch this market, period. They can concentrate on budget models they already have with their Railroad offer, keep the TT120 offer but putting more efforts on it (high demand for it as you said), especially on the quality department (they seems to do so), recapitalize by selling all the non-model railways brands they have, and the continental brands in their portfolio if not profitable (Rivarossi has nice Italian models, I bought some of them), eventually the molds of their railway offer to other manufacturers (Dapol would certainly be glad to buy the 9F, 7MT, Bob/West Country class and the GWR/SR stuff). And, please, stop throwing money through the window with silly ideas like the steampunk or the Beatles stuff nobody wants to buy... There is two choices now : be radical or be bankrupt. that's just my ideas, maybe completely naff, but I hope it would be of some interest for you.
They have had items that have sold out, supply did not meet demand; yet they never appear to address this, no doubt deemed not worth their while, by some bean-counter. They also need to address quality, and customer support. Both these latter are areas where Hornby fail to deliver. Also they don't listen, they're not alone in this. Furthermore the hobby is generally pursued by the elderly, thus their customer base is literally dying out. Go to any model railway exhibition, and look at the demographic. Yes, grandad will have taken his very young grandchlidren along, but teenagers, you'll see nary one.
I saw quite a few younger people at both GETS and the NEC when I went so I dontbthink the hobby's dying out. In fact at last year's GETS it got so crowded that they had to close the doors both days. Let's not also forget the recent TV exposure.
I might have continued the hobby had contemporary in-service electric trains I see daily in the South and South West been manufactured. 450s, (Bachmann ran some as well as 350s), 455s, 442s, 458s, 377s would be nice to see. I have no interest in steam trains anymore.
Same here in the North No every day trains we see either. Class 185, 333 have been around for years the 150, 158 units have been made but never highly detailed like the 156 and pacer we can get
I don't think they helped themselves with the legal hot water they got into with trying to release a Titfield Thunderbolt model when Rapido had the okay from Studio Canal. I have to admit I haven't bought any new Hornby items in a while, partly because nothing has been of interest but mostly because of price. Last things I bought new were some Ex-LSWR SR coaches and paid nearly half the full retail. It's also the RRP of some models with toolings are pushing at least 20+ years old, I got a Pug 0-4-0 when Hornby first acquired the toolings from Dapol in early 2000s and it cost me around £25 at the time. Granted there is the added DCC components but £90 for what is almost the same model now really doesn't feel worth it.
It may be a complete coincidence but Simon Kohler returned to Hornby and turned them around and they made a profit. Then he left Hornby and they go back into debt. Shows how good Simon was at his job:
@MichaelAustin-d6k Yeah. Under him they spent who knows how many £10,000s developing the Trains on Film range. A range they had to abandon because Kohler didn't check copyright law.
@@Poliss95 What were they thinking haha. It was from some pissant old movie they probably could have got the rights for pennies, but they just thought the rights holder wouldn't notice?
Rob, this is very good coverage of a very sad tale. It occurs to me that Hornby has a rather large missing dimension from its business. In many industries the strategy is to sell the product cheaper but to make back additional (and often recurring) money on spare parts or consumables. Manufacturing additional sets of model parts for each new model would probably not add a lot to the cost of a production run and could be used to create a saleable stock of spare parts. If it was done well the cumulative revenues from that would add up - especially if the parts were priced like automtive parts are to recoup the costs and make a profit. Hornby seems to do very little of this - for example I tried getting something as seemingly simple as a replacement coach bogie for a MK2 BR coach (of which Hornby must have made and sold millions) but Hornby has none. I am no fan of the sell-at-cost make-money-on-spares-and-consumables business model that so many industries now use - but it does seem to work for them. I would have grumbled about paying £7-8 for the coach bogie (if it had been available) but I would have bought it.
Selling spare parts is an inventory management nightmare. Instead of selling X-number of models and having to keep each one in stock only until it's sold out, you end up having to stock a bazillion items, and keeep them indefinitely.
@@beeble2003 Yes, but all small items and eminently suitable for computer indexing. Sell a coach for maybe £40 or sell a replacement bogie (costing pennies to make if done at the time the model is in production) or chassis for £15-£20 - seems like someone would be able to make money from that if it was done right and of the original modesls sell in sufficient quantity. There are a lot of people making money from such a business model
Part of the problem for me with Hornby are the extortionate pricing, poor availability of spares and what seems to be endemic poor customer service. Equally, a vast majority of their main range diesels are being done better and cheaper bythier competitors
I would read the balance sheet quite differently. The opportunities that Hornby Hobbies has been working hard to create are within the figures but all the armchair experts see are costs. There are number of other indicators 😉 TT:120 was without doubt the smartest move Hornby made within the last 30 years. The numbers are undeniable, although some still try. There are a lot more very interesting developments within the company, there is plenty of life in the old dog yet 😁
I got fed up waiting years for models to arrive and they were not new ones with development bugs but reliveries. Hornby would rather rush out other models to spite other manufacturer's releases (Hattons coach; Dapol Terrier) or launch TT120 than fulfill the orders it had. Then, after telling everyone to pre-order to guarantee supply, another order with Rails of Chef Field was abruptly cancelled after Hornby stopped supplying them with no reason given. One point not made in the video is that Hornby tried this direct marketing / cut out the model shops approach a few years ago and if IIRC it didn't do well then and they had to eat humble pie. I gave up and now focus on O gauge. Rapido are making attractive, small steam locos which I've continued buying, but nothing from Hornby appeals. Small steaming locos might tempt me back, but otherwise after being treated as a second class citizen I'd happily see them go bust.
For me they need to address their quality which (based on my TT experience) is pretty dire. Of my 7 locos 6 have failed multiple times. They also need to bring their stock to market quicker and replenish popular stock quickly. I hope they survive but I have my doubts.
Hornby should bite the bullet and manufacture in HO scale already. OO scale is such a small market compared to HO, i think they would be surprised at how well they would do.
Isn't Mike Ashley involved now ?? Hopefully he can inject some quality control and pricing issues to all their products Wish them all the very best Excellent overview
My thoughts on this are 1) I believe that Hornby has priced themselves out of the market, 2) why not bring manufacturing back to Great Britain as the models are made in China which I believe are putting costs up, I personally cannot get anything from My local dealer as I believe that they have been down graded as they can't get items from Hornby.
Hornby would be able to appeal to me personally if they made a load of pre-grouping steam locos at a good quality for an affordable price. If necessary, add more liveries to their 4 and 6 wheel coach lineup. I have no idea if that kind of thing would sell well, but it would get me buying more Hornby stuff.
I can only see Hornby turning things around if they behave like the new kids on the block, they should slash their headcount, sell any asset that isn't revenue generating and cut their range by 60% to focus on what sells. So goodbye most of the steam loco range. Well done for really digging deep into this Rob, some of those figures are eyewatering and clearly unsustainable.
For me, the two key areas that Hornby are failing in: 1. Attracting new customers to the hobby with affordable and value products. 2. Developing products based on the current real world rather than relying on history.
I suspect they are not shifting stock because of the price. When the prices are very high, people are going to be very choosey and only invest in rolling stock that they really like. I'm fairly well off and tried to get into the hobby last year, but the overall cost proved to be way too high and on the whole that cost did not reflect the quality of the items I received. If their margins are high on the models (no one knows for sure), then it is a no-brainer to reduce the price they are selling them at.
I really hope so too, but even a 10% increase in prices is only £5m and that doesn't come close to reversing the loss. If they can bring inventories down by £5m then that's another big chunk. Ultimately then need to sell more, at higher prices, whilst at the same time reducing costs. Edit: I would be so interested to see their 5 year financial model.
Going public allowed them access to funds to improve their models but this came at the price that they were now at the mercy of shareholders and their demand for dividends and bonuses.
It's not just the trains but also Scalextric a few years ago they introduced a new track called start. Why would anybody who already has a track invest in a new set of track that doesn't connect to the main Scalextric track. So they invested all the that money into new tooling to make a competitor for their own track 😢 not surprisingly they stopped making it.
I'm surprised they have not reintroduced the old Lima/Rivarossi code 83 component track system. I do feel that could be a success owing to the finer scale track profile. It was a good system.
A very good assessment of the situation.
When the Hornby importer for Canada closed its doors all my pre-orders were cancelled. I approached Hornby for a trade account for my store. After 12 months of emails and phone calls which went unanswered by the Hornby International Sales Manager we decided to give up on Hornby. We are the largest exclusively British model train retailer in North America - deciding not to carry any new Hornby products was an easy decision - absolutely no regrets.
That's a real shame. I believe they've hired someone new to look at international sales, so it may be worth trying again.
Hi Nigel - What's your company? With Hatton's gone, I've been looking for a Canadian/NA shop with reasonable prices.
What shop? I am from New Zealand but now live in the USA. I would certainly be interested in buying British trains if they were easily available in North America. I order most of my stuff from the UK.
I don't understand how Hornby can be online marketing and selling to hobby shops. To me this means they are in competition with their retailers. I know other companies ( not just model products) do this as well. So you local supplier is ip against companies with much larger marketing budgets.
History repeating. The model train hobby has a trail of failures and takeovers. The current Hornby is really the old Triang who took over Hornby (Mechano and Hornby Dublo) decades ago (using Triang/Hornby as an interim name). Rovex, Lions Bros and others have all been and gone. Triang later went down the tubes, and lost the rights to the name. Aghast it goes on, and on.
What an excellent video Rob.
The research that you have carried out is both phenomenal and admirable.
Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie 👍🏼
Hi, great overview of a company that back in the day was like a religion to many modellers, speaking from experience I don’t buy Hornby products anymore unless they are in sales or maybe coaches that never have any issues as far as I’m concerned, I spent a lot of money on 2x’s HST packs with noisy fan units that were horrendous, I got no help from Hornby even though they were weeks old! I even offered to pay for some new fan units but they said they didn’t do spares, that was 2 years ago and I haven’t purchased any Hornby products since, the customer service department is terrible in my opinion, the locomotives run faultless but the fans have been disconnected because they are not fit for purpose, I don’t care if modellers say it’s Hornby bashing, it’s not bashing it’s calling out a crap feature that doesn’t work as it should, I do like some of their new locomotives but I won’t purchase them unless they are seriously cheap and I can get spares if they fail to perform and breakdown, it’s a shame real modellers don’t run the company because some of their products are very bad and let modellers down on a regular basis with cost and corner cutting exercises that ruin their models, their quality control is non existent and the way items get here from China in a state that aren’t picked up even by retailers, the constant use of very old mouldings is beyond a joke now, the prices are beyond a joke so I steer clear until they get their products correct and fit for purpose, thanks for sharing.
The lack of spares department is a common complaint. Establishing that would 1) be a revenue stream and 2) improve their reputation with modellers.
@@LittleWicketRailway Hornby just seeing it as spares is also a bit short sighted imo, if they just produced a limited range of chassis and then sold 'alternative' add-ons, i.e. different liveries, body's etc. then people could buy a single loco but rather than buy a new one, alter an existing. At which point you can bet your dollar that they would soon decide to buy a second chassis and make themselves 2 locos.
Totally agree, I too get accused of Hornby bashing on the Forums. I really don't think those people live in the real world. Many of their locos need removing, they may have been good 30 years ago but compared to what you can get now from other manufacturers, they are just not competitive. I just get the opinion they think if they keep certain Model Railway reviewers happy by lending them models they can fool the rest of us to keep buying them.
@@LittleWicketRailway I don't know, keeping spares is expensive ask Ford about that big warehouse in Daventry. The issue though is they don't provide any. Who is going to pay £250+ for a loco that they might scrap because they can't fix it when it goes wrong.
Unfortunately,
As You said, Accurascale, Dapol & Rapido are able to make more details models at a much lower cost.
Which is also driving people away from Hornby,
Why pay £300+ for a model that they can’t even package securely that has a high chance of arriving damaged.
When You can buy a more detailed model from someone else much cheaper and packaged more securely,
I hope Hornby are able to change things,
But we shall have to wait and see.
The counter argument to that is they all tend to specialise in slightly different models. Accurascale in big diesels, Rapido in pre-grouping, etc. Only Hornby and Bachmann have a broad range.
I'm mainly a steam fan (with a few early diesels). Hornby have by far the best range of steam locos, therefore the vast majority of my models are Hornby. However their prices mean I tend to buy a lot secondhand and of course Hornby don't see any of that money.
Pushing more people to the secondhand market is arguably a bigger threat to Hornby than other manufacturers limited ranges IMO.
Accurascale’s sister company Irish Railway Models,Irish Railway Models and Murphy Models catering for the Irish market something Hornby have neglected for yrs and continue to do so. Hornby doesn’t seem to understand that modeller’s in Ireland purchase their products,so it would be nice to see Hornby produce an Irish RTR steam model like the 800 class (only three were built at Inchacore Dublin by CIE) In all my time attending various model railway exhibitions throughout Ireland I’ve never come across a Hornby stand.
I love the hornby brand, but let's face facts here - the products are cheap and dire, poor packaging, garbage controllers, worst sounds I've ever heard from a sound fitted model and top tier products are far over priced given the plastic empty shells. Other brands like accurascale for example, offer exceptional detail affordable prices
@@nails6365Quality control is also an issue.
@Whizzy-jx3qe that'll never happen, they had their chance and they chose to ignore it. They could easily have done it in the past especially after the Lima purchase in the early 2000's, mark 3 and mark 2 for coaches in Irish livery using the Lima moulds.
Before Murphy and IRM, irish modellers were screaming for rtr models and hornby sat on their hands.
Best chance for an Irish rtr steam loco will be from IRM.
Lower your prices Hornby. It's too expensive for what it is.
If they didn't increase prices then they'd either need to sell more or cut costs. Upping prices is the easy option.
@@LittleWicketRailway And possibly a fatal one too.
@@LittleWicketRailway Sell more at lower price, Production run will be more thus lower cost.
You guys are just starting to pay nearly the same as we do on the continent. Hornby is still cheap compared to continental manufacturers.
@@stormbowman7148I was going to say something similar. UK model prices are starting to catch up with the real world.
back in the late 80's early 90's when I was a kid my dad had a model railway and Hornby was struggling then I've always remembered Hornby struggling to stay afloat. And that was before the rise of video games and digital media like we have today. me and my dad are working on a new OO layout now and I always watch your vidoes 🙂
Apart from the name, the Hornby of today has nothing to do with the one started by Frank Hornby. Hornby today is a direct descendant of Tri-ang, even the red and yellow brand colours are Tri-ang. Margate is the Tri-ang factory rebranded. I think it is important to be accurate about history. Having said that, it is a worry that Hornby seems to be flailing about with all sorts of ideas that seem to cost more than they deliver. I hope they can consolidate and find a smooth business path that may lead to more cost effective products that don't cost too much. The COVID bubble seems to have created more interest in the hobby and not just with old people either, there are lots of young ones looking starry eyed at train shows as well. Fingers crossed for Hornby.
Pauline is correct in saying that the present "Hornby" has nothing to do with Frank Hornby's company. The present "Hornby" started as Rovex, part of the Lines Brothers Tri-Ang group. All my classmates at school had Hornby railways or the Meccano construction kits. I was given Tri-Ang trains or something called Vogue construction kits. Needless to say, the rival brands weren't compatible! I have heard from several retailers that "Hornby" don't speak to other makers, for example on track and wheel flange standard. They go their own way . . . It can't help! I do hope the firm recovers, soon, but I have my doubts on how likely it might be.
Yes, I always think of today's Hornby as being Triang...
Todays Hornby is Rovex Triang in the Hornby name. Fact! The Hornby name or brand only survives by 2 quirks of fate! Hornby went bust in 1965. Hornby have not been at Margate for 70 years at all! Frank Hornby is not todays Hornbys founder. It was the gentleman that invented Rovex plastic trains that became Triang Railways.
Dont you get sick of Hornby Trumpesque alternative facts!
Fair enough but to me Hornby got too big for their boots, sell of some of the companies they bought to generate extra capital. Do away with geeky tech only suited to dweebs in sharp suits wearing glasses, improve their PR , customer communication skills and act like human beings, not f-----g suits chasing his or her next company car upgrade from BMW. Bring back in house production, concentrate on what they are good at, model railways ,slot cars, plastic kits and diecast models, especially affordable diecast model toys to take on Mattell Matchbox. In its current form Hornby is heading one direction, down the toilet(lavatory).
@petergraham7731 But it's the same with Bachmann. That is just the trading name bought by Kader. Nothing to do with the original Bachmann of US origins
I live in the US and anything Hornby touches is avoided like the plague for the bad quality. Rivarossi used to be considered a good quality brand, with moderate pricing, here in the states but after they got acquired by Hornby, the prices for them went sky high and quality into the toilet or the loo as the brits say. Had a close family friend spend close to 2k (Model plus import tax) on Big Boy model with all the bells, whistles, lights, working fake steam, DC/DCC back in 2018, only to receive it completely smashed.
The only good news is if you have any pre-Hornby Rivrossi, that's now going for a premium on the used/second hand market.
A completley smashed up model is nothing to do with Hornby though. thats down to the shipping comapany and the postman, to Hornby's defence.
Everything else you say is 100% fair and accurate tho!
@NathanielKempson a beat-up package is expected in the U.S. However, how that's product is packed to be sent out is on the company itself. His was nothing more then the retail packaging, that you see on a self inside a box store, inside a empty box and a mailing label on said box.
Wonderworks should have been built next to a major heritage railway
@@stewartdickson7184 Totally agree. The Great Central at Loughborough, right in the middle of the country. Or the Severn Valley or Gloucester and Warwickshire.
Hornby would shift more stock if they didn't keep slapping the Beatles branding on Ex Thomas bodyshells and reusing the older tooling constantly for irellivent liveries.
How so ? If those items sell - albeit to the non-enthusiast market then they bring money into the company. And the R&D costs of such models is much, much lower than producing a brand new, rivet perfect model of whatever.
I used to design electronics for Hornby back in the late 1980’s. Their first pulse width modulation controller was one of mine. At that time they were struggling to compete with China, and eventually a lot of the locomotives and rolling stock that are hand painted were moved to China. The labour rates just cannot be ignored. I’m not a railway modeller myself, but I do build Airfix military and naval stuff. The last few releases in 1/72 have had some dreadful errors in them. That just won’t fly in the 2020s They reboxed some Academy craft Armour, changed the decals and wanted a lot more money for the same kit as academy were making. Why buy the Airfix kit when I can get the Academy one cheaper?
I get the impression that there is a huge disconnect between their marketing department, market research, design and senior management. They just don’t listen to their customers. I also think that the people they employ don’t have any passion for modelling.
The prices of new train models ect have gotten beyond belief. It's no longer a hobby for children but for adults with cash to spend.
This. Haven't touched model railways since childhood, but after watching some videos I was curious about giving it another go, maybe a little N-gauge layout. But the prices were a bit shocking. £300+ OO-gauge locos must be catering to a small and fading niche in a world where so many other hobbies and gadgets are competing for our attention. Makes other potential-money-pit hobbies (e.g. RC helis/drones, Lego, 3D printing, and of course gaming) seem fairly good value.
@bluescrndotnet you can do model Railways on a budget. I started by buying new, but switched to second hand and started collecting and fixing up old Triang models. £12 - £30 for a tank engine, a little more for tender engines. £10-£20 for coaches. Yes, sometimes I buy a dud, but I can buy a loco and a whole rake of coaches for the price of one new engine, and just as much enjoyment too!
It never was that cheap. Online there's an image of a Hornby 1987 price list - here's some examples of why I think you're wrong. 1987 - Silver Fox A4 £ 46.50 - equivalent to £ 163 today. Rails of Sheffield has a brand new Hornby A4 for £ 125. The 1986 Argos catalogue (on line) has an Inter City 125 set for £38.95 (RRP £55.99) equivalent to £ 138 / £ 198 today - you want an Inter City 125 set brand new today ? £140 on line. So there are two myths out there - one is model railways "used to be cheap" - which they never were in real terms. The other is prices have rocketed up - again, in real terms (i.e. taking inflation into account) that really isn't the case.
I don't understand why Hornby did not invest in producing H0 models instead of TT. The gauge is identical, so they might be able to reuse parts of the mechanism. They already own several H0 manufacturers. And there almost is zero British rolling stock available in H0, which is the biggest model railroad market out there.
Been saying the same for years. If they had went modern British HO it opens up the European market for them with ferry vans and so on. I model British HO and it gives way more advantage than TT and takes up not much more space and a collosal range of acessories from world wide.
Interesting point. Especially from a technical point of view, there is nowadays ZERO constraints to manufacture UK Ho models like there were in the early 1930s.
@@OlivierGabin their track system was already HO so no money wasted on new TT track. It's nuts really.
@@ArcadiaJunctionHobbies Especially when you see the poor quality of their TT track compared to the German offer by Tillig... If I wanted someday to do some UK (or else) TT modelling, I would buy Tillig track, and nothing else. Even Piko, which manufactures TT models, don't lose their time manufacturing TT tracks.
What's the point of making both HO and OO? Any European modeller who wants to run British trains on their tracks can already run OO on their HO track.
They need to address their pricing. With a typical loco now in the region of £300. I no longer even consider purchasing new rtr models. Having said that I have just purchased a brand new rr+ Class 47 with dcc sound for £107.00 so it can be done. This leads to the other issue you raised, direct sales, direct from hornby this model is about £40 more and, I am not sure that was sound fitted. I am sure my local retailer had a margin on the sale. How big a margin are Hornby seeking?
All good points. Seems like they need big margins to generate any profit.
LGB massively increased their prices and have turn the page. I dont see myself chucking out 300 or 45 quid for a wagon. No thanks.
@@gpnorman9453 I thought LGB closed?
Edit: just googled and they were bought by marklin in 2007.
This is why I didn't get into OO and stuck with HO by ROCO, Piko Etc. I would by the Rivarossi and LIma and jouef stuff by hornby that's the only reasonably priced products they seem, to sell. A bit pricy still but less than hornby.
The local retailers chuck the prices down to move them off their shelves. My local shop said the new models just sit on the shelves collecting dust. They sell more 2nd hand. When they need space they send them all back... Total waste if you ask me. Sure we would all buy them if the pricing was reasonable in the first place.
Very useful video. Thanks for taking the time to research/produce it. As you point out you simply cannot compare HORNBYwith the likes of Accurascale or Rapido. They have to innovate to find new markets. By far the greatest innovations recently have come from them, being Hm7000 and TT. Not saying you have to love either, but surely both are examples of them trying to turn it round. They def need to work much harder to offload stock. And yes, improve direct sales to. 24hr turnaround.
Just remember this....Hornby/ Triang have gone bust many times before.
And so have nearly ALL the other manufacturers.
Its the nature of the beast of model railways.
It's nothing new.
Having worked in a model shop I can say that Hornby were the worst to deal with. One time they sent us an invoice to pay for some preorders and, upon phoning them to pay, we were told that our preorders had been sold to someone else! Needless to say, no more preorders with Hornby from that point
Wonderworks (the Hornby visitor centre) is a brilliant place to visit. Problem is it's geographical position makes it very difficult for 90% of the country to go (unless you happen to be on holiday in East Kent).
yeah i've often fancied visiting hornby but as you say being at the a*** end of the UK, it's not a place that can be visited quickly if you live, North, or West of London unfortunately that's most of the UK :(
Same point can be made of the National Railway Museum (York and Shildon). And it's more like 75% - a combination of Kent, E Sussex, Greater London, Essex and Herts (all of which can easily get to Margate for a day trip) are about 15m people in a country of ~60m.
@@peddersmeister really ? I used to live in Hertfordshire and drove to Canterbury, Whitstable, Margate for day trips. It's easily done - and even more so now if you want to do it by train with HS1 from St P.
No one wants Hornby to fail. However, everyone has a budget, and for me the number one criteria is quality. Rightly or wrongly I view Hornby as suspect on this front and hence won’t invest in Hornby products unless I’m sure of its quality. I entered this hobby two years ago and have to date purchased two Hornby items, magnetic couplings and TTA wagons which are both excellent. If my view is typically it shows what needs to be addressed. People will pay for a quality product.
I work in manufacturing and everyone is taking it hard right now. Terrible projections for early 2025 especially for luxury items. The cost of living crisis is catching up hard to industry. If the customers don’t have the money theres not much anyone can do.
There is,we can blame the appropriate people, Johnson, Farage and their Brexit con.
@@grahamsmith2022 This is global I think. It's natural that we only look locally, but this stress is worldwide. Here in the U.S people also focus on the local situation but it's far beyond national borders.
@goarmysleepinthemud. I don't think the USA would ever be stupid enough to erect trade borders and barriers with its nearest and biggest customers upon itself,the only thing booming is the masses of paperwork needed now for the UK to trade with Europe.
Hi Rob! Excellent video! It shows that you've put a lot of work into this, from research to presentation! Great job! I model in N gauge now, so don't have much to do with Hornby, but they made up the majority of my model railway collection when I was a kid back in the 70s and 80s, so I have a soft spot for them, and it's sad to see them going through such hard times! Not sure that TT was ever a good idea financially, nor trying to become a sole retailer of their products! One thing I do know, is if you're struggling to sell your product, increasing prices isn't the smartest of ideas, especially when competitors have more detailed and reliable offerings costing less! I really do hope they pull through, as a model railway landscape without Hornby seems unthinkable! All the best, Ian.
Great watch, thanks for puting this together. In my humble opinion, Hornby buries it's head in the sand regards to listening to customers and understanding what is important to people now. The world has changed exponentially regards to retail, products, interests and customer service. In my experience, Hornby have failed to keep up with these changing demands, and other manufacturers are quickly over taking in these fields. It would be a crying shame for Hornby to disappear as they are part of UK heritage and hold fond memories from my childhood, hope it's not too late for them to make a U-turn and restore faith from their customers.
I hope they listen and turn it around too. That's the thing, everybody wants Hornby to be successful! They are *our* brand.
Hornby is unsustainable from what you present here. They are being overtaken by newer firms. Their products are of variable quality, highly priced - except Railroad - and customer support is very basic lacking even a decent spares facility being more a toy sales operation rather than a modellers support system. For example I am now upgrading my old Hornby Mk1 coach couplings using an independently created 3D printed NEM pocket requiring a bit of work on each bogie. By contrast when I was upgrading old tool Bachmann Bullied coaches I could buy new Bullied bogies from Bachmann with upgraded couplings and metal wheels and just replace the old bogies. In all I would not mourn the end of Hornby.
You are correct about Mike Ashley he buys shares in companies he knows are likely to end up bankrupt and can be brought cheap to add to his business empire. One theory I have about the TT scale is Hornby wanted to create a new market that the company has complete control over but didn't have the money to pay for development hence the huge 00 gauge price hikes to cover the cost. The protectionist retail policy of only TT purchases could be made though their website together with no retailers was allowed to stock it was about controller and maximum profits. But this harmed TT only when Hornby allowed retailers to sell it sales improved. Hornby and Bachmann have failed to understand the impact of new manufacturers on the market and have fallen to the wayside. I have no answers on what Hornby could do but time is limited for a turn around.
Agree I think SK did a load of damage TT120 is a disaster, and requires massive investment for a long time. He also stopped supplies to Rails, their biggest retailer as they produced their own loco.
I just don't see the point of TT. If it's successful, all it does is fragment the market, which makes things worse for everybody, because it makes the market for any individual model smaller, so it makes every model less profitable. Meanwhile, it increases costs for the manufacturers.
Just had a look at a Sheffield retailer website they are knocking up to 46% off Hornby TT scale. That's a fair bit off the normal price if TT had been successful why the high discount?
@@ChaileyLeavers11 SK comes across as a rather arrogant and waspish character who thinks he knows more than he actually does. He has a lot to answer for, not sure why so many seem to think he is Mr Wonderful.
@@paulc9588 I almost think the directors left him to run the outfit, the programs that featured hornby showed more men playing with trains rather than trying to make a profit.
The only business model that works in 2024 is the Accurascale model. Mainly online, everything is preordered, so they know how exactly how many to order from the factory, so they are not left with thousands of items in the warehouse that need to be heavily discounted or scrapped. Preordering means that if the demand is not there to make the release profitable, it doesn't progress past a CAD drawing (Steampunk, TT:120 etc.). Hornby's problem is they need to borrow cash because they can't dispose of their stock. Solve that problem, they will survive.
Agree about the model except TT. I don't think they could have sold that concept as preorder, I think they needed to launch with something tangible and capitalise on the buzz of a new thing. My issue with the strategy was limiting it to direct sales. Also heard the track was crappy.
@@gwheregwhizz that's not considering that they probably have got order contracts with the Chinese factories that they signed up to, so they have to produce certain quantities or risk breach of agreement 🤝... There's probably loads of stuff like that at play here.
The problem is this strategy only works on existing collectors. Yes it is a good strategy for a new company, but not one that allows them to grow once they have saturated existing customers. For all their faults, Hornby are trying to find new customers and that is much more risky as they pump so much more into marketing and more risky ventures - Steampunk for instance. They would love to replicate what Lego has achieved - an old fashioned toy that was really under pressure from all sides, that worked well with innovation to re-generate as successful company. Model Railways is just one part of their business, so they are pulled in many different directions.
Hearing that Mike Ashley has become involved should certainly send all decent people running away.
I'm not going to slate hornby but when I was buying in the 80s and 90s they had lots of products I was interested in I just couldn't afford now I can buy what ever I like they don't sell anything I'm interested in I've always wanted a 310 or a 308 from hornby but it never came they just remade the apt I already have and the new one doesn't have the appeal. And the tt farce imo was to cut costs without actually asking the market what it wanted
Not only that but a lot of what they sell now are worse than what they sold in the 90's. I tried to build a layout recently with new Hornby track and not a single point out of about 20 in the shop had a properly working spring so I switched to Peco. I wanted to buy a model of Mallard but the only one available was their 'railroad' version with an unfinished paint job (why is my 90's Flying Scotsman a better model than a 2020's one?). They were just releasing their super detail Pullman coaches when I left the hobby in 2002 and was hoping to get some only to find the ones they sell now are the Tri-ang models! I wanted to get new coaches to replace the classic teaks but again they stopped producing their nice teaks in favour of the old ones I was looking to replace, and getting anything decent was impossible unless I wanted an entire train of only BR green brake thirds. So I bought some Bachmann coaches instead...
" I've always wanted a 310 or a 308 from hornby but it never came" Because the market for EMUs is small. the market for OHLE EMUs is even smaller and the market for a unit which ran on only a couple of lines is miniscule. But the costs of things like R&D and production aren't any cheaper for items with a relatively small market.
I'm from the US and even I know the prices that Hornby sells their wares at are absurd. Lower the prices, improve the QA of the products, fix the distribution of products in retail, and actively work to get newcomers into the Model Railroading hobby, it's not rocket science. Hopefully management isn't too thick-skulled to fix the mess they made for themselves.
I just wish the team all the very best. We need Hornby.
I agree, Hornby is where my love of model railways came from back when they had the rights to make Thomas & Friends models. This range is where I got my first ever train set, I loved it to bits as a kid. I wanted to expand but my family couldn't afford to buy brand new models so we just had to stick with second hand and buy what we could afford without breaking the family chequebook.
The models from Hornby that I've collected in recent times have been a bit hit and miss. Their J15 and Terriers were of good quality but I've heard some people who've paid £200 or more for locos with bits breaking off and performance issues. Unacceptable from a business point of view, people who are paying lots for a loco should have a very good quality model.
Personally I think Hornby should have gone to N Gauge rather than TT, this is because Hornby previously produced resin-cast buildings for the N Gauge market and could've easily reintroduced that range. A budget N Gauge range would have been good as it is good for newcomers to the hobby and would've been more affordable as well as addressing space issues. That's just my take on the matter. I hope Hornby do try to survive because I'd hate to see them gone forever.
One sensible comment is a sea of Hornby haters
Thanks for the great video Rob. Hornby also produces models for the European & US markets under the Arnold, Rivarossi, Joeuff, Electrogen & Lima brand names. All of these brands were formally the "Hornby" companies of their respective countries so even more important that Hornby can turaround its business and become financially viable as well as producing great models.
Thank you for another very useful piece of analysis. It’s good to have some hard evidence against which to test my thoughts. Those are that: 1) Simon K had been allowed too much rein to commission new products; and 2) Hornby’s Head Office overheads are excessive compared to its new ‘cottage industry’ competitors.
The Post Office Horizon Inquiry put recent former Chairman Henry Staunton on witness stand on 1st October. From 51’34” he talks about ‘huge numbers swinging around’ giving a net defecit in 2022 of £160m. He blames management not having a sufficient grip on costs. I wonder if Hornby suffers from a similar attitude. A telling sign was Margate’s very recent shop sale included the ultra brand new Grand Central HST set in its bargain discount boxes.
First up, I am a long suffering Hornby shareholder. If it were not for the major shareholders, I think Hornby would have gone under long ago or at least been bought and asset stripped. My understanding is that the major shareholders are railway enthusiasts so are more inclined to support Hornby although I am sure there are limits. The good news is that these shareholders have significant resources to call upon so can support Hornby indefinitely should they choose to. Personally, if I was them, I would take Hornby private and remove the costs and burden associated with being a PLC. You could then restructure the business without the same level of public glare and potentially IPO again in the future (assuming the business can be turned around). Hornby has amazing brands but I suspect these can also be a curse as they no doubt have and inherited inefficient processes and costs which the new entrants into the hobby do not have. I wish Hornby and everyone who works there every success as I am sure they are passionate about what they do.
Back in the 80s, when Hornby was on the rocks (again), my father was hired to sort it out. He did so, and I recall his saying that their biggest problem was that their range was too wide and that thereby they were carrying a huge inventory. He fixed it and the company thrived for a number of years under his leadership. From my own observations and the comments of others on this video, it appears that they've fallen into the same trap again
What was his background? Accountancy, retail, manufacturing, ?
If they had paid attention to quality control at the manufacturing point, and given up on churning out ancient, and overpriced sets of tat (Beatles pack comes to mind here), which nobody wanted, and utter rubbish, that was purportedly Era 1 rolling stock, but wasn't even close - and just pulled a ridiculous high price out of the air for it, or even updated the mechanical parts of their engines, and stopped using cheap motors, then they might just have avoided being where they are now.
Having a team of 'Yes Men' in charge didn't help either.
When I was a teenager here in Australia there used to be a decent selection of Hornby and lima products ..I don't think we get the same selection from Hornby anymore...not what's offered in the UK.or maybe I'm imagining it..
Hearn's Hobbies has a decent assortment of Hornby but I don't even look at them because they're completely incompatible with the Australian models (HO scale w. kadee couplers) I'm more interested in. If I was to ever get international trains, I'd sooner import from the US since theirs would actually fit my current trains than locally purchase the poorly fitting Hornby models.
After starting back into the hobby back in 2021, I went to 009 as it gave me the room to build with n gauge track with the convenience of OO models. I looked at TT but there is nothing being modelled that I want as i would model southern. I wouldn’t spend out on a loco i have no interest in so TT is a non starter for me. The only thing i now buy from hornby is their HM7000 decoders for the sound. Shame really as i always had hornby stock.
Really well presented and balance view thanks. As an engineer for a UK vehicle manufacturer I have an insight to design, manufacturing and sales etc. I’d love to see the numbers behind the products and where they are loosing money. Can’t help feel they are stretched too wide with such a large product portfolio. I’d also love to see the business cases for railroad products versus a top end Railways or Dublo model (speaking 00) personally a big fan of the railroad stuff (terrible US derived name for UKmodels) but like the price and idea. It is what Hornby should focus on I believe but I don’t see the numbers behind the products.
I grew up with Hornby and remember when Mainline came to market. I already avoided Lima as my loyalty was to the market leader at the time. I came back to the hobby just 3 years ago and my first purchase was Hornby. Sadly very little of my stock is Hornby as, in line with your comments, I am buying from Dapol, Accurascale and Rapido. Thanks for an interesting analysis. I do hope Hornby can make it, but high prices for inferior models will not attract serious modellers. I hope TT: 120 can save them, because their OO range is failing to deliver.
Did anyone notice that Fraser group (sports direct) are one of the owners? That’s scary.
With their Scalextric range they produce attractive accurate bodyshells of both classic and modern cars great.
But as they are designed purely as home use cars that need a magnet to perform, they are missing out on the race clubs market, if they designed the chassis to be raceable, as slot it and NSR and Thunderslot, but also nicked an easily removable magnet, then they could sell to both markets.
A Scalextric car at approximately £55 is poor value compared to a slot it at £65.
It would be interesting to see a sales profit and loss breakdown for the group, which sector is holding up, increasing or going down.
Their corgi classic reissue cars are nice and not too expensive compared to originals, have bought a few, don't know how many Airfix modellers are out there currently, seems Lego can't go wrong at the moment, they have a new tie up for Formula 1 starting next year .
Difficult times for Margate, I wish them well.
Phoenix have a stake in Games Workshop who have moved into the same strategy of using direct sales, limiting items available to the independent sales outlets until the activity reduces from direct sales leaving the retailers with excess stock long after the initial hype has faded. GW also have a HQ / Visitors Centre that is exteremely popular. GW make a lot of money. Warlord Games are former memebers of the management team at GW before it went public and whilst nieche compared to GW they have a regular drum beat of games whilst retaining a core WW2 Wargame as their mainline. Hornby owning all of the classic brands seem to be a company without a single focus other than nostalgia, which is no bad thing but needs a bit more of a direction. And yes the visitor centre and HQ is at the end of the world, too far away for the majority.
It is a pity, we do have companies that, at least publically, are doing great like Rapdio and Accurascale, but they are not being weighed down by years of poor decisions and scandal after scandal.
Every groundbreaking release from Hornby has seen some major setbacks, like the Black Fives, TMC just massively discounted the DCC Sound version of the Turbomotive £200. How does Hornby expect to shift the ones they are keeping to sell themselves if the retailers have had to make such massive cuts? The one problem was a QC problem, the other was a miscalculation about the demand for a one-off locomotive that doesn't even have the appeal of being in preservation.
Honestly, if Hornby can sort out those two issues, maybe moving to a Rapdio-style order book system, then I think they could turn it around. Because, when they work like they are supposed to, they are great models. I love my Standard 2MT, in fact, I have another one in the post right now.
There's no reason they couldn't do order book style production as they currently like to announce everything years before it's ready. It would be much harder if they were doing it Bachmann style with quarterly announcements with products on shelves shortly after. I suppose part of the reason that might not work is because if you preorder then you pay silly prices so most of us are prepared to wait. Class 87 City of Birmingham was a good example for me. Didn't think it'd sell out, waited until it was in the TMC sale recently.
Rapido has had set backs with that poor GWR tank, My Accurascale Deltic went back, just gave up the ghost. I have only have 1 motor issue with an S15 from Hornby and are pretty happy with the suff I have bought.
I know quite a few people who will not pre-order. Call them old fashioned but they like to see the model in the flesh before buying.
@@andrewwarcup684 Same here, What's the point with this online shopping nonsense anyway i want to interact with human beings not be a slave to the computer i too like to see the model up close and personal.
@@andrewwarcup684 Did anybody pre-order the 2MT loco? That was years long in coming, yet the four- / six- wheeled coaches were produced quickly.
I grew up in the 1960s in Australia, when Triang and Scalextric were available in just about every Sports and Toy shop in most towns. They even published a list of official sales and service shops. Sadly the retail world has changed, there are only a handful of shops left from which you can buy Hornby products. Because I grew up with them, I still want to, but it is very difficult now. I don't know what the answer is, at least I am at the stage where I have most items I want.
It's almost like Hornby aren't sure where they belong in the market anymore.
Exactly. What do they want to be? What is their "purpose" in corporate nonsense speak?
@@LittleWicketRailway growing up - you got your Train set from Hornby and a few other wagons to go with it - maybe a few extra locos - that's it
You didn't go to them for top end stuff...
@@IronHorseRailways Eh Top End? Schools Class, MN,BOB, WC, Q1, S15, N15, Duchesses, LNER pacifics. All good stuff and top quality.
@gpnorman9453 half of that was thd old Tender drive tat. The MN and Q1 were the first top end locos. The WC and BoB were formerly tri-and locos which, with a detailing kit, could probably create a decent model. The Schools, Duchess, Princess etc were all old models re-tooled a couple of times
I have to agree with this. I sometimes feel like a lot more kids (with mum and dad's cash!!) would stay in the hobby a bit longer if there were products that were a natural next step after the Christmas 0-4-0 train set. I think it's too big a jump in cost from the cheap train sets to even Railroad products. They don't have a customer recruitment problem I don't think, it's a retention problem - and the upper end of the market is now very competitive as has been mentioned. They tried with play trains but that was too expensive for a casual toy, sadly.
The same dynamics were at play in the Australian HO scale scene over the past 30 or so years. Older brands that pioneered RTR Australian models like Powerline and Austrains didn't keep up with the customer trends for detail, accuracy, quality, range of prototypes, customer service and DCC. These brands still exist but are shadows of their former selves, outpaced by newer players that arrived in the 21st century.
Great video that makes Hornby a company that must be saved. The move to direct sales will need new warehousing. I find it strange that the current building is very dated and must cost a fortune to run. I hope that all Hornby products are now made in this country?
China
Hello, Thanks for a great video - I found it very interesting. And concerning Hornby future. Let's hope they can turn it around. Take care, Karl and Debbie
A good review of the state of Hornby, and they have to recognise their traditional market leader position is challenged in a number of sectors. As you suggest the newer competition is leaving them behind yet their prices indicate they deserve a premium, which is definitely not the case as many online reviews of the latest releases highlight. As a recently returning modeller, I have avoided buying anything from Hornby until the situation improves. It is a shame, but it suits me to be free from loyalty to their brand when there are so many other marques that impress and excite me!
Coincidentally Sam's Trains simultaneously released a video featuring some of the worst models he's reviewed and it's mostly Hornby. Based on that they don't deserve a premium.
I saw Sam’s lemons review just before yours and you both underline their current predicament for different perspectives
In Hornby's Favour is the Fact, they Got Rid of a Big headed Pratt called 'Simon'.
That might Help..!😂
I say Hornby should do 3 easy things. 1 Update the railroad flying Scotsman giving it proper lettering and numbering 2 Shrinking there engine roster cutting out some models and taking some out of production 3 Lower their prices on the railroad range of models. Yes while it should be a price decrease over the whole range it would make the most sense to declares the price on the railroad models so more people get into the hobby and can buy those models which makes it easier. Hopefully, we will get the USA tour flying Scotsman back as well i wish they stop doing limited editions of this you have the tooling it is a model most would love or just make an accessory kit for one of their new A3 tooling adding a clip-on cowcatcher Glue able bell and headlight with Second tender as a separate product it would be cheap to produce the components and would allow for people to get scots second tender without spending hundreds .
Not just that model but others as well (J83, 3F jinty, E2, etc) that need updating/retooling.
@@christopherbellamy639 I agree
@@christopherbellamy639 Updating the J83 would be a good move. I've seen old photos of the actual locomotive back when they were in BR service and notice the window hatches on the hornby model look nothing like the actual thing. I'd like to see them in NBR livery as they were the original operators of the loco, then modellers will have something to run their 6 wheel NBR coaches with.
With the advent of eBay and the sheer volume of cheap second hand models available on it from generations and generations of buyers it's difficult to see the point of buying brand new, so-so accurate, models from Hornby at high prices?
I love it.
Looking at HORNBY as THE company in model railroading. Thats very much UK.......
And one of the reasons given for this is the "globally popular" brands that Hornby owns, such as Rivarossi, Jouef, Arnold and Lima.
This is interesting, because it is pretended that these brands are the crown jewels of model railroading - and not companies that would probably no longer exist, had HORNBY not bought them.
One may ask what HORNBY actually intended to do with these "world-famous" brands? They would hardly have brought anything to their own customer base, because these brands are all continental European and have hardly anything to offer to UK modellers with their strange OO gauge on narrow-gauge tracks.
And for the rest of the modellers who model according to continental European or proper standard gauge models, these brands had too little to offer even before HORNBY bought them. At best, they outbid each other with poor quality
In the past buying up so called "world famous" brand names has caused the collapse of many large companies, will Hornby be any different??. For example, the whole debacle of BMC to BLMC to BL and the massive badge engineering project and poor management wiped that large company out quite easily..
While not a modeller myself, an interesting video
Very interesting overview of the company .I imagine the next few months are crucial .With the rise in energy prices , fuel .food etc. people are cutting back on disposable spending .I think the company may survive but for how much longer is a difficult question. Prices are getting ridiculous .I know only but second hand .
One thing I don't like when buying direct from Hornby, is getting stung on delivery charges. Over the last few years I've pre-ordered several items at a time and when doing the check-out I see the total delivery is £5.95 (last time i checked). However as the Items were all sent out one by one, I get charged for each. That mounts up to a lot of extra money out of my pocket.
Out of interest why is £ 5.95 being "stung" on a delivery charge ? Given in most major towns and cities you'd not be able to park for less than £ 2 / hour that's before you add your time and cost of petrol for driving in.
If only Hornby had invested in high end OO modern locos instead of TT. Their recent OO modern models eg class 91, MK4 and dvt are very basic, poorly detailed and not up to modern standards.
Hornby were at the top of their game 15/20yrs ago with their 60, 56 08 etc but since then the level of detail of their new models has got much worse whilst the competition has raced ahead.
They need to listen to their core customers and stop producing tat that no-one actually wants (steampunk, Beatles, coca-cola, etc).
Most of my spend is now with Accurascale. They're not cheap but they produce very detailed, quality models of locos I actually want!
Thought provoking video Rob. Yes Hornby are in a mess.
Another aspect of their woes that perhaps you didn't dwell on was their propensity to milk ancient tooling tat. There have been so many examples in recent years. The Beatles tat. The Coca-Cola tat. Steampunk tat. It is shocking that they continue to wheel out products from tooling that is older than many of their customers - look at some of their wagons!
Their high-end stuff tends to be quirky and unique (Hush-Hush, Rocket, Locomotion et al) but if they included a few more quality bread and butter items (such as the humble 16t mineral wagon and get producing them with different running numbers annually, they they would ensure a steady income stream year on year.
The TT gamble was brave. It's very hard to know how it is really doing. To me, it's like they have admitted defeat in OO Scale and were looking for some territory to stake a claim. I think they missed a trick with their bully-boy tactics against competitors who try to muscle in on 'Hornby's turf' (Titgate anybody, plus the 66, the Terrier, the Generic 4/6 wheel coaches... the list goes on). None of these debacles have done anything positive for their reputation.
I really would like to see them survive. The industry needs them, but not if they continue to be asleep at the wheel. Other more modern competitors such as Accurascale and Rapido seem to have figured out how to thrive in this market. Even Dapol has adapted and upped its game. Bachmann thrive because they make decent models that people want to buy. How many different versions of Flying Scotsman can you sell in any given year?
Hornby are not the Hornby founded by Frank Hornby, they are really descended from Tri-ang (Rovex) who acquired the failing Hornby (Meccano) company in 1964 and after subsequent takeover’s decided to drop the Triang name over the older, more established Hornby brand name. I totally agree re-launching a new TT range was a big mistake. Richard Lines who was in charge in the 50’s and 60’s is on record saying that TT range was in effect a bad idea because retailers didn’t want to stock a second range, it wasn’t a great seller and was nearly as expensive to produce as the 00 range. So why Hornby chose to repeat history and manufacture a brand new version of TT is mind boggling.
TT120 has huge potential. Space is an issue for modellers with modern living and lack of space for layouts that has made micro layouts in 00 popular because of this, with many not wanting fiddly N gauge. TT120 is the compromise and the chance to get new modellers who have little space for 00 and not want N gauge. But Hornby going it alone with few items is a risk even with a long term plan, they needed a collaboration really to share the load but also get more products and variety available.
Richard Lines is also on record for saying after seeing the rokal set they just had to make tt scale, as it was superb. Imagine if they'd concentrated on producing tt instead of their 00 range: those 3 years must've seemed like forever to get tt into production
Good analysis. Hornby OO has a very mixed bag of products, ranging from best in the industry to hopelessly outdated and ridiculously overpriced rubbish that tarnishes the brand. QC has got progressively worse and desperately needs attention. They also need to stop alienating both modellers and retailers with sharp business practices. Not sure about Airfix, Scalextric etc. but their management of the Corgi brand has in the main been absolutely dire.
One of the biggest complaints I have seen with Hornby starter sets is the low quality controller.I have seen some reviews with failures right out of the box.
I've never had one fail, but I'm aware that many people aren't fans of them.
at this point in time i have 2 locomotives pre-ordered with Dapol, 2 with accurascale, 3 with Rapido & only 1 with Hornby. That just shows there are far better options now than there was 10 years ago.
I'm surprised that the TT range is making a profit. I hope it survives.
TT scale was popular for a short while in the 1960's. I had a friend at school who had a lovely layout. However, the scale gradually faded from view in the early 1970's, as 'N' gauge was introduced, and disappeared completely. I remember seeing lots of TT stuff being sold in a jumble sale.
It's their most profitable range. Just that there's too many naysayers
@@brianartillery Different scale tho.
Present Hornby is the "correct" (internationally recognised) 1:120 scale on track 12mm gauge. Triang 1960s was 1:101.6 on 12mm gauge. The larger scale to cope with the larger motors available at the time. In the 1990s I started building an exhibition layout in "British" TT of my local station. I bought a job lot of Triang stock from a Toyfair, improved the detail and running , scratch built track and Locomotives, but a house move put that on hold. 25 years later still haven't returned to Railway modelling.
Was rather excited by the prospect of Hornby producing "The Perfect Scale" again but as it is 1:120 not going to invest!
I also used to model in 4mm and have many scratch built and kit built locos, as well as the proprietary stuff, but as pointed out by others I am not going to spend £150 + on a loco or £25 for a wagon. Not when there are better bargains and better value for money models available at Toyfairs!
As for the Beatles loco...to anyone under the age of 60, The Beatles are irrelevant. Anyone over the age of 60 is not going to be interested in such a tacky rip-off. I think Hornby are DOOMED, just look at the way they treat retailers and direct sales, their products and their prices and the competition. Who on earth had the bright idea of investing huge amounts of money into trying to start up a TT market? Quite apart from the concept requiring a new customer base, to a modeller it is not just the locos and track, but all the other products that go to make up a layout.
The idea of TT being a new market is misleading. TT already existed. The reason that Simon spouted out in the announcement video was in order to make it more accessible and attract new fans who don't have much space, but seemingly he didn't get the memo. His idea was sound. But then they manufactured complex and detailed models for collectors and with suitably large prices to boot. The release was done just before Xmas. I always thought, if they really believed in Simon's words then they would have created cheaper and fun trainsets and got them on the shelves for Xmas with a big fan fair... Nothing of this sort happened and they massively missed the opportunity that was right under their nose. personally think it was a bold and brave move, idea being for new modellers to the hobby to start there but I can tell you as a modeller new to it from late 30s I would never have paid their prices to start the hobby. OO second hand was appealing due to it's accessible pricing.
I don’t know if this is legal but the forming of “the Hornby volunteers” dedicated to saving the memory and brand of preserving Hornby may be the way to go. I mean if they can do this sort of thing for community radio, then why not for model railways?
I don't want Hornby to go under and surprisingly to me talking to Peco at a show last year neither do they or other manufacturers, because Hornby is the famous name that gets people into the hobby. Sadly Hornby seem to have an attitude of our name is so big we will survive, but the reality is they have sat around too long and are now left behind as fewer newcomers enter the hobby, and established modelers look elsewhere for models that cost less yet have more detail. I don't think there is any quality control these days, the number of models that get returned in my local shop is something you rarely saw at one time. I still think Hornby are best for detail on their steam locomotives but the rest of the range relies a lot on old mouldings like Lima at huge prices. I have hardly bought anything this year because there is nothing that appeals to my 1970's era layouts There is a lot that could be made but they churn out the same old things time after time in a new livery and new higher price.
Sadly for me the price of Hornby items doesn’t match the quality of Hornbys modern stuff.Yet someone gave me a old Hornby 060 built in the 1970s and that still runs well today.
Very interesting analysis, Rob, and a very nicely put-together video. The forecast doesn't look good, does it? ☹️
I must admit, I didn't think Olly Raeburn's appointment was a good sign following his brief at Paperchase, let's keep our fingers crossed this isn't history repeating.
This is a fantastic video. Really well prwsented and researched. It would be a huge shame to lose a brand such as hornby but they clearly dont know thair market well enough.
Buying into Warlord Games was a good move if they can use that to create a hobby/modeller/gamer experience. Games Workshop - very successful - have captured many modellers/gamers when young and provide space to learn their hobby in the shops. Hornby could do similar things with Trains, Scalextric and Warlord - extending that Wonderworks idea across the country. Watching the TV program about Hornby filled me with frustration about the dynamism of the company - which is exemplified by the clobbering their business is getting by the purchasers of their products.
I don't know much about Warlord Games specifically, but there does seem to be a growing market for table top gaming, so maybe this was a good move.
Games Workshop is a miniatures company; they achieve success through shifting plastic by the ton. Warlord are one of the bigger wargaming manufacturers but a tiny player in comparison to GW. Blood Red Skies Battle of Britain suggests they (Warlord + Hornby/Airfix) identified crossover that they could use to expand their market share, but that doesn't seem to have paid off judging by the sets being available at huge discounts. To the outsider there seems to be a scattergun approach to strategy, but some brands (such as Airfix) seem to have a more coherent and measured approach - it would be interesting to know how those brands are contributing to the overall health (or otherwise) of Hornby Hobbies' finances.
@@jamfjord I got the impression that Airfix might expand into non-military models. I think the new Head of Insights from Lego suggested that.
Does tabletop gaming still work with 3D printers the same price as a Warhammer army?
@@LittleWicketRailway Games Workshop do have a problem with copies of some of their figures, not sure what steps they take to protect their IP. GW have created a retail environment where buyers can learn modelling and gaming. Can Hornby do the same? Pete Waterman allowed young people to control trains at Chester last year -very interesting. Could Hornby allow purchasers of their trains to run them on a track in their shops?
You use to be able Hornby Train sets in Tesco, WH Smith, High Street toy Shops. All long gone in terms of outlets. In Medway there use to be 6 shops dedicated to models, as well as the toy shops that would sell Hornby. Currently there are none. Where are they suppose to sell stock?
The whole "buy it online" thing has ruined the experience for many modellers.
Hey, you know what'll definitely save them though? More 80s toolings at double the price they should be and more trash tier Beatles junk! That'll definitely turn around nearly a straight decade of losses!
It's not for me, but I'd bet that the Beatles stuff sells purely because it's Beatles branded. Although I suspect the market for it is shrinking.
@@LittleWicketRailway One of the packs from a year or two ago was a limited edition of 1 thousand, and nearly every online model retailer has plenty of them still in stock and at a discount, so forgive me if I'm a bit dismissive of Beatles model sales numbers.
As a lifelong fan of both the Beatles and model railways, none of it has any appeal to me except for the Yellow Submarine Eurostar which is of course out of production. That means even if I buy the one thing I want from this range Hornby won't get any money from me because I couldn't buy it during the brief window they were selling it.
@@blakesmith6303 I think that, instead, they should have done a Rolling Stones offer. With their recent offers, it is already "(I can't get no) Satisfaction" and "19th Nervous Breakdown"...
I'm more interested in the Warlord Games aspect than the model railway elements.
In the tabletop gaming world there is a huge split between the generations. Older folks who grew up with airfix tend to be focused on historical based games, whereas younger people are heavily invested in sci fi, fantasy and superheroes. This split extends to the price they're prepared to pay with the historical being much cheaper. I suspect that creating higher price acceptance for the Hornby brands is going to be a struggle. You mention this towards the end with competitor brands.
For Warlord this has seen a recent price hike so that a directly equivalent product is 50% more than most competitors.
I suspect that these are dangerous omens.😢
As a historicals gamer, I have bought a fair bit of Bolt Action miniatures and vehicles. It's a great range but is becoming increasingly expensive compared to other offerings. The biggest cost hit for me was when Warlord forced Canadian customers to only use the US site thereby adding an unfavourable exchange rate onto existing price increases. For most of the standard items, like say a Sherman, I can get the same model cheaper from a local manufacturer or one in the UK - shipping and customs included.
Based on their model railway performance Hornby's interest in Warlord does not bode well.
A good, insightful summary. As you say, direct sales equals more overheads, and if they are not shifting stock straight out to retailers but selling it themselves, their inventories of unsold stock are bound to be higher. It would be interesting to know what the trade discount is - based on previous experience of the book trade, I'd guess it might be as high as 70% of RRP.
I'd love to see the full numbers and analysis.
I love British trains and I love Hornby oo trains (diesel & steam locomotives and new coaches & wagons, only with NEM couplers). I also love the Hornby Skaledale oo. It's a wonderful company with so many nice models to choose.
Given the number of famous brands that they have in their portfolio, it would be a crying shame if the company ceased trading. Let's hope a solution can be found that doesn't decimate the product line up.
Cessation of trading would see other brands sold off, if potential buyers see the likelihood of decent returns. Otherwise, they become historical footnotes.
One point that kills Hornby sales are the recurring quality problems on their models : glue sploshed all over the models, flimsy motors, and so ones... they are close to the price of German manufacturers likes Trix and Roco, but without the German quality...
Honestly, if they can't manufacture proper OO modeller's quality models, they just have to ditch this market, period. They can concentrate on budget models they already have with their Railroad offer, keep the TT120 offer but putting more efforts on it (high demand for it as you said), especially on the quality department (they seems to do so), recapitalize by selling all the non-model railways brands they have, and the continental brands in their portfolio if not profitable (Rivarossi has nice Italian models, I bought some of them), eventually the molds of their railway offer to other manufacturers (Dapol would certainly be glad to buy the 9F, 7MT, Bob/West Country class and the GWR/SR stuff).
And, please, stop throwing money through the window with silly ideas like the steampunk or the Beatles stuff nobody wants to buy... There is two choices now : be radical or be bankrupt. that's just my ideas, maybe completely naff, but I hope it would be of some interest for you.
They have had items that have sold out, supply did not meet demand; yet they never appear to address this, no doubt deemed not worth their while, by some bean-counter. They also need to address quality, and customer support. Both these latter are areas where Hornby fail to deliver. Also they don't listen, they're not alone in this. Furthermore the hobby is generally pursued by the elderly, thus their customer base is literally dying out. Go to any model railway exhibition, and look at the demographic. Yes, grandad will have taken his very young grandchlidren along, but teenagers, you'll see nary one.
I saw quite a few younger people at both GETS and the NEC when I went so I dontbthink the hobby's dying out. In fact at last year's GETS it got so crowded that they had to close the doors both days.
Let's not also forget the recent TV exposure.
I might have continued the hobby had contemporary in-service electric trains I see daily in the South and South West been manufactured. 450s, (Bachmann ran some as well as 350s), 455s, 442s, 458s, 377s would be nice to see. I have no interest in steam trains anymore.
Same here in the North No every day trains we see either. Class 185, 333 have been around for years the 150, 158 units have been made but never highly detailed like the 156 and pacer we can get
I don't think they helped themselves with the legal hot water they got into with trying to release a Titfield Thunderbolt model when Rapido had the okay from Studio Canal.
I have to admit I haven't bought any new Hornby items in a while, partly because nothing has been of interest but mostly because of price. Last things I bought new were some Ex-LSWR SR coaches and paid nearly half the full retail.
It's also the RRP of some models with toolings are pushing at least 20+ years old, I got a Pug 0-4-0 when Hornby first acquired the toolings from Dapol in early 2000s and it cost me around £25 at the time. Granted there is the added DCC components but £90 for what is almost the same model now really doesn't feel worth it.
It may be a complete coincidence but Simon Kohler returned to Hornby and turned them around and they made a profit. Then he left Hornby and they go back into debt. Shows how good Simon was at his job:
@MichaelAustin-d6k Yeah. Under him they spent who knows how many £10,000s developing the Trains on Film range. A range they had to abandon because Kohler didn't check copyright law.
@@Poliss95 What were they thinking haha.
It was from some pissant old movie they probably could have got the rights for pennies, but they just thought the rights holder wouldn't notice?
Really interesting video, hopefully Hornby can bounce back.
Cheers DEANO
TT120 should remain as direct sales, but as you say, not being able to pull off next day delivery is a red flag.
Rob, this is very good coverage of a very sad tale.
It occurs to me that Hornby has a rather large missing dimension from its business. In many industries the strategy is to sell the product cheaper but to make back additional (and often recurring) money on spare parts or consumables. Manufacturing additional sets of model parts for each new model would probably not add a lot to the cost of a production run and could be used to create a saleable stock of spare parts. If it was done well the cumulative revenues from that would add up - especially if the parts were priced like automtive parts are to recoup the costs and make a profit.
Hornby seems to do very little of this - for example I tried getting something as seemingly simple as a replacement coach bogie for a MK2 BR coach (of which Hornby must have made and sold millions) but Hornby has none. I am no fan of the sell-at-cost make-money-on-spares-and-consumables business model that so many industries now use - but it does seem to work for them. I would have grumbled about paying £7-8 for the coach bogie (if it had been available) but I would have bought it.
Selling spare parts is an inventory management nightmare. Instead of selling X-number of models and having to keep each one in stock only until it's sold out, you end up having to stock a bazillion items, and keeep them indefinitely.
@@beeble2003 Yes, but all small items and eminently suitable for computer indexing. Sell a coach for maybe £40 or sell a replacement bogie (costing pennies to make if done at the time the model is in production) or chassis for £15-£20 - seems like someone would be able to make money from that if it was done right and of the original modesls sell in sufficient quantity. There are a lot of people making money from such a business model
Part of the problem for me with Hornby are the extortionate pricing, poor availability of spares and what seems to be endemic poor customer service. Equally, a vast majority of their main range diesels are being done better and cheaper bythier competitors
Agreed on the spares. I have a Q1 that needs a complete set of connecting rods, and that lays in its box unuseable since 2021...
I would read the balance sheet quite differently. The opportunities that Hornby Hobbies has been working hard to create are within the figures but all the armchair experts see are costs. There are number of other indicators 😉
TT:120 was without doubt the smartest move Hornby made within the last 30 years. The numbers are undeniable, although some still try. There are a lot more very interesting developments within the company, there is plenty of life in the old dog yet 😁
Care to elaborate?
@@LittleWicketRailway it’s all there if you know where to look and what you are looking at.
@@HighFell any particular figure, page, note or disclosure that you'd like to direct attention towards?
@@LittleWicketRailway think like an investor, a successful one.
@@HighFell why are you being cryptic? Just say what you've seen on the statement of financial position that supports your original comment.
It would be interesting to know how the other companies are managing financially. It may not be a bed of roses for them either.
I got fed up waiting years for models to arrive and they were not new ones with development bugs but reliveries. Hornby would rather rush out other models to spite other manufacturer's releases (Hattons coach; Dapol Terrier) or launch TT120 than fulfill the orders it had. Then, after telling everyone to pre-order to guarantee supply, another order with Rails of Chef Field was abruptly cancelled after Hornby stopped supplying them with no reason given.
One point not made in the video is that Hornby tried this direct marketing / cut out the model shops approach a few years ago and if IIRC it didn't do well then and they had to eat humble pie.
I gave up and now focus on O gauge. Rapido are making attractive, small steam locos which I've continued buying, but nothing from Hornby appeals. Small steaming locos might tempt me back, but otherwise after being treated as a second class citizen I'd happily see them go bust.
A travelling Wonderworks might be a fun project
A pop up during the school summer holidays could be good.
For me they need to address their quality which (based on my TT experience) is pretty dire. Of my 7 locos 6 have failed multiple times. They also need to bring their stock to market quicker and replenish popular stock quickly. I hope they survive but I have my doubts.
“Space saving” big locos and coaches on 2nd and 3rd radius only, madness
Hornby should bite the bullet and manufacture in HO scale already. OO scale is such a small market compared to HO, i think they would be surprised at how well they would do.
Isn't Mike Ashley involved now ?? Hopefully he can inject some quality control and pricing issues to all their products
Wish them all the very best
Excellent overview
My thoughts on this are 1) I believe that Hornby has priced themselves out of the market, 2) why not bring manufacturing back to Great Britain as the models are made in China which I believe are putting costs up, I personally cannot get anything from My local dealer as I believe that they have been down graded as they can't get items from Hornby.
Hornby would be able to appeal to me personally if they made a load of pre-grouping steam locos at a good quality for an affordable price. If necessary, add more liveries to their 4 and 6 wheel coach lineup. I have no idea if that kind of thing would sell well, but it would get me buying more Hornby stuff.
Totally agree pre grouping stuff is something Hornby ignore .There products are stale and boring ,another Flying scotsman anyone?
I can only see Hornby turning things around if they behave like the new kids on the block, they should slash their headcount, sell any asset that isn't revenue generating and cut their range by 60% to focus on what sells. So goodbye most of the steam loco range. Well done for really digging deep into this Rob, some of those figures are eyewatering and clearly unsustainable.
For me, the two key areas that Hornby are failing in:
1. Attracting new customers to the hobby with affordable and value products.
2. Developing products based on the current real world rather than relying on history.
Very interesting article, I think Hornby trains are far too expensive.
I suspect they are not shifting stock because of the price. When the prices are very high, people are going to be very choosey and only invest in rolling stock that they really like. I'm fairly well off and tried to get into the hobby last year, but the overall cost proved to be way too high and on the whole that cost did not reflect the quality of the items I received. If their margins are high on the models (no one knows for sure), then it is a no-brainer to reduce the price they are selling them at.
Let's hope they can turn things around and soon.
I really hope so too, but even a 10% increase in prices is only £5m and that doesn't come close to reversing the loss. If they can bring inventories down by £5m then that's another big chunk. Ultimately then need to sell more, at higher prices, whilst at the same time reducing costs.
Edit: I would be so interested to see their 5 year financial model.
Going public allowed them access to funds to improve their models but this came at the price that they were now at the mercy of shareholders and their demand for dividends and bonuses.