It was a blast fighting you! We all have our share of "iffy" wins. I know I've certainly had mine. I probably would have done the same, especially in a single-elimination bracket. Also, thanks for the signed frame. It is sitting proudly on my trophy shelf now. Looking forward to the next time we fight ;)
I'd suspect the hub spokes are what flexed, rather than the AR15 steel. If the rear of the bot gets launched, the blade is going to strongly resist those forces through gyroscopic effect, so something has to flex against the weapon axle.
Awesome video, and awesome bot! I'm not usually one to offer unsolicited advice, but I noticed that your weapon system has a similar setup and similar issues to mine on Phantom II. I've also been battling the issue of the weapon deflecting enough to hit the robot and the belt, and after playing with this design and setup for a couple years, here are some of my findings: -Needle roller bearings are just too sloppy for a blade this long. A pair of ball bearings, spaced out as far from each other as possible, would be much more rigid. I'm planning to make this change when/if I build Phantom III. -Nylon hubs also have too much give for a weapon this long. Even with the tall needle roller bearing pressed through the bar, the greatest forces resulting from out-of-plane moments occur at the top and bottom ends of the bearing/hub assembly, so there needs to be rigid support here. I originally used onyx for the weapon hub on Phantom II, and while I do still struggle with blade deflection, switching to aluminum hubs has helped a lot, because it prevents the bearing casing from flexing and the rollers from misaligning. -If you are married to using a needle roller bearing, I had the best results using an oversized dowel rod that was made of hardened high speed tool steel. It was only +0.001 to 0.003, but that managed to fill out enough of the bearing slop that paired with an aluminum hub, I was able to go an entire event without hitting my own belt. Unfortunately, this kind of dowel rod is very difficult to retain in an overhead spinner like Phantom II, so I had problems with it coming out of the frame. I solved *that* problem by switching to a big shoulder bolt, but it is not oversized so that change brought my weapon deflection problem back. If you can retain an oversized shaft in your bot, though it might allow you to mitigate this problem without abandoning your needle roller bearing setup. I hope this info is useful for your next version(s)!
Great advice. I noticed the wobble on the needle bearing as well. The nylon SHOULD be fine since the forces are really against the weapon, but I have the weight to change out to aluminum.
Great fight. It wasn't obvious in the video, but Red-Dye-5 took some pretty severe damage to the weapon in this fight. The weapon shaft got tweaked, and the weapon bearings were pretty crunchy.
The lower weight classes that you compete in are possibly my favorite because the bots just seem a lot more durable and less prone to just “randomly” stopping. I’m assuming this has to do with how heavier weight bots have super overvolted motors and the like.
Very impressive first outing, amazing to see how well it ran. For cable management on my beetle I've designed the cable runs into the electronics tray. Means you have to trim the cables, but keeps it neat and stres free and stops anything moving around.
You could print some nice wheels our of low durometer TPU. You cou use this in combination with the IceSL slicer, which can slice a file into a printable anistropic cellular foam pattern. The axis of compression can be mathimaticaly defined, as well as the density and material depending if it is the tire or hub portion.
one problem with fixing your tires onto your hubs or using rigid wheels is when you go flying in a hit, is you end up backdriving your gearboxes and stripping gears.
They don't really address the issue. They just have a different method of clamping on the wheel, which will deform over time, causing them to loosen. I just ended up gluing the wheels in place.
looking at where the bar bent I think it more due to lack of material than the material type that it bent, in the UK where nearly all our weapons Hardox of a similar thickness I haven't seen one bend like that (yes our BW are like 200g heavier but our weapons arent that much more powerful) have a look at Daedelus. a very similar bot but with a smaller hub motor design bar (255 rather than 330 ish)_ but hits as hard and doesn't have the weapon bending issues th-cam.com/video/7Arg24xF18s/w-d-xo.html (it is also on Bugglebots S2 so fun times ahead)
Great vid Rob, I had a similar experience last weekend with robots just not performing as you expect once they get in the arena with another robot, robot magic ey
Perhaps a wider wheel base may tamper some of the steering control issues? Also, my beetle KRAWL performed horrible at it's first match. I learned, made several modifications, and took 1st place at its second event. Don't give up yet, Psychotic Break needs a simple tuneup. The bot has some serious potential!
You could machine the hubs to look like a asterisk sign and cut some of the rubber in the wheels to match the hub. That would certainly keep it in place, it's how old RC car toys had their wheels, the really, really fast ones.
For me i solved the fingertech hub slickness issue by drilling and taping the hubs and putting in some set screws, 2 per wheel got it done for me, and my wheels have never slipped since. The carpet tape idea is also something i had used, i learned that back when doing woodworking on a lathe. Could you add a plate under the belt to limit how much the blade might get to it, or, maybe make a shorter but thicker blade that would allow you to use a thicker belt. Those skinny belts seem to be what breaks in every insect fight i have ever seen
I have always wanted Tombstone to install a disc brake on the blade hub, so he can stop the blade faster, and get the energy to move the robot itself, useful for when getting stuck on parts on the arena floor or when in the air before hitting the floor and making even more damage to itself, maybe you can try that instead.
With a kindof squirrely drive, have you experimented with gyros at all? (there are off the shelf ones used for RC drifting) I think they could be used pretty well to get nice precise movement.
i would say to buy your belts from CBT (where i get my belts from, never broke any, but i don't know if they sell their quarter or eight inch belts), but the belt are gates powergrip timing belt, so you can order them on some other website maybe. i do know they have 1/4 and 1/8
Have you thought about changing the design of the ballade? Like is that nub at the end gripping to much and that’s causing a problem? Like maybe turn it to an angled rectangle?
💥💥🌟QUESTION??🌟💥💥what happen to the original Battle Bots ring bots? There used to be two ring ref bots that sat in corners and activated at the near end of the battle and would attack you if you entered his zone then drop you in a hole. I think one was called Medusa don't remember the others name. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? If yes then do you know what happen to them?
Robert I think you might be selling your design short. It is beautiful, functional. Easy to maintain. Adjustable. Drive wheels that are better and a different weapon will make that thing terrifying.
I'm still just a scrub padwan builder and have no experience with belt driven weaponry... Would there be any disadvantage to putting the belt in a protected channel besides weight and the less flex the weapon would need to do in order to hit it?
I'm curious why they slip like that. Is that just the down-side of having them modularly replace-able? Maybe the Tombstone-like shape puts too much stress on the wheels compared to more boxy bots?
Why use a belt? Why not use chain? I’m using that for the bot I’m making and I think it should be fine. Also, is it ok make my frame all out of plastic then cover it with sheet metal or like 1/8 thick aluminum?
@@RobertCowanDIY oh I know, I would have done the same thing lol. Had your weapon been working still I'm sure you would've went back for more, but with it disabled, that's just a golden opportunity.
Always love the fight recaps, and I cant wait to see Phycotic Break fight again. Question though, I know you talked about fixing the hubs on the wheels, but have you considered molding and casting your own wheels (this way you could design your own tread and control durometer for your wheels to help with traction)?
I really hope so but I don’t think so, only because they had a bad loss to chronos, if they have one last big win though it is possibly. Maybe a last chance rumble.
That arena is too small even for those small robots. Hate that they make you fight in those conditions, there's no space to maneuver and every collision means bouncing into the walls.
@@Rymdkakor The maker of Wumbo is not affiliated with HUGE. Sometimes the smaller bots inspire the larger ones, and sometimes the larger bots inspire the smaller versions.
Believe it or not, the weapon flexes much easier than the frame. Once the frame is attached to the standoffs and shaft, it's extremely rigid. A single frame piece is pretty hard to bend by hand, but the weapon blade actually has a bit of flex to it. I suspect the weapon.
@@RobertCowanDIY I wonder if the small cutouts on the weapon are causing some of that. Much like how that was the weak point for the encounter with the wall.
It was a blast fighting you! We all have our share of "iffy" wins. I know I've certainly had mine. I probably would have done the same, especially in a single-elimination bracket. Also, thanks for the signed frame. It is sitting proudly on my trophy shelf now. Looking forward to the next time we fight ;)
Can you make a build report of that robot (if you are able)?
Sorry about the floor
@@Lumakid100 I'm working on a video as we speak. It'll pop up on my channel in a day or 2.
Thanks.
@@Lumakid100 video is up on my channel now. Check it out :)
When a beetle-weight bot loses its weapon balance, vibrates wildly, and starts dancing across the floor, is it doing the jitterbug?
Your belt issues seem... familiar. Welcome to the “stop hitting yourself” club!
I have ideas...
I want to see you two fight. Maybe when I get a Vector kit it’ll be all three of us.
The floor claims yet another victim.
We call that pulling a cobalt. Winning the fight up until the floor says no.
Honestly! I totally get Roberts decision but after that show of great driving and a perfect hit from kelpie losing like that is kinda tragic
I'd suspect the hub spokes are what flexed, rather than the AR15 steel. If the rear of the bot gets launched, the blade is going to strongly resist those forces through gyroscopic effect, so something has to flex against the weapon axle.
Once you get Psychotic Break tuned, it will be a killer.
I sure hope so!
Awesome video, and awesome bot! I'm not usually one to offer unsolicited advice, but I noticed that your weapon system has a similar setup and similar issues to mine on Phantom II. I've also been battling the issue of the weapon deflecting enough to hit the robot and the belt, and after playing with this design and setup for a couple years, here are some of my findings:
-Needle roller bearings are just too sloppy for a blade this long. A pair of ball bearings, spaced out as far from each other as possible, would be much more rigid. I'm planning to make this change when/if I build Phantom III.
-Nylon hubs also have too much give for a weapon this long. Even with the tall needle roller bearing pressed through the bar, the greatest forces resulting from out-of-plane moments occur at the top and bottom ends of the bearing/hub assembly, so there needs to be rigid support here. I originally used onyx for the weapon hub on Phantom II, and while I do still struggle with blade deflection, switching to aluminum hubs has helped a lot, because it prevents the bearing casing from flexing and the rollers from misaligning.
-If you are married to using a needle roller bearing, I had the best results using an oversized dowel rod that was made of hardened high speed tool steel. It was only +0.001 to 0.003, but that managed to fill out enough of the bearing slop that paired with an aluminum hub, I was able to go an entire event without hitting my own belt. Unfortunately, this kind of dowel rod is very difficult to retain in an overhead spinner like Phantom II, so I had problems with it coming out of the frame. I solved *that* problem by switching to a big shoulder bolt, but it is not oversized so that change brought my weapon deflection problem back. If you can retain an oversized shaft in your bot, though it might allow you to mitigate this problem without abandoning your needle roller bearing setup.
I hope this info is useful for your next version(s)!
Great advice. I noticed the wobble on the needle bearing as well. The nylon SHOULD be fine since the forces are really against the weapon, but I have the weight to change out to aluminum.
Great fight. It wasn't obvious in the video, but Red-Dye-5 took some pretty severe damage to the weapon in this fight. The weapon shaft got tweaked, and the weapon bearings were pretty crunchy.
The lower weight classes that you compete in are possibly my favorite because the bots just seem a lot more durable and less prone to just “randomly” stopping. I’m assuming this has to do with how heavier weight bots have super overvolted motors and the like.
I wonder if adding a system that reacts much like an RC helicopter would to counteract the rotation would make a difference to how it drives.
So gyro feedback control? Might do
Very impressive first outing, amazing to see how well it ran. For cable management on my beetle I've designed the cable runs into the electronics tray. Means you have to trim the cables, but keeps it neat and stres free and stops anything moving around.
Odd the bending weapon thing that happened has happened to me with my heavy weight in the UK when it got hit by a really strong vertical spinner
So fun to see this after watching the build progress.
Can you do a chain or gearbox vs the belt? Assuming you can't because of a weight limit or something
You could print some nice wheels our of low durometer TPU. You cou use this in combination with the IceSL slicer, which can slice a file into a printable anistropic cellular foam pattern. The axis of compression can be mathimaticaly defined, as well as the density and material depending if it is the tire or hub portion.
I wonder if the reason why the weapon made contact with the frame was because of the weapon catching the belt, pulling it into the frame.
one problem with fixing your tires onto your hubs or using rigid wheels is when you go flying in a hit, is you end up backdriving your gearboxes and stripping gears.
Fingertech has new hubs for the wheels, hopefully they help with the wheel slippage.
They don't really address the issue. They just have a different method of clamping on the wheel, which will deform over time, causing them to loosen. I just ended up gluing the wheels in place.
Which motor is used for weaponary ??
looking at where the bar bent I think it more due to lack of material than the material type that it bent, in the UK where nearly all our weapons Hardox of a similar thickness I haven't seen one bend like that (yes our BW are like 200g heavier but our weapons arent that much more powerful) have a look at Daedelus. a very similar bot but with a smaller hub motor design bar (255 rather than 330 ish)_ but hits as hard and doesn't have the weapon bending issues th-cam.com/video/7Arg24xF18s/w-d-xo.html (it is also on Bugglebots S2 so fun times ahead)
Great vid Rob, I had a similar experience last weekend with robots just not performing as you expect once they get in the arena with another robot, robot magic ey
Perhaps a wider wheel base may tamper some of the steering control issues? Also, my beetle KRAWL performed horrible at it's first match. I learned, made several modifications, and took 1st place at its second event. Don't give up yet, Psychotic Break needs a simple tuneup. The bot has some serious potential!
Just like how Tombstone's wheelsa are spaced so further apart they seem "exposed"? Also comes with the bonus of being baits for Tombswipe maneuvers!
You could machine the hubs to look like a asterisk sign and cut some of the rubber in the wheels to match the hub. That would certainly keep it in place, it's how old RC car toys had their wheels, the really, really fast ones.
For me i solved the fingertech hub slickness issue by drilling and taping the hubs and putting in some set screws, 2 per wheel got it done for me, and my wheels have never slipped since. The carpet tape idea is also something i had used, i learned that back when doing woodworking on a lathe.
Could you add a plate under the belt to limit how much the blade might get to it, or, maybe make a shorter but thicker blade that would allow you to use a thicker belt. Those skinny belts seem to be what breaks in every insect fight i have ever seen
Kelpie is the cutest lil pneumatic flipper ive ever seen
just got here .... this is awesome
I have always wanted Tombstone to install a disc brake on the blade hub, so he can stop the blade faster, and get the energy to move the robot itself, useful for when getting stuck on parts on the arena floor or when in the air before hitting the floor and making even more damage to itself, maybe you can try that instead.
With a kindof squirrely drive, have you experimented with gyros at all? (there are off the shelf ones used for RC drifting) I think they could be used pretty well to get nice precise movement.
Maybe if the bot is heavier it would help with stability and driving
Beautiful looking bot and the structure seems solid, shame about the weak drive and belt.
Please can you tell me which motor is used for weaoponary ??
i would say to buy your belts from CBT (where i get my belts from, never broke any, but i don't know if they sell their quarter or eight inch belts), but the belt are gates powergrip timing belt, so you can order them on some other website maybe. i do know they have 1/4 and 1/8
wow just turned very fast right away ...... great
Have you thought about changing the design of the ballade? Like is that nub at the end gripping to much and that’s causing a problem? Like maybe turn it to an angled rectangle?
Could you explain a little about the cables connecting your two radios together? Is it similar to a trainer system without any channel overlap?
💥💥🌟QUESTION??🌟💥💥what happen to the original Battle Bots ring bots? There used to be two ring ref bots that sat in corners and activated at the near end of the battle and would attack you if you entered his zone then drop you in a hole. I think one was called Medusa don't remember the others name. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? If yes then do you know what happen to them?
I think you're thinking of Robot Wars, the UK version of Battlebots. They had the cheesy 'house bots'.
Robert I think you might be selling your design short. It is beautiful, functional. Easy to maintain. Adjustable. Drive wheels that are better and a different weapon will make that thing terrifying.
"your design" is giving him a bit too much credit.
Please fight debacle! I want to see the battle of the mini tombstones!
Add Silent Spring and Margin of Safety for more chaos!
I'm still just a scrub padwan builder and have no experience with belt driven weaponry... Would there be any disadvantage to putting the belt in a protected channel besides weight and the less flex the weapon would need to do in order to hit it?
Nice first run!
Can you not glue the wheels to the hubs? Ya it makes it hard to change damaged wheels but it should stop the slipping.
I'm curious why they slip like that. Is that just the down-side of having them modularly replace-able? Maybe the Tombstone-like shape puts too much stress on the wheels compared to more boxy bots?
Why use a belt? Why not use chain? I’m using that for the bot I’m making and I think it should be fine. Also, is it ok make my frame all out of plastic then cover it with sheet metal or like 1/8 thick aluminum?
Great video!!!
12:12 you're so savage for letting him stay stuck there and taking the win 😂🤣😂
It was either that or go home. I wanted to keep playing ;-)
@@RobertCowanDIY oh I know, I would have done the same thing lol. Had your weapon been working still I'm sure you would've went back for more, but with it disabled, that's just a golden opportunity.
Always love the fight recaps, and I cant wait to see Phycotic Break fight again. Question though, I know you talked about fixing the hubs on the wheels, but have you considered molding and casting your own wheels (this way you could design your own tread and control durometer for your wheels to help with traction)?
hi Robert do u think copperhead can make top 16
filming was already over at that time so Robert already knows, but I hope it makes the top 16
I really hope so but I don’t think so, only because they had a bad loss to chronos, if they have one last big win though it is possibly. Maybe a last chance rumble.
I'm hoping they join the last chance rumble
Do you live in the Denver area? I live just east of Longmont.
I'm in north Erie actually!
Use an AR500 disc with hardened protruding teeth.
Nice Job, always love to see you iterate designs. Whats Psychotic Break's next comp?
Tombstone Jr. lol love it
What if you tried a one sided blade and just have a circular off weight on the other side I feel like it would help catch other bots way better
Red Dye #5 is really a rival to you, Robert.
Nice Debaclone.
Wow nice Chassis....😀
That arena is too small even for those small robots. Hate that they make you fight in those conditions, there's no space to maneuver and every collision means bouncing into the walls.
Are the bots on battlebots homages to these bots or are these bots homages to battlebots bots?
This is like Huge vs Tombstone in miniature :P
Or is Wumbo and Huge from the same team?
@@Rymdkakor The maker of Wumbo is not affiliated with HUGE. Sometimes the smaller bots inspire the larger ones, and sometimes the larger bots inspire the smaller versions.
@@RobertCowanDIY HUGE, and Railgun Max are both actually scaled up versions.
@@chdreturns They are scaled up versions of smaller bots for sure, but Wumbo is not at all associated with HUGE.
the arena giveth and the arena taketh away
Gyroscopic precession is what you’re battling
RIP the belt.
I think it's something other than the weapon that's causing most of the flex.
Believe it or not, the weapon flexes much easier than the frame. Once the frame is attached to the standoffs and shaft, it's extremely rigid. A single frame piece is pretty hard to bend by hand, but the weapon blade actually has a bit of flex to it. I suspect the weapon.
@@RobertCowanDIY I wonder if the small cutouts on the weapon are causing some of that. Much like how that was the weak point for the encounter with the wall.
I love your bots
win because of a floor seam...
Make a flipper like 10:48
First view!
First
Nope
those are the worst "robot" fights ever, LAME!!!
Let me know the next competition you're attending with your robot. I'll arrange it with the event organizer that we can fight.