Concealed Carry | Red Dot vs Iron Sights
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
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Intro Song: "Issa Trap" by Mikey Geiger
I'd say its more common than most people think to not even use the sights at all. If someone is 4 feet from you..... just point it
Yeah at that distance things are happening too fast to see sights.
Point shooting is a real thing.
The military used to train at close range to just shoot from the hip like a cowboy in a dual.
yeah but you can also think about shooting like Elisjsha Dicken stopped, he was shooting at like 40 yards, and im pretty sure you could do better with red dot at that distance
I point shoot when secretly training for what I don’t want to happen.
Something I’d say about Sarah’s “run away a bit” strategy: She’s the only one of the three who looked like she actually *identified* her target before shooting it. Both of the guys just went in on the assumption that this is a drill to shoot something as fast as possible. Sarah’s approach is designed to use her extra second to decide whether she actually needs to shoot. I’d give her credit for being the least likely to mistakenly shoot someone who was not the threat they were initially thought to be. For the talk of being “target focused”, she’s the one who actually looked at the target first.
Red dot for home defense, irons for conceal carry. As a wise man one said. “If you’re shooting someone at a distance that actually benefits from a red dot you better have a good lawyer.”
A home defense situation is more closer than a self defense situation out on the streets so a red dot for home defense is not necessary.
@@wavyboysean9433 Most gunfight distances, on the street for the average concealed carry person, is 0 to 5 yards, which is conversational distance, for robberies, muggings, and carjackings. Very close. Red dots on pistols at that distance, don't give you enough time to level your pistol to eye level. I think for competition, they work extremely well, with training.
What if u want or can only afford one gun
@@johnwick1178 A gun you can conceal carry can also be used for home defense obviously, but a bulky home defense gun with light and laser, red dot, etc can’t be comfortably concealed carried.
How about a church? Or store, or restaurant. You never know.
Well done. As a retired LEO, I was trained in the use of iron sights and still see advantages on learning to use them in case the red dot fails. The advantage of using the red dot or iron sights during training and practice creates muscle memory for the "event" which research has shown almost always happens fast and close and you are unlikely to FOCUS on the sights of either kind. That muscle memory will help you line up your shot under stress.
Something worth mentioning for those of us with aging eyes, it becomes more difficult to focus on the front sight of iron sights. When you extend your weapon in a firing position, the front sight is now at an intermediate distance meaning, for tri-focals or progressive lenses, you are tilting your head back to get clarity for the middle distance which is something you won't do in a self defense encounter. Other advantages already noted, you can easily see an illuminated red dot with the distance portion of your glasses and place it on the target that you CAN focus on during practice and, possibly during an encounter. Most of us probably don't practice drawing from a concealed position enough as it is and that might help avoid the snag or at least let you experience what that feels like so you can adjust as needed. Just one person's opinion.
Glad to have Clint back. It is good to have someone who can talk about the situation.
Personally... I'd use irons. No matter the firearm, you should be comfortable enough to use irons and be proficient. If you are, you can upgrade to any sight you want. For CCW, it helps mitigate being able to be noticed by someone since its a lower profile. As stated in the video, also less likely to snag (also depends on the irons you use).
The irony that with all the advancements in compact and micro guns with the sole purpose of making them lighter and easier to conceal the end user community's response was to add as many accessories increasing weight, snag/ failure points, and size.
I totally agree with snag but how much weight can be attributed to this? Nothing. I don’t get that part.
I used to be a big fan of running ONLY irons on pistols. With the advancements in the last 10 years I have a red dot on anything I carry now. Exception being pocket pistols. Took me awhile but damn I’m glad I made the switch.
Do another live stream Clint!
But what is the advantage of me having a red dot when my attacker is less than 7 yds away? One would assume its just point and shoot at that point.
"You should not be, you have iron sights. You'll be fine!" Hilarious, then him lauguing in the background 😂😅😂😅
TIP: put painter's tape over red dot and make a sharpie dot. Then train with both eyes open putting the sharpie dot over the target. Teaches muscle memory and two-eye shooting as well as picking up your red dot easier next time. Great for personal defense.
It's going to come down to personal choice.🤷♂ But what ever you choose, train with it.👍
Even though the vast majority of encounters occur in close quarters where you aren’t using any sights, I opted to buy a red dot for my CCW. The reason was the mass shootings that have happened at places like the mall in Indianapolis and the outlet center north of Dallas. If you have a gun in a public crowd like that, you may need to take out the shooter from a long distance (which is exactly what the guy did in Indianapolis-he took out the shooter not from 40 feet away, but from 40 YARDS! Amazing). I’d rather be over-equipped than under!
I'm a retired officer and I was involved in a deadly force situation and you really don't use any sights in the moment . It happens so quickly you just point and shoot. If you have time and distance I can see potentially a red dot could help.
Carrying concealed is much different than open carrying like LEO. I get her argument. There is much less risk of a red dot to be snagged on anything while open carrying
Law Enforcement draws typically from an easy holster outside the clothing. Spoken from experience. Drawing from concealed is by definition, harder. Another thought is maybe control the suspect by grabbing his left shoulder and hold it as you take one step back and shoot.
I like this drill. Both the quick reaction and the deliberate sight acquisition. Never thought to train like that but a welcome idea for real world situations. Personally I look for the iron sights over the red dot on sidearms. Especially when you have a bright green one like Clint’s.
It seems the closer you are, the less your sighting system matters. While close in like this is the most common scenario, we also need to be prepared for farther out. I'd like to see this drill done at varying distances to see what changes. Like 5, 10 and 20 yards, or more - try to drill like the guy in the mall, like 40 or 50 yards.
On average happens in 3s. 3yrds, 3sec, 3shots fired.
Target focused, in and parallel to line of sight, for civilian ccw carrier. LEO is an entirely different beast.
I went back to iron sight because i work in retail, the window gets so dusty after a week. I got tired of keep having to clean it so i went back to iron and i love it.
I don’t have a red dot. But, read they can fog up going from cold to hot environment.
You all are such a good team, really makes your content enjoyable to watch.
Alec and Katie were better co host.
That is simply rude. These 3 were good@@mattgnewikow9072
At distances that close, you are point-shooting and aren't really using your sights, red dot or not. The main benefit I've found from adding a red dot is training to maintain target-focus at more extended ranges and superimposing the dot, rather than staring at the front sight post. It takes a while to learn to resist the urge to hunt for the dot.
Tritium night sights. The ones on the sig p365 are fine. Aftermarket ones with orange front sight post are nice too.
I think the point of le vs civilian scenarios is the fact that in le your more likely to have your gun drawn focused on the target before shooting while in civilian defensive shootings your likely to just draw and shoot quickly. Thats why comparing the two is prob not the best comparison imho. Red dots are great for target identification and certainly more accurate on precise shots but I prefer irons on a carry gun. Maybe it’s just years of shooting iron sights but I’m just a touch faster finding irons than I am finding a dot, I’ve tried training through it with tons of dry fire and range time but I’m gonna keep the dots on my range guns and irons on my ccw.
Agree! 👍👍
For now I do solely irons on a carry gun. That may change one day with experience but I don’t find it needed on a carry gun right now. Also good reference to that Colion video. That’s a good experience people should watch.
Clint has returned!
finally
nobody cares when sara is back
@@nunyabinness3574 I think Sara is cool and brings a good balance to Clint and Kaya.
@@nunyabinness3574 yeah but Clint, Matt and Alek are better than Sara and Kaya
To Sarah's point, the draw stroke for LE officers is often times completely different from that of a civilian concealed carrying in the appendix and/or 3-5 o'clock position. In contrast, most, if not all LE have an owb safariland type holster, sometimes in a drop leg configuration, which is far easier to draw and clear garment. Just food for thought.
The argument was for shot placement initially, not necessarily drawing the weapon
@@doodadexactly
How about laser sight comparing to red dot and iron sights.
I would go with iron sights for edc because most self defense cases happen within 3-10 yards so if you can’t affectively use irons at 3-10 it’s no point in uses a gun… and your gonna be shooting quick so it will be hard to get the red dot back on target
At the end, it’s still depends on personal preference
RDS vs Irons.
Both require lots of practice & presentations to get proficient with them. RDS is better at target focus in intermediate and longer distances, up close can be neglible compared to irons.
Individual's eyes can really be a major factor. Aging eyes, astigmatisms and other eye issues are tremendous factors in what could be best.
An alternative or consideration could be XS Big Dot sights for close/intermediate targets for fast sight acquisition. They are a proven sighting system that are iron sights with the large Big Dot front sight being like and "analog" RDS.
Either way is still individual choice, and time training with both part of determining factor.
Just some food for thought.
A few things that you have to remember about cops using a red dot
1. It's in a holster that can't be snagged
2. Cops typically draw their weapin primitivly so the red dot is already more aligned to their eye and ready to go (no searching for the dot in the window)
3. The second most common position a cop would be in using a red dot is behind some sort of cover pointing the dot in the direction of the threat which again they already have the dot in sight in the window and in that case it would be faster
Took a break when Kaydie left, glad to see you guys have re-added someone who can provide the female point of view for us ladies.
Train to shoot from the hip for up close encounters, red dot or irons you might never get a chance to use either site.
I have glasses and for some reason I find it a lot easier to get on target much faster with iron sights. Getting my green dot into the tiny field-of-view takes more time than lining up the iron sights. Maybe I just need to practice more with the green dot.
I'm the opposite. I wear glasses and can pick up the dot faster than irons
Yes red dots need presentation practice as well. How much time did you put into learning your iron sights?
I was buying a new TV a few months back and a fellow from Utah was making small talk. Told him I was from a town right beside Charlotte, NC to which he replied "Oh you're near where Classic Firearms are located!". It's funny how that's how I discovered you guys lol
I would say it's a preference thing, I would tend to think in fight situation most probably wouldn't even know if they use the sights or not.
The most important factor is the distance to the target. I agree I with the young lady. She is speaking from a perspective of how a woman would be assaulted. In close quarter combat how effective is a red dot?
Lovin’ the tri-party presentation - great job folks.
I love the passive aggressive tension between Sarah and Kaya
Another great video Clint. Just not the same without you on these videos. I'm gonna say it everything I see you on a video now.....soooooo glad your back.
One thing training like this way louder! Even with ear pro was blown away how much so.
Both... my Canik SC and Canik MC have a red dot but the sights co-witness. That way, if the red dot dies, I still have the iron sights. Of my Sig has a laser but this also matches up with the iron sights. Big fan of having a backup plan.
Great drill, Classic Firearm team, what's your thoughts on dropping straight back? It would seem moving to the left or right would make you a harder target than dropping straight back.
Biggest advantage is without a doubt SITUATIONAL AWARENESS… then absolute familiarity with your weapon… then practice point shooting.
i find it easier lining up the irons, than looking for the red...for rifles or pcc, i can find the red dot instantly
I agree.
If you line up your irons the dot is literally there.
Ensure you have backup irons with any red or green dot and train with both. Great video.
I always thought red dots belong on shortys but I've got an SS mr920 with a Trijicon Gen 2 ran co witness , I quickly learned to quit focusing on the dot and run the damn thing
Irons for me, so much faster for semi point shooting for me. Long range stuff it's an advantage but not enough for me. Simplicity is always most reliable!
I do want to say that Sara’s third shot that she hit low looks like it would have been a liver shot so still pretty fatal
It’s a threat assessment. You need to evaluate your threat situation and pick the tool that best fits your personal needs, abilities, situation.
Me personally, I have a variety of guns and carry whatever fits my perceived needs.
I ran a course a few weeks ago using a red-dot and I shoot more accurate and more quickly with iron sights. Granted, some of that is reps put in, but for me when I’m under the clock I see irons very easily while I would lose the dot.
I used to be very against RDS until I started using them. So much easier to use a both eyes open similar to a RDS on a rifle. It just requires a lot more training for presentation but once you’re on the dot you’re good.
For CCW ill stick to iron sights. For home defense red dot
I’m a firearms instructor and key is to train with whatever you have , I recommend practicing with both because you might need to use someone’s gun as well and I’m sorry but I’m not pulling trigger until I see my dot in the window or my front sight on target because I’m not about to take an innocent life in accident.
these three are awesome to watch keep it up.
The problem with his argument with law enforcement is they aren't conceal carrying the gun. That shit is way out in the open with low likelihood of snagging on a shirt as opposed to having to lift your shirt up to draw your gun. Red dot will increase accuracy but you increase risk of not fully drawing your gun. I'm on the fence about getting a dot and that guy ain't helping by cutting her off and trying to explain a situation which don't apply
I love the drills, the banter and the overall content of this channel. I also love that Beetlejuice tattoo Sarah is sporting.
I do not advocate for having a red dot on a IWB CCW pistol. It adds printing, snag point, weight, and you will never use it in 99% of self defense shooting situation. For a duty pistol OWB, it is a must.
That’s why I run the XS DXT2 big dot sights. Not looking for pin point accuracy but a really quick reference in a tight situation.
I conceal carry a glock 17 with red dot...just don't like compact guns a whole lot. I keep saying one day I'll get one...but I keep buying full frame pistols...
Thats my same mindset. Compacts are okay but anything smaller repulses me like vomit. Some compacts are as big as smaller full sizes, so as long as I am cognizant of that, its all good.
More power to you if you can conceal a G17👍
My red dot sometimes gets caught on my shirt when I draw with one hand from appendix. I found rolling the gun flat (level with the ground) would clear it pretty quickly. It happened often enough I practice it. Changes my draw stroke, but only adds a little bit of time to the draw to shot time. I started working on one handed draw because I often have a dog on the end of a leash and figured it was highly likely if I had to use the gun while walking the dogs I would not have the use of both hands. Don't have that issue when I carry at 4 or 430 for some reason. In addition, shooting at that distance you may *think* you are seeing a dot or a sight, but you are point shooting, IMO. Your first shots are happening before the gun is even up to eye level...again, IMO.
At that distance they shouldn't be.
So i have another use case for the red dot. I live in NJ which has some crazy qualification standards for CCP. 1 you need to qual with the gun you will be carrying, 2 you need to score even at 25yrds. So even if you dont need the red dot in a real defensive situation it certainly will help hit a target while being timed 25 yards away with a small micro compact.
Always great videos. Love the interaction between you guys. What timer are you guys are using? One thing we have added to our training is the use of snap caps in our mags to practice dealing with possible malfunctions. For this, we load one another's magazines and will slip 1-3 snap caps in so when we encounter one of those you don't know when or where. If I am practicing on my own I will count out a magazines worth of ammo into a box or tray then drop in a snap cap and load blind or looking away. You can feel the difference when you encounter the snap cap after awhile but if you don't count rounds as you load you don't know where it is.
Finally Clint! Stop playing with us.
I like red dots but backup iron sights are a must.
I point shoot when secretly training for what I don’t want to happen. I use the Pact shot timer.
I think it is VERY important that anyone who carries a handgun should learn how to "point shoot" up to 30ft
The 3 of them combined didnt go through a 50 round box. Part 2 should include the dicken drill please and thanks.
I was doing some drills yesterday with my full size gun with red dot and when I went back to my shield plus with irons while my other gun cooled off, I was so much faster and more accurate with my shield plus.
It’s whatever you prefer I prefer a good pair or iorn sights like ameriglo HDs I pick them up better than the red dots when I’m training I got the glock19m came with HDs and ambi extended slide release and I threw my TLR1 HL light on there. Just also got my battle belt set up for training but with all that said I prefer red dots and back up sights on my AR platforms
Good topic. I keep a simple System. Compact/Full Size - Get a Red Dot. Subcompact/Micro gun - No Red Dot
Love the references of all the information you were sharing
My concealed carry pistols are stock, bare bones firearms. No aftermarket stuff. My fancier toys for the range, ABSOLUTELY deck them out with the toys.
I agree with training and practicing with what system you have, whether your CC have a red dot or not. its personal preference and what works for the inidividual, granting you put the work and training behind it
I prefer pocket sand as my EDC, so no sights required.
Ultimately it’ll come down to muscle memory perfected with practice. Whatever you decide to use, know what needs to be done to be successful.
LAZER 🔴
This was very entertaining and educational. Plus all three are very photographic.
I love red dots sights. However, for me to use them properly I had to train and practice to become efficient with them. There is never enough training and practice when it comes to the use of any firearm.
Using iron sights is helpful when first adapting to your weapon. However, because of age and sight-related issues it is difficult for me to quickly line up iron sights, especially in a darken environment and ones without some type of illumination. Therefore, a red dot or integrated laser greater improves my ability to quickly acquire the target and fire effectively. With my eyesight I use a green dot whenever the option is available.
Great points in this debate- thanks for making such interesting and watchable content. Props for the shout out to Colion Noir- agree 10/10.
The past video i seen with similar drills i started doing it and it feels good to train for the situation
Lemme bring the Dickens drill as a counter point to the close encounter argument
15:45 ok you brought it up haha
At 18:30 the two follow up shots you were point shooting and still performed well
For me personally target acquisition is much faster with the iron sight and I just don't see how pin point accuracy would be a benefit in a gun fight. However, I do have one on my pistol and train with it. But I also have one without a red dot because it's just another point of failure.
im surprised this wasnt mentioned in the video? Does anyone still use front sight focus apart from very pricise single shot practice? I have learnt to use target focus with both red dot and irons and it works really well with irons even at 15ft, especially with faster followup shots.
Great value version of Kaydi
Shot my cwp glock 48 for a few hours with iron sights and then my instructor gave me his glock 19 with a red dot sight. Shots were faster, more accurate, and i could follow up faster as well. I am of the belief that red dot sights are a better sight.
This topic is not settled science. We need the elisjsha dicken drill, and all 3 of you shoot both red dot and tritium iron night sights.
20:59 Ladies! One option is a toe stomp when the attacker is behind you. It’s not devastating but can be useful to break away for the moment to access your equalizer.
I use the thumb to lift the shirt. It's your strongest "finger". Keep your hand at a 90 and use the thumb straight up. Works best for me.
I have optics for my handguns but took them off. Prefer to run irons on my handguns and eotech on my ar. I Really only like optics on rifles .
Thank god clint is back im so sick of kayak
Your mom isn’t
One thing that maybe Kaya isn't thinking about..... LEO, open carries with their firearms. With that being said, its much easier for LEO to carry with a light, red dot and extended mag wells and mags. Conceal carry, its concealed.... We absolutely snag on our clothing
Topic was the effectiveness of red dot. So it’s irrelevant if it’s leo or civilian. Then it changed to drawing the weapon.
Finally Clint !!!!
Do 2 to the body and 3rd to the head while creating disance
I carry a glock 19 mos with tlr-7a and Holosun 507c
The only range around me is supper fud, can’t do anything like this there , so jealous
What matters most is training. No matter iron sights or red dot. But really true is you don't need any. In the most situations civilian gunfight will be on short distance and there is better option to shoot dynamically (if you know what you are doing). But better sights (whether iron or red dot - what you are trained for) is a huge advantage in situation like Eli Dicken. I can do Dicken drill with good results, but I cannot imagine it in stressful situation. I have a military background and also civilian shooter (not US, from Europe). And I am also trained, when you are in CC combat situation like civilian, and you draw, it is a moment when you simply just use gun. So I am trained to draw (I am carrying on 3th o'clock) and shoot from the hip and shoot another few rounds during maintaining proper posture and grip. Do not loose time to maintain stance and grip, and also during bringing the gun up to use sights, the attacker is still close to you, it is not standing, he probably attacks your gun if you have it before body moving up. I use the way that left (weak) hand is used to maintain distance right hand shot him from the hip, where attacker cannot reach it. But these things depends so much on training, your equipment, CC style, etc. Sara is great! She done great job.
Great content awesome topic: a drill that gun owners do not practice enough is drawing while in the seated position such as in a car with a seatbelt or per say you are a a game of some sort and you do not have a chance to stand and access your pistol so you have to draw while in the sitting position
Iron sights are very much target focus available as well.. two eyes open target focus = very clear fsp
At 16:09 Dicken had no training other than his grandfather taught him how to shoot.