Here it is! The long-awaited Battle of Prokhorovka video is finally out, and a few hours earlier than per usual! It took me longer than expected to make the video because a lot of the sources were contradicting. Several sources mentioned different dates, different unit positions or actual units. But, after figuring out the most plausible option I have come up with this video! So I hope you’ll enjoy! - The AceDestroyer
@@Abir-cb4ii No it's not. I posted a video about Panzer Ace von Ribbentrop a few months ago. It was the same battle, but just from his perspective. Now it's the battle in general.
A spot on analysis here. Again, an excellent viewpoint of this key battle in the Kursk Zitadelle Operation young man! Manstein's thought analysis was also hindered by a lack of good field intelligence. Had he gotten the 24th PZ Corps' aide, he would have had another 3 defensive belts to get thru (Soviet defense was six belts deep, some 300km back from the front). With Model's northern pincer halted, even with the best of intentions, Manstein couldn't have completed the encirclement, thus even on such wistful thinking by 20/20 hindsight generals today, Zitadelle was a failure, and remains a failed gambit of the OKW-Heere. Bravo!
Correct-even if the Germans closed the pincers, they were too week to beat off the flank attack..a German "Victory" would actually have turned into another Stalingrad.
'Die Hölle von Kursk: SS-Grenadiere 1943 im Kampf', by Kurt Pfötsch provides a very good look at the Battle of Prokhorovka from the perspective of an SS Mann serving in the LAH. The scope of his experience during the Kursk action is limited to what his SS Schar lives through on the ground- the only outside information they gain of the wider battle is gleaned from their Kradmelder, so the reader can truly experience a bottom-up view of the fighting. He breaks down the battle day by day, so there is a detailed account of what his squad experiences on July 12th. I highly recommend this book to you and all others who are interested in the Battle of Prokhorovka. Thank you for the video- great work as usual. Your footage, maps and recounting of this battle are all excellent. Weiter so! :)
Hi Ace, as always, excellent job detailing this tank battle-very hard to imagine watching this from a hill😜Thanks for giving some life to these lesser covered but important battles👍👍Great job!
Out of all the Documentaries and books I've watched and read about Kursk and Prokhorovka in particular, yours has by far laid out the events and statistics in the best understandable format. Thank you so much for this. Subscribed, liked, and hungry for more! 👍
I LOVE THE ACE DESTROYER !!!! THE ATTN. TO INTRICATE DETAIL IN OUTLINING THE SCOPE OF PARTICULAR BATTLES IS SECOND TO NONE !!!! BRAVO !!!! GREAT WORK 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Very nice job on the animated maps. Not too many videos out there give such a good presentation and timeline of what happened during those days in July 1943. 👍
In this battle, Soviet lost 500 tanks out of 800 (60%). The Germans lost 300 tanks out of 400 (75%). For them it was a disaster. Now the most powerful strike force of the Germans was drained of blood. General G. Guderian, at that time the inspector general of the tank forces of the Wehrmacht, wrote: “The armored forces, replenished with such great difficulty, were out of order for a long time due to heavy losses in people and equipment ... and already more in the East there were no quiet days at the front"
300 are completely destroyed and cannot be restored. But everyone is silent about how much the Germans sent to Germany to the factory for repairs: "were out of order *for a long time* due to heavy losses"
@@Vlad79500mmm ya idk 🤷🏾♂️ ...When considering the Soviet misreporting and German varying ways of reporting, the traditional loss numbers are largely misreported and skewed. As devastating as the battle was, it took place over too long a time period, too large a territory, w/ too many armies, to simply write up "tank" losses for either side as X amount. Shoo, the salient itself was larger than the state of New Jersey lol. Also as logistically drained and overextended as the Wehrmacht was, they actually got pretty good at saving and repairing their tanks to a battle ready standard in a short time. So if a tank was knocked out and then repaired in between reports then German procedure was to not write that up as a loss while the Soviets, who are already gonna inflate their numbers, definitely would.
@@tjanderson5892 You write about inaccurate Soviet reports and admit that the Wehrmacht actually learned to preserve and repair its tanks quite well. Where is the truth? Maybe the Soviet reports were not so inaccurate? "However, after the collapse of the Citadel plan, the *Eastern Front withdrew all the forces from France* and weakened the occupying units located there so much that replenishment was required. Naturally, the captured material part of this new compound had to be replaced with domestic modern technology. It was necessary to teach people to master the technique and act as part of the formation. The division had to be familiarized with the experience of conducting combat operations on the Eastern Front, and only then should it be given a feasible task in accordance with the level of its training. And what happened? At the beginning of October 1943 to Hitler's order, this division was to transfer to Eastern Front for the formed 14th Panzer Division, *over 600 newly received combat vehicles;* the high command of the armed forces and the main command of the ground forces believed that the 25th Panzer Division would remain in France for a long time, and therefore could do without them, being content with low-quality French equipment. This greatly worsened the armament of the division, which now could only be used in the Western Theater." Major General Heinz Günther Guderian "Erinnerungen eines Soldaten" (Memories of a Soldier) What should we pay attention to in this case? The fact that the division received 600 units of equipment. Maybe 300 is not such a relatively large loss as some historians are trying to show us? Then how much was spent on repairs at German factories? I will put a few quotes from which one can understand the scale of this "ordinary" battle. “The losses in the tanks were staggering. The Panther tanks did not live up to the hopes placed on them: they could easily be set on fire, the lubrication and power systems were not properly protected, the crews did not have sufficient training. Of all the Panthers that took part in battles, by July 14, only a few vehicles remained. Friedrich Wilhelm von Mellenthin "Panzer battles 1939-1945: A study of the employment of armor in the second world war" "Operation Citadel" began on July 5, 1943 with the offensive of the Army Group "Center" in the Orel region and the Army Group "South" near Belgorod. A total of 19 tank and motorized, as well as 16 infantry divisions went on the offensive. ran into the Russian defense in depth. Attempts by infantry and engineer units to clear the way with tanks cost heavy losses in manpower and equipment, but were inconclusive. Army Group South achieved some success at the beginning, but in mid-July it still had to abandon further operations. Of particular concern were the losses of tanks in the Belgorod meat grinder. The German armored forces never managed to recover from the blow received near Belgorod. Soviet Marshal Konev called this battle "the swan song of the German tank divisions."" Siegfried Westphal "Fatal Decisions of the Wehrmacht" Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, "Lost Victories": "The spring of 1943 on the Eastern Front was marked by preparations for Operation Citadel. It was the last attempt to maintain our initiative in the east. With its failure, tantamount to failure, the initiative finally passed to the Soviet side Therefore, Operation Citadel is a decisive turning point in the war on the Eastern Front. Major General of Tank Troops Friedrich von Mellenthin, "Tank Battles 1939-1945: Combat Use of Tanks in World War II": "Operation Citadel ended in complete failure ... After the failure of this offensive, which demanded the highest tension from the German troops, the strategic initiative passed to the Russians." Albert Speer (Reich Minister of Armaments and Military Production), memoirs: "The offensive began on July 5, but, despite the widespread use of the latest military equipment, we did not manage to cut off the Kursk salient and encircle the Soviet troops. Excessive self-confidence once again let Hitler down ", and after two weeks of fierce fighting, he was forced to admit the futility of his hopes. The unsuccessful outcome of the Battle of Kursk meant that from now on the Soviet Union seized the strategic initiative even at a favorable time for us." Paul Сarell (during the war, the press attache of the Minister of Foreign Affairs Ribbentrop, SS Obersturmbannführer, after the war - one of the largest German WWII researchers), "Scorched Earth": "The last great German offensive in Russia is over; it was lost. The worst thing is that "strategic reserves, created for many months by hard and selfless work, in particular mobile divisions, burned in the hot firebox of Kursk, not having achieved their intended goal. The offensive power of the Germans was irreversibly broken. From that time on, the formation of strategic reserves became impossible. Just like Waterloo in 1815 decided the fate of Napoleon, ending his reign and changing the face of Europe, so the Russian victory at Kursk was the turning point of the entire war and two years later led to the death of Hitler, the defeat of Germany and completely changed the world order.From this point of view, Operation Citadel was the decisive battle of World War II. Official Soviet military history quite rightly calls it a "battle of world historical significance." “A lot more was at stake than just the city of Kursk or the advance across the terrain to the north, south and east, namely what would never be reflected in the diagrams and maps - the merciless reprisal against the Russians, and this was the essence of the German plan: to wear down, grind, disperse, kill and capture ... Later, if the operation "Citadel" goes as Hitler expected, a big new attack on Moscow will follow. Later, he will put into practice his top secret plan "Arctic Fox", and the German armed forces will occupy Sweden with a lightning strike. Later, he ... will strengthen the troops in Italy to repel the Allied invasion and throw them into the sea, for he knew that the time for this invasion was approaching. He will send powerful reinforcements to the Atlantic Wall - perhaps enough to break the back of the invasion forces from England ... This was not only the Russian fate, which was to be decided near Kursk, but the fate of the war itself " Caidin. M. The Tigers Are Burning. New York: Hawthorn, 1974, p. 4, 5, 8.
@@Vlad79500 not sure how any of that even responded to my factual statement that the Soviets deliberately misreported losses. That's not conjecture, it's just fact. How do I know their numbers are inaccurate? Bc it's well known how they relied so heavily on covering up what they could hide in order to justify what they couldn't hide. In order for their propaganda to cover up their tactical inefficiencies and huge casualty numbers they needed to inflate the size of the enemy. And as for Germany, they're one of the few cultures in the world who are known largely for how meticulous and detailed orientated they are in every part of their society. So I was just pointing out that their definition of a destroyed tank may differ from what many ppl would consider a destroyed tank. It wasn't to skew the numbers or anything, it's just how they kept their records. Think your response was more just a soliloquy showing everyone that in rare cases sometimes the more ya read the less ya know lol
I think your research and work doing these videos are outstanding !! Your maps really put the battles into perspective, great job !! Thanks for sharing.
As a combat vet who has now had some decades to study history, I will say with much enthusiasm that any commander who launches an attack which the enemy is known to be aware of is a fool, and his troops will always suffer needlessly. While planning is never a bad idea, the longer you wait to actually launch the advance will see more losses than if an attack had been initiated as soon as possible to the initial contact with the enemy. Too, the luxury of "time" is relative to the size of the enemy force. Five minutes to attack for an enemy squad size, perhaps fifteen for a company size unit, etc.
This actually made me wish I had one of those big tables with the battle-field all laid out with miniatures to move around in sequence for first-hand observance. What a scene man.
some have said that the armored clash at 73 Easting in the 1991 Gulf War was the most intense tank battle in history. no idea where that information came from because that was a very one sided battle, where as the Kursk Salient was a meat grinder of highly attritional warfare.
It's been reported that there was a bigger Tank battle in 1941. More tanks involved, and a German victory, which would explain why it is not so publicized. ahahaha
@@zettle2345 Rovno-Brody,but you can just lump it together with other border battles like at Grodno and Raseinai.It's not really fair to compare them.At border battles,Soviet units were quickly thrown into the battle following surprise German attack,thus catching them with their pants down, almost without any real semblance of organization, with poorly trained crews who could barely repair small breaks on their tanks.
scott szabo - NO one has every said the the battle of 73 Easting was the biggest tank battle ever, but what people have actually said was that it was the largest MODERN tank battle in history! There is a BIG difference!
The news said it was the largest tank battle since WWII, not that it was larger or that the armies were in anyway similar to Germans and Russians at Kursk though the memory of Kursk was thrown around improperly I think.
@@zettle2345 That particular battle was horribly one sided which is why it doesn't get much attention almost 60% of all the soviet tanks were the light BT-7 or other outdated variants, Kursk was one of the first "fair" engagements in terms of equipment quality.
This was very interesting ,as thank you. My great uncle fought in this battle He was Hauptmann Rudolf Suhr of Panzerjaager Abt 150 attached to 50th Inf Reg 9th Army. He was sadly KAI in East Prussia 20/01/45 He has a grave stone with his wife in Germany , but I certainly do not think his body would have been returned from the hell of the ost front.
My pleasure! I'm happy to see that you enjoyed it. Also thank you for your personal story. I always enjoy these. Does he have a known grave or is he still listed as missing?
The name Prokhorovka keeps coming up in the battles around Kursk but everyone seems to have a different take on the conduct of the battle. This video seems to have distilled a number of reports into a coherent storyline, congratulations.
General Rokosovssky about German army: German army was a well oiled machine, but we found a way to put a stake in their wheel. The rest is a history. Lesson learned! Don't try it again.😁😁😁
Very good video, thanks for posting. You did an excellent job of mixing small details with an overall view of the battle. I also noted the "sources were contradicting" point in the pinned comment. Anyone who has done much research, even using actual AARs, OOBs and TOEs will find this is true, especially when dealing with the chaos of the Eastern Front. In some cases, we'll never know certain details for sure, and it's up to the historian to make the call at times...hopefully using logic (and not personal bias) to make a conclusion. I think you've been doing a good job at this so far. Keep up the good work!
Great video, Ace. I've been waiting for this one as well - so thank you for taking the time to make it informative, in depth, and without bias. Have a good one and keep up the fantastic work.
Perhaps the clearest video on youtube explaining Prokhorovka. Absolutely fascinating. I am curreently using it along w books and other sources to design an epic and playable battlefield including PROKHOROVKA, KURSK, PONIRY. Epic research. Chuckled when I heard the "bite him in the ass" comment. TWO THUMBS UP!
I'm reading THE BATTLE OF TANKS by Lloyd Clark. It's about Kursk. Excellent book filled with first hand accounts of the true hell experienced by the soldiers that fought at Kursk
Yes what an engagement they went through there think it was Hanns Dorr's Germania Regiment which took Schandarovka in early feb. Reading Hells Gate by Douglas Nash was a moving experience towards the end of the battle it turns almost into a horror story of how they broke out that pocket.
I agree, the maps are critical for understanding what is actually happening on the ground and are usually missing in battle documentaries, just giving place names tells us nothing unless you have a photographic memory of the entire world's geography....
What a battle! Have you seen the kreigsberichter archive ace there's a collection in there of ss troops at kursk, I, m sure you have its an excellent archive for ss in ww2, another great video ace👍👌
I know it's a minor point, but contrary to people on some other history channels, you clearly have put a lot of work in your pronunciations, which needs to be acknowledged. Words like "Obersturmführer" or "Sturmbannführer" don't exactly roll off the tongue for non-native speakers. 👏
Great going man! You really sorted out your sources and the presentation turned out beautifully. The SS Panzer Corps Das Reich ,Liebstandarte,and Totenkopf gave the Red Hordes a difficult run.According to your narrative and historical records,Vatutin had cause to despair on many occasions. Great going Ace!
"There are 200 Soviet T-34s attacking!" "Ja wohl. Send Wittman with *four* Tigers to stop them." (190 soviet tanks destroyed. 1 Tiger damaged and abandoned) If this were War Thunder, 200 Tigers couldn't stop the 200 T-34s. You finally upgrade to the Tiger and you now mover slower at 28 mph, but your thicker armor and larger gun make no difference.
But the average tiger player in war thunder is not an expert ace, nor is the average t-34 player a Soviet peasant so it’s basically impossible to have a fully realistic tank game.
I LOVE YOUR NARRATION SKILLS !!!! YOU ARE THE VERY BEST OF THE BEST !!!!! I LOVE ACE DESTROYER !!!!! THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU BRING TO US !!!! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
The Luftwaffe was the bigger story. It burned through its avgas reserves at a shocking clip. The Soviets simply 'out gassed' the Germans. So even though the Luftwaffe shot down scads of Red aircraft, eventually it was grounded for lack of fuel -- the intensity was that great. This grand battle was also the site of the first use of cluster bombs -- by the Luftwaffe. The Red Army took horrific casualties from them as no-one realized that their blast pattern would cover such a wide area. The Ost Heer lost the gasoline war, before they lost the combat war. BTW, Hitler pulled out the equivalent of one panzer army and one infantry army, from Russia, so as to hang on to Italy. Had he not done so, the Anglo-Allies would've been marching up the Alps in short order. This strategic shift is why the Anglo-Allies had a profound impact on the Eastern Campaign. Hitler permanently lost any initiative in the East.
Thank you again for an outstanding video and detailed commentary, you are by far the best in this field. The German Army in WWII was the best fighting force this world has ever seen as is clearly demonstrated in this video.
At the end of the day the Nazi army was defeated by the "subhuman" bolcheviks and the nazi claim of invincibility was for ever gone. Arrogance and racism had a steep price for the fascists.
@@pedinomefaux lol. You mean barely defeated by 3 major world powers. 20 million dead Bolsheviks together with 100 000 of their tanks destroyed and 108 000 aircraft downed. What a victory that was.
You should do one On Pz Jgr Abt 653 and their actions at Kursk. While the Ferdinand had their problems they were very effective at destroying Soviet armour
I understand that as one looks back on history it's easy to point out mistakes. But the whole attack by the Germans at Kursk really seems like a huge mistake at the time. Russians knew and the Germans knew they knew. Absolutely nothing was going the Germans way before they attacked...Yet they went anyway. After talking it up and building it up..It must be the hardest thing in war to say "We ain't doing it". Operation Market Garden is another example
The Germans lost 760 damaged tanks at the railheads, when they were overrun by the Russians, after the battle of Kursk. 156 of them were to new Panthers. These losses were never added to German losses during the battle, only a few months later to total losses on the front [1300 for July/Aug 1943] so we get a false casualty figures by the Germans. Also the Germans stated the thousands HIWIS ran off! when they were actually drafted into the combat units during the battle. So these men took up the ration strength to skew the figures. Oh and look how many German anti-tank guns were knocked out during the Russian Tank attack.... one SS DIV lost all of them.
Great video thank you!😊 maybe a new video about the konrad 1-2-3 and the spring awakening operations?. I think these are not a very well known parts of the war...but there were brutal fightings...
What is that falling out of the sky after the German officers point and stare straight up at 23:03? It looks like a particular tank part, but falling from that height?
Accurate, first time I see a youtube video debunkeing this accurately the myth of Prokhorovka as soviet victory (lies from Vatutin and Rotmistrov), you even mentionned the soviet tanks blocked by their own anti-tank ditch, nice !
What have you been watching? The Russians themselves covered the entire battle of Kursk years ago (including Prokhorovka) and did an excellent job. They most definitely didn't paint it as a victory, but showed it for the slaughter it was. th-cam.com/video/y_bjuREfUbU/w-d-xo.html And the information here isn't from wikipedia (like our friend here, who lifted some bits from wikipedia verbatim) but comes from military archives.
@@atarkus8 "They most definitely didn't paint it as a victory" They did, Vatutin and Rotmistrov lies to avoid Stalin anger, that's it. Yeah of course some Russians now say the truth, but there are still lies and propaganda from soviet era regarding this battle. There are also nazi lis and propaganda that people still believe today (like polish cavalry charging german tanks)
often overlooked is the fact that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union split the invasion and divided Poland at the start of the war. later the added distance from that division slowed The Nazi armies from encircling Moscow giving the Soviets time to bring in the Siberian troops for their winter defense.
Guderian: With the failure of Zitadelle we have suffered a decisive defeat. The armoured formations, reformed and re-equipped with so much effort, had lost heavily in both men and equipment and would now be unemployable for a long time to come. It was problematical whether they could be rehabilitated in time to defend the Eastern Front ... Needless to say the [Soviets] exploited their victory to the full. There were to be no more periods of quiet on the Eastern Front. From now on, the enemy was in undisputed possession of the initiative. Cheers
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pZbsSDRrmXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Here it is! The long-awaited Battle of Prokhorovka video is finally out, and a few hours earlier than per usual! It took me longer than expected to make the video because a lot of the sources were contradicting. Several sources mentioned different dates, different unit positions or actual units. But, after figuring out the most plausible option I have come up with this video! So I hope you’ll enjoy! - The AceDestroyer
Nice new vid cheers :)
is this a reupload ?
@@Abir-cb4ii No it's not. I posted a video about Panzer Ace von Ribbentrop a few months ago. It was the same battle, but just from his perspective. Now it's the battle in general.
Will you cover tank battle near Radzymin in 1944?
Not in the near future @Taka Smaka , but I really appreciate these suggestions. I might make one later on.
What I like most about "Ace' videos is that it effectively uses video footage and Map diagrams to explain what's going on.
A spot on analysis here. Again, an excellent viewpoint of this key battle in the Kursk Zitadelle Operation young man! Manstein's thought analysis was also hindered by a lack of good field intelligence. Had he gotten the 24th PZ Corps' aide, he would have had another 3 defensive belts to get thru (Soviet defense was six belts deep, some 300km back from the front). With Model's northern pincer halted, even with the best of intentions, Manstein couldn't have completed the encirclement, thus even on such wistful thinking by 20/20 hindsight generals today, Zitadelle was a failure, and remains a failed gambit of the OKW-Heere. Bravo!
It was the fault of the English.
Correct-even if the Germans closed the pincers, they were too week to beat off the flank attack..a German "Victory" would actually have turned into another Stalingrad.
@@genekelly8467 probably not
'Die Hölle von Kursk: SS-Grenadiere 1943 im Kampf', by Kurt Pfötsch provides a very good look at the Battle of Prokhorovka from the perspective of an SS Mann serving in the LAH. The scope of his experience during the Kursk action is limited to what his SS Schar lives through on the ground- the only outside information they gain of the wider battle is gleaned from their Kradmelder, so the reader can truly experience a bottom-up view of the fighting. He breaks down the battle day by day, so there is a detailed account of what his squad experiences on July 12th. I highly recommend this book to you and all others who are interested in the Battle of Prokhorovka. Thank you for the video- great work as usual. Your footage, maps and recounting of this battle are all excellent. Weiter so! :)
THank you for the information
Hi Ace, as always, excellent job detailing this tank battle-very hard to imagine watching this from a hill😜Thanks for giving some life to these lesser covered but important battles👍👍Great job!
Thanks mate!
Out of all the Documentaries and books I've watched and read about Kursk and Prokhorovka in particular, yours has by far laid out the events and statistics in the best understandable format. Thank you so much for this. Subscribed, liked, and hungry for more! 👍
Thank you very much! I'm very happy to hear that! Oh, thank you I really appreciate it!
That cheeky little "cheers" at the end made me smile. Great breakdown of the action of this famous battle!
Wow 14 soviet tanks with a Panzer 4 in a single engagement, I would have to say he was one hell of a tank commander!
Incredibly well detailed report which I thoroughly enjoyed
BEST description of this famous battle that I've ever seen! The first time that I ever read about Kursk was in 1975....👍🏼
I apricate your videos I am a history student and absolutely love studying German armor tactics from the eastern front
I LOVE THE ACE DESTROYER !!!! THE ATTN. TO INTRICATE DETAIL IN OUTLINING THE SCOPE OF PARTICULAR BATTLES IS SECOND TO NONE !!!! BRAVO !!!! GREAT WORK 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Love the detail here. We all know the battle, but never seen a documentary with such detail. Thank you!
Thank you! Very happy to hear that!
Very nice job on the animated maps. Not too many videos out there give such a good presentation and timeline of what happened during those days in July 1943. 👍
Your channel deserves way more subcribes you should try and cross promote with some other well established channels. As always keep up the great work
In this battle, Soviet lost 500 tanks out of 800 (60%). The Germans lost 300 tanks out of 400 (75%). For them it was a disaster. Now the most powerful strike force of the Germans was drained of blood. General G. Guderian, at that time the inspector general of the tank forces of the Wehrmacht, wrote: “The armored forces, replenished with such great difficulty, were out of order for a long time due to heavy losses in people and equipment ... and already more in the East there were no quiet days at the front"
300 are completely destroyed and cannot be restored. But everyone is silent about how much the Germans sent to Germany to the factory for repairs: "were out of order *for a long time* due to heavy losses"
@@Vlad79500mmm ya idk 🤷🏾♂️ ...When considering the Soviet misreporting and German varying ways of reporting, the traditional loss numbers are largely misreported and skewed.
As devastating as the battle was, it took place over too long a time period, too large a territory, w/ too many armies, to simply write up "tank" losses for either side as X amount.
Shoo, the salient itself was larger than the state of New Jersey lol. Also as logistically drained and overextended as the Wehrmacht was, they actually got pretty good at saving and repairing their tanks to a battle ready standard in a short time. So if a tank was knocked out and then repaired in between reports then German procedure was to not write that up as a loss while the Soviets, who are already gonna inflate their numbers, definitely would.
@@tjanderson5892
You write about inaccurate Soviet reports and admit that the Wehrmacht actually learned to preserve and repair its tanks quite well. Where is the truth? Maybe the Soviet reports were not so inaccurate?
"However, after the collapse of the Citadel plan, the *Eastern Front withdrew all the forces from France* and weakened the occupying units located there so much that replenishment was required. Naturally, the captured material part of this new compound had to be replaced with domestic modern technology. It was necessary to teach people to master the technique and act as part of the formation. The division had to be familiarized with the experience of conducting combat operations on the Eastern Front, and only then should it be given a feasible task in accordance with the level of its training.
And what happened? At the beginning of October 1943 to Hitler's order, this division was to transfer to Eastern Front for the formed 14th Panzer Division, *over 600 newly received combat vehicles;* the high command of the armed forces and the main command of the ground forces believed that the 25th Panzer Division would remain in France for a long time, and therefore could do without them, being content with low-quality French equipment. This greatly worsened the armament of the division, which now could only be used in the Western Theater."
Major General Heinz Günther Guderian "Erinnerungen eines Soldaten" (Memories of a Soldier)
What should we pay attention to in this case? The fact that the division received 600 units of equipment. Maybe 300 is not such a relatively large loss as some historians are trying to show us? Then how much was spent on repairs at German factories? I will put a few quotes from which one can understand the scale of this "ordinary" battle.
“The losses in the tanks were staggering. The Panther tanks did not live up to the hopes placed on them: they could easily be set on fire, the lubrication and power systems were not properly protected, the crews did not have sufficient training. Of all the Panthers that took part in battles, by July 14, only a few vehicles remained.
Friedrich Wilhelm von Mellenthin "Panzer battles 1939-1945: A study of the employment of armor in the second world war"
"Operation Citadel" began on July 5, 1943 with the offensive of the Army Group "Center" in the Orel region and the Army Group "South" near Belgorod. A total of 19 tank and motorized, as well as 16 infantry divisions went on the offensive. ran into the Russian defense in depth. Attempts by infantry and engineer units to clear the way with tanks cost heavy losses in manpower and equipment, but were inconclusive. Army Group South achieved some success at the beginning, but in mid-July it still had to abandon further operations.
Of particular concern were the losses of tanks in the Belgorod meat grinder. The German armored forces never managed to recover from the blow received near Belgorod. Soviet Marshal Konev called this battle "the swan song of the German tank divisions.""
Siegfried Westphal "Fatal Decisions of the Wehrmacht"
Field Marshal Erich von Manstein, "Lost Victories": "The spring of 1943 on the Eastern Front was marked by preparations for Operation Citadel. It was the last attempt to maintain our initiative in the east. With its failure, tantamount to failure, the initiative finally passed to the Soviet side Therefore, Operation Citadel is a decisive turning point in the war on the Eastern Front.
Major General of Tank Troops Friedrich von Mellenthin, "Tank Battles 1939-1945: Combat Use of Tanks in World War II":
"Operation Citadel ended in complete failure ... After the failure of this offensive, which demanded the highest tension from the German troops, the strategic initiative passed to the Russians."
Albert Speer (Reich Minister of Armaments and Military Production), memoirs: "The offensive began on July 5, but, despite the widespread use of the latest military equipment, we did not manage to cut off the Kursk salient and encircle the Soviet troops. Excessive self-confidence once again let Hitler down ", and after two weeks of fierce fighting, he was forced to admit the futility of his hopes. The unsuccessful outcome of the Battle of Kursk meant that from now on the Soviet Union seized the strategic initiative even at a favorable time for us."
Paul Сarell (during the war, the press attache of the Minister of Foreign Affairs Ribbentrop, SS Obersturmbannführer, after the war - one of the largest German WWII researchers), "Scorched Earth": "The last great German offensive in Russia is over; it was lost. The worst thing is that "strategic reserves, created for many months by hard and selfless work, in particular mobile divisions, burned in the hot firebox of Kursk, not having achieved their intended goal. The offensive power of the Germans was irreversibly broken. From that time on, the formation of strategic reserves became impossible. Just like Waterloo in 1815 decided the fate of Napoleon, ending his reign and changing the face of Europe, so the Russian victory at Kursk was the turning point of the entire war and two years later led to the death of Hitler, the defeat of Germany and completely changed the world order.From this point of view, Operation Citadel was the decisive battle of World War II. Official Soviet military history quite rightly calls it a "battle of world historical significance."
“A lot more was at stake than just the city of Kursk or the advance across the terrain to the north, south and east, namely what would never be reflected in the diagrams and maps - the merciless reprisal against the Russians, and this was the essence of the German plan: to wear down, grind, disperse, kill and capture ... Later, if the operation "Citadel" goes as Hitler expected, a big new attack on Moscow will follow. Later, he will put into practice his top secret plan "Arctic Fox", and the German armed forces will occupy Sweden with a lightning strike. Later, he ... will strengthen the troops in Italy to repel the Allied invasion and throw them into the sea, for he knew that the time for this invasion was approaching. He will send powerful reinforcements to the Atlantic Wall - perhaps enough to break the back of the invasion forces from England ... This was not only the Russian fate, which was to be decided near Kursk, but the fate of the war itself "
Caidin. M. The Tigers Are Burning. New York: Hawthorn, 1974, p. 4, 5, 8.
@@Vlad79500 not sure how any of that even responded to my factual statement that the Soviets deliberately misreported losses. That's not conjecture, it's just fact. How do I know their numbers are inaccurate? Bc it's well known how they relied so heavily on covering up what they could hide in order to justify what they couldn't hide. In order for their propaganda to cover up their tactical inefficiencies and huge casualty numbers they needed to inflate the size of the enemy.
And as for Germany, they're one of the few cultures in the world who are known largely for how meticulous and detailed orientated they are in every part of their society. So I was just pointing out that their definition of a destroyed tank may differ from what many ppl would consider a destroyed tank. It wasn't to skew the numbers or anything, it's just how they kept their records.
Think your response was more just a soliloquy showing everyone that in rare cases sometimes the more ya read the less ya know lol
I think your research and work doing these videos are outstanding !! Your maps really put the battles into perspective, great job !! Thanks for sharing.
My pleasure! Happy to see that you enjoyed it!
As a combat vet who has now had some decades to study history, I will say with much enthusiasm that any commander who launches an attack which the enemy is known to be aware of is a fool, and his troops will always suffer needlessly.
While planning is never a bad idea, the longer you wait to actually launch the advance will see more losses than if an attack had been initiated as soon as possible to the initial contact with the enemy.
Too, the luxury of "time" is relative to the size of the enemy force.
Five minutes to attack for an enemy squad size, perhaps fifteen for a company size unit, etc.
Awesome commentary and graphics as usual Ace Destroyer. I now understand EXACTLY how this crucial battle played out. Very well done.
Thanks mate! Very pleased to hear that!
This actually made me wish I had one of those big tables with the battle-field all laid out with miniatures to move around in sequence for first-hand observance. What a scene man.
This should be part of the Battlefield video series. Thank you.
some have said that the armored clash at 73 Easting in the 1991 Gulf War was the most intense tank battle in history. no idea where that information came from because that was a very one sided battle, where as the Kursk Salient was a meat grinder of highly attritional warfare.
It's been reported that there was a bigger Tank battle in 1941. More tanks involved, and a German victory, which would explain why it is not so publicized. ahahaha
@@zettle2345 Rovno-Brody,but you can just lump it together with other border battles like at Grodno and Raseinai.It's not really fair to compare them.At border battles,Soviet units were quickly thrown into the battle following surprise German attack,thus catching them with their pants down, almost without any real semblance of organization, with poorly trained crews who could barely repair small breaks on their tanks.
scott szabo - NO one has every said the the battle of 73 Easting was the biggest tank battle ever, but what people have actually said was that it was the largest MODERN tank battle in history! There is a BIG difference!
The news said it was the largest tank battle since WWII, not that it was larger or that the armies were in anyway similar to Germans and Russians at Kursk though the memory of Kursk was thrown around improperly I think.
@@zettle2345 That particular battle was horribly one sided which is why it doesn't get much attention almost 60% of all the soviet tanks were the light BT-7 or other outdated variants, Kursk was one of the first "fair" engagements in terms of equipment quality.
This was very interesting ,as thank you.
My great uncle fought in this battle He was Hauptmann Rudolf Suhr of Panzerjaager Abt 150 attached to 50th Inf Reg 9th Army.
He was sadly KAI in East Prussia 20/01/45
He has a grave stone with his wife in Germany , but I certainly do not think his body would have been returned from the hell of the ost front.
My pleasure! I'm happy to see that you enjoyed it. Also thank you for your personal story. I always enjoy these. Does he have a known grave or is he still listed as missing?
Va salut din Brașov, România! După cum știți, Armata Română a luptat alături de Wehrmacht ...apoi,toți am sfârșit ..ocupați de URSS...
If you look up the term “ Telegraphing your Punch” it refers to the Kursk battle as the best example
The name Prokhorovka keeps coming up in the battles around Kursk but everyone seems to have a different take on the conduct of the battle. This video seems to have distilled a number of reports into a coherent storyline, congratulations.
Thanks! Yeah, I had a hard time making the script due to all the various reports, but eventually I came with this.
General Rokosovssky about German army:
German army was a well oiled machine, but we found a way to put a stake in their wheel. The rest is a history. Lesson learned! Don't try it again.😁😁😁
Marshal Rokossovssky.
Rokosovssky “From the Gulag to Field Marshal” . If he hadn’t been a red, Hollywood would have made a movie about him.
“Put a stake in their wheel” in other words simply overwhelm the enemy in numbers no matter how high the causalities are.
Excellent video mate. I already knew a lot about this battle, but I still learned a lot from this video!
Thanks mate! Very happy to hear that!
Very well done
Excellent job Sir!! You should've a Patreon account, so we can support your work... Cheers!!! :-)
Thank you very much! That's most generous, but I don't think I will have such an account any time soon.
@@TheAceDestroyer But start thinking of it!
@@hatsikmaroukian4111 Well done Ace Destroyer.
I've never heard of it called Prokhorovka before. Thank you
Thank you for posting......most interesting.
I will be studying and paying more closer attention to your careful attention to detail.
EXCELLENT.
Very good video, thanks for posting. You did an excellent job of mixing small details with an overall view of the battle. I also noted the "sources were contradicting" point in the pinned comment. Anyone who has done much research, even using actual AARs, OOBs and TOEs will find this is true, especially when dealing with the chaos of the Eastern Front. In some cases, we'll never know certain details for sure, and it's up to the historian to make the call at times...hopefully using logic (and not personal bias) to make a conclusion. I think you've been doing a good job at this so far. Keep up the good work!
Thanks mate! I truly means a lot!
Excellent video, thanks. Some serious research you've done there, and the maps are outstanding. Great stuff. Cheers.
My pleasure! Very happy to see that you like the maps as well!
Another excellent video. You cover topics that alot of WW2 videos do not.
Great video, Ace. I've been waiting for this one as well - so thank you for taking the time to make it informative, in depth, and without bias. Have a good one and keep up the fantastic work.
Thanks mate! Happy to hear that!
Perhaps the clearest video on youtube explaining Prokhorovka. Absolutely fascinating. I am curreently using it along w books and other sources to design an epic and playable battlefield including PROKHOROVKA, KURSK, PONIRY. Epic research. Chuckled when I heard the "bite him in the ass" comment. TWO THUMBS UP!
Thank you very much! I'm very happy to hear that!
@@TheAceDestroyer vielen, vielen Dank!
Thanks a lot for the video....and information....
Nice job, some excellent details.
I'm reading THE BATTLE OF TANKS by Lloyd Clark. It's about Kursk. Excellent book filled with first hand accounts of the true hell experienced by the soldiers that fought at Kursk
Maybe a video about the Division Wiking and their part in the battle of Tscherkassy especially Schandarovka? Good video btw
Or wollomin 1944.
Yes what an engagement they went through there think it was Hanns Dorr's Germania Regiment which took Schandarovka in early feb. Reading Hells Gate by Douglas Nash was a moving experience towards the end of the battle it turns almost into a horror story of how they broke out that pocket.
Good idea!😉
Are the maps custom made by yourself?
Yes! I hope you like them?
@@TheAceDestroyer Yes they are awesome
@@TheAceDestroyer We appreciate the effort you put into your contents!
I agree, the maps are critical for understanding what is actually happening on the ground and are usually missing in battle documentaries, just giving place names tells us nothing unless you have a photographic memory of the entire world's geography....
Looks like Stalin was also micro managing his forces , all of the Soviet generals were shaking in their boots !
Excellent job. Better than History channel. You are REAL Historian Sir. Thank you
Thanks Mark! It really means a lot to me! Very happy to hear that!
Thank you
What a battle! Have you seen the kreigsberichter archive ace there's a collection in there of ss troops at kursk, I, m sure you have its an excellent archive for ss in ww2, another great video ace👍👌
Thanks! And, yes I have seen it before, there are some stunning photo's on there.
Fabulous once again, keep up the magnificent uploads. I'm hoping Italy is on the menu for sometime in the future?
Thanks! Well, it might actually, certainly as I haven't done one about Italy. I'll what I can dig up.
Wow, somehow I missed this one until now.
Excellent presentation. 👍
Brilliant breakdown and explanation along with the pictures of commanders and videos!
Thanks mate! Very happy to see that you liked it!
I know it's a minor point, but contrary to people on some other history channels, you clearly have put a lot of work in your pronunciations, which needs to be acknowledged. Words like "Obersturmführer" or "Sturmbannführer" don't exactly roll off the tongue for non-native speakers. 👏
You are made a crear job.....congratulations.
"Michael WIttmann, who had become famous for his actions at VIllers-Bocage"...which did not happen until a year later, in 1944!!!
Sounded a bit like Who,....would?
Great going man! You really sorted out your sources and the presentation turned out beautifully. The SS Panzer Corps Das Reich ,Liebstandarte,and Totenkopf gave the Red Hordes a difficult run.According to your narrative and historical records,Vatutin had cause to despair on many occasions. Great going Ace!
BRING BK YOUR REGULAR INTRO. OR THE EARLY INTRO W THE PIPE ORGAN. THAT WAS PRICELESS !!!
"There are 200 Soviet T-34s attacking!"
"Ja wohl. Send Wittman with *four* Tigers to stop them." (190 soviet tanks destroyed. 1 Tiger damaged and abandoned)
If this were War Thunder, 200 Tigers couldn't stop the 200 T-34s. You finally upgrade to the Tiger and you now mover slower at 28 mph, but your thicker armor and larger gun make no difference.
But the average tiger player in war thunder is not an expert ace, nor is the average t-34 player a Soviet peasant so it’s basically impossible to have a fully realistic tank game.
Warthunder is messed up
This is some awesome content, thanks for the great video
Great work Ace.
Thanks mate!
@@TheAceDestroyer
BZ Cmdr.
Imagine riding into battle on one of those four Whitman tigers
Imagine riding on T 34 in Berlin😁😁😁
I LOVE YOUR NARRATION SKILLS !!!! YOU ARE THE VERY BEST OF THE BEST !!!!! I LOVE ACE DESTROYER !!!!! THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU BRING TO US !!!! 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
No mention of the German artillery losses, wipe out of the anti tank regiment, and the grenadier HQ's being overrun?
And the separation of the infantry from the tanks.
You do a very fine job in these presentations. Excellent work!
Thanks mate! Happy to hear that!
Been Binge Watching your Videos I think You Put a lot of work into every video,Love your Content
I'm very happy to see that you're enjoying the content! Thanks!
Magnífico trabajo...enhorabuena desde españa
Very nice, thank you for upload.
Man this Video is so good. Thank you
The Luftwaffe was the bigger story. It burned through its avgas reserves at a shocking clip. The Soviets simply 'out gassed' the Germans. So even though the Luftwaffe shot down scads of Red aircraft, eventually it was grounded for lack of fuel -- the intensity was that great. This grand battle was also the site of the first use of cluster bombs -- by the Luftwaffe. The Red Army took horrific casualties from them as no-one realized that their blast pattern would cover such a wide area. The Ost Heer lost the gasoline war, before they lost the combat war.
BTW, Hitler pulled out the equivalent of one panzer army and one infantry army, from Russia, so as to hang on to Italy. Had he not done so, the Anglo-Allies would've been marching up the Alps in short order. This strategic shift is why the Anglo-Allies had a profound impact on the Eastern Campaign. Hitler permanently lost any initiative in the East.
This is very well done. Big thx!
Another great video.
Thanks.
Good and interresting info.
Another great job! Great detail and research. I very much look forward to every video! Thanks for your excellent work and Cheers from Vancouver BC 🍺🍺🍺
Thanks again mate! I really appreciate it!
Thank you again for an outstanding video and detailed commentary, you are by far the best in this field. The German Army in WWII was the best fighting force this world has ever seen as is clearly demonstrated in this video.
Tanks for sharing 👍💣👌
Amazing report on a battle not usually covered in detail. The Germans did very well in a battle one would have thought to be a 50/50 outcome.
At the end of the day the Nazi army was defeated by the "subhuman" bolcheviks and the nazi claim of invincibility was for ever gone. Arrogance and racism had a steep price for the fascists.
@@pedinomefaux lol. You mean barely defeated by 3 major world powers. 20 million dead Bolsheviks together with 100 000 of their tanks destroyed and 108 000 aircraft downed. What a victory that was.
And with the destruction of Berlin and the colonisation of Germany.
I wonder how many Panther tanks could be made with the metal on the Ocean Floor from the Bismark - sunk on it's maiden voyage ...
Great quality of documentary.
You should do one On Pz Jgr Abt 653 and their actions at Kursk. While the Ferdinand had their problems they were very effective at destroying Soviet armour
Awsome work !
Another excellent video man!
Thanks mate! Happy to see that you liked it!
Thanks a lot, good job.
Great video on this pivotal battle!
I understand that as one looks back on history it's easy to point out mistakes. But the whole attack by the Germans at Kursk really seems like a huge mistake at the time. Russians knew and the Germans knew they knew. Absolutely nothing was going the Germans way before they attacked...Yet they went anyway. After talking it up and building it up..It must be the hardest thing in war to say "We ain't doing it". Operation Market Garden is another example
Thank you for such a well researched, objective narrative! Another great video! :-)))
Thanks! Happy to see that you enjoyed it!
E.X.C.E.L.L.E.N.T....Keep them coming very very informative
Thanks! I'm very happy to see that you enjoyed it!
GREAT VID. THANK YOU ACE DESTROYER !!!
Awesome as usual! 👍
Sehr gutes Video in der Tat. Sehr gute Informationen in dieser Dokumentation, insbesondere über die 3. SS Totenkopf Division.
Danke!
Excellent video as always,, good sources cited, a job well done about one of the most well-known yet controversial actions on the Ostfront.
Thanks!
Well done, most informative and enjoyable!
Thanks! I'm glad to see that you enjoyed it!
The Germans lost 760 damaged tanks at the railheads, when they were overrun by the Russians, after the battle of Kursk. 156 of them were to new Panthers. These losses were never added to German losses during the battle, only a few months later to total losses on the front [1300 for July/Aug 1943] so we get a false casualty figures by the Germans. Also the Germans stated the thousands HIWIS ran off! when they were actually drafted into the combat units during the battle. So these men took up the ration strength to skew the figures. Oh and look how many German anti-tank guns were knocked out during the Russian Tank attack.... one SS DIV lost all of them.
Great video thank you!😊 maybe a new video about the konrad 1-2-3 and the spring awakening operations?. I think these are not a very well known parts of the war...but there were brutal fightings...
I second that!
Michael Whitman and his crew were at their best on that historic day.
Great great stuff thank you so much 👍
My pleasure! Happy to see that you enjoyed it!
What is that falling out of the sky after the German officers point and stare straight up at 23:03? It looks like a particular tank part, but falling from that height?
i like the way you say cheers
I enjoyed the content as well as the pronunciations
Thanks! I'm really happy to hear that!
Accurate, first time I see a youtube video debunkeing this accurately the myth of Prokhorovka as soviet victory (lies from Vatutin and Rotmistrov), you even mentionned the soviet tanks blocked by their own anti-tank ditch, nice !
What have you been watching? The Russians themselves covered the entire battle of Kursk years ago (including Prokhorovka) and did an excellent job. They most definitely didn't paint it as a victory, but showed it for the slaughter it was. th-cam.com/video/y_bjuREfUbU/w-d-xo.html And the information here isn't from wikipedia (like our friend here, who lifted some bits from wikipedia verbatim) but comes from military archives.
@@atarkus8 "They most definitely didn't paint it as a victory"
They did, Vatutin and Rotmistrov lies to avoid Stalin anger, that's it. Yeah of course some Russians now say the truth, but there are still lies and propaganda from soviet era regarding this battle.
There are also nazi lis and propaganda that people still believe today (like polish cavalry charging german tanks)
@@atarkus8 There are still some people in the comments who don't believe the truth dude
Always keep in mind that, on a scale of 1 to 10, I feel that your videos consistently rank 15 or better!
Thanks! I really appreciate it!
I did enjoy very much. Thanks.
I'm very happy to hear that, thank you!
great video
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
often overlooked is the fact that Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union split the invasion and divided Poland at the start of the war. later the added distance from that division slowed The Nazi armies from encircling Moscow giving the Soviets time to bring in the Siberian troops for their winter defense.
Guderian: With the failure of Zitadelle we have suffered a decisive defeat. The armoured formations, reformed and re-equipped with so much effort, had lost heavily in both men and equipment and would now be unemployable for a long time to come. It was problematical whether they could be rehabilitated in time to defend the Eastern Front ... Needless to say the [Soviets] exploited their victory to the full. There were to be no more periods of quiet on the Eastern Front. From now on, the enemy was in undisputed possession of the initiative. Cheers
Amazing video. The loss of Russian motorized personal and vehicles is amazing
If you look up the phrase “Telegraphing your Punch” it shows the battle of Kursk !