Great video. My dad was a B-17 pilot in WW II and was shot down on his third mission on which the target was the Hanover Rubber Works on July 26, 1943. Inbound to the target, his plane was hit by flak killing several of the crew behind the bomb bay. It's uncertain who was killed because the intercom was out to the rear of the aircraft. This damage slowed his plane but he made a successful run on the target, but he was shot down by a FW-190A flown by Senior Lieutenant Karl Decker who was shot down 4 days later by an unknown P-47 pilot (the Germans kept much better records than the Americans). Five of the crew were killed and five, including my dad managed to bail out. Everyone was captured immediately and my dad spent the rest of the war in Stalag Luft III and Stalag VIIA. The POWs in Stalag VIIA were freed by the advanced forces of Patton's 3rd Army in April 1945 The real reason for this post is to say that I conducted a several year research effort of both American and German records as well as testimonies of POW's that knew my dad while at Stalag Luft III. My dad was in the 388th BG, 3rd Air Division stationed out of the Knettishall base north of London. I located the grave sites of the 5 crew who were killed (both waist gunners, the radio operator, the ball turret gunner, and the navigator). My dad stayed in the Air Force after the war and as a kid I remember that several times my dad's B-17 tail gunner would drop by our house for a shore visit Also in the 1990's I located the co-pilot and bombardier who were still living. If I remember correctly the co-pilot was living in Orlando, Florida and the bombardier was living in Boston, MA. I was able to talk to both before they passed away. I had very detailed notes that reconstructed every location my dad was at after he was captured My dad was a B-47 and B-52 pilot. He was eventually promoted to Colonel and was assigned as the Commander of Clark AFB, The Philippines in 1968. At that time both I and my brother were Marine infantry officers in Vietnam (my brother was a Captain company commander when he was severely wounded in a firefight. I was a 2nd Lieutenant platoon commander operating about 5 miles from where he was wounded. At the end of my Vietnam tour in December 1969, I was able to get permission to catch a military flight from Vietnam to Manila where I got on a bus to Clark AFB, showed my military ID and I was in Class C uniform to get on base and found my way to base headquarters where my did worked. When I entered the office the secretary asked, "can I help you?". I had a Class C uniform that had been in a seabag for a year, I had a bone deep tan, and I had lost 25 pounds in Vietnam so I must have looked strange being in that office.] I replied, "Yes, I've just served a year in Vietnam and I only have two days before I have to return and I'm here to see my dad and mom. My dad is the base commander." She had the look that was a cross between being startled and in complete disbelief. Then she pressed the intercom and said calmly, "Colonel, you son is here to see you.". He canceled everything on his schedule and we went to his quarters and my mom nearly had a heart attack. We had a great time, but the next morning I had to get back to Manila to catch the flight back to Vietnam and rejoin my unit because I still had two weeks before I rotated back to the states. Unfortunately, I got a phone call from my mom that dad had died of a heart attack. She did not want me to fly to The Philippines to help her because her brother was a Major General fighter pilot in the Air Force and had been a double ACE in the Korean War and had flown F-4's about 90 missions into North Vietnam during the Vietnam war and he could cut through all the red tape and get his body and funeral expedited, which he did. I have a strong Christian faith and I don't believe much in coincidences. I don't know for sure, but I have the feeling that I was supposed to see him in The Philippines before I left Vietnam because it would be the last time I would see him. It was even more important to me because my brother had been severely wounded while my parents were en route to The Philippines and had been evacuated to Japan to stabilize him. My brother spent a year in the hospital recovering but remained in the Marine Corps and was promoted to Colonel before he retired. I stayed in the Marine Corps as well and had two more years in combat before I retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. I knowingly gave up the possibility of being promoted to Colonel in order to volunteer to serve two years in Latin America supporting the host nation's counter-insurgency operations. The job was dangerous but nearly as dangerous as Vietnam. In Latin America I did have 24/7 heavily armed guards at the house I rented on the outskirts of the capital, I had two bodyguards assign from 6 am to 6 pm. After that I was on my own. I also had an armored SUV (i.e., a fully bullet proof SUV with a native driver who knew ever street and alley in the city. He also left at 6 pm so when I had to somewhere at night, I had to drive myself but it was difficult to find the streets and addresses. It was a surreal experience and wouldn't have traded it for anything. A number of American servicemen were killed and my SUV was ambushed by urban guerrillas which killed my driver. I was always armed with at least a 9mm automatic pistol and snub nose .38 cal and in the SUV I always had an Uzi under my seat. It was an interesting career in the Marine Corps, but I don't think a year in Vietnam and two years in Latin America supporting counter-insurgency operations ever equaled the terror of being a crew member of a B-17 over Germany in 1943---especially on my dad's last mission over Germany. At least I had tactical options in ground combat. My dad could only maintain his position in the formation and hope he didn't get hit by flak or shot down by German fighters. Not only that but the air temperature inside the bombers was around 20 degrees below zero. As a Florida boy, I hate the cold. Anything below 70 degrees is unacceptable. Look, I lived 3 years in Newfoundland in the 1950's. I lived in North Dakota. I attended the Army's Artic Warfare Course in Alaska. And I've been on exercises where the temperature was in the mid 40's or low 50's with a driving rain and strong winds and thought I would die of hypothermia, I had a unit to lead and there is a part of your brain that just works through the difficulties. In fact in Officer Candidate School (OCS) the mental and physical stresses are so intense (or they used to be) that you often had to dig down deep into your mental and physical reserves that you didn't know you had to keep going. I don't know what's like today but in my day it was brutal. We started with 50 Candidates and graduated with less that half of that. My apologies for the long post, but the video brought back so many memories.
04:16 *EDIT* I misspoke! At the start of the "Air Divisions" segment, I said that the 2nd Air Division used a Square & the 3rd Used a Circle... I said it backwards! In reality, the *2nd Air Division used the circle & the 3rd used the Square.* Thanks! 👍
Yup! LOL Plus (can't remember if you mentioned this or not....) the 2nd Division was pretty much exclusively B-24s. The 3rd Division was mixed at first, but eventually its B-24 groups converted to B-17s. The 1st Division was always exclusively a Fortress division.
Just so you know.. The 8th AF is NOT a USAAF standard identification system.. ALL aircraft in the ETO followed the British RAF system. i.e.: the two letter squadron and single letter individual ship. It has NOTHING to do with the 8th AF and everything to do with being based in UK. You really need to read "BUZZ Numbers of USAF"
@@ILSRWY4 Well, yes and no. The use of 2-letter squadron codes and single letter a/c identification in the 8th--- and 9th-- is absolutely a continuation of the RAF system-- well stated that it had everything to do with being in the UK. But the remainder of the markings had little to do with RAF practice. By this I mean the use of colors, patterns, geometric symbols (usually with a non-RAF letter inside), etc. to identify groups, wings, divisions, etc. RAF Bomber Command had few, if any, additional markings, as their raids were in the dark where they would be invisible anyway. Only when they began daylight raids late in the war did they begin to use colors applied to tails on Lancs, etc. But the size of the USAAF bomber formations dictated a highly visible system that simply didn't apply to the RAF realities as the war went on. Same became true for the fighter groups, as one needed to tell "little friend" from foe. You can't read those code letters from any distance reliably. Look at a B-17/B-24 in early 1943-- as you say, it uses pretty much exactly the same system as the RAF and for the reasons you state. But by mid-1944 (earlier for some), they have gone beyond the RAF system. In fact, some bomb groups/squadrons that arrived later flew sans the letter codes until war's end--there was no reason to apply them at that point. But the tail and color codes were applied in most cases.
My father enlisted in the Army Air Corps (1942), age 18, and served as a gunner and radio operator on B-17s. He was assigned to the 8th Air Force in England and flew 35 combat missions over Europe. Including one shown as "SECRET" on his papers. According to him, later while watching “12 O’clock High” on TV, he thought that it was very well done and he liked the show. He did say that instead of the large letter “A” in the show their planes carried a large letter “P” there. The records for many crew members were lost during a fire at Fort Benjamin Harrison. His brother, age 20, was a Navy aviator flying in the Pacific area: his plane was shot down . The bad news was wired to the family, who were surprised three months later when he walked in the front door in his Navy uniform. My father had left the service at the end of the war and worked as a TV/Radio engineer. He was called back to duty for the Korean conflict but didn’t have to deploy; and stayed with the new US Air Force. He retired in 1968 after 26 years of active duty and died in 1976. His brother also passed in 2005. Both brothers are buried at Arlington National Cemetery. Regards
Thank you for your families honorable service. None of us living today, really have any idea of how much we owe those people who served and sacrificed some much for others.
@@bobrivett7645 My father, John A Martin, was like that also (487th BG). He never in 20 plus years talked about missions. The only event from that time was: “The crew went to a local zoo on a leave day. They were surprised to see monkeys in the cages. Some of the crew had alcoholic beverages with them. They spent quite a bit of time in getting the monkeys drunk!” Thanks for providing wonderful and impressive info dump. It is very hard to find when one needs it! I have always been grateful to have had those years to share. Regards
Fun fact about the paint. While yes, painting the bombers did add weight, something they didnt expect is not painting them added drag. The paint, ironically, smoothed out the surface of the plane, reducing drag to the point where I *think* painting the aircraft ended up being slightly more fuel efficient than not painting them. So all not painting them really did in the end was save production time.
Fun fact about the Eighth Air Force. Some years ago while in Savannah, I went to the Eighth Air museum at Pooler. There was an older woman who was the greeter as you entered. Being a bit younger than her, she asked if I had a relative in the Eighth. I replied that I was in the Eighth. With that she gave me a look of what are you talking about. The answer is that during Viet Nam I was stationed on Guam in SAC. That was 1969-70. When I got to Guam we were under 15th Air, as I recall. Later on we had a change of command. And we were under Eighth Air Force.
Cool, never took the time or effort to look in to the USAAF markings, USN & USMC yes but they're pretty plain markings anyhow, not all but most. Thank you for the explanation and video.😅
I used to know a guy who in the pacific from 1943 to 1949. He flew the navy version of the B-24 (PBY something) he hunted jap subs, never saw a sub, but he did bomb some small surface ships a couple times. He also flew missions to cover the nationalists Chinese forces when they evacuated main land for Formosa or Twian Island. He flew small multi engine an single aircraft up till he was 81yos, when he had a stroke. Guy was very interesting we talked about pearl harbor a lot, they were still rebuilding, raising, etc. When he arrived in Pearl in 1943. He's gone now about 10 years or so. Gald I got to know him.
thank you for this interesting video. as masters of air comes out at the end of next month, this is very interesting to know. next i'll watch the video about the german markings as this is something i've been wondering about since i started watching "The battle of britain" at the age of 7, over 20 years ago.
I had the opportunity to visit the 8th Airforce museum in Pooler GA. If you ever get the chance to go you should. It is a fantastic museum for history buffs and modelers alike. There are so many personal artifacts donated by the families of the crews its really something. They have a hall where they have scale displays of all the B17 and B24 tail markings I took pictures of all of them and I'd gladly email them to you if you want them. Great job on the research you put in.
I was one of the landscape installation superintendents for the Mighty 8th museum. I never saw crews work so quietly, reverently, and with perfectionist tendencies like I never saw before or after
Great video. This helped answered one of my longtime questions. There is however an error in video. At 4:19 square is 2nd Division and circle is 3rd Division. Then graphic at 4:36 swaps the circle and square for the 2nd Division and 3rd Division. The same error occurs again at 4:50.
4:21)He has the square marking the 2nd AD and the circle marking the 3rd AD. 4:35)Here and elsewhere, he has the circle marking the 2nd AD and the square on a 3rd AD plane.
I did not serve with the 8th Air Force, but I did serve with the 92nd Bomb Wing at Fairchild AFB, we had the B-62 and KC-135 on fifteen minute ground alert loaded with nuclear weapons and fuel. Thankfully we never had to launch those B-52s in anger as we would not be here today. I served from 1977 to 1982 with the 92nd Security Police Squadron protecting the base. Peace was our Profession!
I was supersized; this was a very helpful video. Thank you. My sister went to Wycombe Abby school that was used as the headquarters of the USAAF Eighth Air Force . As a thank you they built the school chapel.
Like a lot of people my age I built a B-17 model kit as a kid. It had the triangle-U tail markings. Some years later I got married and my father in law flew as a bombardier in, sure enough, the 457th Heavy Bombardment Group. Shot down over Schweinfurt on his 23rd mission and became a POW.
Great content for anyone delving into european air combat! Ive been into that history for ages but this is the first time ive learned about aircraft markings
Hello. I enjoyed the presentation of the markings very much. I was wondering if you also have the same info on the 15th Air Force. My father was a ball turret gunner stationed in Italy. I have built the B-17 model, and want to get the colror scheme and markings correct for one of his favorite planes. Thanks, George B
Awesome video! I noticed the image for a 364th FG P-51 is a 357th FG plane. While looking at images of 364th FG P-51 it seems like they use sort of black and white stripes on the nose.
Love it, Hank! Last year I built a 1/48 B-17G for my wife : aluminum finish, 384th BG “triangle-L,” with her name and a custom pinup picture of her on the nose (she’s very pinup-worthy, not that I’m bragging or anything). I also used her initials for the ID letter code and her 6-digit birth date for the tail number.
Great video that explains the 8th's markings very clearly. Only one thing I noticed. On the sheet for 1st AD tail markings, the 401st BG says red diagonal stripe. 401st had a yellow diagonal stripe (outlined in black on NMF B-17s). Only noticed it as the 401st are kind of my group after years of research.
Excellent Job! I was glad to see the picture of the Square A- 94th BG plane on display at the Castle Air Museum! One other squadron identifier was the cowling colors. For example in the 94th BG the 331st squadron had blue cowlings, the 332nd squadron (the plane in the picture) has red cowlings, the 333rd squadron (my Dad's) had green cowlings and the 410th had yellow cowlings. I'm sure the ground crews appreciated all the painting they had to do when an aircraft came into the Group! One other tidbit of useless knowledge; Anyone from Richland WA. knows the high school mascot are the "Bombers" and have atomic bomb clouds on their shirts! nice but the Bomber they represent is "Days Pay". The workers at the Boeing plant wanted to show their war effort in a more demonstrative manner, so the entire plant donated one days pay and bought their own B-17 which they built, then donated it to the war effort. A likeness of "Days Pay" is painted on the gym at Richland HS with its 94th BG markings.
Once again, great job on your work. I will point out regarding the whole bomber painted olive drab. I read a report reason they stopped painting the whole bomber was because coast, timing and weight (as you said), but it was also thought all that drag was a issue too. They did a study on this and found out that drag was less on fully painted bomber. Not too much but enough to tell the difference.
USAAF squadron code are reminiscent of RAF squadron codes, and the USAAF starts using them not long after they've been working alongside the RAF. This feels like it's not a coincidence to me. Also, I'm pretty sure the chaos of the letter-code-to-squadron is deliberate, as a way to make it harder for the enemy to gather intel. For the pilots in the air it wouldn't matter, because you'd only ever need to know a handful - your own squadron's, the escort fighters', and the other squadrons in your group. Seeing anything else boiled down to "either he's in the wrong spot, or I am." So you might as well make it as random as possible.
@davydatwood3158 It absolutely was not a coincidence. The USAAF codes followed the established RAF practice when aircraft began arriving in England. None of the other American air forces used this unique system of squadron identification, though of course they had other systems for this purpose (often plane-in-group numbers and such in the MTO and PTO).
Great video. My grandfather was in the mighty 8th I have a foot locker full of stuff he never really talked about the war so a lot of the stuff I have no clue about. There are some before and after photos of like Berlin and other cities. The mighty 8th took care of business for sure and did an amazing job god bless them
Yep, it's sometimes confusing, even for the editor! For example at 08:15 the example shows the 2nd Air Wing letters in CIRCLES, yet at 4:30 the 2nd is denoted by SQUARES. This of course has a knock on effect that the 3rd wing is also mis-shapped for want of a better description. Have I misread this? Interesting and informative and I can understand the error if it is indeed an error!
Great video. My dad was a B-24 pilot in the 445th 702nd (circle F, WV-T). Keep the videos coming. Very nice format. We really enjoy your content. If you’re ever in Fort Worth give us a yell will you show you some old airplanes!
I really enjoyed this. Is there a consolidated reference somewhere for US army Air Force markings (ww2 and immediate post war?). I’m trying to research a post war P-47 and looking for references
Hank great video my great uncle was part of yhe 379th BG stationed out of Kimbolton. Unfortunately he was shot down and was KIA at the end of the war. But thank you for the info on the markings for bombers and fighter of the mighty 8th
Wow__ that’s a lot of research, nice job ! So when a plane went down I wonder is this how they identified it . I never knew how much they mixed groups and squandrons etc .
Your entry thumbnail (silver and red B-17s triangle L) is one of many from an often seen photo shoot. These are 381st Group planes out of Ridgewell - an older friend of mine was bombardier Frank Kleinwechter who was on “Sleepy Time Gal” one of the planes in the shoot.
Only thing I gathered from this; my old (100 ARW) at RAF Mildenhall was part of 3rd air division. This unit was originally at RAF Thorpe Abbots, but that base has been closed for many decades.
The meatball looks very close to the RAF roundel of WWI. It is interesting to note in the Pacific theatre the RAAF & the RNZAF dropped the red dot and just like the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm adopted the US bars either side of the Blue and White roundel for ease of identification!
Great video Hank. About those Unknown entries in one of your spreadsheets, can you not get that information from the files in the war department in Washington or have they all been destroyed? Just saying ...
It seems to me that the 8thAF got the idea for the fuselage code system from the RAF, which were using them from the very beginning of the war - 1939, or even earlier.
Due to my interest in the 8th Air Force, I was already acquainted with these markings. I recently saw your video on the Luftwaffe markings. I think the US markings are easier to understand.
Glad.I found your video. I have always been wanting to know what all the letters and symbols meant on the aircraft sides .A fun fact the 4th Fighter Group is still around today. It is assigned to Seymour Johnson AFB in Goldsboro NC..It is now the 4th Fighter Wing. It still has the 334th,335th, and 336th group s assigned. They currently fly the F15E Strike Eagle.
I'm reminded of a book I read which stated that U-Boats were not numbered consecutively to confuse the allies as to how many the Germans actually had. Ditto for Soviet hull numbers which changed periodically - it made tracking of orders of battle a bit more confusing.
For those having trouble with all this....its not really that tough once you work with it for a while....and if you have a good reference....Get yourself a copy of Dana Bell's Air Force Colors vol. 2. A couple illustration errors but its all you need to know in one thin, heavily illustrated volume. And written by a guy who has forgotten more about this stuff than most people will ever know, so you get his explanation of a lot of stuff too. The older Roger Freeman book, The Mighty Eighth is also excellent. Fewer illustrations but tons of great info.
One thing you missed -- the first digit of the ID number is the last number of the year in which the contract was signed to build or accept the plane. Thus, if the first number is 1, the plane is a 1941 build. 4 would be 1944. This was important in that planes were given numerous modifications, but it might be necessary to know what series the base airframe was when either ordering parts, hunting for the right edition of the maintenance manuals, or when scavenging from the boneyard.
Very interesting and informative as always Hank. There’s a bit of similarity to Civil War period federal corps markings. I wonder if there’s any correlation between the two.
Re: Roundels - don't forget the short lived Operation Torch roundel from November 42 to early 43, applied only to the aircraft participating in the Allied landings of French North Africa. Similar to the roundel from June 42 - 43 but with an additional yellow circle outline.
Great vid to cover the basics, you seem to have mixed up the 364th FG with the 364th FS of the 357th Fg. The 364th FG didn't have red/yellow checks, they had a couple of different white based nose markings.
Good information! Thanks for the effort. But under the heading of the never satisfied, how about the assembly aircraft and there special paint jobs, used for the groups to form up after take off.
When the US Air Force stopped painting their Europe-based aircraft olive drab, surely they didn't go to the bother of stripping the old paint off their current aircraft, or did they? As I understand it the paint added weight, however it also helped to fill in rivet holes and seam-lines between panels, effectively making the aircraft more aerodynamic thus more fuel efficient and increasing the cruising speed? Steve Kolarik has commented on this also, can anyone elucidate further please?
@@SpruesNBrews I suppose that all you really needed to remember were the markings of the individual Squadron or Group that you belonged to so that you knew who to stick with.
@@whhsfordian That's exactly it--- no one needed to recite this whole thing-- and as a modeler, no one ever needs to remember it all either-- just understand that there was a system, what the basic components of that system were, and then have the proper, accurate resources available to look up the specifics for the aircraft and time period one is wanting to model. In their situation, you were never working with ALL the groups and it wasn't necessary to memorize them, per se. Don't forget-- with all these letters and symbols, there was also a system involving colors, which frankly was FAR more effective than the alpha-numeric stuff. You can see a big red tail or a checkered cowl--or even the basic geometric shapes that defined the Air Divisions-- or whatever at a much greater distance than you can make out an SX or WA or whatever on the side of a fuselage! Can't remember if it was mentioned or not, but they also occasionally used a "letter of the day" applied to the side of heavy bombers to prevent the Germans from inserting captured aircraft into an Allied formation. The "wolf" would join the formation, ascertain the direction, altitude, etc. of the formation and pass it along to the Flak batteries and fighters, then quietly slip out of formation. So you will sometimes see a random "X" or something else applied to the fuselages that would change regularly. Think of it as an aerial sign and countersign....
That would explain why Memphis Belle and Diamond Lil don't have the tail markings since they were early in the war. Now I'll have to check and see what Thunderbird, Texas Raiders. Chucky. Sentimental Journey, Aluminum Overcast, 909 and Liberty Bell markings are.
I'm trying to find the color codes for my late Great-Uncles fighter in WW2, he flew with the 355FG- 357FS. I already know everything else about his aircraft but that
I heard the following story: The first SEAL Team was SEAL Team One. The second SEAL Team was SEAL Team Two. The third SEAL Team was SEAL Team Six. The original commander of SEAL Team Six said he named his team Six because he wanted the Russians wondering where Teams 3, 4, and 5 were. I always wondered if that explains the non sequential numbers for Groups and Squadrons.
No, the groups were generally formed in order at the beginning of the war, As the Air Force expanded there was a jump in the group numbers. Also before some groups were deployed overseas some experienced crews were moved to form a cadre of a new group which is why many groups will have three squadrons with consecutive numbers, but the fourth squadron will have a much higher number. How much higher will be determined by when exactly the fourth squadron was reformed. Some early arriving groups entered combat with only three squadrons before getting their fourth. Not mentioned is that before the Eighth Air force really expanded there were just six groups, no wings and no Air Divisions. Also when the Allies invaded North Africa various Fighter Groups, and one Bomb Group was detached from the Eighth Air Force, the 97th BG which flew the first 8AF mission, and reassigned to the Twelfth and Fifteenth Air Forces based in North Africa. No Groups shared a number, remember you had Fighter Groups Bomb Groups( Heavy, Medium, and Light), Troop Carrier Groups, and Photographic Groups. As far as I am aware there were no groups numbered from 101st to 300rd.
It appears the model bomber kits of the sixties had the markings all mixed up and incorrect with the decals they supplied. Late model US markings, no markings for the tail except for the plane number and only two letters on the side and recommended olive drab paint job top with light grey underside.
I have been researching a particular aircraft that my daughters grandpa piloted back in WW2. I had a pic of him waving from the side of the plane (complete with nose art) and a pic while flying that had the unit insignia visible. I was able to narrow things down all the way to his individual B17 using this info. I'm planning on trying to build that aircraft in the future to give to her. Could you perhaps point me towards additional resources for historical info? (And perhaps somewhere that I could order custom decals?) I tried making this an email or DM but couldnt figure out how to make that happen.
Like to see more of the mighty 8th Air Force. My step father in law flew with the flying circus B 24 Liberator. The plane was lost over England lost one crew member and the pilot I believe. Everyone else bailed out OK. He lived to a good old age of 81 but would never fly again.
The squadron and aircraft letter codes were based on the RAF's practices. In the RAF letter codes were occasionally changed so you needs to be careful when interpreting these markings. I'm not aware if this also happened to the USAAF squadron codes.
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Great video. My dad was a B-17 pilot in WW II and was shot down on his third mission on which the target was the Hanover Rubber Works on July 26, 1943. Inbound to the target, his plane was hit by flak killing several of the crew behind the bomb bay. It's uncertain who was killed because the intercom was out to the rear of the aircraft. This damage slowed his plane but he made a successful run on the target, but he was shot down by a FW-190A flown by Senior Lieutenant Karl Decker who was shot down 4 days later by an unknown P-47 pilot (the Germans kept much better records than the Americans). Five of the crew were killed and five, including my dad managed to bail out. Everyone was captured immediately and my dad spent the rest of the war in Stalag Luft III and Stalag VIIA. The POWs in Stalag VIIA were freed by the advanced forces of Patton's 3rd Army in April 1945
The real reason for this post is to say that I conducted a several year research effort of both American and German records as well as testimonies of POW's that knew my dad while at Stalag Luft III.
My dad was in the 388th BG, 3rd Air Division stationed out of the Knettishall base north of London. I located the grave sites of the 5 crew who were killed (both waist gunners, the radio operator, the ball turret gunner, and the navigator). My dad stayed in the Air Force after the war and as a kid I remember that several times my dad's B-17 tail gunner would drop by our house for a shore visit Also in the 1990's I located the co-pilot and bombardier who were still living. If I remember correctly the co-pilot was living in Orlando, Florida and the bombardier was living in Boston, MA. I was able to talk to both before they passed away. I had very detailed notes that reconstructed every location my dad was at after he was captured
My dad was a B-47 and B-52 pilot. He was eventually promoted to Colonel and was assigned as the Commander of Clark AFB, The Philippines in 1968. At that time both I and my brother were Marine infantry officers in Vietnam (my brother was a Captain company commander when he was severely wounded in a firefight. I was a 2nd Lieutenant platoon commander operating about 5 miles from where he was wounded.
At the end of my Vietnam tour in December 1969, I was able to get permission to catch a military flight from Vietnam to Manila where I got on a bus to Clark AFB, showed my military ID and I was in Class C uniform to get on base and found my way to base headquarters where my did worked. When I entered the office the secretary asked, "can I help you?". I had a Class C uniform that had been in a seabag for a year, I had a bone deep tan, and I had lost 25 pounds in Vietnam so I must have looked strange being in that office.]
I replied, "Yes, I've just served a year in Vietnam and I only have two days before I have to return and I'm here to see my dad and mom. My dad is the base commander." She had the look that was a cross between being startled and in complete disbelief. Then she pressed the intercom and said calmly, "Colonel, you son is here to see you.". He canceled everything on his schedule and we went to his quarters and my mom nearly had a heart attack. We had a great time, but the next morning I had to get back to Manila to catch the flight back to Vietnam and rejoin my unit because I still had two weeks before I rotated back to the states.
Unfortunately, I got a phone call from my mom that dad had died of a heart attack. She did not want me to fly to The Philippines to help her because her brother was a Major General fighter pilot in the Air Force and had been a double ACE in the Korean War and had flown F-4's about 90 missions into North Vietnam during the Vietnam war and he could cut through all the red tape and get his body and funeral expedited, which he did.
I have a strong Christian faith and I don't believe much in coincidences. I don't know for sure, but I have the feeling that I was supposed to see him in The Philippines before I left Vietnam because it would be the last time I would see him. It was even more important to me because my brother had been severely wounded while my parents were en route to The Philippines and had been evacuated to Japan to stabilize him. My brother spent a year in the hospital recovering but remained in the Marine Corps and was promoted to Colonel before he retired.
I stayed in the Marine Corps as well and had two more years in combat before I retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. I knowingly gave up the possibility of being promoted to Colonel in order to volunteer to serve two years in Latin America supporting the host nation's counter-insurgency operations. The job was dangerous but nearly as dangerous as Vietnam. In Latin America I did have 24/7 heavily armed guards at the house I rented on the outskirts of the capital, I had two bodyguards assign from 6 am to 6 pm. After that I was on my own. I also had an armored SUV (i.e., a fully bullet proof SUV with a native driver who knew ever street and alley in the city. He also left at 6 pm so when I had to somewhere at night, I had to drive myself but it was difficult to find the streets and addresses.
It was a surreal experience and wouldn't have traded it for anything. A number of American servicemen were killed and my SUV was ambushed by urban guerrillas which killed my driver. I was always armed with at least a 9mm automatic pistol and snub nose .38 cal and in the SUV I always had an Uzi under my seat.
It was an interesting career in the Marine Corps, but I don't think a year in Vietnam and two years in Latin America supporting counter-insurgency operations ever equaled the terror of being a crew member of a B-17 over Germany in 1943---especially on my dad's last mission over Germany. At least I had tactical options in ground combat. My dad could only maintain his position in the formation and hope he didn't get hit by flak or shot down by German fighters. Not only that but the air temperature inside the bombers was around 20 degrees below zero.
As a Florida boy, I hate the cold. Anything below 70 degrees is unacceptable. Look, I lived 3 years in Newfoundland in the 1950's. I lived in North Dakota. I attended the Army's Artic Warfare Course in Alaska. And I've been on exercises where the temperature was in the mid 40's or low 50's with a driving rain and strong winds and thought I would die of hypothermia, I had a unit to lead and there is a part of your brain that just works through the difficulties. In fact in Officer Candidate School (OCS) the mental and physical stresses are so intense (or they used to be) that you often had to dig down deep into your mental and physical reserves that you didn't know you had to keep going. I don't know what's like today but in my day it was brutal. We started with 50 Candidates and graduated with less that half of that.
My apologies for the long post, but the video brought back so many memories.
Semper Fi. And honor and thank to your family. You all sound hard core.
04:16 *EDIT* I misspoke! At the start of the "Air Divisions" segment, I said that the 2nd Air Division used a Square & the 3rd Used a Circle... I said it backwards! In reality, the *2nd Air Division used the circle & the 3rd used the Square.* Thanks! 👍
Yup! LOL Plus (can't remember if you mentioned this or not....) the 2nd Division was pretty much exclusively B-24s. The 3rd Division was mixed at first, but eventually its B-24 groups converted to B-17s. The 1st Division was always exclusively a Fortress division.
Just so you know.. The 8th AF is NOT a USAAF standard identification system.. ALL aircraft in the ETO followed the British RAF system. i.e.: the two letter squadron and single letter individual ship. It has NOTHING to do with the 8th AF and everything to do with being based in UK. You really need to read "BUZZ Numbers of USAF"
@@ILSRWY4 Well, yes and no. The use of 2-letter squadron codes and single letter a/c identification in the 8th--- and 9th-- is absolutely a continuation of the RAF system-- well stated that it had everything to do with being in the UK. But the remainder of the markings had little to do with RAF practice. By this I mean the use of colors, patterns, geometric symbols (usually with a non-RAF letter inside), etc. to identify groups, wings, divisions, etc. RAF Bomber Command had few, if any, additional markings, as their raids were in the dark where they would be invisible anyway. Only when they began daylight raids late in the war did they begin to use colors applied to tails on Lancs, etc. But the size of the USAAF bomber formations dictated a highly visible system that simply didn't apply to the RAF realities as the war went on. Same became true for the fighter groups, as one needed to tell "little friend" from foe. You can't read those code letters from any distance reliably. Look at a B-17/B-24 in early 1943-- as you say, it uses pretty much exactly the same system as the RAF and for the reasons you state. But by mid-1944 (earlier for some), they have gone beyond the RAF system. In fact, some bomb groups/squadrons that arrived later flew sans the letter codes until war's end--there was no reason to apply them at that point. But the tail and color codes were applied in most cases.
My father enlisted in the Army Air Corps (1942), age 18, and served as a gunner and radio operator on B-17s. He was assigned to the 8th Air Force in England and flew 35 combat missions over Europe. Including one shown as "SECRET" on his papers.
According to him, later while watching “12 O’clock High” on TV, he thought that it was very well done and he liked the show. He did say that instead of the large letter “A” in the show their planes carried a large letter “P” there. The records for many crew members were lost during a fire at Fort Benjamin Harrison.
His brother, age 20, was a Navy aviator flying in the Pacific area: his plane was shot down . The bad news was wired to the family, who were surprised three months later when he walked in the front door in his Navy uniform.
My father had left the service at the end of the war and worked as a TV/Radio engineer. He was called back to duty for the Korean conflict but didn’t have to deploy; and stayed with the new US Air Force. He retired in 1968 after 26 years of active duty and died in 1976. His brother also passed in 2005.
Both brothers are buried at Arlington National Cemetery.
Regards
Thank you for your families honorable service. None of us living today, really have any idea of how much we owe those people who served and sacrificed some much for others.
@@bobrivett7645 My father, John A Martin, was like that also (487th BG). He never in 20 plus years talked about missions. The only event from that time was:
“The crew went to a local zoo on a leave day. They were surprised to see monkeys in the cages. Some of the crew had alcoholic beverages with them. They spent quite a bit of time in getting the monkeys drunk!”
Thanks for providing wonderful and impressive info dump. It is very hard to find when one needs it!
I have always been grateful to have had those years to share.
Regards
Fun fact about the paint. While yes, painting the bombers did add weight, something they didnt expect is not painting them added drag. The paint, ironically, smoothed out the surface of the plane, reducing drag to the point where I *think* painting the aircraft ended up being slightly more fuel efficient than not painting them. So all not painting them really did in the end was save production time.
Sentimental Journey was silver when I first met her. Now she has been repainted with, I think, 8th paint job.
Fun fact about the Eighth Air Force. Some years ago while in Savannah, I went to the Eighth Air museum at Pooler. There was an older woman who was the greeter as you entered. Being a bit younger than her, she asked if I had a relative in the Eighth. I replied that I was in the Eighth. With that she gave me a look of what are you talking about. The answer is that during Viet Nam
I was stationed on Guam in SAC. That was 1969-70. When I got to Guam we were under 15th Air, as I recall. Later on we had a change of command. And we were under Eighth Air Force.
my dad was an aircraft mechanic at Polebrook airfield. Home of the 351st with the Triangle J markings. I wish I had talked with him about it then.
Marvelous. Thank you.
Thank you for the info!!! And all the work you put into it! 👍
Such great information, thank you
Cool, never took the time or effort to look in to the USAAF markings, USN & USMC yes but they're pretty plain markings anyhow, not all but most.
Thank you for the explanation and video.😅
Thank you or this video. I'll definitely save this as a valuable reference.
Great work, thanks
I met a WWII veteran last month he was a B-17 belly gunner in the Mighty 8! What a hero!
Wow!!
I used to know a guy who in the pacific from 1943 to 1949. He flew the navy version of the B-24 (PBY something) he hunted jap subs, never saw a sub, but he did bomb some small surface ships a couple times. He also flew missions to cover the nationalists Chinese forces when they evacuated main land for Formosa or Twian Island. He flew small multi engine an single aircraft up till he was 81yos, when he had a stroke. Guy was very interesting we talked about pearl harbor a lot, they were still rebuilding, raising, etc. When he arrived in Pearl in 1943. He's gone now about 10 years or so. Gald I got to know him.
thank you for this interesting video. as masters of air comes out at the end of next month, this is very interesting to know. next i'll watch the video about the german markings as this is something i've been wondering about since i started watching "The battle of britain" at the age of 7, over 20 years ago.
Outstanding and thank you!! With Masters now airing this will help immensely !
I'm so glad to hear it! Thanks for watching!
364 FG were based at RAF Honington in Suffolk.
352 FG were based at RAF Bodney in Suffolk.
78 FG were based at RAF Duxford in Cambridge.
I had the opportunity to visit the 8th Airforce museum in Pooler GA. If you ever get the chance to go you should. It is a fantastic museum for history buffs and modelers alike. There are so many personal artifacts donated by the families of the crews its really something. They have a hall where they have scale displays of all the B17 and B24 tail markings I took pictures of all of them and I'd gladly email them to you if you want them. Great job on the research you put in.
You must tell the B-17 Charly brown story.
I put the red star & bars on my blue guitar body.
Thanks for sharing.
I was one of the landscape installation superintendents for the Mighty 8th museum. I never saw crews work so quietly, reverently, and with perfectionist tendencies like I never saw before or after
Great video. This helped answered one of my longtime questions. There is however an error in video. At 4:19 square is 2nd Division and circle is 3rd Division. Then graphic at 4:36 swaps the circle and square for the 2nd Division and 3rd Division. The same error occurs again at 4:50.
4:21)He has the square marking the 2nd AD and the circle marking the 3rd AD.
4:35)Here and elsewhere, he has the circle marking the 2nd AD and the square on a 3rd AD plane.
I did not serve with the 8th Air Force, but I did serve with the 92nd Bomb Wing at Fairchild AFB, we had the B-62 and KC-135 on fifteen minute ground alert loaded with nuclear weapons and fuel. Thankfully we never had to launch those B-52s in anger as we would not be here today. I served from 1977 to 1982 with the 92nd Security Police Squadron protecting the base. Peace was our Profession!
...my dad was with the 385th BG in Great Ashfield from mid 1944 through the end of the war...
My optometrist was a "flying" sgt with 384 BG out of Kettering. Good man, good friend. I miss him.
Leo streitfeld?
@@loyst1
Marvin Ziesk
Nice video but there was so much information that i can't remember even half of it. As I said, great and interesting video, of course.
Haha I know - lots to cover!
I was supersized; this was a very helpful video. Thank you. My sister went to Wycombe Abby school that was used as the headquarters of the USAAF Eighth Air Force . As a thank you they built the school chapel.
Like a lot of people my age I built a B-17 model kit as a kid. It had the triangle-U tail markings. Some years later I got married and my father in law flew as a bombardier in, sure enough, the 457th Heavy Bombardment Group. Shot down over Schweinfurt on his 23rd mission and became a POW.
I've built my fair of B-17 models as well! That's quite a story - thank you for sharing!
There is even more to the story: lead plane for D-Day and was liberated by Gen Patton from the Mooseburg POW camp.
Great content for anyone delving into european air combat! Ive been into that history for ages but this is the first time ive learned about aircraft markings
Hello. I enjoyed the presentation of the markings very much. I was wondering if you also have the same info on the 15th Air Force. My father was a ball turret gunner stationed in Italy. I have built the B-17 model, and want to get the colror scheme and markings correct for one of his favorite planes. Thanks,
George B
Awesome video! I noticed the image for a 364th FG P-51 is a 357th FG plane. While looking at images of 364th FG P-51 it seems like they use sort of black and white stripes on the nose.
You are correct....but it is actually blue and white stripe
Love it, Hank!
Last year I built a 1/48 B-17G for my wife : aluminum finish, 384th BG “triangle-L,” with her name and a custom pinup picture of her on the nose (she’s very pinup-worthy, not that I’m bragging or anything). I also used her initials for the ID letter code and her 6-digit birth date for the tail number.
Cool idea. :)
@@TheOrdomalleus666 She seems to like it. She had me hang it up in the front room!
I'd really love to see her..............the...the model....of course!
Great video that explains the 8th's markings very clearly. Only one thing I noticed. On the sheet for 1st AD tail markings, the 401st BG says red diagonal stripe. 401st had a yellow diagonal stripe (outlined in black on NMF B-17s). Only noticed it as the 401st are kind of my group after years of research.
Thanks for this info just from a historical perspective and modeling one as well.
Thanks for that info.👍
Thanks for watching! 👍
Excellent Job! I was glad to see the picture of the Square A- 94th BG plane on display at the Castle Air Museum! One other squadron identifier was the cowling colors. For example in the 94th BG the 331st squadron had blue cowlings, the 332nd squadron (the plane in the picture) has red cowlings, the 333rd squadron (my Dad's) had green cowlings and the 410th had yellow cowlings. I'm sure the ground crews appreciated all the painting they had to do when an aircraft came into the Group! One other tidbit of useless knowledge; Anyone from Richland WA. knows the high school mascot are the "Bombers" and have atomic bomb clouds on their shirts! nice but the Bomber they represent is "Days Pay". The workers at the Boeing plant wanted to show their war effort in a more demonstrative manner, so the entire plant donated one days pay and bought their own B-17 which they built, then donated it to the war effort. A likeness of "Days Pay" is painted on the gym at Richland HS with its 94th BG markings.
Very, very helpful! Thanks for the vid.
Glad to hear it - thanks!
Once again, great job on your work. I will point out regarding the whole bomber painted olive drab. I read a report reason they stopped painting the whole bomber was because coast, timing and weight (as you said), but it was also thought all that drag was a issue too. They did a study on this and found out that drag was less on fully painted bomber. Not too much but enough to tell the difference.
About 10 mph diff between painted and unpainted.
@@oscarsusan3834 something like that. It was not much
That was fabulous! Been wondering about this info for literally decades. Thanks for explaining a very complicated system. Really cool.
USAAF squadron code are reminiscent of RAF squadron codes, and the USAAF starts using them not long after they've been working alongside the RAF. This feels like it's not a coincidence to me.
Also, I'm pretty sure the chaos of the letter-code-to-squadron is deliberate, as a way to make it harder for the enemy to gather intel. For the pilots in the air it wouldn't matter, because you'd only ever need to know a handful - your own squadron's, the escort fighters', and the other squadrons in your group. Seeing anything else boiled down to "either he's in the wrong spot, or I am." So you might as well make it as random as possible.
@davydatwood3158 It absolutely was not a coincidence. The USAAF codes followed the established RAF practice when aircraft began arriving in England. None of the other American air forces used this unique system of squadron identification, though of course they had other systems for this purpose (often plane-in-group numbers and such in the MTO and PTO).
its not.. it had everything to do with being based in the UK and not with the individual air force.
Very interesting and useful.
Thank you! Glad to hear it!
Great video. My grandfather was in the mighty 8th I have a foot locker full of stuff he never really talked about the war so a lot of the stuff I have no clue about. There are some before and after photos of like Berlin and other cities. The mighty 8th took care of business for sure and did an amazing job god bless them
Thank you for your videos. I feel very lucky to get some history and models in the same video. I hope Capt. Miller found Pvt. Ryan!
Great video! Solves a "mystery." Thanks!
Perfect! Glad to hear it - thanks for watching 👍
If get time for some Navy/Marine Wings/Groups, that would be amazing. Like Pappy Boyington's Black Sheep. Regardless, excellent work and Thank You!
Hey Hank, I was thinking another cool video idea would be something about assembly ships. Those planes had some crazy paint schemes!!
Yep, it's sometimes confusing, even for the editor! For example at 08:15 the example shows the 2nd Air Wing letters in CIRCLES, yet at 4:30 the 2nd is denoted by SQUARES. This of course has a knock on effect that the 3rd wing is also mis-shapped for want of a better description. Have I misread this? Interesting and informative and I can understand the error if it is indeed an error!
Great video. My dad was a B-24 pilot in the 445th 702nd (circle F, WV-T). Keep the videos coming. Very nice format. We really enjoy your content. If you’re ever in Fort Worth give us a yell will you show you some old airplanes!
I really enjoyed this. Is there a consolidated reference somewhere for US army Air Force markings (ww2 and immediate post war?). I’m trying to research a post war P-47 and looking for references
Excellent video. thanks for the hard work of the research and the time spent to make the video that explains it so clearly.
Hank great video my great uncle was part of yhe 379th BG stationed out of Kimbolton. Unfortunately he was shot down and was KIA at the end of the war. But thank you for the info on the markings for bombers and fighter of the mighty 8th
Wow - that's incredible, I'm so sorry to hear about your loss, though. Thank you for sharing & take care my friend.
Thanks. My Dad was in Hq&Hq Sqdn, 8th USAAF.
Wow__ that’s a lot of research, nice job ! So when a plane went down I wonder is this how they identified it . I never knew how much they mixed groups and squandrons etc .
Your entry thumbnail (silver and red B-17s triangle L) is one of many from an often seen photo shoot. These are 381st Group planes out of Ridgewell - an older friend of mine was bombardier Frank Kleinwechter who was on “Sleepy Time Gal” one of the planes in the shoot.
Only thing I gathered from this; my old (100 ARW) at RAF Mildenhall was part of 3rd air division. This unit was originally at RAF Thorpe Abbots, but that base has been closed for many decades.
Another awesome video. Next time maybe you can do a video on Pacific combat aircraft.
On the list for sure! 👍
Can we have a video about RAF WWII markings as well? Would be great!
The meatball looks very close to the RAF roundel of WWI. It is interesting to note in the Pacific theatre the RAAF & the RNZAF dropped the red dot and just like the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm adopted the US bars either side of the Blue and White roundel for ease of identification!
Indeed! Pr they had a two-toned blue roundel in the China-Burma-India theatre
Excellent video. Thank you for you for posting.
Great video Hank. About those Unknown entries in one of your spreadsheets, can you not get that information from the files in the war department in Washington or have they all been destroyed? Just saying ...
Well done. A lot of work went into this one but you made it easy to understand. Thanks!
Thank you very much - I had a lot of fun with this one!
Wow Hank! A lot of research went into this video, and spreadsheets! Im going to watch the German one next. Thank you!
Great! I'm glad to hear it - thank you!
It seems to me that the 8thAF got the idea for the fuselage code system from the RAF, which were using them from the very beginning of the war - 1939, or even earlier.
Due to my interest in the 8th Air Force, I was already acquainted with these markings. I recently saw your video on the Luftwaffe markings. I think the US markings are easier to understand.
Just discovered this channel. Thank so much for the great content and for your hard work!
Thank you very much - welcome aboard!
This was a great video and well presented information. Great job!
Thank you! I appreciate it!
Glad.I found your video. I have always been wanting to know what all the letters and symbols meant on the aircraft sides .A fun fact the 4th Fighter Group is still around today. It is assigned to Seymour Johnson AFB in Goldsboro NC..It is now the 4th Fighter Wing. It still has the 334th,335th, and 336th group s assigned. They currently fly the F15E Strike Eagle.
I'm reminded of a book I read which stated that U-Boats were not numbered consecutively to confuse the allies as to how many the Germans actually had. Ditto for Soviet hull numbers which changed periodically - it made tracking of orders of battle a bit more confusing.
Great video! At 4:20 & 5:00 you show the 2nd and 3rd Divisions reversed.
Absolutely great presentation! Nice job and thanks for the helpful information!
Thank you - much appreciated!!
Great video well done, but the “registration” number are more like manufacturers serial numbers. Great video to show young Civil Air Patrol Cadet.
Damn that was informative. Cant even being to think of the hours you put into that. Great job as always
Thanks a million - I appreciate it!
Nice Job! Hate to nit pick but 364th FG was blue and white stripe.
Hey Hank, I'm currently reading 'Masters of the Air' by Donald L. Miller. It's about the 8th Air Force. Great book!
Great read! Love that book 👍
That's the book that is forming the basis of the new Tom Hanks mini series.
@kiwiruna9077 ... if it ever gets done. They've been talking about it for many years.
@@Chilly_Billydue for release later this year.
For those having trouble with all this....its not really that tough once you work with it for a while....and if you have a good reference....Get yourself a copy of Dana Bell's Air Force Colors vol. 2. A couple illustration errors but its all you need to know in one thin, heavily illustrated volume. And written by a guy who has forgotten more about this stuff than most people will ever know, so you get his explanation of a lot of stuff too. The older Roger Freeman book, The Mighty Eighth is also excellent. Fewer illustrations but tons of great info.
Great recs - thanks!
Great collection you have.
One thing you missed -- the first digit of the ID number is the last number of the year in which the contract was signed to build or accept the plane. Thus, if the first number is 1, the plane is a 1941 build. 4 would be 1944. This was important in that planes were given numerous modifications, but it might be necessary to know what series the base airframe was when either ordering parts, hunting for the right edition of the maintenance manuals, or when scavenging from the boneyard.
hello.very useful thing
Thanks for watching - I appreciate it!
Very interesting and informative as always Hank. There’s a bit of similarity to Civil War period federal corps markings. I wonder if there’s any correlation between the two.
Re: Roundels - don't forget the short lived Operation Torch roundel from November 42 to early 43, applied only to the aircraft participating in the Allied landings of French North Africa. Similar to the roundel from June 42 - 43 but with an additional yellow circle outline.
Great vid to cover the basics, you seem to have mixed up the 364th FG with the 364th FS of the 357th Fg. The 364th FG didn't have red/yellow checks, they had a couple of different white based nose markings.
Yup!!
Good information! Thanks for the effort. But under the heading of the never satisfied, how about the assembly aircraft and there special paint jobs, used for the groups to form up after take off.
Oh those assembly ships are beautiful! I'd love to do a video on them one of these days 👍
Thanks! Fascinating. Great share and a fabulous resource! ~__/)__*
When the US Air Force stopped painting their Europe-based aircraft olive drab, surely they didn't go to the bother of stripping the old paint off their current aircraft, or did they? As I understand it the paint added weight, however it also helped to fill in rivet holes and seam-lines between panels, effectively making the aircraft more aerodynamic thus more fuel efficient and increasing the cruising speed? Steve Kolarik has commented on this also, can anyone elucidate further please?
Great overview. How did they ever remember all this?!?!
Honestly... that's my biggest question! It's SO much! 😅
@@SpruesNBrews I suppose that all you really needed to remember were the markings of the individual Squadron or Group that you belonged to so that you knew who to stick with.
@@whhsfordian That's exactly it--- no one needed to recite this whole thing-- and as a modeler, no one ever needs to remember it all either-- just understand that there was a system, what the basic components of that system were, and then have the proper, accurate resources available to look up the specifics for the aircraft and time period one is wanting to model. In their situation, you were never working with ALL the groups and it wasn't necessary to memorize them, per se. Don't forget-- with all these letters and symbols, there was also a system involving colors, which frankly was FAR more effective than the alpha-numeric stuff. You can see a big red tail or a checkered cowl--or even the basic geometric shapes that defined the Air Divisions-- or whatever at a much greater distance than you can make out an SX or WA or whatever on the side of a fuselage! Can't remember if it was mentioned or not, but they also occasionally used a "letter of the day" applied to the side of heavy bombers to prevent the Germans from inserting captured aircraft into an Allied formation. The "wolf" would join the formation, ascertain the direction, altitude, etc. of the formation and pass it along to the Flak batteries and fighters, then quietly slip out of formation. So you will sometimes see a random "X" or something else applied to the fuselages that would change regularly. Think of it as an aerial sign and countersign....
Did air crews get a handbook or something to look up what division/wing/group/squadron they happened to come across during the flight?
IIRC, dad's division marks was sn "H" in a square...
2nd air division 489th BG 845th squadron fuselage code is S4
That would explain why Memphis Belle and Diamond Lil don't have the tail markings since they were early in the war. Now I'll have to check and see what Thunderbird, Texas Raiders. Chucky. Sentimental Journey, Aluminum Overcast, 909 and Liberty Bell markings are.
I'm trying to find the color codes for my late Great-Uncles fighter in WW2, he flew with the 355FG- 357FS. I already know everything else about his aircraft but that
Decades later the USAF number scheming is random and/or related to a legacy unit or organization
I heard the following story: The first SEAL Team was SEAL Team One. The second SEAL Team was SEAL Team Two. The third SEAL Team was SEAL Team Six. The original commander of SEAL Team Six said he named his team Six because he wanted the Russians wondering where Teams 3, 4, and 5 were.
I always wondered if that explains the non sequential numbers for Groups and Squadrons.
No, the groups were generally formed in order at the beginning of the war, As the Air Force expanded there was a jump in the group numbers. Also before some groups were deployed overseas some experienced crews were moved to form a cadre of a new group which is why many groups will have three squadrons with consecutive numbers, but the fourth squadron will have a much higher number. How much higher will be determined by when exactly the fourth squadron was reformed. Some early arriving groups entered combat with only three squadrons before getting their fourth. Not mentioned is that before the Eighth Air force really expanded there were just six groups, no wings and no Air Divisions. Also when the Allies invaded North Africa various Fighter Groups, and one Bomb Group was detached from the Eighth Air Force, the 97th BG which flew the first 8AF mission, and reassigned to the Twelfth and Fifteenth Air Forces based in North Africa. No Groups shared a number, remember you had Fighter Groups Bomb Groups( Heavy, Medium, and Light), Troop Carrier Groups, and Photographic Groups. As far as I am aware there were no groups numbered from 101st to 300rd.
It appears the model bomber kits of the sixties had the markings all mixed up and incorrect with the decals they supplied. Late model US markings, no markings for the tail except for the plane number and only two letters on the side and recommended olive drab paint job top with light grey underside.
How interesting
Thanks!
Try and get the book ,,the mighty eighth,, by roger freeman which explains it all clearly in colour
I've heard good things - thanks!
Thank you! This is nerd heaven.
Haha I'm so glad to hear it! 😅
What about the roundel with the yellow surround?
I have been researching a particular aircraft that my daughters grandpa piloted back in WW2.
I had a pic of him waving from the side of the plane (complete with nose art) and a pic while flying that had the unit insignia visible.
I was able to narrow things down all the way to his individual B17 using this info.
I'm planning on trying to build that aircraft in the future to give to her.
Could you perhaps point me towards additional resources for historical info? (And perhaps somewhere that I could order custom decals?)
I tried making this an email or DM but couldnt figure out how to make that happen.
Like to see more of the mighty 8th Air Force. My step father in law flew with the flying circus B 24 Liberator. The plane was lost over England lost one crew member and the pilot I believe. Everyone else bailed out OK. He lived to a good old age of 81 but would never fly again.
At 4:58, the 2nd and 3rd shapes are transposed.
Indeed! Good catch, I added that to the pinned comment 👍
Well done.
The squadron and aircraft letter codes were based on the RAF's practices. In the RAF letter codes were occasionally changed so you needs to be careful when interpreting these markings. I'm not aware if this also happened to the USAAF squadron codes.
correct. The 8th AF identification system has more to do with being based in UK than it does with being 8th AF.
Interesting! 🤔👍
Thank you!