Stephen Chorover - What's the Essence of Consciousness?
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Consciousness is what mental activity feels like, the private inner experience of sensation, thought and emotion. Watching a dramatic movie. Imagining your family’s future. Attending the funeral of a loved one. Consciousness is like nothing else. But what is consciousness, the essence of consciousness, at its most fundamental level?
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Stephen L. Chorover was a Professor of Psychology in the Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences at MIT.
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Closer To Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
I often do a quick Internet search to find out more about your speakers and their credentials. Your own web page on Chorover says he "is" Professor of Psychology at MIT, etc., but other sites tell me he died over 8 years ago!! It would be nice if you would provide more information in your video descriptions as to how old or recent your interviews are, especially because scientific discoveries are getting updated all the time (& I realize that the above video descriptions says he "was" a professor, but still...).
Ah, so he is giving the view from the other side.
A segment from 'Saved by the Light of the Buddha Within'...
My new understandings of what many call 'God -The Holy Spirit' - resulting from some of the extraordinary ongoing after-effects relating to my NDE...
Myoho-Renge-Kyo represents the identity of what some scientists are now referring to as the unified field of consciousnesses. In other words, it’s the essence of all existence and non-existence - the ultimate creative force behind planets, stars, nebulae, people, animals, trees, fish, birds, and all phenomena, manifest or latent. All matter and intelligence are simply waves or ripples manifesting to and from this core source. Consciousness (enlightenment) is itself the actual creator of everything that exists now, ever existed in the past, or will exist in the future - right down to the minutest particles of dust - each being an individual ripple or wave.
The big difference between chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo and most other conventional prayers is that instead of depending on a ‘middleman’ to connect us to our state of inner enlightenment, we’re able to do it ourselves. That’s because chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo allows us to tap directly into our enlightened state by way of this self-produced sound vibration. ‘Who or What Is God?’ If we compare the concept of God being a separate entity that is forever watching down on us, to the teachings of Nichiren, it makes more sense to me that the true omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence of what most people perceive to be God, is the fantastic state of enlightenment that exists within each of us. Some say that God is an entity that’s beyond physical matter - I think that the vast amount of information continuously being conveyed via electromagnetic waves in today’s world gives us proof of how an invisible state of God could indeed exist.
For example, it’s now widely known that specific data relayed by way of electromagnetic waves has the potential to help bring about extraordinary and powerful effects - including an instant global awareness of something or a mass emotional reaction. It’s also common knowledge that these invisible waves can easily be used to detonate a bomb or to enable NASA to control the movements of a robot as far away as the Moon or Mars - none of which is possible without a receiver to decode the information that’s being transmitted. Without the receiver, the data would remain impotent. In a very similar way, we need to have our own ‘receiver’ switched on so that we can activate a clear and precise understanding of our own life, all other life and what everything else in existence is.
Chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo each day helps us to achieve this because it allows us to reach the core of our enlightenment and keep it switched on. That’s because Myoho-Renge-Kyo represents the identity of what scientists now refer to as the unified field of consciousnesses. To break it down - Myoho represents the Law of manifestation and latency (Nature) and consists of two alternating states. For example, the state of Myo is where everything in life that’s not obvious to us exists - including our stored memories when we’re not thinking about them - our hidden potential and inner emotions whenever they’re dormant - our desires, our fears, our wisdom, happiness, karma - and more importantly, our enlightenment.
The other state, ho, is where everything in Life exists whenever it becomes evident to us, such as when a thought pops up from within our memory - whenever we experience or express our emotions - or whenever a good or bad cause manifests as an effect from our karma. When anything becomes apparent, it merely means that it’s come out of the state of Myo (dormancy/latency) and into a state of ho (manifestation). It’s the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness, being awake or asleep, or knowing and not knowing.
The second law - Renge - Ren meaning cause and ge meaning effect, governs and controls the functions of Myoho - these two laws of Myoho and Renge, not only function together simultaneously but also underlies all spiritual and physical existence.
The final and third part of the tri-combination - Kyo, is the Law that allows Myoho to integrate with Renge - or vice versa. It’s the great, invisible thread of energy that fuses and connects all Life and matter - as well as the past, present and future. It’s also sometimes termed the Universal Law of Communication - perhaps it could even be compared with the string theory that many scientists now suspect exists.
Just as the cells in our body, our thoughts, feelings and everything else is continually fluctuating within us - all that exists in the world around us and beyond is also in a constant state of flux - constantly controlled by these three fundamental laws. In fact, more things are going back and forth between the two states of Myo and ho in a single moment than it would ever be possible to calculate or describe. And it doesn’t matter how big or small, famous or trivial anything or anyone may appear to be, everything that’s ever existed in the past, exists now or will exist in the future, exists only because of the workings of the Laws ‘Myoho-Renge-Kyo’ - the basis of the four fundamental forces, and if they didn’t function, neither we nor anything else could go on existing. That’s because all forms of existence, including the seasons, day, night, birth, death and so on, are moving forward in an ongoing flow of continuation - rhythmically reverting back and forth between the two fundamental states of Myo and ho in absolute accordance with Renge - and by way of Kyo. Even stars are dying and being reborn under the workings of what the combination ‘Myoho-Renge-Kyo’ represents. Nam, or Namu - which mean the same thing, are vibrational passwords or keys that allow us to reach deep into our life and fuse with or become one with ‘Myoho-Renge-Kyo’.
On a more personal level, nothing ever happens by chance or coincidence, it’s the causes that we’ve made in our past, or are presently making, that determine how these laws function uniquely in each of our lives - as well as the environment from moment to moment. By facing east, in harmony with the direction that the Earth is spinning, and chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo for a minimum of, let’s say, ten minutes daily to start with, any of us can experience actual proof of its positive effects in our lives - even if it only makes us feel good on the inside, there will be a definite positive effect. That’s because we’re able to pierce through the thickest layers of our karma and activate our inherent Buddha Nature (our enlightened state). By so doing, we’re then able to bring forth the wisdom and good fortune that we need to challenge, overcome and change our adverse circumstances - turn them into positive ones - or manifest and gain even greater fulfilment in our daily lives from our accumulated good karma. This also allows us to bring forth the wisdom that can free us from the ignorance and stupidity that’s preventing us from accepting and being proud of the person that we indeed are - regardless of our race, colour, gender or sexuality. We’re also able to see and understand our circumstances and the environment far more clearly, as well as attract and connect with any needed external beneficial forces and situations. As I’ve already mentioned, everything is subject to the law of Cause and Effect - the ‘actual-proof-strength’ resulting from chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo always depends on our determination, sincerity and dedication.
For example, the levels of difference could be compared to making a sound on a piano, creating a melody, producing a great song, and so on. Something else that’s very important to always respect and acknowledge is that the Law (or if you prefer God) is in everyone and everything.
NB: There are frightening and disturbing sounds, and there are tranquil and relaxing sounds. It’s the emotional result of any noise or sound that can trigger off a mood or even instantly change one. When chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo each day, we are producing a sound vibration that’s the password to our true inner-self - this soon becomes apparent when you start reassessing your views on various things - such as your fears and desires etc. The best way to get the desired result when chanting is not to view things conventionally - rather than reaching out to an external source, we need to reach into our own lives and bring our needs and desires to fruition from within - including the good fortune and strength to achieve any help that we may need. Chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo also reaches out externally and draws us towards, or draws towards us, what we need to make us happy from our environment. For example, it helps us to be in the right place at the right time - to make better choices and decisions and so forth. We need to think of it as a seed within us that we’re watering and bringing sunshine to for it to grow, blossom and bring forth fruit or flowers. It’s also important to understand that everything we need in life, including the answer to every question and the potential to achieve every dream, already exists within us.
The key and mysterious aspect of consciousness is that, as Nagel puts it, 'there is something it is like' to be an experiencing subject.
Here Chorover seems to be suggesting that situations involving experiencing subjects sometimes have experiences and associated physical states which aren't ontologically or causally reducible to physical stimuli. He gives the example of stress causing physical symptoms in bodies beyond what can be accounted for by interacting with the physical environment.
But isn't that ignoring the fact that hormones like adrenaline will cause changes in the body which might cause different reactions to external inputs. He'd have to track back all the physical changes in a body caused by factors like hormones to discount the reducibility he doubts.
The apparent irreducibility of conscious experience is a prob for physicalists whose physical model is reductionist/emergent, but I don't think he's onto something by looking beyond neural correlation where the issue is in stark relief, to the incredibly complex and untrackable interactions between the body and the environment. Complexity isn't the same as irreducibility.
Very well put. We know that biological systems are fantastically complex and respond to stimuli in all sorts of different ways due to various chaotic systematic responses and feedback loops. We have physical models and explanations for many of those already. Meanwhile he has no actual evidence for any non-physical factors at play.
@@AMorgan57Very weird arguments. Evolution doesn't have a "goal", other than reactive change, most of which end up unsuccesful. The point about evolution is that if there is no change, than by definition the organism fails eventually, dies out and thus doesn't spread it's genes. The "goal" of an organism is to live long enough until it can procreate, and than in many cases die to make room for the next generation. There's no universal point to any of this. And there not being a point doesn't turn people into nihilists, because they're still born with ideas of individuality, love, hate, feelings of being hungry and wanting to eat, sleep, have sex, make something beautiful for the next generation, or de strot competing genes, etc... Everything is deterministic and reductionist, and you'll live your life just like you will having the delusion that everything isn't.
@@AMorgan57 Why bother? Because it is in our nature to do so. That’s all the reason we need.
On science suggesting the future should be entirely predictable. We know from mathematics, information theory and the physics of computation that there are physical limits to the computational power of any physical system. Many physical phenomena are irreducibly complex. That means an implementation of a predictive simulation of them must be at least as complex as the system itself. So science doesn’t suggest that at all, in fact it excludes it as a practical physical possibility.
Agree. I just can't get behind god of the gaps leaps. It's far braver to not fool yourself and say "I just don't know". And an underlying (or avowed), vulgar conception of physicalism often leads to wooly nonsense.
I think what he tries to say is life problems can not be overcome by reduced reality of nature. As a naturalist myself, yes I also think reality can be reduced all the way. Just like Newton understood force between planets in space and gravity on Earth are based on the same thing, or just like we discovered that every material is made of atoms, we will ultimately understand the world as a unified reality, not caused or sth by anything other than itself. But, what we experience is a part of this complex universe which is built by the complex interactions based on fundamentals of reality, so we need to consider every part of this complexity to solve a life problem. Knowing most reduced fundamental reality may or may not help but it won't solve it alone. That's how I interpret this.
I love Stephen's position on this subject.
Mind is an actual layer that is transparent. The layer is also responsible for inner monologue and learning. I reversed a learning disability and finally accessed the inner monologue layer after 30+ years of being stuck in a limited state. When this layer activated for the forst time, it was like it was never missing, it filled my head with so much knowledge, more than I was used to processing.
Amazing experience! What do you did for reversing your limited mental state and gain access to the whole potential? I am really amazed by your comment, and curious about.
@@zenzero27771 I wish I could talk about the how part, but whenever I try to explain on this platform, my messages get censored. It synchronizes the sensual layers in addition to having the inner monologue. Like I said, I never had the monologue and I've also had aphantasia my whole life. All I knew is things were a lot harder for me than those around me growing up, when I first reversed my limitations in my 30s, everything started working together in a way that when I communicated with other people around me, that without a doubt, I was experiencing life the same way they were, and feeling emotions in that moment, I felt connected to my family. This voice is incredible, I've been trying since 2012 to find others that are capable of doing this and get help but nobody finds this interesting.
This layer is tied to inner thought, intuition and memory, it's a transparent layer that is tied to a system in our bodies that requires a very minimal amount of fuel that our bodies produce, natrually, for those that are stuck with learning disabilities, it could just mean that their body has this layer, just isn't producing the fuel to inflate the layer to give them a mind.
The brain is the receiver and transmitter of Universal Mind or Consciousness. Through the personality and layers of conditioning we have, we have an experience of what we perceive as our own or individual consciousness. The truth is we are never apart or separate from Universal Mind and our whole experience on Earth is designed so we awaken to this ultimate truth. Consciousness is and will always be. Beyond time and form.
I myself have been stating that the physical brain is a very sophisticated computer/transceiver. The strictly computer part is what produces Ego that disappears when the physical brain dies . The transceiver part is that which is in two way contact with the spirit realm - that includes God and our souls. The physical computer is able to connect body and soul and gives our bodies a consciousness of "I AM" and our souls a sense of individualization. Consciousness is really the mind of God and survives the body as is evident in NDEs. Consciousness will NEVER be found to be emergent from the brain. The best that science can do is to find the parts of the brain that allows for a transceiver. If you wish to pick apart Consciousness you need to dissect the Mind of God. Good luck with that. You cannot prove the immaterial using material means. When is EVERYBODY going to finally admit that they were Created by an amazing God? Until then Heaven (or at least peace) on Earth is highly unlikely. 🙏❤️
@@garychartrand7378 yes that is correct. Scientists also need to come to the realisation that Consciousness produces matter and not the other way around.
@@luzdaviola1146 Well stated 🙏❤️
break out the drum circle 😂 it's just your body doing its thing, that's all
Interesting topic. Well spoken. Thank you.
Directed attention leads down paths and farther down the path we see how it's pattern connects to other things like how sacred geometry connects everything. We direct attention down the path, gather data, connect the pieces but we have connected so much when we stand back it looks like a giant chaotic board but it's just an imbalance of data. Like how we tie letters to sound and color to energy, all the connections come from that directed path through reality by the conscious mind.
I really love the way the essence of consciousness asks, "what is the essence of consciousness?" 😂 like the essence of consciousness is separate from itself 😂😂😂
life is Essence of Consciousness
The mind is not the same as consciousness.
Consciousness is. It is what you are. It is with you throughout life no matter how many times your body recycles your cells. Or whatever info you feed or delete your mind with.
@LifesInsight life is but a subjective experience. That's all.
Maybe a part of some all
Core to consciousness is that it is about the summary state of the organism as a whole. This means it only exists over a length scale commensurate with the body and a timescale of a few hundred milliseconds, over which all parts can have their effect and be effected. It is compatible with physics but the predictive power of the equations of physics is poor because you don't have full information about the initial conditions, and the system is highly nonlinear. Therefore higher level descriptions have more predictive power and efficacy.
Excellent... thanks 🙏.
Our body is changed by our environment and not just the limbs but the brain. Our brain can then compute better af we can understand what a conscious decision is and a conscious decision is more than just feeling hunger and finding food. Conscious decision making is about WHAT you're consciously thinking of so if you live your life bouncing from hunger to job to whatever else with no greater thought then your consciousness is basically unconscious and the decisions are basically keeping people trapped because of their consciousness not being conscious and looping them in a cycle kinda.
When the master speaks!
Excellent ending.
Awareness is known by awareness alone.
It is rational to conclude that rationality has limits. Rationality is a process used by the subject to make sense of the objective world, but it cannot reveal the nature of the subject. Consciousness--the subject--can be turned on itself and reveal its own nature, a subjective process for which the only external evidence we have is how a person conducts oneself in the objective world afterward. In my view those interested in this topic would do well to examine the lives and accounts of the people who specialize in and have gained deep insight via subjective methods, whether we refer to them as "shamans" or "saints" or "mystics." Science is useful for a great many things, but revealing the nature of consciousness is not one of them.
Consciousness and conscious experience are two different things
What is consciousness without experience?
@@uninspired3583 it is good to know, that conscious experinence is just part of conciousness. conscious experince is movement in our mind, thoughts, memories. there are states in us, that movement is not. everybody can experience it. for example we are expeiencing ballance when riding a bike or walking, but we are not aware of it, we just know that we are walking, but there is not neccesarily experience of ballance. i know science sais that it is a complexs state. but it really is not. conscinece in simple state of just be. and if you go to the root of conscious "experience", there experience is not, but rather something else.
There is no such thing as "consciousness" per se as
"consciousness" is a label and only a label for
the self-being-conscious-process
(and since 'process' is an abstract notion,
so is being conscious
(which explains the immaterial flavour of it)).
There is a redundancy in the phrase "conscious experience"
as 'experience' means the self-being-conscious-of-something(s).
1:53 other than systematic rational thinking is the emotional one that comes in a mix of flavors of its own... or somhow the two overlap in certain situations 🤔
The five senses support the internal organs and the external organs for example the eyes are constantly recording and break down visible light waves and the ears are constantly recording and break down sound waves and the skin is constantly coding and breaks down x-rays waves and pressure and the mouth and nose are constantly coding and breaking down the biological world through taste and smell. These five senses are constantly pulling information from the outside world for the body which provides total awareness for the body and brain this is the essence of the soul and body Consciousness.
Sophisticated @unique nature needs an eye's to discover-witness it
The self is not a collection of switches, or even atoms
Consciousness or Awareness simply means...you have knowledge or information of both yourself as subject and the objects sorrounding you. It is a product of brain because if it wasn't...why are we not aware of ourselves before getting born and after death 😊 These are all simple logical answers but we humans have complicated it so much... probably because instead of finding answers on our own with start and end...our education system make us rely on others knowledge where we start searching for answers in middle...instead of finding it in root. 😊
Because the real isn't a product of the brain. In this realm, we know hot from cold and cold from hot. This isn't proper knowledge - we don't know things in themselves, but know of things from what they're not. In the higher realm, it doesn't work like this. There is no comparison to this higher realm, atleast not this one of finitude.
The psycho physical consciousness is of the brain, but not merely the brain; it relies on other contigents. Like a flame: the flame isn't a product of the match or rough surface; the consumation of match and rough surface, there arises fire - same for consciousness. Without the Atman, Anatta, Soul, Self, there can be no psycho physical experience(consciousness) and the corporeal organism, senses and sense perception organs, mentation and mind, there is no experience. And the Atman, you might consider as God conscious - the principle, that ALL really is.
^^ I've only spent several thousand hours trying to touch this so.. regardless, I will continue on atleast for I have touched it.
@@S3RAVA3LM The very fundamental mistake which Advaita does is that it doesn't apply logic. Advaita cannot answer that why ignorance exists if everything is Brahman. For them everything is illusion. If such is the case why those who believe they are pure consciousness after reading Advaita don't go to jungle and give up this body.
Try to answer below:-
1.Ignorance is eternal. If it is not then why we have it now in terms of war and violence. Shankara died but the dream world of ignorance continues in reality. It didn't end for those who lived after shankara's death.
2.Rupesh is Born in ignorance. He reads Advaita and realizes he is Brahman
From above Who was Rupesh before he read Advaita. What are the chances that he will not be born again.
Please don't give illogical explanation of dream which Advaita makes people to believe forcefully without logic. No where it can stand in front of logic, philosophy and science.
Moreover does Advaita checks it's own philosophy on that grounds with which it rejects others. Why do they don't believe in other religions.
Please think logically and then reply 😀
😀
@@S3RAVA3LM Also please don't say that Advaita connects itself or stands on ground of Quantum Physics. No where does it stand and nobody has accepted that except those people who are promoting Advaita for their personal benefits. Nowhere does Advaita stand in front of logic, philosophy and science 😀
@@S3RAVA3LM Conversation between Advaita and Vishistadvaita :-
Advaita :- Hey Vishistadvaita you know I am pure consciousness and rest of this universe is just a illusion or dream.
Vishistadvaita:- Hey Advaita you know I am eternal along with Lord but somehow because of my bad decision I am engaged in this Maya or world and my duty now is to chant my lord's name so that I will not return back to this world and leave peacefully serving my Lord.
Advaita :- You fool...if you are eternal how come you don't remember because eternal doesn't change.
Vishistadvaita:- You too are fool ..Why are you getting trapped in your own dream. Dream something beautiful instead of Life and death or get out of dream right now.
Hearing the above conversation Buddhist said you both are fool... everything is zero or nothing...no world...no Brahman.
Then dualists came and they said you all are fools. God has created this and we just need to be slave of him. Let him enjoy life and death of ours .
😀
Human consciousness is an emergent property of the human brain. It is produced wholly by the the physical brain and yet cannot be fully reduced to physical properties. The mind is not a physical object but is fully a product of the brain.
I see it as a process or activity of the brain. It's something we sometimes do. This is why criticisms of physicalism that act as though we think mind is an object completely miss the mark. It's also why dualism, which does think the mind is a form of object, is so far away from the right track. Hilariously, many of the people that criticise physicalists for thinking mind is an object are also dualists who think exactly that.
@@simonhibbs887I agree that it's a dynamic process and it's not a physical object although it's fully produced and dependent on a physical object, the human brain. Emergent Materialism. Will the study of psychology ever be fully reduced to physics, neuroscience, and biochemistry? I don't believe it ever will.
@@simonhibbs887
"I see it as a process or activity of the brain"
I concur but to contribute a bit more precision to it...
The 'process or activity' is how representations are encoded and maintained.
Representation is the most important aspect of a thought and
thoughts are essential for being conscious.
Consciousness is just perception. Perception of the environment and reacting to biological processes. Animals have consciousness. Self is a whole other thing. There is no self without consciousness, no consciousness without brains.
If there is no consciousness without the brain then how do we account for the many well-documented cases of people dying on the hospital table, being declared medically dead, with no brain activity, and then returning to tell the doctors what they said or describing what the room looked like above their bodies lying on the table while the patient was "dead?"
@@Caitanyadasa108 Dead means permanently unconscious regardless of medical definitions.
An adult clothes moth cannot feed. It has no mouth parts.
But it is very good at finding a mate and laying eggs.
The little grubs eat our clothes and carpets. Brilliant design !
I recommend you guys to read Risale-i Nur Collection by Said Nursi. Anyone can see what the reality is from this books. He is the RUMI of this time.
None of Chorover's reasons in this video support his belief that consciousness (qualia) can't be explained by physical causes, except his vague statement that he ran into some "brick walls" when he tried. That sounds more like he gave up due to years of personal frustration than a compelling argument. Decades from now after neuroscientists have accrued much more detailed data about how the brain works, perhaps there will be enough information for a genius (or an AI) to solve the Hard Problem. Until then, frustration is pretty much guaranteed for elderly scientists who hope for the solution during their lifetimes.
yes, he doesnt use rational arguments. its a x of the gaps logik: "we dont know how so it can be Y so it must be X"...
I suspect the explanation will include some discussion of the relationship between material existence and the abstract patterns and processes for which matter is the substrate.
open hand, not fist
Hi five 👋
Its crazy that i can read my own mind
I would ask a fee for it from yourself!
You can read my mind when you read what I have written.
Homeboy took psychedelics, and it changed his entire worldview.
None of us like change, it shakes up our reality to much. We like familiarity, and then we like to reify ourselves in that familiarity believing it to be reality.
We mimic who we like, or atleast who we think we like. Imagen being lead all through life by this type of an ego impulse - trying to be like the very person or thing that we think we like. Who is that; this impulse that leads us? This guy, arised from a relation with the exterior and now leading the interior. This is condition. This is the worldly mind construct. Overcoming the mind is very difficult. We are like the seal & wax - we mistakingly identify with the impession made.
Persons today, they're not really about & after Truth, Justice, Wisdom, the Divine, Beauty, Unity, the ONE, being, reality, Intellect, essence, substrata, the potiential & actual.
Have you gone in for a check up lately? You are drifting further and further from reality.
@tomjackson7755 what's known is only through the mode of the knower
If you really do have something to say, you should first start trying to say it clearly and plainly, in a language people who have no idea what you’re talking about can follow and understand. Sincerely.
@longcastle4863 Oh, is that right. I never considered you and your kin.
@@S3RAVA3LM Oh look you repeated the same meaningless statement to be ignored.
Have you gone in for a check up lately? You are drifting further and further from reality.
" what is the essence of consciousness ?"
Consciousness .
The essence of consciousness is representation.
Far out! Study Buddhist psychology and you find exactly this!
This is why the country needs Donald Trump. People get locked into their thinking by the authority of governments, government institutions, banks, corporations, journalists etc. Trump's bravado in how he has dealt with institutions like banks and how he diss's groups like NATO, the wef etc. in other words we get locked into our thinking and why so many MAGA folks defy these authoritative types.
Like a cancer in the nation.
Consciousness is a computer function in human brain, by natural selection process.
Surely factors such as stress, personal physiology, etc are also themselves reductive factors. His actual argument seems to lead to the conclusion that those experiments did not fully take into account physically reducible phenomena. He provides no evidence that there are any non-reducible phenomena at play.
Very good. Perhaps he means when equations run through a point of qualia, they tend to become chaotic? I seem to remember something about qualia, considered irreducible.
@@samc6231 Did he talk about qualia at all? I didn't spot that. I know some see qualia as irreducible, panpsychists and some dualists. I think they're informational phenomena. Qualia, like all conscious experience, is about something, and information is about things. I think consciousness and qualia are informational processes and activities, and therefore physical activities.
@@simonhibbs887 Yep. But what about personal delusions such as hypochondria, or some sort of collective hysteria, beliefs or components that are irrational, but psychosomatically causative? How do you rationally account for the completely irrational operands?
@@samc6231 Human brains are incredibly complex fragile systems. That’s why they are completely encased in a bone box, it’s the most protected part of our anatomy. Complex fragile systems sometimes go wrong. Is there really anything about that I need to explain further?
@@simonhibbs887 I thought you might say that. But blaming reality for going wrong (irony alert) is indistinguishable from the actual reductive theory being incomplete, and conclusively proves it has no final probative value in the field.
Consciousness (free soul) is a free split of the Holy Spirit. Knowing the essence of consciousness is knowing the essence of God which is what satan & followers want all this time to be like God..
This is why knowledge of the essence of consciousness is forbidden, otherwise satan may win. Science attempt to discover this knowledge is futile and just a waste of time and tax dollars.
Stephen Chorover got it right that consciousness can not be defined in physical terms. Furthermore, the conscious choice to believe in "Non-physical SPIRITUAL ENTITY or God" can not possibly be dictated by brains' chemistry nor driven by neurons' electric current. You will end up looking like science funny clown if you think so...
clown seems to me to be you. now tell me how much your conscience weighs or measures just like your god and your demons?
Consciousness is directed attention and such otherwise you live life bouncing around changing without a greater consciousness directing.
I bet he wouldn’t say that last bit about naive mechanistic reductionism to my face!!
spoilers, there is nothing non-reductionist about a physicalist neuroscientist asserting all that exists internally is neurobiology.
So basically it's reductionist, just complex involving many more factors than possible to calculate.
Absolute unscientific observations by Stephen.
The reductionist view IS the royal road, but it's a very long road. There are better ways for now
This man explained absolutely nothing.
His views changed when he became an old man.
Absolutely nothing is simply the potential for absolutely anything. Duh! 😅
It has not yet been proven that consciousness exists. This about consciousness is like the question was it God who created us or was it us who created him...🇵🇹.
I'm pretty sure, that I'm conscious. It's astounding, that you don't seem to be so sure about that.
The same way you “prove”a mountain exists or a tree exists or an idea exists is the same way you “prove” consciousness exists.
@@PeterS123101 Since I was young, I have always understood that what cannot be weighed or measured, does not exist. Now that I'm old, experience tells me that I'm not far away . 🇵🇹
@@carlosdacosta867
Seems to me there are different kinds of existence.
The existence of matter is one kind.
The existence of movement is another kind.
Matter enjoys a stand alone existence apparently.
Movement, on the other hand, depends entirely for its existence on the existence of matter.
i.e. There can be no movement independent of a material existent,
a 'stand alone' movement lacks existence, is identical to nothing (nothingness?).
It gets a little stranger upon realization that
movement is relative and not a property of any single object.
Nevertheless, who but the crazy would deny that movement exists?
I think the mind and being conscious seem immaterial to us because
they are based on movement.
(If you know a little about how neural discharge works
you will have a better chance of understanding that statement
than if you don't know).
What's the Essence of Consciousness?
The Essence of Consciousness is representation.
Representation can be accomplished by encoding processes.
Processes (lots of small movements considered collectively) like
neural discharge timing patterns are what's responsible for representing
not only the world around us but
even representing what we mean by self.
And as you know more confidently than any other fact,
it is your self that is conscious.
@@PeterS123101
"I'm pretty sure, that I'm conscious"
Right on!
The interesting thing is discovering how the gyrations of mere matter
can be possibly responsible.
I suspect it has much to do with the extreme difference between
material existence and material movement.
i won at this one fruit eating fruit peelings to gain legal strength
I became unconscious watching this because the speaker sounded more like an excited school girl sharing a new bow than a dispassionate scientist etc. I've watched several Kuhns with Consciousness in the title, and others, here on the TUBE, and here is what I've learned. While we know a whole lot more about neurochemistry and, too an extent, are able to map cognitive pathways and define them in terms of their relation to something going on externally than was known in the day of James, Bergson, Freud, Jung, Whitehead, those writers' description of the topic remains more insightful. Stephen, and ALL the other neural scientists, philosphers, theologians, Larry, etc have utterly failed to define CONSCIOUSNESS. That's game, set, and match for the Cosmos.
An attempt at definition:
'Conscious' is the label we apply to that
particular dynamic relationship between
the thought we refer to as 'the self' that
is implanted in human brains by culture and
the model of the world painted on the brain
by sensory input and muscular feedback.
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL I don't need a definition of consciousness. That's like using a hammer to hit itself. I could give you ten. I'll throw one out there. Imagination, kindled by awareness, experience, and precognition, enhanced by language including the language of science is a tool , that, If you think about it, the imagination takes over.
@@CPHSDC
Seems my interpretation of your statement,
"Stephen, and ALL the other neural scientists, philosphers, theologians, Larry, etc
have utterly failed to define CONSCIOUSNESS"
as a complaint was wrong.
I've been thinking some more, always dangerous. Darwinian natural selection has proven itself unable to generate the change required for speciation to explain why there is variety or consciousness, let alone imagination. The Genetic Code and its carbon based products speak of information, design, which is forethought, which is imagination one of the best parts of consciousness. And it works on a sort of autopilot, life not consciousness. Anyway, to my thought. The beauty of the variety of fish, the designer had, has a real artistic sense, the point is fish come in schools. They share awareness, act in tandem, share a consciousness. Let me get to the epiphany. Humans are one offs. Each individually designed by the designer, our purpose, a fleeting(?) flourish of the designer to impart individuality, keep it new, stuffed with potential fish and mushrooms are incapable of envying.
@@REDPUMPERNICKELnah, we dont need a self to be concious.
Zero value points made by Stephen on this subject of consciousness.
Much ado about exactly nothing.👎 ☹️
Oil of consciousness with toothache 🤓
The essence of consciousness must include, it seems to me, an awareness of one’s environment in conjunction with an awareness of one’s needs, wants and preferences. Whether you’re a bug, a bear or a human being.
The essence of consciousness must be the concept of the self.
Rambling gibberich . Guys It is Impossible shows up in emperism verification. It is not neurosience proceendings.
Show me a non reductionist model that can make testible predictions, and we might have something. It seems like reductionist critics can only offer post hoc rationalisations, why is that?
Consciousness has no essence. Consciousness is the essence.
😴💤
Got any evidence to support that claim? Or does it just seem correct to you?
The essence of consciousness must be the concept of the self.
The essence of consciousness is representation.
The essence of consciousness is abstraction.
@@BLSFL_HAZE bless your little heart. How cute of you. It's called a retroductive ontological truth. The essence of things can not be a thing, or it too would be an expression of some other essence. It is a self-negating concept to believe the essence of things is a thing. As such, the essence of things is not approachable through Cartesian methods because it is not limited to time and space -- it is the source of time and space. The closest one can come to an empirical observation of things being manifested from essence is the double slit experiment. It is consciousness that collapses the wave function through observation and manifests the world around us. Hence, it is consciousness that is the essence of things.
Unfortunately, the debate over consciousness is dominated by ideological extremists. Depending on one's *core beliefs,* consciousness is either nothing more than illusionary brain function or a spiritual umbilical cord piped into to the mind of God. ... As with most diametrically opposed ideologies, the truth lies somewhere in between.
*Middle-ground:* Consciousness is produced by the brain and then exists outside of the brain after being produced just like sound waves are produced by vocal cords and then exist outside of the vocal cords after being produced.
In both cases, the biological source is required for the existence of the resulting phenomenon, and the resulting phenomenon no longer requires the existence of the biological source.
"Just like sound waves." LOL. Sound waves can be understood as ("reduced" to) vibrations of material particles. They require a physical medium to exist. That's why in space no one can hear you scream. Furthermore, a biological source is NOT required to produce sound waves, for example thunder.
One of your more thought provoking comments.
Consciousness still seems to me to be passive which sounds similar to what you're saying. It does not make decisions and does not access memories. It is not "my" conscious, yet it is me in a most fundamental sense.
It stretches my imagination to believe that after death there may be this passive experience without an "I" even remembering that it was once alive. Under some strange rules it might then become aware of something we cannot imagine in this state of life.
@@tonystoklosa210 *"Consciousness still seems to me to be passive which sounds similar to what you're saying."*
... If your "passive" reference refers to consciousness being dependent on a biological organ (a brain) for it to exist, then yes, it is passive. No brain = no consciousness or sense of self-identity. However, a brain is also passive in that it requires matter and biological chemistry before it can exist. ... If this is the case, then we are forced to keep regressing until we can establish whatever got this chain of events to unfold.
I argue that the origin of matter, chemistry, life, biological brains, and consciousness is *information.* In other words, consciousness is just the latest evolutionary stage of information.
*"It does not make decisions and does not access memories. It is not "my" conscious, yet it is me in a most fundamental sense."*
... I argue that your consciousness is "in the loop" regarding the many decisions you make. Your brain is dealing with volumes of high-end information that lesser-evolved lifeforms don't need a self-aware consciousness to orchestrate. An animal's brain says, "Grab all of the food and eliminate the competition!" and no internal arbitrator is required to make that happen.
However, your consciousness might filter this basic Darwinian-based instinct and personally decide to give up your food to someone in need or "turn the other cheek" ... thus placing your own survival in jeopardy.
*"It stretches my imagination to believe that after death there may be this passive experience without an "I" even remembering that it was once alive."*
... I agree! If a self-aware consciousness is the latest stage of an evolution of information, then it wouldn't make sense for the information you produce throughout your lifetime to suddenly become nonexistent upon death. That would defeat the purpose of having information "evolve" into a higher form. The motto of "Existence" as stated in my book is _"What happens in existence stays in existence."_
*"Under some strange rules it might then become aware of something we cannot imagine in this state of life."*
... Consciousness has a self-encoded level of limitation called *logical conceivability." If something is conceivable, then it can be imagined, and if it cannot be conceived, then you would never be able to imagine (or comprehend) whatever is being proposed.
*"One of your more thought provoking comments."*
... Thank you!
@@0-by-1_Publishing_LLCYour idea about What happens in Existence, stays in Existence, is faintly reminiscent of the saying What happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas. 😂
@@Resmith18SR *"Your idea about What happens in Existence, stays in Existence, is faintly reminiscent of the saying What happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas."*
... Yes, but I do give the city of "lost wages" due credit for the quote in the book.
It sounds like asking what is beyond the event horizon...no further comments.
Hilarious him calling others naive.
Nothing about consciousness
My house plant leans towards the window.
It is obviously conscious of the light.
Why then that same plant is not able to defend itself when one tries to kill it. Interactions between two forms cannot be called consciousness. Even running water tries to run through slope first or a lightning acquires shortest path to strike. Consciousness simple means awareness of both oneself and of other objects surrounding you. In consciousness you have a feeling of yourself and you are able to express and defend that feeling 😊
@@rupesh_sahebrao_dhote
Excellent points.
I can tell that you are a deep thinker.
Perhaps you have forgotten about the meaning of the word 'reactive'?
Consider this sequence... inert, reactive, instinctual, bicameral and conscious.
@@REDPUMPERNICKEL
It's not a problem. I own a dictionary.
@@tedgrant2 "My house plant leans towards the window.
It is obviously conscious of the light"
You assert your plant is conscious but
it is actually reactive.
As an alternate way of thinking, offer my book, in progress, which unites Reason and Revelation. @shaulbeny