Been doing this 41 years. Cards are absolutely an investment, as my returns over 4 decades prove. The problem with Geoff Wilson is that he is still a beginner and he has a completely different agenda than just investing... he's selling an app.
Then you should know that SOME cards can be an investment. Most will not appreciate over time. New crops of players come in every to get excited about. Only a couple of HOF or beloved players will appreciate or even hold their value. And that's for the big cards. They're producing sooo many different players cards in a given year. They have to be special or nobody will give a damn in a decade or two. Especially if the economy struggles at all. Sports cards are one of the first to go when money gets tight. Easiest way to navigate the hobby is buy what you like or are happy to keep. Everything else will be what it is.
Agreed. Cards are an investment with the right players. Of course, not every player is a good investment, just like not every stock is a good investment.
Really interesting video. In addition to the "investment" data, card #5 from your list highlights another concern with Geoff's content. That BGS 9.5 Jordan is the copy linked to known card trimmer, Robert Block. Geoff commented about this card on blowout, stating he (collectors) have to trust the professionals, assigning the grades. Humorously, Geoff has shared several crack/crossover videos of him questioning the graders opinions, to his benefit.
Good catch! I definitely remember that thread on BO where members had pointed that out that trimmed card he bought. I don't believe we saw much of him on the forums after that.
I've never understood why card trimming is an issue. Don't they measure margins and dimensions with a micrometer and microscope or a digital equivalent? If they are old grades before it was really tackled, then it should be well known not to jump into that card with older grades. In the end, if they cut it better than the manufacturer and still maintained the correct dimensions, is it really a problem? I plead ignorance just always curious.
This is tremendous! Well-researched and easy to understand. Makes plain just how careful we need to be as collectors when we are specifically looking for cards we think will hold value. There are no guarantees in the hobby, of course, but as you mention in the video: all too common cards turning into huge dollar cards is always a dangerous sign. I look forward to catching up on your other videos.
A lot of people from the pandemic era that labeled themself as something (investor, guru, etc) have ultimately proven that you can't just speak something into existence.
Absolutely true. The good news is i've seen signs of things getting back to an actual hobby again where it's not solely about profiting. Collectors have always made up the foundation, so once the fat is trimmed we'll still be here.
Thank you for providing this video. I've always been curious about Geoff's profit/mostly loss "investment" numbers. I appreciate you sharing this information. Thanks again!
Thanks for the feedback. I figured people deserved to know the truth about all these great "investment" opportunities SCI and others were talking about during the biggest speculative bubble we've ever seen in the hobby.
@@mindcycle_cards its real simple to see through. He bought at the top which was foolish of course most cards will fall 50-90% shortly after it was a near certainty
Also do you know anyone who has lost money collecting cards or mantle or for that matter HOF in the last 40 years? Why do you make such a big deal of not being able to sell cards and having to find a buyer? Ebay/card shows/dealers/collectors. No one ever wants your box of commons, everyone wants your good cards. Remember whatever the card is it wouldn't be 1,000 dollars if no one wanted it!!!
If you factor in inflation plenty of people who bought Mantle cards in the 80's and 90's are down on those cards. The 52 is an exception, but outside of that i'd be careful making a blanket statement that all Mantle cards or HOF cards don't lose value. Remember the 89 UD Griffy Jr RC? Those are now worth less raw than they were in the 90's. Just one example, but most cards actually lose value long term.
Appreciate it 🙌 I’m not sure I’d be able to watch many more SCI video at this point 😄 but there’s likely more that could be uncovered. I’m probably only scratching the surface here.
People need to remember that a lot of stuff on the internet is content for the sake of content. Its not supposed to be educational, even if it appears to be educational.
Absolutely. Half the content I see from hobby influencers appears to either be staged or over exaggerated clickbait. But for lots of them that's how they're actually making money. The number of influencers who are up overall on card "investments" has to be pretty low at this point.
I would like to know how you treated sales you did not know the price of. Did you just zero it out against the purchase price? If so you have no idea if it was profit or loss. as such your overall results are incomplete. I suspect you could ask Geoff Wilson. Also realize that every loss was a mistake every win was a no brainer and I agree investment is long term. How long a term????? I have day traded and would say it is less speculative as my risk is smaller. When I loss people say I am gambling and when I profit they like to say I am just lucky. You need a better criteria. What if you bought a 10 dollar stock and sold it for 25 in 6 months, did you invest or speculate???
Thanks for your comment. Those $0 amounts in the profit/loss column are for cards I couldn't find a recent sale for. It's actually purposely entered that way to not skew the data. Once I or someone else finds a valid recent comp I will update the tracker. If you're a day trader I would think you'd know the difference between speculating and investing. I explain it in more detail in my "collecting cards after the boom" series, but to quickly explain in more detail a few big reasons are the lack of a market, thus lack of ever knowing the total # of cards available at any given time. Think total stocks available that you'd be able to easily find out in a real market. You can't make dividends off cards. Cards are also not backed by anything other than a hope that they will go up. I could go on, but that's the gist of it. To answer your question about buying for 10 and selling for 25 in 6 months, it really depends on why you bought and the reasons why you bought so hard to answer that one. Would be happy to answer if you can give me some more specifics.
Thanks for your comment. I definitely believe in making money on cards. I just don't agree with the "investing" terminology a lot people have been using these last few years. I cover this more in the collecting cards after the boom series if you were interested in a more in depth explanation of why I feel that way.
The guy is trying to play both sides of the field. He is both trying to sell product and embed himself among the industry insiders while doing the whole "gee shucks were all investors (and now in a bear market collectors) guys teehee" 🤷
Yeah I definitely agree. I'd gather that he also didn't know what he was doing when we were in a bull market as he was pretty green to begin with in sports cards at that time. But that's really the whole point of the research I did, to let people decide for themselves.
Unfortunately, I think that he doesnt care about the loss.I think he could write off the loss, depending on what his tax structure is. All these people wanted to do, was buy expensive cards, to get views and subscribers. Now he makes even more money on views, and draws people to his app. Its annoying but its probably not the dumbest business tactic, especially when people dont normally invest the time into tracking and calling his BS, which kudos to you and thank you for your work. He is kind of like a grifter, he comes into town, talks a lot of talk, takes your money, and gets out by the time you realize he's full of shit
He would watch this video and tell you that he is proud of any loss he incurred. In fact, he believes his losses should be celebrated. And he considers his million-dollar+ loss as "tuition". I personally can't stand the guy.
Hellllllooooooooo sports card speculators! Great video. Agree with you that there is no investment strategy with Geoff Wilson; it's all speculation. I would never call a day trader in stocks, an "investor" in the stock market. Day trading stocks (similar to card flipping) is just speculation pure and simple and typically returns negative financial results.
Doing the Lord's work...the main issue with cards is you can have 2 of the same card with the same grade...and both have different flaws/surface (hulking)/centreing. That's why there is no reliable market that provides instant buy/sell prices like a sharemarket would. Collectors and flippers are also very fickle.
Appreciate the comment and I agree with you. There have been a few who have tried to create a "market" for cards, but it will never be the same as a real financial market
Yeah, it's highly likely he is making money elsewhere since it's certainly not from card buys. Whether or not he actually covers costs for SCI employees, building rent, camera equipment, etc.. is still yet to be known. He's definitely worked his way into the industry these last 3 years or so.
I often think he buys cards strictly to show off. He calls them "investments" but it may be more for clicks and views. He's still calling them investments though, so they still get added to the list lol.
Great spreadsheet, I love numbers. I need more info tho! If you were to take out all the cards without a recent sale, that it looks like you marked as "$0", what would be the total gain/loss?
Thanks, appreciate it. To explain a bit better, column I is just the difference of columns D and G ("initial cost" and "recent sale"). It shows either a loss or gain based on the recent sale price. For cards I couldn't find a recent sale I made both values the same so the difference would equal 0 and not count toward the total. My thought was if comparable sale ever came up I can add that data in and the difference in column I would automatically adjust. Removing those rows would produce the same end result (same total).
@@mindcycle_cards That's what I was hoping you did! Thanks for the clarification, needed that to make my own conclusions about the situation. Hopefully he is able to show some gains on the remaining cards, I don't wish anyone to lose money. THanks again
Good video thanks for posting. No surprise. Cards selling for say $20k in the boom but only 2k prior to the covid boom were never 20k cards. Smart people SOLD during that period of mania, not bought. Anybody thats been in the hobby for years did just this. All the new people thought the boom was sustainable and refused to listen. " But these are goats" they said lol. Sorry but a lot of brady jordan and Kobe cards will fall the most despite still being good cards. They were so overhyped it was shocking. Its often wise to stay away from anything that quickly shoots up 10-20x in price its often going to collapse. And never listen to any "social media influencers" that's just another term for fool.
Appreciate it man. You are absolutely right, selling what these guys were telling us to buy is exactly what a lot of us were telling others to do. It's just too bad we couldn't reach more people. I wasn't even considering doing YT at that point lol. I cover it in my Collecting after the boom series, but I picked up some amazing cards during the pandemic by selling a lot of my graded base I had bought years back when that whole trend happened.
@@mindcycle_cards well its up to them. Honestly they should know better. Its no different than these other influencers giving financial / investing advice, medical advice , etc never listen to anyone on the internet make your own choices or else you'll be sorry
Im completely indifferent to Geoff. I feel he's a bit of a clown, but that's what helps him be successful as well. Good for him, and also fk him. LOL No one should follow his advice seriously, he's an entertainer
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Been doing this 41 years. Cards are absolutely an investment, as my returns over 4 decades prove. The problem with Geoff Wilson is that he is still a beginner and he has a completely different agenda than just investing... he's selling an app.
Imagine if you purchased beanie babies instead. They aren't an investment. But congratulations to you.
Then you should know that SOME cards can be an investment. Most will not appreciate over time. New crops of players come in every to get excited about. Only a couple of HOF or beloved players will appreciate or even hold their value. And that's for the big cards. They're producing sooo many different players cards in a given year. They have to be special or nobody will give a damn in a decade or two. Especially if the economy struggles at all. Sports cards are one of the first to go when money gets tight. Easiest way to navigate the hobby is buy what you like or are happy to keep. Everything else will be what it is.
Agreed. Cards are an investment with the right players. Of course, not every player is a good investment, just like not every stock is a good investment.
Also, if he sells his cards he would likely have to pay around 15% fees so his losses would be even worse 😂
Great work!
Thanks, appreciate it.
I’ve been saying this since day one with GW. Never try to monetize sports card investing without a solid track record. Great video
Much appreciated
Lol, sports card radio needs to do watch along to this video! 🤣
Agreed! :)
Really interesting video.
In addition to the "investment" data, card #5 from your list highlights another concern with Geoff's content.
That BGS 9.5 Jordan is the copy linked to known card trimmer, Robert Block.
Geoff commented about this card on blowout, stating he (collectors) have to trust the professionals, assigning the grades.
Humorously, Geoff has shared several crack/crossover videos of him questioning the graders opinions, to his benefit.
Good catch! I definitely remember that thread on BO where members had pointed that out that trimmed card he bought. I don't believe we saw much of him on the forums after that.
I've never understood why card trimming is an issue. Don't they measure margins and dimensions with a micrometer and microscope or a digital equivalent? If they are old grades before it was really tackled, then it should be well known not to jump into that card with older grades. In the end, if they cut it better than the manufacturer and still maintained the correct dimensions, is it really a problem? I plead ignorance just always curious.
This is tremendous! Well-researched and easy to understand. Makes plain just how careful we need to be as collectors when we are specifically looking for cards we think will hold value. There are no guarantees in the hobby, of course, but as you mention in the video: all too common cards turning into huge dollar cards is always a dangerous sign. I look forward to catching up on your other videos.
Thanks! Really appreciate your feedback.
A lot of people from the pandemic era that labeled themself as something (investor, guru, etc) have ultimately proven that you can't just speak something into existence.
Absolutely true. The good news is i've seen signs of things getting back to an actual hobby again where it's not solely about profiting. Collectors have always made up the foundation, so once the fat is trimmed we'll still be here.
Agree with you on that. Most of the "gurus" are newbies to the hobby who are trying to pass themselves off as experts.
Thank you for providing this video. I've always been curious about Geoff's profit/mostly loss "investment" numbers. I appreciate you sharing this information. Thanks again!
Thanks for the feedback. I figured people deserved to know the truth about all these great "investment" opportunities SCI and others were talking about during the biggest speculative bubble we've ever seen in the hobby.
@@mindcycle_cards its real simple to see through. He bought at the top which was foolish of course most cards will fall 50-90% shortly after it was a near certainty
Also do you know anyone who has lost money collecting cards or mantle or for that matter HOF in the last 40 years? Why do you make such a big deal of not being able to sell cards and having to find a buyer? Ebay/card shows/dealers/collectors. No one ever wants your box of commons, everyone wants your good cards. Remember whatever the card is it wouldn't be 1,000 dollars if no one wanted it!!!
If you factor in inflation plenty of people who bought Mantle cards in the 80's and 90's are down on those cards. The 52 is an exception, but outside of that i'd be careful making a blanket statement that all Mantle cards or HOF cards don't lose value. Remember the 89 UD Griffy Jr RC? Those are now worth less raw than they were in the 90's. Just one example, but most cards actually lose value long term.
Really interesting. Thanks for doing this!
Appreciate it! Thanks for the view.
Take away the boom and paying inflated prices and you can make money today with smart buys and knowing when to sell
Absolutely. Buying and selling is an integral part of the hobby.
This man is not an investor, he is a speculator. Most (or all) cards he bought for investment purposes have already been traded and/or sold.
We need a 6 part docu-series on this stuff. Thanks for putting together
Appreciate it 🙌 I’m not sure I’d be able to watch many more SCI video at this point 😄 but there’s likely more that could be uncovered. I’m probably only scratching the surface here.
Great video - and excellent research! New Subsciber here - looking forward to more great info!
Appreciate your comments and thanks for the sub! I try my best to come out with a new video every few weeks.
People need to remember that a lot of stuff on the internet is content for the sake of content.
Its not supposed to be educational, even if it appears to be educational.
Absolutely. Half the content I see from hobby influencers appears to either be staged or over exaggerated clickbait. But for lots of them that's how they're actually making money. The number of influencers who are up overall on card "investments" has to be pretty low at this point.
Yea never listen to what they're recommending , I just enjoy for brief entertainment when im bored at work.
@@mindcycle_cards a lot of them are out a fortune but at times flipped cards to fools telling them a rebound is around the corner lol
I would like to know how you treated sales you did not know the price of. Did you just zero it out against the purchase price? If so you have no idea if it was profit or loss. as such your overall results are incomplete. I suspect you could ask Geoff Wilson. Also realize that every loss was a mistake every win was a no brainer and I agree investment is long term. How long a term????? I have day traded and would say it is less speculative as my risk is smaller. When I loss people say I am gambling and when I profit they like to say I am just lucky. You need a better criteria. What if you bought a 10 dollar stock and sold it for 25 in 6 months, did you invest or speculate???
Thanks for your comment. Those $0 amounts in the profit/loss column are for cards I couldn't find a recent sale for. It's actually purposely entered that way to not skew the data. Once I or someone else finds a valid recent comp I will update the tracker.
If you're a day trader I would think you'd know the difference between speculating and investing. I explain it in more detail in my "collecting cards after the boom" series, but to quickly explain in more detail a few big reasons are the lack of a market, thus lack of ever knowing the total # of cards available at any given time. Think total stocks available that you'd be able to easily find out in a real market. You can't make dividends off cards. Cards are also not backed by anything other than a hope that they will go up. I could go on, but that's the gist of it.
To answer your question about buying for 10 and selling for 25 in 6 months, it really depends on why you bought and the reasons why you bought so hard to answer that one. Would be happy to answer if you can give me some more specifics.
*correction* "what you bought and the reasons why you bought"
You're crazy if you don't think you can invest. I've made six hundred thousand since 1995
Thanks for your comment. I definitely believe in making money on cards. I just don't agree with the "investing" terminology a lot people have been using these last few years. I cover this more in the collecting cards after the boom series if you were interested in a more in depth explanation of why I feel that way.
The guy is trying to play both sides of the field. He is both trying to sell product and embed himself among the industry insiders while doing the whole "gee shucks were all investors (and now in a bear market collectors) guys teehee" 🤷
Yeah I definitely agree. I'd gather that he also didn't know what he was doing when we were in a bull market as he was pretty green to begin with in sports cards at that time. But that's really the whole point of the research I did, to let people decide for themselves.
Unfortunately, I think that he doesnt care about the loss.I think he could write off the loss, depending on what his tax structure is. All these people wanted to do, was buy expensive cards, to get views and subscribers. Now he makes even more money on views, and draws people to his app. Its annoying but its probably not the dumbest business tactic, especially when people dont normally invest the time into tracking and calling his BS, which kudos to you and thank you for your work. He is kind of like a grifter, he comes into town, talks a lot of talk, takes your money, and gets out by the time you realize he's full of shit
He would watch this video and tell you that he is proud of any loss he incurred. In fact, he believes his losses should be celebrated. And he considers his million-dollar+ loss as "tuition". I personally can't stand the guy.
Yeah wouldn't surprise me, lol
I love this video and will share .
Much appreciated man 🙌
Hellllllooooooooo sports card speculators! Great video. Agree with you that there is no investment strategy with Geoff Wilson; it's all speculation. I would never call a day trader in stocks, an "investor" in the stock market. Day trading stocks (similar to card flipping) is just speculation pure and simple and typically returns negative financial results.
Appreciate your comment. That's exactly what he was doing. Using the word "investing" while doing the opposite has always rubbed me the wrong way.
Doing the Lord's work...the main issue with cards is you can have 2 of the same card with the same grade...and both have different flaws/surface (hulking)/centreing. That's why there is no reliable market that provides instant buy/sell prices like a sharemarket would. Collectors and flippers are also very fickle.
Appreciate the comment and I agree with you. There have been a few who have tried to create a "market" for cards, but it will never be the same as a real financial market
Excellent video, great work 😊
Thanks man!
id say even thou he lost on cards . his channel and everything else he does pays for it in other words its content so we will watch duh
Yeah, it's highly likely he is making money elsewhere since it's certainly not from card buys. Whether or not he actually covers costs for SCI employees, building rent, camera equipment, etc.. is still yet to be known. He's definitely worked his way into the industry these last 3 years or so.
Excellent vid that brings people to their senses
Appreciate it
One good move he did. He trade a bunch of cards for one 1996 Finest refractor Kobe PSA 10.
FYI: one of your sell dates (column H) has a typo. It lists date in the future: may 21 2023
Thanks for pointing this out, much appreciated. I just corrected the date in that row.
Spent $620k on the Jordan Star and Fleer cards which are now worth $180k. What is Geoff's net worth?
I wouldn't be surprised if Geoff came from old money, but his wife also sold an app for ~$1 Billion so she could be funding his collection as well.
I often think he buys cards strictly to show off. He calls them "investments" but it may be more for clicks and views. He's still calling them investments though, so they still get added to the list lol.
Great spreadsheet, I love numbers. I need more info tho! If you were to take out all the cards without a recent sale, that it looks like you marked as "$0", what would be the total gain/loss?
Thanks, appreciate it. To explain a bit better, column I is just the difference of columns D and G ("initial cost" and "recent sale"). It shows either a loss or gain based on the recent sale price. For cards I couldn't find a recent sale I made both values the same so the difference would equal 0 and not count toward the total. My thought was if comparable sale ever came up I can add that data in and the difference in column I would automatically adjust. Removing those rows would produce the same end result (same total).
@@mindcycle_cards That's what I was hoping you did! Thanks for the clarification, needed that to make my own conclusions about the situation. Hopefully he is able to show some gains on the remaining cards, I don't wish anyone to lose money. THanks again
This is absolutely hilarious! Great video!
Appreciate it!
Did you keep the original value in that total loss gain if no recent comps or just total all the profit losses with zero impact from the zeros?
If there isn't a recent sale I set both values to the same number so the profit/loss column will show a zero, thus not counting toward the total.
Good insights.👍
Appreciate it!
Good video thanks for posting. No surprise. Cards selling for say $20k in the boom but only 2k prior to the covid boom were never 20k cards. Smart people SOLD during that period of mania, not bought. Anybody thats been in the hobby for years did just this. All the new people thought the boom was sustainable and refused to listen. " But these are goats" they said lol. Sorry but a lot of brady jordan and Kobe cards will fall the most despite still being good cards. They were so overhyped it was shocking. Its often wise to stay away from anything that quickly shoots up 10-20x in price its often going to collapse. And never listen to any "social media influencers" that's just another term for fool.
Appreciate it man. You are absolutely right, selling what these guys were telling us to buy is exactly what a lot of us were telling others to do. It's just too bad we couldn't reach more people. I wasn't even considering doing YT at that point lol. I cover it in my Collecting after the boom series, but I picked up some amazing cards during the pandemic by selling a lot of my graded base I had bought years back when that whole trend happened.
@@mindcycle_cards well its up to them. Honestly they should know better. Its no different than these other influencers giving financial / investing advice, medical advice , etc never listen to anyone on the internet make your own choices or else you'll be sorry
Holy shit
Same reaction from me. My wife would divorce me if I had losses like that.
Im completely indifferent to Geoff. I feel he's a bit of a clown, but that's what helps him be successful as well. Good for him, and also fk him. LOL
No one should follow his advice seriously, he's an entertainer
Definitely agree with you.
Lol no he hasn’t