I've not had a chance to see this review, however, after watching it-I don't understand why Weber came at you the way they did. I felt like this was a fair, honest, personal review where you raised valid concerns and critiques.
You’re welcome, and honestly, happy to do it. I was very hopeful about this grinder being the last one I’ll ever buy, not quite as hopeful now. Thanks for watching!
As an engineer I tell you, that TIN coating is hard, really hard. In my book, It should not be possible to get a difference depending how much you put through the burrs. TIN coatings are often used for metal machining tools, to get an even harder surface than the hardened steel it self. So even high altitude light roast, are soft as marshmallows. With that said, if you see that the golden tint are wearing off, that's probably down to burr clinching. Having only seen this video, again as an engineer, I'm surprised by the long wobbly shaft, you would need pretty sturdy bearings to make that work. And really don't by the "self centring" theory. Especially when single dosing, since you here don't have the burrs completely filled with beans at all times. I'm rambling now, but It makes me wonder, If you would have a continuous feed of beans down the grinder, allowing for better self centring. And ground 100 grams, and take out 20g "in the middle" are that ground/grind? different ?
I got your long wobbly shaft right here buddy ;) Just kidding. The shaft could be attached with rag joints depending on how the burrs/bearings are set in the housing. It'd be interesting to see an exploded diagram of this unit. I've always wondered why they use the motor/transmission for setting the inside cone on conical burr sets instead of setting them inside of a bearing with preload vertically. A preload shaft on tapered roller bearings seems the best way to do this and I don't know jack about designing this kind of thing, I've just worked on a lot of different style machines.
@@scottleggejr 😁 Yes, preloaded conical is the way. Or heck, have all the Nerds loose it completely ! Rotate the outer burr instead, held in place by twin conical bearings, driven via a toothed belt, see now I also solved the Torque issue ! Pls send me 5000 USD when implemented 😋
@@stirfryjedi Now let's see it with the build quality/precision/service-life of a weber and we're talking. Although, I'm not a fan of belts. Let's see some swiss timepiece brass gears instead. I'm sure it's a minefield of patents, copyrights, methods, and the like to make any home appliance, which might be holding innovation back for many of us. I've never understood why we don't have 1-2 motors in a home that'll run a mixer, blender, food processor, vacuum, blow dryer, circular saw, reciprocating saw, jigsaw, leaf blower, etc. you could port from device to device to device with a variable transmission to set input/output speeds and an ISO standard of the appliance splines or whatever. I have FAR too many motors in my kitchen alone, all garbage export quality when you dig in to them.
Your comment about Weber's response to your complaints matches with a lot of people say about Weber's customer service. I often hear that they're not very helpful and tend to put blame on the customer first. I knew someone who bought their HG-1 and it was way too hard to grind. When he reached out to Weber Workshops, they at first told him he must've done something wrong. After some back and forth, they were able to finally get the issue resolved, but it seems frustrating that a company fetching for such premium prices doesn't do as much QC as one would like and who is quick to point the finger back at the customer. Those points would make me choose Kafatek over Weber for end game grinders as they test each and every grinder before shipping out and seem a lot nicer when communicating with customers.
I just watched this for the second time and just noticed the Sir Mix-a-Lot line you snuck in there - “it’s a big but and I cannot lie” (10:16) - very good! And I’m sticking with my Niche.
Thank you my friend! I appreciate that, and it’s what I aim for. Of course, this was just my personal experience. Curious to hear from others as more land on counters.
Every new grinder that comes out convinces me the Niche is just amazing. What a perfect product design. It's easy to underestimate how good it is but when anyone else does a single dose grinder it just has so many small annoyances.
@@MattHarris85 People seem to really like the workflow of the Niche. i heard somebody wish they could buy the Niche dosing cup. made me curious what's so much better about even the cup. meanwhile I'm considering a Comandante eventually with red Clix, versus a 1zpresso K-max. fur both pour-over/clever and to keep using, eventually, for espresso, as soon as I can afford an espresso maker. meanwhile I'm using a humble mokapot, and warning up milk on stove. it often surprises me how satisfying it turns out. but resting the beans and WDT make a noticable difference even at this low level. one praise for all the virus lockdowns: they really raised the home coffee brewing expertise, I think.
If I designed and brought a product to market, I really admire how well they did the Niche. probably the Comandante too, though I wish it could be faster and have grind setting numbers like the K-Max.
I have a HG2. I believe it is the same as the Key, but hand grinding. I quite like it - it is my go-to for espresso. It is certainly not perfect, but I have had very good shots from it.
I have an HG-2 and Key at the moment, the HG-2 seems to produce a little smoother straight shots but very similar at comparable RPMs. The difference may be due to the HG-2 having more seasoning or perhaps could be due to slight differences in the alignment but I'm hoping it's seasoning. Not much reason to get the Key over the HG-2 if you already got the HG2. Advantages of the KEY are speed of grinding (higher RPM capability) less effort, and it also takes up less space. Higher RPM does add a little more body / intensity maybe, which results in less flavour clarity, but likely adds more fines and makes grind quality technically worse, It might be slightly better for milk drinks but never really is as 'conical' like with high body and low clarity as you might expect from a conical grinder.
Hey Spro, I'm a long time HG-1 user and have the TiN burr set. I can say that it's taken some real time to season them. But it's well worth it imo. At the 8:30 mark of your video, your inner burr looks wonky. Maybe it's the video or the coffee built up on the burr. But it doesn't look right to me. Keep up the great content!
They KEY, like the EG-1, is a disruptive product that will certainly create waves in the industry. I have also been using one for about a month, and I can say it’s gotten better by the day and blows away any other grinder I’ve used (except maybe the EG-1). The build quality will probably outlast me, and it’s a joy to look at and use. I’m also a professional photographer and have posted a bunch of content based around it on my channel as well. Thanks!
Thanks for the review sprometheus. Really appreciate you staying level headed, not rushing the review or rushing to pass judgment. Considering the pedigree and price of the unit, I have to say I am surprised at the inconsistencies you've shown especially in terms of "driveshaft" alignment (do they have to build them with a bit of give maybe?) and lackluster torque in the lower rpms. If the specs are such that 70% of the rpms are not able to run without snags for the intended brew method then it's truly baffling why they would even be available to choose. I was under the impression WW were not creating products with a main focus on cost cutting but it really seems the issues you've found are pointing to that conclusion. I hope it breaks in for you (somehow), and that you get your money's worth!
Thank you so much for your feedback, Asa! We truly appreciate the time and care you took to create a review on the KEY Coffee Grinder. As you and I discussed, while verifying your machine is configured correctly, the burrs will still take some time to become adequately seasoned - an inherent aspect of burrs machined to this caliber, designed to last for decades of heavy home use (even when pre-seasoned.) We’re confident you’ll love it more with each passing day of use and look forward to seeing this expressed in any follow-up impressions you do in the coming months. As for the lower RPM stalls, a brushless motor will inherently have less torque at lower RPMs, but the grinder should be able to grind any drinkable coffee at any grind size from the mid RPM range. ‘Stalling’ actually acts as a protection mechanism so your motor doesn’t burn out - part of our way of ensuring it lasts decades. We could limit the lower end of RPMs, but that would mean that medium roasts and pour-overs wouldn’t be able to explore the super-slow grind profiles that we think is interesting and unexplored territory. We think it makes it more powerful as a tool, even if it requires a little more ‘gas’ to grind through harder/lighter beans. It’s essential to us to have an open dialogue with our customers, so please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have further questions!
I thought the shaft wasn't supposed to have run-out when grinding? Wasn't this the problem you were solving in this design? Many light test videos showing shaft being off center. Wouldn't this contribute to uneven grind consistency?
@@thejackpotjake Surely the "issue" here is that the Key is apparently the only conical grinder extant where you can get line-of-sight view of the gap, right? This was a feature to enable easy cleaning - but also allows anyone to shine a light through. I think the benefits of ease-of-cleaning are really immense. From what I can ascertain, the downside to a few microns of visible wobble is negligible as it doesn’t change the quality of the ground coffee.
My $500.00 drill press with a six inch quill travel has less than 3 thousands runout on a fourteen inch shaft, which is nearly unnoticeable to the naked eye. There's always going to be runout, but for a two grand$$ grinder I'd expect the runout to be better than a $500.00 drill press made in Taiwan.
Three thousandths is 75 microns, and his shaft is 10 microns runout. As far as we know we’re the only grinder manufacturer that tracks this data, let alone correlates it to every serial number.
Re the stalling. Sounds like you're just trying to play off a bug as a feature. Why not just admit the motor is not spec'd to generate enough torque to cope at the lower RPMs the grinder was designed for. Respect your customers and stop treating them like idiots.
Do you think the Mk 2 would change your opinion on the Key (since it seems to address many issues like power, alignment, etc)? Or, do you think you'd feel more or less the same?
After using my Key for a while I am surprised no one has mentioned it's not easy to determine if the grinder is set for Espresso or Drip like the Niche. Turning the adjustment ring a full turn to go to drip seems like a lot of work. Recently picked up a bag of beans that had a blend of medium and light roast beans. After grinding an Espresso size dose, I could not turn the grind adjustment ring. The burrs were totally stuck together. Even running the grinder at full speed did not free up the adjustment ring. Had to work the outside burr holder back and forth to free u the burrs. UPDATE; The stuck adjustment ring was caused by grinding very fine and slow and not finishing grinding the dose. Running the grinder at maximum speed at the end of the grinding session will clear the burrs so they can be adjusted.
Thank you so much for your honest review. If I could turn back time definetly I'd not want to be a part of this project and ordered one. I feel ashamed I've back this project since day one. It has been number one disappointed purchase and worst experience I ever had (I still waiting for mine to arrive which not sure when I will get it) As WBWS told everyone he lives in Japan but to me looks like he never learned anything at all from Japan especially service mind and the concept of customer first, including honesty. Take care and thanks again for your honest review 😊 👍 I'm a big fan of your work.
I tried it for a month and unsatisfied. Very week motor which doesn’t give you all options with daily stalling not only with light but also with medium roasts at 70 RPM or less. Noisy but well functioning motor is better than quite but malfunctioning one.
Thanks for the honest review. I've probably ground 5kg of beans through it and it has started to break in but, still hard to remain consistent with volumetrics. Well, it's probably "pre-seasoned" in WW's context, but it's just as painful as when I got the HG1. Everything you've mentioned in your review, it's similar to my experience except the magic tumbler. RDT and removing the WDT wire works best. You'd probably want to just twist and remove the plunger and shake the grounds into the basket. You'll definitely get more grounds sticking to the standard funnel (if you ordered it). The shaft play, now this I would keep monitoring for the next few months. Again, thanks for the review.
I don't own a key but I have used a friend's and loved everything about it. From the aesthetic to the workflow to the coffee that it produced. Granted, I already use a magic tumbler, rdt and leveler so for me it felt like a tailored suit. It was all second nature. The issue with light roast @ low rpm issue would never affect me. You can spec a larger motor but then the price of an already expensive grinder grows. It's hard to imagine it as the deciding factor in many people's decision making process but I suppose its worth mention. The variance in one grind step is the most concerning complaint but its worth noting others have done the same one step test without the wide variance you got. Perhaps something was knocked out of place in shipping or maybe it just needed a bit more time. I know that the factory is very thorough about checking every unit but mistakes can happen especially with the earliest units. If that was the case it's very unfortunate, but it seems like you weren't in love with the rest of the experience so perhaps it wasn't meant to be. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to spend even half what a Key costs on a grinder but it seems to me at that point its a lot like buying hifi. Some want vintage tube amps and some want vintage solid state amps and still others want the newest state of the art equipment. You can argue about what sounds the best the same way you can argue about which grinder produces the best coffee but it's very subjective. In the end the only thing that matters is how the experience connects to the individual.
You’re welcome, but I urge those who maybe are concerned they will suffer the same fate to come into it with an open mind. Machines can vary widely, so maybe yours will be perfect out of the box?
Just ordered my Niche,upgrading from a cuisinart haha. And even though I’m not at a point where I want to spend $2k on a grinder yet, it’s nice to hear the Niche can hang with the big boys. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I’m looking forward to seeing what espresso machine you get next.
I think this is more of a case of a grinder trying to hang with the big boys but failing. I don’t think any other grinder at this price point would have a burr shaft as misaligned as this. That’s not to say the niche doesn’t outperform it’s category though!!
@@dan110024 The Niche doesn't stall, the Niche has the lowest retention out of any electric grinder I've seen, cleanest, best UX, low noise, quick, best grind adjustment mechaism, easy to clean and align... That 5% extra clarity and 1300 bucks dont compensate imo🤪🤪🤪. Monolith conical crushes the key it seems, if i had 2k+ for a grinder.
I upgraded from the cuisinart to an Eureka Mignon Perfetto (for 2 months) while I waited on my niche, and now that I have my niche let me just say, be prepared for worlds better coffee. The grind quality compared to the cuisinart is insane. Can’t believe I put up with mine for 4 years before upgrading.
@@UberInformer dude im so excited to hear that haha. I’ve been a HUGE coffee lover for years and after a long time of making due it’s finally time for me to get real coffee gear.
It says a lot about the Niche that all new single dosing grinders get compared to it. For me, its strength is it's utter simplicity (yes I own one, so not completely unbiased). I can't help but think other companies are trying too hard to add features or trying to reinvent the wheel to differentiate themselves and just end up over complicating things. The Weber Key looks like just such a grinder.
I've updated my preference for using the tumbler now, after trying a few different things. I've found the magic tumbler with the METAL lower burr holder (not the plastic ones with wiper arm or WDT paper clip thing attached) I found that works best for me. The paperclip dangling in a different position every time was annoying and usually got hit flinging coffee and bending the WDT tool so it's not great workflow wise for me, so I disregard it, I just use WDT needle tool afterwards, I don't use RDT (water spraying) sometimes with some coffees (especially at higher RPM) it will stick to the edges of the Tumbler, just a little tap and it usually falls down easy. I use a WDT needle tool, you can do it through the bottom opening of the tumbler or use your favorite funnel/collar (I put that underneath the tumbler, it works fine that way) so when you remove the tumbler the funnel is already in place, you do your WDT tap down and you're ready to tamp.
Hey, I had a few issues myself but I have a few things to say that may help your experience. I appreciate your thoughts on seasoning anyway, and I think I will also throw some old beans through it. What setting should I use, my standard espresso setting? Or finer or coarser? I won't comment on taste as I am probably not qualified and that is such a subjective subject. Ok to touch on your comment about the WDT and the tumblers: I agree the WDT was a bit eh... but honestly that wasn't a big selling feature for me in the first place, as I only have a 49mm basket machine, and a 54mm basket machine. So I got the standard tumbler and cone as well as the Magic tumbler. I have played around with both and here is what I think you should try so far, don't bother with the WDT wiper, or the Wiper that comes with the Standard. I actually think the grounds come out better without that WDT mod and I have not been getting any visible channeling without doing any WDT at all. Now the wiper that comes with the standard tumbler and cone is actually pretty sweet, and if I was using the Cremina only then I would leave it in, but I am also using a 54mm basket machine, and the dosing funnel just happens to fit the magic tumbler perfect and I wanted to try it. This way, you can swap the cone on and off and go back and forth to either tumbler for awhile until you get an idea of what you prefer without taking off the bottom burr. When you use the cone with no wiper, just be sure to tap the cone a few times before you grab the tumbler, I found this tap not needed if the wiper is installed. OK that brings me to my next point about the bottom burr and not taking it out. I had the same issue you had with the slight wobble light test. Here is what I found, the first time I did this I got lucky I guess and just took it off and put it back on and then it was perfect, no wobble. Later when I removed it again, it took me about 5 or 6 times of loosening the nut, then retighten - check - rinse and repeat. But there must be just a hair of play in that burr shaft and eventually I got it perfect. Now, this isn't fixing the issue, and it would obviously be better if it wasn't required BUT when you get it right it seems to be perfect. The annoying part is that it makes me not want to take off the burr very often, and it will mean I clean it out less than I assumed I would being so easy to remove. But such is life, nothing is perfect. Bottom line, I think the standard tumbler and cone is great, fits 49mm and 58mm, and then you could grind into basically anything, you could actually probably leave the cone wiper without the WDT attached at all times now that I think of it, just wouldn't really do anything if the magic tumbler was on. I may do this. But tighten that burr and make note of the shaft key so you know how you are holding the burr each time you tighten it, I think you will get it perfect. I have also never had mine jam and I have had it on slowest this whole time with nothing darker than medium so far, crazy I haven't heard that... maybe Ill bump up my speed a little to avoid it hahaha. Hope that helps, I agree its not perfect but I think its the best looking and coolest grinder I have had. I also have never used a Niche, but its nice to hear you prefer the taste of the Key anyhow.
thanks for all this info. i have the HG-2 but the design is very similar and a lot of your tumbler info transfers over to the HG-2. in my experience, and bare in mind this is the HG-2 where im grinding whatever rate i can by hand, maybe 1/2 revolution per second. nevertheless, in my experience, the magic tumbler WDT helped more with collecting the grounds nicely and uniformly into the tumbler. once they fall into the basket upon lifting the stopper, true WDT is still prudent (at least in my experience). the magic tumbler also seemed to keep my mess of grounds more contained than the standard tumbler, but not by much. one last thing around alignment and swapping wipers: perhaps the HG2 is different enough but I never had to take out the bottom burr, i just had to lay grinder horizontal and unscrew a bottom concentric bolt.
Thanks for this review. As someone who also has a LMLM and a niche I wanted to upgrade to a higher end grinder, and was looking forward to your evaluation of the key. Ultimately, I preordered a Monolith MC4, but was debating as to whether the key would be the better option (mc4 only $150 more after Weber air shipping). Your review was helpful in alleviating those concerns, although I truly hope Weber gets you sorted. It seems that the arm coming down into the burrs may be causing the largest issues, but who knows. Perhaps Weber will send you a new unit to test. Anyway, keep up the great content!
You’re welcome and thanks for watching. I’ve heard great things about the Monolith, and maybe I’ll go that route in the future. It seems I’m back in the grinder prowl at the moment looking for the next best option. I really am looking to invest in one and be done. Haha.
@@Sprometheus That’s my goal as well, to have a one and done. I think mono might be the next step up, but their TOTL flat (max) is about the same price as an EG1. James Hoffman reviewed both in his end game showdown and preferred the EG1. From the conical perspective, The mc4 is a duo burr conical, which is a newer design and supposed to have more clarity than a traditional conical. I’m hoping the taste between the niche is apparent to warrant the difference, or I may end up selling my unit when I get it in the summer. Anyway, perhaps contact Kafatek for a review unit. Denis the founder is very responsive and they’re based out of Seattle.
Almost 3 times the price of the Niche. Also, I'm a machinist, millwright and Marine Engineer. Stating that the burr is self centering is a crock. A shaft that long requires support in the form of a bearing. I predict a close look at grind size will show wild inconsistencies especially oncoarser settings. The beans shouldn't have the job of self centering the burrs LoL 😕 I'm happy with my Niche, but thanks.
I suppose it depends on why you bought the Key. I bought the HG-2 pre-sale and got it a good while ago. I've had a lot of time to learn how the alignment works and how seasoning differences manifested themselves. But my whole purpose of buying the HG-2 wasn't for any of the fancy stuff or even build quality. I just wanted those big, high-quality burrs that are usually locked up in $2k-3k territory. So, in my view, I still got a good deal because my focus was solely on getting the highest quality conical burr for the cheaper price. Thanks for the review, Spro!
Indigogo campaigns never turn out as advertised. I have backed 4 projects from indigogo - 3/4 never arrived and the other one was significantly different to described. I will never back a project again.
Same here. Also, while I didn't have a problem with the delays or WW's communication, the gaslighting in some responses from Indiegogo reps to what were IMO very reasonable questions from backers (back when IGG were replying to comments directly) really put me off as well. I'd be happy to buy directly from WW in future but definitely won't be backing any IGG campaigns.
I have been following you for a while and this is one of the most critical reviews you have done! I would be disappointed too with what you got for that price!
Really? Have you seen any of my reviews of Fellow’s recent stuff? Haha Regardless I did my best to make this as balanced as possible while still sharing my personal experiences, so I’m sure it does come off critical, but that’s where I’m at.
Oufffff, 8:29 shows quite some shaft wobble. A long shaft design + conical burrs are an engineer's nightmare lol. It is destined to wobble and it's a PITA to align. Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts on this! 💪
Yup.. my original HG-One also has a wobbling shaft and no way to align it. Still give pretty decent shots because it does auto-align when beans fill all around. If you really want uniformal grind, your only option is something like the Kafatek Monolith Flat Max, with a short shaft and tight CNC tolerances. Pay double too.
@@AnOtterCoffee nice!! I'm sure you'll be enjoying stellar shots with that machine. I'm waiting for the email when they open up orders for the Max, but still not sure because after shipping and taxes to Europe it will cost me 5000$ might as well buy a German product, the Titus Nautilus, seems pretty similar.
I am on the same boat. Hope the 2Q shipment gets all these issues fixed. I am still thinking about canceling though. Unless WW send out an update to clarify and justify these observations rather than brush off answers. I am not very happy about their replies to people’s questions, not very convincing. We will see. Thanks Sprometheus.
I’ve had my Key for almost 2 months now. The major complaint/problem that I don’t think can be resolved is that for light to medium light roasts, my grinder stalls when grinding espresso unless the beans are fed in slowly. This is at 70 RPM with The Leam Hammer as one example. For medium dark roasts, turn on the grinder, dump the beans in, wait a for it to grind through. For the lighter roasts, I’m continuously feeding the grinder slowly to keep it from stalling. I’d the chamber fills up it stalls, which appears to contradict the statement about the axle alignment.
I am with you, I am also very frustrated with the stalling on beans. It was one of those features that sold the grinder to me as I really wanted to explore that deeper, but this sort of throws that idea for a loop.
@@rc3443 umm, the burrs are definitely big, but saying they’re too big is an oversimplification and inherently incorrect. The grinder design has been around for ten years as a hand grinder and motorized adaptations have been done. Other grinders like the Option-O HSM use the same burr set. It is pretty clear that the chosen motor for this grinder is not providing enough torque for lighter roast espresso at all available RPMs for some of the shipped grinders for the use case of start the grinder, dump in the dose, and wait for it to finish grinding.
Haha, sometimes it does feel that way. But these are issues that arise with those who are early adopters. I’ll be curious to see the thoughts of others as more hit the streets.
I think these were issues they would have been apparent prior to release…at least if they were being responsible. Perhaps they decided to just see what they had the most pushback on before investing in addressing these issues? Feels like the first Apple Watch all over again. Personally this feels like the second to last final internal revision not what should have been released to consumers.
New Oro SD has been improved but still not perfect unfortunately. First edition I wouldn't recommend, 2nd 1.1 edition Eureka Oro SD is alright, but it seems like it works better without the bellows. They just added the bellows to check off a feature for marketing it seems, but Eureka doesn't seem to know how to design a good one.
Great review! You're the first reviewer that I've heard (to much frustration) compare the Niche and other high end grinders to manual grinders. It would be amazing to get a full review comparing a few of them.
You missed the thing I hate the most about that workflow. I owned a blind tumbler for a few weeks, and I quickly grew to hate the "cowbell" ringing before I've had any coffee in the morning! :)
Just received mine today - tried about 8 shots before I retired for the night. I had major channeling issues with each one (spraying and split streaming like crazy). At each stage, I made the grind finer and finer to reach my time window (27-32 sec) - with some sacrificial beans ground in between. I too am coming from a Niche and I was able to get it dialed in with little effort. My work flow on my Niche is: grind > top PF with funnel > invert grinds into PF > wdt > tap PF on counter > leveling tool > pull shot. With the weber standard tumbler, I tried with and without WDT and found no difference in channeling. I plan on trying again once I get my hands on more beans, but so far I'm not too happy about it.
Damn, but I am glad I went with the Kafatek monolinth instead of the Key. Granted the key is readily available, unlike the monolith which you have to wait for half the year to arrive, but once it does its basically set it and forget it.
The magic tumbler doesn’t need wdt. Its just that the grinds don’t fall evenly into the basket. i find if i put the tumbler on topic of a portafiler funnel to give it more headspace then it distributes better in the portafiler basket. Then a little shake to even the grounds and tamp.
Still looking forward to getting my Key... Considering here in Aus it's almost the same price as a niche the key seems so much higher end, and hopefully with a bit of seasoning it will be the last grinder I need to buy!
Really good review and stands apart as so many reviewers seem to be more fan-boy than pony-boy (what IS a pony- boy anyway? 🤷🏻♂️) I was humming and hawing over the Key for ages, but the fact that they got the launch price wrong (or changed it) so it went from $1500 to $2000) and the amount I would have had to pay in shipping and duties made me decide against in the end, and honest reviews like yours which show real attention to detail and ignore the hype make me think I made the right decision. Thanks for a great (and on point ) video.
Thank you my friend, and I haven’t watched any other reviews for the grinder purely to not let it sway my thoughts. It’s important to me to share my true, unadulterated experiences even if they differ from someone else. Haha I don’t know what a Ponyboy truly is, it’s just from The Outsiders, it’s a character.
… so many years? The Indiegogo campaign was started in 2017 :) Not that I dislike the NZ, have one. The HG-1 from 2015 is essentially the same design as the Key grinder (minus the motor).
@@zixzysm 4.5 years is pretty decent right for the competition to pull it's clutch up? Almost every Niche killer has 1-2 major flaws that could've logically ended at ideation stage.
@@subbieda But the Key was never a “Niche killer”. I don’t know where people get that. The Key is built as a direct development of their HG-1/HG-2. Which is a lot older than the Niche.
Ordered an Onyx back in June last year and they were supposed to be shipping in November I believe. So far, there's not even an ETA for Australian customers. It cost me around 2.5k AUD. I've never in my life paid for anything online only to receive it a year or so later. WW can blame supply chain and covid as much as they like but they should have given the customers a more realistic ETA. First and last time I ever buy anything from WW.
This video was very educational and honest. Too many coffee channels kiss ass but your channel goes to the top of believability. I would be very interested to see what you think of the Kafatek MC4. I own one so if you ever pass through NYC, you're welcome to take it through its paces.
Thank you David, and that’s the best possible comment/compliment I could receive. I really pride myself on providing a true and honest review of my personal experiences, I’m sure it’s not going to make me friends at Weber, but in the end this is channel is for my fellow coffee lovers, not the manufacturers and brands.
@@Sprometheus Yes, we viewers see the risk you're taking and appreciate it. Unfortunately, honesty has consequences. Of course, we all respect James Hoffmann but he beats around the bush too much. For now on I will come to this channel to see unvarnished truth. Keep it real.
The burrs wobbling from the shaft is a problem even on my key too. It absolutely doesn't sound like it was supposed to be this way so the beans self centering them is a lame excuse. Do you hear a noise when burrs are empty and on tight setting?
Yes I got noise and what seems friction sound after grinding on a high speed. I asked weber and told me that the key wasn’t designed to grind always on high speed. If you lower down to low speed below 70 RPM, you’ll get stalling.
Thanks for your honest review that once more reveals the engineering flaw of WW's HG/Key concept. A few years ago I also owned a HG1 Handgrinder and had similar issues with inconsistencies. After swapping out burrs with no improvement I got in touch with LW hoping to resolve my alignment troubles and, to my surprise, was also told that she shaft is self-centering. To be frank, that's complete bull****. It might be true in theory when you imagine all beans to be exactly the same in size and hardness AND distribution around the burrs. The reality however is that the shaft WILL flex under load due to the lack of a lower bearing - it's a simple physics equation and reveals a major engineering flaw. LW/WW have been well aware of this issue as I know first hand they have been approached by more than one person in the industry over the years - so, seeing the Key concept follow the footsteps of the badly engineered HG came to me as a bit of a surprise… The day I swapped my HG1 for a higher end grinder was when I realized how bad the HG really was (and that explicitly includes customer service). Real bummer since I really like their product's aesthetics.
@@revolutiondance1141 didn't want to disclose the route I went but let me say we have more than one choice in common. My coffee routine has changed from fiddling and worrying to just making amazing coffee without thinking.
I disagree that the shaft length is an engineering flaw because myself and many others use the HG-1 and consider it to be at the absolute peak of espresso quality. Plenty of others use a versalab and feel the same way. Perhaps you did get the initial model that wasnt possible to align manually, which was indeed a design flaw in their first iterations. It is a 1/2 inch stainless steel shaft with 2 big bearings. The amount of force required to displace that burr is enormous. If yours was bent, that sucks, but thats not a design fault, and mine has basically zero runout after many years of use.
@@Marklar0 On mine, if running at good speed with the burrs set for espresso grind just press on the running shaft lightly down by the burrs and I hear the burrs touch. The distance between the top bearings is small compared to the distance from the bottom bearing to the burrs, which means that any bearing play is multiplied by the distance from the bottom bearing to the burrs.
We have a Weber Key & Decent DE-1 XXL on their way to us & we're super excited. My wife & I prefer rich flavoured dark roasted beans & with the amazing brewing options that are open to us with Decent machine, I'll have the time f my life tweaking Decent XXL to coffee Nirvana.
I'm not sure I understand. If the extraction is lower, yet there less fines (I suspect the peak isn't lower as Niche's) you should push for a finer grind to achieve a higher extraction, despite the time the shot takes? Not hatin', askin'. Was a shot a touch finer with a touch higher extraction bitter and/or astringent? How come, if there's less fines? On paper this grinder, having less fines and less texture, should be able to achieve better extraction.
If a step finer makes it astringent and bitter, it makes the grinder useless as it doesn't have enough flexibility for shots and (I understand) it aims for spro, not drips.
The ceado e37z-hero had this grinder and others like it beat by almost a 5yr head start. Although 83mm flat burr, coated burrs, and adjustable rpm from 600 to 1500. The trade off is it $5000 to $6000 price tage
Lolll that wobble in the burrs!!! 100% that’s your inconsistency issue. And it’s so obvious when you look up at it around 8:50. The fact you can easily see it on camera without even trying to look shows how bad it is.
I was keen to watch this as I’ve already been using my Key for close to two months now. Initial bedding-in is, I feel, inevitable and this accounts for slight grind inconsistencies at first. Like becoming acquainted with any mechanical device there is an iterative/trail-and-error process which cannot be bypassed unless each and every product is extensively “dyno-tested” before shipping……..but then it wouldn’t be new, would it! Expecting a perfect grind, suited to your extraction setup straight out-of-the-box, is just unreasonable and pedantic in the extreme. The simpatico relationship between human and machine is something to savour as this is what creates that rarified feeling of deeply bonding with a device. I am making the most delicious coffee I’ve ever made, thanks to the Key, and I’m loving every aspect of owning and using it. Call me biased; I’ll roll with that! 😊
Ah yes, so let me set you straight here. 1. I’m well aware of break-in/seasoning, but advertised out of box usability and pre-seasoning didn’t live up to the expectations they created. 2. My expectations are not unreasonable. I’ve owned multiple new grinders, but a 20g gap with a one notch movement is not a “slight grind inconsistency”. 3. I’m glad to hear you’re enjoying it. I’m glad you’re making the best coffee you’ve ever had. But discounting others opinions and experiences as wrong or invalid based on your own experience isn’t a good look.
@@Sprometheus Well, that's what this comments forum is for... I like good design, well-made products and good coffee ~ the Key more than ticks all of those boxes for me. 💯
@@Sprometheus it is quite impressive how the Niche continues to hold its ground in the mid range grinder tier. And that is very true. Plus I really don’t see myself abandoning those two grinders any time soon
I used this grinder after a period of 4 months and I faced many problems. On low rpm like 70 rpm or less with Light to medium roast coffee stopped suddenly the burr hard to rotate. If the grinder does not turned off from the main switch without using above 3 hours , and when you want to use it, it will not work.
I enjoyed this being a longer video and a two parter. The backstory of your personal investment was nice too. Weber; this isn’t good enough, we expect better from you. Keep putting out things like this and you’re going from the front of the pack to just another company that makes good looking but pretty average coffee accoutrement. Make a v2 of this now and make an upgrade kit available at a discount for the first wave of owners.
Thanks Fenton, and yeah I’m a little torn on longer videos, they require so much more time to put together. I literally uploaded this one last night at 2am, haha. At this point I’m more or less just going to work on the grinder solo, see how it comes along, and then possibly resell it at a loss in a couple months.
@@Sprometheus best of luck and I think we’d all like an update video aka that part 3 when you have reached a conclusion and recovered from the more stressful production. Hopefully next time one of your videos is so long is because of something exceeding your expectations. 🙂☕️
Great review - given your issues, I’d be having buyer’s remorse also. 2k is a significant step up from the usual suspects, and far too many “issues” for me to consider this.
Thank you for this video! I’ve been looking forward to this one. I have some questions and comments that I hope you’re willing to indulge. For the light gap shot; interesting. I suppose the “wobble” that you’re observing is a result of the shaft runout + plus error in burr concentricity. It’s remarkable that such a small variation is visible to the human eye. You mentioned at 6:50 that the shaft is slightly askew, do you think that’s causing any of the wobble? I wonder what the burrs in other conical grinders look like when they’re running. Have you been able to take a look at any in your niche or other conical grinders that you’ve used in the past, and if so how do they compare? If the error in burr concentricity is larger than the shaft runout I’d have a hard time blaming Weber. Not that any blame needs to be assigned, I wonder if it actually matters; does it make a difference in coffee quality? Thanks spro ✌️
Mine does the same thing, a very slight wobble is noticeable when light is shinning through, Weber says that's normal like 5 micron runout or whatever their standards are (i forget the details) and that it's just easier to see it vs other grinders (which is true) and I'd argue it's not ideal however, the grinder is working very nicely producing very good results, it is higher clarity and lower body than you'd expect from a large conical burr. I think taste profile is similar the 1zPresso K-plus which is very good as well (i'll need to do more testing / comparison) but from the few comparison shots I've done I noticed the Key gives smoother results, K plus I think has more fines so has more bitterness/harshness.
Very nice, detailed review. Thirty pounds of coffee is a years supply for me lol. The burrs and build quality look amazing, sorry to hear it is not as perfect in the cup. My consumption of coffee is low enough that I can easily hand grind all my beans, so I will stick with that. I do secretly want a Niche, but unwilling to spend for it.
Thanks Jaime! And yeah, 30lbs is a massive amount of coffee, and likely your average persons yearly amount. As a roaster I have the fortunate ability yo stockpile old beans for occasions like this.
I'm averaging using upwards of 100 lbs. yearly for espresso only and hand grind 95% of the time. Still find it hilarious there is so much fuss over the electric grinder fad when a quality hand grinder is all one really needs for ANY home use.
I think if I’m someone already ready to drop $2k on a Key grinder I’d rather go for the full-fat EG-1. Yes it’s double the price, but is also renowned and established-and doesn’t come with compromises or growing pains that you mentioned. Otherwise I’d save a stimmy and get the Niche. (Anything would be an upgrade from my breville grinder lol) Thanks for always being honest!
Is it possible to remove the center piece of the tumbler, mount it and just stick a portafilter underneath? With maybe a short pf funnel on top to avoid any mess? Grinding directly this way may improve the wf. I do not have a Key but this might work.
So I did try that. The burrs are wider than my and most funnels, so you need to use a built in funnel, like then tumbler without the bottom. The magic tumbler is too big, so the portafilter fils up and it’s a mess to get it out. That’s why I would recommend the Standard tumbler option, which is essentially a funnel, then you gain a lot of headroom for the portafilter. Then all you need is a low profile magnetic portafilter stand below and you’re in business.
I agree, this review kept me from buying it. I’m still very doubtful of what grinder to choose. Should I go for the Niche, the Timemore or something totally different? I’m curious @Sprometheus, where is part III :)? Thank you for all your efforts.
Apologies if it has already been covered below. The Weber Key using the Standard Tumbler should have come with a magnetically attached funnel which fits in the same place as the Magic Tumbler. I notice in your video at 8.29 mins that this is missing. Granted, there is still a gap, but the splutter and spray is considerably reduced. If this was missing from your order with the Standard Tumbler perhaps Weber Workshops will send you one and you can then revisit your review and make corrections as necessary.
I think you may have lost the plot somewhere. I have the magic tumbler, not the standard. During the video I mention that, and say I would’ve got the standard had I done it again since you can’t really do much outside of using the tumbler with the magic option. No need to make corrections.
@@Sprometheus I accept your point. However the video still implies grounds spreading all over the place, which if used in accordance with the makers instructions does not happen. NB. I have owned a Key since January 6th with both the Standard and Magic Tumbler so I do have some informed input without any commercial interes,t either with WW or Youube.
@@everhopefulalways4390 okay, you aren’t getting it. I said in the video, you have no other options for dosing cups and all that because of the way the grinder is designed, so you have to use one of their options. I’m not sure how you’re missing this.
@@Sprometheus I get why this is important to you as a youtuber who has a financial incentive to not be locked into a certain way of doing puck prep. It cuts you off from products that you can create content with. But I imagine the reason why most people are buying Weber Workshop grinders is that they consider the whole experience (pre and post-grinding, cleaning etc) and not just the actual grinding. If you want a grinder that you can use all these other options with why would you choose the one grinder that doesn't allow it?
The work flow from the key seems awkward, the way you have to pull the cup at an angle away from the machine after grinding. No step less adjustments, the tiny dose cup, the static, the mess. It might look nice but it feels like a hassle in practice. (niche owner)
Hey Spro! Thank you so much for this review, I was really looking forward to it. As already stated in your „Shorts“, I also got tons of spray with my Key and I was quite frustrated how inconsistent my shots where. I am probably through 2kg (4.4 pounds) and it is getting better, but it is yet far from perfect. My spindle is straight, but I also can see from the top, that the inner burr is having a tiny play. I guess this is the „self centering“ you mentioned? Additional WDT helps, but you still have to be thoroughly. I will test further and eventually remove the paperclip at all - so it is easier to clean. If you need something that I, or others should test, just reach out. Thank you again!
Hey! Yeah it’s definitely slowly getting better, I’m now at about 20ish lbs, shots are still messy. I am curious to sift the beans soon, I just didn’t have the energy to do it in this video, and the results I was getting more or less spoke for themselves. I have since removed the WDT as it seems like it was more of a pain than an assist. Definitely keep me informed how things progress for you, if you aren’t already following me on IG it’s definitely the best place to share those kinds of things on.
@@Sprometheus I guess I have to create an IG account then. Haha alright … I will blame you for doomscrolling all night long. :P I am also curious for James‘ review, as Kyle also dropped his today. I don’t have the Kruve sifters, but this also popped into my mind. I did some amateur eyeball comparison with my K-Plus. Soooo … I will probably get some cheap beans from the supermarket tomorrow and don’t stop grinding. :-)
Today I discovered that the burrs touching point isn’t stable. The point was at #5 for example and after grinding it moves to #3 Thats why when I use the same coffee & recipe. It is different from day to day. I ground a coffee at #12 yesterday but I got the same cup at #8 today. Very inconsistent…
Your comment that it might not be that much better of a result than from a high quality hand grinder... You might have just thrown that in to help us budget-challenged brewers feel closer to the big leagues, or you might really mean it. Either way, heartfelt thanks! That helps. Do you have in mind the Comandante as that high Q hand grinder? Or a K-Max? I'm hoping to upgrade and want great grounds for Clever, Moka Pot, and hopefully soon either Picopresso or Flair 58. Have you ever brewed with a Bellman (Taylor and Ng) CX-25P? Decades back it was the closest I found locally and affordably to proper Italian espresso/cappuccino. (I since gave it to a friend though.) Really appreciate your videos. The 60 second ones are great between other clips in a playlist. You probably realize that, but I wanted you to know. Decades of drinking it, but I don't think I truly appreciated the gorgeousness of a bottomless portafilter until about the third time I saw one in your vids. Which is what's got me chasing a Pico or Flair. Which do you suggest for me, Comandante or K-Max (1Zpresso)?
Not an answer to your question, but FWIW I've been using my Comandante with my Alex Leva for a few months while waiting for the Key. I'd strongly recommend the 'red clix' burr adjustment upgrade as the large steps with the default setup can be a bit frustrating, but otherwise it's done a stellar job as an espresso grinder. Getting grinds into the portafilter is a bit inelegant (I guess the cool kids call this 'workflow' these days), but otherwise an 18g dose is easy to grind in about a minute and a half.
@@maaaatt Thank you. I've heard the Comandante "holds its value" well. meaning when your awesome grinder comes in you likely could sell your Comandante at not so much less than you paid. though I also heard people later feeling regret they'd sold it. by inelegant do you mean the grinds get stuck inside the rim of the receptacle, or is the receptacle too wide to put the upside down portability on top then flip them? is it hard effort, bumpy start and stop grinding where you feel the "potholes", so to speak, for a minute and a half? or could it be a cool, sort of satisfying way to wake up while making that first cup of the day?
@@maaaatt just looked up Alex Leva. I'm jealous! I'm meanwhile trying to talk myself into a Flair 58! for some of the pre-infusion, and pressure profiling options. but mostly as the cheapest way into a 58mm portafilter. which you can have precise control, albeit manual, even as to a Decent, swap in a VST basket, all manner of "pro" gear. and pro extraction results. the "Barista Tingles", in other words. but without the hassle of preheating. only, it means continuing to struggle with slightly overheated milk on the stove. somehow I'm not wanting to go for a semi auto machine even though I could find one the price of the Flair. Alex Leva sounds like an endgame machine! Comandante each click adjusts 30microns. red Clix 15microns. would 15 be enough to carefully precisely dial in? and what do you think about the 1zpeesso K-Max which uses burrs similar geometry to Comandante (heptagonal) but slightly larger, too grind 18gms in about 40 seconds. supposedly tastes fairly close to Comandante. but easier grind adjustment with etched numbers instead of counting clicks. each adjustment 22 microns. hallway between the default Com. and the red Clix. would it be enough finer adjust to precisely dial in? there's no "RedClix-like" option to improve it to 15 microns per.
@@aryehh7128 I have no doubt I could sell my five year old Comandante - and even less doubt that I'd regret it! Though part of the idea of backing the Key was that I might be able to switch back between espresso and filter; I think the convenience of having separate grinders will likely win out. Paying a bit more attention over the last few days, my main complaint with manual grinding is the lack of grip, which is an issue with all the hand grinders I've used. Grinding at filter coarseness this is really only an issue with really light roasts. The 1zPresso looks like it might address this issue a bit better, at the expense of aesthetics, but it would equally be easy to add a silicone sleeve to any hand grinder. Static is really only a minor complaint; typically about
Was the magnet at the bottom of the magic tumbler skewed that way from Day 1? That looks really sloppy. (And I wasn't trying to make a sloped pun until I read that.)
@@BensCoffeeRants what is the substance of the conflict? Is there somewhere that the Key excels above the P64? Do you prefer the conical burrs to the flats?
@@ericanderson1753 I like both I don't find these conical burrs dramatically different than flats. But there are some advantages and disadvantages to each grinder. Unimodal burrs in the p64 are the highest clarity but lack body and richness of the key.
@@BensCoffeeRants you can change the burrs on Lagom to 64 mm High Uniformity which will give you more transitional style shots with thick body. Or you can get newly released SSP lab sweet style burrs or you can wait while Lagom finishes their Lab Sweet style burrs Also, Option-O, compared to Weber, doesn't try to put the blame on you for not using their product right when they are objectively defective or on the burr manufacturer which they chose and have not tested. Option-O has great customer service which resolved all issues I had.
You have confirmed my concerns with the Key. I guess it’s not an upgrade for my Niche! I had read some rumors Niche was working on a larger burr upgrade to its Niche grinder. Have you heard any such rumors? I love my Niche. I also have a DF64 with SSP High uniformity espresso burrs which have been a little disappointed mainly with the coffee clogging in the chute. I have added every modification that exists for the DF64 to make the work flow better but still the Niche is my preference. For now I am keeping both the Niche and the DF64 since they complement each other. If I had to keep only one it is clearly the Niche! I love my Niche! The DF64 with the SSP high uniformity espresso burrs and the modification is a good grinder but still not perfect. It produces more clarity than the Niche but I love the full body I get from the Niche that is missing in the DF64. I love the EG-1 but it’s very large and would have a had time getting to fit in my limited counter space. Maybe the P-100 might be the upgrade for the DF64? I am in no hurry to change my grinder but keeping an eye open. For now my Niche is going nowhere! The DF64 might be a different story!
You’ve got a whole army of grinders! Haha, I haven’t tried the DF64 yet, but I do want to try it eventually. I haven’t heard this about Niche, but it would make sense. They have a lot to live up to though, so they better do their due diligence on a new grinder or upgrade before releasing something. More or less I’m back on the grinder prowl, so we’ll see what I come up with in the future.
I doubt you'll find 98mm burrs to be an upgrade in mouth feel, especially if you prefer the Niche to the 64mm HU. I say just enjoy the Niche, it's endgame espresso imo for those that enjoy that thick syrupy mouth feel
Thanks for the review. I was considering the Key as it seemed like a forgiving grinder for espresso. I’ll stick with the P64 for filter and EG1 with core burrs then.
Great review, for me I have not had any issue with shot time and each dot move the time a couple of seconds and I have not done any seasoning. Are u sure all your trst were in same rpm? ,, from my experience rpm plays a huge role in shot time and even more in taste.
Yes, when testing I only adjust one variable at a time. In this case it was only grind size. But like I've reiterated in other comments, these issues are likely not on every grinder.
maybe im dumb but whats the point in measuring the extraction as part of the brewing process for the grinder, when you should be able to change the extraction by manipulating variables other than what grinder youre using
For espresso, the general rule of thumb is to have an extract time of 25-30 seconds with a 1:2 - 1:2.5 bean to extraction weight, and minor modification to dial the acidity/boldness. Tuning the grind size is by far the most common and standard way to archive that. If the minimal change step cause an extract time to change from 26 sec to 40 sec, it means the "other variables" I need to change is either the bean weight by up/down dose of 1/5, or changing the pressure of the pump etc. which both have very serious impact on the resulting espresso.
I have the EG1 and also experienced some block while grinding some light roasts at low speeds...not often but it did happen. Love my EG1, way too expensive but I think that there is more appeal to it than the key. Not sure why but I am ok to pay 4500 euros (with import taxes) for the EG1, not 2000 for they key (niche seems good enough although not as stylish)
I've not had a chance to see this review, however, after watching it-I don't understand why Weber came at you the way they did. I felt like this was a fair, honest, personal review where you raised valid concerns and critiques.
Thank you for the detailed, honest review. I would not be nearly as positive if it had been my $2000.
You’re welcome, and honestly, happy to do it. I was very hopeful about this grinder being the last one I’ll ever buy, not quite as hopeful now. Thanks for watching!
For 2k this is borderline broken.
Hand grinder for 2000 lol
As an engineer I tell you, that TIN coating is hard, really hard.
In my book, It should not be possible to get a difference depending how much you put through the burrs.
TIN coatings are often used for metal machining tools, to get an even harder surface than the hardened steel it self.
So even high altitude light roast, are soft as marshmallows.
With that said, if you see that the golden tint are wearing off, that's probably down to burr clinching.
Having only seen this video, again as an engineer, I'm surprised by the long wobbly shaft, you would need pretty sturdy bearings to make that work.
And really don't by the "self centring" theory.
Especially when single dosing, since you here don't have the burrs completely filled with beans at all times.
I'm rambling now, but It makes me wonder, If you would have a continuous feed of beans down the grinder, allowing for better self centring.
And ground 100 grams, and take out 20g "in the middle" are that ground/grind? different ?
I got your long wobbly shaft right here buddy ;) Just kidding. The shaft could be attached with rag joints depending on how the burrs/bearings are set in the housing. It'd be interesting to see an exploded diagram of this unit. I've always wondered why they use the motor/transmission for setting the inside cone on conical burr sets instead of setting them inside of a bearing with preload vertically. A preload shaft on tapered roller bearings seems the best way to do this and I don't know jack about designing this kind of thing, I've just worked on a lot of different style machines.
@@scottleggejr 😁 Yes, preloaded conical is the way.
Or heck, have all the Nerds loose it completely !
Rotate the outer burr instead, held in place by twin conical bearings, driven via a toothed belt, see now I also solved the Torque issue !
Pls send me 5000 USD when implemented 😋
@@daniel635biturbo Like the Baratza Sette? lol
@@stirfryjedi Apparently yes, I've missed that one 🙂
@@stirfryjedi Now let's see it with the build quality/precision/service-life of a weber and we're talking. Although, I'm not a fan of belts. Let's see some swiss timepiece brass gears instead. I'm sure it's a minefield of patents, copyrights, methods, and the like to make any home appliance, which might be holding innovation back for many of us. I've never understood why we don't have 1-2 motors in a home that'll run a mixer, blender, food processor, vacuum, blow dryer, circular saw, reciprocating saw, jigsaw, leaf blower, etc. you could port from device to device to device with a variable transmission to set input/output speeds and an ISO standard of the appliance splines or whatever. I have FAR too many motors in my kitchen alone, all garbage export quality when you dig in to them.
Your comment about Weber's response to your complaints matches with a lot of people say about Weber's customer service. I often hear that they're not very helpful and tend to put blame on the customer first. I knew someone who bought their HG-1 and it was way too hard to grind. When he reached out to Weber Workshops, they at first told him he must've done something wrong. After some back and forth, they were able to finally get the issue resolved, but it seems frustrating that a company fetching for such premium prices doesn't do as much QC as one would like and who is quick to point the finger back at the customer. Those points would make me choose Kafatek over Weber for end game grinders as they test each and every grinder before shipping out and seem a lot nicer when communicating with customers.
I wouldn't waste time/$ on anything from Weber as it's clearly more about form than actual usable/consistent function.
the customer service of weber workshop was really bad with the way they communicated, very dissapointed with them on this.
Non biased, and to the point. All the stuff you need to know, with no filler. Well done.
I just watched this for the second time and just noticed the Sir Mix-a-Lot line you snuck in there - “it’s a big but and I cannot lie” (10:16) - very good! And I’m sticking with my Niche.
Your videos and integrity with the truth speaks volumes, greatly appreciated, superbly done
If you want honesty, you come here! Love the video and your take on the Key!
Thank you my friend! I appreciate that, and it’s what I aim for. Of course, this was just my personal experience. Curious to hear from others as more land on counters.
Every new grinder that comes out convinces me the Niche is just amazing. What a perfect product design. It's easy to underestimate how good it is but when anyone else does a single dose grinder it just has so many small annoyances.
Probably right but I wish someone would make the 'flat burr Niche'
@@MattHarris85 for espresso or more for pour over/ clever?
@@aryehh7128 thinking for espresso particularly. Baratza Forte is probably the closest thing right now but single dosing could be improved
@@MattHarris85 People seem to really like the workflow of the Niche. i heard somebody wish they could buy the Niche dosing cup. made me curious what's so much better about even the cup.
meanwhile I'm considering a Comandante eventually with red Clix, versus a 1zpresso K-max. fur both pour-over/clever and to keep using, eventually, for espresso, as soon as I can afford an espresso maker.
meanwhile I'm using a humble mokapot, and warning up milk on stove. it often surprises me how satisfying it turns out.
but resting the beans and WDT make a noticable difference even at this low level.
one praise for all the virus lockdowns: they really raised the home coffee brewing expertise, I think.
If I designed and brought a product to market, I really admire how well they did the Niche. probably the Comandante too, though I wish it could be faster and have grind setting numbers like the K-Max.
I have a HG2. I believe it is the same as the Key, but hand grinding. I quite like it - it is my go-to for espresso. It is certainly not perfect, but I have had very good shots from it.
I have an HG-2 and Key at the moment, the HG-2 seems to produce a little smoother straight shots but very similar at comparable RPMs. The difference may be due to the HG-2 having more seasoning or perhaps could be due to slight differences in the alignment but I'm hoping it's seasoning.
Not much reason to get the Key over the HG-2 if you already got the HG2. Advantages of the KEY are speed of grinding (higher RPM capability) less effort, and it also takes up less space. Higher RPM does add a little more body / intensity maybe, which results in less flavour clarity, but likely adds more fines and makes grind quality technically worse, It might be slightly better for milk drinks but never really is as 'conical' like with high body and low clarity as you might expect from a conical grinder.
Hey Spro, I'm a long time HG-1 user and have the TiN burr set. I can say that it's taken some real time to season them. But it's well worth it imo. At the 8:30 mark of your video, your inner burr looks wonky. Maybe it's the video or the coffee built up on the burr. But it doesn't look right to me. Keep up the great content!
I used KEY around 1 month 2 kg coffee passed.I loved brightness that KEY provided exchange with texture and body.
They KEY, like the EG-1, is a disruptive product that will certainly create waves in the industry. I have also been using one for about a month, and I can say it’s gotten better by the day and blows away any other grinder I’ve used (except maybe the EG-1). The build quality will probably outlast me, and it’s a joy to look at and use. I’m also a professional photographer and have posted a bunch of content based around it on my channel as well. Thanks!
Thanks for the review sprometheus. Really appreciate you staying level headed, not rushing the review or rushing to pass judgment.
Considering the pedigree and price of the unit, I have to say I am surprised at the inconsistencies you've shown especially in terms of "driveshaft" alignment (do they have to build them with a bit of give maybe?) and lackluster torque in the lower rpms.
If the specs are such that 70% of the rpms are not able to run without snags for the intended brew method then it's truly baffling why they would even be available to choose.
I was under the impression WW were not creating products with a main focus on cost cutting but it really seems the issues you've found are pointing to that conclusion.
I hope it breaks in for you (somehow), and that you get your money's worth!
Thank you for your frankness. There is no doubt that it is a valuable piece, but it is not without some impurities and as always big thank you 😊 🌹
Great review, I appreciate your honesty. Rare in todays commercial styled reviews.
Thank you for the honest Review and for the things we should pay attention to whenever we see one in the wild.
Cheers buddy
Thank you so much for your feedback, Asa! We truly appreciate the time and care you took to create a review on the KEY Coffee Grinder. As you and I discussed, while verifying your machine is configured correctly, the burrs will still take some time to become adequately seasoned - an inherent aspect of burrs machined to this caliber, designed to last for decades of heavy home use (even when pre-seasoned.) We’re confident you’ll love it more with each passing day of use and look forward to seeing this expressed in any follow-up impressions you do in the coming months.
As for the lower RPM stalls, a brushless motor will inherently have less torque at lower RPMs, but the grinder should be able to grind any drinkable coffee at any grind size from the mid RPM range. ‘Stalling’ actually acts as a protection mechanism so your motor doesn’t burn out - part of our way of ensuring it lasts decades. We could limit the lower end of RPMs, but that would mean that medium roasts and pour-overs wouldn’t be able to explore the super-slow grind profiles that we think is interesting and unexplored territory. We think it makes it more powerful as a tool, even if it requires a little more ‘gas’ to grind through harder/lighter beans.
It’s essential to us to have an open dialogue with our customers, so please don’t hesitate to reach out if you have further questions!
I thought the shaft wasn't supposed to have run-out when grinding? Wasn't this the problem you were solving in this design? Many light test videos showing shaft being off center. Wouldn't this contribute to uneven grind consistency?
@@thejackpotjake Surely the "issue" here is that the Key is apparently the only conical grinder extant where you can get line-of-sight view of the gap, right? This was a feature to enable easy cleaning - but also allows anyone to shine a light through. I think the benefits of ease-of-cleaning are really immense. From what I can ascertain, the downside to a few microns of visible wobble is negligible as it doesn’t change the quality of the ground coffee.
My $500.00 drill press with a six inch quill travel has less than 3 thousands runout on a fourteen inch shaft, which is nearly unnoticeable to the naked eye. There's always going to be runout, but for a two grand$$ grinder I'd expect the runout to be better than a $500.00 drill press made in Taiwan.
Three thousandths is 75 microns, and his shaft is 10 microns runout. As far as we know we’re the only grinder manufacturer that tracks this data, let alone correlates it to every serial number.
Re the stalling. Sounds like you're just trying to play off a bug as a feature. Why not just admit the motor is not spec'd to generate enough torque to cope at the lower RPMs the grinder was designed for. Respect your customers and stop treating them like idiots.
Do you think the Mk 2 would change your opinion on the Key (since it seems to address many issues like power, alignment, etc)? Or, do you think you'd feel more or less the same?
After using my Key for a while I am surprised no one has mentioned it's not easy to determine if the grinder is set for Espresso or Drip like the Niche. Turning the adjustment ring a full turn to go to drip seems like a lot of work. Recently picked up a bag of beans that had a blend of medium and light roast beans. After grinding an Espresso size dose, I could not turn the grind adjustment ring. The burrs were totally stuck together. Even running the grinder at full speed did not free up the adjustment ring. Had to work the outside burr holder back and forth to free u the burrs.
UPDATE; The stuck adjustment ring was caused by grinding very fine and slow and not finishing grinding the dose. Running the grinder at maximum speed at the end of the grinding session will clear the burrs so they can be adjusted.
Thank you so much for your honest review. If I could turn back time definetly I'd not want to be a part of this project and ordered one. I feel ashamed I've back this project since day one. It has been number one disappointed purchase and worst experience I ever had (I still waiting for mine to arrive which not sure when I will get it) As WBWS told everyone he lives in Japan but to me looks like he never learned anything at all from Japan especially service mind and the concept of customer first, including honesty. Take care and thanks again for your honest review 😊 👍 I'm a big fan of your work.
I tried it for a month and unsatisfied.
Very week motor which doesn’t give you all options with daily stalling not only with light but also with medium roasts at 70 RPM or less.
Noisy but well functioning motor is better than quite but malfunctioning one.
Thanks for the honest review. I've probably ground 5kg of beans through it and it has started to break in but, still hard to remain consistent with volumetrics. Well, it's probably "pre-seasoned" in WW's context, but it's just as painful as when I got the HG1.
Everything you've mentioned in your review, it's similar to my experience except the magic tumbler. RDT and removing the WDT wire works best. You'd probably want to just twist and remove the plunger and shake the grounds into the basket. You'll definitely get more grounds sticking to the standard funnel (if you ordered it).
The shaft play, now this I would keep monitoring for the next few months. Again, thanks for the review.
thanks for the honest review & level headed analysis!
appreciate it a lot.
I don't own a key but I have used a friend's and loved everything about it. From the aesthetic to the workflow to the coffee that it produced. Granted, I already use a magic tumbler, rdt and leveler so for me it felt like a tailored suit. It was all second nature.
The issue with light roast @ low rpm issue would never affect me. You can spec a larger motor but then the price of an already expensive grinder grows. It's hard to imagine it as the deciding factor in many people's decision making process but I suppose its worth mention.
The variance in one grind step is the most concerning complaint but its worth noting others have done the same one step test without the wide variance you got. Perhaps something was knocked out of place in shipping or maybe it just needed a bit more time. I know that the factory is very thorough about checking every unit but mistakes can happen especially with the earliest units. If that was the case it's very unfortunate, but it seems like you weren't in love with the rest of the experience so perhaps it wasn't meant to be.
Unfortunately I'm not in a position to spend even half what a Key costs on a grinder but it seems to me at that point its a lot like buying hifi. Some want vintage tube amps and some want vintage solid state amps and still others want the newest state of the art equipment. You can argue about what sounds the best the same way you can argue about which grinder produces the best coffee but it's very subjective. In the end the only thing that matters is how the experience connects to the individual.
Thank you for this honest review, you highlighted some details which other reviewers did not and therefore facilitated an informed decision for me.
Thanks for this fair and honest review, I'm gutted I backed this now - but fingers crossed they fix some of this with the sea-shipment of grinders.
You’re welcome, but I urge those who maybe are concerned they will suffer the same fate to come into it with an open mind. Machines can vary widely, so maybe yours will be perfect out of the box?
I like my Key grinder and the espresso it makes, but it’s not perfect.
Just ordered my Niche,upgrading from a cuisinart haha. And even though I’m not at a point where I want to spend $2k on a grinder yet, it’s nice to hear the Niche can hang with the big boys.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I’m looking forward to seeing what espresso machine you get next.
I think this is more of a case of a grinder trying to hang with the big boys but failing. I don’t think any other grinder at this price point would have a burr shaft as misaligned as this.
That’s not to say the niche doesn’t outperform it’s category though!!
@@dan110024 The Niche doesn't stall, the Niche has the lowest retention out of any electric grinder I've seen, cleanest, best UX, low noise, quick, best grind adjustment mechaism, easy to clean and align... That 5% extra clarity and 1300 bucks dont compensate imo🤪🤪🤪. Monolith conical crushes the key it seems, if i had 2k+ for a grinder.
I upgraded from the cuisinart to an Eureka Mignon Perfetto (for 2 months) while I waited on my niche, and now that I have my niche let me just say, be prepared for worlds better coffee. The grind quality compared to the cuisinart is insane. Can’t believe I put up with mine for 4 years before upgrading.
@@UberInformer dude im so excited to hear that haha. I’ve been a HUGE coffee lover for years and after a long time of making due it’s finally time for me to get real coffee gear.
That was a smart choice I have a niche it's amazing
It says a lot about the Niche that all new single dosing grinders get compared to it. For me, its strength is it's utter simplicity (yes I own one, so not completely unbiased). I can't help but think other companies are trying too hard to add features or trying to reinvent the wheel to differentiate themselves and just end up over complicating things. The Weber Key looks like just such a grinder.
I've updated my preference for using the tumbler now, after trying a few different things.
I've found the magic tumbler with the METAL lower burr holder (not the plastic ones with wiper arm or WDT paper clip thing attached) I found that works best for me. The paperclip dangling in a different position every time was annoying and usually got hit flinging coffee and bending the WDT tool so it's not great workflow wise for me, so I disregard it, I just use WDT needle tool afterwards, I don't use RDT (water spraying) sometimes with some coffees (especially at higher RPM) it will stick to the edges of the Tumbler, just a little tap and it usually falls down easy. I use a WDT needle tool, you can do it through the bottom opening of the tumbler or use your favorite funnel/collar (I put that underneath the tumbler, it works fine that way) so when you remove the tumbler the funnel is already in place, you do your WDT tap down and you're ready to tamp.
I received 1 and I very enjoy my KEY with espresso grinding. Difference taste profile from Niche Zero .
Hey, I had a few issues myself but I have a few things to say that may help your experience. I appreciate your thoughts on seasoning anyway, and I think I will also throw some old beans through it. What setting should I use, my standard espresso setting? Or finer or coarser? I won't comment on taste as I am probably not qualified and that is such a subjective subject. Ok to touch on your comment about the WDT and the tumblers: I agree the WDT was a bit eh... but honestly that wasn't a big selling feature for me in the first place, as I only have a 49mm basket machine, and a 54mm basket machine. So I got the standard tumbler and cone as well as the Magic tumbler. I have played around with both and here is what I think you should try so far, don't bother with the WDT wiper, or the Wiper that comes with the Standard. I actually think the grounds come out better without that WDT mod and I have not been getting any visible channeling without doing any WDT at all. Now the wiper that comes with the standard tumbler and cone is actually pretty sweet, and if I was using the Cremina only then I would leave it in, but I am also using a 54mm basket machine, and the dosing funnel just happens to fit the magic tumbler perfect and I wanted to try it. This way, you can swap the cone on and off and go back and forth to either tumbler for awhile until you get an idea of what you prefer without taking off the bottom burr. When you use the cone with no wiper, just be sure to tap the cone a few times before you grab the tumbler, I found this tap not needed if the wiper is installed. OK that brings me to my next point about the bottom burr and not taking it out. I had the same issue you had with the slight wobble light test. Here is what I found, the first time I did this I got lucky I guess and just took it off and put it back on and then it was perfect, no wobble. Later when I removed it again, it took me about 5 or 6 times of loosening the nut, then retighten - check - rinse and repeat. But there must be just a hair of play in that burr shaft and eventually I got it perfect. Now, this isn't fixing the issue, and it would obviously be better if it wasn't required BUT when you get it right it seems to be perfect. The annoying part is that it makes me not want to take off the burr very often, and it will mean I clean it out less than I assumed I would being so easy to remove. But such is life, nothing is perfect. Bottom line, I think the standard tumbler and cone is great, fits 49mm and 58mm, and then you could grind into basically anything, you could actually probably leave the cone wiper without the WDT attached at all times now that I think of it, just wouldn't really do anything if the magic tumbler was on. I may do this. But tighten that burr and make note of the shaft key so you know how you are holding the burr each time you tighten it, I think you will get it perfect. I have also never had mine jam and I have had it on slowest this whole time with nothing darker than medium so far, crazy I haven't heard that... maybe Ill bump up my speed a little to avoid it hahaha. Hope that helps, I agree its not perfect but I think its the best looking and coolest grinder I have had. I also have never used a Niche, but its nice to hear you prefer the taste of the Key anyhow.
thanks for all this info. i have the HG-2 but the design is very similar and a lot of your tumbler info transfers over to the HG-2. in my experience, and bare in mind this is the HG-2 where im grinding whatever rate i can by hand, maybe 1/2 revolution per second. nevertheless, in my experience, the magic tumbler WDT helped more with collecting the grounds nicely and uniformly into the tumbler. once they fall into the basket upon lifting the stopper, true WDT is still prudent (at least in my experience). the magic tumbler also seemed to keep my mess of grounds more contained than the standard tumbler, but not by much. one last thing around alignment and swapping wipers: perhaps the HG2 is different enough but I never had to take out the bottom burr, i just had to lay grinder horizontal and unscrew a bottom concentric bolt.
Thanks for this review. As someone who also has a LMLM and a niche I wanted to upgrade to a higher end grinder, and was looking forward to your evaluation of the key. Ultimately, I preordered a Monolith MC4, but was debating as to whether the key would be the better option (mc4 only $150 more after Weber air shipping). Your review was helpful in alleviating those concerns, although I truly hope Weber gets you sorted. It seems that the arm coming down into the burrs may be causing the largest issues, but who knows. Perhaps Weber will send you a new unit to test.
Anyway, keep up the great content!
You’re welcome and thanks for watching.
I’ve heard great things about the Monolith, and maybe I’ll go that route in the future. It seems I’m back in the grinder prowl at the moment looking for the next best option. I really am looking to invest in one and be done. Haha.
@@Sprometheus That’s my goal as well, to have a one and done. I think mono might be the next step up, but their TOTL flat (max) is about the same price as an EG1. James Hoffman reviewed both in his end game showdown and preferred the EG1.
From the conical perspective, The mc4 is a duo burr conical, which is a newer design and supposed to have more clarity than a traditional conical. I’m hoping the taste between the niche is apparent to warrant the difference, or I may end up selling my unit when I get it in the summer.
Anyway, perhaps contact Kafatek for a review unit. Denis the founder is very responsive and they’re based out of Seattle.
@@Sprometheus you can try the grinder brand Molar, it is from taiwan.
The Key is great, but from what I hear the Monolith MC4 is even better, if you can actually get it! I'd love to compare the two directly one day.
Almost 3 times the price of the Niche. Also, I'm a machinist, millwright and Marine Engineer. Stating that the burr is self centering is a crock. A shaft that long requires support in the form of a bearing. I predict a close look at grind size will show wild inconsistencies especially oncoarser settings. The beans shouldn't have the job of self centering the burrs LoL 😕 I'm happy with my Niche, but thanks.
I trust you and I believe that your clarity and lack of corporate courtesy is the reason for my trust in you
I suppose it depends on why you bought the Key. I bought the HG-2 pre-sale and got it a good while ago. I've had a lot of time to learn how the alignment works and how seasoning differences manifested themselves. But my whole purpose of buying the HG-2 wasn't for any of the fancy stuff or even build quality. I just wanted those big, high-quality burrs that are usually locked up in $2k-3k territory. So, in my view, I still got a good deal because my focus was solely on getting the highest quality conical burr for the cheaper price.
Thanks for the review, Spro!
Thank you.
Of course! Thank you for your continued support my friend!
Indigogo campaigns never turn out as advertised. I have backed 4 projects from indigogo - 3/4 never arrived and the other one was significantly different to described. I will never back a project again.
Same here. Also, while I didn't have a problem with the delays or WW's communication, the gaslighting in some responses from Indiegogo reps to what were IMO very reasonable questions from backers (back when IGG were replying to comments directly) really put me off as well. I'd be happy to buy directly from WW in future but definitely won't be backing any IGG campaigns.
Niche would like to have a word.
@@LimitedWard One of the very few...
Great review as ever, reinforced my lack of buyers remorse for my Niche!
The Niche truly has set a standard that for me, and many others, that’s hard to beat.
I have been following you for a while and this is one of the most critical reviews you have done! I would be disappointed too with what you got for that price!
Really? Have you seen any of my reviews of Fellow’s recent stuff? Haha
Regardless I did my best to make this as balanced as possible while still sharing my personal experiences, so I’m sure it does come off critical, but that’s where I’m at.
Oufffff, 8:29 shows quite some shaft wobble. A long shaft design + conical burrs are an engineer's nightmare lol. It is destined to wobble and it's a PITA to align. Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts on this! 💪
Yeah, it seems only the outer burrs are alignable. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts.
Yup.. my original HG-One also has a wobbling shaft and no way to align it. Still give pretty decent shots because it does auto-align when beans fill all around. If you really want uniformal grind, your only option is something like the Kafatek Monolith Flat Max, with a short shaft and tight CNC tolerances. Pay double too.
@@karoo_bushman6880 I secured a preorder on the Monolith MC4 last week 👀🤓
@@AnOtterCoffee nice!! I'm sure you'll be enjoying stellar shots with that machine. I'm waiting for the email when they open up orders for the Max, but still not sure because after shipping and taxes to Europe it will cost me 5000$ might as well buy a German product, the Titus Nautilus, seems pretty similar.
@@karoo_bushman6880 yeah, the Nautilus seems like a tank. Why not a Lagom P100?
Thank you for your review.
Glad I'm waiting for the sea shipment for mine now. Hopefully they iron out that last few % on later units.
Who knows, maybe I got a bunk grinder, but they seem certain the issues I’m experiencing aren’t permanent or pervasive.
I am on the same boat. Hope the 2Q shipment gets all these issues fixed. I am still thinking about canceling though. Unless WW send out an update to clarify and justify these observations rather than brush off answers. I am not very happy about their replies to people’s questions, not very convincing. We will see. Thanks Sprometheus.
I’ve had my Key for almost 2 months now. The major complaint/problem that I don’t think can be resolved is that for light to medium light roasts, my grinder stalls when grinding espresso unless the beans are fed in slowly. This is at 70 RPM with The Leam Hammer as one example. For medium dark roasts, turn on the grinder, dump the beans in, wait a for it to grind through. For the lighter roasts, I’m continuously feeding the grinder slowly to keep it from stalling. I’d the chamber fills up it stalls, which appears to contradict the statement about the axle alignment.
Typo: I’d => If
I am with you, I am also very frustrated with the stalling on beans. It was one of those features that sold the grinder to me as I really wanted to explore that deeper, but this sort of throws that idea for a loop.
burr is too big, so it appears the the motorr does not have enough torque to pair with, I guess it's not always bigger is better.
@@rc3443 umm, the burrs are definitely big, but saying they’re too big is an oversimplification and inherently incorrect. The grinder design has been around for ten years as a hand grinder and motorized adaptations have been done. Other grinders like the Option-O HSM use the same burr set.
It is pretty clear that the chosen motor for this grinder is not providing enough torque for lighter roast espresso at all available RPMs for some of the shipped grinders for the use case of start the grinder, dump in the dose, and wait for it to finish grinding.
The EG1 also has an incorrect spec motor and stalls with some burrs. This company is a scam really, check the playlist on my profile.
Between this and the Mignon Oro I’m starting to think companies are beta testing with their first customers even more than normal.
Haha, sometimes it does feel that way. But these are issues that arise with those who are early adopters. I’ll be curious to see the thoughts of others as more hit the streets.
yeah i agree with u. rush the product out then do minor changes later . everything that was pointed in this vid was the reason i never bought it.
I think these were issues they would have been apparent prior to release…at least if they were being responsible. Perhaps they decided to just see what they had the most pushback on before investing in addressing these issues? Feels like the first Apple Watch all over again. Personally this feels like the second to last final internal revision not what should have been released to consumers.
Oro Single Dose definitely had more real issues. I think they fixed it for their 2nd batch though (Months later).
New Oro SD has been improved but still not perfect unfortunately. First edition I wouldn't recommend, 2nd 1.1 edition Eureka Oro SD is alright, but it seems like it works better without the bellows. They just added the bellows to check off a feature for marketing it seems, but Eureka doesn't seem to know how to design a good one.
Really good video, thank you
Great review! You're the first reviewer that I've heard (to much frustration) compare the Niche and other high end grinders to manual grinders. It would be amazing to get a full review comparing a few of them.
Hoffman used the niche as a control in his ultimate grinder test
You missed the thing I hate the most about that workflow. I owned a blind tumbler for a few weeks, and I quickly grew to hate the "cowbell" ringing before I've had any coffee in the morning! :)
Just received mine today - tried about 8 shots before I retired for the night. I had major channeling issues with each one (spraying and split streaming like crazy). At each stage, I made the grind finer and finer to reach my time window (27-32 sec) - with some sacrificial beans ground in between. I too am coming from a Niche and I was able to get it dialed in with little effort. My work flow on my Niche is: grind > top PF with funnel > invert grinds into PF > wdt > tap PF on counter > leveling tool > pull shot. With the weber standard tumbler, I tried with and without WDT and found no difference in channeling. I plan on trying again once I get my hands on more beans, but so far I'm not too happy about it.
Damn, but I am glad I went with the Kafatek monolinth instead of the Key. Granted the key is readily available, unlike the monolith which you have to wait for half the year to arrive, but once it does its basically set it and forget it.
Smart choice
The magic tumbler doesn’t need wdt. Its just that the grinds don’t fall evenly into the basket. i find if i put the tumbler on topic of a portafiler funnel to give it more headspace then it distributes better in the portafiler basket. Then a little shake to even the grounds and tamp.
Still looking forward to getting my Key... Considering here in Aus it's almost the same price as a niche the key seems so much higher end, and hopefully with a bit of seasoning it will be the last grinder I need to buy!
Buy direct from niche, the Aus resellers here jack up the prices a lot. I got mine for $1040 AUD including shipping from niche direct.
Where are you getting you Key from? I live in Australia and the Key is three times more than the Niche.
@@shaftyz seeing as I have a key on order through the IGG backer campaign I'm probably not going to do that
@@c0mbat15 early backer through Indiegogo they had a 500 USD discount so ordered it for $1500 USD, just over 2k Aus + postage etc.
Really good review and stands apart as so many reviewers seem to be more fan-boy than pony-boy (what IS a pony- boy anyway? 🤷🏻♂️)
I was humming and hawing over the Key for ages, but the fact that they got the launch price wrong (or changed it) so it went from $1500 to $2000) and the amount I would have had to pay in shipping and duties made me decide against in the end, and honest reviews like yours which show real attention to detail and ignore the hype make me think I made the right decision.
Thanks for a great (and on point ) video.
Thank you my friend, and I haven’t watched any other reviews for the grinder purely to not let it sway my thoughts. It’s important to me to share my true, unadulterated experiences even if they differ from someone else.
Haha I don’t know what a Ponyboy truly is, it’s just from The Outsiders, it’s a character.
Stay gold pony boi
Never stops shocking me how Niche is still the big bad all round boy after so many years for espresso.
… so many years? The Indiegogo campaign was started in 2017 :) Not that I dislike the NZ, have one. The HG-1 from 2015 is essentially the same design as the Key grinder (minus the motor).
@@zixzysm 4.5 years is pretty decent right for the competition to pull it's clutch up? Almost every Niche killer has 1-2 major flaws that could've logically ended at ideation stage.
@@subbieda But the Key was never a “Niche killer”. I don’t know where people get that. The Key is built as a direct development of their HG-1/HG-2. Which is a lot older than the Niche.
It’s just the poster child of the espresso hobbyist community now. I use a used Italian grinder and it works fine.
Ordered an Onyx back in June last year and they were supposed to be shipping in November I believe. So far, there's not even an ETA for Australian customers. It cost me around 2.5k AUD. I've never in my life paid for anything online only to receive it a year or so later. WW can blame supply chain and covid as much as they like but they should have given the customers a more realistic ETA. First and last time I ever buy anything from WW.
Thank you for a great review for a product I won’t be buying anytime soon 💸
This video was very educational and honest. Too many coffee channels kiss ass but your channel goes to the top of believability. I would be very interested to see what you think of the Kafatek MC4. I own one so if you ever pass through NYC, you're welcome to take it through its paces.
Thank you David, and that’s the best possible comment/compliment I could receive. I really pride myself on providing a true and honest review of my personal experiences, I’m sure it’s not going to make me friends at Weber, but in the end this is channel is for my fellow coffee lovers, not the manufacturers and brands.
@@Sprometheus Yes, we viewers see the risk you're taking and appreciate it. Unfortunately, honesty has consequences. Of course, we all respect James Hoffmann but he beats around the bush too much. For now on I will come to this channel to see unvarnished truth. Keep it real.
I think you can sorta see that shaft wobble @7:10 lol
The burrs wobbling from the shaft is a problem even on my key too. It absolutely doesn't sound like it was supposed to be this way so the beans self centering them is a lame excuse. Do you hear a noise when burrs are empty and on tight setting?
Yes I got noise and what seems friction sound after grinding on a high speed.
I asked weber and told me that the key wasn’t designed to grind always on high speed.
If you lower down to low speed below 70 RPM, you’ll get stalling.
WOW, the cojones on this guy. Leaving a real, unbiased, honest review. Who does he think he his?! Oh, just my new favorite coffee-tuber.
Appreciate the support my friend! Cheers
Thanks for your honest review that once more reveals the engineering flaw of WW's HG/Key concept. A few years ago I also owned a HG1 Handgrinder and had similar issues with inconsistencies. After swapping out burrs with no improvement I got in touch with LW hoping to resolve my alignment troubles and, to my surprise, was also told that she shaft is self-centering. To be frank, that's complete bull****. It might be true in theory when you imagine all beans to be exactly the same in size and hardness AND distribution around the burrs. The reality however is that the shaft WILL flex under load due to the lack of a lower bearing - it's a simple physics equation and reveals a major engineering flaw.
LW/WW have been well aware of this issue as I know first hand they have been approached by more than one person in the industry over the years - so, seeing the Key concept follow the footsteps of the badly engineered HG came to me as a bit of a surprise…
The day I swapped my HG1 for a higher end grinder was when I realized how bad the HG really was (and that explicitly includes customer service). Real bummer since I really like their product's aesthetics.
I agree with you 100% had the same issue with my HG1&LW , I got rid of it. Now I have the kafatek monolith best grinder ever.
@@revolutiondance1141 didn't want to disclose the route I went but let me say we have more than one choice in common. My coffee routine has changed from fiddling and worrying to just making amazing coffee without thinking.
I disagree that the shaft length is an engineering flaw because myself and many others use the HG-1 and consider it to be at the absolute peak of espresso quality. Plenty of others use a versalab and feel the same way. Perhaps you did get the initial model that wasnt possible to align manually, which was indeed a design flaw in their first iterations.
It is a 1/2 inch stainless steel shaft with 2 big bearings. The amount of force required to displace that burr is enormous. If yours was bent, that sucks, but thats not a design fault, and mine has basically zero runout after many years of use.
@@Marklar0 On mine, if running at good speed with the burrs set for espresso grind just press on the running shaft lightly down by the burrs and I hear the burrs touch. The distance between the top bearings is small compared to the distance from the bottom bearing to the burrs, which means that any bearing play is multiplied by the distance from the bottom bearing to the burrs.
We have a Weber Key & Decent DE-1 XXL on their way to us & we're super excited.
My wife & I prefer rich flavoured dark roasted beans & with the amazing brewing options that are open to us with Decent machine, I'll have the time f my life tweaking Decent XXL to coffee Nirvana.
Ouch. Staying away from this one. 2k is a lot to pay to deal with all those issues imo. Looking forward to that part 3! Thanks for the vid
Looking forward to a part 3 !!!! Lol tea time 🫖
I'm not sure I understand. If the extraction is lower, yet there less fines (I suspect the peak isn't lower as Niche's) you should push for a finer grind to achieve a higher extraction, despite the time the shot takes?
Not hatin', askin'. Was a shot a touch finer with a touch higher extraction bitter and/or astringent? How come, if there's less fines?
On paper this grinder, having less fines and less texture, should be able to achieve better extraction.
If a step finer makes it astringent and bitter, it makes the grinder useless as it doesn't have enough flexibility for shots and (I understand) it aims for spro, not drips.
The ceado e37z-hero had this grinder and others like it beat by almost a 5yr head start. Although 83mm flat burr, coated burrs, and adjustable rpm from 600 to 1500.
The trade off is it $5000 to
$6000 price tage
Lolll that wobble in the burrs!!! 100% that’s your inconsistency issue. And it’s so obvious when you look up at it around 8:50. The fact you can easily see it on camera without even trying to look shows how bad it is.
I was keen to watch this as I’ve already been using my Key for close to two months now. Initial bedding-in is, I feel, inevitable and this accounts for slight grind inconsistencies at first. Like becoming acquainted with any mechanical device there is an iterative/trail-and-error process which cannot be bypassed unless each and every product is extensively “dyno-tested” before shipping……..but then it wouldn’t be new, would it! Expecting a perfect grind, suited to your extraction setup straight out-of-the-box, is just unreasonable and pedantic in the extreme. The simpatico relationship between human and machine is something to savour as this is what creates that rarified feeling of deeply bonding with a device. I am making the most delicious coffee I’ve ever made, thanks to the Key, and I’m loving every aspect of owning and using it. Call me biased; I’ll roll with that! 😊
Ah yes, so let me set you straight here.
1. I’m well aware of break-in/seasoning, but advertised out of box usability and pre-seasoning didn’t live up to the expectations they created.
2. My expectations are not unreasonable. I’ve owned multiple new grinders, but a 20g gap with a one notch movement is not a “slight grind inconsistency”.
3. I’m glad to hear you’re enjoying it. I’m glad you’re making the best coffee you’ve ever had. But discounting others opinions and experiences as wrong or invalid based on your own experience isn’t a good look.
@@Sprometheus Well, that's what this comments forum is for...
I like good design, well-made products and good coffee ~ the Key more than ticks all of those boxes for me. 💯
Well if I ever do upgrade from the niche /df46 SSP MP it looks like the bentwood might be the next step.
There’s a lot of grinders out there, and likely by the time you are ready there will be 100 more haha.
@@Sprometheus it is quite impressive how the Niche continues to hold its ground in the mid range grinder tier. And that is very true. Plus I really don’t see myself abandoning those two grinders any time soon
I used this grinder after a period of 4 months and I faced many problems. On low rpm like 70 rpm or less with Light to medium roast coffee stopped suddenly the burr hard to rotate. If the grinder does not turned off from the main switch without using above 3 hours , and when you want to use it, it will not work.
Thanks for the review. I’d definitely not buy this grinder after seeing this. I’d expect near perfection for 2k
I enjoyed this being a longer video and a two parter. The backstory of your personal investment was nice too. Weber; this isn’t good enough, we expect better from you. Keep putting out things like this and you’re going from the front of the pack to just another company that makes good looking but pretty average coffee accoutrement. Make a v2 of this now and make an upgrade kit available at a discount for the first wave of owners.
Thanks Fenton, and yeah I’m a little torn on longer videos, they require so much more time to put together. I literally uploaded this one last night at 2am, haha.
At this point I’m more or less just going to work on the grinder solo, see how it comes along, and then possibly resell it at a loss in a couple months.
@@Sprometheus best of luck and I think we’d all like an update video aka that part 3 when you have reached a conclusion and recovered from the more stressful production. Hopefully next time one of your videos is so long is because of something exceeding your expectations. 🙂☕️
What is your favorite single dose grinder? I've given my Niche to my college age daughter. Was thinking of a used Key, maybe not so much now.
Great review - given your issues, I’d be having buyer’s remorse also. 2k is a significant step up from the usual suspects, and far too many “issues” for me to consider this.
What order number are you? Sill waiting for mine to be shipped.
Thank you for this video! I’ve been looking forward to this one. I have some questions and comments that I hope you’re willing to indulge.
For the light gap shot; interesting. I suppose the “wobble” that you’re observing is a result of the shaft runout + plus error in burr concentricity. It’s remarkable that such a small variation is visible to the human eye.
You mentioned at 6:50 that the shaft is slightly askew, do you think that’s causing any of the wobble?
I wonder what the burrs in other conical grinders look like when they’re running. Have you been able to take a look at any in your niche or other conical grinders that you’ve used in the past, and if so how do they compare?
If the error in burr concentricity is larger than the shaft runout I’d have a hard time blaming Weber.
Not that any blame needs to be assigned, I wonder if it actually matters; does it make a difference in coffee quality?
Thanks spro ✌️
Mine does the same thing, a very slight wobble is noticeable when light is shinning through, Weber says that's normal like 5 micron runout or whatever their standards are (i forget the details) and that it's just easier to see it vs other grinders (which is true) and I'd argue it's not ideal however, the grinder is working very nicely producing very good results, it is higher clarity and lower body than you'd expect from a large conical burr.
I think taste profile is similar the 1zPresso K-plus which is very good as well (i'll need to do more testing / comparison) but from the few comparison shots I've done I noticed the Key gives smoother results, K plus I think has more fines so has more bitterness/harshness.
I'm working on building a Bunnzilla - hoping that 50 lb beast will be my end game! Great review, appreciate your thoughts on ease and workflow.
Very nice, detailed review. Thirty pounds of coffee is a years supply for me lol. The burrs and build quality look amazing, sorry to hear it is not as perfect in the cup. My consumption of coffee is low enough that I can easily hand grind all my beans, so I will stick with that. I do secretly want a Niche, but unwilling to spend for it.
Thanks Jaime! And yeah, 30lbs is a massive amount of coffee, and likely your average persons yearly amount. As a roaster I have the fortunate ability yo stockpile old beans for occasions like this.
I'm averaging using upwards of 100 lbs. yearly for espresso only and hand grind 95% of the time. Still find it hilarious there is so much fuss over the electric grinder fad when a quality hand grinder is all one really needs for ANY home use.
@@commandodude333 Not everyone is a Commando, dude! :D
I think if I’m someone already ready to drop $2k on a Key grinder I’d rather go for the full-fat EG-1. Yes it’s double the price, but is also renowned and established-and doesn’t come with compromises or growing pains that you mentioned. Otherwise I’d save a stimmy and get the Niche. (Anything would be an upgrade from my breville grinder lol)
Thanks for always being honest!
Is it possible to remove the center piece of the tumbler, mount it and just stick a portafilter underneath? With maybe a short pf funnel on top to avoid any mess? Grinding directly this way may improve the wf. I do not have a Key but this might work.
So I did try that. The burrs are wider than my and most funnels, so you need to use a built in funnel, like then tumbler without the bottom. The magic tumbler is too big, so the portafilter fils up and it’s a mess to get it out. That’s why I would recommend the Standard tumbler option, which is essentially a funnel, then you gain a lot of headroom for the portafilter. Then all you need is a low profile magnetic portafilter stand below and you’re in business.
The issues you are raising are pretty major
I agree, this review kept me from buying it. I’m still very doubtful of what grinder to choose. Should I go for the Niche, the Timemore or something totally different? I’m curious @Sprometheus, where is part III :)? Thank you for all your efforts.
Apologies if it has already been covered below.
The Weber Key using the Standard Tumbler should have come with a magnetically attached funnel which fits in the same place as the Magic Tumbler. I notice in your video at 8.29 mins that this is missing. Granted, there is still a gap, but the splutter and spray is considerably reduced.
If this was missing from your order with the Standard Tumbler perhaps Weber Workshops will send you one and you can then revisit your review and make corrections as necessary.
I think you may have lost the plot somewhere. I have the magic tumbler, not the standard. During the video I mention that, and say I would’ve got the standard had I done it again since you can’t really do much outside of using the tumbler with the magic option. No need to make corrections.
@@Sprometheus I accept your point. However the video still implies grounds spreading all over the place, which if used in accordance with the makers instructions does not happen.
NB. I have owned a Key since January 6th with both the Standard and Magic Tumbler so I do have some informed input without any commercial interes,t either with WW or Youube.
@@everhopefulalways4390 okay, you aren’t getting it. I said in the video, you have no other options for dosing cups and all that because of the way the grinder is designed, so you have to use one of their options. I’m not sure how you’re missing this.
@@Sprometheus We do sell the funnel alone, or bundled with the standard tumbler, on our website.
@@Sprometheus I get why this is important to you as a youtuber who has a financial incentive to not be locked into a certain way of doing puck prep. It cuts you off from products that you can create content with. But I imagine the reason why most people are buying Weber Workshop grinders is that they consider the whole experience (pre and post-grinding, cleaning etc) and not just the actual grinding. If you want a grinder that you can use all these other options with why would you choose the one grinder that doesn't allow it?
Should have bought the Onyx Buddy, it’s beautiful and the grinder is fantastic
The work flow from the key seems awkward, the way you have to pull the cup at an angle away from the machine after grinding. No step less adjustments, the tiny dose cup, the static, the mess. It might look nice but it feels like a hassle in practice. (niche owner)
The DF83 smokes this thing.
Nice review as usual. DF next!
Hey Spro! Thank you so much for this review, I was really looking forward to it.
As already stated in your „Shorts“, I also got tons of spray with my Key and I was quite frustrated how inconsistent my shots where. I am probably through 2kg (4.4 pounds) and it is getting better, but it is yet far from perfect.
My spindle is straight, but I also can see from the top, that the inner burr is having a tiny play. I guess this is the „self centering“ you mentioned?
Additional WDT helps, but you still have to be thoroughly. I will test further and eventually remove the paperclip at all - so it is easier to clean.
If you need something that I, or others should test, just reach out.
Thank you again!
Hey! Yeah it’s definitely slowly getting better, I’m now at about 20ish lbs, shots are still messy. I am curious to sift the beans soon, I just didn’t have the energy to do it in this video, and the results I was getting more or less spoke for themselves.
I have since removed the WDT as it seems like it was more of a pain than an assist. Definitely keep me informed how things progress for you, if you aren’t already following me on IG it’s definitely the best place to share those kinds of things on.
@@Sprometheus I guess I have to create an IG account then. Haha alright … I will blame you for doomscrolling all night long. :P
I am also curious for James‘ review, as Kyle also dropped his today.
I don’t have the Kruve sifters, but this also popped into my mind. I did some amateur eyeball comparison with my K-Plus.
Soooo … I will probably get some cheap beans from the supermarket tomorrow and don’t stop grinding. :-)
Today I discovered that the burrs touching point isn’t stable. The point was at #5 for example and after grinding it moves to #3
Thats why when I use the same coffee & recipe. It is different from day to day.
I ground a coffee at #12 yesterday but I got the same cup at #8 today.
Very inconsistent…
Your comment that it might not be that much better of a result than from a high quality hand grinder...
You might have just thrown that in to help us budget-challenged brewers feel closer to the big leagues, or you might really mean it. Either way, heartfelt thanks! That helps.
Do you have in mind the Comandante as that high Q hand grinder? Or a K-Max? I'm hoping to upgrade and want great grounds for Clever, Moka Pot, and hopefully soon either Picopresso or Flair 58.
Have you ever brewed with a Bellman (Taylor and Ng) CX-25P? Decades back it was the closest I found locally and affordably to proper Italian espresso/cappuccino. (I since gave it to a friend though.)
Really appreciate your videos. The 60 second ones are great between other clips in a playlist. You probably realize that, but I wanted you to know. Decades of drinking it, but I don't think I truly appreciated the gorgeousness of a bottomless portafilter until about the third time I saw one in your vids.
Which is what's got me chasing a Pico or Flair.
Which do you suggest for me, Comandante or K-Max (1Zpresso)?
Not an answer to your question, but FWIW I've been using my Comandante with my Alex Leva for a few months while waiting for the Key. I'd strongly recommend the 'red clix' burr adjustment upgrade as the large steps with the default setup can be a bit frustrating, but otherwise it's done a stellar job as an espresso grinder. Getting grinds into the portafilter is a bit inelegant (I guess the cool kids call this 'workflow' these days), but otherwise an 18g dose is easy to grind in about a minute and a half.
@@maaaatt Thank you. I've heard the Comandante "holds its value" well. meaning when your awesome grinder comes in you likely could sell your Comandante at not so much less than you paid.
though I also heard people later feeling regret they'd sold it.
by inelegant do you mean the grinds get stuck inside the rim of the receptacle, or is the receptacle too wide to put the upside down portability on top then flip them?
is it hard effort, bumpy start and stop grinding where you feel the "potholes", so to speak, for a minute and a half? or could it be a cool, sort of satisfying way to wake up while making that first cup of the day?
@@maaaatt just looked up Alex Leva. I'm jealous! I'm meanwhile trying to talk myself into a Flair 58! for some of the pre-infusion, and pressure profiling options. but mostly as the cheapest way into a 58mm portafilter.
which you can have precise control, albeit manual, even as to a Decent, swap in a VST basket, all manner of "pro" gear. and pro extraction results.
the "Barista Tingles", in other words.
but without the hassle of preheating.
only, it means continuing to struggle with slightly overheated milk on the stove.
somehow I'm not wanting to go for a semi auto machine even though I could find one the price of the Flair.
Alex Leva sounds like an endgame machine!
Comandante each click adjusts 30microns. red Clix 15microns.
would 15 be enough to carefully precisely dial in?
and what do you think about the 1zpeesso K-Max which uses burrs similar geometry to Comandante (heptagonal) but slightly larger, too grind 18gms in about 40 seconds.
supposedly tastes fairly close to Comandante. but easier grind adjustment with etched numbers instead of counting clicks. each adjustment 22 microns. hallway between the default Com. and the red Clix.
would it be enough finer adjust to precisely dial in? there's no "RedClix-like" option to improve it to 15 microns per.
@@aryehh7128 I have no doubt I could sell my five year old Comandante - and even less doubt that I'd regret it! Though part of the idea of backing the Key was that I might be able to switch back between espresso and filter; I think the convenience of having separate grinders will likely win out.
Paying a bit more attention over the last few days, my main complaint with manual grinding is the lack of grip, which is an issue with all the hand grinders I've used. Grinding at filter coarseness this is really only an issue with really light roasts. The 1zPresso looks like it might address this issue a bit better, at the expense of aesthetics, but it would equally be easy to add a silicone sleeve to any hand grinder.
Static is really only a minor complaint; typically about
Was the magnet at the bottom of the magic tumbler skewed that way from Day 1? That looks really sloppy. (And I wasn't trying to make a sloped pun until I read that.)
My conclusion, as a result of this review and others, is that in this price range I’d rather have the Lagom P64.
I got both, and I'm conflicted as to which I'd wanna keep.
@@BensCoffeeRants what is the substance of the conflict? Is there somewhere that the Key excels above the P64? Do you prefer the conical burrs to the flats?
@@ericanderson1753 I like both I don't find these conical burrs dramatically different than flats. But there are some advantages and disadvantages to each grinder. Unimodal burrs in the p64 are the highest clarity but lack body and richness of the key.
@@BensCoffeeRants you can change the burrs on Lagom to 64 mm High Uniformity which will give you more transitional style shots with thick body. Or you can get newly released SSP lab sweet style burrs or you can wait while Lagom finishes their Lab Sweet style burrs
Also, Option-O, compared to Weber, doesn't try to put the blame on you for not using their product right when they are objectively defective or on the burr manufacturer which they chose and have not tested. Option-O has great customer service which resolved all issues I had.
Forgot to tell you that with Key you're limited to one burr set, while with Lagom 64 you can try many different 64 mm burrs
There was no part 3. What happened? Did you return it ? Did they accept refund or even to test it ?
I sold it. Couldn’t be bothered.
Put a dial indicator on the shaft while running. The results might be interesting
You have confirmed my concerns with the Key. I guess it’s not an upgrade for my Niche!
I had read some rumors Niche was working on a larger burr upgrade to its Niche grinder. Have you heard any such rumors?
I love my Niche.
I also have a DF64 with SSP High uniformity espresso burrs which have been a little disappointed mainly with the coffee clogging in the chute. I have added every modification that exists for the DF64 to make the work flow better but still the Niche is my preference.
For now I am keeping both the Niche and the DF64 since they complement each other.
If I had to keep only one it is clearly the Niche! I love my Niche!
The DF64 with the SSP high uniformity espresso burrs and the modification is a good grinder but still not perfect. It produces more clarity than the Niche but I love the full body I get from the Niche that is missing in the DF64.
I love the EG-1 but it’s very large and would have a had time getting to fit in my limited counter space.
Maybe the P-100 might be the upgrade for the DF64?
I am in no hurry to change my grinder but keeping an eye open.
For now my Niche is going nowhere!
The DF64 might be a different story!
You’ve got a whole army of grinders! Haha, I haven’t tried the DF64 yet, but I do want to try it eventually.
I haven’t heard this about Niche, but it would make sense. They have a lot to live up to though, so they better do their due diligence on a new grinder or upgrade before releasing something.
More or less I’m back on the grinder prowl, so we’ll see what I come up with in the future.
@@Sprometheus ; I will be followed you! Thanks again !
I doubt you'll find 98mm burrs to be an upgrade in mouth feel, especially if you prefer the Niche to the 64mm HU.
I say just enjoy the Niche, it's endgame espresso imo for those that enjoy that thick syrupy mouth feel
Thanks for the review. I was considering the Key as it seemed like a forgiving grinder for espresso. I’ll stick with the P64 for filter and EG1 with core burrs then.
Creed as manager is why I’m commenting…classic
Great review, for me I have not had any issue with shot time and each dot move the time a couple of seconds and I have not done any seasoning. Are u sure all your trst were in same rpm? ,, from my experience rpm plays a huge role in shot time and even more in taste.
Yes, when testing I only adjust one variable at a time. In this case it was only grind size. But like I've reiterated in other comments, these issues are likely not on every grinder.
That self-centering nonsense is absurd. They know that shaft should be straight and not flexible enough to be centered by coffee
maybe im dumb but whats the point in measuring the extraction as part of the brewing process for the grinder, when you should be able to change the extraction by manipulating variables other than what grinder youre using
For espresso, the general rule of thumb is to have an extract time of 25-30 seconds with a 1:2 - 1:2.5 bean to extraction weight, and minor modification to dial the acidity/boldness. Tuning the grind size is by far the most common and standard way to archive that. If the minimal change step cause an extract time to change from 26 sec to 40 sec, it means the "other variables" I need to change is either the bean weight by up/down dose of 1/5, or changing the pressure of the pump etc. which both have very serious impact on the resulting espresso.
I’m so glad I went with the P64.
I have the EG1 and also experienced some block while grinding some light roasts at low speeds...not often but it did happen. Love my EG1, way too expensive but I think that there is more appeal to it than the key. Not sure why but I am ok to pay 4500 euros (with import taxes) for the EG1, not 2000 for they key (niche seems good enough although not as stylish)