Want something to read? My book is on sale for 0.99c ! You can pick it up here amzn.to/3anLg9m By popular demand...the enemy swagger after murdering our group: 3:00
I been watching these videos and never wated to pay Pantheon, after following it for years. But i saw it on steam and said wth, Ill go for it. Now Im fully addicted.
This feels like an evolution of the Diplomacy/Speechcraft system they tried to implement in Vanguard. I liked that system in Vanguard, and I am excited to see how this plays out.
Oh that's amazing, thank you so much. All the best luck to you and your channel. It's a process but as long as you're finding it rewarding personally, keep going!
@Redbeardflynn honestly my favorite thing about TH-cam has been the community. I rarely get mean comments or anything like that. It's really motivating
@@frenchfriedtatersyoutube They'll come, but brush them off. You can't please everyone. and some people are just angry. Community building is freaking awesome. I feel very lucky.
My biggest complaint about this game is Trade Skills. There are players out there, and many players, including myself that love crafting. Why can't we have a toon that stays in town and only crafts? The trade skills linked to character level just isn't a good idea in my opinion, and others! Joppa needs to implement exp gains for crafting. I want a crafter that doesn't have to go out killing mobs!
The game with the most interesting and challenging quests was Secret World. If you didnt look up the answers those were very difficult and satisfying. Hopefully their system will include difficult to attain info and clues rather than the normal easy conversation choice based stuff many games have.
This is true, wife and I enjoyed tsw precisely for this reason. I remember a quest where you had to decode a morse code or literally look up info about a person online via webbrowser etc. Sadly, with the f2p reboot of tsw, this got changed and the quests were dumbed down substantially because it was too complex for the normal Joe. It's not the same as before anymore ...
@@Alexander-ix2jp To be fair, those quests had a shelf life. Many of them encouraged you to use the in-game browser to research the answers... the problem with this was; search algorithms ended up directing you to the actual quest solution, because the puzzle/mystery was specific enough that searching accurately for it was the same as searching for the name of the quest.
@duncanwallace It was also very annoying to have to alt tab out of game and look things up. Its one of the bad points on Secret World, not a good point.
so when pantheons alakazam is written up theyre just gonna list the branches and subsequent keys and rewards, and i imagine in some circumstances it could be a meta to go for one branch versus the others. i dont really see how this will benefit players enough to justify 5xing or 10xing the development time of quests
It's a great idea and game mechanic. It will also require a tremendous increase to content creation, curation, and maintenance. For a cash strapped team with a delicate business model, it's very risky. It would be wiser to first focus on maybe applying models to the mobs still roaming around shaped like big 💊 s.
The biggest problem with game dev like this is they're *all* priorities. And they all need money. Art team, writing team, coding team. The more one gets pushed to the side the harder it is to get it back. What this stream demonstrated from Joppa is the system is there. Just needs the writing. My best guess (not confirmed) is that the flags are probably tied to only classes and such but flagging in general is just good to have in MMOs to increase what you can do versus "physical" keying (think PoP in EQ or multiple instances of internal flags in WoW)
@Redbeardflynn Yep and its on leadership to plan, cut and finagle it to be the best final product. Maybe they have to cut a system or two until later down the line. Fans need to look at this with hope but also understand the realities. What we all should hope for is a unique and very well designed/fun core that draws a playerbase then let the team really focus on additional fun/content. Im encouraged by what I see now but we need to see more and they need to clean some things up. Pantheon is the perfect example of why teams dont/ shouldn't go public too early. At least its not star citizen whose business practices are atrocious for a game that will never be finished.
@AaronQ64 Not releasing too early or too late is the key. I don't build games, but have been leading teams that build complex consumer financial apps for many years. I know well the dance and tradeoffs. The challenges of a team that's languished for years. This is why I warned these guys that 1. A release is a release. You will be judged harshly by your critics no matter the label (EA, pre-launch, alpha, beta). Those terms don't matter to the consumers. Just to the insiders and those adjacent to the insiders. 2. Never overpromise anything you can't deliver, ever. 3. Put most of your efforts into completing fundamentals to MVP before teasing new features. I feel the team has only recently really become effective and the question now is if it's enough of too little too late. Soon, the many lower 20s players who came in through steam and who give zero f's about the storied history will run out of interesting content. Thus the reason they're making vids about the 💊 mobs floating about: they're getting bored. Soon they'll start making their own entertainment by metagaming, sploiting and trolling others. That will distract the small team even further as people then cry out for more and more moderation and community tools. My point being, 20 people can't handle this while completing content and chasing new features. They have to ruthlessly prioritize now that the game is released. Also, the infra costs will catch up soon. They need to charge a minimum of about $40USD/mo to break even on infra at scale if they're going to avoid cash shops and microtxns. I'm yet to see this level of professional maturity from the team, but they are headed the right direction.
@@AaronQ64 I dont think Pantheon went public early because it wanted to, nor SC, nor AoC...etc. Its a symptom of a genre that has been largely abandoned by investment without the caveat of aggressive monetization to quickly recoup investment from whales willing to spend tons of money. Going public as early as these projects did was necessity, not choice.
I do believe it was supposed to be a skill everyone could level up and whatnot. Some people might get a ping and others not, all based on their perception skill level. Those who explored more would see more pings. I think this is a good way to do it. Mostly so that their could be things not found on the internet either because they were not found, or the few that have found it want to keep it a secret and rare.
I remember Joppa mentioning just that in the stream before this one. Today's stream he went all in and the stream right before that, he explained what you just said. If executed properly, this will add a level of depth unheard of. I actually *think* I remember Brad talking about that "leveling up" perception mechanic during one of his discussions (years ago), thus making it harder for content creators to just make a "one size fits all" guide on "what happens next". This would actually help mend the common problem in MMORPGs which is "content consumption" or the rate at which it's completely and/or revealed to the general public thus creating more mystery and discovery even years later. Best part is the devs can add to it as the years progress without having to "shatter" the world (like WoW) or keep piling on expansions (like EQ) Really cool concept but they'll definitely need help to execute this seamlessly.
You can make the replayability argument because by itself that fits, but in a game like pantheon where its a grind and huge time investment to advance your character, todays player is going to be pissed off that there's no way to go back and "fix" a decision they made. Think about your experiences in real life just going to a big box store to buy a product. Do you not take out your smart phone and google reviews of the products to try and discern the best choice so you feel good about your purchase? This is what we've been conditioned to do not just by games, but by culture. We want to learn from the choices others have made so that we feel we are making the best choice. Todays players almost feel slighted or wronged if a game makes these kinds of decisions to create missed opportunities. A game that does this very well is the souls series and Elden ring or blood bourn. But the replay factor of those games is more logical because you have new game plus or you just role a different flavor character. Its not the same time commitment to get the "achievements".
We live in the day and age of the internet. There will be a website where they've compiled all the quests, choices and rewards. All you have to do is just search for it and see what's the outcome.
It's cool to see more of this in mmorpgs, even embers adrift has something similar this and it's a nice thing but you can also through your choices can get locked out of a quest entirely lol so pick carefully.
SWTOR is the closest I can think of with branching dialogues but it was still tied to a single narrative. I think there's a big difference between a world lore with quests that feel meaningful, little vingette stories, versus full on deep long narratives like SWTOR (or FFXIV and more recently WoW)
@@Redbeardflynn Yea always enjoyed them in SWTOR but it did all feel a bit samey at some points just an illusion of choice, still fun anyhow to have in a game.
One thing that annoys me about open world games is when something happens and there's no source, it's just ambience. When I hear about a town being bustling and having people playing music, there better be people everywhere and some playing music. When I hear a frog, there needs to be a frog.
Everytime I went into Halnir Cave I died so, I stopped doing it... ;-; Edit: About the system, I don't think it's as complex for a small team as you think, on the contrary. It can get complex if they create long conversations with NPC's with many choices in a row or if you have a reactive group of NPC's in your party that's constantly reacting to your choices, but I don't think this is what they will do in Pantheon. I assume they will make simple dialogues that present information and gives you one of two flags. Instead of thinking of it as a bunch of conditionals, think of the flag as a note you add to a notebook so, when you find a new ping or choose a dialog option, you add a new note and this note will become the most important. At this point, the previous notes are not important for the developer anymore because, when they add a follow up to this note, all they have to check is if you have the last one and, if you do, you'll be able to se a new ping or get a new dialogue from an NPC, which will give you a newer note and so on... So it's amore emergent way to develop a narrative. The reason I know it's not so complex is because I came up with a similar approach for a traditional roguelike I started making in 2018 and, the reason I made it this way is exactly because it's easier than making complex dialogue options. You don't need long conversations with NPC, you present new information and either add a new flag or not.
@@Redbeardflynn I think finding a decent group is the tough part, I mean as getting people that are used to playing together instead of randoms. But I plan to get back there after level 20 (currently 18) for the experience, because the atmosphere is really nice.
Miss-able content + slow, difficult leveling = wiki Yeah, this just means everyone is going to be following a wiki the entire time. The game is too punishing to risk missing things due to an incorrect dialog choice. This will not turn out the way they think it will. Like pretty much every MMO and action RPG this will just become another meta and the vast majority will have an almost identical experience. Most of us old EverQuest players enjoy a challenge but holy crap I have two small kids. I can't be re-rolling characters because I missed a quest. That's in addition to the exp loss and corpse recovery already.
Depends on your goal. Is your goal to min-max and be the best or the fastest and experience all the things? Or just to play when you have time progress and enjoy that experience when you have it? I played EQ in two very different ways: 2000-2004 I had no idea what I was doing and I leveled incredibly slow and missed out on 90% of the game. 2016-2020 I did every raid, every group, raided 2-3 nights a week. and went through every expansion on a progression server. Both were great experiences in their own way. I don't think I'll ever try to min-max in an MMO again, though.
The exp loss really isn't that bad. It's 5% and rezzes can give exp back. I was in Halnir Cave last night and we were cursed and I kept dying on pulls (or bad luck causing wipes). I died about 10 times and still managed to get a level. Even without a rez, a few kills and you have most if not all of your exp back.
@@MrEevilways I think where the exp loss feels painful for players most are: - Pullers who die a *lot* - Tanks ^ - Breaking into dungeons like Halnir for the first time. exp rezzes giving 0% or 25% at those levels. It'll even out I imagine but its an adjustment for people. I'm still in favor of corpse recover giving back 25% of your exp loss to give players some agency. It used to actually kind of be this way with spirit shards in pantheon but that was removed over a year ago.
I dont understand the concept some ppl talk about it being more enjoiable to play without map. Even if you played an mmorpg based on neandrethals they would still carve some type of map onto som deer hide or whatever, with charcoal...
Not no map. No radar minimap. Different things. But if you find that it's not for you that's totally fine but as hard as it is to believe, yes, many of us prefer mot having a map because it's more immersive
I realize that the game is heading towards a very group driven game and I have 0 problems with this. But, if you’re in a group you should just be harder to kill. I don’t have much issue with the ping thing, but, the game is going to need to stand out as an EQ advanced. Graphics have improved a lot. But I’m curious about something, if no addon packages then if not then why not add in an AI voice over thing like you can download for WOW. 10 people??wow so I guess that they are building this to show off for investors..
But 40€ is too much for a game that still miss such important feature after this long development time. For me the main problem of these new MMORPGs(I put also Ashes of creation in this argument) is that they expect people to pay for being beta testers,so something that once was a payed job now is the opposite,you pay for work.
I see your arguement, but i'll counter with that I have nearly 200 hrs in the game, of which I have enjoyed almost all of i. So, in turn I feel I have gotten my monies worth even if its not a complete game. 200 hrs of entertainment, of a game I been waiting to get my hands on for years, and that 40 goes towards development, to a dedicated team that cares. I'll take it. I havent had this feeling in an mmo since probably 2013 when i first stepped foot into FFXIV ARR, and even then maybe 2004 when i started wow, or quite possibly 2000 when i started playing EQ for the first time. To have that new sense of wonder and curiousity to go explore isnt hindered by the limited content, it just means there is more to come for me to be excited by. I am bad at math, but 40 dollars for 40 hrs is a 1 to 1 ration, for me this is well beyond that.
This argument has actually gotten kind of tiresome (not against you, just in general). You're not paying to beta test. You are buying the game itself. You get the benefit of playing before it releases. You're not buying beta now, then when it launches you buy the game. Playing a game in an alpha or beta state isn't for everyone, and that's fine. People need to stop acting like they're buying an alpha/beta game though when they're buying the game upon release. Games offer a head start for preorders. I've never heard someone say, "I can't believe you're making me pay $40 (or whatever) to play head start!" Yes, this isn't head start. But you're getting likely 2 years of playing the game before launch. If they go with a subscription at launch, you will have had 2 years of "free play" compared to a common 1 month if you buy the game post launch.
oh boy, missable content in a game with a 500 hour grind to max level? Guess I'm gonna not touch anything until someone puts out an "optimal quest path" guide
@@Redbeardflynn there is nothing stopping you from going to explore and kill mobs in any area for loot even if you've outleveled the place, or go back to solo lower level group areas
I am not a fan of the "Choose your own adventure" game play in my MMO. Those choices make sense in an RPG that is really just a solo player offline game with a save that can be reloaded and a new choice made differenlty, quickly and easily. I am not going to say it cannot be done well, but I am very sceptical at this time. With a 10 man team, this is biting off more than they can chew. Get more of your core game playable and functioning correctly.
Unfortunately if they abandon it now itll be abandoning a core tenet the game was sold as having from the start. The game needs to be more than a monster slayer simulator to meet the expectations they set. This is a big part of it. And I'd actually say most of tha core game is functioning correctly. It's infinitely playable from a combat perspective. Just needs more. Perception is the most underdeveloped part of the game imo
Me wishing i had PC instead of expensive console. =/ I miss being a MMO nerd. Console MMO just doesnt scratch the itch. They are too easy and all about rushing through low lvl to get to end game
In the past I would have suggested that console mmos would lean that way because of the lack of socializing due to not being able to communicate but now with voice chat...It'd be great if more mmos could be ported to consoles.
Except they are. Everquest and classic wow are prime examples. Progression servers and classic wow and season of discovery are all essentially replayabilty. As is making an alt. Seeking infinite growth if your mmo comes with a built in pitfall, the start of the game becomes no longer playable. That's how you get purchasable content skips and level boosts. Replayability in an mmo elongates the lifespan of content
@@Redbeardflynn wow shouldnt be used as an example, even classic is not a real mmo its an elaborate lobby. several mmos had no problem with this scheme. you had games like lineage1/2, baram with infinite/near infinite progression. EQ did something kind of like it with AA, and daoc also with realm points. People will make alts if they are unhappy with their current class. this shouldnt restrict people enjoying their class to run out of progression on it. I consider massive numbers of alts to be a sign of failure in an mmo, the game is not fulfilling its job as being a reality replacement/simulator where you become your character in a virtual world. You wind up just being some guy with a lot of characters in a game.
@sidraket mmos are first and foremost games. Not reality replacements. The start of mmos was basically "what if rpg, but online?" That's what Ultima online was that's what everquest was. Wow was made by everquest players (and yes it should be mentioned in mmo discussions) Simulated worlds are more like what meta tried to make. You do not need to spend all of your time in an mmo for the game to be good. It's ok for it just to be a game you play.
While this system is cool for an RPG, in an MMO where you are playing with friends, i think is not needed. OKay, my friend got the quest and I didn't, it just feels bad. I don't need this in my MMO.
I think it's incredibly needed to make the world feel alive. Quests in Pantheon aren't your method of gaining exp, they are not the core process of vertical achievement. Seeing your EQ avatar, did you and your friends do all the same quests in EQ? No, some were class locked, some were ridiculous hard, some were tradeskill locked, some required raid drops. It's very similar, just with more lore/storytelling which is very important.
This game is eq1 free to play copy pasta smaller version, but it costs 40 bucks . What a rip off . Grind in a stupid cave for the first 2 hours . Then get out in the world and there’s 1 small town . Borrrring.
The bees have a self sacrifice skill. I don't think it actually hits you for 100 it hits themselves for that but it can do significant damage but it blows the bee up too
This game looks amazing and I'm dying to give it a go. Big time FF11, Wow classic and FF14 player. Only 2 things preventing me from jumping into this: 1. Periodic wipes? This is a game players will invest hundreds of hours into. Surely you can't just wipe the servers every time a big patch lands? Is this still something they are doing in EA does anyone know? 2. Inventory loss upon death. That's just tedious, the XP loss is fine, but dying in a dungeon or far away from your spawn just means a mandatory long boring trip back to your corpse, and then having to deal with whatever killed you when you get there. If / when these issues are resolved, this game is getting a new cleric.... As for the content of this vid, looks awesome.... branching quests/outcomes sounds amazing....
Well periodic wipe is because is an early access so is OK and about inventory death mmmm idk I don't see like a big problem. I like star citizen and dayz so I guess is a good choice to make it as a roleplay
To loosely quote Jappa(in one of his last stream): The plan is to only wipe bevor 1.0 If there is Problem, they will exhaust every other option first. Ist's game dev so how knows witch problems will come up. So it's not impossible that there is a wipe but they don't want to. The goal is that the players can check out Early Access in different Stages of development with the same character. 2. Your group can carry your corps to a save spot. You can ask a Necromancer to summon your corps ore play a necromancer yourself. That said I will wait a few months bevor start playing. Maybe even till 1.0 I don't really want to play an early access game. I just don't have that much free Time for bugs and a lot of missing features.
@@chahat1598 thats good news. A wipe before 1.0 is expected and I have no issue with that. Just the inventory loss on death then I guess. I don't expect this to change as it's the same in everquest right?
@@paulus4539 The inventory loss isnt that big of a Deal. You will Most likely find a Necro who summons youre Corpse. Or a cleric/Shaman who revives you.
This is a blackhole that will sink the game. Like PvP. Anything that split the focus of this small of a team to anything other than to generate actual content is a waste of time and resources. I'm not saying the perception system isn't cool or smart. I'm saying it's dev suicide to even think they can build it up to something adequate.
While you like this Red Beard....the majority of the playerbase is going to careless about this option...most people skip the dialogue of most quest...and a couple of quest with optional chocies.....they wont care about it. You also keep talking about BG3...but each choice was a fully voiced over movie that made you feel amzing and in power....reading text and hitting yes or no...does not make me look forward to do more of these. Your passion is amazing but you are the very small minority of people who care about this system. Actually care...as in doing it when its not required.
@@SillyOne90 So what do the small minority of us who enjoy these things have to put up with? Isn't it more normal for people to decide for themselves and for those of us who do want to enjoy this option to have it? And that constant reference to BG3 is simply for the system of mechanics of choices, no need to take it further, I do not think anyone is comparing a game with the other, but some details of mechanics nothing more.
In this game yeah dont hold your breath, i will be glad they just flesh out the basic game, then in years to come they can add that. so far there are WAY to many other issues that needs fixing before fluff which this is to me.
I hope they integrate an AI controller for the game world, including the perception system. You continuously enter in the lore and parameters of the world and it naturally changes with choices and future events.
I really want to enjoy the game but you are way too pidgeon holded into group play and even everquest had a map to at least get an idea wth you are. I loved eq and even being able to solo with certain classes I dont know.
Everquest didn't have a map for years. It was added in later expansions and was very basic (players had to make it too) As for grouping, they've been working lately on making soloing more viable. Atm more people are actually complaining that past 20 soloing is more viable than grouping 😅
@@Eldred32It’s the difference between game mechanics vs finalized details within those mechanics. Not to say those details aren’t important, but they need to focus on getting the underlying mechanics in first. That’s why it’s early access.
In my personal opinion, based on what they've shown in showcases over the past 10-no, 5-no, 8, 10 years, it still feels like a scam. I don’t know what happened within the company, but they showcased something completely different. That said, I truly hope the game can deliver what it has shown and promised.
What happened was open development, mistakes, and the usual trajectory of a video game that you usually do not see. Evaluation builds and changes in art style. To call it a scam at this point when people are playing ot and having fun imo doesn't make much sense.
@@Redbeardflynn Thank you for the response, you are absolutely right. I will keep following the development through your videos. Congratulations on the great work!
First of all perception is already new content secondly no the game does not need more kill, kill and kill content the game needs different content which I am sure there will be in the final release in a few years. We are testing a game and giving solidity to the base, but it is not a finished game
This game is just like Brad mcQuaid's Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. A whole shitload of "potential" and "things coming" while still being an alpha after 10+ years of development. Only this time, there's no McQuaid buddy John Smedley with the backing of Sony to come bail these devs out.
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By popular demand...the enemy swagger after murdering our group: 3:00
I been watching these videos and never wated to pay Pantheon, after following it for years. But i saw it on steam and said wth, Ill go for it. Now Im fully addicted.
...wated
@@tordb wat?
Addicted to an empty bland world sure bro. Copium is a hell of a drug
@@OmegaProjectZero "You're wrong! You're not having fun!"
the swagger of that monster walking away after mass murdering your group. savage. at 3 mins 15 secs
That cryptling strutting away after he dunked on your group was :chef's kiss:
Interrupts are important boys
The game right now is pretty fun. Can’t wait to see what this thing looks like a year from now
This feels like an evolution of the Diplomacy/Speechcraft system they tried to implement in Vanguard. I liked that system in Vanguard, and I am excited to see how this plays out.
You inspire me to keep making videos, you're my favorite small channel. Thank you for doing what you do!
Oh that's amazing, thank you so much. All the best luck to you and your channel. It's a process but as long as you're finding it rewarding personally, keep going!
@Redbeardflynn you are so kind 😭 thanks for the advice
@Redbeardflynn honestly my favorite thing about TH-cam has been the community. I rarely get mean comments or anything like that. It's really motivating
@@frenchfriedtatersyoutube They'll come, but brush them off. You can't please everyone. and some people are just angry. Community building is freaking awesome. I feel very lucky.
My biggest complaint about this game is Trade Skills. There are players out there, and many players, including myself that love crafting. Why can't we have a toon that stays in town and only crafts? The trade skills linked to character level just isn't a good idea in my opinion, and others! Joppa needs to implement exp gains for crafting. I want a crafter that doesn't have to go out killing mobs!
I think this is the plan but requires more coding to get it done. Essentially a separate leveling system for crafting
@MrCwhitt Whats more annoying is the game forces you to craft, because of the idiotically high costs of basic gear on the vendors.
The game with the most interesting and challenging quests was Secret World. If you didnt look up the answers those were very difficult and satisfying. Hopefully their system will include difficult to attain info and clues rather than the normal easy conversation choice based stuff many games have.
This is true, wife and I enjoyed tsw precisely for this reason. I remember a quest where you had to decode a morse code or literally look up info about a person online via webbrowser etc. Sadly, with the f2p reboot of tsw, this got changed and the quests were dumbed down substantially because it was too complex for the normal Joe. It's not the same as before anymore ...
@@Alexander-ix2jp To be fair, those quests had a shelf life. Many of them encouraged you to use the in-game browser to research the answers... the problem with this was; search algorithms ended up directing you to the actual quest solution, because the puzzle/mystery was specific enough that searching accurately for it was the same as searching for the name of the quest.
Some of those Secret World quests were the hardest content I've ever worked through.
@duncanwallace It was also very annoying to have to alt tab out of game and look things up. Its one of the bad points on Secret World, not a good point.
Thank you for being an advocate of story in games. Having the choice being eventually brought in is great and personally lore expands the world.
0:03 calling it before I watch, this I about perception!
Hahah yes
Im so ready to play this. I gotta recoup from the holidays, but every update looks so good
so when pantheons alakazam is written up theyre just gonna list the branches and subsequent keys and rewards, and i imagine in some circumstances it could be a meta to go for one branch versus the others. i dont really see how this will benefit players enough to justify 5xing or 10xing the development time of quests
Good god, check the swagger on that lizard thing as he casually walks away after wiping your party!
I was hoping someone would notice that lol
What did he even do? Looked like an aoe wipe spell lol
@@Derek8487 yep! So he does two spells. One freezes you, the next one is an AOE that you have to interrupt
3:16 That swagger freaking killed me.
haha YES, I'm glad so many people are noticing it.
Wait, they only have 10 people? or 10 people working on quests?
10 people working on the game
@@Redbeardflynn Ouch, I hope the injection of cash they got with the Steam Early access lets them hire a few more Devs, 10 isn't many for an MMO.
That cryptling has swagger
It's a great idea and game mechanic. It will also require a tremendous increase to content creation, curation, and maintenance. For a cash strapped team with a delicate business model, it's very risky. It would be wiser to first focus on maybe applying models to the mobs still roaming around shaped like big 💊 s.
If they dont make it unique the game dies, have to take big swings if they dont want to have the game just die on release.
The biggest problem with game dev like this is they're *all* priorities. And they all need money. Art team, writing team, coding team. The more one gets pushed to the side the harder it is to get it back. What this stream demonstrated from Joppa is the system is there. Just needs the writing. My best guess (not confirmed) is that the flags are probably tied to only classes and such but flagging in general is just good to have in MMOs to increase what you can do versus "physical" keying (think PoP in EQ or multiple instances of internal flags in WoW)
@Redbeardflynn Yep and its on leadership to plan, cut and finagle it to be the best final product. Maybe they have to cut a system or two until later down the line. Fans need to look at this with hope but also understand the realities. What we all should hope for is a unique and very well designed/fun core that draws a playerbase then let the team really focus on additional fun/content. Im encouraged by what I see now but we need to see more and they need to clean some things up.
Pantheon is the perfect example of why teams dont/ shouldn't go public too early. At least its not star citizen whose business practices are atrocious for a game that will never be finished.
@AaronQ64 Not releasing too early or too late is the key. I don't build games, but have been leading teams that build complex consumer financial apps for many years. I know well the dance and tradeoffs. The challenges of a team that's languished for years.
This is why I warned these guys that
1. A release is a release. You will be judged harshly by your critics no matter the label (EA, pre-launch, alpha, beta). Those terms don't matter to the consumers. Just to the insiders and those adjacent to the insiders.
2. Never overpromise anything you can't deliver, ever.
3. Put most of your efforts into completing fundamentals to MVP before teasing new features.
I feel the team has only recently really become effective and the question now is if it's enough of too little too late. Soon, the many lower 20s players who came in through steam and who give zero f's about the storied history will run out of interesting content. Thus the reason they're making vids about the 💊 mobs floating about: they're getting bored. Soon they'll start making their own entertainment by metagaming, sploiting and trolling others. That will distract the small team even further as people then cry out for more and more moderation and community tools.
My point being, 20 people can't handle this while completing content and chasing new features. They have to ruthlessly prioritize now that the game is released.
Also, the infra costs will catch up soon. They need to charge a minimum of about $40USD/mo to break even on infra at scale if they're going to avoid cash shops and microtxns.
I'm yet to see this level of professional maturity from the team, but they are headed the right direction.
@@AaronQ64 I dont think Pantheon went public early because it wanted to, nor SC, nor AoC...etc. Its a symptom of a genre that has been largely abandoned by investment without the caveat of aggressive monetization to quickly recoup investment from whales willing to spend tons of money. Going public as early as these projects did was necessity, not choice.
I do believe it was supposed to be a skill everyone could level up and whatnot. Some people might get a ping and others not, all based on their perception skill level. Those who explored more would see more pings. I think this is a good way to do it. Mostly so that their could be things not found on the internet either because they were not found, or the few that have found it want to keep it a secret and rare.
I remember Joppa mentioning just that in the stream before this one. Today's stream he went all in and the stream right before that, he explained what you just said. If executed properly, this will add a level of depth unheard of. I actually *think* I remember Brad talking about that "leveling up" perception mechanic during one of his discussions (years ago), thus making it harder for content creators to just make a "one size fits all" guide on "what happens next". This would actually help mend the common problem in MMORPGs which is "content consumption" or the rate at which it's completely and/or revealed to the general public thus creating more mystery and discovery even years later. Best part is the devs can add to it as the years progress without having to "shatter" the world (like WoW) or keep piling on expansions (like EQ)
Really cool concept but they'll definitely need help to execute this seamlessly.
You can make the replayability argument because by itself that fits, but in a game like pantheon where its a grind and huge time investment to advance your character, todays player is going to be pissed off that there's no way to go back and "fix" a decision they made. Think about your experiences in real life just going to a big box store to buy a product. Do you not take out your smart phone and google reviews of the products to try and discern the best choice so you feel good about your purchase? This is what we've been conditioned to do not just by games, but by culture. We want to learn from the choices others have made so that we feel we are making the best choice. Todays players almost feel slighted or wronged if a game makes these kinds of decisions to create missed opportunities. A game that does this very well is the souls series and Elden ring or blood bourn. But the replay factor of those games is more logical because you have new game plus or you just role a different flavor character. Its not the same time commitment to get the "achievements".
We live in the day and age of the internet. There will be a website where they've compiled all the quests, choices and rewards. All you have to do is just search for it and see what's the outcome.
It's cool to see more of this in mmorpgs, even embers adrift has something similar this and it's a nice thing but you can also through your choices can get locked out of a quest entirely lol so pick carefully.
SWTOR is the closest I can think of with branching dialogues but it was still tied to a single narrative. I think there's a big difference between a world lore with quests that feel meaningful, little vingette stories, versus full on deep long narratives like SWTOR (or FFXIV and more recently WoW)
@@Redbeardflynn Yea always enjoyed them in SWTOR but it did all feel a bit samey at some points just an illusion of choice, still fun anyhow to have in a game.
I played during seasons. I am waiting for perception to come back.
One thing that annoys me about open world games is when something happens and there's no source, it's just ambience. When I hear about a town being bustling and having people playing music, there better be people everywhere and some playing music. When I hear a frog, there needs to be a frog.
Everytime I went into Halnir Cave I died so, I stopped doing it... ;-;
Edit:
About the system, I don't think it's as complex for a small team as you think, on the contrary.
It can get complex if they create long conversations with NPC's with many choices in a row or if you have a reactive group of NPC's in your party that's constantly reacting to your choices, but I don't think this is what they will do in Pantheon. I assume they will make simple dialogues that present information and gives you one of two flags.
Instead of thinking of it as a bunch of conditionals, think of the flag as a note you add to a notebook so, when you find a new ping or choose a dialog option, you add a new note and this note will become the most important. At this point, the previous notes are not important for the developer anymore because, when they add a follow up to this note, all they have to check is if you have the last one and, if you do, you'll be able to se a new ping or get a new dialogue from an NPC, which will give you a newer note and so on... So it's amore emergent way to develop a narrative.
The reason I know it's not so complex is because I came up with a similar approach for a traditional roguelike I started making in 2018 and, the reason I made it this way is exactly because it's easier than making complex dialogue options. You don't need long conversations with NPC, you present new information and either add a new flag or not.
It's pretty rough, but if you can get a decent group together the entrance is fairly safe. It's just usually camped in my experience.
@@Redbeardflynn I think finding a decent group is the tough part, I mean as getting people that are used to playing together instead of randoms. But I plan to get back there after level 20 (currently 18) for the experience, because the atmosphere is really nice.
Miss-able content + slow, difficult leveling = wiki
Yeah, this just means everyone is going to be following a wiki the entire time. The game is too punishing to risk missing things due to an incorrect dialog choice. This will not turn out the way they think it will.
Like pretty much every MMO and action RPG this will just become another meta and the vast majority will have an almost identical experience.
Most of us old EverQuest players enjoy a challenge but holy crap I have two small kids. I can't be re-rolling characters because I missed a quest. That's in addition to the exp loss and corpse recovery already.
Depends on your goal. Is your goal to min-max and be the best or the fastest and experience all the things? Or just to play when you have time progress and enjoy that experience when you have it?
I played EQ in two very different ways: 2000-2004 I had no idea what I was doing and I leveled incredibly slow and missed out on 90% of the game. 2016-2020 I did every raid, every group, raided 2-3 nights a week. and went through every expansion on a progression server.
Both were great experiences in their own way. I don't think I'll ever try to min-max in an MMO again, though.
this extreme exp loss when you die just completely destroys my desire to explore anything and will probably make me never play this game again
Leave feedback on their discord. The game is still in EA.
The exp loss really isn't that bad. It's 5% and rezzes can give exp back. I was in Halnir Cave last night and we were cursed and I kept dying on pulls (or bad luck causing wipes). I died about 10 times and still managed to get a level. Even without a rez, a few kills and you have most if not all of your exp back.
@@MrEevilways I think where the exp loss feels painful for players most are:
- Pullers who die a *lot*
- Tanks ^
- Breaking into dungeons like Halnir for the first time.
exp rezzes giving 0% or 25% at those levels. It'll even out I imagine but its an adjustment for people. I'm still in favor of corpse recover giving back 25% of your exp loss to give players some agency. It used to actually kind of be this way with spirit shards in pantheon but that was removed over a year ago.
Thanks for the explanation mate.
I dont understand the concept some ppl talk about it being more enjoiable to play without map. Even if you played an mmorpg based on neandrethals they would still carve some type of map onto som deer hide or whatever, with charcoal...
seems like developers took an easy shortcut with a lame excuse
Not no map. No radar minimap. Different things. But if you find that it's not for you that's totally fine but as hard as it is to believe, yes, many of us prefer mot having a map because it's more immersive
Will there be more languages in the game?
I believe it's something in their long-term plans but no idea how much they'll be able to localize.
this is going to trip a lot of people FOMO feeling
So they make different choices with an alt.. This is one reason why people are still playing BG3.
^ Exactly this.
FOMO feeling is pretty normal in an MMO. Raids, Groups, timed events, leveling, items. It's all in a sense driven by FOMO.
I Love this game.
I realize that the game is heading towards a very group driven game and I have 0 problems with this. But, if you’re in a group you should just be harder to kill. I don’t have much issue with the ping thing, but, the game is going to need to stand out as an EQ advanced.
Graphics have improved a lot. But I’m curious about something, if no addon packages then if not then why not add in an AI voice over thing like you can download for WOW. 10 people??wow so I guess that they are building this to show off for investors..
I like the pings,
But 40€ is too much for a game that still miss such important feature after this long development time.
For me the main problem of these new MMORPGs(I put also Ashes of creation in this argument) is that they expect people to pay for being beta testers,so something that once was a payed job now is the opposite,you pay for work.
It's a crowd funded mmo, without a publisher. It doesn't have the funding to be in closed development.
I see your arguement, but i'll counter with that I have nearly 200 hrs in the game, of which I have enjoyed almost all of i. So, in turn I feel I have gotten my monies worth even if its not a complete game. 200 hrs of entertainment, of a game I been waiting to get my hands on for years, and that 40 goes towards development, to a dedicated team that cares. I'll take it. I havent had this feeling in an mmo since probably 2013 when i first stepped foot into FFXIV ARR, and even then maybe 2004 when i started wow, or quite possibly 2000 when i started playing EQ for the first time. To have that new sense of wonder and curiousity to go explore isnt hindered by the limited content, it just means there is more to come for me to be excited by. I am bad at math, but 40 dollars for 40 hrs is a 1 to 1 ration, for me this is well beyond that.
This argument has actually gotten kind of tiresome (not against you, just in general). You're not paying to beta test. You are buying the game itself. You get the benefit of playing before it releases. You're not buying beta now, then when it launches you buy the game. Playing a game in an alpha or beta state isn't for everyone, and that's fine. People need to stop acting like they're buying an alpha/beta game though when they're buying the game upon release.
Games offer a head start for preorders. I've never heard someone say, "I can't believe you're making me pay $40 (or whatever) to play head start!" Yes, this isn't head start. But you're getting likely 2 years of playing the game before launch. If they go with a subscription at launch, you will have had 2 years of "free play" compared to a common 1 month if you buy the game post launch.
@@MrEevilways But if they'll go for the sub model then you're screwed if you don't want to pay.
oh boy, missable content in a game with a 500 hour grind to max level? Guess I'm gonna not touch anything until someone puts out an "optimal quest path" guide
You already have missable content. You can't level in every area because there are overlaps.
@@Redbeardflynn there is nothing stopping you from going to explore and kill mobs in any area for loot even if you've outleveled the place, or go back to solo lower level group areas
I am not a fan of the "Choose your own adventure" game play in my MMO. Those choices make sense in an RPG that is really just a solo player offline game with a save that can be reloaded and a new choice made differenlty, quickly and easily. I am not going to say it cannot be done well, but I am very sceptical at this time. With a 10 man team, this is biting off more than they can chew. Get more of your core game playable and functioning correctly.
Unfortunately if they abandon it now itll be abandoning a core tenet the game was sold as having from the start. The game needs to be more than a monster slayer simulator to meet the expectations they set. This is a big part of it. And I'd actually say most of tha core game is functioning correctly. It's infinitely playable from a combat perspective. Just needs more. Perception is the most underdeveloped part of the game imo
I would prefer PvE more like Vanguard & Dark Age of Camelot than Classic EverQuest.
In what way? Combat? Questing?
Me wishing i had PC instead of expensive console. =/ I miss being a MMO nerd. Console MMO just doesnt scratch the itch. They are too easy and all about rushing through low lvl to get to end game
In the past I would have suggested that console mmos would lean that way because of the lack of socializing due to not being able to communicate but now with voice chat...It'd be great if more mmos could be ported to consoles.
you dont want an mmo to be 'replayable', its supposed to be perpetually playable. no end from which you start over again from
Except they are. Everquest and classic wow are prime examples. Progression servers and classic wow and season of discovery are all essentially replayabilty. As is making an alt.
Seeking infinite growth if your mmo comes with a built in pitfall, the start of the game becomes no longer playable. That's how you get purchasable content skips and level boosts. Replayability in an mmo elongates the lifespan of content
@@Redbeardflynn wow shouldnt be used as an example, even classic is not a real mmo its an elaborate lobby. several mmos had no problem with this scheme. you had games like lineage1/2, baram with infinite/near infinite progression. EQ did something kind of like it with AA, and daoc also with realm points. People will make alts if they are unhappy with their current class. this shouldnt restrict people enjoying their class to run out of progression on it. I consider massive numbers of alts to be a sign of failure in an mmo, the game is not fulfilling its job as being a reality replacement/simulator where you become your character in a virtual world. You wind up just being some guy with a lot of characters in a game.
@sidraket mmos are first and foremost games. Not reality replacements. The start of mmos was basically "what if rpg, but online?" That's what Ultima online was that's what everquest was. Wow was made by everquest players (and yes it should be mentioned in mmo discussions)
Simulated worlds are more like what meta tried to make. You do not need to spend all of your time in an mmo for the game to be good. It's ok for it just to be a game you play.
While this system is cool for an RPG, in an MMO where you are playing with friends, i think is not needed. OKay, my friend got the quest and I didn't, it just feels bad. I don't need this in my MMO.
I think it's incredibly needed to make the world feel alive. Quests in Pantheon aren't your method of gaining exp, they are not the core process of vertical achievement. Seeing your EQ avatar, did you and your friends do all the same quests in EQ? No, some were class locked, some were ridiculous hard, some were tradeskill locked, some required raid drops.
It's very similar, just with more lore/storytelling which is very important.
This game is eq1 free to play copy pasta smaller version, but it costs 40 bucks . What a rip off . Grind in a stupid cave for the first 2 hours . Then get out in the world and there’s 1 small town . Borrrring.
Thats...functionally not true 😅 you realize there's 6 zones yeah ans that it's still in early access and active development?
Certain npc's are very overtuned and need adjusted badly. Like random bees that hit you for 100 at level 10 for no random reason.
The bees have a self sacrifice skill. I don't think it actually hits you for 100 it hits themselves for that but it can do significant damage but it blows the bee up too
@@Redbeardflynn Seriously? I haven't seen this yet and I love it! Kind of want to go bee hunting now.
Bam...first. Thanks for your vids man. Love seeing your take on things.
Haha well done! Thank you so much.
This game looks amazing and I'm dying to give it a go. Big time FF11, Wow classic and FF14 player.
Only 2 things preventing me from jumping into this:
1. Periodic wipes? This is a game players will invest hundreds of hours into. Surely you can't just wipe the servers every time a big patch lands? Is this still something they are doing in EA does anyone know?
2. Inventory loss upon death. That's just tedious, the XP loss is fine, but dying in a dungeon or far away from your spawn just means a mandatory long boring trip back to your corpse, and then having to deal with whatever killed you when you get there.
If / when these issues are resolved, this game is getting a new cleric....
As for the content of this vid, looks awesome.... branching quests/outcomes sounds amazing....
Well periodic wipe is because is an early access so is OK and about inventory death mmmm idk I don't see like a big problem. I like star citizen and dayz so I guess is a good choice to make it as a roleplay
To loosely quote Jappa(in one of his last stream):
The plan is to only wipe bevor 1.0
If there is Problem, they will exhaust every other option first.
Ist's game dev so how knows witch problems will come up. So it's not impossible that there is a wipe but they don't want to.
The goal is that the players can check out Early Access in different Stages of development with the same character.
2.
Your group can carry your corps to a save spot.
You can ask a Necromancer to summon your corps ore play a necromancer yourself.
That said I will wait a few months bevor start playing. Maybe even till 1.0
I don't really want to play an early access game. I just don't have that much free Time for bugs and a lot of missing features.
@@chahat1598 wow I didn't know that about the necro and carry Corp is pretty amazing is OK if you don't want to play early access is better to wait
@@chahat1598 thats good news. A wipe before 1.0 is expected and I have no issue with that.
Just the inventory loss on death then I guess. I don't expect this to change as it's the same in everquest right?
@@paulus4539 The inventory loss isnt that big of a Deal. You will Most likely find a Necro who summons youre Corpse. Or a cleric/Shaman who revives you.
This is a blackhole that will sink the game. Like PvP. Anything that split the focus of this small of a team to anything other than to generate actual content is a waste of time and resources. I'm not saying the perception system isn't cool or smart. I'm saying it's dev suicide to even think they can build it up to something adequate.
To abandon it would be to abandon the original vision of the game
While you like this Red Beard....the majority of the playerbase is going to careless about this option...most people skip the dialogue of most quest...and a couple of quest with optional chocies.....they wont care about it. You also keep talking about BG3...but each choice was a fully voiced over movie that made you feel amzing and in power....reading text and hitting yes or no...does not make me look forward to do more of these. Your passion is amazing but you are the very small minority of people who care about this system. Actually care...as in doing it when its not required.
@@SillyOne90 So what do the small minority of us who enjoy these things have to put up with? Isn't it more normal for people to decide for themselves and for those of us who do want to enjoy this option to have it?
And that constant reference to BG3 is simply for the system of mechanics of choices, no need to take it further, I do not think anyone is comparing a game with the other, but some details of mechanics nothing more.
Mounts?
Noooooo
In this game yeah dont hold your breath, i will be glad they just flesh out the basic game, then in years to come they can add that. so far there are WAY to many other issues that needs fixing before fluff which this is to me.
I hope they integrate an AI controller for the game world, including the perception system. You continuously enter in the lore and parameters of the world and it naturally changes with choices and future events.
Please no. Hire real writers. Spoken as a writer.
I really want to enjoy the game but you are way too pidgeon holded into group play and even everquest had a map to at least get an idea wth you are. I loved eq and even being able to solo with certain classes I dont know.
Everquest didn't have a map for years. It was added in later expansions and was very basic (players had to make it too)
As for grouping, they've been working lately on making soloing more viable. Atm more people are actually complaining that past 20 soloing is more viable than grouping 😅
many people in the game are actually complaining that soloing is TOO viable. Makes it harder to find groups.
The Auction House?
The game lacks basic things and here we are talking about branching dialogues in quests....
@@Eldred32It’s the difference between game mechanics vs finalized details within those mechanics. Not to say those details aren’t important, but they need to focus on getting the underlying mechanics in first. That’s why it’s early access.
/auction
Personally… Do not care about this system at all in an mmo. Not even in the slightest. But, whatever floats your boat.
😅 ok
In my personal opinion, based on what they've shown in showcases over the past 10-no, 5-no, 8, 10 years, it still feels like a scam. I don’t know what happened within the company, but they showcased something completely different.
That said, I truly hope the game can deliver what it has shown and promised.
What happened was open development, mistakes, and the usual trajectory of a video game that you usually do not see. Evaluation builds and changes in art style. To call it a scam at this point when people are playing ot and having fun imo doesn't make much sense.
"The Day Before" , now that was a scam.
@@Redbeardflynn Thank you for the response, you are absolutely right. I will keep following the development through your videos. Congratulations on the great work!
Seriously, don’t use the clickbait “this changes everything” in your clickbait;it sounds idiotic.
Lol ok. It does change everything to me.
Forget perception. The game needs content. Especially Wilds end.
First of all perception is already new content secondly no the game does not need more kill, kill and kill content the game needs different content which I am sure there will be in the final release in a few years. We are testing a game and giving solidity to the base, but it is not a finished game
We have too much game about kill a kill I will enjoy more roleplay mechanic than Just kill
Maybe get a life and stop playing 24 hours a day ya dweebs. We can't even get a game anymore because you guys need 500 million hours of gameplay.
This game is just like Brad mcQuaid's Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. A whole shitload of "potential" and "things coming" while still being an alpha after 10+ years of development. Only this time, there's no McQuaid buddy John Smedley with the backing of Sony to come bail these devs out.