So ironically it’s quite an Apple type move where the listener is locked out of controlling the codec selection. My read from this video is that lossless just can’t be consistently stable over Bluetooth so the best you will get is the occasional lossless playback in a adaptive variable playback that you have no control over and is marketed as lossless.
imo its ldac alternative, as ldac scales down and up, same with aptx now, just qualcomm named their perfect condition loseless, sony could have done that too, but they didnt.
In Sennheiser momentum 4 true wireless app you can select the codec, either Aptx Adaptive or Aptx lossless, and afterwards in android developer settings you can for Aptx Adaptive select the 48 or 96 khz.
Nerdy? Yes. But, I enjoyed it very much. And I’m an iPhone user. Which I heard the disclaimer in the beginning of the video, yet I watched it all the way until the end. A testament to how interesting and informative your videos are. Thank you.
Some clarifications: 1. SBC is adaptive as well, not only LDAC. SBC codes adjust the "bitpool" parameter, depending on the connection. 2. By default, most SBC codecs are configured with comparatively low quality settings, but we can adjust parameters. I currently run SBC at 684 kbps. It's easy to run SBC at higher rates as well, e.g. 990 kbps, but at some point you run the risk of producing dropouts when you hit the bandwidth limits of the Bluetooth connection. 3. LDAC fares worse in listening tests, compared to SBC-With-High-Data-Rates and/or AptX. Don't use LDAC. 4. Some codecs, like AptX, compresse audio data not by removing content, but by increasing noise. LDAC and SBC remove audio data.
interesting cose for me ldac sounds the best, run from windows 11 by a2dp driver, while i can switch between sbc, aac, aptX aptX hd and ldac, and ldac is simply the best quality for me
The vast memory of wired headphones do not have active noise cancellation, so I wouldn’t agree they are the best audio experience unless you’re at home or some other quiet location.
In my experience, LDAC has been a game-changer. It's been the most reliable for sound quality and constant uninterrupted connection which was something that plagued my many other Bluetooth headphones/iems. I also agree that the hardware makes a bigger difference. For me the now old Sony WFXM3's are just unbeatable! I love them and they can be had for so little now relative to their new price.
Sony is great, I have the headphone Wh-1000XM4 its very nice, but it gets too hot in the summer. Now I give a chance for Technics EAH-AZ80. This premium brand is owned by Panasonic in 1965. I've watched a lot of comparison videos, most of the time this one came out on top. I can't wait to use it, I'm very curious about it.
For me the problem lies with Apple. The way to get a Mac to work with AptX codecs, is normally by using Bluetooth Explorer from Apple. But... it doesn't seem to work with Silicon Macs, and Apple hasn't updated the app. Love to see you do a post on getting the best Bluetooth audio from a Mac. I hate it that my Android phone, using LDAC, sounds so much better with a Bluetooth receiver than my new Mac!
Try the sennheiser BTD 600. You can get AptX quality audio on your Mac or iPad Pro. I hear it works with the iPhone 15 Pro Max also. But I haven’t tested this. Absolute game changer using focal Bathys or momentum 4 or TWM4 with Apple devices.
Great Video, John Darko. Thank you; I listened all the way to the end! Yes, it was technical. However, it is necessary to understand this subject for buying or upgrading purposes. Nobody else explains this material, for the most part, better than you. Thanks Again
Yeah it was nerdy but really liked it. Kinda confirmed all my suspicions. To get real lossless on wireless there are just too many factors in play (phone, IEM/headphones, software, bluetooth chips and the air in between). So wired for quality and wireless for ease of use it is 😊
Take into the equation the noise floor out on the street due to traffic and wind and it is all moot unless you turn up the sound level so much you'll likely cause long term hearing damage.
This Video really validates my experience of not being able to hear a difference in lossless vs normal music on my Sennheiser Momentum 4 (headphones, not TWS). I have a Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 phone, so I guess I'll try connecting via a USB cable next.
Great. That’s an improvement. With time they will perfect the technology and make it available across platforms. Keep up the good work Qualcomm. Thanks for the video John. Much appreciated!
Just as you said “…this is so nerdy” I was thinking “this is fantastic!” Thanks John. Love it. I’m in iPhone user and I have a DAC and a cable, but it’s still wonderfully interesting stuff to know.
Bluetooth is such a nightmare. It's 3.5mm headphones all the way for me. Few phones have the jack, but the USB C dongles are tiny and good these days. Nothing extra to charge, hard to lose, and It Just Works.
Which is still more than enough today. Anything more is useless. And if you hear a difference between a CD and high-res format, that’s probably because it wasn’t the same source material to start with.
to be fair, bluetooth buds are a new thing. 10 years ago, if someone saw 2 white airpods in your ears, they'd think you took your apple earphones and cut the cords off of them.
I know your thing is to be sarcastic but, come on, if you went back to 1990 and showed someone your phone and told them you can listen to anything you want that’s ever been recorded and stream that to ear phones that were not connected to the device at CD quality, they would wet themselves.
Neither what's CD quality on Tidal hifi is not CD quality 16bit 44khz. For me the physical CD sounds better than streaming. I bought 60 CDs in the last two years and I don't regret.
My head hurts. As an iPhone user, I’m looking forward to the day when Apple releases its updated AAC, with lossless - which is something they’re apparently working on. I won’t need a degree in audio codecs to know what the hell is playing on my earbuds!
John, I have to admit, recognize and congratulate you for how well structured your explanation is about aptX Lossless and aptX Adaptive, it was like having seen the best science fiction movie, complex, disconcerting at times but wow, what an amount of information so well developed. Yes, I love technology, innovation and nerdy things, as always excellent content, greetings from Mexico! You should seriously consider writing a science fiction novel, you have a great ability to explain complex topics.
Lossless is build on top of Adaptive so if the signal etc is not good enough it drops to Adaptive, it really is like a chasing a Unicorn and the newer using XPAN (BT+WIFI) will probably be more stable.
Excellent explanation ofJohn thank you, as a Sennheiser user I can say there is a notable difference between the two codecs Aptx and Aptx Adaptive. I recently started using the BTD600 dongle so I can extract every ounce of sound from my Momentum 4 since it enables the full AptX suite and you can even FEEL the difference. Tried that dongle with the MTW3s and the diference was not that perceptible. So I can agree in you conclusion: hardware totally matters at the end.
I had the Sennheiser momentum 4 tws. Great sound.But had some issues regarding connectivity and sound quality with lossless. I sold them and ordered the meze alba which are wired iems. Has also ordered the fiio fh1. Which also are wired. I like the functionality of Bluetooth and noice cancelling. But wired iems are often more comfortable. And sounds better. Its something with that wired analog sound. And the fact that it just works. Always when i have sold my wired iems or headphones, i almost always regrets. But its great to have from both world . Bluetooth and wired. 😀
I find it funny that these manufacturers mention codecs so much in marketing to promote their earbuds, when the difference is as you said in the video is practically inaudible, because of the limits of sound quality you can get in ~300$ wireless earbuds. I use Sony's WH-1000 XM5 headphones (that should have a much better sound quality than all current wireless earbuds), with LDAC on my phone, and I can ever so slightly hear a difference between a CD-quality file and a 320kbps mp3 one if I'm in a quiet environment and raise the volume a lot.
This is true. The difference between lossy and lossless is only noticeable in an ideal environment and when you fully focus on the audio. This is why audiophiles haven't always offer the most reliable advice. They also ignore the advantages of EQ, focusing solely on the unaltered initial audio performance of their headphone. 🙄
@DarkoAudio the Sennheiser momentum 4 true wireless control app allows you to select either Aptx Adaptive or AptX Lossless. If you after selecting Aptx Adaptive go into developer options you can select the bitrate to be either 48 or 96. In the Sennheiser control app select Aptx lossless and in developer options you only have 44.1 khz available. Funnily enough both have in developer options only 24 bit available and they are both called Aptx Adaptive. The Aptx Lossless should be 16 bit so the 24bit is a bit weird but if I get better lossless dynamic range who am I to complain. Another thing is that you can only play Hi-res 96khz files bit-perfect if you select Aptx Adaptive. AptX Lossless does not play files higher than CD-quality, but it plays CD-quality streaming very well.
I think Apple may have a trick up their sleeve that could trounce Bluetooth: ultra wideband (UWB). Unlike Bluetooth, UWB allows for much higher bandwidth, and that could make it possible for essentially Apple Lossless quality audio transmission. It's been available on the iPhone since the iPhone 11 generation.
Great video John. Not in any way confusing. I assume requirements are BT 5.3, Qualcomm Snapdragon, and the phone manufacturer to pay the appropriate licences. Samsung only pay for APT-X. Never APT-X HD or above. Because they have their own high quality codec... Would be good to tell your audience about this... They are a major player. Can't install a better codec either..
yes, ANY transducer in the audio chain distorts / changes the sound, you are so right the 'lossless' thing comes second to the actual earbuds. Similarly LP cartridges and the whole vinyl thing distorts the signal, hey lots of people like it - and why not - Marmite comes to mind for some reason 😅
AptX Lossless is an extension of AptX Adaptive But the problem is unlike LDAC, you have no control to enforce it running at lossless mode. They rely on the Qualcomm software solution for picking up the right mode which is unreliable in my own experience. Using Pixels as test source is a complete failure as well as it can't offer Android SRC bypass like Sony Xperia with her own music app. It is locked to 48KHz. So you are lossless in the codec but subject to SRC loss which completely lose the point.
Discovering that my Pixel 5 has...none of these HD codecs at all? So many pieces of hardware that need to meet a certified spec, I wonder if bluetooth will ever be lossless for most people using earbuds. If Apple made a shift to a lossless bluetooth codec, I think we might actually the industry make a large shift towards lossless bluetooth as the standard.
I love your videos and the effort to decipher the madness that is hi-res/lossless streaming over Bluetooth! I own all three earbuds as well as the Zenphone 10. I found to consistently stream 44.1khz on the PerL Pro I had to disable Aptx Adaptive Hi-Res 24bit 96khz streaming in the Qualcomm settings in Bluetooth settings. But even then, when I enter developer settings it still shows the connection is 24bit not 16bit. So yea even more confusing but basically I agree, going from regular Aptx to Aptx lossless is the slightest improvement. The same difference using the Denon PerL pro on my iPhone 15 pro with AAC vs Aptx Lossless.
I am using the Final Audio ZE3000 which has the aptX adaptive codec. It sounds phenomenal! For the first time, I felt that it could do justice to all those lossless albums that I’ve purchased and saved on my phone. At first, I attributed all of this excellence to aptX adaptive; but gradually, when I played those same songs from devices that did not support aptX adaptive, I realized that the hardware of the ZE3000 was as much in play as the codec. So I agree with your conclusion here. And John, thanks for reminding me of that Yorke and Donwood book! 🙌
Here is my two cents, I had my first Walkman in 1979, I was 9. I've decimated my hearing to terrible levels, Tinnitus on blast. I think that the subtle difference in sound from a low cost earphone to a fancy one is so lost on me at this point. And I believe that I am not the only one here. The wheels of progress keep turning don't they.
Yes, a full blown Tinnitus sufferer here that loves music. I love playing it on my guitar and hearing it. I thought if I ever had a TH-cam channel I would call it the "Handicapped Audiophile." ;-)
while cycling, running or workouts its not comfy, wireless is very practical these days and im happy we are moving closer to cd quality, with bt 6 or future version we might get even better quality, beyond cd quality most people cant tell diference unless they are audiophiles or musicians. if they can make stable cd quality with bt, im absolutely fine with that over wires and mess
Your videos are great Darko. Casual 25 year old iPhone user here and hoping to start upgrading my audio gear as soon as I’m able to afford nicer gear haha. Super informative and thanks for sharing
My friend, I guess that's because your Samsung works over an Exynos CPU. Apparently Samsung uses Qualcomm chips in some regions and Exynos in sone others, the last being compatible with neither aptX HD nor Adaptive. However, the PX8 must be great headphones anyway.
Hi mate@@davidferrandez470 Yes I am in Australia which now uses Qualcomm...from google...Performance. The Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra uses a brand spanking new 8th generation Qualcomm Snapdragon processor. This would usually be inconsequential to us Australians, as we usually get Samsung's proprietary Exynos processors instead. Not anymore! Yes PX8 are a great set of cans, I also use Truthear Hexa, and you?
I’d like to add The Sennheiser BTD 600 Bluetooth Transmitter Adapter for Mac and PC and also work on iPad Pro . Adds AptX quality sound to your Device. Yes Apple Devices can use AptX quality Bluetooth with the BTD 600 Dongle. Absolutely a game changer. I sincerely hope Darko does a review on this. Using the sennheiser TWM4 with the MacBook with AptX quality audio or the iPad Pro sounds amazingly good. Hope someone reads this.
Hardware at this stage definitely matters more. I have IE600 on portable amp vs AAC momentum tw3 on iPhone….man….day and night in every aspect of the music. Yes I know it’s not fair comparison 😂 but still, I wish iPhone can support lossless Bluetooth
I tested weeks and month all Bluetooth codecs on the marked and can say u will not hear different between ladac and aac and no different between Alac and aac ( on a Apple device,aac sucks on android.) I used Meze 109 Pro ,Philips Fidelio x2hr ,x3 ,Sennheiser 660s2 , fiio jt1, Sony xm4 ,xm5, Philips Fidelio L4 ,AirPods Pro 2 and many different dac/amps and tablets like iPad Pro 12,9 M2 ,Xiaomi tab and more . These Bluetooth codecs are just marketing much more important is ur device and headphone .
Just read the article on the Zen Blue 3. Firstly, comparing the Bluetooth bit rates between different codecs and then to audio file formats is completely nonsensical. They are not comparable. The bit rate specified for a file format is the speed at which it needs to be read from local storage to playback without skipping or dropping out. It has nothing to do with what happens with Bluetooth. It would be about the speed it would be read from memory after the Bluetooth transmission is over. Bluetooth transmission rates are more comparable for their likely impact to energy usage and heat dissipation. They differ because their algorithms are different. Not because they’re telling you how much they’re throwing away under lossy conditions. The algorithms are usually proprietary and we don’t get to know exactly what they’re throwing away. So, comparing LDAC’s Bluetooth transmission rate with the read rate required for a FLAC file is like comparing apples and oranges. Even aptX Lossless shows this because it transmits at 1.2Mb and you need 1.4Mb for a 16-bit/44.1kHz AIFF from a CD. That’s the other thing John missed from his list of reasons to rain on aptX Lossless’s parade… it also only works when fed 16-bit/44.1kHz lossless sources when using the Classic Bluetooth variant. It supports 16-bit/48kHz when using the LEA variant, which is don’t think anyone has implemented yet. It does not convert other sample sizes/rates for lossless transmission. So, 24-bit sources will only be able to avail of lossy aptX Adaptive. They claim this iteration of aptX Adaptive delivers 80% of the original audio data but I’m not sure if that covers all sample rates up to 96kHz or it just covers 24-bit/44.1kHz. Also, the article doesn’t mention the Zen Blue 3 does support Bluetooth transmission. It’s not just a receiver. So, it could be useful for taking an analog source and transmitting it over aptX Lossless. That’s provided iFi’s ADC is supplying the analog audio as 16-bit/44.1kHz. Of course, you can use it with earbuds that support aptX Adaptive and aptX Lossless. It might also have been worthwhile mentioning that the FiiO BT11 USB-C dongle is coming soon and it also uses the QCC5181 and is compatible with all smartphones including the iPhone. It promises LDAC. We’re not sure if they have licensed aptX Lossless on it. I’d be surprised if it doesn’t support aptX Adaptive. The FLOOGOO FMA120 supports aptX Lossless and is available now but it’s a little less convenient as it’s a USB-A design. It’s intended for use with desktops/laptops but should work on anything supporting USB Audio 2.0.
For me as long I see 2 notifications 1)connected to Bluetooth device that supports Qualcomm aptX adaptive 2) connected to Bluetooth device that supports Snapdragon sound on my Sony Experia 5 mark V phone when my Denon Perl pro is connected,im more than elated !!
It's all gimmicks until someone builds an audiophile grade headphone [not earbud] that can make use of Aptx lossless. They don't even have one that can use LDAC yet, and LDAC has been around for years in ANC headphones.
Bluetooth is a mess. In terms of technology progression it's still in the traps. I know its useful but it drives me mad every day. Connecting and disconnecting whenever it feels like it to my headphones, car stereo and speaker.
Yes, infuriating, particularly on the S24 Ultra that has a Snapdragon chipset in it worldwide and could easily have access to the Snapdragon Sound suite. So many wireless headphones and earbuds use apt-x adaptive (and now lossless) instead of LDAC, and Samsung's stubborn refusal to go beyond vanilla apt-x support means that equipment from Dali, T&A, Denon, Focal, Bowers & Wilkins, Sennheiser, Bose, etc will not perform optimally with a Samsung flagship phone.
I hate this behaviour of samsung where they have blocked aptx/aptxhd/Lhdc (my s23) as they want us to buy their samsung tws to use SSC (samsung seamless) codec which is way way behind Qualcomm's aptx+.
I hardly ever use BT nevertheless I totally agree that the codec, sample and bit rate should be at least readily available information as it is for example in Roon, DACs etc
Using an iPhone, I can use any codec I want as long it is AAC 😂 begun looking at the new Sennheiser offering but there seem to be some issues according to other reviewers with transparency mode and microphone placement. When investing this I found raving reviews for Technics AZ80 so I am thinking of giving those a try, didn’t even knew Technics was in this space
I can now verify that Vivo X90 Pro+ can provide AptX Lossless to iDSD Diablo 2 via any player (not just Tidal). Diablo 2 at first shows green LED for Adaptive but after 23 seconds of playback switches LED to white. Previously X90 Pro+ was bugged in AptX Adaptive mode: sample rate was stuck at 48kHz preventing lossless. After I raised the issue they provided a fix and now sample rate is stuck at 44.1 kHz :)
I'm happy enough with LDAC on my phone due to use (moving around in noisy spaces). What I want is support of LDAC/Aptx Lossless in desktop devices, so I can enjoy that in my house. (Of course it's awesome it is getting better accross the board)
Hi John Darko. Tanks for a very informative video about apt lossless bluetooth, I think it was a bit nerdi but not to much., you do make great videos, keep going. on please. Thanks for yours big work and often with a bit of humør, that make it funny to watch and learn something from. Have a nice week Mr. John Darko. Vh Martin.
My thing is: why none of these manufacturers seem to have realized that this would be better achieved with a wired powered headphones that transmits *DATA* through the wire? I mean smartphones can send lossless audio to DACs, right? And a part of those Bluetooth headphones is essentially a DAC that receives data through radio, isn’t it? So would this really be like reinventing the wheel? That way, we would finally enjoy lossless audio with all the noise reduction technology that is now becoming standard for Bluetooth headphones… And we could also still enjoy the convenience of cable free audio every now and then, if such wired headphones were to also work with Bluetooth and a have detachable cable like… the one you use to charge your Bluetooth headphones… that might also be the one you use to both charge and transmits data to your phone… And that, right there, is what annoys me the most about it… It’s like the solution been right under our noses all along but nobody seemed to care enough to actually push it and make this a reality. I can’t be the only person who thought about this am I?
Apple has a possible solution using the U1/U2 ultra wideband (UWB) chip. UWB allows for a much higher bandwidth than Bluetooth 5.3/LDAC, and that could mean true wireless transmission of Apple Lossless audio.
Thanks great detailed update nothing to apologize about ....looking forward to more info on anything tech related ...looking forward to when codecs like snapdragon aptx lossless will be more main stream and verifiable with videos like these the manufacturers may be influenced to change their marketing strategy and be more transparent..
The newest USB AirPods Pro have a proprietary lossless mode but it only works with the Vision Pro, presumably because they don’t have to worry about range and interference. It’s a safe bet they’d improve it and put it in future AirPods for normal use. Hopefully you won’t also need a new phone.
To hell with the audio, where can I get the umbrella? 😆
For real … that umbrella is ace
Kinda want to do a tap dance and ride in a limo
I think it's available on the official merch store of Aphex Twin 😄 (idk if it's still in stock tho)
YES!! what he said! Want one
@@fakeklg a very, very long limo...
If a tree falls in the forest can an audiophile tell whether the sound is lossless?
Only if it's recorded. Then yes.
Yes but only if it is hardwood. Softwood is too soft.
Depends on if the tree fell in the matrix
As a hair, I heard the tree fall
Don’t think you need to excuse the nerdiness or complexity of this stuff. That’s what we’re all here for.
Bring back the headphone jack
It's there. You need to look for it.
So ironically it’s quite an Apple type move where the listener is locked out of controlling the codec selection. My read from this video is that lossless just can’t be consistently stable over Bluetooth so the best you will get is the occasional lossless playback in a adaptive variable playback that you have no control over and is marketed as lossless.
imo its ldac alternative, as ldac scales down and up, same with aptx now, just qualcomm named their perfect condition loseless, sony could have done that too, but they didnt.
In Sennheiser momentum 4 true wireless app you can select the codec, either Aptx Adaptive or Aptx lossless, and afterwards in android developer settings you can for Aptx Adaptive select the 48 or 96 khz.
Go wireless when you need convenience. Wire when you need quality. That's it for now. Bluetooth audio is messy things
Nuff said
Nerdy? Yes. But, I enjoyed it very much. And I’m an iPhone user. Which I heard the disclaimer in the beginning of the video, yet I watched it all the way until the end. A testament to how interesting and informative your videos are. Thank you.
Some clarifications: 1. SBC is adaptive as well, not only LDAC. SBC codes adjust the "bitpool" parameter, depending on the connection. 2. By default, most SBC codecs are configured with comparatively low quality settings, but we can adjust parameters. I currently run SBC at 684 kbps. It's easy to run SBC at higher rates as well, e.g. 990 kbps, but at some point you run the risk of producing dropouts when you hit the bandwidth limits of the Bluetooth connection. 3. LDAC fares worse in listening tests, compared to SBC-With-High-Data-Rates and/or AptX. Don't use LDAC. 4. Some codecs, like AptX, compresse audio data not by removing content, but by increasing noise. LDAC and SBC remove audio data.
interesting cose for me ldac sounds the best, run from windows 11 by a2dp driver, while i can switch between sbc, aac, aptX aptX hd and ldac, and ldac is simply the best quality for me
@@agent4704 for me as well
So nothing new then: If you want the best sound quality at all times you’ll want to use wired headphones, as always.
The vast memory of wired headphones do not have active noise cancellation, so I wouldn’t agree they are the best audio experience unless you’re at home or some other quiet location.
In my experience, LDAC has been a game-changer. It's been the most reliable for sound quality and constant uninterrupted connection which was something that plagued my many other Bluetooth headphones/iems.
I also agree that the hardware makes a bigger difference. For me the now old Sony WFXM3's are just unbeatable! I love them and they can be had for so little now relative to their new price.
Sony is great, I have the headphone Wh-1000XM4 its very nice, but it gets too hot in the summer. Now I give a chance for Technics EAH-AZ80. This premium brand is owned by Panasonic in 1965. I've watched a lot of comparison videos, most of the time this one came out on top. I can't wait to use it, I'm very curious about it.
BROTHER TRY FOCAL BATHYS WITH DAC MODE ON MOBILE WITH DUAL DAC LG V60 IS GAME OVER FOR YOU
For me the problem lies with Apple. The way to get a Mac to work with AptX codecs, is normally by using Bluetooth Explorer from Apple. But... it doesn't seem to work with Silicon Macs, and Apple hasn't updated the app. Love to see you do a post on getting the best Bluetooth audio from a Mac. I hate it that my Android phone, using LDAC, sounds so much better with a Bluetooth receiver than my new Mac!
Try the sennheiser BTD 600. You can get AptX quality audio on your Mac or iPad Pro. I hear it works with the iPhone 15 Pro Max also. But I haven’t tested this. Absolute game changer using focal Bathys or momentum 4 or TWM4 with Apple devices.
"Staying put" Thank you for the awesome perspective.
Great Video, John Darko. Thank you; I listened all the way to the end! Yes, it was technical. However, it is necessary to understand this subject for buying or upgrading purposes. Nobody else explains this material, for the most part, better than you. Thanks Again
Yeah it was nerdy but really liked it. Kinda confirmed all my suspicions. To get real lossless on wireless there are just too many factors in play (phone, IEM/headphones, software, bluetooth chips and the air in between). So wired for quality and wireless for ease of use it is 😊
Have always think the same, however maybe in the next ten years wireless could be for quality as well.
This is exactly the type of video I was hoping it would be! Thanks for keeping it nerdy
I’ve been using LDAC for ages and happy with it!
This reminds me of the good old days, when 1080p was 1080i and when megapixels in phones ruled.
Take into the equation the noise floor out on the street due to traffic and wind and it is all moot unless you turn up the sound level so much you'll likely cause long term hearing damage.
The ever long and troublesome quest for perfect sound. It’s a deep deep rabbit hole
Thanks John! Fun to follow along wading through the information.
Not many people might watch it .....but one of your most useful videos for those who do!!!
This Video really validates my experience of not being able to hear a difference in lossless vs normal music on my Sennheiser Momentum 4 (headphones, not TWS).
I have a Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 phone, so I guess I'll try connecting via a USB cable next.
Couldn't hear a difference with a wired USB connection either. 💀
Thanks JD, yep, it's going to be a battle to get things just right for a little while longer.
Wow lossless Bluetooth before lossless Spotify
😂😂😂
Spotify probably knows that most of their users don't even know about what lossless means, so they're not prioritizing it
You do know that Spotify isn’t the only music streaming service, right?
Great. That’s an improvement. With time they will perfect the technology and make it available across platforms. Keep up the good work Qualcomm. Thanks for the video John. Much appreciated!
Thanks for this vid. I liked not only the Nerd Factor, but your shirt as well.
Love this. Super nerdy but brilliant. Keep up the good work!
Great video Darko! Thank you for your quality of research on this topic.
Just give me a dang headphone jack. Augh
Great video John. Good advice. Will definitely wait before switching to one other three IEMs
We are all here. We are all watching this video. We love what you do. It is important to us.
Thx for digging so deep! I give it another year or two to upgrade untill more developements....
need that umbrella mate
Really good, I love these nerdier videos 👌👏
Just as you said “…this is so nerdy” I was thinking “this is fantastic!”
Thanks John. Love it.
I’m in iPhone user and I have a DAC and a cable, but it’s still wonderfully interesting stuff to know.
I am glad that I still got some wired headphones as well
Damn, I’m glad I listen to LP’s and CD’s….
Has there ever been a hobby as confusing as HiFi? Great video John, you did a superb job in explaining all of this. Thanks.
Great Video, i really like this kind of content
25 seconds in and I'm pausing just after I saw the Aphex logo on the handle. This video gets a thumbs up before I've even watched it. Fantastisch!
Bluetooth is such a nightmare. It's 3.5mm headphones all the way for me. Few phones have the jack, but the USB C dongles are tiny and good these days. Nothing extra to charge, hard to lose, and It Just Works.
So 16-bit, 44.1khz? Yay. Bluetooth has reached 1990 levels of sound quality.
Which is still more than enough today. Anything more is useless. And if you hear a difference between a CD and high-res format, that’s probably because it wasn’t the same source material to start with.
LMAO An achievement is still an achievement.
to be fair, bluetooth buds are a new thing. 10 years ago, if someone saw 2 white airpods in your ears, they'd think you took your apple earphones and cut the cords off of them.
I know your thing is to be sarcastic but, come on, if you went back to 1990 and showed someone your phone and told them you can listen to anything you want that’s ever been recorded and stream that to ear phones that were not connected to the device at CD quality, they would wet themselves.
80s, you mean
Neither what's CD quality on Tidal hifi is not CD quality 16bit 44khz.
For me the physical CD sounds better than streaming. I bought 60 CDs in the last two years and I don't regret.
Thanks… I will definitely go for wired now…
My head hurts.
As an iPhone user, I’m looking forward to the day when Apple releases its updated AAC, with lossless - which is something they’re apparently working on. I won’t need a degree in audio codecs to know what the hell is playing on my earbuds!
Getting In depth reviews of earbuds I have my eye on , very soon . Looking forward to it
Fantastic video John. Whilst I am a cable guy, you explained the subject matter very well and I followed it all. Thx
John, I have to admit, recognize and congratulate you for how well structured your explanation is about aptX Lossless and aptX Adaptive, it was like having seen the best science fiction movie, complex, disconcerting at times but wow, what an amount of information so well developed. Yes, I love technology, innovation and nerdy things, as always excellent content, greetings from Mexico! You should seriously consider writing a science fiction novel, you have a great ability to explain complex topics.
Lossless is build on top of Adaptive so if the signal etc is not good enough it drops to Adaptive, it really is like a chasing a Unicorn and the newer using XPAN (BT+WIFI) will probably be more stable.
They named a new codec after a Hasselblad?
Excellent explanation ofJohn thank you, as a Sennheiser user I can say there is a notable difference between the two codecs Aptx and Aptx Adaptive. I recently started using the BTD600 dongle so I can extract every ounce of sound from my Momentum 4 since it enables the full AptX suite and you can even FEEL the difference. Tried that dongle with the MTW3s and the diference was not that perceptible. So I can agree in you conclusion: hardware totally matters at the end.
If a codec is locked behind a app its not a codec. You should be able to enable it from the settings and Dev Settings, see 7:55.
I had the Sennheiser momentum 4 tws. Great sound.But had some issues regarding connectivity and sound quality with lossless. I sold them and ordered the meze alba which are wired iems. Has also ordered the fiio fh1. Which also are wired. I like the functionality of Bluetooth and noice cancelling. But wired iems are often more comfortable. And sounds better. Its something with that wired analog sound. And the fact that it just works. Always when i have sold my wired iems or headphones, i almost always regrets. But its great to have from both world . Bluetooth and wired. 😀
I find it funny that these manufacturers mention codecs so much in marketing to promote their earbuds, when the difference is as you said in the video is practically inaudible, because of the limits of sound quality you can get in ~300$ wireless earbuds. I use Sony's WH-1000 XM5 headphones (that should have a much better sound quality than all current wireless earbuds), with LDAC on my phone, and I can ever so slightly hear a difference between a CD-quality file and a 320kbps mp3 one if I'm in a quiet environment and raise the volume a lot.
This is true. The difference between lossy and lossless is only noticeable in an ideal environment and when you fully focus on the audio. This is why audiophiles haven't always offer the most reliable advice. They also ignore the advantages of EQ, focusing solely on the unaltered initial audio performance of their headphone. 🙄
Thinking about sound quality while discussing bluetooth is like discussing the quality of coffee in freeze-dried instant coffee.
lol happy that a video discuss that much details about things we care about
I stayed until the end. I’m here for it. I’ll sign the petition too. Show us the lossless. 😀
@DarkoAudio the Sennheiser momentum 4 true wireless control app allows you to select either Aptx Adaptive or AptX Lossless. If you after selecting Aptx Adaptive go into developer options you can select the bitrate to be either 48 or 96. In the Sennheiser control app select Aptx lossless and in developer options you only have 44.1 khz available. Funnily enough both have in developer options only 24 bit available and they are both called Aptx Adaptive. The Aptx Lossless should be 16 bit so the 24bit is a bit weird but if I get better lossless dynamic range who am I to complain.
Another thing is that you can only play Hi-res 96khz files bit-perfect if you select Aptx Adaptive. AptX Lossless does not play files higher than CD-quality, but it plays CD-quality streaming very well.
I'm just going to use wired headphones if I want the highest audio quality lol
I think Apple may have a trick up their sleeve that could trounce Bluetooth: ultra wideband (UWB). Unlike Bluetooth, UWB allows for much higher bandwidth, and that could make it possible for essentially Apple Lossless quality audio transmission. It's been available on the iPhone since the iPhone 11 generation.
Great video John.
Not in any way confusing.
I assume requirements are BT 5.3, Qualcomm Snapdragon, and the phone manufacturer to pay the appropriate licences.
Samsung only pay for APT-X. Never APT-X HD or above.
Because they have their own high quality codec...
Would be good to tell your audience about this...
They are a major player.
Can't install a better codec either..
yes, ANY transducer in the audio chain distorts / changes the sound, you are so right the 'lossless' thing comes second to the actual earbuds. Similarly LP cartridges and the whole vinyl thing distorts the signal, hey lots of people like it - and why not - Marmite comes to mind for some reason 😅
AptX Lossless is an extension of AptX Adaptive
But the problem is unlike LDAC, you have no control to enforce it running at lossless mode. They rely on the Qualcomm software solution for picking up the right mode which is unreliable in my own experience.
Using Pixels as test source is a complete failure as well as it can't offer Android SRC bypass like Sony Xperia with her own music app. It is locked to 48KHz. So you are lossless in the codec but subject to SRC loss which completely lose the point.
Very instructive for sure. PLUS the Windowlicker umbrella is a killler 🙂.
Silversun Pickups just chillin' in the corner...nice!
Discovering that my Pixel 5 has...none of these HD codecs at all? So many pieces of hardware that need to meet a certified spec, I wonder if bluetooth will ever be lossless for most people using earbuds. If Apple made a shift to a lossless bluetooth codec, I think we might actually the industry make a large shift towards lossless bluetooth as the standard.
Superb quality review as always.
I love your videos and the effort to decipher the madness that is hi-res/lossless streaming over Bluetooth! I own all three earbuds as well as the Zenphone 10. I found to consistently stream 44.1khz on the PerL Pro I had to disable Aptx Adaptive Hi-Res 24bit 96khz streaming in the Qualcomm settings in Bluetooth settings. But even then, when I enter developer settings it still shows the connection is 24bit not 16bit. So yea even more confusing but basically I agree, going from regular Aptx to Aptx lossless is the slightest improvement. The same difference using the Denon PerL pro on my iPhone 15 pro with AAC vs Aptx Lossless.
I am using the Final Audio ZE3000 which has the aptX adaptive codec. It sounds phenomenal! For the first time, I felt that it could do justice to all those lossless albums that I’ve purchased and saved on my phone. At first, I attributed all of this excellence to aptX adaptive; but gradually, when I played those same songs from devices that did not support aptX adaptive, I realized that the hardware of the ZE3000 was as much in play as the codec. So I agree with your conclusion here. And John, thanks for reminding me of that Yorke and Donwood book! 🙌
Interesting! What phone are you using , may I ask?
Here is my two cents, I had my first Walkman in 1979, I was 9. I've decimated my hearing to terrible levels, Tinnitus on blast. I think that the subtle difference in sound from a low cost earphone to a fancy one is so lost on me at this point. And I believe that I am not the only one here. The wheels of progress keep turning don't they.
Yes, a full blown Tinnitus sufferer here that loves music. I love playing it on my guitar and hearing it. I thought if I ever had a TH-cam channel I would call it the "Handicapped Audiophile." ;-)
Moral of the story use wired headphones.
while cycling, running or workouts its not comfy, wireless is very practical these days and im happy we are moving closer to cd quality, with bt 6 or future version we might get even better quality, beyond cd quality most people cant tell diference unless they are audiophiles or musicians. if they can make stable cd quality with bt, im absolutely fine with that over wires and mess
I have the Sony Xperia 1 V, it is, and sounds, amazing! Even the onboard speakers sound amazing, for listening to some music while talking a shower!
Thanks John, loved this informative video.
Your videos are great Darko. Casual 25 year old iPhone user here and hoping to start upgrading my audio gear as soon as I’m able to afford nicer gear haha. Super informative and thanks for sharing
B&W PX8 + GALAXY S22 ULTRA (Australia) WITH aptX + Apple Music = 16Bit/44.1kHz on Bluetooth :) Thanks for the video
My friend, I guess that's because your Samsung works over an Exynos CPU. Apparently Samsung uses Qualcomm chips in some regions and Exynos in sone others, the last being compatible with neither aptX HD nor Adaptive. However, the PX8 must be great headphones anyway.
Hi mate@@davidferrandez470 Yes I am in Australia which now uses Qualcomm...from google...Performance. The Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra uses a brand spanking new 8th generation Qualcomm Snapdragon processor. This would usually be inconsequential to us Australians, as we usually get Samsung's proprietary Exynos processors instead. Not anymore! Yes PX8 are a great set of cans, I also use Truthear Hexa, and you?
I’d like to add The Sennheiser BTD 600 Bluetooth Transmitter Adapter for Mac and PC and also work on iPad Pro . Adds AptX quality sound to your Device. Yes Apple Devices can use AptX quality Bluetooth with the BTD 600 Dongle. Absolutely a game changer. I sincerely hope Darko does a review on this. Using the sennheiser TWM4 with the MacBook with AptX quality audio or the iPad Pro sounds amazingly good. Hope someone reads this.
"Hello ladies" - that got a belly laugh from me. Touché, John
Hardware at this stage definitely matters more. I have IE600 on portable amp vs AAC momentum tw3 on iPhone….man….day and night in every aspect of the music. Yes I know it’s not fair comparison 😂 but still, I wish iPhone can support lossless Bluetooth
I tested weeks and month all Bluetooth codecs on the marked and can say u will not hear different between ladac and aac and no different between Alac and aac ( on a Apple device,aac sucks on android.)
I used Meze 109 Pro ,Philips Fidelio x2hr ,x3 ,Sennheiser 660s2 , fiio jt1, Sony xm4 ,xm5, Philips Fidelio L4 ,AirPods Pro 2 and many different dac/amps and tablets like iPad Pro 12,9 M2 ,Xiaomi tab and more .
These Bluetooth codecs are just marketing much more important is ur device and headphone .
Just read the article on the Zen Blue 3. Firstly, comparing the Bluetooth bit rates between different codecs and then to audio file formats is completely nonsensical. They are not comparable.
The bit rate specified for a file format is the speed at which it needs to be read from local storage to playback without skipping or dropping out. It has nothing to do with what happens with Bluetooth. It would be about the speed it would be read from memory after the Bluetooth transmission is over.
Bluetooth transmission rates are more comparable for their likely impact to energy usage and heat dissipation. They differ because their algorithms are different. Not because they’re telling you how much they’re throwing away under lossy conditions. The algorithms are usually proprietary and we don’t get to know exactly what they’re throwing away. So, comparing LDAC’s Bluetooth transmission rate with the read rate required for a FLAC file is like comparing apples and oranges. Even aptX Lossless shows this because it transmits at 1.2Mb and you need 1.4Mb for a 16-bit/44.1kHz AIFF from a CD.
That’s the other thing John missed from his list of reasons to rain on aptX Lossless’s parade… it also only works when fed 16-bit/44.1kHz lossless sources when using the Classic Bluetooth variant. It supports 16-bit/48kHz when using the LEA variant, which is don’t think anyone has implemented yet. It does not convert other sample sizes/rates for lossless transmission. So, 24-bit sources will only be able to avail of lossy aptX Adaptive. They claim this iteration of aptX Adaptive delivers 80% of the original audio data but I’m not sure if that covers all sample rates up to 96kHz or it just covers 24-bit/44.1kHz.
Also, the article doesn’t mention the Zen Blue 3 does support Bluetooth transmission. It’s not just a receiver. So, it could be useful for taking an analog source and transmitting it over aptX Lossless. That’s provided iFi’s ADC is supplying the analog audio as 16-bit/44.1kHz. Of course, you can use it with earbuds that support aptX Adaptive and aptX Lossless.
It might also have been worthwhile mentioning that the FiiO BT11 USB-C dongle is coming soon and it also uses the QCC5181 and is compatible with all smartphones including the iPhone. It promises LDAC. We’re not sure if they have licensed aptX Lossless on it. I’d be surprised if it doesn’t support aptX Adaptive.
The FLOOGOO FMA120 supports aptX Lossless and is available now but it’s a little less convenient as it’s a USB-A design. It’s intended for use with desktops/laptops but should work on anything supporting USB Audio 2.0.
Minor correction- LDAC in ABR mode will drop from 660 to 492 kbps before going to 330 if necessary (this rate can't be manually selected).
For me as long I see 2 notifications 1)connected to Bluetooth device that supports Qualcomm aptX adaptive
2) connected to Bluetooth device that supports Snapdragon sound
on my Sony Experia 5 mark V phone when my Denon Perl pro is connected,im more than elated !!
John - why do think Apple is not participating in this Bluetooth arms race ?
No other bluetooth headphones on the area when i look on the street they are everywhere
Brilliant and well explained! Thanks🎉
Kudos John with all those tongue twisters!
It's all gimmicks until someone builds an audiophile grade headphone [not earbud] that can make use of Aptx lossless. They don't even have one that can use LDAC yet, and LDAC has been around for years in ANC headphones.
Bluetooth is a mess. In terms of technology progression it's still in the traps. I know its useful but it drives me mad every day. Connecting and disconnecting whenever it feels like it to my headphones, car stereo and speaker.
What a shame that samsung blocks APTX lossless and aptx HD even though it is on the Qualcomm chip itself yhat is insidr it
Yes, infuriating, particularly on the S24 Ultra that has a Snapdragon chipset in it worldwide and could easily have access to the Snapdragon Sound suite. So many wireless headphones and earbuds use apt-x adaptive (and now lossless) instead of LDAC, and Samsung's stubborn refusal to go beyond vanilla apt-x support means that equipment from Dali, T&A, Denon, Focal, Bowers & Wilkins, Sennheiser, Bose, etc will not perform optimally with a Samsung flagship phone.
It’s probably because they use their own Exynos chipsets for non-American markets. And those chips won’t include aptX.
@@raptorbuddynope A53 have aptX adaptive
They saving it for their latest device
I hate this behaviour of samsung where they have blocked aptx/aptxhd/Lhdc (my s23) as they want us to buy their samsung tws to use SSC (samsung seamless) codec which is way way behind Qualcomm's aptx+.
I hardly ever use BT nevertheless I totally agree that the codec, sample and bit rate should be at least readily available information as it is for example in Roon, DACs etc
Using an iPhone, I can use any codec I want as long it is AAC 😂 begun looking at the new Sennheiser offering but there seem to be some issues according to other reviewers with transparency mode and microphone placement. When investing this I found raving reviews for Technics AZ80 so I am thinking of giving those a try, didn’t even knew Technics was in this space
I can now verify that Vivo X90 Pro+ can provide AptX Lossless to iDSD Diablo 2 via any player (not just Tidal). Diablo 2 at first shows green LED for Adaptive but after 23 seconds of playback switches LED to white. Previously X90 Pro+ was bugged in AptX Adaptive mode: sample rate was stuck at 48kHz preventing lossless. After I raised the issue they provided a fix and now sample rate is stuck at 44.1 kHz :)
Thank you for the detailed breakdown! I’m still rocking the Samsung Galaxy Buds+ (2020). I’ll probably wait until I upgrade.
I'm happy enough with LDAC on my phone due to use (moving around in noisy spaces).
What I want is support of LDAC/Aptx Lossless in desktop devices, so I can enjoy that in my house.
(Of course it's awesome it is getting better accross the board)
Hi John Darko. Tanks for a very informative video about apt lossless bluetooth, I think it was a bit nerdi but not to much., you do make great videos, keep going. on please. Thanks for yours big work and often with a bit of humør, that make it funny to watch and learn something from. Have a nice week Mr. John Darko. Vh Martin.
Aptex lossless, true wireless IEMs, Snapdragon sound certification, AAC, SBC… Thank goodness Android has become a potpourri of advanced audio codecs.
(Speechless)
👏👏👏
My thing is: why none of these manufacturers seem to have realized that this would be better achieved with a wired powered headphones that transmits *DATA* through the wire?
I mean smartphones can send lossless audio to DACs, right? And a part of those Bluetooth headphones is essentially a DAC that receives data through radio, isn’t it? So would this really be like reinventing the wheel?
That way, we would finally enjoy lossless audio with all the noise reduction technology that is now becoming standard for Bluetooth headphones… And we could also still enjoy the convenience of cable free audio every now and then, if such wired headphones were to also work with Bluetooth and a have detachable cable like… the one you use to charge your Bluetooth headphones… that might also be the one you use to both charge and transmits data to your phone…
And that, right there, is what annoys me the most about it… It’s like the solution been right under our noses all along but nobody seemed to care enough to actually push it and make this a reality.
I can’t be the only person who thought about this am I?
Apple has a possible solution using the U1/U2 ultra wideband (UWB) chip. UWB allows for a much higher bandwidth than Bluetooth 5.3/LDAC, and that could mean true wireless transmission of Apple Lossless audio.
Thanks great detailed update nothing to apologize about ....looking forward to more info on anything tech related ...looking forward to when codecs like snapdragon aptx lossless will be more main stream and verifiable with videos like these the manufacturers may be influenced to change their marketing strategy and be more transparent..
Shame on Apple for not implementing CD quality over AirPlay for their headphones. I´m sure they can do it, since the speakers can stream lossless.
The newest USB AirPods Pro have a proprietary lossless mode but it only works with the Vision Pro, presumably because they don’t have to worry about range and interference. It’s a safe bet they’d improve it and put it in future AirPods for normal use. Hopefully you won’t also need a new phone.
That umbrella neeeds brown slip on shoes white summer pantalon and white summer blouse. Aaaand a creepy smile
The is why I kept my Wired headphones and a phone with a headphone jack it JUST SOUNDS BETTER and it is cheaper too
Dude absolutely fantastic analysis