STOP Running Sandboxes, START Running SOAP OPERAS
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
- The key to running a good RPG sandbox is to use a soap opera structure. Don't build a railroad, build a web of intrigue! #dungeonanddragons #dnd5e #shadowdark
Check out our kickstarter for The Shucked Oyster here: shorturl.at/1g8eE - เกม
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Check out our kickstarter for The Shucked Oyster here: shorturl.at/1g8eE
This video is on point. I hear too many people say that sandboxes are just bland and empty worlds, with players wandering aimlessly, desperate to find something to do. When you structure a sandbox correctly, even the simplest interactions with situations may have a ripple effect that will gradually build up overtime. The world reacts to the effects of the PC's actions, causing more situations to pop up that change the world further, and then players are like, "Hey! I caused this to happen, but something else could've happened had I made a different choice. That's awesome!" Those are the moments I want to capture in RPGs.
Great video once again guys!
Thanks rex
I take inspiration from space operas. A subcategory of soap operas.
I was thinking the same thing when they started talking about it. In my current campaign, I'm calling it 'Sky Opera' for flavor-purposes.
Actually they have nothing to do with each other. One of them is a toddry emotional tale. Not anything like science fiction
Another great example of this is professional wrestling. It's pretty much a superhero LARP of a soap opera!
I always try to find ties between my PC's and if they're not obvious, I try to build ties to the land or factions via commonalities in the backstories and new info they give through RP. Great work gentlemen!
Thanks! Wrestling is also a great idea
I came here to say this, WWE is the greatest soapie ever made and no one knows it.
Thethans D&D manifesto:
Rule 2: Save your epic story for the book
Rule 3: Your players are not an audience
Rule 4: Let the players take the reins, and their characters will write the story.
still (slowly) working through twin peaks. I appreciate reference.
Is the 1st rule that schedules never align?
This content is so elegant wtf
I feel so smoothly informed
This is my favorite structure for a campaign. I first encountered it in the original Chicago by Night book for Vampire. As you say, part of the fun of this structure is that the GM has no idea how any of the dramas are going to play out. A benefit for the players is that as you are presenting players with a dramatic situation rather than a plot hook, they often get to decide what side to take, or to try and stay out of it. It means players feel more invested in what is happening. Even deciding not to get involved can have interesting consequences.
Yeah the vampire city books were *great* at doing this. I really like New Orleans for the Requiem line.
I totally agree that TV fits RPG structure better than anything else but I think it is bigger than just soap operas. Cyberpunk Red encourages taking a procedural structure, basically a new smaller web of intrigue every session. The codebook even gives you a guide to TV best structure for writing sessions. Great video.
you guys nailed it. Give the players a basic goal but allow their decisions and interactions with NPCs to propel the story forward.
Been running a "sandbox" for the last 6 months and have found myself falling into the overprepping traps that I originally intended to avoid. The soap opera analogy was a needed change in perspective that I'm going to start implementing NOW. Appreciate the content guys. Keep it up!
Love to see it! Thank you so much
Every now and then, when I'm feeling a bit randy, I like to run a sandroad like a Telenovela. Everyone gets railed in a box. It's beautiful, man.
Well said. As a DM we don't choose what the players enjoy, yet we can choose to embrace it.
3:42
Marky got with Sharon
Sharon got Cherese
She was sharing Sharon's outlook
On the topic of disease
Mikey had a facial scar
And Bobby was a racist
They were all in love with dyin'
They were doing it in Texas
Tommy played piano
Like a kid out in the rain
And then he lost his leg in Dallas
He was dancing with a train
They were all in love with dyin'
They were drinking from a fountain
That was pouring like an avalanche
Comin' down the mountain
This is the first video of yours I've seen. The kickstarter combines shadowdark and twin peaks = instant sale and new subscriber.
Thank you!
Does everything in life, in fact, come back to Twin Peaks? 🤔
Yes.
Man I love this channel. Its refreshing to see regular people talking about a game. It's no nonsense, it's relatable, it looks like people I'd love to sit down and shoot the breeze with. I'm a new dm, I don't have a group I've just run games for my kids and my niece and nephew, videos like these really help.
Thanks! Glad it's helping
Hi, I'm doing Chronicles of darkness (blue book) campaign inspired by Silent Hill and Twin Peaks. The players end up finding themselves in a small town in the interior of the USA, investigating disappearances and the supernatural, they also interact with a variety of strange and charismatic NPCs. It's a little difficult to keep track of everything, but I think it's worth it. I'm doing something more soap opera style precisely because I don't think a total sandbox would work, especially in horror and mystery games
You should definitely check out Welcome to Saint Cloud from @TheRedRoomChannel. Does this soap opera setting for a very twin peaks vibe in a modern horror setting.
The GM section in CofD (NWoD 2e) is excellent and what I immediately thought about when they said Twin Peaks - the section on the Story Kit (aka Your Exquisite Corpse) and the Missing Person with Spines are all amazing for a GM/ST.
This is really good, overlaps heavily with my uphill struggle against "Mystery" games, which seem dead-set on staying on "rails" at all costs.
The way you describe setting up the soap opera structure reminds me a lot of the town-building structure from Dogs in the Vineyard, where you just set up a few NPCs at cross-interest, some lurid secrets, and drop the players in with NO intended plot or desired outcome.
> I ahve been running my own VTM5 Chronicle in Miami. We have been having ablast and I kind stumbled upon both this method and video. I have been super ispired as a storyteller and the players are having fun. I didn't realize a Soap opera is just what I have been doing. Great video.
Great Video guys. Twin Peaks is an excellent example for this.... you can watch any show that uses Factions against each other to get a similar result. they "stumble" into the web of the factions. soooo many shows use this. Black Sails is a great example of this. characters are constantly switching sides and allegiances. Nassau would be your central location.
For sake of actually adding to the conversation and not just a jab: I think you guys are really onto something for running 'idealized' TTRPG stories/campaings/whatever-you-call-it, but this requires HEFTY player buy-in. How do you address players missing out on sessions where important developments are revealed? I think the reason ttrpg youtubers (🤢) push 'sandboxy' stuff is because it's super easy to plug into at just almost any moment. It's drop in/out friendly.
That is an advantage and I think that not ending the session with a cliffhanger every time is a good idea. Get back to town or somewhere that your characters can use for "downtime" so that if someone misses the next session there is a plausible reason for their character twr not being there.
The other part of this is that hobbies do require some work and effort and buy in. Some people will be turned off from that beginning. We also have a video coming on that soon.
I love that: “hobbies do require some work and effort and buy in.” It can be a challenge when you have a mixed group of committed gamers and casuals - oftentimes the hangers-ons to those devoted players, like significant others and teenage children who aren’t all into it but are there.
Perhaps this explains why all the cool kids who want to include everyone are running _Soapboxes_ these days.
Or standing on them...
This is such a wonderful idea that can add life to the setting even in small doses. Can definitely see how you wouldn’t want to overprepare this, but it inspired me to sprinkle in some drama in the next village I make. People love recurring characters, doesn’t hurt to have some of them toting their personal drama around Karameikos
Y'all have once again made a video with profoundly important information. Well done.
A Hunter the Vigil campaign I ran back in 2020 quickly turned from horror to soap opera. It turned out to be one of our best games.
I've never had the chance to read Vigil, but I've heard great things
This is exactly how I run my games, especially my present cyberpunk game. A Character driven world with interconnected and overlaping plots. I run it for several groups, and everyone loves it. And, it doesn't take a ton of work to actually prepare for.
this is what I've been trying to do for my miami vampire game, good to know I'm sorta on the right track
Absolutely on the right track.
Village Hommlet has factions built in which I used in my Lamentations of Elemental Evil campaign. It is amazing to me how few people actually use them to make Hommlet more interesting. Good video guys.
Also, The Shucked Oyster is badass!
Thank you! Updates for you soon on that as well :)
Often in the same literal vein as soap operas (al la Twin Peaks)... murder mysteries. I like to use Agatha Christie novels as the starting point for most of my webs-of-intrigue. They are surprisingly adaptive to fantasy-- diverse, yet simplistic, with a perfect network of relationships you don't have to think twice about.
The auto-caption for your module is _gold:_ The Shockdeuster.
Reads like a German Western.
this is called emergent storytelling btw
great stuff! and great reference, twin peaks and your name is the black lodge.
the reason this soap opera emergence works better than a sandbox does on its own is because a sandbox requires a lot more player buy in. yes your characters can be more of a blank slate but that means the players themselves have to do more rp, acting, and thinking in order to fill the blanks
you also do not run as much risk of going too far off the rails, even a linear story should be emergent because you can always circle around to the main plot just like in twin peaks. in tp the investigation literally goes from a murder investigation to a supernatural other world, to a world power level god being inventing new humans and dopplegangers, all while always circling back to one thing : laura palmer. even in the return where dale becomes 4 distinct copies of himself, the real dale literally goes back in time to find laura but oops! that doesnt resolve the mystery either, and hence it always goes back to the mystery of laura.
I think many people along the way forgot that a sandbox isn't only about rolling on the tables, but is a series of adventures in a setting that a GM decided to outline for his or her friends at the table. There IS a narrative and tables CAN be used to brainstorm. By and large, the only things connecting my series of adventures together are my PCs and my world I've made. How the PCs relate (or the lack thereof) to everything going on is really where the story lies. They don't give a shit about the lore of a leader of Gnolls, but they give a shit about the halfling merchant he killed and how to enact their revenge. What was once an NPC used to grade gems became an invaluable ally, and that bastard killing him put his clan on the players' "Chucklefucks About To Find Out" list. I like a more "episodic" approach to gaming.
I was in the Sandbox, my cats kept trying to bury me! 😂
You guys really do make insightful and deep dives into RPGs. Thank You
Thanks for watching!
Love it! When I'm at my best as a DM I'm ruminating on these types of social interactions in my Birthright campaign. It leads to incredible depth.
Birthright sounds like it would be a perfect fit for acks
@blacklodgegames I asked Alex when I interviewed him about it and I believe he said it was definitely part of his inspiration. Can't wait to get it!
Critical Role fans will see the thumbnail, and I think, "Finally! My high school theater experience will pay off!"
Their crappy acting did not in fact pay off
Having been in theater, I don't think it was their acting chops that is going to pay off for them XD
How did the fact that they use their so-called crapping acting to form a multi-million dollar company not pay off?
And by the way they are voice actors. Your voice acting paid off in bigger ways than you and I will ever see
0:58 never thought that Itatí Cantoral would make a crossover in my hobby hahahahaha
been really struggling with my first oneshot for vampire the masquerade to introduce some new players to the game's themes, and i feel like this came just in time to help me unglue some stuff i was stuck on. i have been enjoying y'alls content and i look forward to more stuff like this
This is how I run my Sharn based campaigns. Whats more, some threads of the web can lead to whole new webs, and carry the campaign into entirely new directions and stories that can be completely unrelated to the original web. The party has to make decisions on which they delve into, or do they try to juggle it all. I have seen groups unite estranged factions, pit unrelated groups against each other, and so much more.
Great video! An excellent reminder that goals and relationships drive the game.
Sounds cool, especially if you have proactive players. Of course the setup is really important in this sort of campaign so you can tie your PCs to at least some factions from the beginning. Personally, I have thought that this is what a sandbox means. Players have a lot of agency to make choices and also have to bear the burden of those choices. Good video.
I wasn't aware that I do already Soap Opera in my campaign...
Great post guys. 🍻
Thanks!
The Loki's lair include is a pretty deep cut.
I accidentally did this in my Stars Without Number campaign. My last session, after 2.5 years, ended yesterday. Most of the last half of the games were focused on a kidnapping plot on a massive space station. The players then spent that time dealing with the plot. It felt a lot like a soap opera withcall of the interconnected relationships. There were a few other hooks they bit on over time but their main focus was on saving the kidnapped people and taking apart the people involved over time. The plot was complicated with many people involved so it was fun to watch them puruse all of the loose ends. The hardest game session to run is an epilogue at the end of a campaign. Bringing things to a satisfying conclusion in a sandbox is not easy.
Very interesting. I have been using something very close to this without having a name for it. One of my campains is set on a tropical island. There are many points of interest and mystery (PCs are strangers and have an incomplete map). There are 5 human tribes working more or less together (political inteigue; love, hate, espionage, betrayal), and a few monster tribe with there own agenda.
PCs make ripples (like you said) almost every time they interact with the NPCs.
When they kill monsters, they affect the balence of power.
Doing it right!
And "shucked oyster", fucking yes guys, yes, yes, yes, I thought it was going to be a much longer wait before that project got on the road, it's going to be good
Can't wait to get it to everyone
Love this, this sounds exactly like the kind of thing I want to run and play in - thanks guys for this video!
You are welcome!
This is what burning wheel just does. Its awesome.
Reminds me of some G+ era blogger that suggested we run mysteries as a square dungeon that can be accessed from either side. In the middle of the room you have the answer to the mystery, all other adjacent squares from the center to the border of the square are just consequences or epiphenomenon of the central mystery (and work as great red herrings.)
This stresses both player agency AND a compelling mystery.
One good counter argument I've heard from a good friend is that he had the impression that total player agency is almost relavitistic and even masonic, and he wants games where the party is united against a truly evil dark lord or villain, he wants good to triumph, and to call to mind the hand of God sustaining and allowing all things towards a greater end. I would like to think that this idea isn't antithetical to å sandbox - or let's say a soap opera - style. I think in every great heroic story like LOTR you still constantly have non-heroic people plotting and scheming and there are a multitude of ways you can deal with them or ignore them or pursue other endeavors if you so choose, and I feel like the looming threat of the consequences of ignoring that can be equally dramatically powerful. Thoughts?
Sounds like your friend is describing, a goal.
I agree. I think a central goal/priority (uniformed for the PCs) gives/takes value to all other goals. A strict soap opera sounds like it could easily dissolve into a mess, but between more boring moments, I can see the utility in enhancing the game experience with cascading drama.
Antagonists having goals and pursuing them in the background agains the players is great. If you have characters that want to fight those villains, then this works great. The problem arises when the GM attempts to *force* the characters to care about a heroic good vs evil story. You are correct that having antagonists with goals is not opposed to the structure we describe here
>soap operas
Shoot, this can work. My context is pro wrestling which might as well be soap operas.
Another great way of looking at it
Shucked Oyster sounds great, will be perfect to plug into my world setting.
It's a lot of fun, can't wait to get it out to everyone
I don’t really play D&D much anymore, but this is pretty spot on and if you want an example of this format with just a little bit of that Romantic adventure throughline in a “playable” capacity, Kingdom Hearts was basically my first soap opera.
Your comment about the high school drama hits hard. It strikes me as true and gives me strong ngmi vibes at the same time. Another great video guys.
Yeeeees. The shucked oyster!! xD
I'm going to put it in my sandbox!
Starting from montages of other content creators. This is going to be awesome.
My next character is my first characters evil twin. You can tell because he has the better moustache.
One of the RPGs that does the soap opera as you described is the Smallville RPG. It has a very intricate character creation process that is one part character creation and one part setting creation at the same time with its Pathways system.
Pathways, as written, is a relationship map creation process where during every stage of character creation where players pick the next stage of their Life path they also write and add things to the relationship map. One stage you will add an important NPC, then a Location, and everything is interconnected and linked together in a variety of ways and how things relate to each other.
This ends up creating an actual Setting where every character is connected to and drawn into the world but you could also just go through the stages of the map drawing process as a pure setting and relationship map creation process and skip the actual game.
The one time I played it we created our own Babylon 5 and DS9 mash up and it was a lot of fun.
A lot of people disregarded the Smallville RPG but it really has one of the best setting generation processes encoded into a RPG and it does soap opera gaming better than almost every other RPG I can think of because everything in its design is focused on it.
Never heard of smallville, will have to check it out.
I'm not agree that this is less work, as I did a campaign like that in the past, which was a massive failure at the end (no sastisfying ending, bad pacing). The fact is soap operas are (in the linear media that is tv shows) working so well because of the multiple possible views, at any time, even out of characters, foreshadowing, etc. You can't do that the same way in an rpg. At the end there is too much in the shadows for the player to understand, and guess what without knowledge, there is no agency for players, they become lost and bored. Watching a saop is great, because as the watcher you have an entire puzzle, with multiple characters at any time to understand. As a rpg player you can't access this level of knowledge, so it drives players to frustration.
Some ideas are goods, this one I would love that it had been. But for having done this stuff exactly with twin peaks in my mind in my unkwno armies campaign, I can tell you can lost your players and you as a gm, as the season of twin peaks lost themselves after the first.
The players want clear plots, with challeng and satisfying endings. They don't care what is behind the scene and our gm screen. Episodic show with true endings each time is all we have to take from tv shows. Not the very intricated thing as we can find in twinpeaks, which is the strength on tv shows AT TV only.
There is not so much difference between sandbox and that format at the end. The only one is gm enjoy is own theater of the mind a lot more than in sandbox. Frustration for the players can occurs the very same level. As far I'm not a fan of pure sandbox, I can tell soap opera structure is not better. Episodic structure like star trek IS the real deal, it works. One session, one plot, one ending et voilà !
Makes me think of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
Some players don't want to connect with other players. Most want to connect their swords to dragons
So, my TTRPGs aren't going to be a telenovela? That's disappointing.
Been playing VtM.... and yeah, our soap opera is like that telenovela. Been good.
Great content, fellas. To the point and meaningful.
i think you are right, bur do not forget that medieval fantasy is about exploration, traveling and discovering wonders
Yes, not incompatible
I cant belive i finally found people that think the same as i do, for many years i struggled as a Dm trying to find a group that would understand what an RPG CAN be.
I finally found a group that take the world and the characters they play seriously and im finally enjoing the game, its a shame i had to go through several rough patches, and now I hate D&D for what it lends itself to be.
Cause and effect is amazing.
Npcs with agendas outside of the players is great aswell.
Having world events that dont involve the players but its effects do is amazing aswell.
that's awesome.
NO! I have been running “Days of Our Lives” for forty years! 😝
Absolutely fire boys. You did it again! We're so back.
No brakes!
Truly with every video here I love abstract distant gamist RPGs more, and my disdain for immersion and psychological roleplaying just skyrocket through the roof.
Wow! Great game master advice! I’m saving this video.
This was good timing. I was thinking of starting a sandbox campaign using the Shadowdark rules, and I really like this approach. Signed up for kickstarter too.
Awesome! More to come on that soon!
Subscribed and Liked! It's good to finally hear some rpg voices talking about the dichotomy of Railroad vs. Sandbox. I think you are spot on, and I commend you for an amazing video! Thanks! And I will continue to watch!
Great discussion!
It explains why Vampire was/is so successfull . It's a game that enforces both through rules and lore a web of relationships in a limited space (ie a city) and then drops the PG into it, and there's no preconceived "winning state" like slaying the dragon or get the big loot or stop the ancient old ones ecc.. every player/character has is own interests in the context of said web of relationship (this has the drawback of making it harder to tie the party together and keep it together, though).
Exactly!
Good video, guys. I came in sceptical, but you mostly won me over.
I think I'll do a VR to that tonight.
Stop reading after "I came"
@@blacklodgegames Hahaha!
So cool. Never thought of that.
Well someone had to say it , glad you guys put it in a way that's easily and cleverly understandable, I have a hard time trying to explain certain aspects of what Im attempting to do/present when I'm running games when asked about it from people outside the immediate game group.....I can send them a link to this video for part of that explanation , red Frasier and young Steve crushed it again
Awesome!
It’s kind of how I structure games now. I’m currently running a Transformers/GI Joe/Power Rangers campaign, and all I really have down before players affect things is the monster hunting organization the players work for (an easy way to get the three hero types to join forces), the various villainous factions they will encounter, and the overall big threat (another dimension invading the one of the players). I start easing them into it by using the modules/adventures in the books while slowly introducing elements and characters so once they are done with the pre-written modules it will be their actions that will move the story. What side of the Cybertronian Vs Machine Empire conflict will the players focus on? Will they even notice COBRA working in the shadows? How will they react when other heroic characters oppose them?
I've never GM'ed anything and only played a few shitty DnD sessions of a bad dungeoncrawler. But you guys inspired me to create my own campaign. This is very helpful advice guys.
I'm making a maffia setting, so your VtM video was helpful in that. My prep so far has been mostly about creating the factions and populating them with some NPCs. I'm trying to give all these NPCs a goal that's not 100% related to their rank in the organization.
Making sure all these NPCs are linked in one way or another is a great tip, I'll be thinking about that. I do have to try to make links between the factions, and not have them perfectly compartmentalized.
To me it feels like this way of creating your world it's an up front investment for the GM, but as soon as it starts you just know how the world works and can kinda sit back. Is this correct?
It is a little bit more of an investment upfront, but I would start small. You *don't* need to have everything figured out before you get the game to the table. And don't be afraid to let some NPC you made up on the fly become a major part of the game. Players latch on to weird things and some of the most memorable characters were not people I had prepped before hand!
Great video. Really good advice. Thanks.
Glad you liked it
I agree i all of what you say except of using the words of "Soap Opera", as they are a term used n linear formats such as tv series. I prefer other words that are not related to other mediums, as they can't grasp the full potential of RPGs and can mislead people.
But yeah, when you explain it, you nailed it.
This is great advice!
Now what interests me most: How would you organize the information as a GM (f.e. in OneNote) ? How would you keep a grasp on who knows what, who affected what etc. I‘m a very schematic DM and love the idea of such a dynamic situation but struggle with neatly organizing the information to run it effectively at the table.
Factions create Soap Opera!
Remember, all your factions have factions.
I wouldn't say they are fractal factions. You may, if you wish.
In Trevor's defense he doesn't run sandboxes. His show is perfect.
Agreed, and we weren't criticizing the people at the beginning.
I honestly think MORE videos explaining and exemplifying these concepts are necessary, so any monkey like me understands it and doesnt go out there talking bullshit!
I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.
That's basically how I prep my games lol
Doing it right, love to see it!
I greatly dislike Twin Peaks, Soap Operas, and over acted rpg sessions that feel more like a drama than a game.
But the premise of this video and building a web of relationships is spot on. Fuck guys you got me.
Many such cases! Glad you enjoyed it
Not liking Twin Peaks is kindof an L take ngl
I support this message.
So do I!
They call him Young Steve Buscemi, but I know that’s Australian comedian Sam Campbell.
In our longest-running game, my character and her boyfriend's character literally have a text channel for their side conversation RP called "telenovelas-de-adrien-y-dova". The channel description leans into this even further:
"Cielo y Terra - tales of the denizens of earth is an exciting new telenovela documenting the burgeoning relationship between an Aasimar and a Tiefling. Will they be able to overcome their own tragic and painful paths to find love, or will the dangers that threaten them snuff out their passion before it begins?"
XD
Lol cardboard table? Love the content guys.
Haha no, the table is very reflective and reflects the green screen to much so we cover it
Check the link in the description for our upcoming Kickstarter!
This concept is not mutually exclusive with sandbox play. It's just extra descriptors for NPCs.
All correct.
It's easy to "say" this (and I totally follow and get this due to my experience in creating a game where the players hold their own agency)...
What needs to be done is instructional on what the GM does and how the Players play (in session) and that needs to be exampled visually for the 99% people to understand.
People will watch this, get the idea of what background GM's can conjure up... but now the viewers must understand specific rules they must follow to have the GM stay in their domain without intruding on the character agency... otherwise it won't work because you will have players going out of character talking about the latest video game or movie they saw, pulling the other players out of character. GM's and Players need specific "do's and don'ts".
A, "María la del Barrio" dandome lecciones de TTRPG. No tiene precio #Itaticantoralbestvillianever
"Lucita la del barrio" He was Ventrue boy, she was a LaSombra girl.
"Pasión de Toreadores". En Brasilero por supuesto.
"Los Ventrue también lloran"
"Yo soy Imalia, la fea"
"Rebelde Way" School for teenage Brujah
This is good for vampire
Very much so.
I need to watch some Twin Peaks!
Remember to watch it in the proper order:
1. Season 1 & 2
2. Fire Walk With Me
3. Wait 25 years
4. Season 3: The Return
I like your videos. Sandboxes traditionally talk a lot about players interacting with factions. The difference between traditional sandbox and a soapbox sounds like soapbox is more about interacting with NPCs. It is not that factions don’t exist. It just emphasizes that the players are interacting directly with a member of a faction.
I signed up for notifications of you kickstarter.
Thank you!
The wrestling in professional wrestling is the least important part of the product for the same reason. It's soap opera for dudes, and when it's done right it's amazing.