I guess you use 2618 aluminum, but what about the elliptical shape and piston profile? Are you just ok with it not beeing round when its hot and it will wear linears and pistons fast ? Piston shape in cold state is very very important.
Are you going to coat the surface of the pistons sidewalls, for less friction inside the cylinder? There’s a black coating which works suuuper crazy good for lowering friction and keeping the temps cool while having the piston slide up and down the cylinder more easily resulting in less performanceLoss and reaching higher rpm faster as well as loosing rpm faster when no gas is pressed.
Wow, the quality of content on this channel is just so amazing. Love the spirit. When TH-cam started we had DIYers tuning their cars and a few building kitcars. Today, people building the entire thing from scratch. What a journey!
@Muckin 4on You know what prototype means? Its just giving a try of the gcode in the machine, so he doesnt waste a expensive material. And He already told the load that should handle the design. That means he consider the yield strenght and others mech properties of the material in the calculus of the design with a safety factor. with that you can tell if viable to use the material or not
I have a couple of suggestions for you. 1.) use a double spiral lock piston pin retainer (wire lock isn’t sufficient for that rpm) 2.) if you’re utilizing a dry sump system you can eliminate the oil control rings all together and use a Napier 2nd ring 3.) an accumulation groove between the top and 2nd ring wouldn’t be a bad idea 4.) a solid oil return design would be well worth the time in the design process 5.) checking the surface finish would be ideal and can be compensated with a coating 6.) if the design allows for a wider “rail” (for a lack of a better term) on the top of the pistons where it is at its thinnest that would be awesome. While the piston may sustain the pressure, it may not sustain the heat and can melt that edge
I know I'm late, just seeing this but WPC is a great surface treatment for parts, for pistons you have to be selective on where you treat them with this, but it is a great process.
I started watching your channel in 2018 because of your educational engineering videos. I'm glad you're getting back into it! Thanks for adding to the underserved MotorSport Mechanical Engineering market on TH-cam. If you can, please keep posting more nerdy engineering videos.
There's a lot of sharp concave corners in that design unlike the f1 or any other piston. Concave edges are stress concentrations and sources of fatigue cracks and should always be filleted for load bearing features
@@xfmotorsports About sharp edges, i've noticed that the skirt's side edge isn't vertical on F1 piston and mercedes has put a chamfer like cutout on it. The skirt itself also seems to have some kind of relief (or is it just a wear pattern?)
Amazing! I'm in a project for a class in my university in which we choose a piston to design the forging manufacture process and it is very similar to what you guys are doing!
Great. Thumbs up. Ever thought of making a sleeve valve engine with your knowledge about thermal expansion? I could provide the CAD. One thing though, if u have a piston which can bear 250 bar, the open deck cylinder block will certainly be the limiting factor here, not the pistons.
@@jareknowak8712 i didnt mean to write the, its late sry. What i mean was cam like in computer aided manufacturing (the stuff that happens between cad and gcode)
@@jareknowak8712 The original machines for making oval pistons did use a cam: It moved a grinding wheel in and out slightly as the piston was rotated on the machine, which produced the correct oval shape. Thus they were called 'cam ground' pistons. Nowadays you can do the same thing with the CNC software.
@@nerd1000ify grinding wheels???? this model piston doesn't have to be oval. The parts to make it oval (for less friction) are already missing. And that's good!!
I'm very impressed! Just a quick note, I'd make the sharp edges of the piston rounded. Round shapes will reduce stress concentrations, especially if the part is CNC'd instead of forged.
Hi XF and Marhew. Thank you for your vid. Your design requires substantial skirt ovality because the boss webs expand lengthwise with combustion heat. If you run these at a similar clearance to original pistons, they will sieize in 4 places. In contrast, a very basic design such as a 2 stroke, can get away with almost no ovality. With your equipment and expertise, a precision oval turning attachment that you could make yourselves is absolutely do-able. Reply to this comment if you want some pictures of my version for a cnc mill. Piston Pete UK.
The only issue with that is that it reduced structural rigidity. So if you are doing rebuilds or replacements every 2 or three races like a pro team then maybe, but for the needed durability of low cost club racing, I would avoid it.
@@commentaryking5165 Maybe they can add thin pipe or use not pure aluminum to strengthen the piston, to make some kind of complicated drilling, I think pure aluminum is is bad for the load that they are trying to do, also the block itself is aluminum. Im watching other channel where they restore engines and modern engines are aluminum - trash that doesn't hold shape. Cast iron blocks come with 4 - 5 times more milage than aluminum. Skirts on modern pistons, piston rings, oil drain holes on piston oil rings, everything is done towards fuel efficiency and higher hp with less engineering.
@@pfoxhound I agree that pure aluminum is not the best choice, although I believe he said it was chosen just for gcode. So the final product will be made out of something else. There is always a trade off of some kind, that's for sure.
@@pfoxhound not true. Aluminum just needs a coating since otherwise it will deform too easily. Disadvantage of surfave hardening is that it will change shape slightly and you cant really do anything afterwards except grinding a couple thousands off, so extreme precision is required which this cnc cant do, esp not with the temperature changes. Im really sorry and maybe they have it conpletely planned out but i predict failiure sooner than later. Milled stock is one of the weakest form of metal
@@pfoxhound There might be a problem with that maybe? I’m not very knowledgeable about engines but I do know people remove piston oil squirters on the 2JZ because hot pistons + cooled oil caused blown engines. Perhaps the same logic might be applied here?
What material is the billet. I would suggest for a production run, get the shape you need, slightly under size the wrist pin holes, solution heat treat and age to the final temper, then final machine and ream the wrist pin hole. Then look into surface coatings such as sulfuric acid anodize or chem film.
Design has several areas with sharp corners which will result in stress concentrations where fatigue cracks will form. For something like this fatigue is critical, need to analyze it subject to the acceleration loading it will see at TDC, BDC at max rpm and see what happens. Ball end mill can get you the required fillets in the pockets. Otherwise, exciting project. Maybe you can make me some custom pistons!
Forged w/finished machining will be stronger (f1 piston) and less prone to stress cracks due to proper grain flow in the metal lattice Billet machined wont have proper grain flow and will be more prone to fatigue and stress cracking across grain boundaries. This isn’t simulated in the FEA you’ve run. Good nugget of info to tell your viewers.
Yeah i thought the same. Im really worried that it wont work. Its also need really good cooling and oiling otherwise the block will enjoy a nice bite out of it
They're machined from forged 2618. The material about 30% stronger than the regular 4032 forged pistons. It just has a 20% higher expansion rate which is why road cars don't use them
@@xfmotorsports are you annealing the final product? that will improve the grain flow substantially If you ever need anything 3D scanning, I run a small engineering business in the UK (insta @Laminar.solutions) and would be happy to use our laser scanners to give you hand on any projects. Love your content, keep it up!
@Jessica Suzumiya mate, he never assumed him to be an idiot, rather merely made a genuine suggestion. Then he got an fairly inoffensive reply. If you want drama, go watch some bloggers. This is how we tend to communicate in STEM... straight to the point.
This is amazing you have come so far buddy it's awesome, I wish I had half the knowledge you do. Throwing this out there would you ever consider making pistons for any other mercedes engines like the M111.975? We are having so much trouble to find affordable solutions to the brittle mercedes pistons well Nural pistons. We have found like the M104 the engine is tough but the pistons let it down and have limited options in the UK for machining. I know it's a bit off the wall especially considering you specialise in the V8s
The material you're using will determine expansion taper, and the top of the piston is called the crown...💯 But congratulations on pushing the boundaries, you've got a new subscriber
Are you going to have the pistons coated with Teflon or Ceramic? I really enjoy watching your progress, from building a Race car from scratch, to making pistons In your new shop. Thanks for taking us along. 😊👍
i'm wondering about heat treating those pistons. is that part of the plan? i was also wondering about the density of your aluminum vs. what you used for your simulations. are you planning on refining the FEA with updated material properties?
What material did you use to make the piston and what is your clearance between the piston and bore. Just curious about thermal expansion and how you calculated for it.
Ah the good old days! Get your 850 cc Mini block. Bore it out to 1150 cc (carefully, to avoid the water ways). De-stroke it back to 850 cc. Spin it up to 11,000 rpm and away you go! Fun days!
Looks like you need to try out trochoidal high speed milling to speed up your roughing process. But very impressed in how you used your mill as a lathe to finish the OD of the pistons.
It looks like there was some technology sharing when Daimler-Benz owned Chrysler. the combustion chamber on those heads is basically a 3-valve version of gen 3 Hemi right down to the dual spark plugs. granted the Benz head is a OHC and the Hemi is a push rod engine. but it is amazing how similar the intake and exhaust runners are to a gen 3 hemi as well. amazing video.
Making pistons lighter is really important for high revving engine, but even more important is to reduce stroke to achieve lower speed/inertia of the piston. The valves and in particular the valve spring are the other thing you should think about if you would want 11k+ rpms. I am really curious how this will perform. Congratulations on this amazing project !
Are there any books you would recommend on internal combustion engines? I would really like to learn more about clearances, engine designs etc. And I'm a bit puzzled on where to start.
Kudos to you - you are definitely pushing way through the boundaries of small company tuning development and I admire this very much. I am very curious, you have not mentioned the metallurgy of your pistons - can you tell us which alloy you are using, what, if any, final treatment process you intend to apply and whether you are going to utilise any of the many coating treatments available?
First of all, I take my hat off to you for taking on such an ambitious project! And after watching this video I can see that you put a lot of thought into the design. The problem is, you don't know, what you don't know... :-) Here are a few things that I believe you should think about. 1. Piston Design. Pistons are not simply round and tapered... They are oval through the pin bore axis to account for the greater mass of the pin bore towers, which WILL expand more than the thrust and anti-thrust faces of the piston. Therefore, simply turning the piston round (and the ring grooves too) isn't wise. The "Cold" design of the piston will determine the "Hot" shape of the piston. The goal being that at full operating temperature the piston is round and straight. Therefore, by turning the piston with a round profile when cold, will mean that the piston will be oval at operating temperature. Pistons made by piston manufacturers for OEM Street (in the case of your sample piston is made by KS or Kolbenschmidt) are turned by a "cam lathe" which gives the oval horizontal profile, at the same time it gives the vertical profile a "Barrel Shape". The shape is highly complex and varies by the mass and thickness of the material at any given point. The Ferrari F1 piston you showed (manufactured by MAHLE I believe in 2001) is machined from a forged blank with the finished machining removing as little of the surface as possible. And it's only designed to run a few hours, maybe 250 hours, not 250,000 miles... So a comparison is unwise, unless you plan on rebuilding the engine after a very few hours. And that 2001 F1 piston is what I would consider "Old School" these days, as design has moved on in 20 years :-))) You may want to consider oil return holes in the back of the oil ring groove. Because the pumping pressures in that ring groove will be considerably higher than in a stock street engine. Another consideration is a gas relief or accumulator groove between the top and second ring, allowing for combustion gas which escapes the top ring, an area to expand into, rather than trying to force the second ring back into the second ring groove. It would be wise to chamfer all the sharp edges you have on the piston skirt tail and other areas. Especially as "piston slap" will be a feature of the piston you have made, simply due to the cold or ambient temperature tolerances you will have to run due to the alloy and lack of piston ovality. And as a precautionary feature, you might consider a skirt coating, such as Zylan or one of the other skirt coating materials. This could assist at cooler temperatures during startup. Given that you didn't create a barrel/ovality profile, I don't imagine you considered pin bore ovality or pin bore profile either. Under high load a wrist pin distorts and tries to ovalize, thus putting extreme pressure on the oil film between the pin and pin bore. This can be alleviated by giving the pin bore some ovality, or removing some material at these stress point to allow the pin to ovalize. This can be especially important in the "sheer plane" between the piston pin boss and the connecting rod bore. I would usually design in a slight taper to give the pin bore boss a "flair" or shape similar to a velocity stack. This reduces the stress on the pin in this crucial area. What are you making the wrist pins out of? Tool Steel? Or are you buying pins? If you are making them, you can consider tapering the inside wall from the outside ends of the pins, getting larger as they approach the highest load area in the center. This will remove a lot of weight from the pin, and thus the piston assembly. 2. Material Choice. While 2618 is a good choice sometimes 4032 is chosen. 2618 (Originally developed by Rolls Royce for the Merlin engines during World War 2) has a higher coefficient of expansion than 4032, but due to its ductility is often chosen as it can "take more abuse" (in many way, abuse is what we try to avoid when designing a piston :-) However, it requires much more cold clearance than the KS CAST Hypereutectic piston you are using as a base, therefore you will have to take this into consideration when you calculate your cold clearances. 4032 is formulated with a much higher silicon content (silicon is added to reduce the expansion of the alloy) and can be as high as 12.2% (or a little higher) which is right on the border of Hypereutectic alloys. This affords the piston a greatly reduced Coefficient of Expansion, and increases the wear characteristics making the piston more durable, but makes the piston less tolerant of detonation. In general, I recommend 2618 for race use, and 4032 for street, even high performance street. However, depending on the actual use of the vehicle that can change too. 2618 is "Stronger" having a higher tensile, yield, and fatigue strength than 4032, and it melts at a slightly higher temperature. All of which is why it was chosen for the Spitfire and Mustang fighter aircraft. But, it does mean that the engines must be warmed up carefully, and piston profiles must be carefully calculated as 2618 will expand up to 15% more than 4032, and even more than a Hypereutectic alloy. So, basing your tolerances on the KS piston is very unwise. 3. Manufacturing Method. It's also important to note that 2618 and 4032 are really designed as alloys for forging, and don't reach their full potential unless they are forged "near net" (in other words, forging the pistons shapes (mostly under the crown) into the alloy at, or very near, their finished shapes. In fact, the reason 4032's silicon content is limited to around 12% is that once an alloy reaches much higher than this it becomes VERY difficult to forge by conventional (heat and beat) methods; and Isothermal Forging is required, a complex method. This "compaction" of the crystalline alloy structure imparts additional strength and toughness. Imagine if you will, a plank of wood (the billet material) and plywood (the forged material) and you will understand what I mean. So, while 2618 is a good choice, you will have to really be careful with your tolerances when the engine is cold. Also, machining directly into billet without subsequent heat treatment will cause other issues. 4. Protective Finishes and Coatings. In an engine which reaches higher RPM and thermal loads it is wise to consider Hard Anodizing of the first ring groove and the pin bores. This harder surface prevents galling and localized micro welding. You might also consider a Diamond Like Coating (DLC) of the wrist pin. 5. Other considerations... Will you be rebalancing the crankshaft? I would have thought this is necessary due to the large change in the reciprocating mass. And reducing the crank weight will also aid you in your goal of 11,000 rpm. What ring pack will you use, and what will be the thickness of the rings? In this application I wouldn't go any thinner than 1 mm. Will you profile the underside of the piston crown to remove excess weight? Matching the under crown to the crown will help get the weight down. And likewise will you remove material from the pin boss between the under crown and pin bore? Just a thought for the future... 3D Printed Pistons... You can really remove some weight when you can easily leave voids where it would be really tough to machine it away... It's possible to utilize Diesel piston tech, such as oil cooling galleries in a gas engine, which can really help thermal dissipation. This is the future of piston manufacturing, for limited production anyway. Hope some of this helps. I really hope your design survives, but from what I can see it certainly isn't optimized, and could fail if tolerances aren't opened up. Best of luck!
Not just me then Brian. How these fellas have got the brass neck to stand about grinning thinking they can better the vast experience of companies like AMG and more so the Very best Ferrari astounds me, but equaly looking at the comments i'm surprised so many commenters think it's easy to do,but as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.Think in reality it will just stay in the fridge. I am getting on a bit now but I did my time with AE, Hepworth and Grandage,Wellworthy etc.You? Ps. I was just going to tell these blokes there is more to the subject than you think/know. But your comment says it all. Shiney though, and of course they said billet alot🙄
@@velobob4299 Hello Bob. Well, I’ve been building racing engines for over 35 years. Plus I ran MAHLE’s aftermarket division in the US for many years, then ran Wiseco Performance Products (it was Wiseco Pistons until I got there). Not to mention we (Wiseco) bought JE Pistons in California, Carrilo Connecting Rods in California, Vertex Pistons in Italy, Prox Pistons in the Netherlands, and Perfect Bore (F1 components) in the UK. So, bottom line is I’ve been around performance engines my whole life. I do admire the ambition they show trying to make what is probably one of the most complex components in an engine. But, they will go through the learning process. My guess would be that without a cam shape on the piston, and using the “normal” clearance for piston to bore (for the thrust side of the piston) that they will have significant scuffing or indeed piston seizure at the pin bores. If they use a sufficient clearance (without cam shape) to avoid the inevitable expansion of the pin towers, then the rest of the skirt and crown area will have too much clearance and will not be efficient. As you know Bob, when their pistons reach operating temperature they will be oval, not round; and therein lies the problem. And why pistons are oval when cold, so they can be round at operating temperature. I’m sure that the engine will start and run, my worry is when they get to operating temperature and start to really push the engine and temperatures soar. Hopefully they have sufficient clearances for the motor to survive for a period of time, but I fear that it won’t last very long. Pleasure to meet you Bob. I guess we will see the outcome in a future episode. 😊
@@TigreBrian mate, what the F were you on when you wrote that? I really need it... that sort-of focus could help me with my thesis. I mean, F-ing hell, how long did it even take to write all the much?
@@AmritGrewal31 Hello Amrit, well, it actually didn't take that long, as I type pretty fast. Plus, it's all just a stream of consciousness from memory, so pretty easy stuff to write. Best of luck with your thesis! And Happy Holidays.
Amazing content, will you be reducing the counterweights on the factory crankshaft to compensate the lighter pistons or is the weight decrease of the pistons not significant enough to cause imbalance?
Is really cool and you get a lot more tuning capabilities over the rpm range, but you need to drive a compressor, by engjne power to let the valves go up and down. So i don't think it is really more efficiënt over the conventional camshaft as you use the high rpm range on the track anyway. But it is cool to see someone use the tech tho.
It allows you to tune for higher range of RPM but he's using 2618 because he only needs the top end. So, going camless would quite an obsolete yet expensive choice. 🤷🏻♂️
How much do you change the ovality and taper on the piston to compensate for differing materials and higher designed operating temperatures?. Curious about how you simulate the change in the shape of the piston at operating temperature based on the temperature gradient and the thermal mass in differing areas - ie it does not expand evenly in all directions. how is this then fed into the design for machining at room temperature. be interesting to see the F1 piston - how much ovality and taper in the design
What grade/alloy of aluminum are you using for the final product? Is it forged stock or cast stock? Congratulations on prototyping a design. There’s weeks of work that goes into getting something that works at all.
First things first. Not oval put tapered, and not F1 car pistons but road car with different tolerances. Another thing I saw when they measured existing piston, no doubt they doing a job good💁
Interesting study congratulations for achieving it. I'm going to do the same. Pro: One axis turning for machining the piston profile and the ring grooves (+1) Cons : Missing the elliptical shape of the piston. Your alusil liners will rapidly wear without the needed coatings... How did you set up the loadings on the software? Thermal and mechanical. Thanks.
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Part 3 is up! th-cam.com/video/P4evs4IkfOU/w-d-xo.html
I guess you use 2618 aluminum, but what about the elliptical shape and piston profile? Are you just ok with it not beeing round when its hot and it will wear linears and pistons fast ? Piston shape in cold state is very very important.
How about you ceramic coated the top and the skirts
@@karlssonengineering I think he's not aware of that pistons aren't round..
Talkin, talkin, talkin nnnnn talkinnnn. when do u breathe..or... sigh...?
Are you going to coat the surface of the pistons sidewalls, for less friction inside the cylinder? There’s a black coating which works suuuper crazy good for lowering friction and keeping the temps cool while having the piston slide up and down the cylinder more easily resulting in less performanceLoss and reaching higher rpm faster as well as loosing rpm faster when no gas is pressed.
This is amazing. Really looking forward to your future projects if this is your standard!
Wow, the quality of content on this channel is just so amazing. Love the spirit.
When TH-cam started we had DIYers tuning their cars and a few building kitcars. Today, people building the entire thing from scratch. What a journey!
Been a machinist for 30 years never seen anyone use the mill like that. Unreal! Way to think outside the box!
nothing special for "easy" tasks. i can´t believe you´ve never seen something like that...
I can't believe it, this man is making his own pistons even
@Muckin 4on as if it's that easy
@Muckin 4on Its a prototype, he doesnt especified the material and treatment that is going to be in the final product
@Muckin 4on You know what prototype means? Its just giving a try of the gcode in the machine, so he doesnt waste a expensive material. And He already told the load that should handle the design. That means he consider the yield strenght and others mech properties of the material in the calculus of the design with a safety factor. with that you can tell if viable to use the material or not
Come on man, Burt Monroe even cast his own 1000 years ago.. :D
I have a couple of suggestions for you.
1.) use a double spiral lock piston pin retainer (wire lock isn’t sufficient for that rpm)
2.) if you’re utilizing a dry sump system you can eliminate the oil control rings all together and use a Napier 2nd ring
3.) an accumulation groove between the top and 2nd ring wouldn’t be a bad idea
4.) a solid oil return design would be well worth the time in the design process
5.) checking the surface finish would be ideal and can be compensated with a coating
6.) if the design allows for a wider “rail” (for a lack of a better term) on the top of the pistons where it is at its thinnest that would be awesome. While the piston may sustain the pressure, it may not sustain the heat and can melt that edge
I know I'm late, just seeing this but WPC is a great surface treatment for parts, for pistons you have to be selective on where you treat them with this, but it is a great process.
Whu are you ?
I started watching your channel in 2018 because of your educational engineering videos. I'm glad you're getting back into it! Thanks for adding to the underserved MotorSport Mechanical Engineering market on TH-cam. If you can, please keep posting more nerdy engineering videos.
There's a lot of sharp concave corners in that design unlike the f1 or any other piston. Concave edges are stress concentrations and sources of fatigue cracks and should always be filleted for load bearing features
Super cool stuff though!!
Yeh it's just for the prototype. For the final ones we are using radiused endmills
@@xfmotorsports You always think of everything. Can't wait to see it run!
@@xfmotorsports About sharp edges, i've noticed that the skirt's side edge isn't vertical on F1 piston and mercedes has put a chamfer like cutout on it. The skirt itself also seems to have some kind of relief (or is it just a wear pattern?)
So excited for this amazing project
It's so cool to see the design process of this car. Can't wait to see the rest!
So need am vantage special zagato ?
One the projects I'm most impressed with. Great work as always!
Loving the videos, really interesting and well explained. Keep it up :)
This is an awesome video, thank you for making and posting it!
Amazing! I'm in a project for a class in my university in which we choose a piston to design the forging manufacture process and it is very similar to what you guys are doing!
i cant wait to hear that engine start when its finished.
Epic!!!! Well done mate they look awesome
Great work, you guys put a lot of thought into it. I wish I could like this more than once, thank you.
Can’t wait to follow more of this build!!!
Great. Thumbs up. Ever thought of making a sleeve valve engine with your knowledge about thermal expansion? I could provide the CAD.
One thing though, if u have a piston which can bear 250 bar, the open deck cylinder block will certainly be the limiting factor here, not the pistons.
Love the progress of the build!
Some amazing stuff happening here. Nice!
This is an awesome project kudos to you guys!
Mahle pistons are not only tapered, also egg-shaped. They're not round. it's compensation for the exhaust side getting hotter.
Maybe they compensated for this in the cam but i doubt it
@@D3nn1s How You gonna compensate the outer shaper of piston (round-oval) with a cam? :)
@@jareknowak8712 i didnt mean to write the, its late sry.
What i mean was cam like in computer aided manufacturing (the stuff that happens between cad and gcode)
@@jareknowak8712 The original machines for making oval pistons did use a cam: It moved a grinding wheel in and out slightly as the piston was rotated on the machine, which produced the correct oval shape. Thus they were called 'cam ground' pistons. Nowadays you can do the same thing with the CNC software.
@@nerd1000ify grinding wheels???? this model piston doesn't have to be oval. The parts to make it oval (for less friction) are already missing. And that's good!!
I so enjoy everything about this video great job thank you for the info
I'm very impressed! Just a quick note, I'd make the sharp edges of the piston rounded. Round shapes will reduce stress concentrations, especially if the part is CNC'd instead of forged.
Awesome! Thanks for sharing.
Man it brings me joy to see how you have grown from a garage project to basically teaching engineering students in your own workshop
Hi XF and Marhew. Thank you for your vid. Your design requires substantial skirt ovality because the boss webs expand lengthwise with combustion heat. If you run these at a similar clearance to original pistons, they will sieize in 4 places. In contrast, a very basic design such as a 2 stroke, can get away with almost no ovality. With your equipment and expertise, a precision oval turning attachment that you could make yourselves is absolutely do-able. Reply to this comment if you want some pictures of my version for a cnc mill. Piston Pete UK.
Make oil feed through piston, so it will be extremely cooled by oil.
The only issue with that is that it reduced structural rigidity. So if you are doing rebuilds or replacements every 2 or three races like a pro team then maybe, but for the needed durability of low cost club racing, I would avoid it.
@@commentaryking5165 Maybe they can add thin pipe or use not pure aluminum to strengthen the piston, to make some kind of complicated drilling, I think pure aluminum is is bad for the load that they are trying to do, also the block itself is aluminum. Im watching other channel where they restore engines and modern engines are aluminum - trash that doesn't hold shape. Cast iron blocks come with 4 - 5 times more milage than aluminum. Skirts on modern pistons, piston rings, oil drain holes on piston oil rings, everything is done towards fuel efficiency and higher hp with less engineering.
@@pfoxhound I agree that pure aluminum is not the best choice, although I believe he said it was chosen just for gcode. So the final product will be made out of something else. There is always a trade off of some kind, that's for sure.
@@pfoxhound not true. Aluminum just needs a coating since otherwise it will deform too easily. Disadvantage of surfave hardening is that it will change shape slightly and you cant really do anything afterwards except grinding a couple thousands off, so extreme precision is required which this cnc cant do, esp not with the temperature changes. Im really sorry and maybe they have it conpletely planned out but i predict failiure sooner than later. Milled stock is one of the weakest form of metal
@@pfoxhound There might be a problem with that maybe? I’m not very knowledgeable about engines but I do know people remove piston oil squirters on the 2JZ because hot pistons + cooled oil caused blown engines. Perhaps the same logic might be applied here?
What material is the billet. I would suggest for a production run, get the shape you need, slightly under size the wrist pin holes, solution heat treat and age to the final temper, then final machine and ream the wrist pin hole. Then look into surface coatings such as sulfuric acid anodize or chem film.
2618 forged alloy
12:27 i think the clearance was perfect, considering that aluminum expands alot more than steel and the piston will be alot hotter than the wrist pin.
Did you mean 22:27
@@zakr1187 no i'm talking about the wrist pin
Yup i agree, it shouldnt be too loose, otherwise it will knock around and bend the aluminum
I thought the clearance was perfect also
Im so stoked to see this
Cool project!
Design has several areas with sharp corners which will result in stress concentrations where fatigue cracks will form. For something like this fatigue is critical, need to analyze it subject to the acceleration loading it will see at TDC, BDC at max rpm and see what happens. Ball end mill can get you the required fillets in the pockets. Otherwise, exciting project. Maybe you can make me some custom pistons!
He answered a different comment pointing out the same thing and he just didn't do it for the prototype pistons but will radius the real pistons
Crazy cool, nice work,
Wow! Like the design decisions behind this.
Forged w/finished machining will be stronger (f1 piston) and less prone to stress cracks due to proper grain flow in the metal lattice
Billet machined wont have proper grain flow and will be more prone to fatigue and stress cracking across grain boundaries. This isn’t simulated in the FEA you’ve run.
Good nugget of info to tell your viewers.
Yeah i thought the same. Im really worried that it wont work. Its also need really good cooling and oiling otherwise the block will enjoy a nice bite out of it
They're machined from forged 2618. The material about 30% stronger than the regular 4032 forged pistons. It just has a 20% higher expansion rate which is why road cars don't use them
@Jessica Suzumiya not assuming, it wasnt said in the video is all buddy, im a materials engineer mate
@@xfmotorsports are you annealing the final product? that will improve the grain flow substantially
If you ever need anything 3D scanning, I run a small engineering business in the UK (insta @Laminar.solutions) and would be happy to use our laser scanners to give you hand on any projects.
Love your content, keep it up!
@Jessica Suzumiya mate, he never assumed him to be an idiot, rather merely made a genuine suggestion. Then he got an fairly inoffensive reply.
If you want drama, go watch some bloggers. This is how we tend to communicate in STEM... straight to the point.
Mercedes Benz's engineers: makes a piston
XF Motorsport engeneers : Not good enough
🤣
Well, they are not getting all that went into that AMG piston.
They even compare Billet to Forged ...
well, there is a difference between costs of standard production cars and the exclusive models, Good enough is for what application it is intended for
Love your content. Thank you very much!
Hi, nice video. How do you estimate the thermal expansion of the cylinder in order to choose the correct clearence between piston and cylinder?
Can't wait for the next vid. Definitely want to dry sump my m113 one day as well
Just curious, are you going to adjust the weights of the crankshaft balancing weights to adjust for the now lighter pistons?
This is amazing you have come so far buddy it's awesome, I wish I had half the knowledge you do. Throwing this out there would you ever consider making pistons for any other mercedes engines like the M111.975? We are having so much trouble to find affordable solutions to the brittle mercedes pistons well Nural pistons. We have found like the M104 the engine is tough but the pistons let it down and have limited options in the UK for machining. I know it's a bit off the wall especially considering you specialise in the V8s
The material you're using will determine expansion taper, and the top of the piston is called the crown...💯 But congratulations on pushing the boundaries, you've got a new subscriber
Are you going to have the pistons coated with Teflon or Ceramic?
I really enjoy watching your progress, from building a Race car
from scratch, to making pistons
In your new shop. Thanks for taking us along. 😊👍
You are amazing man , i'm following from libya
Your work inspires me bro. Mercedes doesn’t have much aftermarket support and it’s sad but you got a great thing going keep the motion
Taking "building it better" to another level!
Amazing, this is good content
I'm impressed with your piston lathe. Holding the tool in the vice :D That's creativity.
Cheers!
i'm wondering about heat treating those pistons. is that part of the plan? i was also wondering about the density of your aluminum vs. what you used for your simulations. are you planning on refining the FEA with updated material properties?
What material did you use to make the piston and what is your clearance between the piston and bore. Just curious about thermal expansion and how you calculated for it.
This channel is so much underrated
fascinating work!
Next level engineering 👏👏👏👏
Good work 👍
can you please make video on Finite element analyais
I've done fea to some degree but if you use Ansys I would like imdepth with boundaries
Going fast is definitely cool but the journey to achieve fast is the real joy. Enjoy the journey !
Did you use an offset wrist pin or did you straight up?
18:34 now thats is one heavy piston. Just kidding man, nice video as always!
Ah the good old days! Get your 850 cc Mini block. Bore it out to 1150 cc (carefully, to avoid the water ways). De-stroke it back to 850 cc. Spin it up to 11,000 rpm and away you go! Fun days!
Looks like you need to try out trochoidal high speed milling to speed up your roughing process. But very impressed in how you used your mill as a lathe to finish the OD of the pistons.
Would love to visit this guy for once. Best youtube channel for geeky stuffs.
Awesome 😲👌👌
It looks like there was some technology sharing when Daimler-Benz owned Chrysler. the combustion chamber on those heads is basically a 3-valve version of gen 3 Hemi right down to the dual spark plugs. granted the Benz head is a OHC and the Hemi is a push rod engine. but it is amazing how similar the intake and exhaust runners are to a gen 3 hemi as well. amazing video.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!!!!! Next step. Designing your own turbos haha.
hi , saw your videous of suspension geometry , wanted to know which soft you were
using?
Good job 👍
Making pistons lighter is really important for high revving engine, but even more important is to reduce stroke to achieve lower speed/inertia of the piston. The valves and in particular the valve spring are the other thing you should think about if you would want 11k+ rpms. I am really curious how this will perform. Congratulations on this amazing project !
At 10000 RPM a piston "weighs" 5000 times as much as at 0 RPM. so the saving of 20g+ will make a big differance at 11k rpm.
This project just keeps getting better.
Im sorry if I missed this but what material will you make the final piston out of? Titanium?
Are there any books you would recommend on internal combustion engines? I would really like to learn more about clearances, engine designs etc. And I'm a bit puzzled on where to start.
Excellent job
Kudos to you - you are definitely pushing way through the boundaries of small company tuning development and I admire this very much.
I am very curious, you have not mentioned the metallurgy of your pistons - can you tell us which alloy you are using, what, if any, final treatment process you intend to apply and whether you are going to utilise any of the many coating treatments available?
I love this channel.
First of all, I take my hat off to you for taking on such an ambitious project! And after watching this video I can see that you put a lot of thought into the design. The problem is, you don't know, what you don't know... :-) Here are a few things that I believe you should think about.
1. Piston Design.
Pistons are not simply round and tapered... They are oval through the pin bore axis to account for the greater mass of the pin bore towers, which WILL expand more than the thrust and anti-thrust faces of the piston. Therefore, simply turning the piston round (and the ring grooves too) isn't wise. The "Cold" design of the piston will determine the "Hot" shape of the piston. The goal being that at full operating temperature the piston is round and straight. Therefore, by turning the piston with a round profile when cold, will mean that the piston will be oval at operating temperature. Pistons made by piston manufacturers for OEM Street (in the case of your sample piston is made by KS or Kolbenschmidt) are turned by a "cam lathe" which gives the oval horizontal profile, at the same time it gives the vertical profile a "Barrel Shape". The shape is highly complex and varies by the mass and thickness of the material at any given point.
The Ferrari F1 piston you showed (manufactured by MAHLE I believe in 2001) is machined from a forged blank with the finished machining removing as little of the surface as possible. And it's only designed to run a few hours, maybe 250 hours, not 250,000 miles... So a comparison is unwise, unless you plan on rebuilding the engine after a very few hours. And that 2001 F1 piston is what I would consider "Old School" these days, as design has moved on in 20 years :-)))
You may want to consider oil return holes in the back of the oil ring groove. Because the pumping pressures in that ring groove will be considerably higher than in a stock street engine. Another consideration is a gas relief or accumulator groove between the top and second ring, allowing for combustion gas which escapes the top ring, an area to expand into, rather than trying to force the second ring back into the second ring groove.
It would be wise to chamfer all the sharp edges you have on the piston skirt tail and other areas. Especially as "piston slap" will be a feature of the piston you have made, simply due to the cold or ambient temperature tolerances you will have to run due to the alloy and lack of piston ovality. And as a precautionary feature, you might consider a skirt coating, such as Zylan or one of the other skirt coating materials. This could assist at cooler temperatures during startup.
Given that you didn't create a barrel/ovality profile, I don't imagine you considered pin bore ovality or pin bore profile either. Under high load a wrist pin distorts and tries to ovalize, thus putting extreme pressure on the oil film between the pin and pin bore. This can be alleviated by giving the pin bore some ovality, or removing some material at these stress point to allow the pin to ovalize. This can be especially important in the "sheer plane" between the piston pin boss and the connecting rod bore. I would usually design in a slight taper to give the pin bore boss a "flair" or shape similar to a velocity stack. This reduces the stress on the pin in this crucial area.
What are you making the wrist pins out of? Tool Steel? Or are you buying pins? If you are making them, you can consider tapering the inside wall from the outside ends of the pins, getting larger as they approach the highest load area in the center. This will remove a lot of weight from the pin, and thus the piston assembly.
2. Material Choice.
While 2618 is a good choice sometimes 4032 is chosen. 2618 (Originally developed by Rolls Royce for the Merlin engines during World War 2) has a higher coefficient of expansion than 4032, but due to its ductility is often chosen as it can "take more abuse" (in many way, abuse is what we try to avoid when designing a piston :-) However, it requires much more cold clearance than the KS CAST Hypereutectic piston you are using as a base, therefore you will have to take this into consideration when you calculate your cold clearances. 4032 is formulated with a much higher silicon content (silicon is added to reduce the expansion of the alloy) and can be as high as 12.2% (or a little higher) which is right on the border of Hypereutectic alloys. This affords the piston a greatly reduced Coefficient of Expansion, and increases the wear characteristics making the piston more durable, but makes the piston less tolerant of detonation. In general, I recommend 2618 for race use, and 4032 for street, even high performance street. However, depending on the actual use of the vehicle that can change too. 2618 is "Stronger" having a higher tensile, yield, and fatigue strength than 4032, and it melts at a slightly higher temperature. All of which is why it was chosen for the Spitfire and Mustang fighter aircraft. But, it does mean that the engines must be warmed up carefully, and piston profiles must be carefully calculated as 2618 will expand up to 15% more than 4032, and even more than a Hypereutectic alloy. So, basing your tolerances on the KS piston is very unwise.
3. Manufacturing Method.
It's also important to note that 2618 and 4032 are really designed as alloys for forging, and don't reach their full potential unless they are forged "near net" (in other words, forging the pistons shapes (mostly under the crown) into the alloy at, or very near, their finished shapes. In fact, the reason 4032's silicon content is limited to around 12% is that once an alloy reaches much higher than this it becomes VERY difficult to forge by conventional (heat and beat) methods; and Isothermal Forging is required, a complex method. This "compaction" of the crystalline alloy structure imparts additional strength and toughness. Imagine if you will, a plank of wood (the billet material) and plywood (the forged material) and you will understand what I mean. So, while 2618 is a good choice, you will have to really be careful with your tolerances when the engine is cold. Also, machining directly into billet without subsequent heat treatment will cause other issues.
4. Protective Finishes and Coatings.
In an engine which reaches higher RPM and thermal loads it is wise to consider Hard Anodizing of the first ring groove and the pin bores. This harder surface prevents galling and localized micro welding. You might also consider a Diamond Like Coating (DLC) of the wrist pin.
5. Other considerations...
Will you be rebalancing the crankshaft? I would have thought this is necessary due to the large change in the reciprocating mass. And reducing the crank weight will also aid you in your goal of 11,000 rpm.
What ring pack will you use, and what will be the thickness of the rings? In this application I wouldn't go any thinner than 1 mm.
Will you profile the underside of the piston crown to remove excess weight? Matching the under crown to the crown will help get the weight down.
And likewise will you remove material from the pin boss between the under crown and pin bore?
Just a thought for the future... 3D Printed Pistons... You can really remove some weight when you can easily leave voids where it would be really tough to machine it away... It's possible to utilize Diesel piston tech, such as oil cooling galleries in a gas engine, which can really help thermal dissipation. This is the future of piston manufacturing, for limited production anyway.
Hope some of this helps. I really hope your design survives, but from what I can see it certainly isn't optimized, and could fail if tolerances aren't opened up. Best of luck!
Not just me then Brian.
How these fellas have got the brass neck to stand about grinning thinking they can better the vast experience of companies like AMG and more so the Very best
Ferrari astounds me, but equaly
looking at the comments i'm surprised so many commenters think it's easy to do,but as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.Think in reality it will just stay
in the fridge.
I am getting on a bit now but I did my time with AE, Hepworth and Grandage,Wellworthy etc.You?
Ps. I was just going to tell these
blokes there is more to the subject
than you think/know. But your comment says it all.
Shiney though, and of course they said billet alot🙄
@@velobob4299 Hello Bob. Well, I’ve been building racing engines for over 35 years. Plus I ran MAHLE’s aftermarket division in the US for many years, then ran Wiseco Performance Products (it was Wiseco Pistons until I got there). Not to mention we (Wiseco) bought JE Pistons in California, Carrilo Connecting Rods in California, Vertex Pistons in Italy, Prox Pistons in the Netherlands, and Perfect Bore (F1 components) in the UK. So, bottom line is I’ve been around performance engines my whole life.
I do admire the ambition they show trying to make what is probably one of the most complex components in an engine. But, they will go through the learning process. My guess would be that without a cam shape on the piston, and using the “normal” clearance for piston to bore (for the thrust side of the piston) that they will have significant scuffing or indeed piston seizure at the pin bores. If they use a sufficient clearance (without cam shape) to avoid the inevitable expansion of the pin towers, then the rest of the skirt and crown area will have too much clearance and will not be efficient.
As you know Bob, when their pistons reach operating temperature they will be oval, not round; and therein lies the problem. And why pistons are oval when cold, so they can be round at operating temperature.
I’m sure that the engine will start and run, my worry is when they get to operating temperature and start to really push the engine and temperatures soar.
Hopefully they have sufficient clearances for the motor to survive for a period of time, but I fear that it won’t last very long.
Pleasure to meet you Bob. I guess we will see the outcome in a future episode. 😊
@@TigreBrian mate, what the F were you on when you wrote that? I really need it... that sort-of focus could help me with my thesis.
I mean, F-ing hell, how long did it even take to write all the much?
@@AmritGrewal31 Hello Amrit, well, it actually didn't take that long, as I type pretty fast. Plus, it's all just a stream of consciousness from memory, so pretty easy stuff to write. Best of luck with your thesis! And Happy Holidays.
@@TigreBrian would it be possible to heat it up to operating temperature, and then turn it?
How come you keep the stock piston rod's? they are that good / strong? How much whp you think the can take from the m113k the rods?
Do you mind me asking what grade of aluminium will you use for the final items, thanks
Amazing content
is there any point to making the pocket around the intake valves a little deeper, for a some more float and add it back in around the sides?
Amazing content, will you be reducing the counterweights on the factory crankshaft to compensate the lighter pistons or is the weight decrease of the pistons not significant enough to cause imbalance?
did you leave the oil return holes out of the oil ring bore because this is a prototype?
Finally a new video
Awesome👍
U guys are geniuses
After the dry sump you need to start to design to go camless for the high rpm
Camless need solenoid and computer to can operate.
Is really cool and you get a lot more tuning capabilities over the rpm range, but you need to drive a compressor, by engjne power to let the valves go up and down. So i don't think it is really more efficiënt over the conventional camshaft as you use the high rpm range on the track anyway. But it is cool to see someone use the tech tho.
It allows you to tune for higher range of RPM but he's using 2618 because he only needs the top end.
So, going camless would quite an obsolete yet expensive choice. 🤷🏻♂️
Thank you, But, Where did you get the Proper material of block for this piston ?? Thank you :-)
Very professional
How much do you change the ovality and taper on the piston to compensate for differing materials and higher designed operating temperatures?.
Curious about how you simulate the change in the shape of the piston at operating temperature based on the temperature gradient and the thermal mass in differing areas - ie it does not expand evenly in all directions.
how is this then fed into the design for machining at room temperature.
be interesting to see the F1 piston - how much ovality and taper in the design
Good job frend...
I like those robots carving the pistons....HUMANS ARE AMAZING able to create those robots.
What grade/alloy of aluminum are you using for the final product? Is it forged stock or cast stock?
Congratulations on prototyping a design. There’s weeks of work that goes into getting something that works at all.
Pistons are slightly oval to allow expansion in the direction of piston pin. From what I saw of the final turning of your piston it is not.
Quer ensinar o padre a rezar a missa...
There is much the father could learn from him
First things first. Not oval put tapered, and not F1 car pistons but road car with different tolerances. Another thing I saw when they measured existing piston, no doubt they doing a job good💁
Can anyone tell whether zinc aluminum alloy is good for making pistons of bitzer semi hermetic
@@maciejsn2126 Pistons are tapered and oval
Amazing
thanks for sharing. i really enjoy seeing your family and friends help.
Wow you great bro
Please advice what is the type of aluminum you use to make the piston.
Interesting study congratulations for achieving it. I'm going to do the same.
Pro: One axis turning for machining the piston profile and the ring grooves (+1)
Cons : Missing the elliptical shape of the piston. Your alusil liners will rapidly wear without the needed coatings...
How did you set up the loadings on the software? Thermal and mechanical. Thanks.
wild machining skills
If you change the pistons, does the crankshaft not need to be balanced to accommodate the change in weight of the pistons?