Your videos are great, but I cannot express how much I appreciate the references. I am about to start my first season of ultra distance cycling, and I'll make good use of all this info. Thank you for the content!
Thanks Pablo! Good luck in your first season. Doing research to prepare is valuable, but nothing replaces going out and riding. I'd love to hear any topics you come across that you would like covered as you go through your first season. There is lots of good reading among those sources. This project took more hours than any other video, but resulted in better sleep habits and feeling better in day to day life. Without strong support, I would just be a guy with an opinion. Glad you found value in the style.
I am currently binge watching your videos and I am amazed by your scientific _and_ common sense approach. I know it's not exactly the topic of your channel, but many things are similar in multi day self supported ultra events, like the TCR, Three Peaks etc. And one pattern that I recognised is this fetish of riding at least through the first night. Even the Grand Departs are very often (late) in the evening, as if to provoke this. Just imagine: On the second day of a one or two weeks event you are already robbed of your circadian rhythm, lost min 5% of your physical capacity, put your self in life-danger (as almost all severe accidents in those events happen at night) - and just feel miserable. Thankfully you put it in your last sleep schedule graphic: In multi day events just sleep at normal times, only maybe a little short! Thanks!
Thank you for the kind words, I hope you enjoy the binge! This one is perhaps the video I'm most proud of so far. In practice, it has greatly improved my experience during brevets and recovering from them at home. For folks trying to win a competition or have personal time goals, I get sacrificing some sleep. Others just enjoy the feeling of exhaustion. But most of us shouldn't feel beholden to flawed practices just because they have become normalized. 4-7 hours a night near normal sleep times is where it's at.
Thank you for the kind words, Pip. Researching for videos like this is rewarding, even if it takes loads of time. I hope you can enjoy more safety and a more positive experience on those really long rides.
Last year a friend and I had planned a 500km mixed gravel/tar ride in 24hours starting at midnight. I'm typically a terrible sleeper waking many times in the night and usually not getting to sleep before midnight and waking anywhere between 5.00am and 6.00am, 7.00am is a good sleep in for me. 5 weeks before I did a planned solo shake down ride of 450kms, I banked sleep the week before by going to bed at 10.00pm and managed to get a good run of sleep leading up to the day before my ride. The night of my ride I got only 45mins sleep before setting off at midnight. For the first 2 hours I kept my HR below 130bpm, this is what I usually do on long rides when the terrain is flat. After 2 hours and starting into the hills I kept my HR below 145bpm which is about 5bpm below what I class as my upper aerobic zone. I do not use aero bars but ride a lot in the puppy paws position. I ended up eating and drinking way way way less than expected, slightly cool conditions helped with that. I felt good the whole ride, didn't get tired at all, the only complaint was I got slightly sore around the upper body/shoulders area from being in the puppy paws position for so long. 455kms, 20 hours, 6000m climbing. I wanted to save the 500kms for the ride with my friend but unfortunately covid struck when my wife attended a Christmas party the week before. My previous longest ride was 370kms done with my friend, mixed gravel and tar the previous year. I thoroughly enjoyed the 455km ride and would like to do it again, however after a couple of cyclones in the past month the road has been destroyed in places and the circuit is unrideable, probably for over a year. On the planned date for our 500km ride my friend decided to set off on his own, he is used to doing multi day big rides/tours. He started at midnight but got really tired around the middle of the day and needed a nap. He said starting out at midnight was a mistake. He cut his ride short and did 371kms. I'm picking he did not bank any sleep (he also is a terrible sleeper) and he had also contracted covid a few months previously, this also may have had an effect on him. We have scheduled a repeat attempt at the 500kms for later this year, but before the Christmas partys begin (we are in New Zealand so in the spring time).
Thanks for sharing your story, Greg. I enjoyed reading about your experience, but the recent cyclones there are a tragedy. Was it the Hawke's Bay trail that got damaged? Really impressive performances by you and your friend too, even if he didn't finish his attempt. Banking sleep is really valuable, especially if you run on a chronic sleep deficit like most modern folk. We have some local brevets with night starts, and I just avoid those. If I were to do a 24 hour demanding push like you are attempting, I would probably add caffeine to my plan. Best of luck on your attempt. I'd enjoy reading a ride report if you get the chance to write one up.
@@overbikedrandonneuring Thank you, yes the Hawkes bay got really hammered the most and many peoples lives have been affected, but so did Northland, Auckland and the Coromandel roads which is where I did my 455km ride, from Auckland to a loop around the State Highway 25 and 25a Coromandel and back to Auckland. Even in this past week whenever it rains the Coromandel is suffering from further slips as the ground is so wet and unstable. Also, many local roads that I ride have been affected. I'm glad I got my ride in the area before this happened as it is a great place to ride. There are many roads damaged which are going to take a year or more to remedy. I'm thinking any long ride is going to need a different route and some of the other areas I wanted to ride in through autumn have also been damaged. I tend to cut back on the longer rides through summer due to the sun and heat and prefer to build up mileage through autumn, winter and spring as the weather is usually pretty mild although of course the days are shorter.
Wow, in depth review of the research on sleep deprivation and endurance performance. Lots of food for thought here and timely since this is a PBP year. Thanks for the video!
Thanks RR! Are you registering for PBP this year? I've heard it is a different beast from domestic brevets. You reminded me that I should try to get some recumbent content up this year. It's been a few years since I've ridden mine though.
@@overbikedrandonneuring I have a pre registration slot for PBP. It's definitely a daunting prospect but no matter what happens I gotta give it a try. I agree, dust off that recumbent and give it some love!🙂
Great content yet again! Our season opening Fléche will start at 5pm. It has some advantages, but I still feel a bit uncomfortable starting a 24h ride that late. We’ll see! (channel is really useful. Not sure why you don’t have like 10-20x subscribers..)
Good luck with the Fleche! Those are so much fun. Evening start time are a double (triple?) edged sword I imagine. You carry less fatigue when darkness falls, but have more pressure to ride through the night, but then have 11 hours of daylight to finish when fatigue is most high. There is also the team aspect, where agreement on pacing and sleep needs to happen. Team riding can be much more efficient if done well, or much slower if break stops, meals, and mechanicals are managed poorly. I'd love to hear what strategies your team uses and how it works out.
I've never biked through a night, but I have hiked through the night when I was in the army as an exercise. I even kinda enjoyed the hallucinations. Afterwards we got some hot chocolate with some booze and I remember getting into the back end of an open truck and the next thing I remembered was woken 300 km away... Yeah that was some solid sleep :-) I am fascinated by ultra endurance but haven't bitten the bullet yet because my body starts protesting way too early (back and knees...).
I've done a fair bit of night hiking too (AT and PCT thru hikes). It can be a lovely feeling, and the peace at night is addictive. The big difference on a bike is traversing public roads moving swiftly. Last month on the local 400k, I had about 3 hours of night riding and started up the next day just before sunrise. Still plenty of enjoyment from that style of riding environment, but was never at risk of dozing off into a ditch. Hoping to follow the same plan for the 600k this weekend. If you are interested, I hope you can work up to your target distances. Doing planks helped strength my back a lot, but I also keep a recumbent around for when the body falls to pieces.
thanks for your great info , i would like make ultra distance and now i am in training and for now i try to start 4h on 1h rest 4h on 1h rest 4h on 6 h rest 4h on and go head for more than 20 days . could you thinks will be resonable or do i have consider an 8h stop over in hotel every 3 days to recover in anticipation of so many days for do this divide of 7600km off road with pace of 22/25km h . i will try this strategy in april in a 720km test that i would like to do in 32/38h .thanks if you give me your opinion
Hi Cesare, thank you for watching and for a good question. Your background and experience with long distance sports and cycling in general will heavily impact what will be best practice for you. How long have you been cycling, what is your typical yearly mileage, and what are the longest rides you have completed recently? Do you have ultra distance experience with other sports like running? Your target speeds are quite fast. The context of a 2 day ride and a 20 day ride are very, very different. The 20 day ride will need to use pacing, fueling, and rest strategies that are nearly infinitely sustainable. A 2 day ride can be done aggressively by comparison. It may seem odd, but consider doing training rides each day in the week before your 720km practice ride. That way you don't begin that ride fresh and it will better emulate the fatigued state you will experience on the 20 day ride. 6 hours rest per night and hotel stops every few days may be adequate with good fueling, hydration, and proper pacing. Hotel stops usually coincide with food resupply and 1-2 restaurant meals. Consider hotel stops valuable for hygiene too. When hiking the Appalachian and Pacific Crest Trails, we would often wash clothes while showering. Hygiene is especially valuable if you develop saddle sores or skin damage.
Rando guy here. For Pbp or Lel Re caffeine, I find myself wondering if it wouldn't be better to try to substitute cat naps for caffeine. I find that if I'm caffeinated I can't sleep when getting to controls.. dunno
For sure, caffeine is a double edged sword. When caffeinated at night, I often sleep restless and sweating. Based on typical circadian rhythms (mid-afternoon dip) and caffein half-life, I think morning caffeine use and reaching peak caffeination after lunch, then no more caffeine ingestion for the day would be a suitable strategy. At least, as long as daily distance goals can be achieved between 10pm and midnight followed by a long block of sleep. Moving forward, I will be promoting long sleep chunks instead of cat naps for those who just want to finish on time. The sleep quality is shown to be higher, and more physical recovery is made possible by deep sleep, and cat naps cut into sleep chunk time. Staying close to the sleep schedule used in regular life also will aid the transition back to normal life when the event is over. Everyone has different goals though. Cat naps and short sleep chunks would be the choice for trying to finish anything 400km and above quickly.
Sleep deprivation turns me off to the very long rides in randonneuring events. It has little to do with exercise or fitness, and is dangerous and unpleasant.
I strongly agree with you Bart, and know many other people do as well. I've had many miserable and dangerous moments early in my time as a randonneur due to following traditional conventions. A primary reason I started this channel is to encourage a style of riding that allows randonneurs to get plenty of sleep. Maybe it is possible to reframe the norms of the sport to value sleep instead of vaunting the ability to suffer through sleep deprivation. Some types of riders will revel in that challenge no matter what, but the rest of us should be able to succeed at and enjoy sport too. Through even pacing, strong nutrition and hydration, and by using a very quick bike setup, I believe riders of modest fitness (like myself) can complete events while getting 5+ hours of sleep per night.
Your videos are great, but I cannot express how much I appreciate the references. I am about to start my first season of ultra distance cycling, and I'll make good use of all this info. Thank you for the content!
Thanks Pablo! Good luck in your first season. Doing research to prepare is valuable, but nothing replaces going out and riding. I'd love to hear any topics you come across that you would like covered as you go through your first season.
There is lots of good reading among those sources. This project took more hours than any other video, but resulted in better sleep habits and feeling better in day to day life. Without strong support, I would just be a guy with an opinion. Glad you found value in the style.
I am currently binge watching your videos and I am amazed by your scientific _and_ common sense approach. I know it's not exactly the topic of your channel, but many things are similar in multi day self supported ultra events, like the TCR, Three Peaks etc. And one pattern that I recognised is this fetish of riding at least through the first night. Even the Grand Departs are very often (late) in the evening, as if to provoke this. Just imagine: On the second day of a one or two weeks event you are already robbed of your circadian rhythm, lost min 5% of your physical capacity, put your self in life-danger (as almost all severe accidents in those events happen at night) - and just feel miserable. Thankfully you put it in your last sleep schedule graphic: In multi day events just sleep at normal times, only maybe a little short! Thanks!
Thank you for the kind words, I hope you enjoy the binge! This one is perhaps the video I'm most proud of so far. In practice, it has greatly improved my experience during brevets and recovering from them at home. For folks trying to win a competition or have personal time goals, I get sacrificing some sleep. Others just enjoy the feeling of exhaustion. But most of us shouldn't feel beholden to flawed practices just because they have become normalized. 4-7 hours a night near normal sleep times is where it's at.
Just came across your channel, fantastic content, well researched and put together. Notch above the rest!
Thank you for the kind words, Pip. Researching for videos like this is rewarding, even if it takes loads of time. I hope you can enjoy more safety and a more positive experience on those really long rides.
Last year a friend and I had planned a 500km mixed gravel/tar ride in 24hours starting at midnight. I'm typically a terrible sleeper waking many times in the night and usually not getting to sleep before midnight and waking anywhere between 5.00am and 6.00am, 7.00am is a good sleep in for me. 5 weeks before I did a planned solo shake down ride of 450kms, I banked sleep the week before by going to bed at 10.00pm and managed to get a good run of sleep leading up to the day before my ride. The night of my ride I got only 45mins sleep before setting off at midnight.
For the first 2 hours I kept my HR below 130bpm, this is what I usually do on long rides when the terrain is flat. After 2 hours and starting into the hills I kept my HR below 145bpm which is about 5bpm below what I class as my upper aerobic zone. I do not use aero bars but ride a lot in the puppy paws position. I ended up eating and drinking way way way less than expected, slightly cool conditions helped with that. I felt good the whole ride, didn't get tired at all, the only complaint was I got slightly sore around the upper body/shoulders area from being in the puppy paws position for so long. 455kms, 20 hours, 6000m climbing. I wanted to save the 500kms for the ride with my friend but unfortunately covid struck when my wife attended a Christmas party the week before. My previous longest ride was 370kms done with my friend, mixed gravel and tar the previous year. I thoroughly enjoyed the 455km ride and would like to do it again, however after a couple of cyclones in the past month the road has been destroyed in places and the circuit is unrideable, probably for over a year.
On the planned date for our 500km ride my friend decided to set off on his own, he is used to doing multi day big rides/tours. He started at midnight but got really tired around the middle of the day and needed a nap. He said starting out at midnight was a mistake. He cut his ride short and did 371kms. I'm picking he did not bank any sleep (he also is a terrible sleeper) and he had also contracted covid a few months previously, this also may have had an effect on him.
We have scheduled a repeat attempt at the 500kms for later this year, but before the Christmas partys begin (we are in New Zealand so in the spring time).
Thanks for sharing your story, Greg. I enjoyed reading about your experience, but the recent cyclones there are a tragedy. Was it the Hawke's Bay trail that got damaged? Really impressive performances by you and your friend too, even if he didn't finish his attempt. Banking sleep is really valuable, especially if you run on a chronic sleep deficit like most modern folk. We have some local brevets with night starts, and I just avoid those. If I were to do a 24 hour demanding push like you are attempting, I would probably add caffeine to my plan. Best of luck on your attempt. I'd enjoy reading a ride report if you get the chance to write one up.
@@overbikedrandonneuring Thank you, yes the Hawkes bay got really hammered the most and many peoples lives have been affected, but so did Northland, Auckland and the Coromandel roads which is where I did my 455km ride, from Auckland to a loop around the State Highway 25 and 25a Coromandel and back to Auckland. Even in this past week whenever it rains the Coromandel is suffering from further slips as the ground is so wet and unstable. Also, many local roads that I ride have been affected. I'm glad I got my ride in the area before this happened as it is a great place to ride. There are many roads damaged which are going to take a year or more to remedy. I'm thinking any long ride is going to need a different route and some of the other areas I wanted to ride in through autumn have also been damaged. I tend to cut back on the longer rides through summer due to the sun and heat and prefer to build up mileage through autumn, winter and spring as the weather is usually pretty mild although of course the days are shorter.
Great info and stats, as ever. Thanks for the reading you do, so that I don't have to!
Wow, in depth review of the research on sleep deprivation and endurance performance. Lots of food for thought here and timely since this is a PBP year. Thanks for the video!
Thanks RR! Are you registering for PBP this year? I've heard it is a different beast from domestic brevets. You reminded me that I should try to get some recumbent content up this year. It's been a few years since I've ridden mine though.
@@overbikedrandonneuring I have a pre registration slot for PBP. It's definitely a daunting prospect but no matter what happens I gotta give it a try.
I agree, dust off that recumbent and give it some love!🙂
@@randorecumbent Good luck! It's a dream come true for many cyclists. I hope everything falls into place for you.
Great content yet again! Our season opening Fléche will start at 5pm. It has some advantages, but I still feel a bit uncomfortable starting a 24h ride that late.
We’ll see!
(channel is really useful. Not sure why you don’t have like 10-20x subscribers..)
Good luck with the Fleche! Those are so much fun. Evening start time are a double (triple?) edged sword I imagine. You carry less fatigue when darkness falls, but have more pressure to ride through the night, but then have 11 hours of daylight to finish when fatigue is most high. There is also the team aspect, where agreement on pacing and sleep needs to happen. Team riding can be much more efficient if done well, or much slower if break stops, meals, and mechanicals are managed poorly. I'd love to hear what strategies your team uses and how it works out.
I've never biked through a night, but I have hiked through the night when I was in the army as an exercise. I even kinda enjoyed the hallucinations. Afterwards we got some hot chocolate with some booze and I remember getting into the back end of an open truck and the next thing I remembered was woken 300 km away... Yeah that was some solid sleep :-) I am fascinated by ultra endurance but haven't bitten the bullet yet because my body starts protesting way too early (back and knees...).
I've done a fair bit of night hiking too (AT and PCT thru hikes). It can be a lovely feeling, and the peace at night is addictive. The big difference on a bike is traversing public roads moving swiftly. Last month on the local 400k, I had about 3 hours of night riding and started up the next day just before sunrise. Still plenty of enjoyment from that style of riding environment, but was never at risk of dozing off into a ditch. Hoping to follow the same plan for the 600k this weekend. If you are interested, I hope you can work up to your target distances. Doing planks helped strength my back a lot, but I also keep a recumbent around for when the body falls to pieces.
thanks for your great info , i would like make ultra distance and now i am in training and for now i try to start 4h on 1h rest 4h on 1h rest 4h on 6 h rest 4h on and go head for more than 20 days . could you thinks will be resonable or do i have consider an 8h stop over in hotel every 3 days to recover in anticipation of so many days for do this divide of 7600km off road with pace of 22/25km h . i will try this strategy in april in a 720km test that i would like to do in 32/38h .thanks if you give me your opinion
Hi Cesare, thank you for watching and for a good question. Your background and experience with long distance sports and cycling in general will heavily impact what will be best practice for you. How long have you been cycling, what is your typical yearly mileage, and what are the longest rides you have completed recently? Do you have ultra distance experience with other sports like running? Your target speeds are quite fast.
The context of a 2 day ride and a 20 day ride are very, very different. The 20 day ride will need to use pacing, fueling, and rest strategies that are nearly infinitely sustainable. A 2 day ride can be done aggressively by comparison. It may seem odd, but consider doing training rides each day in the week before your 720km practice ride. That way you don't begin that ride fresh and it will better emulate the fatigued state you will experience on the 20 day ride.
6 hours rest per night and hotel stops every few days may be adequate with good fueling, hydration, and proper pacing.
Hotel stops usually coincide with food resupply and 1-2 restaurant meals. Consider hotel stops valuable for hygiene too. When hiking the Appalachian and Pacific Crest Trails, we would often wash clothes while showering. Hygiene is especially valuable if you develop saddle sores or skin damage.
Rando guy here. For Pbp or Lel Re caffeine, I find myself wondering if it wouldn't be better to try to substitute cat naps for caffeine. I find that if I'm caffeinated I can't sleep when getting to controls.. dunno
For sure, caffeine is a double edged sword. When caffeinated at night, I often sleep restless and sweating. Based on typical circadian rhythms (mid-afternoon dip) and caffein half-life, I think morning caffeine use and reaching peak caffeination after lunch, then no more caffeine ingestion for the day would be a suitable strategy. At least, as long as daily distance goals can be achieved between 10pm and midnight followed by a long block of sleep. Moving forward, I will be promoting long sleep chunks instead of cat naps for those who just want to finish on time. The sleep quality is shown to be higher, and more physical recovery is made possible by deep sleep, and cat naps cut into sleep chunk time. Staying close to the sleep schedule used in regular life also will aid the transition back to normal life when the event is over. Everyone has different goals though. Cat naps and short sleep chunks would be the choice for trying to finish anything 400km and above quickly.
Sleep deprivation turns me off to the very long rides in randonneuring events.
It has little to do with exercise or fitness, and is dangerous and unpleasant.
I strongly agree with you Bart, and know many other people do as well. I've had many miserable and dangerous moments early in my time as a randonneur due to following traditional conventions. A primary reason I started this channel is to encourage a style of riding that allows randonneurs to get plenty of sleep. Maybe it is possible to reframe the norms of the sport to value sleep instead of vaunting the ability to suffer through sleep deprivation. Some types of riders will revel in that challenge no matter what, but the rest of us should be able to succeed at and enjoy sport too. Through even pacing, strong nutrition and hydration, and by using a very quick bike setup, I believe riders of modest fitness (like myself) can complete events while getting 5+ hours of sleep per night.
@@overbikedrandonneuring, thanks for the reasonable response. Agree