If they are more common in the States it is because you people have sold off your history, nobodies fault by the private gun owners. Pretty easy in Aussieland to get a license for a bolt action rifle, doesn't have much to do with government or anything like that, collector from the States buys them and they go, that's capitalism. Would have been nice for a museum to buy some up though.
In the early 2000’s aia we’re about to start making reprises of these but the price was astronomical for a newly minted tradie. I’m not sure if any were actually purchased.
The Aussies also stamped HV on barrels of their SMLEs under the rear sight. Don't know about these in particular. The reason the HV is on the buttstock is to be able to easily know what the gun is set up for.
Interesting that they would need to do that in 1944 for a cartridge that had been developed and used before the First World War. I would have thought that previous stocks of Mark I -Mark VI ammo had been depleted already.
The reason they marked them HV even late into WW2 was that there was all types of ammunition still around, such as the 303 MG rounds etc. It also assisted the armourers when they were working on different types of weapons that looked similair but weren't exactly the same.
They also repurposed rifles from police forces and private use that were converted to current standard, which included changing the sights for the mk7 Ball and marking them accordingly
A lot of No.6 rifles went into the civilian market in New Zealand. They were so popular with hunters because the bush, especially in the North Island, is so dense that even a standard SMLE is unwieldy. They are remembered for one thing especially, they kick like a pissed-off mule. I had a Polish manufactured Mosin carbine (7.62x54r) and that used to let out a flame about a foot long every time it was fired and kicked so hard that a day at the range would leave you with a solid bruise on your shoulder. That, and it was so loud that one shot without hearing protection would leave your ears ringing for the next 15 minutes. But I loved that rifle.
If you ever get the chance, Ian, you should definitely check out the museum attached to SAF Lithgow - they've got all sorts of weird and wonderful things ranging from a pair (last time I was there) of Kolibri pistols through Dardicks, a variety of early autoloaders, a number of the Austen/MCEM guns, and quite a few of these experimental SMLEs. From what I recall there was one with Bakelite furniture, too. I used to drop in from time to time when I was younger and help out where I could, the guys working there mainly had worked in the factory when they were younger and had some interesting stories to tell.
For someone like myself who isn't able to shoot these lovely weapons that appears on this channel. It would be fantastic to see a video that illustrates the different types of sights and your preferences for use from old to modern and what old technology still works better than newer technology for certain types of shooting. I hope this was a useful comment and your other audience members also would be interested in a similar concept.
P.S. Thanks Ian, for a brilliant and most informative description of some guns that sadly most Australians don't know about, let alone the rest of the World. Between you and Othias, you guys have the best historical firearms channels on the internet, even if I do joke about how "carbeens", "levvers" and "toobs" sound a bit strange to our Antipodean ears!
The "Shortened and Lightened" carbine was officially known as the "Rifle, Intermediate". There were several variants proposed / prototyped; shorter (18") barrels, different rear aperture systems, etc. Its other bayonet, which had a distinctive "bolo" blade, was the "Bayonet, Parachutist. I have seen the original factory "blueprints" / drawings for both items. The "machete" bayonet as it is sometimes incorrectly called, was to be a general-purpose took: Cutting parachute shrouds caught in trees, it made a better entrenching tool than a Patt '07 of any length and would leave quite a mark if deployed in the traditional way. It is one of the lesser-known bits of trivia that Australia developed and briefly fielded, substantial airborne forces in the South-West Pacific campaign. We also had a small number "alpine / ski" troops operating in places like Lebanon and Syria, primarily against Vichy French forces. Some pre-war ski instructors and recreational skiers got to miss out on being sent to the disease-ridden meat-grinder in New Guinea. In the development stage, the "No6" carbines were identified as. "Rifle, No1 Mk lll*, (Lightened Aust. Pattern) and the drawings are all marked thus. The other interesting thing about the "No6" carbines is that the "ladder" aperture sight was derived from the sight for the trials No. 1 Mk V design. Lithgow received the drawings package for these in the very early 1920's, but never made any. There's that "peace-dividend" again.
I absolutely LOVE that shortened SMLE with the bayo attached. I've seen "tankers" that have been made from modded SMLEs over the years but they don't compare to that beauty. The peep sight just seals the deal for me.
As a young man I regularly fired the #5 Enfield chambered .22 and used for training in marksmanship principles and indoor 25 yard ranges. It looked similar to the number 6 and was single shot only. It did not have a flash hider and the fore stock ended at the forward sling swivel, the rear sight was similar to the number4 , but graduated up to 100 yards.
I was lucky enough to purchase xp25r of the experimental smle mark 3. I'm very proud to own a very rare piece of history and when I can't keep it anymore it will be going to the Lithgow museum.
Not even the Lithgow Small Arms Museum, housing the most impressive collection of firearms in the Southern Hemisphere and which sadly gets nil funding from the Commonwealth Govt (situated at the front of the factory, which now produces Steyrs under licence from Austria) has examples of these very rare guns. Also FYI Australia (and NZ) also fielded troops during the Malaya Emergency., from which this experience was credited as being a large part of the reason why their tactics of covert guerilla jungle fighting proved so successful in Vietnam.
Why would the Commonwealth of Australia give funding to a private, for-profit business? Also, what about the National Firearms Museum of Argentina? Has to be some stiff competition for such a claim between the several other continents on that half of the world that also have gun museums.
When fighting in New Guinea, weight reduction of kit was of paramount importance to the Aussies, to the extent that even combs and toothbrushes would be cut in half. If anyone's ever climbed or seen photos of the kokoda track they'll know why. It's mountain-goat country
I've a 1916 Lithgow No. 1 MkIII. That shortened one looks awesome, like one of my other favorites, a 1906 Oberndorf Argentine cavalry carbine. Love those full length stocks.
I know the No.4 Mark 1 is the better rifle but I absolutely adore the No. 1 Mark 3. The legendary status it has from an Irish War of Independence POV aside it handles like a dream and is one of the best rifles I've had the pleasure of firing
I live in australia, and my grandfather bought a no.6 exp off the back of a truck 60 years ago for $4 (AUD) 300 were ever made, probably only about 100 left (The rest were fucked and turned into pig guns) They were primarily made to accompany pilots in cockpits, as they were tiny. I am proud to be (not yet, I'm only 14) an owner of an original
I know a guy who makes stubby no1mk3s and no4s out of sporterised guns, putting the proper nose caps and full woods on them. He asked me to test fire them and I of course immediately offered my shoulder for punishment. I was very impressed by the accuracy of them at 50 meters whilst one, a no4 savage cut down to not much over a foot, managed to hit a man sized target at 200 meters. He said they were made to emulate ones done by armourers for tank crewmen in North Africa.
I second the Owen gun request as it has a lot of historical value to Australian considering it was instrumental to stopping the invasion of Australia by Japan via the kokoda track
For such an interesting story, and a pretty good weapon with a service life of over 20 years, you have to admit the video is slim. He didn't even mention that the prototype was delivered at Bulli pub in a bag. As for a mud test, the Owen is ready. It's a good story.
Once. while competing in a High Power Rifle match, the shooter to my immediate left was using a Mosin-Nagant "carbine". The muzzle blast was absolutely insane. I had to comb my moustache after every stage.
The No. 6 Mk 1 with the aperture sight is a derivative of the No 1 Mk 5 of the early 1920s. The Mk 5 was a large-scale experiment incorporating lessons from the First Great Unpleasantness. The Small Arms Factory at Lithgow was involved in the consideration of the Mk 5 pattern being the "next generation" of Commonwealth service rifles. The drawings were supplied from Britain and for many years were on file at the factory. The Mk5 required a new receiver forging, a drawing of which was part of the package sent from Britain. This is why the Australian No. 6 Mk1 has a completely new receiver based on the No1 Mk5 and a ladder rear-sight that is VERY like that for the Mk 5. At least one of these carbines got a "second" and very short, lease of life in the early 1950s. It was used to test the possibility of producing a 'second-line" weapon to complement the "incoming" FAL / L1A1. I somehow suspect that their hearts were not really in the task. The Idea was to weld extra steel to the receiver and then mill it out to accommodate a FAL mag. Not entirely silly considering the Turks used a similar process to "recycle" a LOT of SMLEs that a bunch of rowdy tourists left behind at Gallipoli. They rebuilt them to run 7.92 x 57, and have a "sort-of" Mauser profile, as one would expect. The Oz experimenters then proceeded to test fire their new Franken-rifle with OILED proof rounds. Really; what could possibly go wrong? Well, I actually had my sticky paws in that sample, back in the late 1970's. It was BENT, metaphorically and literally. The modified receiver had NOT ruptured and the bolt had not blown out. It HAD started to stretch on the right side, but that is understandable. I suspect the idea was to achieve this result, stop messing around and concentrate on providing production of the L1A1 for EVERYBODY in all Services. When the Indians did the 2A and 2A1, they sensibly passed on trying to make it work with their clone of the FAL mag, and did a distinctly local version of the L42 style magazine (and extractor).
I have a Gibbs No.7 Jungle Carbine, built on an Ishapore 2A receiver and based roughly on an Australian prototype. Nice little carbine and one of my favorite shooters. Unfortunately, the magazine is in storage somewhere, so I need to find it soon.
I was literally just looking these up 2 days ago, they have a few different experimental designs from lithgow in the Australian War Memorial and basically every other kind of weapon that the Australian army has come across
I really enjoyed ur talk on Colt!And I`m sure many others did too.It would be appreciated if u did the same on several more of the important arms people from that era.Theres a lot of interesting characters to pick from. Thanks for uploading,though.
I grew up in Australia's Northern Territory, which has a major problem with feral water buffaloes. Back in the 60s/70s a eradication program was instigated, with the government contracting professional shooters to cull the buffalo. Many of those shooters used SMLE Jungle Carbines, or standard SMLEs that they had lightened themselves by cutting down the woodwork.
Yeah not much manufacturing in the Blue Mountains and Lithgow today but must have been a factory opened there back then during or before WW2. Fascinating. Loved your Owen et al reviews.. Like rare coins: low production runs makes for great rare collection values!
I lived in Lithgow (Lith-go) for a while in the 80s. Rumours abound that at the end of the war the LSA factory buried 1000s of these and all sorts of other equipment in a paddock. No one can tell you where but everyone knows the story! Some say even tanks & jeeps.
I was lucky enough to have a real prototype jungle carbine from Australia that i picked up from a gunshop in Prescott Valey Arizona in 1992..... and everyone said it was fake but it turned out to be a prototype like the one on the show.....serial 'Ex 017' tangent rear sight . Excellent condition. The thing that amazes me is that it was more accurate than my number 1 Mark III or number 4 Mark 1 sniper! I don't know if it was because it was custom bedded I never took it apart that far but it had a very thin custom sharp front sight it was incredibly accurate and that stunned a lot of shooters I knew because it had an undeserved reputation for not being able to hit the side of a barn.... totally false. It was a tack-driver . Love Aussie guns try to feature the Owen if possible . Thank you .
I picked up a Mk.3.3 Lee Enfeild that I think was converted to the Jungle Carbine configuration and it still shot decent with a bore that looked like it was rarely cleaned, loose sights, and when I was rushing
My grandfather has a collection of Enfield but my favourite to take out shooting was the aia m10a2 it was a lee auction but chambered 7.92x33 it was amazing at dropping roos
I'd like to point out the town of Lithgow is in the state of New South Wales, Australia. It has some interesting history in firearm manufacturing. Research it if you have the desire.
Another fantastic vid Ian - well done! You have gained another Patron supporter. Soooo, when are you going to grace our fair shores and take a look-see at the SAF Lithgow museum & others? I've got a mate that works as a curator at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra if you're ever interested in taking a look around there - I'm sure he would be only too delighted to set up a personalised tour for you if you were keen? It's a fantastic place- and well worth the trip.
Aaron HRK Yes, another Patreon joins the unit. Although this was but one of many - indeed most - past episodes that offer reason enough to prompt me to support this effort. I also appreciate the introduction to several other fine series providing thoughtful, well researched material in engaging ways. Without resorting to blowing up watermelons in slow motion. How does someone nominate Ian's contribution to the public good for a MacArthur Grant, AKA the genius awards?
Are you a member of the ACT Antique and Historic Arms Association by any chance Aaron? Our President Bob C. was the arms curator at the AWM for many years...
i was in the army cadets in sydney australia in the early 70's and our school science teacher was a veitnam vet he had the short 303 at the top with the flash suppressor thanks for the memories .grant /Australia
Love the furniture on the first conversion. The Australians have some great arsenal and other marks on the butt. My 1917 Mk III* has both British and Australian marks that add to its history. If only it could talk....
Good lord, $10,000-20,000 expected for these rifles? I know they're rare and all, that just seems crazy for an Enfield haha. Very cool video! Having just recently bought a No1 MkIII*, I'm really enjoying all your videos on its many variants.
HV - High velocity, means the sights were graduated for the mk 7 ball ammo. was marked on the buttstock and barrel well as SC for "short cone" behind the rear sight. when mk 7 ammo was adopted everything was converted from mk6 during ww1 and stamped accorsingly (which is why 1915 and 1916 lithgows are so hard to find in australia, being sent to england for modification while troops were issued english rifles as replacements), so it was still the manufacturing practice. i know ww1 was long gone by 1944, but there were still plenty of rifles in private hands and state police services that had lee enfield shooting mk7 ammo, but sights still graduated for mk6 ammo, so still relevent
Well, never knew this, very interesting Ian, & yes I'm an Aussie; they did play around with a .303 but in the size of an SMG, i don't think it ever kicked off?! I have seen the prototype at Singelton Army Base, they have a small arms museum, good collection considering its size; cheers mate.
HV stands for High Velocity. The HV is usually found on the Sniper rifle version of the SMLE being that the sniper rifle version has more than just a scope it also has a heavier than usual barrel. In fact if you could have removed the rear hand guard there'd have no doubt been a H stamped on the barrel. H being for heavy barrel. The Sniper versions had heavy barrels due to the high velocity rounds used. I'd say that jungle carbine had previously been a sniper rifle.
These were what everyone was looking for in the 80's at your local fishing and gun stores....you had to be fast when they came in stock as were always snapped up instantly😎🇦🇺
the two shorter carabines displayed here also seem to have slightly different "semi-pistol grip wooden stock thingies", in terms of them being more or less angular or rounded; and it's not just differential use between the two gun's stocks...
Models are incorrectly identified here... Shortened & Lightened (XP1-XP100) was never trialled, likely intended for small storage space on AFVs. The No.6 Mk I is the bed backsight model (serial nos. XP101- XP200) and Mk I/I (serial nos. XP 201- XP300) has a No.5 style folding aperture rearsight. XP8 shown here was a toolroom sample, hence an out-of-sequence serial no. that is wrongly in the same range as the Shortened Lightened rifle models. Check out 'The Lee-Enfield' pp 347-351, 498-502. [ids]
Yes mate, it is really me. Starting a TH-cam channel now, will incorporate more firearms as well as my other projects. Subscribe if you like it and I'll post more!
Thanks Ian, have asked before in comment section about bayonet & sheath. Been asking around Queensland to no answers other than Ipswich had a military weekend last weekend but was unavailable to attend. Will show my father this video and see if his collection matches up. Doesn't help that some gun store's I asked about closed 15 years ago...
I think you might find that the bayonet for the Owen and the carbine may be the same as a kid in the late sixties I remember my father having a bayonet identical to a 1907 pattern but shorter, I also remember a machete style bayonet. It may have been an M1942
I remember decades ago ads from Gibbs Rifle Company making a "Jungle Carbine" in 308. I think they even had some that were electroless plated(?) for wet weather conditions.
Aaaah Lee Enfield. For years everyone overlooks these beautiful rifles, then C&Rsenal, Britishmuzzleloaders and now Forgotten weapons spoil us all for choice within a very short time span. Great!
Good weight savings. Great ideas. I heard in a documentary somewhere that the No. 5's gave good service in Malaya, and the Brits gave a lot of them to that nation. Was also claimex that they did not experience the wandering zero problem, or did to a lesser extent. On another of these videos, someone speculated it could be due to inconsistent burning of Cordite. Good thought. I would thing as long as the receiver is not flexing, not moving in the stock, the sights are tight and don't shift, and the barrel is ok, u should be fine. I wonder if a little judicious glass bedding would solve it? Was the recoil lug any different?
Ian- The "HV" stamped on the stock of the rifle stands for "High Velocity", to say that it's been made and sighted for Mk7 ammunition, which was a higher velocity than the previous Mk6. There should also be a "HVSC" stamp on the barrel for "High Velocity, Short Cone", again referring to the Mk7 round. Also, the "date stamp" of 12/44 I believe it is not a date stamp, but a racking/storage number. Not entirely sure as to how to decode it, but it's definitely not a date stamp.
Based on old photographs in books and museums, I believe these excellent jungle warfare weapons were issued to Commonwealth Armed forces, Federation Armed forces and the Jungle Police Force during the 12 official years of the Malayan Emergency 1948 1965 era. Thank you for the techno techie stuff. Quo vadis.
Canada just doesn't have the incentive to design a jungle rifle. Australia on the other hand, found out the hard way that South East Asia is essential to its security, and most of SEA is tropics/jungle.
The old Smelly was never a beauty queen, but these get closer. I learned to shoot on a Lithgow 43 and it stood me in good stead, because nothing was ever quite as intimidating for a 12 year old shooter once we came to terms with each other. Until dad snuck a solid round in the tube after three bird shot cartridges first time I tried a 12 guauge pumpy way back when they were legal. Hilarious.
Wish that I still had MY collection of .303s, I had a Mark 3(Right Hand Marker with matching Serial Numbered Bayonet) a Martini Enfield Carbine (1901) and a Jungle Carbine!!
HV stamp means that the rifles sights are calibrated for Mk7 Ball ammunition rather than Mk6 Ball. Mk6 Ball was in use before WW1 and the entire commonwealth switched to Mk7 Ball for the Great war. They stamped HV into the rifles so that if a large amount of troops needed to be armed in a short time they could tell if the rifle was the current standard. The difference in the two designs are that Mk6 Ball was a 215 grain Cupro-nickel round nose bullet and Mk7 Ball was a 174 grain copper jacketed spitzer bullet.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British
"Sight radius too short". That hits close to home. I did a front end job on an AK. The gas block was changed out to a gas block/front sight combo while the rear sight was unchanged, leading to a sight radius about half as long as the original. Hard to hit anything with that setup with my old eyes. I had to put a Kalinka PK-A RDS to get any accuracy.
Great talk. Would also like to hear about the bayonets, especially for the experimental/trial shortened SMLE. Apparently these look like Owen smg bayonets except they don't have all the proof marks for the Owen 10" bayonet..
Great video Ian....nice to see some Australian gear being shown. I also liked your Owen gun review from a few years back. Your well researched approach and encyclopedic knowledge is to be admired. By the way, Lithgow is pronounced 'Lith-go'. Just a heads up for next time :)
Lovely little weapons...I ran into one in a gunshop in the low veldt...and was quite excited...guy let me handle it, definitely suitable for feral pig shooting being very fast to the shoulder, good sight picture, all in all ? Spot on...except they were a bit greedy. I settled for an old 12 bore, short, light, kicked like a bloody mule but it was almost free... Shame...
Sadly true...I have 10 and it's just not enough. I still don;t have an unmodified SMLE, or WW I examples from BSA and LSA, and a BSA No. 4....you get the idea. I need a BSA No. 5 to go with my Fanzy model and (yeah right) a .308 conversion and a sniper No. 4 and....
hi IAN I had one with the rubber butt .I was 16 and swapped it for a semi auto 44mag ruger carbine . In AUST we used the SMLE in school cadets. But now days the gun laws are utter shit in Australia . Great channel keep up the good work . Regards from Australia
They absolutely are Boris. My rifle club used to hold a day where Aust Army cadets could come and shoot SMLEs (since they only get to use .22s maybe a couple of times a year) but they're not even allowed to do that now. Fortunately we can still own these old milsurps (well, for now lol)
It’s a pity these weren’t manufactured. Australia was committed to the Malayan Emergency from 1950 to 1963 and jungle carbines would have come in very handy indeed.
I would love to see a video on the AIA M10. These are an obscure rifle made by Australian International Arms in the image of these rifles, but in modern calibers 7.62x39 (M10A2) and 7.62 NATO (M10B2).
Whats sad is there is a good chance more of these exist in america than australia , lost history thanks for keeping it alive for us!
If they are more common in the States it is because you people have sold off your history, nobodies fault by the private gun owners. Pretty easy in Aussieland to get a license for a bolt action rifle, doesn't have much to do with government or anything like that, collector from the States buys them and they go, that's capitalism. Would have been nice for a museum to buy some up though.
bitterman co it’s pretty easy, just be a part of a club
In the early 2000’s aia we’re about to start making reprises of these but the price was astronomical for a newly minted tradie. I’m not sure if any were actually purchased.
I think Ian does a super job of presenting information.
The HV stands for High Velocity. It means the sights are set up for the MKVII round instead of the MKVI.
The Aussies also stamped HV on barrels of their SMLEs under the rear sight. Don't know about these in particular. The reason the HV is on the buttstock is to be able to easily know what the gun is set up for.
Interesting that they would need to do that in 1944 for a cartridge that had been developed and used before the First World War. I would have thought that previous stocks of Mark I -Mark VI ammo had been depleted already.
Correct.
The reason they marked them HV even late into WW2 was that there was all types of ammunition still around, such as the 303 MG rounds etc. It also assisted the armourers when they were working on different types of weapons that looked similair but weren't exactly the same.
They also repurposed rifles from police forces and private use that were converted to current standard, which included changing the sights for the mk7 Ball and marking them accordingly
A lot of No.6 rifles went into the civilian market in New Zealand. They were so popular with hunters because the bush, especially in the North Island, is so dense that even a standard SMLE is unwieldy. They are remembered for one thing especially, they kick like a pissed-off mule.
I had a Polish manufactured Mosin carbine (7.62x54r) and that used to let out a flame about a foot long every time it was fired and kicked so hard that a day at the range would leave you with a solid bruise on your shoulder. That, and it was so loud that one shot without hearing protection would leave your ears ringing for the next 15 minutes. But I loved that rifle.
Yeah! Finally some Aussie stuff. Cheers Ian!
I'm Australian are you if not that's fine
If you ever get the chance, Ian, you should definitely check out the museum attached to SAF Lithgow - they've got all sorts of weird and wonderful things ranging from a pair (last time I was there) of Kolibri pistols through Dardicks, a variety of early autoloaders, a number of the Austen/MCEM guns, and quite a few of these experimental SMLEs. From what I recall there was one with Bakelite furniture, too.
I used to drop in from time to time when I was younger and help out where I could, the guys working there mainly had worked in the factory when they were younger and had some interesting stories to tell.
Greetings from the land of Oz , nice to see Aussie guns getting some love.
One of my favorite rifles. Just looks badass
For someone like myself who isn't able to shoot these lovely weapons that appears on this channel. It would be fantastic to see a video that illustrates the different types of sights and your preferences for use from old to modern and what old technology still works better than newer technology for certain types of shooting. I hope this was a useful comment and your other audience members also would be interested in a similar concept.
P.S. Thanks Ian, for a brilliant and most informative description of some guns that sadly most Australians don't know about, let alone the rest of the World. Between you and Othias, you guys have the best historical firearms channels on the internet, even if I do joke about how "carbeens", "levvers" and "toobs" sound a bit strange to our Antipodean ears!
The "Shortened and Lightened" carbine was officially known as the "Rifle, Intermediate". There were several variants proposed / prototyped; shorter (18") barrels, different rear aperture systems, etc. Its other bayonet, which had a distinctive "bolo" blade, was the "Bayonet, Parachutist. I have seen the original factory "blueprints" / drawings for both items. The "machete" bayonet as it is sometimes incorrectly called, was to be a general-purpose took: Cutting parachute shrouds caught in trees, it made a better entrenching tool than a Patt '07 of any length and would leave quite a mark if deployed in the traditional way.
It is one of the lesser-known bits of trivia that Australia developed and briefly fielded, substantial airborne forces in the South-West Pacific campaign. We also had a small number "alpine / ski" troops operating in places like Lebanon and Syria, primarily against Vichy French forces. Some pre-war ski instructors and recreational skiers got to miss out on being sent to the disease-ridden meat-grinder in New Guinea.
In the development stage, the "No6" carbines were identified as. "Rifle, No1 Mk lll*, (Lightened Aust. Pattern) and the drawings are all marked thus. The other interesting thing about the "No6" carbines is that the "ladder" aperture sight was derived from the sight for the trials No. 1 Mk V design. Lithgow received the drawings package for these in the very early 1920's, but never made any. There's that "peace-dividend" again.
I absolutely LOVE that shortened SMLE with the bayo attached. I've seen "tankers" that have been made from modded SMLEs over the years but they don't compare to that beauty. The peep sight just seals the deal for me.
As a young man I regularly fired the #5 Enfield chambered .22 and used for training in marksmanship principles and indoor 25 yard ranges. It looked similar to the number 6 and was single shot only. It did not have a flash hider and the fore stock ended at the forward sling swivel, the rear sight was similar to the number4 , but graduated up to 100 yards.
I used them too, they were actually No8's, specially made cadet rifles.
Once again thank you very much Ian. As an Aussie and ex-Australian Army I found this extremely interesting!
I was lucky enough to purchase xp25r of the experimental smle mark 3. I'm very proud to own a very rare piece of history and when I can't keep it anymore it will be going to the Lithgow museum.
Not even the Lithgow Small Arms Museum, housing the most impressive collection of firearms in the Southern Hemisphere and which sadly gets nil funding from the Commonwealth Govt (situated at the front of the factory, which now produces Steyrs under licence from Austria) has examples of these very rare guns.
Also FYI Australia (and NZ) also fielded troops during the Malaya Emergency., from which this experience was credited as being a large part of the reason why their tactics of covert guerilla jungle fighting proved so successful in Vietnam.
Lithgow are making our new F90 Steyrs that we've adopted recently, such a cool place, hope it lives on throughout the rest of the 21st century.
Why would the Commonwealth of Australia give funding to a private, for-profit business? Also, what about the National Firearms Museum of Argentina? Has to be some stiff competition for such a claim between the several other continents on that half of the world that also have gun museums.
@@Lowlandlord They tend to not help private enterprise unless it is farming. It wasn't that long ago Abbott killed the auto industry off.
Try the Military Small Arms Museum in Singleton, they have everything, it's in the military base at Singleton.
@@timmcphee3045 that was labour and the unions forcing manufacturers to pay people more than they're worth driving manufacturing into the dirt
When fighting in New Guinea, weight reduction of kit was of paramount importance to the Aussies, to the extent that even combs and toothbrushes would be cut in half. If anyone's ever climbed or seen photos of the kokoda track they'll know why. It's mountain-goat country
Great to see some Australian rifles here. The SMLE has a huge place in our Military history.
I've a 1916 Lithgow No. 1 MkIII. That shortened one looks awesome, like one of my other favorites, a 1906 Oberndorf Argentine cavalry carbine. Love those full length stocks.
Glad to see these Aussie rifles made it home. The land of opportunity for all rifles. #AussieRiflesMatter. Chuck em in the ute mate!
I know the No.4 Mark 1 is the better rifle but I absolutely adore the No. 1 Mark 3. The legendary status it has from an Irish War of Independence POV aside it handles like a dream and is one of the best rifles I've had the pleasure of firing
I live in australia, and my grandfather bought a no.6 exp off the back of a truck 60 years ago for $4 (AUD)
300 were ever made, probably only about 100 left (The rest were fucked and turned into pig guns)
They were primarily made to accompany pilots in cockpits, as they were tiny.
I am proud to be (not yet, I'm only 14) an owner of an original
stacking swivel, I am all ways learning something from your videos. keep up the good work
I know a guy who makes stubby no1mk3s and no4s out of sporterised guns, putting the proper nose caps and full woods on them. He asked me to test fire them and I of course immediately offered my shoulder for punishment. I was very impressed by the accuracy of them at 50 meters whilst one, a no4 savage cut down to not much over a foot, managed to hit a man sized target at 200 meters. He said they were made to emulate ones done by armourers for tank crewmen in North Africa.
Pronounce Lithgow without the "w", just "go". Be interesting to see an Owen smg one day.
I second the Owen gun request as it has a lot of historical value to Australian considering it was instrumental to stopping the invasion of Australia by Japan via the kokoda track
Pretty sure there is already a forgotten weapons vid on one.
That video is four years old and examines the gun out in the field for 60 seconds! Need a modern version.
For such an interesting story, and a pretty good weapon with a service life of over 20 years, you have to admit the video is slim. He didn't even mention that the prototype was delivered at Bulli pub in a bag. As for a mud test, the Owen is ready. It's a good story.
Need more modern field tests!
Once. while competing in a High Power Rifle match, the shooter to my immediate left was using a Mosin-Nagant "carbine". The muzzle blast was absolutely insane. I had to comb my moustache after every stage.
Yes! Gun jesus uploads again!
cyrus davirus I would assume so. They appear to have the same lightening cuts in the receivers as the problematic #5
dbmail545 Are you on drugs? Your reply has nothing to do with his comment...
Plus the Ishapore commercial Tanker and Jungle Carbines in 7.62mm. These are good shooters. Very similar to these. Thanks for the videos.
The No. 6 Mk 1 with the aperture sight is a derivative of the No 1 Mk 5 of the early 1920s.
The Mk 5 was a large-scale experiment incorporating lessons from the First Great Unpleasantness. The Small Arms Factory at Lithgow was involved in the consideration of the Mk 5 pattern being the "next generation" of Commonwealth service rifles. The drawings were supplied from Britain and for many years were on file at the factory. The Mk5 required a new receiver forging, a drawing of which was part of the package sent from Britain.
This is why the Australian No. 6 Mk1 has a completely new receiver based on the No1 Mk5 and a ladder rear-sight that is VERY like that for the Mk 5.
At least one of these carbines got a "second" and very short, lease of life in the early 1950s. It was used to test the possibility of producing a 'second-line" weapon to complement the "incoming" FAL / L1A1. I somehow suspect that their hearts were not really in the task.
The Idea was to weld extra steel to the receiver and then mill it out to accommodate a FAL mag. Not entirely silly considering the Turks used a similar process to "recycle" a LOT of SMLEs that a bunch of rowdy tourists left behind at Gallipoli. They rebuilt them to run 7.92 x 57, and have a "sort-of" Mauser profile, as one would expect.
The Oz experimenters then proceeded to test fire their new Franken-rifle with OILED proof rounds. Really; what could possibly go wrong?
Well, I actually had my sticky paws in that sample, back in the late 1970's. It was BENT, metaphorically and literally.
The modified receiver had NOT ruptured and the bolt had not blown out. It HAD started to stretch on the right side, but that is understandable.
I suspect the idea was to achieve this result, stop messing around and concentrate on providing production of the L1A1 for EVERYBODY in all Services.
When the Indians did the 2A and 2A1, they sensibly passed on trying to make it work with their clone of the FAL mag, and did a distinctly local version of the L42 style magazine (and extractor).
I have a Gibbs No.7 Jungle Carbine, built on an Ishapore 2A receiver and based roughly on an Australian prototype. Nice little carbine and one of my favorite shooters. Unfortunately, the magazine is in storage somewhere, so I need to find it soon.
I was literally just looking these up 2 days ago, they have a few different experimental designs from lithgow in the Australian War Memorial and basically every other kind of weapon that the Australian army has come across
love it mate keep up the great work as a Aussie I own a number 5 jungle carbine it's my favorite pig hunting rifle
I really enjoyed ur talk on Colt!And I`m sure many others did too.It would be appreciated if u did the same on several more of the important arms people from that era.Theres a lot of interesting characters to pick from.
Thanks for uploading,though.
Jungle carbine makes a great car/truck gun. Those full size Enfields were 75.00$ in shotgun news 20 years ago when i was a kid, made great gifts.
So tell me, how effective are these against Emus?
probably works better than against Drop Bears...
blackmesa232323 Better or worse than a Lewis gun?
blackmesa232323 Not effective. That's why we lost!
Just make sure you don't miss , mad Emu's are very dangerous....
weapons of the third emu war
I grew up in Australia's Northern Territory, which has a major problem with feral water buffaloes. Back in the 60s/70s a eradication program was instigated, with the government contracting professional shooters to cull the buffalo. Many of those shooters used SMLE Jungle Carbines, or standard SMLEs that they had lightened themselves by cutting down the woodwork.
Yeah not much manufacturing in the Blue Mountains and Lithgow today but must have been a factory opened there back then during or before WW2. Fascinating. Loved your Owen et al reviews.. Like rare coins: low production runs makes for great rare collection values!
I lived in Lithgow (Lith-go) for a while in the 80s. Rumours abound that at the end of the war the LSA factory buried 1000s of these and all sorts of other equipment in a paddock. No one can tell you where but everyone knows the story! Some say even tanks & jeeps.
They were buried in an old gold mine at Tommingly near Dubbo.
I was lucky enough to have a real prototype jungle carbine from Australia that i picked up from a gunshop in Prescott Valey Arizona in 1992..... and everyone said it was fake but it turned out to be a prototype like the one on the show.....serial 'Ex 017' tangent rear sight . Excellent condition.
The thing that amazes me is that it was more accurate than my number 1 Mark III or number 4 Mark 1 sniper! I don't know if it was because it was custom bedded I never took it apart that far but it had a very thin custom sharp front sight it was incredibly accurate and that stunned a lot of shooters I knew because it had an undeserved reputation for not being able to hit the side of a barn.... totally false. It was a tack-driver .
Love Aussie guns try to feature the Owen if possible . Thank you .
I picked up a Mk.3.3 Lee Enfeild that I think was converted to the Jungle Carbine configuration and it still shot decent with a bore that looked like it was rarely cleaned, loose sights, and when I was rushing
Those are some interesting models, the barrel on those two reminds me of the barrel on a Bren.
If it wasn't for the 303 we'll be eating with chop sticks 🤣,quote from Mr Reliable (Colin Freills)
My grandfather has a collection of Enfield but my favourite to take out shooting was the aia m10a2 it was a lee auction but chambered 7.92x33 it was amazing at dropping roos
That shortened smle looks nice
nice to see an Australian rifle
I'd like to point out the town of Lithgow is in the state of New South Wales, Australia.
It has some interesting history in firearm manufacturing.
Research it if you have the desire.
HV usually stands for high velocity ,sighted for the MK V 11 ball.
I own a heavyweight Australian Lithgow SMLE. It was developed by Navy Arms and chambered in 45-70 Government.
My family used to own a Mk 2 1918 Lithgow SMLE. Stock changed to kevlar and Tasco scope added.
Ha, unique and cool.
Another fantastic vid Ian - well done! You have gained another Patron supporter.
Soooo, when are you going to grace our fair shores and take a look-see at the SAF Lithgow museum & others?
I've got a mate that works as a curator at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra if you're ever interested in taking a look around there - I'm sure he would be only too delighted to set up a personalised tour for you if you were keen? It's a fantastic place- and well worth the trip.
Aaron HRK
Yes, another Patreon joins the unit. Although this was but one of many - indeed most - past episodes that offer reason enough to prompt me to support this effort.
I also appreciate the introduction to several other fine series providing thoughtful, well researched material in engaging ways. Without resorting to blowing up watermelons in slow motion.
How does someone nominate Ian's contribution to the public good for a MacArthur Grant, AKA the genius awards?
Aaron HRK I do volunteer guiding at the AWM also
Are you a member of the ACT Antique and Historic Arms Association by any chance Aaron? Our President Bob C. was the arms curator at the AWM for many years...
your videos are awsome and informative keep it up
greetings from Greece
THAT'S NOT A KNIFE!
deathweapon247 That's a spoon
One of the best Simpsons lines ever. Thank you, you two. Thank you.
Thats a naaiiiif! noice, isnt it?
no
its a bayonet
paul lytle actually it's a storm drain
i was in the army cadets in sydney australia in the early 70's and our school science teacher was a veitnam vet he had the short 303 at the top with the flash suppressor thanks for the memories .grant /Australia
Love the furniture on the first conversion. The Australians have some great arsenal and other marks on the butt. My 1917 Mk III* has both British and Australian marks that add to its history. If only it could talk....
Good lord, $10,000-20,000 expected for these rifles? I know they're rare and all, that just seems crazy for an Enfield haha. Very cool video! Having just recently bought a No1 MkIII*, I'm really enjoying all your videos on its many variants.
HV - High velocity, means the sights were graduated for the mk 7 ball ammo. was marked on the buttstock and barrel well as SC for "short cone" behind the rear sight. when mk 7 ammo was adopted everything was converted from mk6 during ww1 and stamped accorsingly (which is why 1915 and 1916 lithgows are so hard to find in australia, being sent to england for modification while troops were issued english rifles as replacements), so it was still the manufacturing practice. i know ww1 was long gone by 1944, but there were still plenty of rifles in private hands and state police services that had lee enfield shooting mk7 ammo, but sights still graduated for mk6 ammo, so still relevent
I recall a firm in Quebec that was selling #4s converted to .410. wish I'd bought one back then.
Well, never knew this, very interesting Ian, & yes I'm an Aussie; they did play around with a .303 but in the size of an SMG, i don't think it ever kicked off?! I have seen the prototype at Singelton Army Base, they have a small arms museum, good collection considering its size; cheers mate.
HV stands for High Velocity. The HV is usually found on the Sniper rifle version of the SMLE being that the sniper rifle version has more than just a scope it also has a heavier than usual barrel. In fact if you could have removed the rear hand guard there'd have no doubt been a H stamped on the barrel. H being for heavy barrel. The Sniper versions had heavy barrels due to the high velocity rounds used. I'd say that jungle carbine had previously been a sniper rifle.
Thanks for the vids Ian.
FYI :- It's 'Lith-go' rather than 'Lith-gow' .. despite the spelling.
Keep up the great work.
These were what everyone was looking for in the 80's at your local fishing and gun stores....you had to be fast when they came in stock as were always snapped up instantly😎🇦🇺
My brain wants to read SMILE instead of SMLE ^^
aldi404 I can help with that. Say "SMLE" out loud several times and your brain will forever recognize it as "Smelly".
aldi404 "smile" was a common nickname for them when I was a kid. Smle's were cheap and surplus ammo plentiful.
aldi404 a smle makes me smile
It's both dude.
The most interesting and informative military firearm channel on TH-cam.
I like the shortened smle the best because it still has that traditional "British 303" look.
I'd love to have an 18 inch version of it.
the two shorter carabines displayed here also seem to have slightly different "semi-pistol grip wooden stock thingies", in terms of them being more or less angular or rounded; and it's not just differential use between the two gun's stocks...
Models are incorrectly identified here... Shortened & Lightened (XP1-XP100) was never trialled, likely intended for small storage space on AFVs.
The No.6 Mk I is the bed backsight model (serial nos. XP101- XP200) and Mk I/I (serial nos. XP 201- XP300) has a No.5 style folding aperture rearsight.
XP8 shown here was a toolroom sample, hence an out-of-sequence serial no. that is wrongly in the same range as the Shortened Lightened rifle models.
Check out 'The Lee-Enfield' pp 347-351, 498-502. [ids]
Yes mate, it is really me. Starting a TH-cam channel now, will incorporate more firearms as well as my other projects.
Subscribe if you like it and I'll post more!
@@ianskennerton14 THIS.... now this is something I need right now while I'm in self-isolation!
The Lee Enfield God communicated to Gun Jesus.... this is why the internet was invented.
Thanks Ian, have asked before in comment section about bayonet & sheath. Been asking around Queensland to no answers other than Ipswich had a military weekend last weekend but was unavailable to attend. Will show my father this video and see if his collection matches up. Doesn't help that some gun store's I asked about closed 15 years ago...
I think you might find that the bayonet for the Owen and the carbine may be the same as a kid in the late sixties I remember my father having a bayonet identical to a 1907 pattern but shorter, I also remember a machete style bayonet. It may have been an M1942
I remember decades ago ads from Gibbs Rifle Company making a "Jungle Carbine" in 308. I think they even had some that were electroless plated(?) for wet weather conditions.
Aaaah Lee Enfield. For years everyone overlooks these beautiful rifles, then C&Rsenal, Britishmuzzleloaders and now Forgotten weapons spoil us all for choice within a very short time span. Great!
Good weight savings. Great ideas. I heard in a documentary somewhere that the No. 5's gave good service in Malaya, and the Brits gave a lot of them to that nation. Was also claimex that they did not experience the wandering zero problem, or did to a lesser extent. On another of these videos, someone speculated it could be due to inconsistent burning of Cordite. Good thought. I would thing as long as the receiver is not flexing, not moving in the stock, the sights are tight and don't shift, and the barrel is ok, u should be fine. I wonder if a little judicious glass bedding would solve it? Was the recoil lug any different?
Ian- The "HV" stamped on the stock of the rifle stands for "High Velocity", to say that it's been made and sighted for Mk7 ammunition, which was a higher velocity than the previous Mk6. There should also be a "HVSC" stamp on the barrel for "High Velocity, Short Cone", again referring to the Mk7 round.
Also, the "date stamp" of 12/44 I believe it is not a date stamp, but a racking/storage number. Not entirely sure as to how to decode it, but it's definitely not a date stamp.
I have a 1944 Lithgow with the MK III sights. Very rare to find an Australian Jungle Carbine.
Ian, for future documentation. Lithgow, is pronounced:
"lith-GO".
Based on old photographs in books and museums, I believe these excellent jungle warfare weapons were issued to Commonwealth Armed forces, Federation Armed forces and the Jungle Police Force during the 12 official years of the Malayan Emergency 1948 1965 era.
Thank you for the techno techie stuff.
Quo vadis.
Sadly we didn’t get these in Kokoda, I’ve been there and all the rifles where clearly not built for that climate on either side
Never seen this channel before but the moment I seen flags on the videos I went straight for Australia.
Nice footage of the sights in this one!
May your swords stay sharp! (mysss29) and may your pommel fly
"Canada's experiments would end up dissolving into nothing.." That is so true for so many Canadian engineering/initiative, its sad.
Really? I though Canada was good at new ideas and experiments
Canada just doesn't have the incentive to design a jungle rifle. Australia on the other hand, found out the hard way that South East Asia is essential to its security, and most of SEA is tropics/jungle.
M1 Garand wants to know your location
The old Smelly was never a beauty queen, but these get closer.
I learned to shoot on a Lithgow 43 and it stood me in good stead, because nothing was ever quite as intimidating for a 12 year old shooter once we came to terms with each other.
Until dad snuck a solid round in the tube after three bird shot cartridges first time I tried a 12 guauge pumpy way back when they were legal.
Hilarious.
Wish that I still had MY collection of .303s, I had a Mark 3(Right Hand Marker with matching Serial Numbered Bayonet) a Martini Enfield Carbine (1901) and a Jungle Carbine!!
HV stamp means that the rifles sights are calibrated for Mk7 Ball ammunition rather than Mk6 Ball. Mk6 Ball was in use before WW1 and the entire commonwealth switched to Mk7 Ball for the Great war. They stamped HV into the rifles so that if a large amount of troops needed to be armed in a short time they could tell if the rifle was the current standard. The difference in the two designs are that Mk6 Ball was a 215 grain Cupro-nickel round nose bullet and Mk7 Ball was a 174 grain copper jacketed spitzer bullet.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British
Looks like they also changed the cocking pieces for No.4 pattern vertical ones as opposed to the circular ones from the SMLE....
HV is for high velocity. I have a 1916 BSA that went back to lithgow in 43 and it stamped the same
"Sight radius too short". That hits close to home. I did a front end job on an AK. The gas block was changed out to a gas block/front sight combo while the rear sight was unchanged, leading to a sight radius about half as long as the original. Hard to hit anything with that setup with my old eyes. I had to put a Kalinka PK-A RDS to get any accuracy.
Interesting history. thanks for the video.
Great talk. Would also like to hear about the bayonets, especially for the experimental/trial shortened SMLE. Apparently these look like Owen smg bayonets except they don't have all the proof marks for the Owen 10" bayonet..
If only we had these in the emu wars, those lmgs were too inaccurate
I would really like to see you shoot and compare these with the British no5 Jungle Carbine.
Im absolutely in love with that shortened full wood SMLE! 🥰 that would make a perfect scrub gun for pigs in NSW !
The protective ears for the front sight is from the Bren.
Great video Ian....nice to see some Australian gear being shown. I also liked your Owen gun review from a few years back. Your well researched approach and encyclopedic knowledge is to be admired.
By the way, Lithgow is pronounced 'Lith-go'. Just a heads up for next time :)
Well done...from an Aussie
HV means that it is sighted for high velocity ammunition
Lovely little weapons...I ran into one in a gunshop in the low veldt...and was quite excited...guy let me handle it, definitely suitable for feral pig shooting being very fast to the shoulder, good sight picture, all in all ? Spot on...except they were a bit greedy.
I settled for an old 12 bore, short, light, kicked like a bloody mule but it was almost free...
Shame...
Having fired a rubber butted Jungle carbine, I would say it is the most painful rifle i have ever fired. I flinched every time I fired it!.
So many enfield's so little time.
Sadly true...I have 10 and it's just not enough. I still don;t have an unmodified SMLE, or WW I examples from BSA and LSA, and a BSA No. 4....you get the idea. I need a BSA No. 5 to go with my Fanzy model and (yeah right) a .308 conversion and a sniper No. 4 and....
That No1 Mk 3 looks like a brand new rifle.
hi IAN I had one with the rubber butt .I was 16 and swapped it for a semi auto 44mag ruger carbine . In AUST we used the SMLE in school cadets. But now days the gun laws are utter shit in Australia . Great channel keep up the good work . Regards from Australia
They absolutely are Boris. My rifle club used to hold a day where Aust Army cadets could come and shoot SMLEs (since they only get to use .22s maybe a couple of times a year) but they're not even allowed to do that now.
Fortunately we can still own these old milsurps (well, for now lol)
It’s a pity these weren’t manufactured. Australia was committed to the Malayan Emergency from 1950 to 1963 and jungle carbines would have come in very handy indeed.
Cool Aussie rifle
I would love to see a video on the AIA M10. These are an obscure rifle made by Australian International Arms in the image of these rifles, but in modern calibers 7.62x39 (M10A2) and 7.62 NATO (M10B2).
i kind of want to build my own aus le en short trying out that 18 inch barrel idea