yeah, showed us "receipts" but they could have been from anywhere, for anything. She still offered no proof of her claims. I've eviscerated her arguments else where in these comments, not going to bother doing it again.
@@gregoryamato8693 read that again mister. I wrote "in these comments" which is different from "the thread." Explore further in the comments section, and unless you are choosing to not see it you will.
I know I'm late to this video, but this is really insightful into things into things I didn't notice the first time I read The Witcher books, but I cant help see every time I re-read. Now, standard disclaimer before I continue, there are problematic aspects of the stories in The Last Wish and The Sword of Destiny. Context doesn't make any of these aspects okay, but it does explain the jarring change in the writing once you hit The Sword of Destiny short story. I've actually gone down a bit of a rabbit hole on this and found a bit of context for why these two sets of stories are so different from the main series, and indeed, why the last two stories here are significantly less problematic. When Sapkowski original wrote most of these stories they were written in fantasy magazines for what I'm going to loosely (and somewhat inaccurately) describe as "nerds living in their mother's basements in the early 90s in eastern Europe." Sapkowski was not successful yet, and it seems like he took notice that the stories that would sell to these magazine were very sexist and heavy in sex scenes since the readers had little to no interactions with women and subsequently tended to objectify them. The character of Geralt was partially created for the people reading the book to feel like the outcasts of the society could get all the girls. This is similar to how the other popular and powerful men in these stories are often described as lacking in intelligence and are often taken down by Geralt as the outcast. The change comes from the fact that with the commercial success of The Last Wish, Sapkowski felt that he could write a true series of novels in this world. The two stories you note here as being notably less sexist are actually the only two first published in the book itself instead of magazines, as setups for the true book series. That change carries through The Blood of Elves and the rest of the main Saga. We even get excellent character like Milva, whom are used to actually call out the sexism in the past stories in some ways. It really seems to have come down to the confidence to be able to sell stories based on being a good writer rather than sex appeal. Again that doesn't make it okay, or any less problematic, but I think the context is interesting if nothing else.
Milva is awesome but I also love Meve and her contrast to Demavend (who may, or may not be a reference how polish leaders fled the country after german invasion during WWII). Badass female leader fighting from the frontline while her neighbour and supposed ally loses his entire kingdom before fleeing to beg for help
Thanks for not hating me lol. I think as we get older it gets easier to admit the things we love have flaws. I know there are some series that I just die-hard defended in my youth and can now say "hey, I absolutely love this series, but...I get what you're saying".
@@Bookborn Discussions also tend to be more interesting and beneficial for the people involved if we can take an objective view and not just say "this is perfect" or "it's complete crap". I'm very open to new point of views differing from mine because I love to broaden my own views! Like I always say: the goal of a debate isn't to win, the goal is to share information and ultimately get out of the debate with a better understanding of whatever the debate was about.
@@MetalCharlo YES I couldn't agree more. When people go into a debate willing to be understanding and not with the attitude "my way or the highway", a lot can be accomplished.
Is it really a problem or is it just something you don't like? There's a big difference between believing something is a problem and just not liking it. For instance, I'm not that big on reality TV because I personally find it boring as fuck. Do I think it's a problem though? No, it's just something I'm not particularly interested in. 'Problems' of this sort are subjective and what may be a problem to you may not be a problem to someone else.
Outstanding video. I'm a father, brother, and a fiction writer and this video brings a lot of insight. Thank you for speaking out and standing up for yourself so publicly.
I would be interested to hear what you think about Ciri's story in The Lady of The Lake... If you ever continue reading these books that is. Geralt being a bit of a horny boi at certain stages of his life was something I didn't even fully realize before, but these short stories were probably influenced by stuff like Conan the Barbarian etc.
It's really hard to talk about this subject without people feeling defensive. I think you've done a wonderful job of laying out the issues with the writing and I hope people did pay attention to the part where you said you weren't attacking them personally. So much of this stuff has been a part of our culture since forever and that fact has never made it right. I'm really glad that you had the courage to do this video.
I get it, honestly, because I sometimes I knee-jerk get defense when people criticize things I love. I try to be kind about it because I know how it feels haha
Your moral prescription of the author being sexist and critiquing him for positioning the reader through geralts male perspective and sexuality, insinuates that male sexuality is inherently sexist. You are conflating your ideological beliefs that differences between genders and their sexuality is purely a social construct but do not recognize your own bias from your sexual experiences as a woman could distort what sexuality ought to be, (even though you argue using your experiences as a woman of sexual harassment during the video). In claiming impartiality, you implicitly place female sexuality as morally righteous and dismiss the critical importance of aesthetics of female anatomy for male sexuality. Female and male sexuality are distinct and need to be respected as such. They are generalized as differing combinations of biological imperatives AND sociological context. Male sexuality might cause disgust for you as a woman when you read it, but it's that grittiness that makes it an authentic insight into the mind of the Witcher that is tonally consistent with the vulgarity of its fantasy world. By just saying it's objectivication you mischaracterize and reduce the moral agency of geralt as a man, the intense sexual feelings upon looking at breasts for a man is not immoral, but rather how the man chooses to compose himself facing those intrinsic desires that CAN be immoral. The narrative theme of "everyone can be monsters" is illustrated here as Geralt is facing the sexual monster within himself, as every man does and while he doesn't get it right every time it provides referencing for the male reader on how to handle their own sexuality. The more references someone has the better men can handle their sexuality in social relations in the real world. Therefore it is moral to express the aesthetic desires of male sexuality within fiction indiscriminately.
Female authors often do the exact same thing with men as well (objectifying their bodies and behaviour) especially in romance novels. I think if we want to be offended by every little thing then it'll ruin a lot of fiction but that's just me as someone who loves the fantasy genre and appreciates when male authors actually attempt to give women agency and unique backstories etc like in the Witcher. Some of the sci fi from the 60s-70s was way more hardcore sexist. Like in one they're all soldiers in space, but only promiscuous women are allowed to be female soldiers because they are expected to "serve" every male soldier all night :o And this wasn't some weird erotica it was an actual sci fi adventure story and everyone in the story acts like that's a totally reasonable thing for the women to have to do, even the women themselves!! So they have to train just as hard as the men, and work just as hard, but don't get to sleep at all because all night the three of them are "serving" like 20 guys as though it's a privilege D: not only is it very sexist, but also totally impractical because it would make them useless, exhausted soldiers in this extremely dangerous alien terrain. Sorry to rant, but from my perspective as a female there's sometimes genuine sexism (from both genders!) but as you said, the Witcher is more just explaining the world from Geralt's perspective and never came across as sexist to me personally :)
I know this is an old video and you probably won't read this but I just wanted to say: as a longtime Witcher books fan, I also approached this video very defensively, but you have stated your case very clearly and gave such poignant examples, I had no choice but to acknowledge these are some serious missteps on Sapkowski's part (and I always hated that bit when Yennnefer is tied to a wagon as well). I feel your critique is tough, but fair - and I'm glad you still found things you enjoyed about the stories. I fully understand why you didn't want to continue but I'd be sooo curious about your opinion on the novels. I say this because I feel like they dig deeper into what you said about actually commenting on the sexism of the world Geralt lives in. There is a whole arc about sorceresses forming a secret all-female Lodge to manipulate political events because they feel like the men in power don't treat them seriously enough and they could do a better job at it. There is a prominent abortion subplot that makes an explicit, unequivocally pro-choice statement. There is a strong theme of men treating Ciri like an object and wanting her just so they can have children with her. There's even some commentary on how patriarchal religions uphold misogyny and a witch-hunting priest gets his due. Some stuff in there is still quite problematic and hotly debated among fans, particularly in relation to Ciri's story as she grows up, or the way sorceresses cynically use their sexuality and magically enhanced looks, so I couldn't promise it'd be all smooth sailing until the end, but I feel like Sapkowski complicated things a bit in the novels and as he developed as a writer and the story became more about Geralt, Yen and Ciri forming a surrogate family of sorts, he strayed away from the Conan the Barbarian vibe of some of the short stories. Anyhow, that's my two cents, I really enjoyed the video, cheers. :)
I mostly agree, even though I grew up reading the Witcher (I'm Polish) and I generally have sentiment for this saga, I'd enjoy it more without describing breast over and over again. The thing is intentional, though. The Witcher is a subversion of the fantasy genre. In Poland, it is often described as "fantasy for people who don't like fantasy" (I'm in this group). Pathos is replaced with farce, Tolkien-like mythological battles with casual events, wise kings with brutal politicians, heroes with professionals, the language of belles-lettres with vulgarisms... and Platonic, romantic love with vulgar sex. And two first books are definitely written purely from the perspective of Geralt, a male perspective, sadly described rather realistically, in terms of what men see first. Geralt saying "oh, perfect boobs!" instead of "oh, a mermaid!" was meant to be a comedic contrast to Tolkien, but it's rather a poor gag. However, the saga is actually about Ciri, where the supposed hero of the story -- the Witcher, is actually not important to the world (which is emphasized by the ending of Geralt's story). The parts with Ciri show different perspective, not on male-female relationships though, since she's lesbian. It's interesting, in the book it is said, that she and her girlfriend are often having sex, but the act is not actually present, only one influential to the story time. So it's not like horny Sakowski decided he'll write now lesbian erotic book for men. Be warned, though, this one time may be a bit too much for you, it's not a fairy tale after all.
Thanks it's really interesting hearing the perspective of a Polish person! The only thing I don't like about The Witcher is I can't speak Polish so I can't read the books in their original language 😭 I heard the English translations aren't very good compared to the originals :c But I still love them ^_^ My favourites are Last Wish, Sword of Destiny, and Season of Storms. All the ones mostly about Geralt and Jaskier and their bizarre adventures :D
@@Vexarax Sapkowski is known to have an extensive vocabulary. His books are a beautiful mix of flowery language and elaborate swearing. Haven't read the Witcher saga in English, but I heard the translation doesn't do justice to the original. :< Last Wish, Sword of Destiny -- we have similar tastes, my favourites :D Season of Storms is great, I like it more than the saga storywise, but it doesn't match the rest of the books in terms of the language. It's probably because it has been written long after the rest. It is in fact so different, that there's a theory that Sapkowski invented the story, and someone helped him write it.
@@McSwey I didn't even notice the difference in storytelling in Season of Storms but maybe it's because of the translation?? It went into a lot more of the lore which I loved!! I am listening to the audiobooks again and will keep my ears out for differences, but yes if the translations in English aren't very good then that may be why I didn't notice a difference. I wish I could speak and read Polish just to read the books in their original language ^_^
Fellow Polish here. I also think that depiction of sorceress in The Witcher was also meant to be a slap in catholic morality we have. That's why sorceresses are sexy, horny, often naked and in power, to challenge the traditional view on women place in society. It also appeals to men fantasy. I don't have that much of a problem with this series, because it was extremely progressive for its time. But get that to the modern English-reader it seems sexist.
Up to the swod of desteny it was ment to be poviedka (i dont know how to translate the word to keep the meaning), its suposed to do the world building show how characters think and what they look at. Geralt doesnt think about women when Ciri is arund, Dandelion doesnt sexualize Little-Eye because she cares for her as a sister, and Zerrikanians do as Jackdaws tells them because they want to because they love and are devoted to there Golden Dragon. Yes some things are little unnecesary but other are needet to paint a character. bdw nineties in central Europe is a log time ago considering this book writhen three years after fall of communism
There are definitely parts of The Witcher series that I wish were not in there, but I still don’t know if I would remove them. Yes, women are objectified, but so is everyone (just in other ways). Men are valued in this world only for how they are able to work/fight, while women are valued only for romance. Nobody cares about the entirety of a person, they all just care about how they can “use” other people. This stereotyping is harmful, but I do think the series as a whole wants readers to realize it is harmful. No, you should not treat women like they are treated in The Witcher. Also, you should not treat men like they are treated in The Witcher. The point is that this is a horrible world, and seeing the characters trying to survive in this horrible world is what makes the main series probably my favorite fantasy series (I also did not love The Last Wish). I also think many fans overly lionize Geralt. He is very imperfect, and is proven wrong repeatedly (the famous quote about not choosing between evils is proven idiotic and false by the story it is said in). Geralt’s relationships are portrayed as unhealthy (I still insist his relationship with Yen was toxic from the beginning), and his handling of gender is commented on at least a couple times (one I remember is the training/education of Ciri). I think in the main series (the part I like) the characterization is better, but there is also a lot more assault (including sexual violence). I feel it is done purposely to show how dark the world is and how certain events are only making it darker (and one scene puts you in the mind of the assaulted in a visceral way that felt so real and meaningful to me), so I don’t think it’s “just exploitation”, but it is a bit of an uncomfortable read.
I understand this defense and reading of it. For some reason, the Witcher just doesn't personally read to me like that. It feels more objectifying in nature rather than showing how crappy the world was. This is just my "feelings" which is like...not scientific and not great but I just can't shake it, if that makes sense. I've read novels where I felt that the objectification/sexism were a part of the world building, and here it just didn't feel that way. I agree about Geralt and Yen being toxic. I didn't know people thought it was a great love story. I think it's an interesting love story, though - but I haven't read enough of it obviously to make huge judgements.
I agree with you too. I never thought of a lot of these things until seeing this set of videos. I think Geralt is an ideal flawed person. The main series portrays this well, but also the main series gets worse with the sexual assault. Especially with how many near misses Ciri has. Geralt is also only valuable for his ability to cause harm to perceived enemies. I'd be interested to see what Sapkowski has to say about how he intended this series to be received.
Sorry to contradict. But I do have a friend named Gerald, who pronounces his name with a hard G. :) This has probably gotten worse in the age of audio books though. Many of us just latch on to whatever pronunciation the narrator uses. I was recently blown away watching a Daniel Greene video where he interviewed Michael Sullivan, who wrote Riyria Revelations. He confessed that he usually gives zero thought to the pronunciation and chooses names that "look good" on the page. He went so far as to say when readers ask how to pronounce something, he just turns the question around and asks them how they pronounce it, and tell them they are right.
I'm mostly just impressed you watched until the very very end lol. Shoot, I thought for sure I had you guys with that one...but I guess back to the drawing board. See, Sullivan is doing it right. Just going with the flow and sowing chaos among his fandom.
This is something I did not noticed in the Witcher, (it is mostly part of prose and I’m less observant of prose). I do think that it might be negligence by the author rather than malice. I know some of the stories were first published independently in a fantasy magazine, so I hypothesize that the edit they got were lacking. That might explain why the last stories (setting the saga they might published first as part of the collection) are different. Another explanation is a failed attempt in social commentary. Supporting this notion is the fact that Geralt himself is subject to sexualization and objectification in the books. Regarding to the second, he was stripped of his bodily autonomy, forcefully turned into a mutant. He is regarded by society as devoid of a heart, of scruples and of his own free will, which is mention again and again. This leads me to hypothesize that the objectification of minor characters was supposed to draw attention to the objectification of the main character as of a commentary about the human condition. Some of the stuff I can’t explain. I do think that a little sacrifice started on the right side of the issue of sexual assault. Geralt actions was presented at first as nasty and wrong. Geralt is the protagonist but he was never presented as prefect or unmalleable. The continuation of the story does undo its good start and sends a problematic message. I do hope you will continue into the Sage. The saga presents a barrage of powerful and independent female character. I searched my Ebook copy of the next book for key words regarding the female anatomy and I do think it got better on the issue. I would like to warn that this is issue is one that I less prone to notice. There is social commentary on gender issues in the books. There also some exploration of gender issues, some of it better some less, but I think it is exhilarating to find a good faith (and somewhat liberal) exploration of those issues in a book published in deeply religious and conservative country. I would like to mention that even the notion of sexual objectification of women is minorly addressed in the next book. (a morally ambiguous male is being reproached on staring at a women breast).
Geralt's lack of bodily autonomy is interesting but hasn't been explored a lot yet in the books I've read; but again, as I'm just focusing on objectification, for it to be "Equal" it would be like every male's genitalia described when you meet them. It sounds absolutely ridiculous when I say that, but then again, every speaking female character's breasts were described. I agree with some of your points; there are many intentional commentaries about sexism in the Witcher, but I think where it fails is when it *isn't* doing that, but rather just writing in a way that objectifies the women it explains. It honestly doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not...it does it. I think if it's unintentionally, the proves it's more on the author. Again, the books aren't bad, but it's just overwhelming sometimes when I read it. I agree that at first, it seemed that A Little Sacrifice was going the right direction. It seemed like it was making a point about it; but having Essi actually be in love with the Witcher undercut any sort of point that could be made, which was super disappointing. Honestly, if that whole short story wasn't in the book, I probably would've written off the other instances of objectification as whatever or eye-rolls. That sort of cemented it for me.
Well the author is a male and is writing a book that he would like to read and male are visual.. thus that is the end product you get. Personally I enjoy that side of the Witcher and also in ASOIAF .. I dislike living inside the head of a character who is always decent because lets be honest every person has a dark pervy side. Also if it was the other way around, females continuously describing males body parts then that would be probably more of an erotica genre thing for female readers for the most part. It is what it is, there are different readers target audience and the writer shouldn’t be politically correct rather true to his target audience
Hey Bookborn You did an excellent video, very detailed, well proven and with good remarks. I’m very glad I’ve watched it, most of the things you pointed out, I missed them completely. I have read the Witcher saga few times, first back in the nineties and maybe I could say something in the defence of Sapkowski. Most of the people miss completely, what the Witcher short stories are in fact. Sapkowski wasn’t an author, when he started writing them. He was working as a foreign trader, and he did the first story on his son request for a short story contest in Fantastyka magazine. He had a strong feeling, he could do better (sell better) than most of polish authors did at that time. His Witcher story got him 3rd place, but much more prise from readers than first two places ever got. So in next few years he did several witcher short stories for the same magazine. They were printed separately from time to time, so each one had to be short, have interesting story, some sex and witty humour. After fall of communism we had initial “wild” period of western brutal capitalism, where “sex sells” was literally everywhere. TV, billboards, magazines, you name it. And you can see this in these short stories. People do forget, that at the time of writing, they were not intended to be collected in the books, they were formed into few years later. I believe by the time of last two you mentioned, he was already working on the first book, and that’s the reason they are different (and I love them too). Only after 3-4 years of publishing short stories he started to believe he could become a full-fledged writer and live completely of his works (which was not an easy task in Poland at that time - most authors were very poor indeed). The books he wrote from 1992 are completely different to short stories. In fact, when you check reviews, there are many people now who love his short stories and hate the books and many more who do the opposite. And there are of course thousands of hardcore Witcher 3 fans who just love them all for the world and characters he created. Sapkowski developed his writing skills very much in following years. In my opinion, he became a formidable master of written language, creating beautiful sentences with excellent vocabulary and vast knowledge of foreign languages, history, literature and many other story important details. He is very dedicated, wrote his books on a very regular basis with great concepts and storytelling. I love his hussite trilogy, which is among the most beautifully written books I ever read in polish. I have read that much is lost in the English translations and I can easily imagine that, knowing how much polish language differs in sentences constructions and word meanings alterations with cases, which is completely absent in English. You should give a chance his later books, I have a strong feeling you could like them much more than the short stories.
This is really fascinating insight thank you! Only a Polish person could really know this I think. Sounds like the first Witcher stories were written almost for a Playboyesque audience. The differences in Polish literature based on the fall of communism are also fascinating
I thought this video was really well done. You were thorough and clear about your problems. And I really appreciate that you cited specific examples instead of just making blanket statement as many do when talking about things like this. So really nice work ^^
I know this is a very old video now but for what it's worth regarding a comment you made near the end: the rest of the series is indeed more like those last two stories. The focus is on Geralt and Ciri's relationship and their respective adventures, and there are a lot of great characters who grow over time with a real sense of journey and adventure that you don't get from Last Wish or Sword of Destiny since those are sort of more like short story anthologies. I won't say that the general chauvinism is completely gone but (without spoiling) it is noticeably different and there's at least one female character in particular that comes to mind who I feel has a lot of depth and has to confront some issues that the author kind of impressed me with in his handling given the track record. It may not be your cup of tea still but it's definitely one of my favorite fantasy series' and with you getting into A Song of Ice and Fire now I think maybe you'd enjoy the main series Witcher books if you decide to give them a chance. That all said I really enjoyed this video because I think it's easy as a guy growing up with stuff all over to become pretty desensitized to it and when this sexism is really demonstrated like this it's certainly thought-provoking. It really does put into perspective how much contrast there is between this sort of writing and some stories that do a lot more justice to women. That said though, the rest of the series does get better.
I hated this about Dresden files as well, even though it doesn't affect me personally I found it took me out of the book every few pages when it came up (which in the first few chapters was literally every new character), so I couldn't get into the actual good bits of the story. I like books that make me stop reading and think about messages, but when its actual issues just been ignored or even promoted I just find myself getting annoyed at the book and not wanting to pick it up. Thank you for this review, I was considering getting into the witcher series, but from the sounds, I'm not gonna enjoy it.
You're the second or third person to mention the Dresden files on this video, and I have the first book and was planning to start it soon...so now I'm curious how i'll feel about it, since I hadn't heard this comment previously on that series.
@@Bookborn literally I chapter two it's made out like the characters super moral and good because he says 'I come from an old school of thought. I think me ought to treat women like something other then just shorter, weaker men with breasts' and then a few pages on (And this is mild spoilers but like I say, chapter 2 so up to you if you read on) So a few pages on he walks I to a room where two people have had their chests exploded from the inside, it's the most gruesome sight he's ever seen but before we learn of that he describes the dead corpse as 'body leaned back, bowed like a dancers, the curves of her breasts making a lovely outline' like the auther chose to prioritise telling us that over the actual details of the murder in a crime scene investigation. I was super hyped to get into the series but just found it disappointing and wouldn't recommend it. Could make a good video discussing it tho, since the detail of this has helped my choice in not reading witcher, I wish I'd known about it before I got so excited about it.
@@samk7721 Good to know and also that gruesome scene you described grossed me out and it probably wasn't even as graphic as the book so I've got an uphill battle coming I supposed 😂
I only read the first book so far and have just started this one, I didn't really get the idea that the previous book was sexist, although i can see where someone would get that idea. From what I can remember, the fact that some characters were objectified wasn't treated as a good thing at all, but I can't defend a lot of the things mentioned in this video. To be fair, I do tend to miss details in a lot of stories so it might have just went over my head.
I think we tend to notice things that more directly relate to us; so maybe you haven't received a lot of direct sexism in your real life making it less noticeable in your fiction. Either way, I enjoyed this book a lot more than the first, so interested to see if it's the same for you!
@@Bookborn Yes, that's definitely true that I have not experienced what you, so I could be missing it due to a lack of experience. I'll pay a lot more attention to it as I read this book soon.
@@uspresdientcentral Yeah, I've noticed, for example, people talking about bad representation for those who have physical disabilities and it's all stuff I've never noticed because it doesn't apply to me, ya know?
For me, reading the first book, it was how every single monster is a woman. It read like a primal fear of women and femininity. Particularly in the way that Snow White and Belle are turned into the villains. It became a matter of going "ok, new story, where's the woman that's gonna secretly be a monster." It became the trope in itself. Belle is the monster. Not the man who raped a woman and got turned into a Beast. wtf
As 30-or-so year olds, I think we have a tendency to underestimate how long ago the 90s were lol. But yes I agree the book feels like it was written before then, even if a lot of progress has also been made in the last two decades. Good analysis by the way, glad you found some enjoyment out of those two stories at least!
@@Bookborn i was born in 1987 in the USSR and believe me the 90s in ex-USSR and Poland were not the same as the 90s westerners know and remember. In terms of progressiveness and thought it's more like the 50s/60s in the USA. We were behind the iron curtain for many decades after all. We only got free access to western stuff in the late 80s .It's more westernized and modern now but you have to remember that Poland got free from communism only in 1989. Also, Slavic culture is a bit different in general.
@@Bookborn Objectifying women is not a western issue, never was. Like Nick, I was also born behind the iron curtain, though 10 years before him, and in Hungary, so there are small differences in our perceptions of the 90s, but I would say we were no more that 10 years behind the zeitgeist of the west, and it was quickly disappearing. In all other aspects of society, it was fairly easy to catch up. But racism, homophobia, and sexism still appear strongly in eastern europe. Right winged parties in Russia, Poland and Hungary use tropes from these fields to fuel the anger of their supporters, and to stay in power. But at the same time, these things were very much frowned upon by the inteligentzia and literary high society by the 80s for sure, so in the 90s, lots of much better content was widely available, and so I tend not to give a pass to anyone.
First story about Witcher was published in 1986 in "Fantastyka". I think intention was to go against idealisation of fantasy world building and to include tragedy of characters living in brutal world of injustice, powerplay and constant war. Despite all efforts none of characters may live "happy ever after". Book is strongly influence by Polish literature and history. I think, that Sapkowski was hoping for contrary to what his story was.
I noticed that you repeatedly insert the most offensive kinds of sexism into the story yourself. Examples: Just because Geralt gets to choose between the bodyguards doesn't mean they don't get to choose. You said that they don't get to choose, not the book. Just because the sexual desirability of each female is always an issue (your point about describing their breasts every time is spot on), it never says that this is the only thing women are good for. You said that, not the book. Yes, there are definitely misogynistic themes through out the books, but it seems like your imagination makes these themes into much scarier monsters than they otherwise would be. It seems like you *want* the books to be as horribly sexist as possible and actively put in effort to make them so.
Excellent video and I wish more people were open to have this conversation in the fantasy community. Unfortunately, the genre has so many problems of this type that people push it off as normal and get defensive when it is brought up. You can criticize something you like and with critique will come better stories. I enjoyed the first two Witcher books well enough but could not really put a finger on why I did not wish to continue. You explained so much that was going on in my mind. Amazing analysis. You made so many great points which can be applied to the genre as a whole. Unfortunately, there is not enough space in the youtube comment area to elaborate but there was so many things you said that had me screaming "Yes that's exactly it!" I am curious if you have read the Dresden Files? Because oh boy, does that series have its problems.
OHhhh NO I'm going to start the Dresden files after I finish First Law. Guess I'm in for a ride. Maybe I won't comment on that one, though, I don't need another fandom coming for me 😅 It is such an issue in adult fantasy. Most of it I just brush off with an eye roll and try and ignore so that I can enjoy the larger story. But sometimes it just culminates too much and ruins the enjoyment. One of my commenters said it really nicely: "sometimes authors use female suffering as world building". It's like...rape and sexual abuse and what have you definitely have a place in stories, but authors recently have been less thoughtful about when they include that, imo, and often use it as a way to auto make their stuff more grim. Anyway I don't know if I'm explaining myself but I always appreciate when authors make conscious efforts about it.
@@Bookborn Absolutely and I think that people use grimdark as an excuse to overlook certain things in fantasy and put it off as part of the world. I found what you said very telling. That we can imagine a fantasy world with magic, dragons, etc but are thrown off with the idea of gender equality in a fantasy because it is so called historically "inaccurate" 🙄 If you want some fantasy that deal with gender equality I recommend the following The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal. A mixture of historical fiction/scifi that centers around a women fighting to be an astronaut in the 1950s. The Golden Key by Kate Elliot, Jennifer Roberson, and Melanie Rawn. A standalone that narrates three different generations of two different families. An important theme of the book is how women must fight for recognition of their talents and fight the gender structure of their world. The Empress of Salt and Fortune by Nghi Vo. A novella that chronicles the rise of power of an Empress in a patriarchal society. Such a beautiful novella with fantastic prose. Will most likely be a candidate for an Hugo award this year.
@@Bookborn Now is the time to jump into Nghi Vo's hype train. She is probably my most hyped new author alongside Alix E Harrow. And later this year she will release her first full length novel, The Chosen and the Beuatiful, a Great Gatsby retelling with a queen Asian American protagonist.
@@afantasybabble6222 Literally just went and bought the novella. I jumped on the Harrow hype train immediately after only reading her first novel, so I'm ready for a Vo hype train. (Also...that cover 😍)
When I saw the title of your first witcher video my eyes rolled so hard they almost came unstuck from my head.. but after having watched both now, you made some good points and the only one I think you got wrong was regarding the women's "heaving breasts" he's describing them breathing heavily, not there tits both men and women have breasts armor that covers the front torso is called a breastplate.. I hope you read the rest of the story and I look forward to your review!! You've gained a sub :)
I won't lie that I got a little pedantic in the end - after hearing breast so many times, I was like "couldn't he say chest heaving??" - but normally, that phrase wouldn't catch me off guard, it was more in relationship to everything else. I'm glad I could redeem myself after my first video, which I'll be the first to admit wasn't done the best :)
To be fair, the phrase that would be used would be "heaving breast" adding the extra "s" at the end still refers to "breasts" (only present in women, although I'm being a little reductive) rather than "breast"; something that everyone has.
Honestly I think most people would tell you that Sword of Destiny is the best Witcher book. It isn't the overwhelming favorite, but it is probably the most common pick. My favorite was Tower of the Swallows, but that is also a lot of peoples least favorite.
The quotes about the breasts heaving might just be a translation thing like saying someone’s chest is heaving as in they are breathing hard. Idk thought cause I’m not Polish and haven’t read it in the original language.
I definitely considered that, but with her character there was never an appearance where her breasts weren't mentioned haha. So translation or not, it's just an interesting thing. There could very well be a chance that the original translations don't have many of these problems...
I can't tell you whether it's worth continuing I'm afraid. I bought most, if not all, of the books when they were in a kindle sale, and my brother, who is a fan (probably more of the games to be honest, but has read the books) suggested starting at Blood of Elves, which I believe is the beginning of the major story arc. I couldn't finish it. And I'll be perfectly frank, I can't even remember if there was anything sexist in what I did read, but I just could not get on with it at all. I found the writing style really jarring, I couldn't work out if it was like that in the original text or it was the translation. Whichever it was it meant that I couldn't concentrate on what was going on in the story (probably why I can't recall if anything sexist happened in it) as I was regularly frustrated with the tone, structure and language usage. I may revisit them at some point, but I am in no hurry. I did love the story and characters of the Witcher 3 game though. Especially Zoltan. (Should I be offended that foul mouthed dwarves and ogres are regularly portrayed with Scottish accents? Probably, but he made me laugh so I'll let it slide!) On a more serious note I'm sorry to hear of your own experiences, particularly being followed, that must have been scary especially when your child is there with you! Sorry to say, there are some messed up people in the world. Stay safe. Oh, and this may amuse you (or maybe not if you are a fan!), I got called sexist on another youtube channel recently (a science one) when the host made a video talking about the science behind some Taylor Swift lyrics. I commented that making me learn about Taylor Swift songs to get my science fix was a cruel and unusual punishment. Apparently that makes me sexist according to one person (not the host I should probably point out), so I'm probably not the best person to discuss these things with you as I am clearly a terrible human being!
lol you are definitely not sexist if you don't like Taylor Swift. Those kind of arguments just hurt the real conversation around feminism and I find it very annoying. You do, however, just simply have no taste. JK but not cause I'm a huge deep dark secret Swiftie and I can bring you to my ted talk about how she's actually a very good song writer and just her famous songs are very bad because of her choices. But that has nothing to do with this video and I apologize for bringing you into this conversation you did NOT want. ANYWAY a lot of huge witcher fans say that the translation is just bonkers in english. Apparently there's a better one online a fan or something made? But I don't have time in my life to read things like that online so I'm just walking lol
@@Bookborn Not the first time I've been told I have no taste, and I doubt it will be the last! That's ok though as I know that everyone that doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. ;) You lost me at ted talk I'm afraid. I'm guessing that is either a TS fan phrase or an American colloquialism I'm not familiar with? And I have no problem having a conversation about Taylor Swift or her music, hell my comment was made in jest even if I am not a fan.I just found their reply rather surreal tbh. And that's interesting about the alternative translation, I may check that out for comparison at some point, but I can understand why you wouldn't be bothered. I'm slightly invested in the characters through the game, so I'd still like to know more about them, even though the game and books are separate entities.
Totally agree with all of this! I read the first three books and kept feeling like maybe it was just my own problem that the way the women were written bothered me so much.
I think the book would have been markedely improved if the little eye/meemaid story had been omitted. Also, thank you for the explanations regarding sexism. As a male-bodied person its easy to overlook or just roll my eyes and move on because I haven't been the target of it. Still one of my favorite series of all time, but it's got problems and flaws. Especially early on
I loved this video. I felt the same way while reading The Witcher's books. There's sexism in all the books, unfortunately. I got sick of reading about rape (not explicit or shown, but mentioned every few pages). It's a shame, because I think the main arch of the series is great! I just didn't like how it was told, and I also felt a little violent while reading more than a bunch of times.
Someone commented on my other witcher video "it's tiring when people use women's suffering as worldbuilding" and it just nailed my feelings on it so much. Often it's not used as an event or a plot device, but mere world building, like you said, and that's when it's just exhausting.
@@Bookborn Exactly! Mere worldbuilding. Women being sexualized or demonized, or being assaulted as an accepted truth, causing no effect to the plot whatsoever. Just being stated, so you know that's normal. It was really frustrating to read, honestly. It could have been a great series.
I'm not particularly bothered by this sort of thing, and think some of it is justifiable in the books; the society of the Witcher is meant to be awful and people do awful things to one another. Despite that, I still got fed up with Ciri (and other important female characters) being threatened with rape from every evil character she encountered (aside from Bonhart, he was fine with just torturing and enslaving Ciri). It's like Sapkowski just couldn't fathom a female character being in danger without also being threatened with sexual assault.
Thank you for being female fantasy fans' voice on this. I appreciate it. This was a great video and it made me a subscriber. I didn't read The witcher, but I am having similar problems with The Dresden files. How hard is for an author to understand that around half of potential readers out there do NOT want to read about female breasts and/or asses descriptions. To put it simply to all potential authors out there: When you write in a sexist manner, when breast, lips and ass descriptions come along with every female character introduced...you are making a big chunk of your readers feel like objects, less than a person. That feels very, very, VERY bad. No one wants to read to feel treated like crap.
This is so funny because I just finished the first Dresden files book. It wasn't as bad as the Witcher but yes, the casual sexism is so obnoxious. I'm tired of people acting like we are over sensitive. When you have to deal with it in daily life, when it's SO ubiquitous in your "escape" it gets very annoying.
@@Bookborn Exactly, some men will call us oversensitive. But this shit is hard to stomach when you have to deal with sexism every single day of your life. "Want an "escape" into fantasy worlds? Too bad, sexism is all over those worlds as well"....I am just tired you know. Once again thank you for your video.
I have several issues with your video, however lets start with some things I think we can agree on. With the Witcher series I didn't finish it in part because of some of the reasons you listed here. While we seem to disagree with what is permissible to have in literature. I will agree that most of your issues with the Witcher should not be tolerated IRL. I also am perfectly fine in saying all the things you listed that happened you should not have happened to you. My first issue is with your examples of sexism. Your words "In books this might take different forms, It might be that women just aren't really present in the story.". Are you actually saying that books actively require a fully fleshed out realized female character arc or it's sexist? Secondly I have a problem with how you are trying to define objectification. In general I agree with treating people as per Kant's categorical imperative. Treat everyone as an end unto themselves. Their is however a very serious problem when you start trying to apply it not only to your actions, but your internal thoughts and feelings. No one can treat everyone as an end unto themselves unless you are a hermit. Lastly I am confused about your issue with women being described (presumably by Geralt) in a sexual manner. I am perfectly fine with you getting annoyed with it being brought up way too much. Is your issue with it being constantly brought up by the author? Or are you unhappy with Geralt noticing women in a sexual manner?
Excellent video! I loved it. Again, I love the witcher world and I have read all the books but what you are talking about is true, we [readers] should spot this on future reads, and at least be aware of the problem. haha I know is unbelievable but there is gonna be people out there who is going to fight you on the topic even with all that evidence. Keep up the good work.
I read all of the Witcher and I enjoyed most of it but I completely agree with you, the way it treats women always felt wrong to me but I guess that's just a lot easier to ignore when the real-life implications of that sexism don't affect you personally
Author and TH-camr Elizabeth Wheatley who is a proud feminist completely disagrees with you. She’s also read the entire series. I haven’t finished the short story books but I did finish the series and it’s amazing. Calls Sapkowsky’s women “some of the best women in fantasy and written by a man”
The objectification is ine thing, the thing I hate the most about this series is that every female character is the same character with different hair colors. All of them are power hungry liars that have the hots for Geralt. Or ugly.
Sadly true… as an asexual this and the frequent sex/nudity puts me off from reading the series. I adore the world however, it's a very good setting and good opportunity to speak up about discrimination, prejudice and progressivism, with a grim contrast to fairytales. I also enjoy the investigation and beast slaying in the game, but I wish the women were more like actual people instead of walking talking dolls. Also Geralt deserves true and honest love
Thank you Bookborn, this was a thoughtful well presented video. It gave me a lot to think about. As a man those things did not stand out to me as much when I first read those two Witcher books, but my wife read it and was not very happy... I was confused. She sort of explained, I still did not really understand, but in some of the other fiction books I slowly started seeing the things she spoke about. I did not realize male authors did these things, over, and over, and over... Now that it has been brought to my attention, I can understand why it is upsetting. I appreciate that you took the time to clearly explain these points.
I'm a female but I love the Witcher books and don't really see any of the things outlined as sexism per-se because the books (the first two especially) are based on European fairytales and actually work hard to give women more agency and unique backstories etc as opposed to the original fairytale versions of themselves. But if one wants to go hunting for sexism then either gender is often objectified in some ways depending on the author. Men's bodies and motivations are often described in extremely sexist ways when women write (especially in romance novels for some reason) so one would have to avoid a lot of fictional works if one wanted to entirely avoid all forms of sexism! :)
@@VicRibeiro777 I was reading all the comments here last night (it was 4am and I had insomnia, haha) and someone from Poland was saying the original books are actually meant to be satire of high fantasy, like satire of Tolkien etc? So it's meant to come from this sort of mildly (but comically) misogynistic male viewpoint ie where Tolkien would make everyone behave themselves and act honourably, Geralt will see a mermaid and think "great boobs!" lol.. which let's face it, many men (and probably many women too) would actually be thinking that :p Sadly I think a lot of the satirical nature may have been lost in translation? And the double layer of irony is the stories are adaptations of old European fairytales which are one of the hugest culprits of misogyny (I adore old fairytales but women are always treated horribly by everyone in them!!!) and he actually did a great job of giving women from the fairytales agency and unique backstories etc.. for example the tale with Renfri (where he ends up committing the m@ssacre in Blavicon) is a retelling of Snow White, Renfri is Snow White. And of course the vampire in Grain of Truth is Beauty, from Beauty and the Beast. And so on and so forth. The Polish commenters were also discussing the political climate at the time which apparently was another reason the books are written the way they are. I actually came out of the comments section of this video with an even greater appreciation of the Witcher books than I had before I watched this video :D (And commenting helps small creators with the algorithm so I always try to leave many comments under well thought-out videos like this one) :)
@@Vexarax with well thought out replies too, ;) thanks. I know how translations can impact a book. I knew some polish people complained about how it was translated. I haven't heard about the argument that it was supposed to be a satirical take on Tolkien. Thanks.
Lots to jump into here! Firstly I just want to say that this was a fun video and it's always a breath of fresh air to hear different viewpoints, whether they align with my own or not, and I think you articulated your feelings very clearly and well! On the issue of the books being sexist, this is honestly, in my opinion and from the people I've spoken to, so hard for me to get a definitive answer on, since the biggest fans of the series I've known have been my ex-wife, two ex-girlfriends and multiple female friends, all of whom absolutely adored the books and Geralt's character, and a few of them actually had opinions on the polar opposite side of the spectrum, citing that the books were actually feminist, because of the prominent and powerful female characters of the series such as Yennefer, Ciri, Calanthe and Triss. Being male myself, I can't honestly claim to be an authority on any level as to whether or not something is being sexist towards women or not, as I obviously haven't lived the experiences a woman would live, and as a result of that, don't see life through the same lens. What I would offer is that yes, many characters in the series are chauvinistic, which is a point used in many fantasy works (especially those written by men) to showcase that a character is corrupt, evil, bad, or otherwise flawed, as it's intended to play to the reader's sense of proper morals so that we feel strongly against them. This is done because men largely have a hero complex, ESPECIALLY fans of fantasy. We often daydream about coming in and saving the day, sometimes when women aren't involved at all, but more often when they are, because movies, stories, and fairy tales we heard growing up would often have the "knight in shining armor" type character. We could also argue this is problematic, and it could be, but I can't stress enough that the point of this kind of fantasy isn't usually to win the woman's love, but more so just to look and feel like a hero, to feel important, which is why men often write male characters who die to save the ones they love, because even though they won't be around to see the fruits of their sacrifice, they got to die knowing the people they cared for would be safe and remember him as a hero. What does any of this have to do with your comment about sexism? It's just an admittedly long-winded explanation meant to illustrate why they like to use women being mistreated to depict a character's badness, it's to play to the male sense of heroism and make us want to protect the female character(s) being mistreated and solidify their objectifier/assailant as being the bad guy. So while this is done to appeal to a male fantasy, it's not the one most people would expect, as it's not the reader (usually, hopefully) wishing they could freely abuse women in that same way. As for whether or not the author is sexist, it's really hard to say if Andrzej Sapkowski is sexist. I know he grew up in Poland during the aftermath of WWII and was practically raised exclusively by women, and used many of them as a template for the more complex, deep, and powerful women in his stories, which many could and do argue is a point against him being sexist, while others like to highlight the same things you have, about him using damsels in distress and women being groped and assaulted as proof that he is sexist (while others will argue these acts are narrative tools), so the issue seems practically impossible to get an objective answer to, as everyone interprets differently and many don't define sexism the same way. I would say personally that the book has a sexist society and many sexist characters, with problematic acts against both the male and female sexes at different points. For example, you cited many instances of women being objectified and assaulted by terrible men, and while that's all fair and valid, I would also cite the acts against men, such as the dryads taking men for breeding, including one who was basically crippled and couldn't effectively resist, and the alternative to being used for breeding stock and eventually released, is to be killed, and they even lose interest in Geralt upon learning that he's sterile, because men only hold limited sexual value to them and without it, aren't worth investing in. That particular event even happened in this book, and during one of the short stories you mentioned wasn't problematic towards women. Another (in)famous example is with Triss Merigold and Geralt of Rivia. In the next book, Blood of Elves, it's HIGHLY implied Triss used magic to coerce and subdue Geralt into a sexual relationship in the past, effectively magically date raping him and during Blood of Elves, continues to exhibit predatory behavior towards Geralt and makes multiple unwanted and unreciprocated advances, which illustrates that Sapkowski wasn't exclusive with what gender he subjected to these kinds of treatments. I bring this up because I know it could spark a lot of debates, is Sapkowski sexist if he doesn't discriminate which sex he objectifies and violates? Or is this done to help show the reader that his world is grimdark? Is he now sexist towards both sexes or is he sexist towards neither as a result of these decisions? Ultimately, I believe it largely comes down to the reader's interpretation. I admittedly tend to fall on the side of saying that his incredible female characters, two of which actually get more on-page time than Geralt does for over half the series (Yen and Ciri are dominant in Time of Contempt, Baptism of Fire, Tower of Swallows and Lady of the Lake) make this one of the more female empowering stories in the series. Does the series continue to objectify women? Well, yes and no, the rest of the series is more in line with Sword of Destiny, however, women do still get assaulted from time to time, in one instance even by another woman, which many praise the series for because it was willing to depict an act others say never happens, but it's always done under the light of illustrating that the character doing it lacks morals, and this approach to writing works because most men (who for a long time at least, were the vocally dominant majority of fantasy readers and thus who they were written mostly for and whose sensibilities were aimed at) respond the way the writer wants them to when these acts happen on page, so it's proven to be a successful formula in the past. However, I'm on board with it becoming less prominent now that more and more women are openly enjoying the genre as well. One more thing I have to address is the desire to see more fantasy series that don't have sexist worlds because fantasy doesn't reflect reality and, to that I would say I agree, depending on the inspiration. For example, Tolkien's Middle-Earth is wonderfully fantastical in a way that it's easy to see it as a wholly distinct world from our own, and thus separate it from our pre-conceived notion of how a sword-wielding society would act, while other series, particularly grimdark series like Witcher and A Song of Ice and Fire, are very heavily inspired by and based on a fictional version of our world, which makes it harder to separate in the mind of the average reader. Sure they have magic and dragons, but they largely exist in the background while the entire rest of the world(s) so heavily mirror real-life historical periods, that it would be jarring and much harder for most to immerse themselves in if they didn't have the same kinds of social conflicts present in their real-world historical counterparts. This was all just my own personal take of course, based on nothing more than my own views and views I've gathered from fans of the Witcher series, female and male alike, and the genre as a whole. It's of course not objective in any way, but I do hope it opens to door to discourse, preferably friendly ha ha. Great video!
I mean GRRM shows you can have grimdark with sexual assaults and period sexism and not write sexist way. Sapkowsky didnt. Whether it was intentional or unintentional.
@@Snowsc-dp7qo Debatable, I've met more women who think A Song of Ice and Fire is sexist than I have women who think Witcher is, so like I mentioned before, it seems there's not a common consensus on what determines a sexist book. I do know that grimdark as a whole tends to come under fire for it however. When I think sexist writing, I tend to think of things like The Fifth Sorceress myself. But that's also just my opinion, which along with about 98 cents will buy a bag of chips ha ha. So like all opinions, it's to be taken with a grain of salt.
It's easy to allow our favourite authors of the hock saying 'oh they didn't mean it' or just plainly refusing to see the evidence, especially when it doesn't seem relevant for the reader. Thank you for making this video, it's really important to acknowledge when something isn't quite right, even if it's in a novel we might like
I love the Witcher books, but I completely respect your opinion. I also recommend that you continue to read the books, because Ciri becomes the main character after this just as much, if not moreso than Geralt. You even changed my mind on a few things. One thing that you will learn later in the series (if you continue to read) is that Geralt and Ciri are the main characters, so to the unsuspecting eye, it may seem like other characters have none of their own motivations. However, all their decisions revolve around Ciri & Geralt due to the Destiny from the Law of Surprise and Ciri’s elder blood/prophecy. Ciri isn’t really present in the first two books, so it seems as if everyone’s motivations revolve around him (including men) but if you’re more aware of it towards women I can see why you feel that way. Other than that, I agree with you on a lot of things now. The way I look at it is that the book is emulating old fantasy stories even when they have misogynistic tropes (Snow White, sleeping beauty, etc) I also highly respect how respectful you come across in the video. A lot of time when people are talking about media they find problematic, they become condescending, passive aggressive, and in some cases downright hostile.
I know I'm late to the comment party but I really appreciate how you broke this down. I read The Last Wish awhile back after a bunch of people recommended reading the books and definitely put it in the "interesting world and story but dear god the sexism makes this unreadable for me today" category. Hadn't read this one but am not surprised that this trend continued. I'm sorry that your first video got the reaction it did and you had to bring this level of receipts to prove something that is quite clear to anyone who has a passing understanding of sexism. Love your channel and always appreciate your reviews!
The "it was written a long time ago" and "medieval societies were sexist" defences are complete rubbish. I was reading _The Sword of Destiny_ (1992) at the same time as I was reading _The Decameron_ , written by Giovanni Boccaccio in 1353, and the contrast was stark. Boccaccio depicted women's struggles of living within a sexist society, but also their achievements and small victories. It often depicts silly (often repetitive) sexual escapades, but female characters have a voice, tell their own stories and actively own their own sexuality. Whereas in the Witcher (written 639 years later), they are always passive objects to be used and abused by men. When I think of the intended audiences, _The Decameron_ I imagine being chuckled over by 14th century ladies, while the Witcher I imagine being salivated over by '90s teenage boys.
It's not rubbish at all if you mention that it's not just about the medieval era, but rather about war time in the medieval or the beginning of the modern era. The Decameron has practically nothing to do with the universe described in the Witcher series, so comparing the two makes no sense at all. The context of the Witcher series is more comparable to central Europe during the Thirty years war. Now I would be interested to find out about any book during the Thirty years war describing libertine interactions between men and women. It would make no sense for a book set in that kind of environment to describe egalitarian relationships between men and women. Women were the ones suffering most, because they had to live through the total decomposition and breakdown of the whole society.
@@maniravsadhur8409 I didn’t necessarily say it was rubbish, but rather that there’s a failure by some contemporary male fantasy authors to portray (medieval) sexism. The sexism as depicted by historical writers, or by well researched historic fiction writers isn’t overtly sexual. What it really comes down to is a key distinction/problem in fiction; the difference between _depicting_ problematic subjects, and writing in a problematic way. Take A Handmaid’s Tale for example. The society it depicts is horribly sexist; the characters are sexist, but the narration isn’t. Whereas in A Sword of Destiny, both the characters and (I’d argue) the author is. If a male character fixates on a woman’s breasts, it shows that the character is lecherous - if the author himself, writing in third person, fixates on a woman’s breasts, it’s sexism on behalf of the author. It’s not about _what_ is depicted, but _how_ the author chooses to depict it.
As long as person of type A is attracted to attributes and features of people of type B; I think some objectification is going to occur. Being attracted to another person's features and not objectifying them requires a very conscious effort of the superego to overcome the more instinctual id. I hope you don't mind me borrowing concepts from Freud's ideas. I was reading into the issue of objectification among lesbians and found that, indeed; it exists in those circles as well.
Other stuff - What a video! Love the delivery even more than the content. Such high level of research and preperation! The philosophy B.A. in me is blushing. Totally unrelated - If you namedrop Winds of Strife without showing the cover again, I unsubscribe and report the channel for malcontent. Lolz ok ok, jokes aside, I think it's a good idea to show the books when you mention them. You did that in previous videos. It's a BookTube thing, and it's also very supportive for the author, so, yea. And thanks for thinking of Winds of Strife! Honestly had me shivering with excitement that you think about that before Stormlight and WoT
Many good points but 2 I disagree with. 1). I don't think angry women's heaving breast is supposed to be sexual. Maybe they should have said chest, but it just means they are fuming/huffing in anger. 2). Geralt being the hero doesn't mean we should agree with him. Geralt's poor understanding of his own feelings is a big thing in the books. Also hes jaded from seeing the worst of humanity for so many decades
Great video (the previous one was as well), I think you put it very nicely when you said: there is a difference between a book that is sexist and book that has a sexist society. I see it so often that people try to justify racist, misogynistic books (pr movies) by saying it's only realistic and this is how a realistic society works. But just as you said, you could have such societies without the narrative agreeing with it. What really bugs me is the so called thermian argument (coined by Dan Olson aka Folding Ideas), where people try to justify (controversial) things by claiming that it has an in-universe explanation, it is consistent with the worldbuilding of the fiction in question. This argument disregards the fact that the creator(s) made concious choices to have these controversial elements in their stories. I think it's way more important to ask questions like: why was it necessary to create a world where sorceresses need to be attractive in order to be taken seriously? why create a world where sexual violence agains women is prevalent? In a fantasy book, you could literarly have anything, and somehow still the medieval Europe is the baseline (or what people thing that society was like). And the funny part is, that the question of realism only comes up when justifying somekind of bigotry. I never heard people saying: yeah, I want to read books with realistic description of things like menstruation, body hair, people dying of infection, people getting sick during a quest because of lack of hygiene and so on. Sorry for the long comment, I'm very passionate about the subject :D
I've never heard of the thermian argument but what a GREAT add to this conversation. YES to absolutely EVERYTHING you said and you put it in words that I couldn't: these things exist in real life and have a place in fiction, but we need to ask ourselves WHY is this so prevalent in adult fantasy?
I applaud your effort and sober demonstration of how this book series objectify women. Still, how would you write about medieval times when women rights did not exist, consent was a tenuous concept at best, societies were organized alongside the rules of a class system? I guess one may always rewrite medieval fantasy using a 21st century moral compass, but this method would add a degree of separation to the historical reference the fantasy world would be built on. Men my age have grown up reading, watching stories and playing video games all propped up by the hero’s journey trope, whereby the young hero overcomes countless challenges to become the king and “get the girl”. To argue that The Witcher is sexist is most probably a valid statement to make, however, so very few classic fantasy novels would pass this test, that I fail to see how this saga stands out against The Wheel of time, Conan the barbarian, The Belgariad, or something as horrible as Lord Foul’s bane. Again, I do think that your arguments carry their own weight. I just don’t understand how stories might have been told in a radically different way while still portraying women life in European medieval times as it was, not as we wish it were, based on our modern values and expectations.
Yeah there's definitely a case to be made about the objectification of women in these books. I'd like to know though, if describing a woman's bossom qualifies as objectification, what would be the equivalent for men? I'm not asking for a pointless debate here, i'd really like to know. Like, what's the physical attribute for men which would work in the same way? (english not my first language, hope I'm clear enough)
@@Bookborn The sorceresses are suppose to be "sexy" because they gain power through seduction. Honestly, if you want to read a sexist series it would have to be the manga Berserk that shit made me puke at how sexist it was! But back to Witcher almost all of the female characters in this series are stationed in high power. I didn't really see the sorceresses as being objectified because it was explained in the book/games.
@@currangill430 This is specifically why I make the differential between objectification and sexism in terms of goals - the women do have power in this novel, but they are still objectified quite a bit; they are two different things. Additionally, I honestly had the last issue with Yennefer (at least in The Sword of Destiny, I had issues with her in The Last Wish), it was more the other women present in the novel.
@@Bookborn Eh? Yennefer? What was your problems with her? I don't recall any sexism/objectifications with her? She was just an asshole the Last Wish. In Sword of Destiny she was just being Yen which is an ass and liar. Do you mean the story with her deciding between Geralt and that other guy? That's just Yen. She cheats on Geralt and other men a fuck ton. Even so I love Yen to bits because she's such a complex character especially in the books. On the other hand I despise Triss lol
Also it's very unrealistic to expect an author (in dark fantasy and one who is trying to establish a realistic feudal medieval society) to not have sexism in it. However, if these same themes were recycled in a modern setting book I would have a lot of problems with it because then I would wonder if the author himself is sexist. I also just assumed, considering the pov of the short stories were from Geralt's pov, that that was how Geralt's mind worked he's a very horny guy but so are many of the women. The women are just like the men, they want to get off just like normal people.
Wow, this was a very insightful video. I've read the last wish and the sword of destiny and didn't notice or think about any of this while reading but now that you've broken it down its so obvious! I love the games but even they contain elements of this. Thank you for all the work you put into this!
A lot of good points that i never would've noticed on my own. I hope you read the rest of the series and analyze it through this lens. My gut tells me that it does get better, but honestly i can't remember enough about it to make that call. I can definitely think of a few examples of women being described breast-first but i think there's usually at least an attempt to justify it on a character level.
I'm not sure if I'm going to keep reading! Some people I trust say both: in some ways it does get better but also sometimes it doesn't. I may revisit it in the future but probably not soon.
Wow. Awesome video. I love how methodical you analyzed this subject. And I 100% agree with you. I think it’s so important to reflect on the sexism in our society and try to become better.
Thanks for the support! I agree that it's important to analyze this stuff - not because we should destroy the media or stop participating with it, but just so we can recognize it when it comes up!
Nah you’re right. The series surely got its flaws and the author is known to be weird. Since the fandom got a lot of gamers which didn’t read the books it gets toxic fast if you don’t praise the books. I still love the universe but i preferred the story in the games and the books where good but had a lot of problems
Thanks for making this video. I've read 4 of the Witcher books now, and constantly get annoyed with these issues you mentioned. It's not that the books are bad, but i'm getting tired of feeling grossed out, lol. They're not for me, i guess.
I've only read the first two and they were hard work. There's a lot of fun, interesting things about the Witcher, but the constant lecherous depictions of women are repulsive. I was wondering; are any of the later books more palatable? If not, I'd rather not give Sapkowski any more money.
Thank you so much for your content and thoughts on this series. I am a huge fan of the books, games, and tv show. Yes, there are many flaws. I would have to say Littleye’s story did bother me with her development and tragic ending of her character. In some instances it gets better in later books but in some cases it really doesn’t. Mikva’s character in Baptism of Fire comes to mind. I believe that some of Gerald’s behavior and story context is part of his arc as he matures into the father figure of a daughter and someone who ultimately wants to settle down with Yennefer (Narrative view or not). I would really enjoy your thoughts on Ciri’s arc. That being said I understand your view and I can see how problematic it is for consumers of the content and future writers as well. Thank you again for your time and hard work! You have given me a lot to think about moving forward.
Note that there are hints that in universe the book is supposed to have been written by Dandelion, or at least based on his notes. Dandelions sexism and the narrator's sexism are thus the same.
So far I've only read The Last Wish but yup! You basically hit on all the feelings I had while reading it with the overload of objectification!! xD I can't believe people think objectification doesn't happen anymore?! They definitely need to talk to some female friends/family members!!!
Yeah, that was the most surprising part of my comments was the overwhelming number of people being like "this is just medieval and doesn't happen anymore!!" And I'm like...have you been on youtube and seen youtube comments just for a starter??? lol
24:39 I appreciate your attempt to be fair, but your own examples (and there are many more) illustrate how weak the argument is. If the correlation you think exists is true at all, then there would be an underlying connection between (for example) playing violent video games and violence, but that's been thoroughly debunked (and I know you said it's not a one-to-one ratio, but if you can't establish any correlation than what basis do you have to make the claim?). That doesn't mean the subject isn't worth discussing, but the underlying fear is baseless. That aside, I think Sapkowski is an overrated writer and you're better off playing Witcher 3 as the best example of what the IP can do.
You've done an excellent job in this video, spelling out your argument with patience and giving specific and unambiguous examples to back up your analysis. In short, you're right: Sapkowski does objectify women in both The Last Wish and The Sword of Destiny. Those are the only two Witcher books I've read so far, and that was the one thing that prevented me from fully enjoying them. There's a lot to enjoy about the books -- some good character work, some interesting work around the theme that the humans are the really aggressive monsters, etc. You could even argue that Sapkowski presents a strong and liberated female character in Yennefer. Ciri is fantastic too, as you said. But, as you have carefully and persuasively argued, the instances of objectification are numerous and form a pattern that hindered my full enjoyment and immersion in both books. Thanks for this!
I think in a lot of ways Yennefer weirdly makes the objectification stand out. She's pretty liberated; in fact, many characters talk about and scorn sexual restrictions on women, yet the writing is full of objectification of women's bodies. It's a weird thing.
I wouldn't stress it too much if you don't like the series and don't want to continue. There is too many series in the world to stress out about one series. I'm really interested in seeing how you feel about Joe Abercrombie 's series, since you have the first book now. Or whatever series you plan to read next. I would love to hear about newer series.
Amazing video 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 You said what needed to be said! I only read The Last Wish and was not a big fan but i do enjoy the tv show (it's not perfect but better).
I tried to watch the first episode but he like cut off a persons head on screen and I had to peace out 😂 I am literally SUCH a weakling with on-screen violence and it's an actual issue. I need someone who has seen it before who can tell me when to close my eyes lol
I see your point. I agree, there is content in the witcher books one can see as problematic. I have only one and only one counter argument it is competitively simple and easily said, however i find it rather compelling when one thinks about it. The witcher books describe reality. They describe a horrible, horrible reality in which people are bent and shaped into cruelty on all levels of society. The books show how low humanity can stoop and the show what a terrible, terrible place the past was to live in. BUT they do not grant absolution to how the characters act. Someone raised in what is effectively 13th century poland would not think and act like we do today. Because of this i find problematic behavior in the books to be less an expression of how the author sees the world than an imagination of how this world in the books would have been. It is similar with Warhammer. These are stories without heroes and role models. Instead the are stories from cruel times and places, filled with even crueler people. In this sense, they are more cautionary tales than examples of how to behave. I am not sure if have properly conveyed the though, but that is the outline.
I 100% agree the book is sexist and your critique of that is well founded and articulated. Art however can be sexist, it can objectify - I think the question that you could be asked is whether art that is sexist or objectifies be allowed. My view is you have a choice - you can consume it, enjoy it, hate it, rage against it or make a TH-cam video about it and discuss it. Authors have to retain the artistic right to offend the reader if anything authentic is to be created and readers have the right to call it out, criticise it and close the book so to speak - which is what you've done 👍.
Yeah the idea of censorship is such a weird one. I'm mostly on the fan of the least censorship as possible; you can critique something openly and walk away from it and not be required to consume it.
Oh damn! I really loved the video and the explanation of why is important to notice this kind of thing. Unfortunately I think the next books are like this one, so even though I'm a huge fan of the wittcher books I wont lie and say that the next books are free from the sexualism problems. U have got a new fan
@@Bookborn the tv show and games are too explicit sexually for my liking, can’t get into them. The books just sound boring, nothing special. Maybe someday I’ll try them but there are hundreds of books I’m actually interested in to get to first
During rereads i mostly skip these 2 short story books. The rest are amazing, barely any sexism (always some bcs its a male writer). Ciri is an insanely good character and yennefer is my favourite character of all time... you should really give blood of elves and the main story a chance!
This was my favourite short story in the book, but you’re right the descriptions are pretty ridiculous and objectify a bunch. I’m glad I can now look back at this story with a bit more criticism. I thought the story was tragic though with the ending. The loving Geralt after 2 days thing was really stupid. And Geralt is a dummy. I agree. But that short story nearly made me cry by the end of it. And yes, these characters are flawed people, not meant to be reflections of good people we want to aspire to be like in every facet. I’m glad both you and I can see the good and bad in these stories.
Thank you for making this video. I haven't read The Witcher yet, but it was on my TBR. Now I'm a little nervous. At least I'll be prepared beforehand...
Honestly I think if someone had prepared me for it I would've enjoyed the book a lot more. If I know "hey some things are sexist" then it's like okay I'll just ignore it and focus on the story. But since there seemed to be so little discussion on it, and a lot of push back when I talked about it, it made it somehow MORE noticeable to me than ever, if that makes sense.
It's really interesting the things people take away from these stories. I think, through the scope of our own experiences, the things described seem ridiculous, sexist and problematic, but, personally how I veiwed them, was the experiences through the lenses of the characters in this world. Dandelion is a chauvinist with very little control of his impulses. Geralt is inscure, lonely and often at odds with his own feelings and emotions. Some of the actions described by the dwarves aren't for the sake of showing anything other than the reality of the place the world written around them, it's not to fit an agenda of the writer, it's to just tell what happened, what those characters experienced and what they felt, wanted, heard and had chosen. A Little Sacrifice might be one of my favourite Witcher short stories because it feels so human. It's messy, and the choices the characters made don't always make sense, it's contradictory, it's fallible and the choices made are grey, just like humanity, just like real people; I think the story is excellent for that. I think I related to Essi and Geralt more in those pages than to any other character in any other series I've read. It's easy to say the story is sexist because it describes boobs, or it's sexist because Geralt wants to be offered a whore and has pity sex with someone, but without those things (and without the nuance), the story loses what makes it so special.
Please oh please do more of the books! I love the series, but as a women the sexism makes me very uncomfortable, and I love hearing you talk about it! I love hearing your points! I'm not much of a reader but this books I really fell in love with, but the sexism is a huge turn off.
I may come back to the series because everyone says there are some good stories in there! Plus I've only read the short stories, and not a single full-length novel. But I've also heard that the sexism continues lol
Hey, here's a fact of life: women have breasts, men notice women's breasts - often. Also, didn't you think that the sex scenes and female descriptions were there because the story was following Geralt an adult male, and when Ciri was the main character the storytelling obviously left those out. Isn't that pretty self evident?
Here’s the thing you tend to miss. Depictions of sexism don’t equate to book being sexist. Remember Geralt is not some virtuous hero, he’s just a strong dude trying to do his best in a messed up world, a world that includes sexism. Sapkowsky’s depiction of women have been praised as some of the best women in fantasy. So while Geralt and society may objectify women, that doesn’t mean the author does. So we see these women as Geralt sees them. Let me just tell you plenty of men look to the boobs either first before or pretty soon after meeting a woman Conversely, the “totally not sexist” Lord of the Rings does have ONE strong female character, but her arc is in accepting her role as a traditional woman. Don’t get me wrong, Tolkien was not sexist for his time, but that was for his time. In our time he very much is sexist and it comes across in his books. I feel like his books show his sexism. In the midst of the tales of great deeds women are generally relegated to the sidelines. Even when they aren’t they need to learn the value of their place in life.
I understand your points, but I don’t think it rises to a level where it ruins the stories, and it feels like you’re missing a lot of the story by only focusing on one aspect of it
What an insightful analysis. I just started to re-read the witcher series and couldn't bring my self to finish them because of the points you highlighted. I guess learning about feminism and toxic masculinity does that for you.
Great video, well done. The comment you highlight at 28:36 is an interesting one. I’ve never considered that things that are problematic in the real world (racism, sexism, etc) being treated as normal and not problematic in fantasy were meant to create a starker difference between reality and the fantastical world the author is creating. If the fantastical world has sexism and nobody cares or does anything about it, that does feel wrong and foreign. I’m not sure the commenter is saying sexism doesn’t exist, but sexism in fantasy existing and being acceptable in that world is meant to heighten the fantastical element of that world. Am I interpreting that right?
The end of your video is very powerful. It helps people like me who haven’t experienced these things understand their gravity more seriously. Thanks for taking the time to lay all of that out so that we can all become more aware and careful how we treat each other, and how we choose to consume media.
One advantage of e-books is search (don't worry, I prefer paper). I searched for two words I thought would come up in problematic scenes - breasts & blouse (or I could have looked for straining against...). The Last Wish 7 total, Sword of Destiny 14, and the first novel Blood of Elves 4. In the short stories, pretty much always in disagreeable scenes. In Blood of Elves, mainly Dandelion/Jaskier. I tend to read past romance scenes (not why I'm reading them), so did not pay attention. One throw away scene with Dandelion would be one thing... I agree with the sexism based on your observations. Most fans will say the novels are better than the short stories. I think the sexism improves, but would have to reread to confirm. Reading Blood of Elves is worthwhile, if you want to give it another chance. The novels are more like the 2 short stories you enjoyed. Do you watch the Netflix show? Best -Matt
I have not read the Witcher series since I'm not interested, but I agree with everything you said about sexism. It just gets tiring after awhile. Also some of the comments you got is ridiculous, especially about how there isn't sexism in society now. I think every woman has experienced what you said at the end of the video (me included).
Tiring is the right word. It's not like those things don't exist, but sometimes I don't want to have to confront it on every single page in my fiction.
This was a great video. I especially like the disclaimer that shouldn't need to be said but was about 'you are not sexist if you like the Witcher', how saying the Witcher is sexist is not a personal indictment. For those who argue that society isn't like that anymore, I would argue that society is worse as far as aggressive sexism (things like the examples you listed) than it was when I was growing up in the 90s...I just don't remember my female friends having the same problems to the same degree and I was close to many of them. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but as a teacher I see this kind of behavior all the time, where the male students are literally judged by how many girls they've gotten into bed and it horrifies me when I hear my female students tell tales of other students who 'don't understand consent.' I think this attitude has become more ingrained into our culture and is actually glorified in a lot of the media we consume. Also, as a person with Asperger's, yeah, people with autism can have a hard time relating to people, men and women alike, but I am happily married to a wonderful and brilliant woman and, even though I also don't really understand the whole courting song and dance, she chose to date me without me being super-aggressive. I also think it's pretty easy to tell when someone is autistic to the point of it affecting their behavior beyond what society deems appropriate. I dunno, but I honest to goodness do not understand the compulsion of some people to freaking whistle or shout at women while they pass. Like, has that, in the history of the world, ever gotten even one person a date? Like, ever? Anyway, thanks for the important vid.
I get that's it's hard sometimes to not be defensive over things we love, but I want to be sure people understand that it isn't their own honor they are defending haha. I completely agree. I think men who argue that we should give people a break underestimate a woman's ability to TELL awkwardness vs. threatening. Like have I had an awkward person hit on me? YES and it was so obvious and I didn't feel threatened or offended by some dumb faux-pas or whatever. Intention matters and women can tell immediatly.
Interesting video. I understand your positioning but I feel it’s a bit misguided. I believe is misguided for 2 reasons. 1) it’s based on the Middle Ages where women were looked at as second class citizens. The books are a satire of the Middle Ages and fairy tales which are sexist. 2) A character’s thoughts cannot be thought of as sexist. The objectification of women is a very natural male trait. While some men deny it, it is what it is. The best of us understand that in todays society it’s important to understand women aren’t simply object. At the same time that drive is important for men to maintain a relationship, to court and protect a woman. When we neglect our most basic selves we become victim to them. I definitely agree that there is a male bias and the story plays into male fantasies. It’s a book about a man that’s written by a man based on one of the most misogynistic times in western civilizations history. To think that it would cater to a more subtle narrative is a huge stretch. It’s like watching pro wrestling and expecting to see an Olympic wrestling match.
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"Today I brought receipts."
*pulls out the literary equivalent of a CVS receipt*
Literally LOL'd
yeah, showed us "receipts" but they could have been from anywhere, for anything. She still offered no proof of her claims. I've eviscerated her arguments else where in these comments, not going to bother doing it again.
@@g-mac5456 You didn't even reply elsewhere in the thread.
@@gregoryamato8693 read that again mister. I wrote "in these comments" which is different from "the thread." Explore further in the comments section, and unless you are choosing to not see it you will.
@@g-mac5456 oh, I sure did. Explored the entirety of the comments. Curiously, nothing to be found.
I know I'm late to this video, but this is really insightful into things into things I didn't notice the first time I read The Witcher books, but I cant help see every time I re-read. Now, standard disclaimer before I continue, there are problematic aspects of the stories in The Last Wish and The Sword of Destiny. Context doesn't make any of these aspects okay, but it does explain the jarring change in the writing once you hit The Sword of Destiny short story. I've actually gone down a bit of a rabbit hole on this and found a bit of context for why these two sets of stories are so different from the main series, and indeed, why the last two stories here are significantly less problematic. When Sapkowski original wrote most of these stories they were written in fantasy magazines for what I'm going to loosely (and somewhat inaccurately) describe as "nerds living in their mother's basements in the early 90s in eastern Europe." Sapkowski was not successful yet, and it seems like he took notice that the stories that would sell to these magazine were very sexist and heavy in sex scenes since the readers had little to no interactions with women and subsequently tended to objectify them. The character of Geralt was partially created for the people reading the book to feel like the outcasts of the society could get all the girls. This is similar to how the other popular and powerful men in these stories are often described as lacking in intelligence and are often taken down by Geralt as the outcast. The change comes from the fact that with the commercial success of The Last Wish, Sapkowski felt that he could write a true series of novels in this world. The two stories you note here as being notably less sexist are actually the only two first published in the book itself instead of magazines, as setups for the true book series. That change carries through The Blood of Elves and the rest of the main Saga. We even get excellent character like Milva, whom are used to actually call out the sexism in the past stories in some ways. It really seems to have come down to the confidence to be able to sell stories based on being a good writer rather than sex appeal. Again that doesn't make it okay, or any less problematic, but I think the context is interesting if nothing else.
Milva is awesome but I also love Meve and her contrast to Demavend (who may, or may not be a reference how polish leaders fled the country after german invasion during WWII). Badass female leader fighting from the frontline while her neighbour and supposed ally loses his entire kingdom before fleeing to beg for help
I'm a big Witcher fan but I don't shy away from the problems either. I agree with pretty much everything you said!
Thanks for not hating me lol. I think as we get older it gets easier to admit the things we love have flaws. I know there are some series that I just die-hard defended in my youth and can now say "hey, I absolutely love this series, but...I get what you're saying".
@@Bookborn Discussions also tend to be more interesting and beneficial for the people involved if we can take an objective view and not just say "this is perfect" or "it's complete crap". I'm very open to new point of views differing from mine because I love to broaden my own views! Like I always say: the goal of a debate isn't to win, the goal is to share information and ultimately get out of the debate with a better understanding of whatever the debate was about.
@@MetalCharlo YES I couldn't agree more. When people go into a debate willing to be understanding and not with the attitude "my way or the highway", a lot can be accomplished.
@@Bookborn Finally someone who speaks my language 😎
Is it really a problem or is it just something you don't like? There's a big difference between believing something is a problem and just not liking it. For instance, I'm not that big on reality TV because I personally find it boring as fuck. Do I think it's a problem though? No, it's just something I'm not particularly interested in. 'Problems' of this sort are subjective and what may be a problem to you may not be a problem to someone else.
Outstanding video. I'm a father, brother, and a fiction writer and this video brings a lot of insight. Thank you for speaking out and standing up for yourself so publicly.
Sees title.. 32 min video.. grabs popcorn
BUCKLE UP FOLKS
I would be interested to hear what you think about Ciri's story in The Lady of The Lake... If you ever continue reading these books that is.
Geralt being a bit of a horny boi at certain stages of his life was something I didn't even fully realize before, but these short stories were probably influenced by stuff like Conan the Barbarian etc.
It's really hard to talk about this subject without people feeling defensive. I think you've done a wonderful job of laying out the issues with the writing and I hope people did pay attention to the part where you said you weren't attacking them personally. So much of this stuff has been a part of our culture since forever and that fact has never made it right. I'm really glad that you had the courage to do this video.
I get it, honestly, because I sometimes I knee-jerk get defense when people criticize things I love. I try to be kind about it because I know how it feels haha
Your moral prescription of the author being sexist and critiquing him for positioning the reader through geralts male perspective and sexuality, insinuates that male sexuality is inherently sexist. You are conflating your ideological beliefs that differences between genders and their sexuality is purely a social construct but do not recognize your own bias from your sexual experiences as a woman could distort what sexuality ought to be, (even though you argue using your experiences as a woman of sexual harassment during the video). In claiming impartiality, you implicitly place female sexuality as morally righteous and dismiss the critical importance of aesthetics of female anatomy for male sexuality. Female and male sexuality are distinct and need to be respected as such. They are generalized as differing combinations of biological imperatives AND sociological context.
Male sexuality might cause disgust for you as a woman when you read it, but it's that grittiness that makes it an authentic insight into the mind of the Witcher that is tonally consistent with the vulgarity of its fantasy world.
By just saying it's objectivication you mischaracterize and reduce the moral agency of geralt as a man, the intense sexual feelings upon looking at breasts for a man is not immoral, but rather how the man chooses to compose himself facing those intrinsic desires that CAN be immoral. The narrative theme of "everyone can be monsters" is illustrated here as Geralt is facing the sexual monster within himself, as every man does and while he doesn't get it right every time it provides referencing for the male reader on how to handle their own sexuality. The more references someone has the better men can handle their sexuality in social relations in the real world. Therefore it is moral to express the aesthetic desires of male sexuality within fiction indiscriminately.
Female authors often do the exact same thing with men as well (objectifying their bodies and behaviour) especially in romance novels. I think if we want to be offended by every little thing then it'll ruin a lot of fiction but that's just me as someone who loves the fantasy genre and appreciates when male authors actually attempt to give women agency and unique backstories etc like in the Witcher.
Some of the sci fi from the 60s-70s was way more hardcore sexist. Like in one they're all soldiers in space, but only promiscuous women are allowed to be female soldiers because they are expected to "serve" every male soldier all night :o And this wasn't some weird erotica it was an actual sci fi adventure story and everyone in the story acts like that's a totally reasonable thing for the women to have to do, even the women themselves!! So they have to train just as hard as the men, and work just as hard, but don't get to sleep at all because all night the three of them are "serving" like 20 guys as though it's a privilege D: not only is it very sexist, but also totally impractical because it would make them useless, exhausted soldiers in this extremely dangerous alien terrain.
Sorry to rant, but from my perspective as a female there's sometimes genuine sexism (from both genders!) but as you said, the Witcher is more just explaining the world from Geralt's perspective and never came across as sexist to me personally :)
I know this is an old video and you probably won't read this but I just wanted to say: as a longtime Witcher books fan, I also approached this video very defensively, but you have stated your case very clearly and gave such poignant examples, I had no choice but to acknowledge these are some serious missteps on Sapkowski's part (and I always hated that bit when Yennnefer is tied to a wagon as well). I feel your critique is tough, but fair - and I'm glad you still found things you enjoyed about the stories.
I fully understand why you didn't want to continue but I'd be sooo curious about your opinion on the novels. I say this because I feel like they dig deeper into what you said about actually commenting on the sexism of the world Geralt lives in. There is a whole arc about sorceresses forming a secret all-female Lodge to manipulate political events because they feel like the men in power don't treat them seriously enough and they could do a better job at it. There is a prominent abortion subplot that makes an explicit, unequivocally pro-choice statement. There is a strong theme of men treating Ciri like an object and wanting her just so they can have children with her. There's even some commentary on how patriarchal religions uphold misogyny and a witch-hunting priest gets his due.
Some stuff in there is still quite problematic and hotly debated among fans, particularly in relation to Ciri's story as she grows up, or the way sorceresses cynically use their sexuality and magically enhanced looks, so I couldn't promise it'd be all smooth sailing until the end, but I feel like Sapkowski complicated things a bit in the novels and as he developed as a writer and the story became more about Geralt, Yen and Ciri forming a surrogate family of sorts, he strayed away from the Conan the Barbarian vibe of some of the short stories.
Anyhow, that's my two cents, I really enjoyed the video, cheers. :)
I mostly agree, even though I grew up reading the Witcher (I'm Polish) and I generally have sentiment for this saga, I'd enjoy it more without describing breast over and over again.
The thing is intentional, though. The Witcher is a subversion of the fantasy genre. In Poland, it is often described as "fantasy for people who don't like fantasy" (I'm in this group). Pathos is replaced with farce, Tolkien-like mythological battles with casual events, wise kings with brutal politicians, heroes with professionals, the language of belles-lettres with vulgarisms... and Platonic, romantic love with vulgar sex. And two first books are definitely written purely from the perspective of Geralt, a male perspective, sadly described rather realistically, in terms of what men see first. Geralt saying "oh, perfect boobs!" instead of "oh, a mermaid!" was meant to be a comedic contrast to Tolkien, but it's rather a poor gag.
However, the saga is actually about Ciri, where the supposed hero of the story -- the Witcher, is actually not important to the world (which is emphasized by the ending of Geralt's story). The parts with Ciri show different perspective, not on male-female relationships though, since she's lesbian. It's interesting, in the book it is said, that she and her girlfriend are often having sex, but the act is not actually present, only one influential to the story time. So it's not like horny Sakowski decided he'll write now lesbian erotic book for men. Be warned, though, this one time may be a bit too much for you, it's not a fairy tale after all.
Thanks it's really interesting hearing the perspective of a Polish person! The only thing I don't like about The Witcher is I can't speak Polish so I can't read the books in their original language 😭 I heard the English translations aren't very good compared to the originals :c But I still love them ^_^ My favourites are Last Wish, Sword of Destiny, and Season of Storms. All the ones mostly about Geralt and Jaskier and their bizarre adventures :D
@@Vexarax Sapkowski is known to have an extensive vocabulary. His books are a beautiful mix of flowery language and elaborate swearing. Haven't read the Witcher saga in English, but I heard the translation doesn't do justice to the original. :<
Last Wish, Sword of Destiny -- we have similar tastes, my favourites :D Season of Storms is great, I like it more than the saga storywise, but it doesn't match the rest of the books in terms of the language. It's probably because it has been written long after the rest. It is in fact so different, that there's a theory that Sapkowski invented the story, and someone helped him write it.
@@McSwey I didn't even notice the difference in storytelling in Season of Storms but maybe it's because of the translation?? It went into a lot more of the lore which I loved!! I am listening to the audiobooks again and will keep my ears out for differences, but yes if the translations in English aren't very good then that may be why I didn't notice a difference. I wish I could speak and read Polish just to read the books in their original language ^_^
Fellow Polish here. I also think that depiction of sorceress in The Witcher was also meant to be a slap in catholic morality we have. That's why sorceresses are sexy, horny, often naked and in power, to challenge the traditional view on women place in society. It also appeals to men fantasy. I don't have that much of a problem with this series, because it was extremely progressive for its time. But get that to the modern English-reader it seems sexist.
@kdnu27 I don't remember sorceresses to be horny and often naked but sexy, really powerful, very smart and often help kings to rule with advices etc.
Up to the swod of desteny it was ment to be poviedka (i dont know how to translate the word to keep the meaning), its suposed to do the world building show how characters think and what they look at. Geralt doesnt think about women when Ciri is arund, Dandelion doesnt sexualize Little-Eye because she cares for her as a sister, and Zerrikanians do as Jackdaws tells them because they want to because they love and are devoted to there Golden Dragon. Yes some things are little unnecesary but other are needet to paint a character. bdw nineties in central Europe is a log time ago considering this book writhen three years after fall of communism
There are definitely parts of The Witcher series that I wish were not in there, but I still don’t know if I would remove them. Yes, women are objectified, but so is everyone (just in other ways). Men are valued in this world only for how they are able to work/fight, while women are valued only for romance. Nobody cares about the entirety of a person, they all just care about how they can “use” other people. This stereotyping is harmful, but I do think the series as a whole wants readers to realize it is harmful.
No, you should not treat women like they are treated in The Witcher. Also, you should not treat men like they are treated in The Witcher. The point is that this is a horrible world, and seeing the characters trying to survive in this horrible world is what makes the main series probably my favorite fantasy series (I also did not love The Last Wish).
I also think many fans overly lionize Geralt. He is very imperfect, and is proven wrong repeatedly (the famous quote about not choosing between evils is proven idiotic and false by the story it is said in). Geralt’s relationships are portrayed as unhealthy (I still insist his relationship with Yen was toxic from the beginning), and his handling of gender is commented on at least a couple times (one I remember is the training/education of Ciri).
I think in the main series (the part I like) the characterization is better, but there is also a lot more assault (including sexual violence). I feel it is done purposely to show how dark the world is and how certain events are only making it darker (and one scene puts you in the mind of the assaulted in a visceral way that felt so real and meaningful to me), so I don’t think it’s “just exploitation”, but it is a bit of an uncomfortable read.
I understand this defense and reading of it. For some reason, the Witcher just doesn't personally read to me like that. It feels more objectifying in nature rather than showing how crappy the world was. This is just my "feelings" which is like...not scientific and not great but I just can't shake it, if that makes sense. I've read novels where I felt that the objectification/sexism were a part of the world building, and here it just didn't feel that way.
I agree about Geralt and Yen being toxic. I didn't know people thought it was a great love story. I think it's an interesting love story, though - but I haven't read enough of it obviously to make huge judgements.
I agree with you too. I never thought of a lot of these things until seeing this set of videos. I think Geralt is an ideal flawed person. The main series portrays this well, but also the main series gets worse with the sexual assault. Especially with how many near misses Ciri has. Geralt is also only valuable for his ability to cause harm to perceived enemies. I'd be interested to see what Sapkowski has to say about how he intended this series to be received.
Sorry to contradict. But I do have a friend named Gerald, who pronounces his name with a hard G. :)
This has probably gotten worse in the age of audio books though. Many of us just latch on to whatever pronunciation the narrator uses.
I was recently blown away watching a Daniel Greene video where he interviewed Michael Sullivan, who wrote Riyria Revelations. He confessed that he usually gives zero thought to the pronunciation and chooses names that "look good" on the page. He went so far as to say when readers ask how to pronounce something, he just turns the question around and asks them how they pronounce it, and tell them they are right.
I'm mostly just impressed you watched until the very very end lol. Shoot, I thought for sure I had you guys with that one...but I guess back to the drawing board.
See, Sullivan is doing it right. Just going with the flow and sowing chaos among his fandom.
This is something I did not noticed in the Witcher, (it is mostly part of prose and I’m less observant of prose). I do think that it might be negligence by the author rather than malice. I know some of the stories were first published independently in a fantasy magazine, so I hypothesize that the edit they got were lacking. That might explain why the last stories (setting the saga they might published first as part of the collection) are different.
Another explanation is a failed attempt in social commentary. Supporting this notion is the fact that Geralt himself is subject to sexualization and objectification in the books. Regarding to the second, he was stripped of his bodily autonomy, forcefully turned into a mutant. He is regarded by society as devoid of a heart, of scruples and of his own free will, which is mention again and again. This leads me to hypothesize that the objectification of minor characters was supposed to draw attention to the objectification of the main character as of a commentary about the human condition.
Some of the stuff I can’t explain. I do think that a little sacrifice started on the right side of the issue of sexual assault. Geralt actions was presented at first as nasty and wrong. Geralt is the protagonist but he was never presented as prefect or unmalleable. The continuation of the story does undo its good start and sends a problematic message.
I do hope you will continue into the Sage. The saga presents a barrage of powerful and independent female character. I searched my Ebook copy of the next book for key words regarding the female anatomy and I do think it got better on the issue. I would like to warn that this is issue is one that I less prone to notice. There is social commentary on gender issues in the books. There also some exploration of gender issues, some of it better some less, but I think it is exhilarating to find a good faith (and somewhat liberal) exploration of those issues in a book published in deeply religious and conservative country. I would like to mention that even the notion of sexual objectification of women is minorly addressed in the next book. (a morally ambiguous male is being reproached on staring at a women breast).
Geralt's lack of bodily autonomy is interesting but hasn't been explored a lot yet in the books I've read; but again, as I'm just focusing on objectification, for it to be "Equal" it would be like every male's genitalia described when you meet them. It sounds absolutely ridiculous when I say that, but then again, every speaking female character's breasts were described.
I agree with some of your points; there are many intentional commentaries about sexism in the Witcher, but I think where it fails is when it *isn't* doing that, but rather just writing in a way that objectifies the women it explains. It honestly doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not...it does it. I think if it's unintentionally, the proves it's more on the author. Again, the books aren't bad, but it's just overwhelming sometimes when I read it.
I agree that at first, it seemed that A Little Sacrifice was going the right direction. It seemed like it was making a point about it; but having Essi actually be in love with the Witcher undercut any sort of point that could be made, which was super disappointing. Honestly, if that whole short story wasn't in the book, I probably would've written off the other instances of objectification as whatever or eye-rolls. That sort of cemented it for me.
Well the author is a male and is writing a book that he would like to read and male are visual.. thus that is the end product you get. Personally I enjoy that side of the Witcher and also in ASOIAF .. I dislike living inside the head of a character who is always decent because lets be honest every person has a dark pervy side. Also if it was the other way around, females continuously describing males body parts then that would be probably more of an erotica genre thing for female readers for the most part. It is what it is, there are different readers target audience and the writer shouldn’t be politically correct rather true to his target audience
Hey Bookborn
You did an excellent video, very detailed, well proven and with good remarks. I’m very glad I’ve watched it, most of the things you pointed out, I missed them completely.
I have read the Witcher saga few times, first back in the nineties and maybe I could say something in the defence of Sapkowski. Most of the people miss completely, what the Witcher short stories are in fact.
Sapkowski wasn’t an author, when he started writing them. He was working as a foreign trader, and he did the first story on his son request for a short story contest in Fantastyka magazine. He had a strong feeling, he could do better (sell better) than most of polish authors did at that time. His Witcher story got him 3rd place, but much more prise from readers than first two places ever got. So in next few years he did several witcher short stories for the same magazine. They were printed separately from time to time, so each one had to be short, have interesting story, some sex and witty humour. After fall of communism we had initial “wild” period of western brutal capitalism, where “sex sells” was literally everywhere. TV, billboards, magazines, you name it. And you can see this in these short stories. People do forget, that at the time of writing, they were not intended to be collected in the books, they were formed into few years later. I believe by the time of last two you mentioned, he was already working on the first book, and that’s the reason they are different (and I love them too).
Only after 3-4 years of publishing short stories he started to believe he could become a full-fledged writer and live completely of his works (which was not an easy task in Poland at that time - most authors were very poor indeed). The books he wrote from 1992 are completely different to short stories. In fact, when you check reviews, there are many people now who love his short stories and hate the books and many more who do the opposite. And there are of course thousands of hardcore Witcher 3 fans who just love them all for the world and characters he created.
Sapkowski developed his writing skills very much in following years. In my opinion, he became a formidable master of written language, creating beautiful sentences with excellent vocabulary and vast knowledge of foreign languages, history, literature and many other story important details. He is very dedicated, wrote his books on a very regular basis with great concepts and storytelling.
I love his hussite trilogy, which is among the most beautifully written books I ever read in polish. I have read that much is lost in the English translations and I can easily imagine that, knowing how much polish language differs in sentences constructions and word meanings alterations with cases, which is completely absent in English.
You should give a chance his later books, I have a strong feeling you could like them much more than the short stories.
This is really fascinating insight thank you! Only a Polish person could really know this I think. Sounds like the first Witcher stories were written almost for a Playboyesque audience. The differences in Polish literature based on the fall of communism are also fascinating
Great, thoughtful, precise, well-supported critique.
Thanks for the support!
I thought this video was really well done. You were thorough and clear about your problems. And I really appreciate that you cited specific examples instead of just making blanket statement as many do when talking about things like this.
So really nice work ^^
Thank you!
I know this is a very old video now but for what it's worth regarding a comment you made near the end: the rest of the series is indeed more like those last two stories. The focus is on Geralt and Ciri's relationship and their respective adventures, and there are a lot of great characters who grow over time with a real sense of journey and adventure that you don't get from Last Wish or Sword of Destiny since those are sort of more like short story anthologies. I won't say that the general chauvinism is completely gone but (without spoiling) it is noticeably different and there's at least one female character in particular that comes to mind who I feel has a lot of depth and has to confront some issues that the author kind of impressed me with in his handling given the track record. It may not be your cup of tea still but it's definitely one of my favorite fantasy series' and with you getting into A Song of Ice and Fire now I think maybe you'd enjoy the main series Witcher books if you decide to give them a chance.
That all said I really enjoyed this video because I think it's easy as a guy growing up with stuff all over to become pretty desensitized to it and when this sexism is really demonstrated like this it's certainly thought-provoking. It really does put into perspective how much contrast there is between this sort of writing and some stories that do a lot more justice to women. That said though, the rest of the series does get better.
I hated this about Dresden files as well, even though it doesn't affect me personally I found it took me out of the book every few pages when it came up (which in the first few chapters was literally every new character), so I couldn't get into the actual good bits of the story. I like books that make me stop reading and think about messages, but when its actual issues just been ignored or even promoted I just find myself getting annoyed at the book and not wanting to pick it up. Thank you for this review, I was considering getting into the witcher series, but from the sounds, I'm not gonna enjoy it.
You're the second or third person to mention the Dresden files on this video, and I have the first book and was planning to start it soon...so now I'm curious how i'll feel about it, since I hadn't heard this comment previously on that series.
@@Bookborn literally I chapter two it's made out like the characters super moral and good because he says 'I come from an old school of thought. I think me ought to treat women like something other then just shorter, weaker men with breasts' and then a few pages on (And this is mild spoilers but like I say, chapter 2 so up to you if you read on)
So a few pages on he walks I to a room where two people have had their chests exploded from the inside, it's the most gruesome sight he's ever seen but before we learn of that he describes the dead corpse as 'body leaned back, bowed like a dancers, the curves of her breasts making a lovely outline' like the auther chose to prioritise telling us that over the actual details of the murder in a crime scene investigation. I was super hyped to get into the series but just found it disappointing and wouldn't recommend it. Could make a good video discussing it tho, since the detail of this has helped my choice in not reading witcher, I wish I'd known about it before I got so excited about it.
@@samk7721 Good to know and also that gruesome scene you described grossed me out and it probably wasn't even as graphic as the book so I've got an uphill battle coming I supposed 😂
I only read the first book so far and have just started this one, I didn't really get the idea that the previous book was sexist, although i can see where someone would get that idea. From what I can remember, the fact that some characters were objectified wasn't treated as a good thing at all, but I can't defend a lot of the things mentioned in this video. To be fair, I do tend to miss details in a lot of stories so it might have just went over my head.
I think we tend to notice things that more directly relate to us; so maybe you haven't received a lot of direct sexism in your real life making it less noticeable in your fiction. Either way, I enjoyed this book a lot more than the first, so interested to see if it's the same for you!
@@Bookborn Yes, that's definitely true that I have not experienced what you, so I could be missing it due to a lack of experience. I'll pay a lot more attention to it as I read this book soon.
@@uspresdientcentral Yeah, I've noticed, for example, people talking about bad representation for those who have physical disabilities and it's all stuff I've never noticed because it doesn't apply to me, ya know?
For me, reading the first book, it was how every single monster is a woman. It read like a primal fear of women and femininity. Particularly in the way that Snow White and Belle are turned into the villains. It became a matter of going "ok, new story, where's the woman that's gonna secretly be a monster." It became the trope in itself. Belle is the monster. Not the man who raped a woman and got turned into a Beast. wtf
As 30-or-so year olds, I think we have a tendency to underestimate how long ago the 90s were lol. But yes I agree the book feels like it was written before then, even if a lot of progress has also been made in the last two decades.
Good analysis by the way, glad you found some enjoyment out of those two stories at least!
Wasn't there a meme a few years ago about how 90's babies always just assume the 90s were ten years ago. 'Cuz that's deffo me lol
@@Bookborn i was born in 1987 in the USSR and believe me the 90s in ex-USSR and Poland were not the same as the 90s westerners know and remember. In terms of progressiveness and thought it's more like the 50s/60s in the USA. We were behind the iron curtain for many decades after all. We only got free access to western stuff in the late 80s
.It's more westernized and modern now but you have to remember that Poland got free from communism only in 1989. Also, Slavic culture is a bit different in general.
@@nicktankard1244 Excellent points to consider. I'm definitely viewing this from an extremely western perspective.
@@Bookborn Objectifying women is not a western issue, never was. Like Nick, I was also born behind the iron curtain, though 10 years before him, and in Hungary, so there are small differences in our perceptions of the 90s, but I would say we were no more that 10 years behind the zeitgeist of the west, and it was quickly disappearing. In all other aspects of society, it was fairly easy to catch up. But racism, homophobia, and sexism still appear strongly in eastern europe. Right winged parties in Russia, Poland and Hungary use tropes from these fields to fuel the anger of their supporters, and to stay in power. But at the same time, these things were very much frowned upon by the inteligentzia and literary high society by the 80s for sure, so in the 90s, lots of much better content was widely available, and so I tend not to give a pass to anyone.
First story about Witcher was published in 1986 in "Fantastyka". I think intention was to go against idealisation of fantasy world building and to include tragedy of characters living in brutal world of injustice, powerplay and constant war. Despite all efforts none of characters may live "happy ever after". Book is strongly influence by Polish literature and history. I think, that Sapkowski was hoping for contrary to what his story was.
I noticed that you repeatedly insert the most offensive kinds of sexism into the story yourself. Examples:
Just because Geralt gets to choose between the bodyguards doesn't mean they don't get to choose. You said that they don't get to choose, not the book.
Just because the sexual desirability of each female is always an issue (your point about describing their breasts every time is spot on), it never says that this is the only thing women are good for. You said that, not the book.
Yes, there are definitely misogynistic themes through out the books, but it seems like your imagination makes these themes into much scarier monsters than they otherwise would be. It seems like you *want* the books to be as horribly sexist as possible and actively put in effort to make them so.
Excellent video and I wish more people were open to have this conversation in the fantasy community. Unfortunately, the genre has so many problems of this type that people push it off as normal and get defensive when it is brought up. You can criticize something you like and with critique will come better stories. I enjoyed the first two Witcher books well enough but could not really put a finger on why I did not wish to continue. You explained so much that was going on in my mind. Amazing analysis.
You made so many great points which can be applied to the genre as a whole. Unfortunately, there is not enough space in the youtube comment area to elaborate but there was so many things you said that had me screaming "Yes that's exactly it!"
I am curious if you have read the Dresden Files? Because oh boy, does that series have its problems.
OHhhh NO I'm going to start the Dresden files after I finish First Law. Guess I'm in for a ride. Maybe I won't comment on that one, though, I don't need another fandom coming for me 😅
It is such an issue in adult fantasy. Most of it I just brush off with an eye roll and try and ignore so that I can enjoy the larger story. But sometimes it just culminates too much and ruins the enjoyment. One of my commenters said it really nicely: "sometimes authors use female suffering as world building". It's like...rape and sexual abuse and what have you definitely have a place in stories, but authors recently have been less thoughtful about when they include that, imo, and often use it as a way to auto make their stuff more grim. Anyway I don't know if I'm explaining myself but I always appreciate when authors make conscious efforts about it.
@@Bookborn Absolutely and I think that people use grimdark as an excuse to overlook certain things in fantasy and put it off as part of the world. I found what you said very telling. That we can imagine a fantasy world with magic, dragons, etc but are thrown off with the idea of gender equality in a fantasy because it is so called historically "inaccurate" 🙄
If you want some fantasy that deal with gender equality I recommend the following
The Calculating Stars by Mary Robinette Kowal. A mixture of historical fiction/scifi that centers around a women fighting to be an astronaut in the 1950s.
The Golden Key by Kate Elliot, Jennifer Roberson, and Melanie Rawn. A standalone that narrates three different generations of two different families. An important theme of the book is how women must fight for recognition of their talents and fight the gender structure of their world.
The Empress of Salt and Fortune by Nghi Vo. A novella that chronicles the rise of power of an Empress in a patriarchal society. Such a beautiful novella with fantastic prose. Will most likely be a candidate for an Hugo award this year.
@@afantasybabble6222 Ooooh thanks for these recommendations, they sound GREAT, especially that Novella... (but I'm a sucker for a novella so)
@@Bookborn Now is the time to jump into Nghi Vo's hype train. She is probably my most hyped new author alongside Alix E Harrow. And later this year she will release her first full length novel, The Chosen and the Beuatiful, a Great Gatsby retelling with a queen Asian American protagonist.
@@afantasybabble6222 Literally just went and bought the novella. I jumped on the Harrow hype train immediately after only reading her first novel, so I'm ready for a Vo hype train. (Also...that cover 😍)
When I saw the title of your first witcher video my eyes rolled so hard they almost came unstuck from my head.. but after having watched both now, you made some good points and the only one I think you got wrong was regarding the women's "heaving breasts" he's describing them breathing heavily, not there tits both men and women have breasts armor that covers the front torso is called a breastplate.. I hope you read the rest of the story and I look forward to your review!! You've gained a sub :)
I won't lie that I got a little pedantic in the end - after hearing breast so many times, I was like "couldn't he say chest heaving??" - but normally, that phrase wouldn't catch me off guard, it was more in relationship to everything else. I'm glad I could redeem myself after my first video, which I'll be the first to admit wasn't done the best :)
To be fair, the phrase that would be used would be "heaving breast" adding the extra "s" at the end still refers to "breasts" (only present in women, although I'm being a little reductive) rather than "breast"; something that everyone has.
That's a fair point
Honestly I think most people would tell you that Sword of Destiny is the best Witcher book. It isn't the overwhelming favorite, but it is probably the most common pick. My favorite was Tower of the Swallows, but that is also a lot of peoples least favorite.
Tbh, sexism aside, I enjoyed this one a lot in terms of cohesion, world-building, and characterization.
The quotes about the breasts heaving might just be a translation thing like saying someone’s chest is heaving as in they are breathing hard. Idk thought cause I’m not Polish and haven’t read it in the original language.
I definitely considered that, but with her character there was never an appearance where her breasts weren't mentioned haha. So translation or not, it's just an interesting thing. There could very well be a chance that the original translations don't have many of these problems...
Okay, fine. This video convinced me to subscribe to your channel.
The fact that this is the video is such a hot take. Usually this makes people run from my channel 😂
I can't tell you whether it's worth continuing I'm afraid. I bought most, if not all, of the books when they were in a kindle sale, and my brother, who is a fan (probably more of the games to be honest, but has read the books) suggested starting at Blood of Elves, which I believe is the beginning of the major story arc. I couldn't finish it. And I'll be perfectly frank, I can't even remember if there was anything sexist in what I did read, but I just could not get on with it at all. I found the writing style really jarring, I couldn't work out if it was like that in the original text or it was the translation. Whichever it was it meant that I couldn't concentrate on what was going on in the story (probably why I can't recall if anything sexist happened in it) as I was regularly frustrated with the tone, structure and language usage. I may revisit them at some point, but I am in no hurry.
I did love the story and characters of the Witcher 3 game though. Especially Zoltan. (Should I be offended that foul mouthed dwarves and ogres are regularly portrayed with Scottish accents? Probably, but he made me laugh so I'll let it slide!)
On a more serious note I'm sorry to hear of your own experiences, particularly being followed, that must have been scary especially when your child is there with you! Sorry to say, there are some messed up people in the world. Stay safe.
Oh, and this may amuse you (or maybe not if you are a fan!), I got called sexist on another youtube channel recently (a science one) when the host made a video talking about the science behind some Taylor Swift lyrics. I commented that making me learn about Taylor Swift songs to get my science fix was a cruel and unusual punishment. Apparently that makes me sexist according to one person (not the host I should probably point out), so I'm probably not the best person to discuss these things with you as I am clearly a terrible human being!
lol you are definitely not sexist if you don't like Taylor Swift. Those kind of arguments just hurt the real conversation around feminism and I find it very annoying. You do, however, just simply have no taste. JK but not cause I'm a huge deep dark secret Swiftie and I can bring you to my ted talk about how she's actually a very good song writer and just her famous songs are very bad because of her choices. But that has nothing to do with this video and I apologize for bringing you into this conversation you did NOT want.
ANYWAY a lot of huge witcher fans say that the translation is just bonkers in english. Apparently there's a better one online a fan or something made? But I don't have time in my life to read things like that online so I'm just walking lol
@@Bookborn Not the first time I've been told I have no taste, and I doubt it will be the last! That's ok though as I know that everyone that doesn't agree with me is clearly wrong. ;)
You lost me at ted talk I'm afraid. I'm guessing that is either a TS fan phrase or an American colloquialism I'm not familiar with? And I have no problem having a conversation about Taylor Swift or her music, hell my comment was made in jest even if I am not a fan.I just found their reply rather surreal tbh.
And that's interesting about the alternative translation, I may check that out for comparison at some point, but I can understand why you wouldn't be bothered. I'm slightly invested in the characters through the game, so I'd still like to know more about them, even though the game and books are separate entities.
Totally agree with all of this! I read the first three books and kept feeling like maybe it was just my own problem that the way the women were written bothered me so much.
It's always our problem and not the author's somehow, isn't it 😉
You are not alone. It is a shitty way to portray female characters
I think the book would have been markedely improved if the little eye/meemaid story had been omitted. Also, thank you for the explanations regarding sexism. As a male-bodied person its easy to overlook or just roll my eyes and move on because I haven't been the target of it.
Still one of my favorite series of all time, but it's got problems and flaws. Especially early on
I loved this video. I felt the same way while reading The Witcher's books. There's sexism in all the books, unfortunately. I got sick of reading about rape (not explicit or shown, but mentioned every few pages). It's a shame, because I think the main arch of the series is great! I just didn't like how it was told, and I also felt a little violent while reading more than a bunch of times.
Someone commented on my other witcher video "it's tiring when people use women's suffering as worldbuilding" and it just nailed my feelings on it so much. Often it's not used as an event or a plot device, but mere world building, like you said, and that's when it's just exhausting.
@@Bookborn Exactly! Mere worldbuilding. Women being sexualized or demonized, or being assaulted as an accepted truth, causing no effect to the plot whatsoever. Just being stated, so you know that's normal. It was really frustrating to read, honestly. It could have been a great series.
I'm not particularly bothered by this sort of thing, and think some of it is justifiable in the books; the society of the Witcher is meant to be awful and people do awful things to one another.
Despite that, I still got fed up with Ciri (and other important female characters) being threatened with rape from every evil character she encountered (aside from Bonhart, he was fine with just torturing and enslaving Ciri). It's like Sapkowski just couldn't fathom a female character being in danger without also being threatened with sexual assault.
@@Bookborn true, nothing that upsets me in any way should be used as worldbuilding
Thank you for being female fantasy fans' voice on this. I appreciate it. This was a great video and it made me a subscriber. I didn't read The witcher, but I am having similar problems with The Dresden files. How hard is for an author to understand that around half of potential readers out there do NOT want to read about female breasts and/or asses descriptions.
To put it simply to all potential authors out there: When you write in a sexist manner, when breast, lips and ass descriptions come along with every female character introduced...you are making a big chunk of your readers feel like objects, less than a person. That feels very, very, VERY bad. No one wants to read to feel treated like crap.
This is so funny because I just finished the first Dresden files book. It wasn't as bad as the Witcher but yes, the casual sexism is so obnoxious. I'm tired of people acting like we are over sensitive. When you have to deal with it in daily life, when it's SO ubiquitous in your "escape" it gets very annoying.
@@Bookborn Exactly, some men will call us oversensitive. But this shit is hard to stomach when you have to deal with sexism every single day of your life. "Want an "escape" into fantasy worlds? Too bad, sexism is all over those worlds as well"....I am just tired you know. Once again thank you for your video.
I have several issues with your video, however lets start with some things I think we can agree on. With the Witcher series I didn't finish it in part because of some of the reasons you listed here. While we seem to disagree with what is permissible to have in literature. I will agree that most of your issues with the Witcher should not be tolerated IRL. I also am perfectly fine in saying all the things you listed that happened you should not have happened to you.
My first issue is with your examples of sexism. Your words "In books this might take different forms, It might be that women just aren't really present in the story.". Are you actually saying that books actively require a fully fleshed out realized female character arc or it's sexist?
Secondly I have a problem with how you are trying to define objectification. In general I agree with treating people as per Kant's categorical imperative. Treat everyone as an end unto themselves. Their is however a very serious problem when you start trying to apply it not only to your actions, but your internal thoughts and feelings. No one can treat everyone as an end unto themselves unless you are a hermit.
Lastly I am confused about your issue with women being described (presumably by Geralt) in a sexual manner. I am perfectly fine with you getting annoyed with it being brought up way too much. Is your issue with it being constantly brought up by the author? Or are you unhappy with Geralt noticing women in a sexual manner?
Would Game of Thrones be improved if every single scene there was discussion about what is the dick size of the people in the story.
Excellent video! I loved it.
Again, I love the witcher world and I have read all the books but what you are talking about is true, we [readers] should spot this on future reads, and at least be aware of the problem.
haha I know is unbelievable but there is gonna be people out there who is going to fight you on the topic even with all that evidence.
Keep up the good work.
Thank you for being so kind! I certainly don't want people to not like or be fans of the witcher! Just something we should all notice!
I read all of the Witcher and I enjoyed most of it but I completely agree with you, the way it treats women always felt wrong to me but I guess that's just a lot easier to ignore when the real-life implications of that sexism don't affect you personally
Author and TH-camr Elizabeth Wheatley who is a proud feminist completely disagrees with you. She’s also read the entire series. I haven’t finished the short story books but I did finish the series and it’s amazing. Calls Sapkowsky’s women “some of the best women in fantasy and written by a man”
The objectification is ine thing, the thing I hate the most about this series is that every female character is the same character with different hair colors. All of them are power hungry liars that have the hots for Geralt. Or ugly.
Sadly true… as an asexual this and the frequent sex/nudity puts me off from reading the series. I adore the world however, it's a very good setting and good opportunity to speak up about discrimination, prejudice and progressivism, with a grim contrast to fairytales. I also enjoy the investigation and beast slaying in the game, but I wish the women were more like actual people instead of walking talking dolls. Also Geralt deserves true and honest love
My favourite female character is Shani, but I can't recall much about her either
Thank you Bookborn, this was a thoughtful well presented video. It gave me a lot to think about.
As a man those things did not stand out to me as much when I first read those two Witcher books, but my wife read it and was not very happy...
I was confused. She sort of explained, I still did not really understand, but in some of the other fiction books I slowly started seeing the things she spoke about.
I did not realize male authors did these things, over, and over, and over... Now that it has been brought to my attention, I can understand why it is upsetting.
I appreciate that you took the time to clearly explain these points.
I'm a female but I love the Witcher books and don't really see any of the things outlined as sexism per-se because the books (the first two especially) are based on European fairytales and actually work hard to give women more agency and unique backstories etc as opposed to the original fairytale versions of themselves. But if one wants to go hunting for sexism then either gender is often objectified in some ways depending on the author. Men's bodies and motivations are often described in extremely sexist ways when women write (especially in romance novels for some reason) so one would have to avoid a lot of fictional works if one wanted to entirely avoid all forms of sexism!
:)
@@Vexarax you do have a good point.
@@VicRibeiro777 I was reading all the comments here last night (it was 4am and I had insomnia, haha) and someone from Poland was saying the original books are actually meant to be satire of high fantasy, like satire of Tolkien etc? So it's meant to come from this sort of mildly (but comically) misogynistic male viewpoint ie where Tolkien would make everyone behave themselves and act honourably, Geralt will see a mermaid and think "great boobs!" lol.. which let's face it, many men (and probably many women too) would actually be thinking that :p Sadly I think a lot of the satirical nature may have been lost in translation?
And the double layer of irony is the stories are adaptations of old European fairytales which are one of the hugest culprits of misogyny (I adore old fairytales but women are always treated horribly by everyone in them!!!) and he actually did a great job of giving women from the fairytales agency and unique backstories etc.. for example the tale with Renfri (where he ends up committing the m@ssacre in Blavicon) is a retelling of Snow White, Renfri is Snow White. And of course the vampire in Grain of Truth is Beauty, from Beauty and the Beast. And so on and so forth.
The Polish commenters were also discussing the political climate at the time which apparently was another reason the books are written the way they are. I actually came out of the comments section of this video with an even greater appreciation of the Witcher books than I had before I watched this video :D
(And commenting helps small creators with the algorithm so I always try to leave many comments under well thought-out videos like this one) :)
@@Vexarax with well thought out replies too, ;) thanks. I know how translations can impact a book. I knew some polish people complained about how it was translated.
I haven't heard about the argument that it was supposed to be a satirical take on Tolkien.
Thanks.
I think ur projecting on the book
Lots to jump into here!
Firstly I just want to say that this was a fun video and it's always a breath of fresh air to hear different viewpoints, whether they align with my own or not, and I think you articulated your feelings very clearly and well!
On the issue of the books being sexist, this is honestly, in my opinion and from the people I've spoken to, so hard for me to get a definitive answer on, since the biggest fans of the series I've known have been my ex-wife, two ex-girlfriends and multiple female friends, all of whom absolutely adored the books and Geralt's character, and a few of them actually had opinions on the polar opposite side of the spectrum, citing that the books were actually feminist, because of the prominent and powerful female characters of the series such as Yennefer, Ciri, Calanthe and Triss.
Being male myself, I can't honestly claim to be an authority on any level as to whether or not something is being sexist towards women or not, as I obviously haven't lived the experiences a woman would live, and as a result of that, don't see life through the same lens. What I would offer is that yes, many characters in the series are chauvinistic, which is a point used in many fantasy works (especially those written by men) to showcase that a character is corrupt, evil, bad, or otherwise flawed, as it's intended to play to the reader's sense of proper morals so that we feel strongly against them.
This is done because men largely have a hero complex, ESPECIALLY fans of fantasy. We often daydream about coming in and saving the day, sometimes when women aren't involved at all, but more often when they are, because movies, stories, and fairy tales we heard growing up would often have the "knight in shining armor" type character. We could also argue this is problematic, and it could be, but I can't stress enough that the point of this kind of fantasy isn't usually to win the woman's love, but more so just to look and feel like a hero, to feel important, which is why men often write male characters who die to save the ones they love, because even though they won't be around to see the fruits of their sacrifice, they got to die knowing the people they cared for would be safe and remember him as a hero. What does any of this have to do with your comment about sexism? It's just an admittedly long-winded explanation meant to illustrate why they like to use women being mistreated to depict a character's badness, it's to play to the male sense of heroism and make us want to protect the female character(s) being mistreated and solidify their objectifier/assailant as being the bad guy. So while this is done to appeal to a male fantasy, it's not the one most people would expect, as it's not the reader (usually, hopefully) wishing they could freely abuse women in that same way.
As for whether or not the author is sexist, it's really hard to say if Andrzej Sapkowski is sexist. I know he grew up in Poland during the aftermath of WWII and was practically raised exclusively by women, and used many of them as a template for the more complex, deep, and powerful women in his stories, which many could and do argue is a point against him being sexist, while others like to highlight the same things you have, about him using damsels in distress and women being groped and assaulted as proof that he is sexist (while others will argue these acts are narrative tools), so the issue seems practically impossible to get an objective answer to, as everyone interprets differently and many don't define sexism the same way. I would say personally that the book has a sexist society and many sexist characters, with problematic acts against both the male and female sexes at different points.
For example, you cited many instances of women being objectified and assaulted by terrible men, and while that's all fair and valid, I would also cite the acts against men, such as the dryads taking men for breeding, including one who was basically crippled and couldn't effectively resist, and the alternative to being used for breeding stock and eventually released, is to be killed, and they even lose interest in Geralt upon learning that he's sterile, because men only hold limited sexual value to them and without it, aren't worth investing in. That particular event even happened in this book, and during one of the short stories you mentioned wasn't problematic towards women. Another (in)famous example is with Triss Merigold and Geralt of Rivia. In the next book, Blood of Elves, it's HIGHLY implied Triss used magic to coerce and subdue Geralt into a sexual relationship in the past, effectively magically date raping him and during Blood of Elves, continues to exhibit predatory behavior towards Geralt and makes multiple unwanted and unreciprocated advances, which illustrates that Sapkowski wasn't exclusive with what gender he subjected to these kinds of treatments.
I bring this up because I know it could spark a lot of debates, is Sapkowski sexist if he doesn't discriminate which sex he objectifies and violates? Or is this done to help show the reader that his world is grimdark? Is he now sexist towards both sexes or is he sexist towards neither as a result of these decisions? Ultimately, I believe it largely comes down to the reader's interpretation. I admittedly tend to fall on the side of saying that his incredible female characters, two of which actually get more on-page time than Geralt does for over half the series (Yen and Ciri are dominant in Time of Contempt, Baptism of Fire, Tower of Swallows and Lady of the Lake) make this one of the more female empowering stories in the series.
Does the series continue to objectify women? Well, yes and no, the rest of the series is more in line with Sword of Destiny, however, women do still get assaulted from time to time, in one instance even by another woman, which many praise the series for because it was willing to depict an act others say never happens, but it's always done under the light of illustrating that the character doing it lacks morals, and this approach to writing works because most men (who for a long time at least, were the vocally dominant majority of fantasy readers and thus who they were written mostly for and whose sensibilities were aimed at) respond the way the writer wants them to when these acts happen on page, so it's proven to be a successful formula in the past. However, I'm on board with it becoming less prominent now that more and more women are openly enjoying the genre as well.
One more thing I have to address is the desire to see more fantasy series that don't have sexist worlds because fantasy doesn't reflect reality and, to that I would say I agree, depending on the inspiration. For example, Tolkien's Middle-Earth is wonderfully fantastical in a way that it's easy to see it as a wholly distinct world from our own, and thus separate it from our pre-conceived notion of how a sword-wielding society would act, while other series, particularly grimdark series like Witcher and A Song of Ice and Fire, are very heavily inspired by and based on a fictional version of our world, which makes it harder to separate in the mind of the average reader. Sure they have magic and dragons, but they largely exist in the background while the entire rest of the world(s) so heavily mirror real-life historical periods, that it would be jarring and much harder for most to immerse themselves in if they didn't have the same kinds of social conflicts present in their real-world historical counterparts.
This was all just my own personal take of course, based on nothing more than my own views and views I've gathered from fans of the Witcher series, female and male alike, and the genre as a whole. It's of course not objective in any way, but I do hope it opens to door to discourse, preferably friendly ha ha.
Great video!
I mean GRRM shows you can have grimdark with sexual assaults and period sexism and not write sexist way. Sapkowsky didnt. Whether it was intentional or unintentional.
@@Snowsc-dp7qo Debatable, I've met more women who think A Song of Ice and Fire is sexist than I have women who think Witcher is, so like I mentioned before, it seems there's not a common consensus on what determines a sexist book. I do know that grimdark as a whole tends to come under fire for it however. When I think sexist writing, I tend to think of things like The Fifth Sorceress myself. But that's also just my opinion, which along with about 98 cents will buy a bag of chips ha ha. So like all opinions, it's to be taken with a grain of salt.
It's easy to allow our favourite authors of the hock saying 'oh they didn't mean it' or just plainly refusing to see the evidence, especially when it doesn't seem relevant for the reader. Thank you for making this video, it's really important to acknowledge when something isn't quite right, even if it's in a novel we might like
I love the Witcher books, but I completely respect your opinion. I also recommend that you continue to read the books, because Ciri becomes the main character after this just as much, if not moreso than Geralt. You even changed my mind on a few things. One thing that you will learn later in the series (if you continue to read) is that Geralt and Ciri are the main characters, so to the unsuspecting eye, it may seem like other characters have none of their own motivations.
However, all their decisions revolve around Ciri & Geralt due to the Destiny from the Law of Surprise and Ciri’s elder blood/prophecy. Ciri isn’t really present in the first two books, so it seems as if everyone’s motivations revolve around him (including men) but if you’re more aware of it towards women I can see why you feel that way.
Other than that, I agree with you on a lot of things now. The way I look at it is that the book is emulating old fantasy stories even when they have misogynistic tropes (Snow White, sleeping beauty, etc)
I also highly respect how respectful you come across in the video. A lot of time when people are talking about media they find problematic, they become condescending, passive aggressive, and in some cases downright hostile.
I know I'm late to the comment party but I really appreciate how you broke this down. I read The Last Wish awhile back after a bunch of people recommended reading the books and definitely put it in the "interesting world and story but dear god the sexism makes this unreadable for me today" category. Hadn't read this one but am not surprised that this trend continued. I'm sorry that your first video got the reaction it did and you had to bring this level of receipts to prove something that is quite clear to anyone who has a passing understanding of sexism. Love your channel and always appreciate your reviews!
The "it was written a long time ago" and "medieval societies were sexist" defences are complete rubbish. I was reading _The Sword of Destiny_ (1992) at the same time as I was reading _The Decameron_ , written by Giovanni Boccaccio in 1353, and the contrast was stark. Boccaccio depicted women's struggles of living within a sexist society, but also their achievements and small victories. It often depicts silly (often repetitive) sexual escapades, but female characters have a voice, tell their own stories and actively own their own sexuality. Whereas in the Witcher (written 639 years later), they are always passive objects to be used and abused by men. When I think of the intended audiences, _The Decameron_ I imagine being chuckled over by 14th century ladies, while the Witcher I imagine being salivated over by '90s teenage boys.
It's not rubbish at all if you mention that it's not just about the medieval era, but rather about war time in the medieval or the beginning of the modern era. The Decameron has practically nothing to do with the universe described in the Witcher series, so comparing the two makes no sense at all.
The context of the Witcher series is more comparable to central Europe during the Thirty years war. Now I would be interested to find out about any book during the Thirty years war describing libertine interactions between men and women.
It would make no sense for a book set in that kind of environment to describe egalitarian relationships between men and women. Women were the ones suffering most, because they had to live through the total decomposition and breakdown of the whole society.
@@maniravsadhur8409 I didn’t necessarily say it was rubbish, but rather that there’s a failure by some contemporary male fantasy authors to portray (medieval) sexism. The sexism as depicted by historical writers, or by well researched historic fiction writers isn’t overtly sexual. What it really comes down to is a key distinction/problem in fiction; the difference between _depicting_ problematic subjects, and writing in a problematic way.
Take A Handmaid’s Tale for example. The society it depicts is horribly sexist; the characters are sexist, but the narration isn’t. Whereas in A Sword of Destiny, both the characters and (I’d argue) the author is. If a male character fixates on a woman’s breasts, it shows that the character is lecherous - if the author himself, writing in third person, fixates on a woman’s breasts, it’s sexism on behalf of the author.
It’s not about _what_ is depicted, but _how_ the author chooses to depict it.
Loved this video and your other one. You are amazing for making this video.
As long as person of type A is attracted to attributes and features of people of type B; I think some objectification is going to occur. Being attracted to another person's features and not objectifying them requires a very conscious effort of the superego to overcome the more instinctual id. I hope you don't mind me borrowing concepts from Freud's ideas. I was reading into the issue of objectification among lesbians and found that, indeed; it exists in those circles as well.
Other stuff -
What a video! Love the delivery even more than the content. Such high level of research and preperation! The philosophy B.A. in me is blushing.
Totally unrelated -
If you namedrop Winds of Strife without showing the cover again, I unsubscribe and report the channel for malcontent.
Lolz ok ok, jokes aside, I think it's a good idea to show the books when you mention them. You did that in previous videos. It's a BookTube thing, and it's also very supportive for the author, so, yea.
And thanks for thinking of Winds of Strife! Honestly had me shivering with excitement that you think about that before Stormlight and WoT
Many good points but 2 I disagree with.
1). I don't think angry women's heaving breast is supposed to be sexual. Maybe they should have said chest, but it just means they are fuming/huffing in anger.
2). Geralt being the hero doesn't mean we should agree with him. Geralt's poor understanding of his own feelings is a big thing in the books. Also hes jaded from seeing the worst of humanity for so many decades
I can go on and praise your review for 10 paragraphs but all I have to say is I love you for this 😂💕💕
Thank you for the support!! This video needs it 😂
Great video (the previous one was as well), I think you put it very nicely when you said: there is a difference between a book that is sexist and book that has a sexist society. I see it so often that people try to justify racist, misogynistic books (pr movies) by saying it's only realistic and this is how a realistic society works. But just as you said, you could have such societies without the narrative agreeing with it.
What really bugs me is the so called thermian argument (coined by Dan Olson aka Folding Ideas), where people try to justify (controversial) things by claiming that it has an in-universe explanation, it is consistent with the worldbuilding of the fiction in question. This argument disregards the fact that the creator(s) made concious choices to have these controversial elements in their stories. I think it's way more important to ask questions like: why was it necessary to create a world where sorceresses need to be attractive in order to be taken seriously? why create a world where sexual violence agains women is prevalent? In a fantasy book, you could literarly have anything, and somehow still the medieval Europe is the baseline (or what people thing that society was like). And the funny part is, that the question of realism only comes up when justifying somekind of bigotry. I never heard people saying: yeah, I want to read books with realistic description of things like menstruation, body hair, people dying of infection, people getting sick during a quest because of lack of hygiene and so on.
Sorry for the long comment, I'm very passionate about the subject :D
I've never heard of the thermian argument but what a GREAT add to this conversation. YES to absolutely EVERYTHING you said and you put it in words that I couldn't: these things exist in real life and have a place in fiction, but we need to ask ourselves WHY is this so prevalent in adult fantasy?
It was written in the 1990s, but also in Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe's culture was way more sexist than American culture at that time.
I applaud your effort and sober demonstration of how this book series objectify women. Still, how would you write about medieval times when women rights did not exist, consent was a tenuous concept at best, societies were organized alongside the rules of a class system? I guess one may always rewrite medieval fantasy using a 21st century moral compass, but this method would add a degree of separation to the historical reference the fantasy world would be built on. Men my age have grown up reading, watching stories and playing video games all propped up by the hero’s journey trope, whereby the young hero overcomes countless challenges to become the king and “get the girl”.
To argue that The Witcher is sexist is most probably a valid statement to make, however, so very few classic fantasy novels would pass this test, that I fail to see how this saga stands out against The Wheel of time, Conan the barbarian, The Belgariad, or something as horrible as Lord Foul’s bane.
Again, I do think that your arguments carry their own weight. I just don’t understand how stories might have been told in a radically different way while still portraying women life in European medieval times as it was, not as we wish it were, based on our modern values and expectations.
Very thorough, amazing video. I agree with every single point, great work!!
Thanks for the support!
Yeah there's definitely a case to be made about the objectification of women in these books.
I'd like to know though, if describing a woman's bossom qualifies as objectification, what would be the equivalent for men? I'm not asking for a pointless debate here, i'd really like to know. Like, what's the physical attribute for men which would work in the same way? (english not my first language, hope I'm clear enough)
I read Last Wish a few years ago I don't recall it being sexist tbh
Just offering a different perspective then!
@@Bookborn The sorceresses are suppose to be "sexy" because they gain power through seduction. Honestly, if you want to read a sexist series it would have to be the manga Berserk that shit made me puke at how sexist it was! But back to Witcher almost all of the female characters in this series are stationed in high power. I didn't really see the sorceresses as being objectified because it was explained in the book/games.
@@currangill430 This is specifically why I make the differential between objectification and sexism in terms of goals - the women do have power in this novel, but they are still objectified quite a bit; they are two different things. Additionally, I honestly had the last issue with Yennefer (at least in The Sword of Destiny, I had issues with her in The Last Wish), it was more the other women present in the novel.
@@Bookborn Eh? Yennefer? What was your problems with her? I don't recall any sexism/objectifications with her? She was just an asshole the Last Wish. In Sword of Destiny she was just being Yen which is an ass and liar. Do you mean the story with her deciding between Geralt and that other guy? That's just Yen. She cheats on Geralt and other men a fuck ton. Even so I love Yen to bits because she's such a complex character especially in the books. On the other hand I despise Triss lol
Also it's very unrealistic to expect an author (in dark fantasy and one who is trying to establish a realistic feudal medieval society) to not have sexism in it. However, if these same themes were recycled in a modern setting book I would have a lot of problems with it because then I would wonder if the author himself is sexist. I also just assumed, considering the pov of the short stories were from Geralt's pov, that that was how Geralt's mind worked he's a very horny guy but so are many of the women. The women are just like the men, they want to get off just like normal people.
Big ups on the video! Well said and informative.
Thank you for this video! I agree wholeheartedly, but will refrain from writing an essay like I did in the previous vid 😁
For future reference...I never mind an essay lol I love them 😂
Wow, this was a very insightful video.
I've read the last wish and the sword of destiny and didn't notice or think about any of this while reading but now that you've broken it down its so obvious!
I love the games but even they contain elements of this. Thank you for all the work you put into this!
A lot of good points that i never would've noticed on my own. I hope you read the rest of the series and analyze it through this lens. My gut tells me that it does get better, but honestly i can't remember enough about it to make that call. I can definitely think of a few examples of women being described breast-first but i think there's usually at least an attempt to justify it on a character level.
I'm not sure if I'm going to keep reading! Some people I trust say both: in some ways it does get better but also sometimes it doesn't. I may revisit it in the future but probably not soon.
Wow. Awesome video. I love how methodical you analyzed this subject. And I 100% agree with you. I think it’s so important to reflect on the sexism in our society and try to become better.
Thanks for the support! I agree that it's important to analyze this stuff - not because we should destroy the media or stop participating with it, but just so we can recognize it when it comes up!
Nah you’re right. The series surely got its flaws and the author is known to be weird. Since the fandom got a lot of gamers which didn’t read the books it gets toxic fast if you don’t praise the books. I still love the universe but i preferred the story in the games and the books where good but had a lot of problems
Thanks for making this video. I've read 4 of the Witcher books now, and constantly get annoyed with these issues you mentioned. It's not that the books are bad, but i'm getting tired of feeling grossed out, lol. They're not for me, i guess.
I’m glad I’m not alone… although it’s tough because there are great ideas in there but the grossness overpowers it, like you said
I've only read the first two and they were hard work. There's a lot of fun, interesting things about the Witcher, but the constant lecherous depictions of women are repulsive.
I was wondering; are any of the later books more palatable? If not, I'd rather not give Sapkowski any more money.
Thank you so much for your content and thoughts on this series. I am a huge fan of the books, games, and tv show. Yes, there are many flaws. I would have to say Littleye’s story did bother me with her development and tragic ending of her character. In some instances it gets better in later books but in some cases it really doesn’t. Mikva’s character in Baptism of Fire comes to mind. I believe that some of Gerald’s behavior and story context is part of his arc as he matures into the father figure of a daughter and someone who ultimately wants to settle down with Yennefer (Narrative view or not). I would really enjoy your thoughts on Ciri’s arc. That being said I understand your view and I can see how problematic it is for consumers of the content and future writers as well. Thank you again for your time and hard work! You have given me a lot to think about moving forward.
Note that there are hints that in universe the book is supposed to have been written by Dandelion, or at least based on his notes. Dandelions sexism and the narrator's sexism are thus the same.
Wow, thank you for making this video. It really expounded on your last wish video. This made more sense and I really agree with you
I really didn't explain myself well in the first video. I was just sort of dumping my feelings without context. I'm glad this helped clear it up.
So far I've only read The Last Wish but yup! You basically hit on all the feelings I had while reading it with the overload of objectification!! xD
I can't believe people think objectification doesn't happen anymore?! They definitely need to talk to some female friends/family members!!!
Yeah, that was the most surprising part of my comments was the overwhelming number of people being like "this is just medieval and doesn't happen anymore!!" And I'm like...have you been on youtube and seen youtube comments just for a starter??? lol
Objectification works both ways love. It's not female exclusive.
If only there were a way you didn't have to read them if you don't like the author's voice...
24:39 I appreciate your attempt to be fair, but your own examples (and there are many more) illustrate how weak the argument is. If the correlation you think exists is true at all, then there would be an underlying connection between (for example) playing violent video games and violence, but that's been thoroughly debunked (and I know you said it's not a one-to-one ratio, but if you can't establish any correlation than what basis do you have to make the claim?). That doesn't mean the subject isn't worth discussing, but the underlying fear is baseless. That aside, I think Sapkowski is an overrated writer and you're better off playing Witcher 3 as the best example of what the IP can do.
I was thinking the same. She says xyz is baseless then goes on to claim that it's not? Very confusing lol.
You've done an excellent job in this video, spelling out your argument with patience and giving specific and unambiguous examples to back up your analysis. In short, you're right: Sapkowski does objectify women in both The Last Wish and The Sword of Destiny. Those are the only two Witcher books I've read so far, and that was the one thing that prevented me from fully enjoying them. There's a lot to enjoy about the books -- some good character work, some interesting work around the theme that the humans are the really aggressive monsters, etc. You could even argue that Sapkowski presents a strong and liberated female character in Yennefer. Ciri is fantastic too, as you said. But, as you have carefully and persuasively argued, the instances of objectification are numerous and form a pattern that hindered my full enjoyment and immersion in both books. Thanks for this!
I think in a lot of ways Yennefer weirdly makes the objectification stand out. She's pretty liberated; in fact, many characters talk about and scorn sexual restrictions on women, yet the writing is full of objectification of women's bodies. It's a weird thing.
I wouldn't stress it too much if you don't like the series and don't want to continue. There is too many series in the world to stress out about one series. I'm really interested in seeing how you feel about Joe Abercrombie 's series, since you have the first book now. Or whatever series you plan to read next. I would love to hear about newer series.
Just finished The Blade Itself yesterday! The video review will come out next wed. Spoiler alert...I really liked it.
Amazing video 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
You said what needed to be said! I only read The Last Wish and was not a big fan but i do enjoy the tv show (it's not perfect but better).
I tried to watch the first episode but he like cut off a persons head on screen and I had to peace out 😂 I am literally SUCH a weakling with on-screen violence and it's an actual issue. I need someone who has seen it before who can tell me when to close my eyes lol
@@Bookborn haha it is super gory!!
I see your point. I agree, there is content in the witcher books one can see as problematic.
I have only one and only one counter argument it is competitively simple and easily said, however i find it rather compelling when one thinks about it.
The witcher books describe reality. They describe a horrible, horrible reality in which people are bent and shaped into cruelty on all levels of society. The books show how low humanity can stoop and the show what a terrible, terrible place the past was to live in.
BUT they do not grant absolution to how the characters act. Someone raised in what is effectively 13th century poland would not think and act like we do today.
Because of this i find problematic behavior in the books to be less an expression of how the author sees the world than an imagination of how this world in the books would have been.
It is similar with Warhammer. These are stories without heroes and role models. Instead the are stories from cruel times and places, filled with even crueler people.
In this sense, they are more cautionary tales than examples of how to behave.
I am not sure if have properly conveyed the though, but that is the outline.
I 100% agree the book is sexist and your critique of that is well founded and articulated. Art however can be sexist, it can objectify - I think the question that you could be asked is whether art that is sexist or objectifies be allowed. My view is you have a choice - you can consume it, enjoy it, hate it, rage against it or make a TH-cam video about it and discuss it. Authors have to retain the artistic right to offend the reader if anything authentic is to be created and readers have the right to call it out, criticise it and close the book so to speak - which is what you've done 👍.
Yeah the idea of censorship is such a weird one. I'm mostly on the fan of the least censorship as possible; you can critique something openly and walk away from it and not be required to consume it.
I think that you are totally right and bravefault💜
Thanks for the support!
Oh damn! I really loved the video and the explanation of why is important to notice this kind of thing. Unfortunately I think the next books are like this one, so even though I'm a huge fan of the wittcher books I wont lie and say that the next books are free from the sexualism problems.
U have got a new fan
Your arguments were awesome, i agree with your conclusions, you are based as fuck, i’m subscribing.
I can honestly say I have no interest in The Witcher, be it the books, video games, or tv show.
Why not? Is it just the style of it overall or the topics?
@@Bookborn the tv show and games are too explicit sexually for my liking, can’t get into them. The books just sound boring, nothing special. Maybe someday I’ll try them but there are hundreds of books I’m actually interested in to get to first
I had trouble getting into the audiobook. It may have been the reader.🤷
During rereads i mostly skip these 2 short story books. The rest are amazing, barely any sexism (always some bcs its a male writer). Ciri is an insanely good character and yennefer is my favourite character of all time... you should really give blood of elves and the main story a chance!
This was my favourite short story in the book, but you’re right the descriptions are pretty ridiculous and objectify a bunch. I’m glad I can now look back at this story with a bit more criticism. I thought the story was tragic though with the ending. The loving Geralt after 2 days thing was really stupid. And Geralt is a dummy. I agree. But that short story nearly made me cry by the end of it. And yes, these characters are flawed people, not meant to be reflections of good people we want to aspire to be like in every facet. I’m glad both you and I can see the good and bad in these stories.
Such a great video! Clearly a lot of work went into this video and it shows. Would love more topics with "receipts" and excerpts
Thanks! I actually have one in the works right now :)
Thank you for making this video. I haven't read The Witcher yet, but it was on my TBR. Now I'm a little nervous. At least I'll be prepared beforehand...
Honestly I think if someone had prepared me for it I would've enjoyed the book a lot more. If I know "hey some things are sexist" then it's like okay I'll just ignore it and focus on the story. But since there seemed to be so little discussion on it, and a lot of push back when I talked about it, it made it somehow MORE noticeable to me than ever, if that makes sense.
@@Bookborn Good, I hope that's the case for me too! Whenever I get to it...
It's really interesting the things people take away from these stories. I think, through the scope of our own experiences, the things described seem ridiculous, sexist and problematic, but, personally how I veiwed them, was the experiences through the lenses of the characters in this world. Dandelion is a chauvinist with very little control of his impulses. Geralt is inscure, lonely and often at odds with his own feelings and emotions. Some of the actions described by the dwarves aren't for the sake of showing anything other than the reality of the place the world written around them, it's not to fit an agenda of the writer, it's to just tell what happened, what those characters experienced and what they felt, wanted, heard and had chosen.
A Little Sacrifice might be one of my favourite Witcher short stories because it feels so human. It's messy, and the choices the characters made don't always make sense, it's contradictory, it's fallible and the choices made are grey, just like humanity, just like real people; I think the story is excellent for that. I think I related to Essi and Geralt more in those pages than to any other character in any other series I've read.
It's easy to say the story is sexist because it describes boobs, or it's sexist because Geralt wants to be offered a whore and has pity sex with someone, but without those things (and without the nuance), the story loses what makes it so special.
Please oh please do more of the books! I love the series, but as a women the sexism makes me very uncomfortable, and I love hearing you talk about it! I love hearing your points! I'm not much of a reader but this books I really fell in love with, but the sexism is a huge turn off.
I may come back to the series because everyone says there are some good stories in there! Plus I've only read the short stories, and not a single full-length novel. But I've also heard that the sexism continues lol
22:34 Murdered by words! ☠️☠️☠️ Totally agree though! And great follow-up!
Hey, here's a fact of life: women have breasts, men notice women's breasts - often. Also, didn't you think that the sex scenes and female descriptions were there because the story was following Geralt an adult male, and when Ciri was the main character the storytelling obviously left those out. Isn't that pretty self evident?
Here’s the thing you tend to miss. Depictions of sexism don’t equate to book being sexist. Remember Geralt is not some virtuous hero, he’s just a strong dude trying to do his best in a messed up world, a world that includes sexism. Sapkowsky’s depiction of women have been praised as some of the best women in fantasy. So while Geralt and society may objectify women, that doesn’t mean the author does. So we see these women as Geralt sees them. Let me just tell you plenty of men look to the boobs either first before or pretty soon after meeting a woman
Conversely, the “totally not sexist” Lord of the Rings does have ONE strong female character, but her arc is in accepting her role as a traditional woman. Don’t get me wrong, Tolkien was not sexist for his time, but that was for his time. In our time he very much is sexist and it comes across in his books. I feel like his books show his sexism. In the midst of the tales of great deeds women are generally relegated to the sidelines. Even when they aren’t they need to learn the value of their place in life.
I understand your points, but I don’t think it rises to a level where it ruins the stories, and it feels like you’re missing a lot of the story by only focusing on one aspect of it
Totally agree with you here. Also found it hard to read at times.
Just out of curiosity, did you ever made it to the real books?
Its just a little Part or 2 Pages, but you'll find it in a World of ice & fire...
She never read the other books I wanna see her opinion on specifically later story Ciri and Milva
I don’t think she will ever reach that part if she had a mental breakdown on The Last Wish lmao
What an insightful analysis. I just started to re-read the witcher series and couldn't bring my self to finish them because of the points you highlighted. I guess learning about feminism and toxic masculinity does that for you.
hahahahaha, you are gold my friend hahahaha
Great video, well done. The comment you highlight at 28:36 is an interesting one. I’ve never considered that things that are problematic in the real world (racism, sexism, etc) being treated as normal and not problematic in fantasy were meant to create a starker difference between reality and the fantastical world the author is creating. If the fantastical world has sexism and nobody cares or does anything about it, that does feel wrong and foreign. I’m not sure the commenter is saying sexism doesn’t exist, but sexism in fantasy existing and being acceptable in that world is meant to heighten the fantastical element of that world. Am I interpreting that right?
The end of your video is very powerful. It helps people like me who haven’t experienced these things understand their gravity more seriously. Thanks for taking the time to lay all of that out so that we can all become more aware and careful how we treat each other, and how we choose to consume media.
Thanks for the support!
One advantage of e-books is search (don't worry, I prefer paper). I searched for two words I thought would come up in problematic scenes - breasts & blouse (or I could have looked for straining against...). The Last Wish 7 total, Sword of Destiny 14, and the first novel Blood of Elves 4. In the short stories, pretty much always in disagreeable scenes. In Blood of Elves, mainly Dandelion/Jaskier. I tend to read past romance scenes (not why I'm reading them), so did not pay attention. One throw away scene with Dandelion would be one thing... I agree with the sexism based on your observations. Most fans will say the novels are better than the short stories. I think the sexism improves, but would have to reread to confirm. Reading Blood of Elves is worthwhile, if you want to give it another chance. The novels are more like the 2 short stories you enjoyed. Do you watch the Netflix show? Best -Matt
I have not read the Witcher series since I'm not interested, but I agree with everything you said about sexism. It just gets tiring after awhile. Also some of the comments you got is ridiculous, especially about how there isn't sexism in society now. I think every woman has experienced what you said at the end of the video (me included).
Tiring is the right word. It's not like those things don't exist, but sometimes I don't want to have to confront it on every single page in my fiction.
This was a great video. I especially like the disclaimer that shouldn't need to be said but was about 'you are not sexist if you like the Witcher', how saying the Witcher is sexist is not a personal indictment. For those who argue that society isn't like that anymore, I would argue that society is worse as far as aggressive sexism (things like the examples you listed) than it was when I was growing up in the 90s...I just don't remember my female friends having the same problems to the same degree and I was close to many of them. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but as a teacher I see this kind of behavior all the time, where the male students are literally judged by how many girls they've gotten into bed and it horrifies me when I hear my female students tell tales of other students who 'don't understand consent.' I think this attitude has become more ingrained into our culture and is actually glorified in a lot of the media we consume.
Also, as a person with Asperger's, yeah, people with autism can have a hard time relating to people, men and women alike, but I am happily married to a wonderful and brilliant woman and, even though I also don't really understand the whole courting song and dance, she chose to date me without me being super-aggressive. I also think it's pretty easy to tell when someone is autistic to the point of it affecting their behavior beyond what society deems appropriate. I dunno, but I honest to goodness do not understand the compulsion of some people to freaking whistle or shout at women while they pass. Like, has that, in the history of the world, ever gotten even one person a date? Like, ever?
Anyway, thanks for the important vid.
I get that's it's hard sometimes to not be defensive over things we love, but I want to be sure people understand that it isn't their own honor they are defending haha.
I completely agree. I think men who argue that we should give people a break underestimate a woman's ability to TELL awkwardness vs. threatening. Like have I had an awkward person hit on me? YES and it was so obvious and I didn't feel threatened or offended by some dumb faux-pas or whatever. Intention matters and women can tell immediatly.
To be fair, the 90s in Eastern Europe is a very different thing from the 90s in the West. Doesn’t change anything about the sexism, obviously.
Interesting video. I understand your positioning but I feel it’s a bit misguided. I believe is misguided for 2 reasons.
1) it’s based on the Middle Ages where women were looked at as second class citizens. The books are a satire of the Middle Ages and fairy tales which are sexist.
2) A character’s thoughts cannot be thought of as sexist. The objectification of women is a very natural male trait. While some men deny it, it is what it is. The best of us understand that in todays society it’s important to understand women aren’t simply object. At the same time that drive is important for men to maintain a relationship, to court and protect a woman. When we neglect our most basic selves we become victim to them.
I definitely agree that there is a male bias and the story plays into male fantasies. It’s a book about a man that’s written by a man based on one of the most misogynistic times in western civilizations history. To think that it would cater to a more subtle narrative is a huge stretch. It’s like watching pro wrestling and expecting to see an Olympic wrestling match.
Argument is that the sexism in Witcher is a flaw in the story, but a flaw doesnt make the whole story bad. It just makes it always flawed.