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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
- Do authors owe it to fans to finish a trilogy or series they started? Today I explore the issues surrounding unfinished works and how much we can reasonably expect from authors. Let me know what you think down in the comments!
Works mentioned
The Game of Thrones by George R.R. Martin
The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss
Sources
• Will I Ever Write More...
letterpresscom...
www.kickstarte...
stanfordpress....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_books/printing_press
stanfordpress....
Socials
Instagram: / bookborn.reviews
Amazon wishlist: www.amazon.com...
I personally stopped caring. Thankfully, Sanderson never disappoints.
Sanderson never disappoints is a mood and I'm in it constantly.
Although Sanderson is killing me with his long series. I‘ll probably be 70 years old when the last cosmere book comes out.
@@Florfilm not at the rate he’s popping out books.
@@joshdakota01 No he literally just has THAT many stories he wants to tell, even when putting his speed into consideration
That man is a writing machine. Unbelievably prolific.
They don't owe us anything, just like I don't owe them any interest when it's a decade between books.
EXACTLY. We don't owe them our support either!
I'll show an interest when it's done.
@@Bookborn It depends. When I started reading asoiaf George Martin stated that his story wiil be told in three books. So you could say that I bought under false presumes. And I think that authors have at least a "morally" obligation to finish their job. If we would wait for a finished story before start buying and reading there would be no GOT and Martin wouldn´t be rich. So I guess, from a certain point of view he owes his readers a complete story.
I think there are a number of annoyances such as time between books that are caused in most cases by book publishers, rather than book authors. Has to do with marketing strategy publishing costs etc...
They don't owe us anything. Their personal lives are their own, and we should absolutely respect that. This being said, we as fans don't owe them our continued loyalty or dedication. I was a huge fan of Rothfuss, and I still will attest that he is a tremendous writer with great skill in wordplay and complex narratives. I was immersed in his blog and Facebook group, following each post and avidly waiting to see his updates. The expectations Pat set into place, assuring us that book 3 was "practically done" and he just needed to edit, made many believe that it wouldn't be a long wait. But... *gestrues vaguely*. I honestly just... stopped caring.
I ABSOLUTELY believe that people are being toxic about the issue and toward him personally. That's horrid and we should call that out whenever we see it. If anyone reading this has done so, and have attacked Martin or Rothfuss for taking care of themselves, or, frankly, living their lives... just stop. It doesn't help you. It doesn't help the author. If it comes out, it comes out. If it doesn't, there are other book series to immerse yourself into. *coughSandersoncough*
NAILED IT. The author/fan agreement is simple: we can choose to support you, but we can choose not to as well, and that's everyone's right, just as it's their right to work or not work on their book. But people who are angry and attack these authors...I want to be like, How does this help?? It's just silly.
Nah your not finish what you did and you can't get made when your legacy
Expect they do when the sign up with a publisher.
@@evacody1249 Then they only owe the publisher whatever they agreed to via contract; that still doesn't guarantee anything beyond that.
GRRM once had a great response to this: "Every time someone asks me when my next book will be finished, I kill a Stark."
LOL...now that's power
I met him three times and I liked him. Now I am only disappointed in him and his answers to his critics are that of a annoyed child and not of a grown man. His readers, especially asoiaf readers are the main reason for his success and I do think that he owes them at least from a moral or ethical standpoint a finished story. To work 30 years on his masterwork, if he works at it at all, got as good as nothing to do with professionalism. Guys like him and Rothfuss are very talented but fickle. And to get mad at the readers which only want to know how a story ends is utter ridiculous. Do these guys got no work ethics?
“Authors can’t just write books like machines”
Sanderson:........
Did you see my little note calling him out on screen during that part lol
@@Bookborn no. I missed that lol
Authors like Martin and Rothuss just make me appreciate others such as Sanderson and Erikson even more
I mean...Sanderson and Erikson are machines. It's pretty fun to be in those kind of fandoms.
@@Bookborn There's been a joke on the wild webbernets that Sanderson has found a way to siphon the writing talents of GRRM and Rothfuss to fuel his own insane writing skills and that's honestly a headcanon I'm willing to accept.
@@Bookborn
Do you have a Facebook page where you discuss the books you read?
I've been enjoying your content and wondering what other things you discuss
@@jameswitts3793 I *technically* have a facebook page but it's very dead and I don't pay much attention to it. I am pretty much exclusively on instagram! bookborn.reviews
@@Cuinn I freaking LOVE that meme. Makes me laugh every time.
A man is only worth as much as his word. A promise is a promise.
I know they dont owe us anything but honestly the waiting for Winds of winter and Doors of stones is killing me
I never said it had to be pleasant 😭
Great take. I think the issue is more that we see both of these authors doing so much OTHER stuff besides writing. Rothfuss seems pretty prolific in the gaming community. Martin has so many other irons in the fire. The funny thing is, it is we the fans who are partly to blame these authors are busy doing so much. Both of these guys wrote a lot more when they had to. I do appreciate that Martin seems to take a very active role in everything that has to do with GoT, as is he right. I imagine a lot of people might just sign the rights away and cash the check. He stays involved to make sure it is right.
But on the other hand, they really should make it a priority. I know the arguement you put forth about art not having a timetable and all that. That is true to a certain point but what we are asking for is a continuation of their current project. Good chances both already know how thier series will end. The need to put in the work. As in every day until you get it done. Build momentum and let that take you on a ride. Lots (maybe even most) professional authors have writing schedules. These two should not be waiting for inspiration to hit. The point about publishers advances is interesting. I am sure Martin paid any such advance back.
I wonder how Martin feels about finishing his book himself. A lot of these authors who have been around for a while have to consider this (especially after Jordan). I know Terry Brooks, my favorite author, specifically stated that he wanted to be the one to finish his Shanarra series - after writing on it for thrity years. I am sure Martin thinks about this - even though one of his assistants is Ty(?) and is a best selling author himself so maybe he has some breathing room there.
Good subject. Do they owe us, the readers? No. Do they owe it to the story they are trying to bring into the world? Yes, I think they do.
Love this comment. I think it is really difficult to see authors working on other things when the unfinished project is right there. I think this is especially true of Martin, who is continuing to do things in the GoT universe but just...not the two final books.
Originally I didn't have much sympathy. Because I'm the sort of person who's like...well JUST DO IT. Just work on it. JUST DO IT. But I've tried to evolve and be understanding about why it might be difficult to just pull something like that out when you have so much pressure. With Martin, I wonder if he's also just tired. I mean the dude IS in his 70's.
That being said, I really hope both Rothfuss and Martin decide to finish their stories. I agree with you in that stories are weaker when their originator can't finish them out.
Oh the thoughts... In short I think you got it.
Authors don't owe us anything because we don't really have a contract with them. Doesn't mean there isn't a social contract though. Publishing a book and announcing it's part of a series is promising to deliver that series. If they don't, even if they don't owe us the rest of the series, it's still a promise broken.
After getting burned on GOT though, it's prevented me from picking up King Killer. I've heard it's a great series, but I have no desire to start it till it's finished.
That's spilled over into how I approach other series now. If it's "Book 1" I do some research to figure out if the series is complete or not before I start it. I've broken that rule a couple times, but so far only Sanderson and Terry Mancour haven't let me down.
The unfortunate part of this is I really prefer series, but I'm way less likely to give a new series the benefit of the doubt. It's made me really appreciate Sullivan's approach. Write all the books before releasing the first one. He talked about how freeing that is because in the later books he comes up with things he'd like to change in the first book to make it work better. Since none of them are published he's able to, and the whole series is better for it.
It takes a lot of discipline to write all three books at once, but I can seethe huge benefit in it. I don't mind starting series that aren't finished only because I love being on hype-trains. Nothing like waiting for a last book and getting to ride out the excitement! I'll get burned but I can usually move on...there's so many great books out there.
I distinctly remember GRRM saying at the beginning of the pandemic that since he won't have anywhere to go due to lockdown he would finish WoW by 2020 & if he didn't fans had permission to lock him in an island prison on New Zealand or something. Even though it's a joke I feel like that him not being honest. Every year he tells us it will come next year. Why not just directly say that it'll be ready when it's ready & not give these false deadlines
Yeah, I'm always about under promising and over-delivering lol. Maybe better to not get a date and have it be a pleasant surprise.
Prewatch: No, unless there's a kickstarter or some similar transaction.
Yep!
I'm spoiled by Brando Sando
The man is a machine.
What's changed is that fans just used to scour the sci-fi/fantasy shelves at our local bookstore or mall store, sometimes weekly or daily, checking to see what had come in. It was also a great way to read way more authors - if nothing from an old series was out, then who wants to go home empty-handed?
I think there's more of a tendency these days to follow one/few authors closely, even to the point of being immersed in their fandom, rather than picking up any book that strikes your fancy and keeping an eye out for when a new update of an old series comes in.
Publishers & authors are feeding the problem though, by declaring a book as 1 / X, rather than admitting that there might only ever be the one.
That's why I'll DIE if all physical book stores go under. I just CAN'T browse on Amazon; it's only good if you know exactly what you want. I've had so much fun just going to stores and picking random books out and getting into new authors that way.
I also think publishers are WAY too obsessed with series. Even things that are better as just stand alone...
The early adopters basically make it possible to be a successful fantasy writer, so I'd say they're entitled to the series they've put time and money into being finished. Personally, I'll never start a series that's not already finished.
I mean, I think it would be NICE. I think it would be great of authors to show that respect, but being an early adopter doesn't guarantee anything. A ton of people feel the way you do, though, about starting series. I personally love getting on hype trains so I love starting series early in inception - makes the excitement grow when the final one comes out! Sure, there will be disappointments, but I find there have been way less of those than finished series.
They’re entitled to the book they put time and money into being published. Unless they paid for an entire series, they are not owed anything.
Agreed & well said. One more note: we're not paying for future books. We pay for a book that already exists, and the value we get is reading the book we bought. We've already received value for the money we spent, ya know?
Very true, we already got what we paid for. And additionally, it's also our right to stop supporting an author if we are annoyed lol. We don't owe them our fandom either!
Really enjoyed your discussion!
I agree with the notion that authors don't owe us a continuation or completion of their series. We usually don't pay for books before they are published or on their way to publication, do we? We got the products that we paid for. If their publisher has no problem with their stalling or discontinuation, there is little we can expect. Is that super frustrating? Yes, it is. Especially when there's still hope - which sucks. But most authors, I'm sure, don't stall for malicious reasons and aren't comfortable with leaving their readers hanging. So putting pressure on them, I believe, won't be helpful in most cases if there's a serious reason behind the stalling.
I don't know the ins and outs of the publishing industry, but I can imagine that some author may be contractually forbidden from straight up saying that they won't be finishing their series, like for good or for a long time, because many new readers may not purchase the released stories knowing that they won't be getting an ending?
I mean, being notorious for stalling your works can come at the expense of your popularity and credibility as an author, meaning a lot of people decide not to get into your story because they want to wait and see if you continue. But if that sliver of hope is gone? It can mean your series is dead for good, possibly making no sales anymore, no? I don't know any readers who will gladly go into a story knowing that, especially for a long-ass series. And Martin's novels, as far as I know because I dropped asoiaf (because I didn't like it very much), aren't self-contained at all. Not finishing it will leave a hell of a lot open endings. Is that morally okay? It isn't, but legally you probably don't have an issue.
Yes, I completely agree that authors probably *want* to finish their books - it doesn't feel good - and for various reasons they can't, and couldn't agree more that pressure to do it probably has the opposite effect.
But yeah...it's so annoying when we want an ending. I haven't read ASOIAF but with kingkillers, I was so sad for a while about it but now I've honestly just...moved on LOL. Might be harder to move on from something that I REALLY REALLY Cared about (like Stormlight Archive), but I feel like in all cases I eventually would.
Let's pretend Martin never finishes his series. I wonder a lot what the legacy of that series will be. It's one of the biggest in fantasy right now. Will that still the the case if it's never finished? who knows!
@@Bookborn Yeah, I'm actually wondering that, too. The hype around the series mostly died with season 8, even though people had issues with it before. So I'm sure lots of people pinned their hope on the books. I wonder if that is one of the reasons Martin can't seem to keep going? There was and maybe still is a lot of pressure on his shoulders for his ending to be the better one. I mean, as macabre as it is, I could imagine that maybe it could get picked up by another author if the publisher thinks it's profitable enough and Martin doesn't contractually forbid them from doing so. But I don't know the legalities of that. Maybe he manages to cement his fame via his other projects, although I believe his other novels, at least, aren't that popular. But here I'm speaking from a German perspective, I don't know if they are a hit elsewhere (but the German market isn't to be underestimated or so people keep saying haha). Ultimately, I don't know.
Congratulations on 3k! 🥳 I’ve stopped recommending KK/GoT for the reason that there are so many incredible fantasy authors that are continuing to put out book after book/new authors that would really benefit from more readers/old series that were seen through to the end, that I don’t really feel the need to support any series that will (at this point) never be finished.
Yeah and see I think that's a perfect way to do it. You don't need to keep supporting those authors! I've started telling people the caveat of like..."hey kingkillers is great but will most likely never be finished." We just also don't need to internet harass them lol.
I only start reading a series when it's finished. Sanderson and Scott Lynch being the exeption ....
It's hard not to trust Sanderson simply because his output is so freaking large
@@Bookborn i think abercrombie, him and Lawrence (from authors that i've read) are just insanely consistent and pump out so much shit and the quality never drops
@@ves138 It's actually mindblowing how their brains work
I think authors do owe us their completing their works. Of course there are exceptions, like if something major is happening in their life that prevents them from writing, but generally speaking they should finish them. Since these particular authors (who I don't read, so I have no skin in the game on either series), seem to have time to make TV shows and to update blogs, it seems doubtful there is something in their life (like Jordan's illness) preventing them from writing. I just believe in fulfilling commitments. If they weren't willing to do that then shouldn't have started publishing. I don't expect every author to be Sanderson, putting out a new book or two every year. But taking over a decade to produce a book that was promised is ridiculous.
I'm not an author, but I am an artist. And as an artist, I can tell you that discipline goes so much further than waiting for inspiration or the right mood. Inspiration doesn't just fall out of the sky. It comes when you practice your craft, even when (maybe especially when) you don't feel like it. The more I practice the more inspired I am to do it. Yeah, sometimes you have to take a break to reset, but breaks have to come to an end.
A good perspective. I will say, with what's happened in the Kingkiller fandom recently (with him releasing the first chapter or something for charity) I feel weird about the situation. Like...have you been sitting on that for a long time? What's going on there...
This is exactly how I feel. Fans aren't just investing money to buy these books, but hours and hours of time, and get very emotionally invested in the story. Taking a break after publishing a novel is one thing, but after more than a decade, and seeing what he's been up to in that time, I'm legitimately offended by both his nonchalant attitude towards the book, and his pissy demeanor when addressing frustrated fans. I'm not sure what his therapist is filling his head with, but his arrogance surrounding the entire issue is really not healthy, and sets a terrible example for other artists IMO.
No you are right.
Also what the saddest about this public backlash isn’t helping their mental health = making them more pressured and more prone to actually not finish like ever. Martin hinted on that several times and Rothfuss talked about that openly lately.
Neil Gaiman put it best. Authors aren’t our *****s. 🧐
YEP. I had a fourth point about reader responsibility but it just didn't make a ton of sense so I cut it out. But fans who are getting on them constantly is doing the OPPOSITE. Can you imagine the pressure? The internet culture is a great thing sometimes but just hurts in so many ways as well.
Agreed they technically do not owe us the readers and fans anything. However for every series that is not completed they damage sales as readers start to only commit to something that is complete, or refuse to buy further books by that individual. I can say that it certainly effects my book purchasing strategies.
So I just discovered your channel as i have really been getting back into reading and wanted to say THANK YOU! I absolutely adore GRRM's books, but part of what makes them so good is that every action, every thought, every plot is so well thought out. Also, Martin gets credit for including real world history in his work which is true but what is under-appreciated IMHO is how he weaves in real world mythology - from Germanic/Norse myth, to Vedic myth, to Chinese myth (i could go on). The depth and complexity of his work are amazing. To be clear, he obviously has other things going on (TV shows, video games, etc.) but he like any artist needs to be inspired and ultimately happy with the work he created. From channels like yours we can all discover other great fantasy works to read while we wait. Again, thank you! Keep up the awesome work.
Thank you so much ☺️ yes I think there are many factors that go into making a series difficult to complete. His attention to detail and desire for research is going to make things take time
i think George R.R. Martin's trouble are self-inflicted. he set deadlines for the publish date (certainly people pushed for it) and didn t meet them over and over again, he said it is his highest priority, and he avoids everything distracting him. meanwhile he publishes other books, produces shows etc. . his own statments and action don t fit together. he never said he has trouble and takes a break to clear his head. this lead to many doubting his honesty in the progress updates.
Great video. As an A Song of Ice & Fire fan I'm not bothered that Winds of Winter isn't out yet. Let the man write the story he wants to tell at his own pace. There is plenty to read in the meantime.
Right? I mean, it may be sad for a little bit if you think you'll be missing out on a series ending, but after a while there are so many other books to fill in the gaps that it softens the blow.
Best response to the question that I've seen so far - and so many booktubers seem to be happy to complain about waiting for a book. Books don't just happen and I imagine the authors would prefer to get them done to have that sense of achievement and closure, so it's much more likely that they can't for whatever reason....
Yeah, I"m sure Rothfuss LOVES getting asked daily about something he'd probably rather have done 🙃 I get it's hard to wait but I really do have some sympathy (on the other side too, fans don't owe authors to keep supporting them if they choose not to!)
I slightly disagree. When Feast of Crows came out, Martin explained how it was a half a book, and said the other half would be coming out within 6 months to a year. Many years later, we got the disastrous Dance with Dragons. And we are not likely to get anything else. Can he do that? Of course. Can I dislike him for doing it? Of course. In general, I’m not a fan of writers who do not write. And less of a fan of writers who have made promises about what they will do and fail to deliver.
In the Victorian era, there was a real parallel to today’s fantasy series. Writers first published novels in magazines via serialization - a few chapters every time the magazine published. Suppose you read the first half of A Tale of Two Cities in serial installments, and then Dickens said, I’m just not up to it anymore. Does he owe it to the reader? Probably not. But is the reader entitled to be upset with him? I think so. They didn’t get what was promised, and feel like the author has wasted their time. I don’t know if this actually happened then. If it did, it’s likely those aborted books are simply forgotten.
Now, suppose Sanderson decides to pull a George Lucas.He announces tomorrow that Disney has bought the rights to Stormlight and will be finishing the whole thing as a movie series. Sanderson washes his hands of what he’s doing, and Disney has free reign to change whatever it wants. Oh, and he’s paid 30 million for the rights. Good for Sanderson. But can fans feel like he’s done something bad to them? I think so. (That’s pretty much what Martin has done, and it annoys me that he still pretends he;s going to finish the series.)
I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking A dance with dragons was awful
Really well articulated and argued bookborn. A good thoughtful approach!
Name of the Wind is my favourite book. I'm more than happy to wait for the final one, as much as I'd love to read it yesterday.
Yeah it feels like he's not in the place to write it right now, and I wouldn't want the bad-version of it. I'm hoping things will calm down in a while and it'll work out.
@@Bookborn According to more recent streams, he has been working on it.
He's a massive perfectionist, and started writing the first book 27 years ago. Makes sense it'll take time, especially with a lot of the roadblocks he's had.
There are thousands upon thousands of other books to read out there in the meantime.
Though, as an author myself, I don't know that I could ever spend that much time on one book. But my prose is nowhere near his level, perhaps that's why! Haha.
@@toddherzman126 Yeah, the video wasn't necessarily to even comment on whether him taking a long time was right or wrong! Just that the impression is that it may never be finished and what does that mean.
I have to admit, I also find there is so much to read that it doesn't sting. Will I be sad if there is no conclusion? Probably. But honestly it's been so long since I read it I don't really even remember a lot of the plot points anymore lol. Time heals all wounds.
@@Bookborn I've actually just gotten the audiobooks, so I'll be listening to them for the first time. I wonder how the experience will be. I haven't read NotW since 2016.
Great video! As a GOT nerd including house banners in my room( wife doesn't like them) and tattoos. I hate GRRM for not finishing the books while adapting another script for HBO. Silver lining I'm learning about a bunch of books to jump into thanks to your channel.
Lol I love that you have the banners in your room. I made Harry Potter banners for our house but ended up not having anywhere to hang them because they are SO bright. I'm assuming the GOT banners are more neutral? (hopefully for your wife's sake ;) )
Short answer - no
Longer answer - no, it's their publisher who they answer to, if they're not pushing for them to finish it then they can take as long as they want / need.
lol EXACTLY
Can they force them though? No one making that much bank like Martin or Rothfuss get pushed as they're golden tickets. Jim Butcher said he was beholden to them till Dresden really sky rocketed and now HE tells them when he wants to do another book and had said as much.
Before jumping in, my view is that they owe us nothing, just as we don't owe them anything. We may invest in a series and its world and characters, and hope to see a series finished but the author is under no contractual obligation (with the readers at least), and there may be many things playing in their personal lives or a variety of reasons why an author isn't putting out more works in a series. That being said, I do think it's fair to criticize an author for keep pushing back their publishing date, no nothing should be rushed, but most regular authors don't get to tell their publishers or editor's that they won't give any material and that they just should be patient. The readers have committed financially with the expectation that there will be a conclusion, no matter how bad or good. And we may express our discontent, in a polite way, with waiting and being kept in the dark. I could write more but maybe I should check your video first.
Yes, I should have made that more clear. Valid criticism or even deciding not to support an author is 100% valid and in your rights as a reader, just like they don't have to write. There is a way to criticize an author without being rude or over the top, and I think that's completely okay. No one lives in a vacuum.
lol yeah forgot to save my edit but basically yeah
Brandon Sanderson has spoiled us. Not only does he pump out novels like it's nothing, but he also is very transparent on his website for how far he is in each book. He gives the State of the Sanderson every year to update on when projects are expected. He even has said in several signings that the readers are his boss and without them he'd have no work...very considerate, but I wonder how much that lends to a certain entitlement or disappointment when other authors don't hold up to those standards.
Oh wow I never once said I completely agree with you. Great video!
As a very organized person, Sanderson hits a very nice spot within my heart lol. I love how upfront he is. He pushes back projects but he does it with such transparency and honesty you could never be upset. He's def an author who is ALL about his fans and it's amazing.
I largely agree with your perspective. The only thing a reader is owed for the price of a book is the book they are paying for. I do, however, feel that starting a series forms a loose social contract. I look at it like etiquette. It is good manners to finish a series after it has started, but how an author chooses to prioritize her life and work is her choice alone. Authors may choose to abandon a series, and readers may choose to disapprove of an author's choices.
Always an option for readers to disapprove and even stop supporting said author. I just don't think they get the right to demand anything or be rude to said author, you know?
@@Bookborn Precisely.
9:30 YES! yes. this . -JC
"We don't always need to know. It's okay for things to be private"
Bookborn should be in charge of social media. We could use more of that mindset online
Not to sound old but like I'm constantly baffled by the things people put online lol.
Rothfuss lost a much loved parent AND suffers from deep depression and anxiety...and has talked about it candidly in different places. He wasn't being mean or rude to the "fan"...the "fan" was being disrespectful to him who professionally owes nothing to anyone (except eventually his publisher). Nor do authors have to coddle their fans. One's own family and health is more important than releasing a book before it is ready. He has recently answered a lot of questions about his upcoming book on a TH-cam channel.
Like I said...I don't know what's going on in his life and I don't deserve to. But the video I watched where he was swearing at his fans and being pretty rude, I stand by that it was unnecessary. Just DON'T LIVE STREAM if you don't want to deal with fans! It's that simple. I have a lot of sympathy for him, tbh, but I don't think a hard time also gives you the right to act however you want. Fans need to be accountable too; "fans" on the internet are horrible.
@@Bookborn Rothfuss also got a very narrative book to finish, the way that the second book is written makes book 3 harder to deliver and i think that is part of the problem
It's alllllll fine.
Over the years I have discovered...like...23 other solid authors to keep myself busy.
And thank you book tubers for the general guidance.
Right? I'm sad for a little bit but I've honestly forgotten about it now. I have so many other things to occupy my time!
I never even understood this issue, really. There is an infinity of things to read and do in life in general, if you are done with a series and there is no continuation yet then read something else. There are so many interesting books out there and obsessing over something that's not released is just a waste of time. Go to a library and pick something that is released and read it.
I think it depends how deeply you were invested in the work. I really like The Name of the Wind, but it wasn't my GOAT. What if Sanderson woke up one day and said "eh...IDK I'm stuck and can't finish the stormlight archive." That might be harder for me to swallow. But, ultimately, I agree with you - there's so much other good stuff to fill my time, I can't dwell on this stuff much.
I’ve never liked the wording of this question. Of course authors don’t “owe” any reader anything, and I feel that this question is phrased in a way to make fans sound entitled.
The question should instead be “Should Authors Make an Effort To Complete Their Series and Be Honest With Theirs Fans?” I think what bothers many people about Martin and Rothfuss is that they seem to outright resent their fans and shame them for caring about their series.
I mean I talk about that in here! I say that they owe fans honestly and that’s where rothfuss falls short. I phrased it this way because some fans DO feel entitled. Of course, fans don’t owe it to authors to keep supporting them either.
9:07 - 9:11 was literally about to comment unless you're Brandon Sanderson and then I saw it on the screen lol😂
lol Sanderson is my main man, can never pass up an opportunity to give him credit
A Song of Ice & Fire was my intro to Adult Fantasy, and whether it's completed or not it's still one of, if not my favourite Fantasy series but it's incomplete status doesn't bother me. Like, at all. If it ever did then definitely not anymore.
It's not that I don't care, just doesn't bother me. Especially since there so many other books and series available.
That being said I wish slow writers would stop promising fast returns/output. There's nothing wrong with taking years to complete a book in my opinion. I'd rather wait years for a great book than one or two for a decent one that I'll forget after a week. Not to mention the fact that we live in an instant gratification/binge culture isn't helping either but that's not the authors fault that's just how the world is now.
I totally agree that EXPECTATION is a lot. Like...just don't promise me! I'd much rather an author say "This is going to take a long time. Years. I'm not in the space right now". Great! Don't promise me what you can't deliver.
That being said, I'm like you. I just entertain myself with other stuff in the meantime and don't think about it too much.
It would be nice to see the series finished, but can’t force them.
Btw, salivating at those Cosmere leatherbound books in the bookshelf. Hoping they get in stock soon
I knowww they are SO gorgeous. I still haven't managed to snag the second mistborn, so I only have the first and third. Hoping to get the restock!
I'm with you. I think the only thing authors owe you is honesty and kindness. Tangentially: I really do hate thinking of works of art as commodities. It's so depressing to think of all the fantastic stories we might be missing out on because the publishing company feels it won't sell or they cannot market it. The market pigeon-holes authors into creating works that will sell instead of really getting creative. You see it in movies and video games as well. I would love to see a work from an artist who isn't constrained from the pressures of earning their living.
That's why self-publishing is pretty exciting. It's so much easier for authors to get their work out there without those constraints. As that field grows, I bet we will find some GEMS.
The funny thing is I basically gave up on Rothfuss and Martin and then I read Lies of Locke Lamora last year and fell in love with it... people, imagine my joy when I wanted to order Thorn of Emberlain 😂
Anyway, while I as a writer get that you’re sometimes not in the right place to write because writer’s block or stress in your personal life: not publishing anything for eleven years is just unforgivable from my standpoint. Especially if you’ve said that the trilogy ‘is already finished’ back when you published the first book ages ago. It’s like you sell me a car with three tires. I can probably drive with it but I wanted the whole car. These guys have a terrible work ethic.
What freaks me out are Rothfuss’ blog posts. There was the one in January (?) where he started it with “there’s great news” and I thought “it’s happening!” but it was just another fundraiser.
And I 100% agree with your point of honesty. I just don’t believe a single word from Rothfuss’ mouth anymore 😫
Look...I won't lie, I do think particularly with Rothfuss his work ethic is just NOT there. But I still can't force him to write, you know? It's annoying and a bummer but I can't give him vitriol on the internet (meaning the people who call him names and stuff, not the people who just discuss it). I don't believe anything Rothfuss says. I literally won't believe there is a third book unless it is PHYSICALLY in my hands lol
@@Bookborn Yep. And I wouldn’t force him if I could because there are so many amazing books out there. Are there many books that are as outstanding as Name of the Wind? No. But do we know that Doors of Stone will be as good as Name of the Wind? Also no. So I’m angry because I’d love to know how this story ends, but in the end, there’s a new Joe Abercrombie every year, so why would I care about Doors of Stone?
On the other hand, I really want that book😂
@@thecontradictorian2225 You described it. That's me. That's the feeling.
I agree with most of what you said! Honesty and kindness are key from both sides.
But I also have some other thoughts :
1)A lot of jobs (not artistic) have elements of creativity, and people working them are not given the same leeway. When you can't honor a commitment to your colleagues (for example) you don't "owe" them anything in a legal sense, but you still apologize and say something.
2)Some authors actually make promises to readers, in which case I believe we are owed at least some explanation on why a promise is broken. Kindness and understanding from fans (not harassment, who knows what's going on), but kindness and understanding from authors too (give SOME explanation and maybe an update, not asking for super private info). Many booktubers, for example, post some apology/explanation when they stop posting for a while. It's not that intrusive ("health issues" or "personal life" seems vague enough) or difficult, IMO.
Authors looking down on fans is unpleasant sometimes, as is seeing authors be harassed by fans or threatened (terrible, inexcusable behavior).
Books help us put ourselves in other people's shoes. Let's use that skill.
Absolutely agree with what you said. I also think I should've mentioned that fans don't owe authors to keep supporting them, recommending their work, or purchasing different editions, etc. Support is a two-way street.
I agree with all your points, but like an investment that has gone wrong, trust is broken.
Oh, completely. I should've gone further in this video and mentioned the other very important fact - just like they don't owe us anything, fans don't owe THEM their support. We have the right to stop supporting an author we don't trust anymore
If I may, I also think a third factor that makes this a relatively new issue is that readers expectations and relationship with authors has changed. Authors are visible now. We’re more aware of things like publishing schedules and release dates. I think maybe 50 years ago the average reader didn’t know what the author of their favorite book looked like, much less what he or she was doing with their time. I think people used to just read books. Did you know that the brothers karamazov was supposed to be a series? If Dostoyevsky were alive today, I wonder if he’d have fans following his Twitter for updates on the sequel. My point is, because the realm of authorship and publishing was less accessible, I don’t think people in the past had much expectations about what books were being published in the future.
I mentioned this a little bit near the end of my video, but didn't delve super deep into it. I completely agree; we are more in contact with authors than ever before, and it may make us feel that we know them more than we actually do.
Such a great discussion! I really like the analogy of supporting the author being an investment - you buy because you believe in it but returns are not guaranteed. If you invest in Amazon stocks you become a shareholder of the company, that still doesn’t give you the right to require them to come out with products you want or change their company policies just because you invested in it.
Yeah and a promising company might tank after you buy stock 🤷♀️
That analogy doesn't make any sense at all lol
I was nodding through the whole video. Then I turned my head to look at all my One Piece volumes and thought "screw ASOIF and Kingkiller, I hope I don't die before seeing the end of One Piece" hah
I googled One Piece and see that it has an impressive 98 volumes! How many until it's finished?
@@Bookborn Good question! The fandom just celebrated the 1000 chapter in Jan. My guess is 5-6 more years.
@@PhilBrillant That's crazy impressive. I'm praying the fandom gets what they want...a finished story!
@@Bookborn If your a fan of any super hero western medium , I'd highly recommend it ! The world building is up there with Sanderson's cosmere
I’m with you. They don’t owe us their stories, but a little pleasant communication is always nice. Martin does try his best to let fans know he’s working on it, and he still gets crapped on. Honestly I think the success of Game of Thrones made some fans a lot more militant against him unfortunately. I will gladly read his next book whenever it comes out. I’ve written two books, with more planned, but writing is hard and I can empathize with Martin. Rothfuss has been kind of an ass in the past when people ask, but lately he’s been talking more conversationally about it on the Eolian channel, so I think he is softening a bit.
Yeah, I can't pretend I follow Rothfuss super closely! I just watched a few of his videos a year or two ago and was like mehhh. I've heard that progress is getting better now, but I'm just more like...great surprise if it comes out, not devastated if it doesn't at this point.
@@Bookborn Yeah I know, it does seem like it may never come.
Been in the SF/Fantasy fandom since the 80s-90s, so I can safely say that yes, we had community and even direct communication with authors pre-internet. Besides the early-net wonders of Usenet and BBSs, there was a long tradition in the States (and the UK, I'm told) of sci-fi conventions and bookstore signings/readings/lectures.
Oh, I totally know there was community and communication with authors. But I'll stand by the fact that it wasn't as immersive or intense. Nobody had the *reach* that we have today.
@@Bookborn I dunno about that. There were notable authors who made themselves very available, and active fan communities that grew quite large.
I'd say if anything it became a lot more democratized. You no longer have to live in the right city, or travel in the right geek circles, to enjoy that sort of author-fan connection. Authors have more tools outside of the publisher/bookstore relationship to connect with fans, and manage their own fanbases.
Before, it was hard once you grew bigger than your ability to manage fan mail & going around to cons.
I think there was a time when Martin mishandled the public relationship aspect by promising delivery within relatively brief time windows, even going as to say that several new chapters were already done and it was certain to be finished soon. That was perhaps how he really hoped it would be. But then he kept pushing that back. Until he finally had to accept that he could not promise any date. And the fans had to accept it, too.
My conspiracy theory is that the horrible ending we got in the TV series GoT was actually what GRRM planned to do but after seeing the terrible response he just dialed back & will now probably never finish it
I don't think that's a conspiracy theory but just like...truth 😬 That's why I think he hasn't been able to write it. Because now he feels like he has to change it.
@@Bookbornit isnt the ending which was the problem, it was the execution that was horrendous. A lot of it was stupid or almost out of character. Martin is an amazing writer, and I have full faith he can pull it off. But the show went of the deep end. They didn't adapt a lot of ADWD at all. And his last book is already superior to the GOT counterpart.
I more agree with you for sure. They don't owe us anything other than honesty and kindness.
Great video! I'm a couple years late to this, but I pretty much agree with your points and conclusion. Although I do think an unfortunate consequence of this is that it seems to have somewhat damaged the trust level of fans across the fantasy genre. I think some readers appear to be more hesitant to start a series that hasn't been completed yet, which I would think must be frustrating for authors, particularly newer ones that haven't established themselves yet.
You got me again bookborn. I was skeptical at first but you earned your "like and subscribe" because you portray a thoughtful approach and I appreciate that. :)
Except there is a written contract: the books. Every plot point, character arc, foreshadowing, etc are promises to the reader that they will be paid off at some point. These books are not standalone stories. They are unfinished works being sold on the promise of completion. I guarantee neither Martin nor Rothfuss would have sold nearly as many books without that implied (or, in Rothfuss' case, explicit) promise. Selling an unfinished work creates an obligation from the author to the reader. Failing at that obligation - or pretending it doesn't exist - is ethically questionable at best.
I'm talking about a contract quite literally though: there is no written contract with the readers, only the publishers. There is an *implied* contract, perhaps, because of what you said - these books are not a stand alone story. And some readers have said to me that they no longer start unfinished series for this reason - since they don't trust them to necessarily finish. It's hard for me to understand, because I love to jump on hype trains so I like reading books before they are all out.
I don't think that authors owe us more books since it's their creation at the end of the day. However I usually won't start a series written by infamous authors like Martin or Rothfuss. Also congrats on 3K subs!!!!! I'm proud of you!
THANK YOU!! It's all cause you guys support me!
Yeah I don't think anyone has any reason they have to start those series. I know a lot of fans have stopped recommending them because they most likely won't be finished and I think that's a fair response.
I like how you look at the subject broadly. Your conclusion has nuance, it's not a clear yes or no. Really nice work here 😊
Though I do think you owe us more videos. Where is the next one ??? Last one was one week ago, that's ages!!! The internet is getting angry, be careful!! 😄
I always post every Wednesday! I know that's an eternity in internet time, but with two young children at home and a pandemic that allows for zero childcare/school/etc, once a week is all I got right now 😅
This appeared on my timeline. And I agree with pretty much everything you said. Traditionally published authors owe their publishers, not their readers. Also, I think huge frustrations and offensive comments (totally not helpful at all) are given due to the lack of transparency.
A good example of this is Jonathan Renshaw, a self-published author with his Dawn of Wonder book. His debut came out in 2015, and his sequel hasn't been released to this day. BUT he has been super upfront about all the struggle, deadline, issues that he faced on his website. And you know what? I haven't sen ANY of his readers giving him a hard time. It's the other way around! All of them are being supportive and tells him to take care of his health first. I think most of the time, readers are kind and patient people who just want to know what actually is going on with their favorite series. If you need, for example, 10 years to write the sequel, tell readers about it.
Just my thought! I'm actually both super amazed and baffled that readers still rant about the delay on these two series EVERYDAY when there are like countless amazing books to read. The sequel will be out when it's ready, if not, I'm grateful to have read the previous books. In the meantime, there are too many amazing books to read in our lifetime already; let's enjoy them! :)
I think you are right for the most part! Although the bigger you get, I think there are literally just JERKS out there who are rude no matter what. It'll always surprise me how people on the internet seem to think the person on the other end isn't real and they can just say whatever they want. But I do think transparency weeds out a lot of it.
@@Bookborn well said!! It's unfortunate but that's really the case. 😔
In response to your investment premise: you could even make an argument about material investment as well: anything you have invested in terms of money has already been returned to you in the form of the book or swag you bought. As to investing time: well that would mean that all the fandoms of shows and books that are done and gone (see Supernatural and Firefly for example) owe their fans to come back and give them more content because of the investment that the fans have made into their art/product/series. But that's not true.
And, as much as it is painful to say, Disney doesn't owe us good Star Wars. We want good Star Wars, but no one owes it to us. Disney can make whatever it wants. The fans will respond accordingly.
YOU'RE LYING PETE. DISNEY DOES OWE US GOOD STAR WARS. HOW COULD YOU.
But otherwise I agree ;) No for real, though, you're right; when you buy a book you've bought the product. The price doesn't include the rest of the series.
You bought it. They didn't make you spend your money on it
@@thomasray Exactly! If you break it down, there's an oblique assumption that fans don't have a freedom of choice in the "you owe it to me" argument
My solution has been to just read the series after it has finished. I think I would like to read Game Of Thrones, but won't until it is complete. This way I can't be disappointed.
I like being in the excitement of new book releases, so I don't mind starting things before it's done. I always feel even if it sucks in the moment, after a couple years the sadness goes away because there are so many other books to be invested in.
@@Bookborn I get that too. I remember waiting for Harry Potter books to come out. Now I am waiting for the last Expanse book so I can get into new releases, but I am an impatient person.
the hard part is staying unspoiled.
My issue with Martin has less to do with him being unable to finish his work for XYZ reason; my favorite author - James Joyce - burned his career to the ground writing Finnegans Wake because he released it piecemeal over 16 years after Ulysses and shook down his patrons for money while procrastinating. So, there's that. It's one of my favorite books. Same with Hideaki Anno and Evangelion, not a favorite, but very much a piece of art. So I tend to be more forgiving of artists in these situations.
What I do take issue with is Martin treating all of his other projects like a business, and like work - the TV Scripts, the Novellas, the Wolf Sanctuary, the Theater, the Executive Producing, the Ancillary aSoIaF books like Fire & Blood a 700 page doorstopper of lore with a part 2 on the way - but the main series - the series for which he is most famous as something more than all that. Clearly, it is within his ability to treat it like work and go at it patiently and consistently. He even has an enormous marketing, editorial, and fan apparatus such as his lieutenant Elio Garcia at his disposal to finish the books if he chose to utilize them.
But he doesn't. And I get that he wants the ending to be perfect, and that he wants to write the wrongs of the shows, and that that creates a great deal of pressure that leads to procrastination. He's human and I have some compassion for his humanity.
But he's demonstrated a discipline and has structures in place that suggests he could finish the books if he genuinely put all of his effort into doing so and yet he still teases us with morsels and maybes for the next book.
He may not owe me the winds of winter, but that doesn't mean I can't read that as being in poor taste, or that I have to be ok with that, when he clearly has both the capacity and ability.
end rant.
Also, solid video.
I think this is a good take on it, honestly. You aren’t being unfair but justifiably annoyed that he seems willing to work on other projects.
Something I really missed talking about in this video is that fans also don’t owe authors to keep supporting them. Like I feel pretty weird about Rothfuss suddenly releasing the first three chapters of doors of stone for hitting donation thresholds (I realize it’s for charity which is a great cause but still felt weird) and so I’m just not reading them lol
@@Bookborn I saw that with the Doors of Stone and I think Rothfuss's Editor's comments about the lack of progress are telling. I agree that readers don't owe authors continued support since the contract is implicit.
As someone who wants to make a living writing, I'm not sure how I'd actually handle their situations which I always try to account for when getting ranty about WoW (I finished the previous book in 2011), but as I've grown older it's become clearer and clearer that even arts that are famous for solitude like writing are inherently collaborative efforts which a ton of people are involved in. Editors aren't there solely to cut out the words you like.
Rothfuss and Martin's perfectionism feels kinda dissonant when recognizing just how many people are there to help realize their vision. More than burgeoning artists who have to rely on their own marketing prowess for self-published books, or on the whims of the publishing world if they're trad pub.
Thank you for getting back to me, though. Much appreciated :D
Totally agree with all your points. Two points for me (that are not argument either for or against) are 1: When you see the author releasing other works, or going around doing lots of other things and you get fans saying "get on with writing xxxxxxx instead" I can definitely see where that sentiment comes from, but again you don't know what else is going on with them etc; 2: I imagine the longer the wait goes on the harder it becomes. I picture these two guys absolutely dreading releasing their next books as people will expect them to be absolutely perfect if they've been in the works for so long. I just hope there's no backlash if they fall short of people's expectations. Another one that I haven't seen mentioned in a long time is Scott Lynch (Gentleman Bastards last book released in 2013) - I wonder if the comparative lack of fan rage about that delay is because he's known to have had health issues (like with Sanderson's comment re Jordan)?
A LOT of people have been in my comment section mentioning Lynch. I think they said his last book came out in 2013?
The pressure is building a lot and I think a lot of fans have built it up to impossible proportions. Maybe that this point it'll be better to wait another decade until everything has died down and then surprise drop it lol
I’ve stumbled upon a few of your videos now and I always really enjoy your discussion. Subbed 🙏🏼
Thank you for the support!
I've always looked at it like this: I'd rather an author take their time and release something good than rush it and have it not be as good. I'm perfectly fine if these series never get finished
Yeah sometimes the finish we imagine in our heads might be better than a super crappy finish...
Good things come to those who wait
I’m so glad Sanderson finished Wheel of Time in such a great way - yes, based on Jordan’s notes and with Harriet’s guidance, but I was so afraid it would be mucked up, and damn was I impressed!
"Owe" would be a strong word, but I would certainly like them more.
As an author, I can attest to series being tough to finish. Of course, my books haven’t sold anything close to Martin or Rothfuss - I’m disappointing maybe one to two hundred readers by not completing book 3 (also 4 and 5).
For me, the first two books (and the prequel) were published relatively close together, but there were a lot of hiccups and snafus in that publishing journey which spanned nearly 8 years. Honestly, I’m not the same writer I was 8 years ago and I’m not in the same headspace to be interested in the series. I’ve moved onto other books (two novels and three short story compilations) in an entirely different genre.
I don’t have anyone even asking if I’ll finish the series, so I don’t see the interest in readers buying it even if I do. There’s a real lack of motivation to go back and complete it.
Anyway, that’s my two cents.
All sensible points.
I think Rothfuss has actually finished the book, but keeps revising and revising and revising. He isn't happy with it and keeps trying to perfect it. That's the vibe I get from him. He claimed to have completed the entire trilogy before he was even published in 2005. Then added the frame story to it for publication, which caused some issues.
I'm honestly not sure where it stands! Because then there was that mysterious tweets some years ago (too lazy to try and find it) where he was like "what story lines do you really want to see finished up in this book?" Which made it seem...not written. Honestly I don't really care. I hope he is healthy mentally (I know he's talked about his struggles) and just lives his life. Hopefully some day that will mean getting us the book.
I enjoyed this video! Long time viewer, first time commenter. Your reason #2, there’s no template for art really struck home for me.
Really great discussion!!
Thanks for watching!
Completely agree with everything you said. Cheers :)
I think authors owe use their honesty. If an author says "I would love for you to read my books, but be warned, I write slowly so don't expect a conclusion to the trilogy any time soon" then that is fair game. But if an author says "It's coming next year" and saying that again and again then that gives false expectations, and maybe I don't want to spend 100+ hours on an unfinished story.
I don't fully agree on the investment point you make. If the author gets cancer then that is fair game for not writing anymore. But writing is free and just takes time, so it isn't exactly the same as investing in a bakery for instance that then doesn't sell enough and is losing money.
I mean at the end of this video I say the exact same thing about honesty! I think an author DOES owe us honesty, and it's why people are increasingly just OVER Rothfuss, who has lied over and over again.
Is writing free? Writing itself doesn't generate money, and as a creative endeavor it can be very difficult to come up with things. It's different then say...baking a loaf of bread which has the same recipe.
I agree with all your points. I do believe that an author owes a publisher for whatever they were contracted to do. Having said that contracts do go unfulfilled all the time for a variety of reasons. Many of which are pretty reasonable reasons (see what I did there?).
I don't know if what the author owes readers is the primary concern, here. There is a lot more going on. For one thing, the fantasy market is dominated by series, and sales are impacted by public trust in those series being written in a reasonable amount of time. How often do you recommend a series, and the other person says they only want to read it if it is complete? And if they explain why, how often do they mention GRRM or Rothfuss (or, less often, Scott Lynch)?
Very few authors are able to live off of their book sales--even some fairly famous ones can't. The reasons for this are numerous and complicated, so I'm not going to blame GRRM for authors having to work 3 jobs. Even so, the culture of distrust does cause problems for lesser known authors. Sure, Brandon Sanderson doesn't have problems selling books, even though he has 6 or 7 incomplete series going--but he is famous enough that he can rely on his own personal reputation, rather than suffer from general opinions of the market as a whole.
And are those general opinions fair? No, they really aren't. Most authors can be trusted to complete their series in a timely manner. For example, Christopher Husberg started his fantasy career with Duskfall in June of 2016, promising a 5-book series. Book 5 comes out in May of this year (and would have been out last June, if not for the pandemic). Whereas Sanderson's *positive* personal reputation helps him--and only him--sell books, others' *negative* personal reputations tarnish the entire industry--and yet do little to hurt them, personally.
That's the main problem--how well a lot of the worst procrastinators are doing, while their responsible colleagues suffer. Patrick Rothfuss is out here getting paid to give speeches about the art of storytelling, when he's never even bothered to finish a story. He's signing TV deals with Showtime. He's chasing clout on Twitter and writing lengthy blog posts about video games he is playing. One could say similar things of some other famous authors. And I think that this is where the real failure to meet obligations lies.
A lot of people feel the way you do in terms of their responsibility to other authors and how this makes it difficult for other authors to sell unfinished works. I have a hard time with that, because how did Martin or Rothfuss sign up to speak or represent all authors? It's just a concept that's foreign to me because I don't expect every author to be like them (and have no problem starting new series).
That being said, your last paragraph 👀 I mean...YES. Like...how does he get to talk about storytelling when he hasn't finished a story? There's got to be another great prose writer that can fill that spot. IDK, I won't lie, Rothufuss' personality has gotten a bit under my skin. He's made some ~choices~.
I personally think that they don't owe a completed work but they do owe a general outline of where things were going and what the conclusion looked like so fans can have some closure. I have a myriad of tv shows where I would be much more content with them being cancelled if I knew what the conclusion looked like (Looking at you Shadow Raiders, Dragon Booster and Storm Hawks).
Once book series became a thing we were doomed. How many TV series that you liked ended abruptly? How many comic books changed their writer or artist, or were simply ended? How about computer games that you enjoyed that are unplayable now on better computers or game platforms? Individual books contain the whole story and can be read time after time. Books in a series can't promise this, and unless the author finishes the series, you are left hanging. I had to wait 30 years to find out the end of one book series. I wasn't happy with the ending, but at least I got one.
Agreed on all counts.* As artists, authors don't owe us readers their work. We're ultimately just along for the ride to wherever their process takes them. Now in these times in which readers and fans do have a bit more access to authors (maybe more then they should sometimes), a bit of an honest and courteous update every once in a while wouldn't hurt either. Readers themselves should definitely be no less respectful.
What authors owe publishers might be a different story though!
*And to add a little something to your great 'Hobbit' example, it's good to also keep in mind that the first edition was also a self-contained story. So it's not like it was originally intended as the first book of a series to begin with, so much so that Tolkien edited it for the second edition to make the links to 'The Lord of the Rings' more cohesive. Otherwise, yes, I'm sure WWII had its fair share in the proceedings too.
Totally agree about the hobbit, I mentioned that a little bit but not enough. Like...the Hobbit is a single story and you honestly need nothing else to add on to it. There's an ENDING.
i agree with you. I mean would i love to get the end of ASOIAF? YES! but if martin doesn't write it, it's his business. like you said: he is honest and tries to update his fans regularly and that is enough for me
Solid points, I largely agree
Wow a brand new video. You make great points. But I would go even further and say they don’t even owe us their honesty or kindness.
I mean technically nobody owes anybody anything. But I'm the kind of person that generally enjoys kindness and honesty and hopes other people give it too. I don't know what it's like having a fanbase, but I'd imagine it's pretty cool and being kind isn't a bad thing to give 'em if you don't want to finish a series.
If I was a famous author I certainly would want to be kind and honest to the fans, but I would do it because I wanted to not because I owed it to them. I love the investment metaphor you used and I think it applies here too. If an author is kind and honest to the fans it also an investment. And I think Sanderson does really get this.
Authors don't technically owe us anything, but they shouldn't be surprised when the fan base loses interest. I hate it when Rothfuss tries to promote the 10 year anniversary editions of this books, because i'd rather get the 3rd book. So I still love his books but i'm ready to try other books. On my impatience I read stormlight, witcher, and re read Lord of the Rings a few days. Also wanna start Wheel of Time and then read Mistborn after that. A few other titles that caught my attention are Rage of Dragons, Bone Shard Daughter, and First Law. We have other options if we got tired of waiting.
Totally agree, and I wish I would've talked about it in this video. They don't owe us anything...but WE also don't owe THEM anything. We don't owe them our continued support and purchasing power if they continue to not deliver on promises. That's fair.
Also WOT, Mistobrn, and First Law are all amazing, great choices.
I think there are arguments to be made on both sides. A big part of this is that many fantasy books these days barely count as self-contained stories. You didn't read A Feast for Crows for the plot arc of that book, you bought it as part of the series. As a stand-alone novel it would be awful. So if an author writes books that are not satisfying on their own but only serve as a bridge to hypothetical future content, then how can they be surprised when people expect that future content? My solution to this is to get away from Trilogy Syndrome. Start writing every book as if you'll never touch those characters again. Or be Brandon Sanderson, I guess.
This is actually an excellent argument. I think it makes commentary on the state of fantasy over all, particularly high fantasy; the trilogy and long series are king. In the longer series, (I think WoT as a good example) it's so easy for the books to all run together as not contained stories.
Also "be brandon sanderson" is also excellent advice, in general.
@@Bookborn I don't even really have a problem with all the long series; I like having a deep world with lots of minutiae and that is often possible via the trilogy or long series. It's just that so many writers fall into the trap of writing each book as a chapter in the one uber-book that they forget to have any kind of recognizable plot arc in the middle books. It's actually something that the Harry Potter books did really well; each book progressed the larger story but all worked to some degree as stand-alone stories.
I think the way you've put it is generally right. I definitely think readers spending their time being angry at writers, hassling them, etc, is - if nothing else - a waste of time. Do something more enriching - read another book, play with your kid, plant some potatoes! But maybe where I'd go slightly further than you is saying this, and it applies to Martin more than Rothfuss in your example: if you're leveraging a fandom to gain success elsewhere, you end up having certain obligations to that fandom. Not the completed book - you can't literally force yourself - but some degree of focus and commitment to that fandom. Martin did end up stepping back from writing TV scripts and side projects to focus on the latest ASOIAF book (this was several years ago, so...), and that was him recognizing that obligation, I think.
Does that make sense?
Totally makes sense. I think that's what I mean with kindness/honesty. Like understanding your fans did get you here and so giving them what you can is just a nice thing to do, even if it's not the completed book necessarily. I totally agree!
I believe that when an author sells the first part of a story (s)he has a moral obligation to finish the story - within reason. I'm a fan of J V Jones, particularly the Sword of Shadows series, and as much as I want her to finish the series I fully accept that she has been through a very rough time, and I appreciate that now that she feels able to write again she has committed to finishing the series. So yes, there can be genuine reasons why an author stops writing mid-series, and that's ok. I'm also a fan of The Wheel of Time, and Jordan was absolutely exemplary in understanding this obligation, and his selfless dedication to ensuring his story was finished was simply heroic.
But an incomplete series is not a creative work of art, it's part of a work of art. Would Michelangelo have been paid (and celebrated!) if he left the Sistine Chapel unfinished to do something else?
When I buy the first book in a series it's with the understanding that the author will do everything within their power to finish the story. When authors don't do this, it leads to readers (like me) losing faith in the artistic integrity of authors, and waiting until a series is complete before buying the first book. This in turn leads to new authors struggling to sell first or second books. So established authors owe it not just to their fans, but to new, struggling authors to finish what they start.
I haven't read ASOIAF or Kingkiller Chronicles, and don't plan to start any time soon. There are plenty of complete series from authors who consistently publish high-quality work through hard work and dedication, such as Sanderson, Joe Abercrombie, John Gwynne, Jim Butcher, Michael J Sullivan, Robin Hobb, Tad Williams etc.
So in short, George and Patrick - I'm not buying it :-)
Something I wish I would've discussed in the video is how authors may not owe us, but we also don't owe THEM anything. We don't have to support their works or their careers when we don't agree with how something is going. Unfortunately in Rothfuss' and Martin's case, they are filthy rich and I don't think they care all that much 😅 But hey, it's the principle that counts.
A lot of people have mentioned it ruining things for other authors. I'm sort of torn on this point and I don't know how I feel about it. I never think it's fair when one person has to represent their entire career. Plus, it's just not something I personally feel at all - Rothfuss has not given me cold feet about starting new series. I don't even think about it, tbh, or connect the two.
Either way, you have great taste because all those authors you listed are 👌
The fans can be so toxic, even if I understand their frustration. It happens in other mediums too, not just writing. Videogames have some of the most toxic fans. They will blast developers for delaying a game, but when something like Cyberpunk 2077 comes out with bugs, they blast it for being rushed. All work takes time
Amen. You can't have both! I think the unfortunate thing is that the toxic ones tend to be the loudest - making it seem that there are more than there really are, and giving a bad perception.
I've not been of the opinion I'm owed anything, and any monetary gain (IMHO) the authors make is for work already done, not towards future returns. I'm no stranger to waiting a long time between books ala Stephen King's Dark Tower series...but I'm definitely in the camp of I no longer care if Kingkiller Chronicles finishes.
For me that frustration stems from times between the first 2.5 books (lest we forget The (really) Slow Regard of Silent Things in 2014) compared to the length of time to completion. It feels like we were led to believe the overall story idea was already set...we knew it would be 3 days of talk from the very beginning, and from the characters PoV all of this has already happened. Given how (relatively) quickly the massive tomes that were Day 1 & 2 came out why would we not have the conclusion in
Totally agree. My excitement has waned a LOT for it. And I'm confused that he said all of the books were written...did he just decide that the last one wasn't good anymore? Then there was that cryptic tweet years and years ago now that was like "so what plot points would you want to see wrapped up in the third novel?" and everyone was like...???? didn't you have this planned?
Who knows what's happening. I'm not holding my breath!
Owe us? After us making them millionaires? I kinda feel - yeah, they do lol. The reason they can chill, no fear for paying the bills and not need to make more and finish their books is because we've made them wealthy from sales, royalties and conventions.
I can adds if they say "no one is allowed to finish my series for me" but if they've no intent to then it's disingenuous. Wheel of Time will always be best example of amicable conclusion. Pratchett gave concent to her daughter but she declined and Tolkiens son carried on with his notes. Taking your story to grave never at least telling us how it ends is morally wrong for long funded and supported work.
Imagine if this was Patreon - pay me under no guarantee you will get anything. It's one thing to be duped in bad investment but another to pay them to preach at cons they're doing another couple of books. They make the words not the publishers, if you say it under a Mic then own your words or simply don't make false promises.
I do think they owe us honesty; and it can be frustrating that they are living off of fans while not finishing their work, but I don't think paying for that work in the first place makes them owe us. As they keep lying about it, though, I agree that it's just...not okay? Just be honest if something has changed and you can't write it now. Give us a couple paragraphs about what happens to the characters.
@@Bookborn yeah as your video said - we at minimum can just ask honesty. Martin has a couple of times gave us rough loose deadlines (missed both) and you've covered Rothfuss (who is every declaring there's to be a FOURTH book now). I guess my opinions are being leaned by these kinds of false promises vs a more objective general one. Thing is likes of Jim Butcher took 6 years between books (divorce amongst others things meant other priorities) but we never doubted he is gonna give us 25 books and to be fair to man after six years he released 2 in a year. Dresden of course ain't no SOIAF but it's about trust and a lot of comments tended to be "I don't buy till a series is finished because we've let these authors erode trust of entire fandoms to no consequence - in fact they're still getting wealthy for it.
It's a two way street as multiple comments are saying, no they don't owe us to complete their story at our pace. But we also don't owe them support when they take way way WAY too long between books that interest shrivels up, especially in Martin's case where he keeps pumping out everything else EXCEPT the one thing we want and yet gets mad at US when called out on it.
Well said! I agree 100%!
These are series that have become so popular and hyped up that it has put so much pressure on them to make good endings. And that is hard to do. I get why it's taking a long time. But it gets frustrating when Martin is working on other things like the shows and not finishing the book series. Oh well, I am not reading A Song Of Ice And Fire until they are all done. But I have read the first 2 Name Of The Wind and the first 3 from Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastards. I am just glad that Brandon Sanderson has a clear plan to finish and has consistently been open with and kind to his fans. I know it will still take awhile to get there but he will finish it
I'm wondering if it'll be another decade...everyone has forgotten about it, nobody is bugging him, and then the pressure is off and Rothfuss just BANG gets out the third book and it's amazing.
@@Bookborn I hope so! There was also news of a TV and movie deal for a prequel series and adaptations of the books. I am not sure if that is still happening but he has probably been busy doing that too
Yes. Publishing is a business with contracts and deadlines, not a feel-good artist moment. Writers sign contracts for X number of books. Promises are made in the said contract then passed on in promotions to us the reader. eg a 3 book or 7 book series if we read the books. There is little wiggle room for 'I am not feeling it' from the writer. Writing is their job. Now do they owe us past said contract... it can be implied if we have invested in the author's works and supported by buying said works. But if they don't sell books or have no new contract then, no. Of course, death or serious illness happens. But I can think of a few authors like Rober Jordan who left an extensive outline and notes or even Philip Kerr who when diagnosed with cancer spent his last months finishing his beloved historical crime fiction series. In today's social media world good writers have a relationship with the reader and the best way to keep that going is to write.
Anyone saying that george doesn't owe fans the books, doesn't know what they're talking about. When you sell someone on a book series that is supposed to have a certain amount of books and an ending, yes you very much owe the fans those books. You sold them the series on a promise that it would have an ending. If george had told everyone that there's a good chance that I'll be too lazy to finish, how many people still would have bought the first books in the series? Maybe 5 people?
It's a completely different story when it's an author just writing random books (one offs) and they gain a following who are waiting for their next work, no they author doesn't owe them anything because they're just writing random one off books. They're selling a book and nothing more, they aren't selling book on the promise that there will be many books and a conclusion later in the future. So yes, when an author decides to make a series of books, absolutely they do owe it to every single fan who spent money. No it is not an investment, the only reason that author shouldn't finish the books is if they sold poorly and no one cared, obviously that's not the case with grrm
See, but I think it's more complicated than "George is too lazy to finish". There's a lot of stuff going into this; mental health and the pressures of having a successful book and tv show; the pressure of nobody liking the tv ending and now you probably are scrapping your original ending and trying to rewrite it; there's all sorts of stuff. And maybe he just IS lazy. Maybe none of what I said is true. But I don't think telling someone "this will be a series" is a contract. It sucks, for sure; and the more dishonest authors are the worse it gets, but...unfortunately this stuff just happens.
This reminded me of Don Quijote: volume 2 only came like 10 years afters volume 1. By that time, someone made a false sequel, which is even refferenced in the second volume 😂
I couldn’t agree more. We are not owed their stories or expect them to be insanely prolific - life throws curveballs. You nailed it though on the honesty and kindness - if you say you are going to do something, do it. Simple as that. I’ve seen fans be just as rude to Rothfuss as he has though, I think he’s just worn out.
Yeah, I should've addressed crappy fans more. I don't condone what they've put him through...at all. Everyone just needs to be kinder. In life haha Also...HAPPY BIRTHDAY AGAIN
I certainly hope George finishes the Song of Ice and Fire series and he is on record saying that this is his "Magnum Opus", but realistically, he doesn't "owe" me, or any other reader, anything.
Scott Lynch needs to be on this list too. The last Gentleman Bastards book was in 2013, closing in quickly on that decade mark.
Lots of Lynch fans in my comment section agree with you today! I haven't started the first book yet, but it was on my list for this year. I didn't even realize it was an unfinished series because I thought the first one was kind of stand-alone. (Guess I was wrong about that?)
@@Bookborn his books are definitely page-turners, very well written. BTW, great job on the channel!
Maybe they owe it to other authors. I am now reluctant to get into a new series until it’s finished. If this is common then new authors may not get support from people buying their books.
Ehhh...not every author can be the one author that stands for all other authors, you know? I understand rescinding support, I mean, after all, you don't owe THEM anything either. I think I'm in the minority that I don't mind reading series before they're finished. There's a fun excitement that comes with it! Even if you get burned sometimes.
@@Bookborn I’m not thinking about any authors standing for all authors. I’m thinking more about the publishing and purchasing environment created for first time authors. If people are reluctant to buy into a new series because they have become accustomed to the idea that series may not be finished, then it could become harder for people to get a start in the business. I agree with you that the creative process cannot be forced and that authors don’t owe the readers. But, if it is a continuing trend, then publishers may want more certainty from new authors that the works they publish will be completed. This could make it harder for people to get the start they need. Not everyone has the funds for self-publishing.