This dude’s absolute mastery of audio concepts is unparalleled. Videos like this one are so dense with information I find myself rewatching it 3-4 times just to catch everything.
Using your ideas since i discovered you four years ago. Your live mixing concepts are so much useful and everything y copied from you seems to work pretty well in live scenario ;) Milion thanks from Spain.
Hey Dave! Do you have any advice for someone mixing at a small bar that only has a very small simple mixer that only has 8 or 12 channels, and actually don't even think it has sub group faders. They don't even have a mains EQ, or any compression either. And I believe it's just a L/R Mains, and a Sub, and a few stage monitors. It's a place I get called by sometimes to do sound, but it's always kind of a nightmare. I have to go down, and look at the mixer, because I think they changed it from last time, but I think it's just the same idea. I saw it last time I was there teching for a band, but didn't look at it up close. I was basically thinking of bringing my own graphic EQ, though I only have one of those blue DBX 2x 16 Band Graphic EQ's, and I think it's unbalanced, so not sure it will work great. I could always rent a little balanced DBX or ART Sterio Graphic EQ. I was also thinking of bringing my 500 series LunchBox that has two 1073's, and two Inductor EQ's, and using one of the pre/eq's with an 1176 for lead Vox, and the other Pre/EQ, and a compressor for Bkup Vox, or if just one singer, then maybe on Kick or Snare. Then I was gunna bring a few Compressors for Bass, Kick/Snare Etc, and also was thinking Id bring a Lexicon for Lead Vox/Snare maybe, and my RND Master Buss Processor for the 2 Buss. For Bass, I'll likely just run my Avalon DI only for FOH to keep it simple. Most people turn up their Amps way to loud anyway, and it's a small place. I was wondering if you had any tips, or ideas also though? I'm guessing if I run out to any of my analog chains, then I'll have to go into the mixer Line level, so hope that will be fine, and not even sure how exactly to set up my Neve MBP Compressor on the Sterio Mix. I know it's a dumb question, but how would I connect the MBP? It's likely not being recorded, so I just have to worry about the sound for this night. Also, whats your opinion on running drum Overheads, or even just a Mono OH? Think it's needed? I'm not going to run my tom's to compressors, but hopefully I'll find a way to run my Neve MBP on the 2 Buss, so should be okay. Thanks Dave!
In a small bar the sound you're mixing is combining with the live sound and your presenting a composite of the two. It's tough because you have limited control, compressors are your friend
Thank you Dave! And thank you for taking the time to produce all these videos for us. I have learned so much just from watching your videos and I do use a lot of your tips when I'm setting up systems and mixing. Much love from Hollywood California
Hey Dave, don‘t know if you even do stuff like that but did you ever check out the WING? We are looking at it on comparison to Allen & Heath mixers and I just don’t know wether that’s a good mixer or not haha. Love your stuff keep it up bro!
Interesting. For drum compression I've always used the "rule of 3's." Which is 30ms attack, 3:1 ratio, 300ms release. This is just a starting point, of course, but I find it really gets you in the ballpark. What I found fascinating is your attck of 0ms. It's my understanding (and I have far less mixing experience than you do, but share your "thirst of acoustic knowledge" paradigm), that slowing the attack allows the transients to breathe freely into the mix before compression kicks in. I have demonstrated this to myself many times live. Essentially, if I do NOT want transients, I set attack @ 0ms (for vocals, for example). For bass, I go back and fourth with the attack time, depending on the tone being sent to the console. . An example would be mixing a kick drum that has zero muffling (wide open). In that situation that 2K "click" or "punch" doesn't exist. So I compress it pretty hard with settings I spoke of earlier, and it really pulls out the almost non-existent transients. . Just thinking out loud.... If I were to guess, based on your video comments, you are purposely not shaping the sound. Conversely, if I use compression on drums, I AM trying to shape the sound. One could use both to both shape the sound of the drums AND another compressor to blend with the bass??? . My credentials: I have been a professional drummer for 42+ years (have toured the world) and just starting mixing about 15 years ago. I have mixed club bands and festivals, but have never been a touring audio engineer. My clients are always happy (which includes audienc, venue owners, audience members, etc.), so I believe I'm pretty good at what I do. . My question would be, "In what situation do you open up the attack time?" . I know you're probably busy, but if you have the time I would be very interested on your take.
Wow, Dave! Also a great video to demonstrate what a compressor is able to... positive AND negative effect... Many musicians don't 'hear' the compressor... in your demonstration in this video it is very audible! Thanks, man! 🙂
Hi Mr Dave Rat. I found the content of this video very exciting and now I am wondering how THIS bussing could be integrated/merged on a M32/X32 with the other excellent suggestion you gave re. having subs on a separate send. Is there a way to do it? How would you do it? Thank you!
@@DaveRat Ooops... sorry! I mean this: I have a single mic'ed bassdrum on Ch. #1; I assign/send to Bus #1 and not to L/R. On that Bus/Group I turn on the comp and assing/send it to L/R. I have DCA #1 controlling Ch.#1 and DCA #8 controlling Bus/Grp #1... I also want to feed the subs separately: let's say to Bus/Grp #9 @ unity gain (0 dB)... should I have a Comp with the same settings on Bus/Grp #9 and have DCA #8 controlling it, then feeding an output going to the sub amp?
you know when Dave says he has some "tracks" to send through. It's going to be something killer! good stuff! What was the video titled prior to this one?
WOW!!! thank you so much for this. The knowledge that you are sharing will help many people achieve the sound that they hear in their head. This was also my first time seeing such a fine piece of tech being displayed. I've only watched a few of your videos so far but I look forward to many more. You are a great educator. Thank you for being true to yourself and the creative vision. Zero BS and a lovely personality. All love from ATL!
Another great topic, Dave. Routing the effects like this is a clean way to keep your live mixes more honest. A good way to help keep that 'crap' in our mixes in check . As always you explain your ideas very well and show the benefits of applying this routing. Nice to see your thoughts shared again via a digital mixer. Not that this couldn't be done on a analog system, but.... . Thanks for sharing. Good stuff!
Dave, do you use any makeup gain when using the comps... i just find my sources lose level when driving them with the comps... i assume you are removing the channels from L&R when sending them into the comp groups?
Yes and yes. Double sending to groups and LR serves no use and messes things up in many digi boards For the subgroup compression, it is et so that it is barely compressing, maybe 3 db or so, so don't really need makeup gain on the comps. Makeup gain and levels are done with the VCA settings
Just a quick question why you wouldn't take your da-88 and transfer them into a d a w? Also not suggesting that you get rid of the da-88 but those are iron-based magnetic tapes and at some point they will fail let me know if you need any extra da-88 machines I think I've got five or six of them and brand-new tapes to go with them
Yeah, I transfer them when I get time. These have been transfered and I have 4 or 5 working da88 but thought it would be fun to use the old school machines. What I do need though is working ADAT machines. I have 4 but only 2 work and I have an entire Rage Against the Machine tour on ADAT that needs transferring.
Gave the buss vs input DCA compression trick a try last summer when you put your earlier video out on it, and the control of the mix it provides is amazing. Now I'll be sure to give routing the fx returns back through a try as well!
Bad DTRS machines?? Say it isn’t so! I’ve just moved my home base and literally threw in a dumpster eight of my thirteen bad 78HR & 38 machines, keeping the others for use as converters. Never has any other major investment of technology been such a washout. I remember spending real money both purchasing and continuously maintaining them professionally. At one point I purchased six new 78HRs shipped to a job location. Three of them were bad right out of the box!!
DA88... a full multiplex DAT squished with 16 bits of pish and hiss. Damn, listen to that snare paper-bagging like a plastic tub. Lovely. Ish. We used to record albums on that. It was the end of the music biz, really. RIAA and plastic disk politics. Now we're all bugs in their spyglass on the internet, instagramming.
Hi Dave!😊 Great video!👍just wondering how you set up the channels before and after the compression? Are the channels before just the channels without compression and then mixed in with the groups that are? Hope this makes sense🤣
Just want to reiterate how thankful I am of you Dave. You really allowed my live mixing to level up. I just did a show last night and utilized the methods you show and thought it sounded great. I loved the sound of pushing my drum DCA into my drum subgroup compression.
Hey Dave, I have had a big 'argument' with another sound guy. I want YOUR definition. I know that VCA is Voltage Controlled Amplifier, but I believe that DCA stands for Digitally Controlled Attenuator. This other guy is arguing that it stands for Digitally Controlled Amplifier. I don't believe that amplifiers are involved. Behringer mentions Amplifier, Allen Heath (my world) says its Attenuator. What is YOUR thoughts? Maybe both depending on the mixer brand? Thanks
Thanks for that added tip about the effects! I was trying to do your method the other day and was wondering why the reverb kept getting louder. Tried it out today by routing the effects back to the group and it works like a charm. Thanks!
Yes, but as long as you are not trying to complicate things by sending to a group and sending to L/R and run everything through groups and use the same compressor on all groups, the added latency is not really an issue for FOH. For in ears, adding latency can alter the happiness of the musicians, which I cover in the in ear vids
Hello Dave, 1st thanks for your work on this channel. In your other Video about Mixing via Subgroups you said Threashold 0db and Vocals +4db. Is it correct 0db=-18 on a Behringer/Midas Console? Otherwise the Compressor would not hit... - right or wrong?
This is VERY interesting and VERY helpful!! This seems like such a well organized way to mix. I do have a question: are all your 32 channels being sent to the MAIN BUS and the GROUPS (i.e. parallel)? Or do you have all 32 channels hit only the groups and the groups are then sent to the MAIN BUS? Thanks for taking the time!
Try to avoid sending a channel to more than one place to be re summed back together. Especially on digital consoles. This method gives more control than parallel compression and eliminates the issues of timing and phase offsets from re summed signals that are created by parallel compression. Send the channels tp groups, groups to L/R or matrix or whatever.
That’s what I suspected, thanks 🙏🏻 It seems like you achieve a cleaner way of compression using your method for sure. If I’m understanding correctly: the channels have gain, gate, eq and zero compression - you leave the compression up to the groups. Drive the channels into the groups harder or softer for compression preference. Your method seems very efficient because it appears you have it set up to require the least amount of outboard gear if you were to replicate this using analog. Again thank you for these videos and explanations.
Another reason to avoid "double bussing" (sending channels to both a buss and L/R), unless you specifically know that your (digital) mixer busses are not a victim of DSP latency: and/or have latency compensation... I find this not a problem on analog consoles and gear, unless something digital is inserted on a bus. What's happening in digital consoles is you main L/R processing / routing and your buss processing / routing are in different DSP modules so there is some latency in either the buss processing and/or the rerouting of that back to the L/R channel. If you look at older Yamaha digital console manuals, (01v96 series for example) they have excellent block diagrams of the signal flow through the console. One of the blocks shows the section of LR and busses as being separate and specifically makes note of the latency difference between routing them in parallel. When I mix on analog consoles with a parallel vocal buss (for group compression and as "booster" buss) I've never heard a problem. Until I used a digital device for compression inserted on my buss, where I would hear flangey phasey sounds on the vocals when the group was brought up. I don't hear this when I do it on M32C consoles, but I do on the x32Racks I have (using only onboard /internal inserts and processing ) I remember when these consoles first came out there was much mention on various forums about how the Midas versions had latency compensation on the buss and effects processing, & that it was a hardware/design thing so no firmware fixes for the X32 series. I don't think I've ever experienced the problem in a DAW, which are usually using built in or plug-in latency compensation...
Hi Dave - can you please explain what do you mean when you say you have some "waves tracks setup on the laptop? Are you using something to replace processing on the x32 or ?
On the X32, do you use linked busses and just turned off the fader linking, or do you not link them so the compressors aren't being linked(which i think the x32 automatically links when linking busses, right?)
Not overly familiar but linked compressors won't allow the compressors to even out left right level imbalances. So I avoid them and this was how I was ae to get it to wotk
Outstanding topic.. i manage my x32. Like wise you have described.. for the past Few years.. mainly kick& bass GTR.. really subs get punchy heart pounding sound .
Thank you for this! Just wondering if I’ve understood correctly, are you suggesting to feed a reverb group into a compression group? I mostly use Yamaha consoles and they don’t normally allow for feeding mixes into other mixes, how would you recommend we get around this?
Thanks for these super informative videos! I do have a question, why are 2 (I presume mono) groups used for one instrument group instead of 1 stereo group with a single compressor? I know you also mention this in the mixing strategy video but I've never understood why this is preferred. Wouldn't this create a more uneven stereo image after compression? As they potentially don't compress at the exact same time? Would love to hear some thoughts on this!
Linked stereo compressors collapse the stereo image, ruin panning intensity, and are generally always bad in my opinion. Many consoles force linked comps on stereo groups. Dump designs
If you pan to one side, a linked comp turns down borg sides. If you have wide stereo sounds with one side louder, instead of compressing the louder one and evening things out, a linked comp turns down the quiet side when the louder side compresses. And yes, test!
@@DaveRat I've played around with this today and found it indeed does make a big difference, awesome to learn this! Also learned that my SQ doesn't really allow for an easy workaround unfortunately.
I knew Chad's drumming before you teased the guitar...lol I remember when the DA-88 came out. Opened up so many possibilities for us living room recorders. Kinda wish SSC was here to tell us the next innovation we should be looking forward to.
Hey Dave, as allways very interesting and thanks again for the cool video. Could you please do a video how u prevent mic Bleed? especially when the singers are standing directly in front of Drum kit and, the drummer hits damn hard to snear. and i cant work much with gates cuz the singers do very low volume harmonies too. In this scenario especially the snear bekomes very thin due to comb filtering (Time offset). Thanks
Holy crap, that explains my reverb issues at times. I didn't realize the lack of control on reverb when not sending the reverb to the buss channel instead of the LR master send.
I've always been one for simple compressors as well. And found I could usually get the sound I want from just about any compressor as long as it doesn't have an over easy compression which I I'm not a big fan of
Thanks Dave for these video.. If I may ask, can you please do a video on a full sound check of all the instruments in a live band of any genre? Would like to see your take on things..
It will be tough to get a band into my workroom. I have done vids on how I sound check though . Not sure if they are member or public side of my channel
@@DaveRat okay will have a look.. But if in any case can you do a video on how to work on beam steering on line arrays for a big crowd.. How do we split the power of the LA to section planes on the audience field.. For example we have a 300 - 400 feet vertical distance to cover how big our LA should be.. And how do we split them, provided we have amplitude tolerance of high frequencies from front to back of 6db..
For that stuff I would just put it in the sound vision and it's pretty good Auto calculating most of that stuff and you can see exactly what's going on
Great video as always Dave 👍 If i remember right, you said in another video that you always run all group compressors with the same ratio, i.e 3. Do i remember right?? And more, not all compressors has a "hold" setting, so how much would you extend the release by then? Cheers 🙂
Hey Dave, Keith from the Venue here... so that was a cool video. I set my VCA's up exactly the same way when we first discussed the group compression. Probably over a year ago. Watching the video was like you were running my board, lol It is really the only smart way i think. Then i deployed the double hung PA method using the matrix and wow! I run vox and bass into one, the rest into the other. So clear and punchy. Maybe a video showing that would be helpful to others? As always, great work and appreciate you sharing the knowledge. We can all be better Sound Humans!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge , what ratio are you using for each group of instruments also since your not linking each subgroup are you using separate compressors for each subgroup ? Also on a different subject where can I find info on speaker processing, have you made any videos on this subject? How can I create more headroom I seem to always be pushing my mix to the limit always trying to keep vocals on top , following the rules of gain structure mixer is M32 DAS Aero 20 line Array 3-4 over 2 (this is mostly on one of the rigs I work on most the time, I don’t usually have this problem on other rigs trying to figure out what we’re doing wrong, I’m very seasoned on mixing toured around the world for 35 years so most venues had system techs I’m trying to catch up with technical stuff most the stuff I did was very organic sorry for the long question I was trying to keep it short any info on these topics would be appreciated
Yes separate compressors and I use three to one or four to one ratio. Any hard limiting that's needed is done on the individual channels As far as getting more headroom this strategy can do exactly that
@@DaveRat thanks Dave when I first started of in the late 80’s the band I was working w used to do a lot of la concerts many time I ran into the Scorpion mixers if I remember correctly this was one of your designs that’s when I first heard of about you …
I have a Behringer XR18. It’s only got 6 busses and 4 stereo FX channels. I’ve trued replicating this setup but am curious how you would do it in that limited environment.
Same idea as with the X32 but with less busses and Fx chans. Treat the FX return tracks as individual channels : send them to your busses, which would be your subgroups. Don't forget to unsend all the individual tracks from the main mix LR, since they're all going to the subgroups (and then the subgroups are going to the main LR).
Wow, this is so subjectively weird for me, that this tune would be used for this compression tip. Because this was THE album which first made me look into compression (back in '99, I couldn't put my finger on what I was hearing on the drums that I hadn't noticed on their previous albums) 🙃
@@DaveRat Oh, I totally got that! My comment was dumb- I was just referring to the song choice, which I associate with the studio album which first drew my attention to compression (and FWIW, I prefer your results by far) 🙏👍💯
@@DaveRat Wow, I never actually considered that! But indeed... An early attack, which actually seemed to work at the time 🤔 I'm just glad the dust is finally settling on that war, and there are still some passionate Dave Rats in the world, willing to share their wisdom... Making subtlety and dynamic range great again 😉🙏💯💯
Dave, Is it possible to use dolby atmos on PC? I have many speakers and amps, but nothing to hook them on. I have a 7.1 system, but I was hoping to add more channels. Thank you for all you do.
Hey hey Matt! I don't think I saved the file but I will look for it and if I do have it I will post it on the channel members telegram account. Just know that the file if I do find it will be for reference it's not really set up to mix with as I just built it for the demo. Also I will gladly walk you through the setup and answer any questions if you can make it to one of the member Zoom chats
Great video. Is this mainly only applicable to live front of house mixing or studio use as well? I’m mixing in the box just midi instruments but trying to do it right.
Thanks for the indepth videos! Concerning your dca assignment, you put several subgroups on individual dcas, and then all subgroups (the compressing ones at least) on another dca group, so eg the bass subgroup will have the bass dca and the all-groups dca assigned. As i understand it, if a source has multiple dcas assigned, the lower dca fader counts, so eg you pull down 'all-groups' dca, then you can't push the bass because, the all groups dca with the lower amount overides the bass only dca. Is my understanding not true, or does this not matter so much, or whats your understanding of this?
@dave rat : amazing video ! One question though : you said that with this workflow you would route ALL the individual channels to subgroups, because having some individual channels not going to subgroups can cause problems due to latency discrepancies between the channels going to subgroups vs the channels directly going to the main LR mix.. Is it also an issue on ANALOG boards as well ? Just wondering if i also have to send ALL my individual channels to subgroups if i start using them.
Excellent video, love seeing it in practice! If your console didn’t allow you to control sub groups via DCA, would having all channels go to DCA 1 and then compensating with the master fader have a similar effect?
Yes assigning all the channels to one VCA or DCA. Hand designing each logical instrument to a VCA or DCA, allows boosting the entire mix or each logical instrument before the groups. And using the Left Right master and or group faders gives you control of those levels after the group. And once you have before and after compressed group controls you're good to go
Cheers Dave man, mighty craic and learning to be had here. Are you keeping master sends at a nominal level for your effects or are you using more sends of individual tracks?
Really? Sounds like you are assuming efx re routed to L/R. Efx to L/R is a bummer whenever using subgroup mixing because dropping the groups leaves the efx still going. Maybe give a ponder to just routing the EFX to the subgroups of the instruments that they are used on.
7:10 You drove the kick+snare group into compression by driving the DCA higher and lowering the groups to compensate loudness, yes? Could you not acheive the same result by performing the opposite move? I.e. by raising the group faders and lowering the DCA to compensate?
I thought I showed that raising the channels and reducing the groups increases compression and raising the groups and decreasing the channels reduces compression
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This dude’s absolute mastery of audio concepts is unparalleled. Videos like this one are so dense with information I find myself rewatching it 3-4 times just to catch everything.
🎛️👍🎛️
I love how he doesn't even mention that the music playing is the Chili Peppers. So casual.
🤙🫴🤙
Also very self explanatory
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Using your ideas since i discovered you four years ago. Your live mixing concepts are so much useful and everything y copied from you seems to work pretty well in live scenario ;) Milion thanks from Spain.
Buenos !!! España!!
Thanks for that, really enjoyed it. Nice to also see you do more advanced stuff on the X32. (Advanced as in real life application)
Cool cool and thank you William
I just appreciate how you take your tricks of the analog world into the new digital one. Thumbs up!
🤙👍🤙
Hey Dave! Do you have any advice for someone mixing at a small bar that only has a very small simple mixer that only has 8 or 12 channels, and actually don't even think it has sub group faders. They don't even have a mains EQ, or any compression either. And I believe it's just a L/R Mains, and a Sub, and a few stage monitors. It's a place I get called by sometimes to do sound, but it's always kind of a nightmare. I have to go down, and look at the mixer, because I think they changed it from last time, but I think it's just the same idea. I saw it last time I was there teching for a band, but didn't look at it up close.
I was basically thinking of bringing my own graphic EQ, though I only have one of those blue DBX 2x 16 Band Graphic EQ's, and I think it's unbalanced, so not sure it will work great. I could always rent a little balanced DBX or ART Sterio Graphic EQ. I was also thinking of bringing my 500 series LunchBox that has two 1073's, and two Inductor EQ's, and using one of the pre/eq's with an 1176 for lead Vox, and the other Pre/EQ, and a compressor for Bkup Vox, or if just one singer, then maybe on Kick or Snare. Then I was gunna bring a few Compressors for Bass, Kick/Snare Etc, and also was thinking Id bring a Lexicon for Lead Vox/Snare maybe, and my RND Master Buss Processor for the 2 Buss. For Bass, I'll likely just run my Avalon DI only for FOH to keep it simple. Most people turn up their Amps way to loud anyway, and it's a small place.
I was wondering if you had any tips, or ideas also though? I'm guessing if I run out to any of my analog chains, then I'll have to go into the mixer Line level, so hope that will be fine, and not even sure how exactly to set up my Neve MBP Compressor on the Sterio Mix. I know it's a dumb question, but how would I connect the MBP? It's likely not being recorded, so I just have to worry about the sound for this night. Also, whats your opinion on running drum Overheads, or even just a Mono OH? Think it's needed? I'm not going to run my tom's to compressors, but hopefully I'll find a way to run my Neve MBP on the 2 Buss, so should be okay.
Thanks Dave!
In a small bar the sound you're mixing is combining with the live sound and your presenting a composite of the two.
It's tough because you have limited control, compressors are your friend
Thank you Dave! And thank you for taking the time to produce all these videos for us. I have learned so much just from watching your videos and I do use a lot of your tips when I'm setting up systems and mixing.
Much love from Hollywood California
So cool and thank you!!!
Hey Dave, don‘t know if you even do stuff like that but did you ever check out the WING? We are looking at it on comparison to Allen & Heath mixers and I just don’t know wether that’s a good mixer or not haha. Love your stuff keep it up bro!
I have not, perhaps I will when I have some time
Very late comment, but with this setup running on an x32 you wouldn't have any busses leftover for monitors would you?
The x-32 has 16 outs so you should be able to use eight of these for subgroups and 8 more for monitor mixes.
And the DCAs are separate.
Man thanks for the RHCP for this video. Some of the best examples of drums and bass relationship too. 😎😎🎶🎶
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Interesting. For drum compression I've always used the "rule of 3's." Which is 30ms attack, 3:1 ratio, 300ms release. This is just a starting point, of course, but I find it really gets you in the ballpark. What I found fascinating is your attck of 0ms. It's my understanding (and I have far less mixing experience than you do, but share your "thirst of acoustic knowledge" paradigm), that slowing the attack allows the transients to breathe freely into the mix before compression kicks in. I have demonstrated this to myself many times live. Essentially, if I do NOT want transients, I set attack @ 0ms (for vocals, for example). For bass, I go back and fourth with the attack time, depending on the tone being sent to the console.
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An example would be mixing a kick drum that has zero muffling (wide open). In that situation that 2K "click" or "punch" doesn't exist. So I compress it pretty hard with settings I spoke of earlier, and it really pulls out the almost non-existent transients.
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Just thinking out loud.... If I were to guess, based on your video comments, you are purposely not shaping the sound. Conversely, if I use compression on drums, I AM trying to shape the sound. One could use both to both shape the sound of the drums AND another compressor to blend with the bass???
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My credentials: I have been a professional drummer for 42+ years (have toured the world) and just starting mixing about 15 years ago. I have mixed club bands and festivals, but have never been a touring audio engineer. My clients are always happy (which includes audienc, venue owners, audience members, etc.), so I believe I'm pretty good at what I do.
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My question would be, "In what situation do you open up the attack time?"
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I know you're probably busy, but if you have the time I would be very interested on your take.
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Wow, Dave! Also a great video to demonstrate what a compressor is able to... positive AND negative effect... Many musicians don't 'hear' the compressor... in your demonstration in this video it is very audible! Thanks, man! 🙂
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I was just playing around with something similar on my X32 based on your Live Mixing Strategy video. Suddenly feels like I'm out of busses :V
Yeah,, pushing things better often reaches gear limits
Soundy McSoundface? Was Bump Truck ever considered?
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Hi Mr Dave Rat. I found the content of this video very exciting and now I am wondering how THIS bussing could be integrated/merged on a M32/X32 with the other excellent suggestion you gave re. having subs on a separate send. Is there a way to do it? How would you do it? Thank you!
Not sure what you mean
@@DaveRat Ooops... sorry! I mean this: I have a single mic'ed bassdrum on Ch. #1; I assign/send to Bus #1 and not to L/R. On that Bus/Group I turn on the comp and assing/send it to L/R. I have DCA #1 controlling Ch.#1 and DCA #8 controlling Bus/Grp #1... I also want to feed the subs separately: let's say to Bus/Grp #9 @ unity gain (0 dB)... should I have a Comp with the same settings on Bus/Grp #9 and have DCA #8 controlling it, then feeding an output going to the sub amp?
Not really relevant but is this like a scar tissue jam or demo or something... Awesome as always
😃
He said live tracks so probably from a show/concert they did
It's the red hot chili peppers playing live.
I neither confirm nor deny
😂
Please how do i send the reverb to the subgroup? Any help?
Return the reverb to an input channel or 2 channels panned in stereo and send the channel(s) to the subgroup(s)
you know when Dave says he has some "tracks" to send through. It's going to be something killer! good stuff! What was the video titled prior to this one?
Cool cool Bobby, here is the link. It's members only vid that will prob never go public but you have access!
th-cam.com/video/RbTLznd4lGQ/w-d-xo.html
@@DaveRat Thanks Dave! You Rule!
And thank you Bobby!
WOW!!! thank you so much for this. The knowledge that you are sharing will help many people achieve the sound that they hear in their head. This was also my first time seeing such a fine piece of tech being displayed. I've only watched a few of your videos so far but I look forward to many more. You are a great educator. Thank you for being true to yourself and the creative vision. Zero BS and a lovely personality. All love from ATL!
So cool and thank you!
Another great topic, Dave. Routing the effects like this is a clean way to keep your live mixes more honest. A good way to help keep that 'crap' in our mixes in check . As always you explain your ideas very well and show the benefits of applying this routing. Nice to see your thoughts shared again via a digital mixer. Not that this couldn't be done on a analog system, but.... . Thanks for sharing. Good stuff!
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Dave, do you use any makeup gain when using the comps... i just find my sources lose level when driving them with the comps... i assume you are removing the channels from L&R when sending them into the comp groups?
Yes and yes. Double sending to groups and LR serves no use and messes things up in many digi boards
For the subgroup compression, it is et so that it is barely compressing, maybe 3 db or so, so don't really need makeup gain on the comps.
Makeup gain and levels are done with the VCA settings
Just a quick question why you wouldn't take your da-88 and transfer them into a d a w? Also not suggesting that you get rid of the da-88 but those are iron-based magnetic tapes and at some point they will fail let me know if you need any extra da-88 machines I think I've got five or six of them and brand-new tapes to go with them
Yeah, I transfer them when I get time. These have been transfered and I have 4 or 5 working da88 but thought it would be fun to use the old school machines.
What I do need though is working ADAT machines. I have 4 but only 2 work and I have an entire Rage Against the Machine tour on ADAT that needs transferring.
@@DaveRat I'll check a buddy of mine used to use a dad and he actually might have 6 or 8 working ones
Gave the buss vs input DCA compression trick a try last summer when you put your earlier video out on it, and the control of the mix it provides is amazing. Now I'll be sure to give routing the fx returns back through a try as well!
Love this and keep me updated
Bad DTRS machines?? Say it isn’t so!
I’ve just moved my home base and literally threw in a dumpster eight of my thirteen bad 78HR & 38 machines, keeping the others for use as converters. Never has any other major investment of technology been such a washout. I remember spending real money both purchasing and continuously maintaining them professionally. At one point I purchased six new 78HRs shipped to a job location. Three of them were bad right out of the box!!
DA88... a full multiplex DAT squished with 16 bits of pish and hiss. Damn, listen to that snare paper-bagging like a plastic tub. Lovely. Ish. We used to record albums on that. It was the end of the music biz, really. RIAA and plastic disk politics. Now we're all bugs in their spyglass on the internet, instagramming.
Hi Dave!😊
Great video!👍just wondering how you set up the channels before and after the compression? Are the channels before just the channels without compression and then mixed in with the groups that are? Hope this makes sense🤣
I use channel compression on some channels that are wild or overly dynamic to tame them.
Just want to reiterate how thankful I am of you Dave. You really allowed my live mixing to level up. I just did a show last night and utilized the methods you show and thought it sounded great. I loved the sound of pushing my drum DCA into my drum subgroup compression.
Love that!
Awesome stuff. Thanks 🙏 Dave Always learn more
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Super helpful video as always... thanks... having myself an x32 and hearing RHCP through it made my day 🤣
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Hey Dave, I have had a big 'argument' with another sound guy. I want YOUR definition. I know that VCA is Voltage Controlled Amplifier, but I believe that DCA stands for Digitally Controlled Attenuator. This other guy is arguing that it stands for Digitally Controlled Amplifier. I don't believe that amplifiers are involved. Behringer mentions Amplifier, Allen Heath (my world) says its Attenuator. What is YOUR thoughts? Maybe both depending on the mixer brand? Thanks
Oh my it's one of those terms that stands for whatever the manufacturer wants it to be. It could be either or both
You can boost the DCA, so why would it be called an attenuator? I agree with Dave though
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Thanks for that added tip about the effects! I was trying to do your method the other day and was wondering why the reverb kept getting louder. Tried it out today by routing the effects back to the group and it works like a charm. Thanks!
Yes I haven't tried it but I do believe it has the same input preamp and part of the reason the 41 is so popular
dave, how can one access these stems to practice on my own x32 pretty pretty please with lots of lovemon top xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The importance of my industry reputation exceeds my desire for generosity. Some things I can't share
@@DaveRat worth a try. thank you for all your knowledge sharing :)
Thanks Dave I just started playing around with this. I run my subs on the mono feed. How does that work with your sub groups? Any changes being made ?
Hi Dave, thanks for sharing your ideas! I have a question, why use 3 channels for bass? Stereo? How to use it?
Very cool! I think you already covered it but it adds latency to insert a compressor from the effects rack on a group bus, right?
Yes, but as long as you are not trying to complicate things by sending to a group and sending to L/R and run everything through groups and use the same compressor on all groups, the added latency is not really an issue for FOH.
For in ears, adding latency can alter the happiness of the musicians, which I cover in the in ear vids
Thank you Dave! This was amazing!
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Always interesting Dave! Much appreciation and respect! Keep them coming brother
Cool cool Paul!
Hello Dave, 1st thanks for your work on this channel. In your other Video about Mixing via Subgroups you said Threashold 0db and Vocals +4db. Is it correct 0db=-18 on a Behringer/Midas Console? Otherwise the Compressor would not hit... - right or wrong?
Yeah that sounds right most digital consoles have a minus 18 correlates to 0 dB on an analog console
Thank you Dave. I’m glad there is a platform to learn from someone like you. Thanks again
Cool cool thank you Mark
This is VERY interesting and VERY helpful!! This seems like such a well organized way to mix.
I do have a question: are all your 32 channels being sent to the MAIN BUS and the GROUPS (i.e. parallel)? Or do you have all 32 channels hit only the groups and the groups are then sent to the MAIN BUS? Thanks for taking the time!
Try to avoid sending a channel to more than one place to be re summed back together. Especially on digital consoles. This method gives more control than parallel compression and eliminates the issues of timing and phase offsets from re summed signals that are created by parallel compression.
Send the channels tp groups, groups to L/R or matrix or whatever.
That’s what I suspected, thanks 🙏🏻 It seems like you achieve a cleaner way of compression using your method for sure.
If I’m understanding correctly: the channels have gain, gate, eq and zero compression - you leave the compression up to the groups. Drive the channels into the groups harder or softer for compression preference.
Your method seems very efficient because it appears you have it set up to require the least amount of outboard gear if you were to replicate this using analog.
Again thank you for these videos and explanations.
Correct, except some channels that have big volume changes may have limiters to tame them down before they get to the groups
Another reason to avoid "double bussing" (sending channels to both a buss and L/R), unless you specifically know that your (digital) mixer busses are not a victim of DSP latency: and/or have latency compensation...
I find this not a problem on analog consoles and gear, unless something digital is inserted on a bus.
What's happening in digital consoles is you main L/R processing / routing and your buss processing / routing are in different DSP modules so there is some latency in either the buss processing and/or the rerouting of that back to the L/R channel.
If you look at older Yamaha digital console manuals, (01v96 series for example) they have excellent block diagrams of the signal flow through the console. One of the blocks shows the section of LR and busses as being separate and specifically makes note of the latency difference between routing them in parallel.
When I mix on analog consoles with a parallel vocal buss (for group compression and as "booster" buss) I've never heard a problem. Until I used a digital device for compression inserted on my buss, where I would hear flangey phasey sounds on the vocals when the group was brought up.
I don't hear this when I do it on M32C consoles, but I do on the x32Racks I have (using only onboard /internal inserts and processing )
I remember when these consoles first came out there was much mention on various forums about how the Midas versions had latency compensation on the buss and effects processing, & that it was a hardware/design thing so no firmware fixes for the X32 series.
I don't think I've ever experienced the problem in a DAW, which are usually using built in or plug-in latency compensation...
That's Flea, isn't it? Hell yeah. 😃
Hi Dave - can you please explain what do you mean when you say you have some "waves tracks setup on the laptop?
Are you using something to replace processing on the x32 or ?
No I'm just playing a recording
@@DaveRat Thanks. Lots of concepts and information in that video and didn't want to miss anything.
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On the X32, do you use linked busses and just turned off the fader linking, or do you not link them so the compressors aren't being linked(which i think the x32 automatically links when linking busses, right?)
Not overly familiar but linked compressors won't allow the compressors to even out left right level imbalances.
So I avoid them and this was how I was ae to get it to wotk
Outstanding topic.. i manage my x32. Like wise you have described.. for the past Few years.. mainly kick& bass GTR.. really subs get punchy heart pounding sound .
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@@DaveRat thanks Sir lots to learn from you..
Awesome
Huh I wonder what those tapes are from 😉. I played the shit out of the recording from the I'm With You show I saw, that was a really cool thing.
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Thank you for this! Just wondering if I’ve understood correctly, are you suggesting to feed a reverb group into a compression group? I mostly use Yamaha consoles and they don’t normally allow for feeding mixes into other mixes, how would you recommend we get around this?
Vox verb returns get treated like additional vox. And route the same as Vox
Thank you Dave I appreciate your videos.
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Thanks for these super informative videos! I do have a question, why are 2 (I presume mono) groups used for one instrument group instead of 1 stereo group with a single compressor? I know you also mention this in the mixing strategy video but I've never understood why this is preferred. Wouldn't this create a more uneven stereo image after compression? As they potentially don't compress at the exact same time? Would love to hear some thoughts on this!
Linked stereo compressors collapse the stereo image, ruin panning intensity, and are generally always bad in my opinion.
Many consoles force linked comps on stereo groups. Dump designs
@@DaveRat Okay thanks for your reply! I'm gonna play around and see if I can hear the difference myself.
If you pan to one side, a linked comp turns down borg sides.
If you have wide stereo sounds with one side louder, instead of compressing the louder one and evening things out, a linked comp turns down the quiet side when the louder side compresses.
And yes, test!
@@DaveRat I've played around with this today and found it indeed does make a big difference, awesome to learn this! Also learned that my SQ doesn't really allow for an easy workaround unfortunately.
Cool and yeah, annoying that console makers are not aware of what mixing control is better
I knew Chad's drumming before you teased the guitar...lol I remember when the DA-88 came out. Opened up so many possibilities for us living room recorders. Kinda wish SSC was here to tell us the next innovation we should be looking forward to.
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Hey Dave, as allways very interesting and thanks again for the cool video. Could you please do a video how u prevent mic Bleed? especially when the singers are standing directly in front of Drum kit and, the drummer hits damn hard to snear. and i cant work much with gates cuz the singers do very low volume harmonies too. In this scenario especially the snear bekomes very thin due to comb filtering (Time offset). Thanks
Have you watched the vid I did on selecting the right vocal mic?
hi Dave!
Excellent video!!! I use the x32 in my work ☺
Thanks!! greetings from Argentina
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Anybody know a compressor in Ableton that can hold?
Holy crap, that explains my reverb issues at times. I didn't realize the lack of control on reverb when not sending the reverb to the buss channel instead of the LR master send.
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The original surfer dude :)
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i’ve been using the stock x32 compressor with those settings for forever and people think it’s crazy
I've always been one for simple compressors as well. And found I could usually get the sound I want from just about any compressor as long as it doesn't have an over easy compression which I I'm not a big fan of
Thanks Dave for these video..
If I may ask, can you please do a video on a full sound check of all the instruments in a live band of any genre? Would like to see your take on things..
It will be tough to get a band into my workroom.
I have done vids on how I sound check though .
Not sure if they are member or public side of my channel
@@DaveRat okay will have a look.. But if in any case can you do a video on how to work on beam steering on line arrays for a big crowd.. How do we split the power of the LA to section planes on the audience field.. For example we have a 300 - 400 feet vertical distance to cover how big our LA should be.. And how do we split them, provided we have amplitude tolerance of high frequencies from front to back of 6db..
For that stuff I would just put it in the sound vision and it's pretty good Auto calculating most of that stuff and you can see exactly what's going on
Great video, thanks Dave! I've never thought of bringing the reverb sends back into the bus groups, I will try that on my next mix.
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Great video as always Dave 👍
If i remember right, you said in another video that you always run all group compressors with the same ratio, i.e 3.
Do i remember right??
And more, not all compressors has a "hold" setting, so how much would you extend the release by then?
Cheers 🙂
Typically 2:1 to 4:1. And I don't use much in the way of hold unless I hear pumping sounds
Awesome! Thank U! thank u so much…. i liked the fx on the compressed group a lot!
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People own dogs that fit them. Mr. Rat, you prove it. Beautiful dog.
👍👍👍 love pups!!!
These were some great tips Dave. I'll practice with them just as you showed and see who it works for me, thanks.
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Q. Why are there 2 bass tracks? Is 1 DI and other amp feed?
Maybe watch the older vid I did on mix steategy
@@DaveRat Just did thanks. For anyone wondering, he uses 3, Bass clean, dirty & mic
Hey Dave, Keith from the Venue here... so that was a cool video. I set my VCA's up exactly the same way when we first discussed the group compression. Probably over a year ago. Watching the video was like you were running my board, lol It is really the only smart way i think.
Then i deployed the double hung PA method using the matrix and wow!
I run vox and bass into one, the rest into the other. So clear and punchy. Maybe a video showing that would be helpful to others? As always, great work and appreciate you sharing the knowledge. We can all be better Sound Humans!
So cool! Yeah, I could a multi system vid. Will ponder the setup
@@DaveRat Just extending my support for this idea-I'm fascinated by how this would sound in an A/B comparison especially! Thanks for all you do.
Cool cool, I built some speakers for exactly that type of demo.
kool kool. tanks tanks
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Thank you for sharing your knowledge , what ratio are you using for each group of instruments also since your not linking each subgroup are you using separate compressors for each subgroup ? Also on a different subject where can I find info on speaker processing, have you made any videos on this subject? How can I create more headroom I seem to always be pushing my mix to the limit always trying to keep vocals on top , following the rules of gain structure mixer is M32 DAS Aero 20 line Array 3-4 over 2 (this is mostly on one of the rigs I work on most the time, I don’t usually have this problem on other rigs trying to figure out what we’re doing wrong, I’m very seasoned on mixing toured around the world for 35 years so most venues had system techs I’m trying to catch up with technical stuff most the stuff I did was very organic sorry for the long question I was trying to keep it short any info on these topics would be appreciated
Yes separate compressors and I use three to one or four to one ratio.
Any hard limiting that's needed is done on the individual channels
As far as getting more headroom this strategy can do exactly that
@@DaveRat thanks Dave when I first started of in the late 80’s the band I was working w used to do a lot of la concerts many time I ran into the Scorpion mixers if I remember correctly this was one of your designs that’s when I first heard of about you …
Interesting way of mixing. I've never mixed with subgroups before, I have to try that sometime!
I've done other vids on mix strategy that may be interesting
Awesome video Dave! I take this could be done on a Midas M32R as well?
Never used one but should do
Could you please post the saved scene for this? It would be awesome to explore.
Oh my, I made this vid months ago and wiped the scene since. It was messy and thrown together for the vid demo. Not dialed up to actually mix with
I have a Behringer XR18. It’s only got 6 busses and 4 stereo FX channels. I’ve trued replicating this setup but am curious how you would do it in that limited environment.
Same idea as with the X32 but with less busses and Fx chans.
Treat the FX return tracks as individual channels : send them to your busses, which would be your subgroups.
Don't forget to unsend all the individual tracks from the main mix LR, since they're all going to the subgroups (and then the subgroups are going to the main LR).
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This is another world ive yet to enter
Thanks for continuing to express your love for music and sound…
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Where is the last video, mentioned around 2:09? Thanks.
I think it's on the member side of my channel
Thank you, Dave! Very usefull tips. Love it!
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Thanks for the video. This has opened my eyes to another level of mixing
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Thank you for this Dave!! You are so cool
Awesome and thank you
thanks, this stuff is a mystery to me, shoulda gone to school for music
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I love Bones! Shyest dog I've ever met...
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nice!
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Thanks again! Great demo to show how it happens. Cheers!✌
Thank you Steve!
Trully goldmine, THANKS SO MUCH!
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Nice video showing the fun concepts at work! Also hilarious to hear RHCP on an X32
Are you allowed to put the stems up for download? I would love to pretend to mix a band I was obsessed with when I was a kid...!
👍🤙👍 no I can't post anybody else's material
Wow, this is so subjectively weird for me, that this tune would be used for this compression tip. Because this was THE album which first made me look into compression (back in '99, I couldn't put my finger on what I was hearing on the drums that I hadn't noticed on their previous albums) 🙃
Well, I don't do any studio recording. Just live sound
@@DaveRat Oh, I totally got that! My comment was dumb- I was just referring to the song choice, which I associate with the studio album which first drew my attention to compression (and FWIW, I prefer your results by far) 🙏👍💯
Ahhh. The compression wars?
@@DaveRat Wow, I never actually considered that! But indeed... An early attack, which actually seemed to work at the time 🤔
I'm just glad the dust is finally settling on that war, and there are still some passionate Dave Rats in the world, willing to share their wisdom... Making subtlety and dynamic range great again 😉🙏💯💯
Cool cool Rocco!
Dave,
Is it possible to use dolby atmos on PC? I have many speakers and amps, but nothing to hook them on. I have a 7.1 system, but I was hoping to add more channels.
Thank you for all you do.
Oh my I don't know that's out of my realm of knowledge
@@DaveRat Thanks for the reply!
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That was a great little tute on bussing vs vcas. We need them both all the time.
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looooove this dave. is this scene file available for download anywhere?
Hey hey Matt!
I don't think I saved the file but I will look for it and if I do have it I will post it on the channel members telegram account.
Just know that the file if I do find it will be for reference it's not really set up to mix with as I just built it for the demo.
Also I will gladly walk you through the setup and answer any questions if you can make it to one of the member Zoom chats
When you can't concentrate on what Dave's saying because you realise his demo tracks are RHCP rehearsals. haha
Thanks Dave! This is good real world shit right here ✌🏼
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Great video. Is this mainly only applicable to live front of house mixing or studio use as well? I’m mixing in the box just midi instruments but trying to do it right.
It will work for studio as well
@@DaveRat thank you so much!
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Thanks for the indepth videos! Concerning your dca assignment, you put several subgroups on individual dcas, and then all subgroups (the compressing ones at least) on another dca group, so eg the bass subgroup will have the bass dca and the all-groups dca assigned. As i understand it, if a source has multiple dcas assigned, the lower dca fader counts, so eg you pull down 'all-groups' dca, then you can't push the bass because, the all groups dca with the lower amount overides the bass only dca. Is my understanding not true, or does this not matter so much, or whats your understanding of this?
@dave rat : amazing video !
One question though : you said that with this workflow you would route ALL the individual channels to subgroups, because having some individual channels not going to subgroups can cause problems due to latency discrepancies between the channels going to subgroups vs the channels directly going to the main LR mix..
Is it also an issue on ANALOG boards as well ?
Just wondering if i also have to send ALL my individual channels to subgroups if i start using them.
Not an issue with analog
@@DaveRat Alright, thanks a ton !
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Cool cool! Thank you for the tips:)
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This is awesome! Love what your're doing man! How are you able to record what you are doing so we can hear it the way you do?
Recording the left right mix output on a 2 channel recorder
This was very helpful, thanks.
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Excellent video, love seeing it in practice! If your console didn’t allow you to control sub groups via DCA, would having all channels go to DCA 1 and then compensating with the master fader have a similar effect?
Yes assigning all the channels to one VCA or DCA. Hand designing each logical instrument to a VCA or DCA, allows boosting the entire mix or each logical instrument before the groups.
And using the Left Right master and or group faders gives you control of those levels after the group.
And once you have before and after compressed group controls you're good to go
@@DaveRat thank you!
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Thanks for the knowledge over the years.
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Clever... never thought if this before...
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Cheers Dave man, mighty craic and learning to be had here. Are you keeping master sends at a nominal level for your effects or are you using more sends of individual tracks?
I typically would run efx bussed into the groups of whatever instrument the they were sent from
Tom efx buss to tom groups. Vox efx buss to vox groups
@@DaveRat Cool, thanks for getting back to me. Love the content.
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If you CRUSH that mix, it behaves like an FX return.
Really?
Sounds like you are assuming efx re routed to L/R.
Efx to L/R is a bummer whenever using subgroup mixing because dropping the groups leaves the efx still going.
Maybe give a ponder to just routing the EFX to the subgroups of the instruments that they are used on.
Yes, of course. In the submix.
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Great demo Dave!
Thank you Greg!
7:10 You drove the kick+snare group into compression by driving the DCA higher and lowering the groups to compensate loudness, yes? Could you not acheive the same result by performing the opposite move? I.e. by raising the group faders and lowering the DCA to compensate?
I thought I showed that raising the channels and reducing the groups increases compression and raising the groups and decreasing the channels reduces compression
@@DaveRat It looked to me like you were riding the DCAs, not the groups, but I could have been mistaken. I'll have to watch it again, again.
One DCA is the channels and the other DCA is the groups
@@DaveRat Ahhhhh, okay. 👍🙏
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Lovely bit of peppers.
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