That concept of the dragons losing their fire reminds me of something that Tolkien seems to have invented (or popularized): I call it "The dying fantasy world." Have you noticed that in a lot of fantasy stories, the world used to be a much more magical place, but it now barely has very little magic and wonder left? Everything in these worlds seems to be getting more and more Earth-like.
Probably linked to his view on the loss of nature during Europe's industrial era. Middle earth is actually based on our earth, we are the 5th age in lotr
Game of Thrones is the opposite. At the beginning most people believe that the magic is gone. They think that the Dragons and giants are all dead and the white walkers are a myth. They are surprised when they come back.
Tolkien was inspired by mythology and was trying to write something that sounded like mythology. "The dying fantasy world" is a lot like "the retreating supernatural world" where, even when people earnestly believe the myths in a religious sense, there is a tendency for them to say that supernatural activity is less common in the observable "now" but that animals were definitely talking and stuff in your grandfather's time. Christianity has this in the concept of a world that is decaying because it grows farther from God, but I think that for Tolkien, a lot of it comes from the fact that he was inspired specifically by the written evidence of Celtic and Germanic myth, which was never written down by anyone who actually believed it, but by Catholic monks who were documenting "this is what people used to believe in [insert northern European country]". That understanding of myth was constantly feeding back into the layperson's understanding of folktales to become "this is what used to be true for our ancestors here". I don't have any idea which author first presented this as a knowingly fictional concept, but I feel like it's kind of there in some of the themes of The Faerie Queen. It's definitely an element of the books of The Once And Future King, which White was writing around the same time as Tolkien. As these are retellings of the Arthurian legends, it's easier to see the links back to earlier work in White than in Tolkien. Because Tolkien was more creative, and drew from a wider range of mythos, it's harder to see the links to his influences and he seems more like an inventor than an adapter. But if you look at Arthurian legends evolving from medieval to modern, you can find "the dying fantasy world" showing up as part of that evolution I think. So I kind of think that this concept is bound to come up whenever a literate culture begins to start turning either its own pre-literate traditions, or more prominently, someone else's pre-literate traditions, into written fiction.
I'm not a scholar of the Witcher, but it seems to be a theme in that franchise as well as I'm currently playing through Witcher 3 as my intro to that world. Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Halflings are all members of "Elder Races" that are fading out in the face of the rise of humanity.
This is legit why I like Brandon Sanderson's stories. The premise of magic going away in the face of man's rising is so... Just spiteful to our species. Like filling in the holes in the map doesn't "NEED" to signal the loss of wonder.
Dragon as direct creations of Morgoth, (and from what is understood about Morgoth: he not having access to the 'secret fire' that is real creative power) could only come to be by being drawn from him. They are then aspects of his being. This means they were not subject to or bound under Sauron. There are no examples of Sauron ever having control or use of dragons, even though the entirety of Second Age. They were creature of a different order. Something he could not control.
I've always been fascinated by dragons in all mythology. I particularly used to love drawing them in my teens as they were purely mythological, I loved being able to create vivid images from my brain using my imagination.. My very first tattoo was that of a dragon that I had designed... now it's just a blob.. 😂 🐲🐉
I think thematically it's fitting that they weren't there in the 3rd age. They represented greed and many other negative attributes and their power waning on its own instead any kind of decisive battle speaks to the destruction that those corruptive desires can inflict on a person. Fading away into obscurity is oddly apropo.
All the information in LOTR and the Silmarillion was collected by the elves. Once bilbo comes along he marries human, hobbit and dwarf lore to the information that the elves had collected beforehand. It's why we do not hear about dragons much till the 3rd age when they encounter men and become a problem for them. It's basically the history according too them.
I always wanted to know if there was anything I the withered heath apart from the dragons. There’s got to be something for them to feed on and other races up there I would not be surprised if they were some belrogs and other forces that escaped up there after morgoth and souron defeats
the "malice" in dragons and their spirit is essentially a part of the spirit of morgoth, the beast itself does not have the ability to reason or speak but the evil will that was placed inside of them by morgoth does, much like the ring it is sentient and it's where their "magic" comes from. during the first age morgoth was active and using putting forth his influence on all of his evil creations, the dragons since they are imbued with the spirit of malice from morgoth were tied to his will and would come and go at his summoning. after morgoth was imprisoned his influence on everything was far less than it had been. this sort of "freed" the dragons of morgoths constant control but his spirit of malice endured im assuming till it eventually was mostly bred out of them and they reverted to a more animal like state without all of the "cunning" and evil they once possessed. smaug was probably the last of the dragons alive where this sort of malice still was aware enough to be in control
I don't know of Sauron using dragons before he lost the Ring the first time, so even then he must have considered them too much trouble to have as allies.
I'm honestly more curious about what they were doing during the Second Age. All we know is they lived in the Northern Waste, specifically the Withered Heath, breeding and they were sometimes troubled the Men who lived relatively close. There are no specific dragons named, no battles mentioned between them and the free peoples and, though not specifically mentioned, Sauron apparently never tried to recruit any.
the histories of LOTR and the Silmarillion were chronicled by the elves, it's why most of the events centre around them. In the second age the elves didn't really encounter dragons so you do not hear about it, they likely still existed and potentially were killed by and fought with dwarves. you know that scatha was killed by eorl the young in the third age and probably was terrorizing that part of the north for many lifetimes of men going back into the 2nd age.
Agreed. There is a reason why Sauron, despite being the ultimate adversary in The 3rd Age went completely unseen in the story and whom's actions and actions and thoughts are revealed to the reader via reference by other characters. The 3rd age was the transition period from the ancient past to the modern era.
Seemed like there were only "Cold Drakes" remaining. Dragons unable to breathe fire. These were smaller and they probably feared the Dwarves of the Iron Hills and Erebor.
Thank you. Gandalf creating a dragon in fireworks at Bilbos birthday. They were considered not being in these parts for... So many years so yes still in myth and imagination. I love dragons and how Ursular La Quin charcterized them in her Earth Sea series. For me as in spirituality they are forces to clear and transform like alchemists. Just my fantasy. Love Peter's depiction of Smaug though. Dragonslayer film of Disney was pretty good as well. Any thoughts?
If you expand out with games, you have Urgost kin to Smaug from the War in the North game which was talked out of picking a side and then left, and in LotRO, there is Draigoch
You missed something big. Sauron already has an airforce. It's the Nazghul riding the Fel Beasts in the sky. Sauron didn't need the dragons and the Fel beasts were much easier to control.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 i wound not say that. A Dragon probably was way more dangerous than a Nazgul. but the Nazgul were just easy to controll and could not really be killed, only diven away
My two opinions on this matter have often been, first, Tolkien didn't want the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, to be too similar. Sure, they were made at two different times, for different audiences, but once he decided that they were related, Tolkien probably wanted them to seem different, and with Smaug's importance in the Hobbit, if it didn't want to seem like dragons were common enough to be seen in every struggle, they didn't feature in this one. Sort of like the Dwarves; they got their importance in Hobbit, and so barely featured in the LotR, at all. Second, once the story was decided that Gandalf wanted to to help Thorin, to stop Smaug, because he feared the dragon teaming up with the Dark Lord, it kind of became important that the threat Smaug represented was actually significant, and thus its avoidance was notable. If there were other Smaugs, even lesser, and Sauron could have used them to do much of the same thing, it would have taken away from the need to deal with THE dragon, so we don't get more of them because that might invalidate the defeat of Smaug, all together.
“Come not between the Dragon and his wrath...” In the zenith of the III Age, Dragon's wer'e to insignifacnt, for Sauron. A creautures of the bygone era. Creation of the even greater evil then The Lord of the Rings. Maybe he was not sure he could take a firm grip on the dragon kind. Or they lived in such remote parts of the Middl-Earht he simply didn't bother. It would be a pretty hilarious situation when one of the drakes would turn against Sauron, just from pure spite agains the fallen Mayar.
I think that Tolkien didn't really find that the dragons needed to be in the LOTR aside from mention, after all they were Morgoth's creations not Sauron's, hence the reason why Sauron never commanded the respect of Durin's Bane. JRRT understood that loyalty has a tier system, and while the balrogs and dragons would see Sauron as chiefest of lieutenants to Morgoth, he lacked the authority Morgoth had.
It became quiet on the dragon front till Daenerys got those eggs... My guess is, after the magic that influenced them was gone they were wilder...and perhaps not making new dragons
I've always mixed up the names Glaurung, the dragon, and Glamdring, Gandalf's sword. I think it might be due to both kinda sounding like they should be the name of the other, in my head. That is, beyond them both being two syllable words starting with the same three letters, of course, that's probably part of the confusion as well.
Couldn't the Fell Beasts that the Ringwraiths rode in the air be considered to be a type of dragon? I have to say that my fave rendition of Smaug is still the one from the RankinBass animated hobbit, which bears more resemblance to an Eastern dragon. :D
There is no evidence of this, in fact the only known Dragon Slayers are Men or decedents of Men. Every known encounter of Dragons and Dwarves ended in tragedy for The Dwarves.
@@thecollector6746 we don't how bad the fights between dwarfs and Dragons were. Yes, the dragons drove out the Dwarfs from the North, but we don't know if and how many dragons the Dwarfs have slain in these fights. I reacon they killed a couple Dragons, at least the smaller ones.
@grimgrauman7650 We sorta do. We have hard evidence with Erebor and there is the common belief that isn't refuted by the dwarves that the 6 of the 7rings granted to each of the 7 Great Dwarven Houses and formed the foundation of their wealth in The 2nd Age were all consumed by Dragons. That IMO says it all
@grimgrauman7650 There isn't any verified or rumored victories of either Dwarves or Elves over any Dragon. The only known and verified victories over any Dragon is via the race of Men or their decendents (Earendil)
@@mrc3885 i think that like the balrogs, they were to powerfull to submit to any beings lesser in power to then. They were masters of their own will and the inability of evil to remains unified or coherent within itself.
@@luizvalente900 Tolkien said they fled to the north after the fall of Morgoth and generations of Dragons lived out their days beyond the cares of mortal men.
I think what happened was pretty much his original plan! It was just his plan had a lot of “let’s see how things go” sections. I’m not sure he ever was confident the Dwarves would kill the Dragon, just that bringing along someone burglarish like Bilbo was the best way at finding a weakness to do so :)
@TheBrokenSword that makes sense I like that I was thinking maybe the plan was to get bilbo in to steal the kings stone then leave and use it to unite the dwarfs
Gandalf definitely is looking for a way to take out Smaug, because he fears that Sauron might enlist him. When he meets Thorin in Bree, he plants the idea of the dwarves reclaiming Erebor, hoping that Smaug will be killed in the process.
The dragons made a massive war on the Dwarves in the mid 3rd age. They literally destroyed most of the Dwarves kingdoms, which in turn led to the Lonely Mountain being recolonized and made a new target. The Dragons were very active in the 3rd age, but only in the north and dwarves interacted with them near exclusively. There are still many dragons in the North, even after Sauron's defeat.
Almost forgot that. Their deals were mainly with dwarves in the silmarillion. And if i am correct, the book didnt give much details about their wars, except from the steel masks that dwarves wore to fight then, wich must have been a really terryfing battle
Nah Game of Thrones/Song of Ice & Fire Dragons ain't got no shit compare to Tolkien's Dragons mah dude they're just on a whole another level and different breed compare to any other Dragons in Fantasy literature (although some can compete with Tolkien's Dragons but still)
@@genovayork2468 dickhead? speak for yourself boy for I didn't ask Also I'm only just stating facts that Game of Thrones Dragons ain't got no shit compare Tolkien Dragons so how does that make me a dickhead? 😒🤷🏻♂️ Also liking your own comments ain't helping you son
It is interesting that, besides the orcs and troll, non of Morgoth's other servants came to fight for Sauron. The Balrog was doing his own thing, and the dragons were chilling in the north. This makes me wonder if Sauron truly would have been able to recruit Smaug as Gandalf feared.
Gandalf was wise, but not perfect. It was a legitimate fear, since Sauron had served Morgoth back when new dragons were still being made. But I think that Smaug was even more deadly than the Nazgul and Sauron feared having such a powerful beast that might betray him (since Smaug was not controlled by the One Ring). It was the same with Durin's Bane. As a Maia in its own right, it was too close to Sauron in power and thus a danger to him. Sauron spent the War of the Ring cowering inside of Barad-dur. He had as much reason to fear Morgoth's other servants as anybody else did.
If Smaug was awake and approachable... sure. But everyone knows you don't wake a dragon!! Might add that Sauron marketed himself to Morgoth worshippers by claiming he was one and the same. So add humans to the list... none of Morgoth's "creations" though.
@ - Well, the Orcs were Morgoth's as well. But not really any more formidable than Men except because of their numbers. I imagine that elite servants like Balrogs and dragons would be more likely to disregard Sauron because he was nowhere near the power Morgoth had wielded at his peak. So other powerful beings would question why they ought to serve Sauron.
My guesses in these matters go back to the fact that Morgoth lacked the power to truly create new life. He could only shape what already existed. Thus it took time to breed his monsters. But also, I suspect that his monsters could not breed without a powerful Dark Lord to enable then to do so. Sauron may not have been powerful enough to support draconic procreation, hence their dwindling numbers. Apparently Orcs also became rare, and eventually extinct, during the Fourth Age without Sauron to enable them to procreate.
That's what I always thought/assumed. I also think that there were some secrets Morgoth kept to himself. Being the evil guy he was, he may have had trust issues.
@ - Exactly the point. It proves that Sauron lacked any kind of power that would allow him to control dragons. Morgoth could compel the dragons to obey him. Sauron could not. Hence he didn't try to make Smaug serve him because a big, fire-breathing dragon could wipe out his Nazgul (who were vulnerable to fire) and then move onto easier targets like Orcs and Easterlings, finally leaving Sauron trapped in his own tower with a dragon demanding all his treasures. People love to point out that Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant. What they miss is that Sauron did *not* command the Balrogs or the dragons because of his own personal power, but because Morgoth delegated authority to him. With Morgoth gone, Sauron had no authority nor power to command these other servants of Morgoth who were so close to him in power. We don't know how many dragons were left by the War of the Ring, but they might just be barely sustained by remnant power from Morgoth (who poured his power into Arda). They certainly weren't numerous or else they would have been spread out over more of Middle-earth.
Sauron must not have been able to control them because even one half the size of smaug could have taken out a hole army and there for once less army to defend the free peoples! Its like war is a street fight u do whatever u need u poke stab bite whatever to get the victory!
We saw no dragons, one Balrog and one Great Spider (Shelob) only in LOTR. They great and epic past was passing away, and the age of man was rising. Typical thematic element, used to great effect by Tolkien.
No beings served Morgoth out of loyalty, it was always fear or manipulation. This is a big theme when it comes to evil in Tolkien's works, evil has no real friends or allies, only tools or servants who has been subjected in one way or another.
I think the history of dragons in Middle Earth play on how people look at the past. We see great and /or terrible figures like Alexander the Great, Plato, Shakespeare, Isaac Newton and wonder where is the equivalent today? They're here but it will be for future generations to raise them up to where they belong.
The bigger question; wherer were the dragon's during the second age? At least to my knowlege there are no stories from that time involving dragons, unlike the first and third age..
What were dragons a corruption of? For example, orcs are corrupted elves, trolls are corrupted ents. My first thought was eagles, but the early dragons couldn't fly.
The Hobbit was not originally part of the lore of Tolkien’s Secondary World. It was simply a children’s tale that shared some elements of his early Silmarillion. So, Smaug was not a dragon of Morgoth, just simply a dragon. When he later wrote The Lord of The Rings, The Hobbit became inextricably linked to the lore of Arda. The last remaining dragons that Morgoth created were relatively weak and only lived in the far north, had no allegiance to Sauron and therefore took no part in his wars against men, elves and dwarves. Does that explain it clearly enough?
With the power of galadriel and the wizards I don't understand why they let the species of dragons survive! Galadriel could have killed Smaug in one shot. Gandalf and galadriel that have made fast work of that stupid dragon especially if you add Saroman the White. In reality the dwarves should have had a very easy time keeping him out of Erabor! They could have lined the entrance with wind lances and iron spikes dropped or catapulted from the ceiling downwards. That was a fortress city and it was entirely the fault of thorin's and his father and his grandfather that all of his people died. They could have made that place absolutely impenetrable with all the money and skilled personnel they had.
they may do what a vala told them, but they certainly wern't listening to a mayer st George killed one with a spear in hand to hand, shows how normal they got at the very end
i would hate to watch any movie on Morgoth, the Valar or Maiar. Or a series on the White council. Hopefully we get another series of Dwarves yelling about gold...
Bye the way fellas, saw the animation movie of Rohan yesterday, gave it one star, rubbish, there were 3 actions that were copied of LOTR and The Hobbit, the only deceit thing was Mirando Otto’s narration. Hera won the battle but didn’t become Queen, WTF 🤷♀️ Don’t do this sort of thing again, disrespectful to Tolkien’s lore. 😡 it’s embarrassing FFS. Just my opinion fellas👍
That concept of the dragons losing their fire reminds me of something that Tolkien seems to have invented (or popularized): I call it "The dying fantasy world." Have you noticed that in a lot of fantasy stories, the world used to be a much more magical place, but it now barely has very little magic and wonder left? Everything in these worlds seems to be getting more and more Earth-like.
Probably linked to his view on the loss of nature during Europe's industrial era. Middle earth is actually based on our earth, we are the 5th age in lotr
Game of Thrones is the opposite. At the beginning most people believe that the magic is gone. They think that the Dragons and giants are all dead and the white walkers are a myth. They are surprised when they come back.
Tolkien was inspired by mythology and was trying to write something that sounded like mythology. "The dying fantasy world" is a lot like "the retreating supernatural world" where, even when people earnestly believe the myths in a religious sense, there is a tendency for them to say that supernatural activity is less common in the observable "now" but that animals were definitely talking and stuff in your grandfather's time. Christianity has this in the concept of a world that is decaying because it grows farther from God, but I think that for Tolkien, a lot of it comes from the fact that he was inspired specifically by the written evidence of Celtic and Germanic myth, which was never written down by anyone who actually believed it, but by Catholic monks who were documenting "this is what people used to believe in [insert northern European country]". That understanding of myth was constantly feeding back into the layperson's understanding of folktales to become "this is what used to be true for our ancestors here". I don't have any idea which author first presented this as a knowingly fictional concept, but I feel like it's kind of there in some of the themes of The Faerie Queen. It's definitely an element of the books of The Once And Future King, which White was writing around the same time as Tolkien. As these are retellings of the Arthurian legends, it's easier to see the links back to earlier work in White than in Tolkien. Because Tolkien was more creative, and drew from a wider range of mythos, it's harder to see the links to his influences and he seems more like an inventor than an adapter. But if you look at Arthurian legends evolving from medieval to modern, you can find "the dying fantasy world" showing up as part of that evolution I think. So I kind of think that this concept is bound to come up whenever a literate culture begins to start turning either its own pre-literate traditions, or more prominently, someone else's pre-literate traditions, into written fiction.
I'm not a scholar of the Witcher, but it seems to be a theme in that franchise as well as I'm currently playing through Witcher 3 as my intro to that world. Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Halflings are all members of "Elder Races" that are fading out in the face of the rise of humanity.
This is legit why I like Brandon Sanderson's stories. The premise of magic going away in the face of man's rising is so... Just spiteful to our species. Like filling in the holes in the map doesn't "NEED" to signal the loss of wonder.
Dragon as direct creations of Morgoth, (and from what is understood about Morgoth: he not having access to the 'secret fire' that is real creative power) could only come to be by being drawn from him. They are then aspects of his being. This means they were not subject to or bound under Sauron. There are no examples of Sauron ever having control or use of dragons, even though the entirety of Second Age. They were creature of a different order. Something he could not control.
God bless you and your work sir 😇 deep respect from Croatia-Europe 😇😇😇
You're Serb.
Thank you very much!
@@picklerick.n.666 You're a Serb.
@TheBrokenSword Stop deleting my comments.
Sauron was probably worried one of the scally picks would fly off with the ring.
😄
I have had a big dragon tattoo on my arm for 25 years now and I still love it. (The cover of Might & Magic VI; The mandate of heaven)
Sauron : Smaug! Join my forces!
Smaug: And you're the boss of who, exactly?
I've always been fascinated by dragons in all mythology. I particularly used to love drawing them in my teens as they were purely mythological, I loved being able to create vivid images from my brain using my imagination.. My very first tattoo was that of a dragon that I had designed... now it's just a blob.. 😂 🐲🐉
The Welsh flag was a nice touch at the end.
I think thematically it's fitting that they weren't there in the 3rd age. They represented greed and many other negative attributes and their power waning on its own instead any kind of decisive battle speaks to the destruction that those corruptive desires can inflict on a person. Fading away into obscurity is oddly apropo.
FINALLY! Now we’re asking the good questions!
All the information in LOTR and the Silmarillion was collected by the elves. Once bilbo comes along he marries human, hobbit and dwarf lore to the information that the elves had collected beforehand. It's why we do not hear about dragons much till the 3rd age when they encounter men and become a problem for them. It's basically the history according too them.
@@Mith420420 Alr then, thnx you
I always wanted to know if there was anything I the withered heath apart from the dragons. There’s got to be something for them to feed on and other races up there I would not be surprised if they were some belrogs and other forces that escaped up there after morgoth and souron defeats
Dragons are the best villains!!
Or heroes....
The fight against dragons in the past is a symbolic legacy of hope for future generations and how to stand together against evil.
the "malice" in dragons and their spirit is essentially a part of the spirit of morgoth, the beast itself does not have the ability to reason or speak but the evil will that was placed inside of them by morgoth does, much like the ring it is sentient and it's where their "magic" comes from.
during the first age morgoth was active and using putting forth his influence on all of his evil creations, the dragons since they are imbued with the spirit of malice from morgoth were tied to his will and would come and go at his summoning. after morgoth was imprisoned his influence on everything was far less than it had been. this sort of "freed" the dragons of morgoths constant control but his spirit of malice endured im assuming till it eventually was mostly bred out of them and they reverted to a more animal like state without all of the "cunning" and evil they once possessed.
smaug was probably the last of the dragons alive where this sort of malice still was aware enough to be in control
I don't know of Sauron using dragons before he lost the Ring the first time, so even then he must have considered them too much trouble to have as allies.
Only two dragons survived and fled the War of Wrath. Just finished The Fall of Gondolin and it was in Christopher Tolkien’s notes.
I'm honestly more curious about what they were doing during the Second Age. All we know is they lived in the Northern Waste, specifically the Withered Heath, breeding and they were sometimes troubled the Men who lived relatively close.
There are no specific dragons named, no battles mentioned between them and the free peoples and, though not specifically mentioned, Sauron apparently never tried to recruit any.
the histories of LOTR and the Silmarillion were chronicled by the elves, it's why most of the events centre around them. In the second age the elves didn't really encounter dragons so you do not hear about it, they likely still existed and potentially were killed by and fought with dwarves.
you know that scatha was killed by eorl the young in the third age and probably was terrorizing that part of the north for many lifetimes of men going back into the 2nd age.
Agreed. There is a reason why Sauron, despite being the ultimate adversary in The 3rd Age went completely unseen in the story and whom's actions and actions and thoughts are revealed to the reader via reference by other characters. The 3rd age was the transition period from the ancient past to the modern era.
Brilliant video!
I was wondering what is the background music playing during the main part ?
Scatha was the other dragon who made an appearance during the Third Age
The Rohirrim took care of Scatha the wyrm.
Seemed like there were only "Cold Drakes" remaining. Dragons unable to breathe fire. These were smaller and they probably feared the Dwarves of the Iron Hills and Erebor.
Off topic, but is uroki blood acidic? When one got stabbed with an arrow, the arrow started hissing.
Love you guys
They migrated to a planet called Pern and their offspring became smaller and ride-able.
Pern's dragons were genetically engineered, that's specifically pointed out through the series
@@AzraelThanatos Are you always this humorless and pedantic?
@@mordorobsidian he wasn't. He was just showing that your point, joke or not, made no sense.
@ I'm not the one who made that comment.
@mordorobsidian oh yeah...oops.
Ok, rephrase: ''he wasn't. He was just showing that THEIR point, joke or not, made no sense''. Better?
Thank you. Gandalf creating a dragon in fireworks at Bilbos birthday. They were considered not being in these parts for... So many years so yes still in myth and imagination. I love dragons and how Ursular La Quin charcterized them in her Earth Sea series. For me as in spirituality they are forces to clear and transform like alchemists. Just my fantasy. Love Peter's depiction of Smaug though. Dragonslayer film of Disney was pretty good as well. Any thoughts?
E.E. Knight's Age of Fire is a must read for any dragon lover
If you expand out with games, you have Urgost kin to Smaug from the War in the North game which was talked out of picking a side and then left, and in LotRO, there is Draigoch
@@AzraelThanatos so Urgost was just chill like that
Not forgetting one of the major influences on the Third age and later ? In pub names! :)
You missed something big. Sauron already has an airforce. It's the Nazghul riding the Fel Beasts in the sky.
Sauron didn't need the dragons and the Fel beasts were much easier to control.
Very good observation,the Nazgul were actually a bigger threat than dragons.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 i wound not say that. A Dragon probably was way more dangerous than a Nazgul. but the Nazgul were just easy to controll and could not really be killed, only diven away
My two opinions on this matter have often been, first, Tolkien didn't want the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, to be too similar. Sure, they were made at two different times, for different audiences, but once he decided that they were related, Tolkien probably wanted them to seem different, and with Smaug's importance in the Hobbit, if it didn't want to seem like dragons were common enough to be seen in every struggle, they didn't feature in this one. Sort of like the Dwarves; they got their importance in Hobbit, and so barely featured in the LotR, at all.
Second, once the story was decided that Gandalf wanted to to help Thorin, to stop Smaug, because he feared the dragon teaming up with the Dark Lord, it kind of became important that the threat Smaug represented was actually significant, and thus its avoidance was notable. If there were other Smaugs, even lesser, and Sauron could have used them to do much of the same thing, it would have taken away from the need to deal with THE dragon, so we don't get more of them because that might invalidate the defeat of Smaug, all together.
“Come not between the Dragon and his wrath...”
In the zenith of the III Age, Dragon's wer'e to insignifacnt, for Sauron. A creautures of the bygone era. Creation of the even greater evil then The Lord of the Rings. Maybe he was not sure he could take a firm grip on the dragon kind. Or they lived in such remote parts of the Middl-Earht he simply didn't bother. It would be a pretty hilarious situation when one of the drakes would turn against Sauron, just from pure spite agains the fallen Mayar.
I think that Tolkien didn't really find that the dragons needed to be in the LOTR aside from mention, after all they were Morgoth's creations not Sauron's, hence the reason why Sauron never commanded the respect of Durin's Bane. JRRT understood that loyalty has a tier system, and while the balrogs and dragons would see Sauron as chiefest of lieutenants to Morgoth, he lacked the authority Morgoth had.
It became quiet on the dragon front till Daenerys got those eggs...
My guess is, after the magic that influenced them was gone they were wilder...and perhaps not making new dragons
I've always mixed up the names Glaurung, the dragon, and Glamdring, Gandalf's sword. I think it might be due to both kinda sounding like they should be the name of the other, in my head. That is, beyond them both being two syllable words starting with the same three letters, of course, that's probably part of the confusion as well.
@@SpaghettidashIt's probably in a government vault,or the Vatican...
IIRC there were still some in the North?
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Has anyone ever asked why Gandalf was so happy to send Bilbo off to confront a Dragon?
There are several reasons, but the main one is that he believed his enemies would underestimate hobbits. Which was proven to be true many times.
Couldn't the Fell Beasts that the Ringwraiths rode in the air be considered to be a type of dragon? I have to say that my fave rendition of Smaug is still the one from the RankinBass animated hobbit, which bears more resemblance to an Eastern dragon. :D
Personally I wouldn’t say they are, I think they’re their own twisted creature!
Tolkien himself said they were more pteradactyl than dragon like
The dwarves killed a bunch of them before the fellowship even existed.
There is no evidence of this, in fact the only known Dragon Slayers are Men or decedents of Men. Every known encounter of Dragons and Dwarves ended in tragedy for The Dwarves.
@@thecollector6746Even though they had heat resistant armor,men were the known dragonslayers. You're absolutely correct.
@@thecollector6746 we don't how bad the fights between dwarfs and Dragons were. Yes, the dragons drove out the Dwarfs from the North, but we don't know if and how many dragons the Dwarfs have slain in these fights.
I reacon they killed a couple Dragons, at least the smaller ones.
@grimgrauman7650 We sorta do. We have hard evidence with Erebor and there is the common belief that isn't refuted by the dwarves that the 6 of the 7rings granted to each of the 7 Great Dwarven Houses and formed the foundation of their wealth in The 2nd Age were all consumed by Dragons. That IMO says it all
@grimgrauman7650 There isn't any verified or rumored victories of either Dwarves or Elves over any Dragon. The only known and verified victories over any Dragon is via the race of Men or their decendents (Earendil)
They were up north. This is known.
@@mrc3885 i think that like the balrogs, they were to powerfull to submit to any beings lesser in power to then. They were masters of their own will and the inability of evil to remains unified or coherent within itself.
@@luizvalente900 Tolkien said they fled to the north after the fall of Morgoth and generations of Dragons lived out their days beyond the cares of mortal men.
I can never get a straight answer to this. What was gandlafs original plan to kill or defeat smoug??
I think what happened was pretty much his original plan! It was just his plan had a lot of “let’s see how things go” sections. I’m not sure he ever was confident the Dwarves would kill the Dragon, just that bringing along someone burglarish like Bilbo was the best way at finding a weakness to do so :)
@TheBrokenSword that makes sense I like that I was thinking maybe the plan was to get bilbo in to steal the kings stone then leave and use it to unite the dwarfs
Gandalf definitely is looking for a way to take out Smaug, because he fears that Sauron might enlist him. When he meets Thorin in Bree, he plants the idea of the dwarves reclaiming Erebor, hoping that Smaug will be killed in the process.
The dragons made a massive war on the Dwarves in the mid 3rd age. They literally destroyed most of the Dwarves kingdoms, which in turn led to the Lonely Mountain being recolonized and made a new target. The Dragons were very active in the 3rd age, but only in the north and dwarves interacted with them near exclusively. There are still many dragons in the North, even after Sauron's defeat.
Yeah, I wish that was flushed out more.
Almost forgot that. Their deals were mainly with dwarves in the silmarillion. And if i am correct, the book didnt give much details about their wars, except from the steel masks that dwarves wore to fight then, wich must have been a really terryfing battle
@@uriustosh how many dragons are left after LOTR ended?
Only in the Grey Mountains, which would have been Durin's folk only, not "most of the Dwarves kingdoms"...
Dragons are well tidy like. Cymru am byth.
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The dragons migrated to valerya
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Nah Game of Thrones/Song of Ice & Fire Dragons ain't got no shit compare to Tolkien's Dragons mah dude
they're just on a whole another level and different breed compare to any other Dragons in Fantasy literature (although some can compete with Tolkien's Dragons but still)
@@kento2851 I didn't even read GoT but you're a dkhead, so the other is correct.
@@genovayork2468 dickhead? speak for yourself boy for I didn't ask
Also I'm only just stating facts that Game of Thrones Dragons ain't got no shit compare Tolkien Dragons so how does that make me a dickhead? 😒🤷🏻♂️
Also liking your own comments ain't helping you son
It is interesting that, besides the orcs and troll, non of Morgoth's other servants came to fight for Sauron. The Balrog was doing his own thing, and the dragons were chilling in the north. This makes me wonder if Sauron truly would have been able to recruit Smaug as Gandalf feared.
Gandalf was wise, but not perfect. It was a legitimate fear, since Sauron had served Morgoth back when new dragons were still being made. But I think that Smaug was even more deadly than the Nazgul and Sauron feared having such a powerful beast that might betray him (since Smaug was not controlled by the One Ring). It was the same with Durin's Bane. As a Maia in its own right, it was too close to Sauron in power and thus a danger to him. Sauron spent the War of the Ring cowering inside of Barad-dur. He had as much reason to fear Morgoth's other servants as anybody else did.
@@daniels7907, yes, wow! That didn't occur to me. Thanks
If Smaug was awake and approachable... sure. But everyone knows you don't wake a dragon!! Might add that Sauron marketed himself to Morgoth worshippers by claiming he was one and the same. So add humans to the list... none of Morgoth's "creations" though.
Even if a Sauron-Smaug alliance was not likely, the potential was terrible enough that Gandalf was wise to deal with it ahead of time
@ - Well, the Orcs were Morgoth's as well. But not really any more formidable than Men except because of their numbers. I imagine that elite servants like Balrogs and dragons would be more likely to disregard Sauron because he was nowhere near the power Morgoth had wielded at his peak. So other powerful beings would question why they ought to serve Sauron.
My guesses in these matters go back to the fact that Morgoth lacked the power to truly create new life. He could only shape what already existed. Thus it took time to breed his monsters. But also, I suspect that his monsters could not breed without a powerful Dark Lord to enable then to do so. Sauron may not have been powerful enough to support draconic procreation, hence their dwindling numbers. Apparently Orcs also became rare, and eventually extinct, during the Fourth Age without Sauron to enable them to procreate.
That's what I always thought/assumed. I also think that there were some secrets Morgoth kept to himself. Being the evil guy he was, he may have had trust issues.
can't be. Smaug and many of the others were born long after Morgoth's fall. He was 'young' when he took Erebor less than 200 years before.
@ - Exactly the point. It proves that Sauron lacked any kind of power that would allow him to control dragons. Morgoth could compel the dragons to obey him. Sauron could not. Hence he didn't try to make Smaug serve him because a big, fire-breathing dragon could wipe out his Nazgul (who were vulnerable to fire) and then move onto easier targets like Orcs and Easterlings, finally leaving Sauron trapped in his own tower with a dragon demanding all his treasures.
People love to point out that Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant. What they miss is that Sauron did *not* command the Balrogs or the dragons because of his own personal power, but because Morgoth delegated authority to him. With Morgoth gone, Sauron had no authority nor power to command these other servants of Morgoth who were so close to him in power.
We don't know how many dragons were left by the War of the Ring, but they might just be barely sustained by remnant power from Morgoth (who poured his power into Arda). They certainly weren't numerous or else they would have been spread out over more of Middle-earth.
@@misterbrady100😂
Sauron must not have been able to control them because even one half the size of smaug could have taken out a hole army and there for once less army to defend the free peoples! Its like war is a street fight u do whatever u need u poke stab bite whatever to get the victory!
They were chllin'.
We saw no dragons, one Balrog and one Great Spider (Shelob) only in LOTR. They great and epic past was passing away, and the age of man was rising. Typical thematic element, used to great effect by Tolkien.
Definitely so! But dragons are still very cool creatures 😁
I have a question, do dragons have no way to reproduce to grow their dwindling numbers? I’m just wondering and always think about it.
No beings served Morgoth out of loyalty, it was always fear or manipulation.
This is a big theme when it comes to evil in Tolkien's works, evil has no real friends or allies, only tools or servants who has been subjected in one way or another.
I would argue that the balrogs had loyalty to Morgoth when he was threatened by Ungoliant
When it comes to the Balrogs,I disagree. They were the Maiar who joined Morgoth of their own free will.
Balrogs and other Maia, like Sauron, contradict this view.
@@brianthomassen2209 Sauron was in on it because of his obsession with perfect order and the 7 Balrogs were lesser maiar whom he dominated.
Were the fellbeasts the wraiths flew upon kin to dragons?
But but but there was a dragon in The Lord Of The Rings ;-)
I think the history of dragons in Middle Earth play on how people look at the past. We see great and /or terrible figures like Alexander the Great, Plato, Shakespeare, Isaac Newton and wonder where is the equivalent today? They're here but it will be for future generations to raise them up to where they belong.
Bit fan-ficcy but it would've been cool if Saruman won over one of the lesser dragons to defend Isengard, wizards and dragons go hand in hand.
Did Morgoth create dragons from nothing or were they a bastardization of some other life form?
Diminished and fading in some corners of the far north. They do not even seem to be at the withered heath any more.
The bigger question; wherer were the dragon's during the second age?
At least to my knowlege there are no stories from that time involving dragons, unlike the first and third age..
Are fell beasts dragons?
I wouldn’t so say, no :)
Tolkien left them out of LOTR because he didn't want the story to drag-on
What were dragons a corruption of? For example, orcs are corrupted elves, trolls are corrupted ents. My first thought was eagles, but the early dragons couldn't fly.
Wurms like the ones you see in Lord of the Rings Online
My understanding is from what I have read Trolls are a COPY of Ents made from stones and the Earth!!! 🤔
@@TheCrazyCanuck420 Maiar? That would explain the mental powers.
Morgoth could have taken inspiration from The Nameless Things
Have you ever read the Wings of Fire books?
The Hobbit was not originally part of the lore of Tolkien’s Secondary World. It was simply a children’s tale that shared some elements of his early Silmarillion. So, Smaug was not a dragon of Morgoth, just simply a dragon. When he later wrote The Lord of The Rings, The Hobbit became inextricably linked to the lore of Arda. The last remaining dragons that Morgoth created were relatively weak and only lived in the far north, had no allegiance to Sauron and therefore took no part in his wars against men, elves and dwarves. Does that explain it clearly enough?
No, not really I couldn't understand much other than your fart sniffing smugness.
Where did they come from?
Where did they go?
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Faramir boasted to Pippen of a misspent youth hunting dragons....?
Tœrin Tœrambah? Really?
Can't take that serious
With the power of galadriel and the wizards I don't understand why they let the species of dragons survive! Galadriel could have killed Smaug in one shot. Gandalf and galadriel that have made fast work of that stupid dragon especially if you add Saroman the White. In reality the dwarves should have had a very easy time keeping him out of Erabor! They could have lined the entrance with wind lances and iron spikes dropped or catapulted from the ceiling downwards. That was a fortress city and it was entirely the fault of thorin's and his father and his grandfather that all of his people died. They could have made that place absolutely impenetrable with all the money and skilled personnel they had.
Practicing medicine.
Fire and shadow? Your not confusing that with balrogs? Not much shadow about dragons.
they may do what a vala told them, but they certainly wern't listening to a mayer
st George killed one with a spear in hand to hand, shows how normal they got at the very end
i would hate to watch any movie on Morgoth, the Valar or Maiar. Or a series on the White council. Hopefully we get another series of Dwarves yelling about gold...
Replay the video and every time the word dragon is used, replace it with cat.
So they could only say Imagine Dragons
dead lmao
Video 343
Think if dragons reproduces asexually then would Smaug laid some eggs?
Way too many adds for such a short video made me turn it off
Dead
Hopefully sleeping
😴
They dead
You're Welsh?
*unsub*
Bye the way fellas, saw the animation movie of Rohan yesterday, gave it one star, rubbish, there were 3 actions that were copied of LOTR and The Hobbit, the only deceit thing was Mirando Otto’s narration. Hera won the battle but didn’t become Queen, WTF 🤷♀️ Don’t do this sort of thing again, disrespectful to Tolkien’s lore. 😡 it’s embarrassing FFS. Just my opinion fellas👍