Destiny 2 Lore - We now know what The Final Shape is. It means nothing good for us…
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2023
- To get 5% off great gaming PCs, Check out Apex Gaming PCs here: apexpartner.app/redirect/-My-... Destiny 2’s lore and story from the latest cutscene in the Season of the Deep tells us about the nature of the Final Shape. The nature of this elusive pursuit of the Witness is grounded in perfection, imposing order over chaos and the utter destruction of the universe as we know it.
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I like how we've learned that The Witness is essentially just an entire race's collective existential crisis.
It's so damn strange that they panicked at the idea that life isn't so ordered and that bad shit will simply just happen lol
@@deangeloellis729honestly many panick at this idea
@@MikeyBizzle not enough to wipe out the universe to avoid "bad shit" XD
@@FunniesRS lol true but in ways that can limit choices not immediately or inherently bad always but the consequences can be deleterious
@@FunniesRS Some people probably would, if they had the power and... Mental issues, I guess
A funny thing with the origin of the Witness is that I feel it explains why the Witness had disciples with their own ideas and agendas.
The Witness is an entity that understands the need for a purpose, so by giving them a purpose The Witness is giving them something the Gardener never gave The Winess' race. As well as this. It also doesn't matter what the disciples do, since this is just a temporary universe to the Witness
Holy crap. That does make sense. That is kinda funny.
My only thing with that is that it could also be seen as sort of hypocritical, as part of the issue they took with the traveler was that it wouldn't give them answers. Just as the Witness didn't do for their disciples... not that it seemed to faze them nearly as much lol.
The hilarious part is that humanity, Guardians and other races found purpose without the intervention of the Traveler or The Witness, meaning that existence has a purpose itself shown during the game, Bungie has given us this glimpses during our missions or even when the Traveler left the earth, how? Our purpose is to be in unity together and fight against any evil presence, if you saw the recent final Shape video from Bungie is Ikora telling Cayde that we found a great purpose by being united with the Cabal and Fallen against any adversary, when the Traveler left the earth Ikora also said that we have each other and we continue to walk on during our life with this, I know is kinda corny, but that is the message at plain sight, we have purpose without any interference of any Paracausal activity, but the Witness due to greedy purposes did not saw that, therefore Witness objective is selfish and disregard any form of life who does not agree with those terms, the Final Shape is just a byproduct of greediness and frustration, not strength in unity.
And check every single dialogue from our new alliances on the game, even Mitraks understood this with a chat with Amanda, that the purpose is not "the great machine in the sky", but the allies we forge during our adventure, this has been pointed also by Caiatl and even fishy characters like the Drifter, they understood that the main objective is helping each other and stay together, the message has been there AAAAALLL THE TIME.
@@Popexifyour true destiny was the friends we made along the way
Nothing is perfect.
Savathun told us a year ago; “The Witness seeks the final shape, and the final shape is nothing.”
This is the most logical answer here
Yeah was gonna mention this. So Savathun is the only one who's recognised that the Witness's final shape is simply nothing, as nothing is as perfect as anything can get? It's the perfect absence of anything.
It is interesting that Savathun is the discipline that turned away from the Witness and towards the light.
Wise words from best bug.
Looking back on Osiris’ discovery of the endgoal of the Pyramids in the Infinite forest it makes sense since he found nothing in the end, annihilation of the universe.
I wonder if the reason that The Witness never truly describes the Final Shape to its disciples is because it knows that its disciples, or at least many of them, are not intended to be a part of it. The Disciples wouldn't want to fight for a shape they wouldn't be a part of, if they knew they were fighting for their own annihilation. By allowing each disciple to hold their own illusion of the Final Shape, each imagines a shape which they are a part of, thus ensuring their loyalty.
Hit the nail on the head
Calus would have been ride and die if he got to party.
@ringomandingo1015 "Why should I fight for you, Witness?"
"Uh...free booze?"
"I'm in."
I personally believe that this is the correct interpretation.
This was shown to be true in at least Calus's case. If I'm not mistaken, the Witness promised Calus that he "would be last", which, in my mind, means that Calus would literally be the Final Shape. We all know that didn't happen. Calus was left to rot on Neptune. So it's safe to say that it lied to Calus.
Also, there's the fact that it lied to the Hive to prevent the Traveler from blessing them.
It seems to me that the Witness's strategy is to entice people with their darkest desires (pun sort of intended), making grand promises that it never intends to keep. And we thought Drifter was a conman.
Check the Lore from the Raid Root of Nightmares, there an unknown disciple acknowledge that they don't know what the Final Shape is but the bow to the witness as a symbol of trust by being used as a weapon for finality, not even Rhulk knows that, he only follows this vague concept without making questions.
It's kinda sick to follow an objective knowing the result or maybe an speculation, meaning that they are blinded and only serve their current satisfaction not the results of their efforts.
I can’t believe I’ve been playing this game since the alpha just to come to find that the Traveler’s main adversary is an entire population of people that couldn’t deal with a lack of control and all combined to form a space Karen.
Felt. I started in Arrivals with the Unveiling lore, and am pretty disheartened because now it’s just lies. We don’t have any clue what the beginning of the destiny universe was like anymore. The Vex may not be from another universe, the Gardener and Winnower are just stand-ins for the Traveler and the Witness - and untruthful ones at that.
Hey Byf, you didnt get to mention Nezarec or even Calus’ perspective of the Final Shape: that being Nezarec wanting to fold himself into the fabric of existence itself like a parasite to be fed upon it forever and Calus’ desire to be the very last thing to exist before the current reality’s end.
but that's just a personal agenda
He's already gone over those within one of of the last videos he did on the Root of Nightmares lore.
It's definitely worth the watch, but it's worth noting to use that voice to recommend those lore books to others. For anyone that wants to read them!
(Read the raid lore book, btw, it's got amazing things including the unnamed Disciple.)
He doesn’t need to mention them, he’s just giving examples
He’s gone over both of their intentions a number of times already
The Final Shape is just bans for everyone in game
You just get IP banned from the servers when you finish the last mission.
Absolute
Finality
@@goosemanVEVOthe witness wants to be the only one to be signed up
@@goosemanVEVO before that we are treated to a cut scene that mirrors that one from season of the dawn where everyone is speaking at our funeral
the final shape is grass
"The thing about perfection is that it's unknowable. It's impossible, but it's also right in front of us all the time" -Kevin Flynn, 2011
W Tron Legacy reference
God that movie is such a sleeper hit
"But you wouldn't know that, because I didn't, when I created you!"
That movie is so much better than people think
Daft Punk intensifies
as i was reading this i was getting goosebumps and started HEaring him in my HEad hahahaha THE FINAL FRONTIER
a theory i have is that the Traveler never realized how dangerous its power could be, which gave the Witness the impression that it was destructive. So when the Witness started chasing down the Traveler, the Traveler was not only blessing tons of civilizations in hopes that they could stand against the Witness, but it was also trying to prove itself that it’s not at all destructive. “Hey look, I blessed this species! Look at how they’re thriving! Please stop chasing me!” Like the Traveler is a naive being and only now realized how destructive its power could be
Good idea. It’s more than likely the traveler was 1. Just being benevolent like it’s nature is to be and 2. Also trying to replicate a species they could rival in power the witness and protect it and be the champion of “light” and not a disciple of “darkness” like the witness’s species became.
The traveler left the witness race because they wanted to control the universe by uniting the veil and traveler. If it realized that pretty sure traveler is well aware. But, whatever comes from each civilization is by their own freedom of choice. The traveler only gives and the only time traveler gets violent was against a few things. Ghaul, first collapse banished the darkness to outside milky way, blinded rhulk through a ghost because he wanted to take the light by collecting ghosts ( traveler also spoke through this ghost towards Rhulk which gives more proof it sees everything ) and the lightfall intro cutscene where it tore a hole through a pyramid.
I actually have a theory about this and what exactly the traveler might be. Given its visual style and what was revealed in the cutscene it’s likely a sentient artifact left behind by, and there really is no better word for this, God. As such it is essentially on a single minded mission to best emulate its creator, however being a mere machine and an ancient one possibly subject to entropy (but with paracausality nothing is certain) it doesn’t quite understand the ramifications of just giving all the things to everyone. The darkness artifact, the Veil, being another aspect and artifact of God might understand exactly these ramifications being that it’s not subject to normal laws of physical reality. The Witness, upon seeing this flaw, mistook it as the Veil making prophecies of impending and unavoidable doom and thus thought it was its mission to correct the mistake that is existence.
@@MICROKNIGHT3000Traveler also granted us a vision in D2 vanilla so it does speak to its subjects but it’s very selective and careful with what it communicates.
I definitely agree with that, My favorite lore page is "The Wager" which pretty much says as much. The Traveler is making a wager with The Witness (or whoever the narrator of The Wager is) that if you give people absolute power and absolute freedom they will choose to be good and only use weapons as a means of self defense.
As a long time Destiny player...it feels weird but kind of exciting for the game's main villain to be the Anti-Spirals shooting for an SMT law ending
strange to see a gurren lagann comparison here but it makes sense .
Truu
Gurren Lagann and Smt on a Destiny lore video
Count me in
Great reference 👌
Said it once and il say it before. Modern villains are only now catching up with Gurren Lagann. Philisophically its gonna be interesting to see the narrative response our guardian/the cast will have to the witness in the final showdown.
The final shape will arrive and it will undoubtedly be Taniks in his final form.
Taniks, Error Code Fallen
Riding an Ahamkara, dualwielding D1 Phalanx shields on the lower arms and Telestos on the upper.
Nah, Kelgoroth is the final shape
@@ThatSpecificIndividual that would be a sight
Lol
Shaniks with built in Thresher cannons and weilding a Scorn Crossbow.
i am confused why everyone is so surprised by savathun being involved in this ? there's a whole bunch of walls in her throne world that have the same pink purple colour scheme as the portal in the traveller and she used to be a high ranking servant of the witness . like why was no one already looking into that before is my question
Been replaying the Witch Queen campaign and it’s so obvious…also such a good campaign.
Its because she's literally the queen of deception
@@Pxseidxnn while that is true can we really judge only her by her past life ? why is she being singeled out as the one lightbeare who has to pay for her past ?
@@emlynperson3976 I don't think it's her past being judged so much as her present being judged. Crow was treated pretty harshly because of his past as Uldren but we came around to him when he showed that he didn't want to be like Uldren anymore. Savathun, however, made it so that she would remember who she is and chose to keep being her old, manipulative, backstabbing self.
she has deceived us and the witness aswell as hiding the veil on neomuna/ neptune with out being sussed. Also said a good deceiver can mix truths anongst the lies so you cant tell which is which. Ahsa also said that about her "She hides truth amongst deception"
I often think to Toland's early descriptions of the sword logic and wonder if the 'war' between molecules and 'primordial broth' has actually concluded.
It is symbolically done that the Last City was under the protection of the Traveler, and the other last city, Neomuna, was under the protection of the veil.
The witness lacked purpose in the beginning and saw that as bad. So it found its purpose in a desire to end the thing that gave it a purpose, chaos. Ironic.
Ironic? Or just convoluted bad writing?
@@PANDEAD2 Feels like good writing to me. "The universe makes us all victim and perpetrator of it's infinite cruelty" the witness sometimes talk as if aware of some sort of irony in the way their universe is currently.
@@PANDEAD2Another whiner, begone please
I personally don’t think it’s ironic really. The darkness powers are always here, only to be helped along by other entities; Witness helping with stasis, and the veil helping with strand. And at the end of the day, ending everything would still eliminate the need for a purpose
It’s been giving me major “Heaven” vibes from DIO in stone ocean, which is a really cool concept and it’s awesome to see that idea kinda explored in another universe.
We defeat the Witness only to realise it was Dio all along 😂
You thought it was the witness, but it was I, DIO!
I've seen Gurren-Lagann and FF14 references here, and now we see a Jojo reference. Very nice.
I'm just gonna call the "Predeccessors to the Witness" The Veiled. Because that's what these statues actually represent.
I used to see the Light as life/creation and the Darkness as Death/Destruction but lately i think they more accurately represent chaos and harmony. The light can create and destroy but does it in a random, unpredictable and chaotic way as you can see by creatures closer to the light as humanity, cabal and eliksni also by the 'trees' of the Traveler. The darkness represents unity, simplicity and harmony but we are used to see it in a bad way. Species closer to the darkness such us the Hive and Vex clearly represent this concept, either by consumption or asimilation both achieve for transforming everything into hive or vex, the sword logic is simple and so is the Hive's chain of command. The Vex are even a more clear example of unity and harmony, transforming everything into Vex. Also the pyramid from the witness represents simple geometry in contrast with the traveler. The Light makes you forget and forces you to create a new life in chaos, the darkness allows you to remember and structure things around you. Both can be used to create and destroy but in opposite ways. The Witness can only see the suffering that chaos has, but is incapable of understanding that life being chaotic can also be wonderful in other ways. Because they cannot comprehend life as being chaotic, they want to erase everything even if it means complete destruction. After all, nothingness can also be understood as harmony.
I think it's more like Light is the raw elements of the universe, primal and untamed, with no purpose besides the one those who wield/ are made of grant them. Darkness is the mental, the more abstract, basically thought. Hence why raw darkness has always been about manifesting memories, psychic powers. They are just two sides of what makes up the universe.
This might be why the Traveler always wipes lightbearers' memories, it simply can't restore them since those can only be given by the Darkness. And why the Darkness powers have always been more "vague" in nature than Light, which is just sheer energy and the handling of the elements, Darkness has always been about the lack of energy (Stasis being about control and lack of energy, an absolute zero), resonance and control (Memories and Strand being about manipulating the threads that make up reality)
Well said! This core conflict between order and chaos has always been reflected all the way down to the shapes of the traveler and the pyramid ships. The pyramid is the simplest 3D shape that you can make, with the fewest sides, whereas sphere of the traveler has essentially infinite sides!
the kicker is, the witness is missing that light and darkness are just things the Destiny universe does, each a vital piece of the puzzle of paracausal reality. I think we guardians are starting to figure out that we (and galactic life in general) are at our strongest when we wield both in concert.
Maybe another concept to add to these definitions is the hive's descriptions? 'Sword logic' represents simplicity through the reduction of everything into perfection like sharpening a blade. 'Bomb logic' represents chaos and complexity through, something, I haven't read about sword and bomb logic in a while.
My initial thought when I saw that Witness origin cutscene was that the Witness was not actually the bad guy, because it’s not seeking to destroy the Traveler, it’s just seeking the combination of light and dark to bring about perfection (and maybe peace?) in the universe.
But now, knowing that the Final Shape would wipe out all life in the universe, and considering all the suffering the Witness has wrought, they may be even more evil than I originally thought.
@@McSpicyYT That's certainly true too. I guess I just can't help but think from purely our perspective 😆
This reminds me of the idea Savathun was trying to escape the universe upward into our universe, it's almost like The Witness wants to escape a universe downward but he wants to wipe out any chance something could harm it from the middle universe
I find it similar to a kind of Ur facism, the witness seeks to take control of a universe that does not belong to him, and takes the most drastic means possible to achieve its goals, as well as lying to his underlings to get their loyalty, before they see the power they helped create then be used against them as well.
The witness’s goal is the original philosophy of authoritarian ideologies, both fascism and communism taken to their extremes. The pursuit of ultimate perfection requires ultimate control, and any suffering and evil is justified if it leads to utopia. Of course it never leads there. Would almost be worth it to let the witness win and pass into its new perfect universe, only to see that perfection is impossible and watch it go mad
I really liked how you basically defined Stasis is as an "element of" sort of thing. It really had me thinking for a solid half hour.
From a basic understanding, each Light element has a Dark element counterpart. For example, Solar seems to be opposite of Stasis on a more simpler stance, and Void being the opposite of Strand.
If Stasis is the element of control, what would solar be? Well, from an understanding of Solar's properties, it does mending and scorching or just healing and burning. Solar seems to be the element of regeneration. I say this because controlling, on a more figurative stance, makes healing processes more volatile. That brings me to my thought of controlling being the opposite of regenerating.
Strand on a basic point, leans more into a metaphysical part; in relation to the mind, and it makes sense. A cosmic web holding all of life and death together. But Strand is in relation of the connection, the more conscience of everything. So, Strand is the element of conscience. And so, since Void is its opposite, what is it the element of? The element of vacancy. Void suppresses, weakens, devours, etc., and so, it eventually vacates what was once there. But, Void then adds that vacancy to somewhere different. You. Over-shields, invisibility, etc. Now why are they opposites? On a more figurative stance, the inner-thought described with conscience is filling up that nothingness in vacancy.
Ok, well, what is Arc then? Arc is obvious: the element of motion. Arc, for one, amplifies you, but also has jolting capabilities. It all on simple terms is just motion. Well, since all the other subclasses have opposites, what is opposite the element of motion? Stagnancy--the element of stagnant.
Solar is the element of regeneration. Stasis is the element of control.
Void is the element of vacancy. Strand is the element of conscience.
Arc is the element of motion. Whatever the final Darkness power there is (if we even get one), is the element of stagnant.
(Edit: I would also like to add that, in my opinion, I think this is the best understanding of the Light and Dark on simplest terms. The Light is the idea and reality and is the power of chaos. The Darkness, however, is the idea of possibility and is the power of perfection. I think their ideas are how they are because of Osiris' physical and metaphysical analogy: the Light is what is in the physical body, while the Dark is the idea of the metaphysical body or just the mind. And well, their powers because of what this video is about. We learned that the Darkness shows what perfection and flawlessness can be, and its safe to assume that the Light is the power of chaos because well... we learned that from the cutscene.
"Unfettered chaos" and "Eternal and perfected." The Light and Dark.)
Maybe a Debuff focused Element?
Like enemies deal less damage, move slower, react less.
Since the leaked Redish colour, im betting on a Vampyric-esque vibe to its powers, draining life, light, stamina.
One thing I'm thinking about while listening here, is since the witness got to sol, he has literally paid no mind to us or anyone related to our side of the alliance. His focus is unbroken entering the portal, he was fixed on the travel, then the veil and took control of our ghost, spoke through it, like it was a part of him, and literally paid no mind to anything but his goal while doing it, when he killed the ghost and sliced the guardians ship to pieces he did it without malice, or even thought, tanked a direct blast of light from the traveler, locked in gaze at it the whole time, nothing else has been even remotely concerning to him and that's kind of scary, he theoretical could just slice the earth in half before jumping in the portal. The moment we catch up, and he turns around, damn that better be a good moment in the game.
Preach 🙌🏼
I love how since it got to sol The Witness didn't pay us any attention because it's known since shadowkeep that it can take control our Ghost, so all it had to do was send Callus to the veil to do all the groundwork for it and then once we close enough it snags the ghost
I think also the Witness just doesn't care anymore. It has to be right, and there's no changing it's hive mind. Even if the coalition of humanity, Eliksni, Cabal, and Guardians is a refutation of its argument, it won't acknowledge that fact.
It got angry at Calus and needed to scare him to put him back in line. It's not like Calus is some kind of god nor a threat to the Witness, yet the Witness had to intervene. It's not as all powerful as it seems
@@MRVNKLor the fact that calus was getting on his nerves so he yelled at him? Causing serious fear into calus, the most ego filled character in the series? I think he’s pretty damn powerful if he can easily scare him.
"Safe from pain, and truth, and choice; and other poison devils. See they don't care about you, not like I do." Pet by a perfect circle. Really reminded me of this.
Choices always were a problem for you. What you need is someone strong to guide you.
I think I see where the Ahamkara fit into this. They feed off the difference between what is real and what you wish for. They essentially embody the base concept of the final shape, and act as an introduction to it for others. I think it likely that the witness taught them to use the darkness in that fashion
Final shape = error code: weasel
For the Final Shape and what we know now. Is weirdly similar to how to Awoken were created. As Mara, though then known as Alice, shaped them. The collapse had the Traveller and the Veil involved as well. So possibly the Final Shape already exists as the Awoken who are both Light and Darkness. Inside the Distributary there was also no real suffering either.
At the very least, a form of the Final Shape could have existed, but Mara chose to create the Distributary instead.
The Final Shape is Fenchurch, that's why Eververse is going wild lately.
I value freedom over destiny. I value individuality, uncertainty of life, flaws etc. A place with no suffering nor mistakes is a place with no growth, and a place that doesn’t know growth holds no life. See in a world where things can be so very hard the nice things hold more value. The greatest characters and fullest lifes were carved out of pain and struggle. Living is a flawed existence, and that’s the beauty of it, that’s what gives it value. Life is a dance, a push and a pull, not a statue, a statue just is but will never be alive.
@@McSpicyYT Given that value can only be determined by a conscious existence i don’t see how you can take the perspective of anything other than a conscious existence. You are arguing for something that doesn’t exist against something that does. Something that isn’t a conscience existence can’t have value’s so saying that it would value non existence doesn’t make sense.
“There is no perfection only life” ― Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being
So the Final Shape is essentially what Thanos was gonna do if he won in Avengers Endgame. A new universe built the way it wants from the Atom up. Also isn't The Witness a hypocrite? It has both personally and through its disicples and agents caused way more suffering than any hypothetical suffering the the Traveller and its Light might have caused through these so called disasters.
As well just like what Ikora said in the Witch Queen campaigner, the Witness decieved/lied to the Krill/Proto-Hive that the Traveller will bring a God-Wave on the planet of Fundament but was actually was going to bless the Krill/Proto-Hive with the Light. As well that the Witness also destroyed the Eliskni's homeworld of Riis which that alone is a disaster. The Witness' species literally bit the hand that fed them because boiling it down, grew paranoid about a hypothetical potential.
Yeah, that's the thing. The Light "could" have caused cataclysmic disasters for countless civilizations at random, but the Witness actually doing it is justified, in its "heads"(?), by it being for a greater purpose.
And if we're actually going to be honest, looking at everything the Traveler actually has done versus what other entities actually have done, the distinction is obvious. The Traveler has never caused a Collapse, anywhere. It may have left and the civilization eventually devolved into a regime like with Rhulk's world, or the Witness and it's forces chased away the Traveler and devastated the civilization like the Eliksni's or ours, but it itself never caused disaster. It's only ever helped out the best it could.
It’s the concept of a means to a final end. So long as there is going to be an end to the suffering, it will inflict as much suffering as necessary to ensure it will be a forgone conclusion.
Well if the witness wins all that suffering is completely irrelevant because the ones it happens to are dead kind of the whole no consequences thing
Though you did bring up a valid point
Always has been, they're the very chaos they speak of that they label the traveler with. It does not value life, its vision of perfection is for all things of life to cease, choices, will, growth, differences. The witness does what it wants under the brainwashing word and justification of removing 'suffering'. And that can sway alot of people. Always remember the witness is also a creature with opinions. What one word mean for you does not means it is the same meaning for the witness. A deceiver.
The idea of an eternal perfect reality w/o chaos & suffering is definitely tantalizing, especially to those who've experienced said suffering, also to those who haven't
Byf vid = good day, let's gooo
Interesting that the witness relies on total obedience and control without question in its disciples, so when Calus dared to step out of line it completely lost its shit.
What I’m curious about is how different is our timeline compared to others Elsie has seen? I hope we get more lore regarding her and her past attempts
The thing that always sticks with me is when the Witness was first introduced and said "Enough. Enough death... enough life." This gives me the impression that the Final Shape is some kind of horrible cosmic limbo between life and death. Perhaps it is a universe that is stripped of entropy, with the consciousness of every living being fused into a single, unthinking mind; a state of being where you cannot move, cannot think, cannot feel, only vaguely aware of your own existence for all of eternity.
Or, the Final Shape is literally just the Witness using the combined power of the Traveler and the Veil to "take" the Universe.
The final shape is nothingness, the final shape of the universe, what is the final shape of all things if not nothingness, the witness sees life as chaos and "death"(nothingness) as order
This man is the only way I consume Destiny anymore and I don't even play 2 anymore
Me too. I played it until I didn't want to anymore (when sunsetting came along) and now I just follow the lore via byf. It is very interesting
yeah. The lore is the only enjoyable part for the game. The rest is just playtime increasing simulator with nothing substantive and a lack of creativity behind it.
@@fireblow6842 same here exactly.
lore vids only gang 🤘
The only problem with that, is he cherry picks his subjects and shit is rarely in order. You aren't as informed on the lore as you think you are.. The game has drastically changed since sunset was put in. Also sunset for weapons and armor at least is almost completely abolished. They have rereleased most of the lego fravorites with the new systems on them, like that was the issues.
It wasn't about taking away from you, it was about how guns and armor applied to your stats changed so drastically using that old shit was beyond pointless because then didn't even have half the perks and stats of the new shit, you have like 5 extra stat slots compared to the old shit, and it was easier to just removed the option then keeping it all and then people complaing becuase there weapons suck dick. But also that has been mostly rectified.. Cause if the last time you played was when the first sunset happen. This is a completely different game from those times.
Consider trying it out on a free-view weekend. Lightfall was pretty good. People only bitched about it because a new story system was being implemented and that's wasn't exactly explained well enough for people to understand.. But game play, set crafting, variety in activities, has NEVER been better. The lightfall story finally picked up too.. Seriously the arc and void builds right now, you actually can play like the old live action commericals made the game seem. Nades and Melee are infinite repeat. Up to 2/3 of your kills drop orbs, making supers CD less then a min. Strand is pretty bad ass if you use it correctly.. The state of the game is pretty sick, there are people having issues lately, most of those issues are problems on their end and they don't realise it.. The game is in an incredible place. LIke Ive mained Titan for years now, but the arc Warlock is so fire right now Ive been playing in more then my titan. just sayin... Its probably the most fun the game has ever been. it would be a prefect time to come back.
The witness follows the same logic as every theological villain - something like 'life is more bad than good, more suffering then pleasure, more conflict than cooperation, so because it's net bad, it's merciful to just be done with it altogether.' There are many retorts to this theology across religions and mythologies, but my personal favorite is the best line in the worst avengers movie "a thing is not beautiful because it lasts"
What the hell. Are you smokin ,,,,,,this happens. EVERY DAY. In. REAL LIFE we always. Have a. Bad guy some where. To take over the world.
For the League of Legends players, it can be summed up with a Kindred Quote:
"What do all stories have in common, Dear Wolf?"
"THEY END!"
“The Traveler revolution it’s consequences have been disastrous” -the Witness
Dude Ive thought about exactly this countless times it’s crazy. I can’t think of anyone or anything I’ve seen directly posing the idea of deleting life as a whole from the universe but it randomly floats into my thoughts constantly. I think it’s so cool that a franchise i grew up with and is so special to me is pretty much basing its final act on a topic that’s just so interesting to me
For people whove seen evangelion, it feels kinda like human instrumentability but on a universal scale.
Yeah, really similar to the egg of lilith.
Also for those who have played Elden Ring... MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD.
The Witness would absolutely choose the Lord of the Frenzied Flame ending and eradicate all life to end the suffering of those who wish they were never born
I've never understood how anyone could actually desire the Final Shape if they actually deeply thought about it for more than 2 seconds.
What do you mean? Perfection is undesirable?
@AOPrinciple absolutely. If the universe is truly perfect and eternal, it is, by definition, unchanging. Nothing changes, at any level, for all eternity.
Compare this to the experience of, well, experience and living. Things only happen because of a gradient, between heat and cold, between past and future, between order and chaos. Take away the gradients and you have a "perfect" universe, as perfect and dead as an eternal statue with no one and nothing to even experience it anyway.
Plenty of real philosophies might think this is desirable. After all, if you want to reduce or stop suffering, for example, would the Final Shape not achieve that goal?
@@yanipheonu sure, if the price you're willing to pay is the erasure of all things that could have the capacity of experiencing pain or suffering. It's literally the equivalent of some internet "philosopher" seriously arguing that the most effective way to end world hunger is to kill every human being, because no humans = no hunger.
@kyleespinoza7201 There technically wouldn't be the need to experience it if no one existed to desire an experience. The ability to feel good might be only instrumentally valuable insofar life creates a necessity for that instrumental good. Or might there be things that are inherently good and not just mere satiations of desires created by life? Then one might say that life has inherent value in a way and that it is a loss to not have any of it.
hoping that prior to the final shape/end of the light/dark saga we get the "other side" of the conversation of why the traveler does what it does. why did it reject a link with the veil? what was its purpose in uplifting civilizations? what goal did it have in mind? what is its thesis/counter thesis to the unchanging final shape the witness desires?
Like a full year or so ago I had brought up to some friends how I thought it was so interesting looking at the depictions of Light vs Dark in Destiny vs Final Fantasy 14. In FF14, Dark embodies the chaos of mutation, of unfettered and unshackled life, whereas Light embodies the order of crystallization, stasis, but also structure. Though in large part the moral ideas remain the same. You may see where I'm going with this- Destiny, especially cemented in this latest cutscene, looks at the Light as the ability of life to grow, chaotic and free, while Darkness is the side of enforced order, through the elimination of that which threatens it. And of course our first element in that field was literally called Stasis. I find it so interesting that two groups of writers could look at the base ideas of "chaos of life" and "order of stasis" and draw completely different, almost diametrically opposed philosophical implications from that.
Edit: I also find it funny that separate from that, FF14 also featured its own third party force of cosmic nihilism which stands for the elimination of suffering by the elimination of life itself, for life is nothing if not the potential for endless suffering. Elden Ring did something similar with its Frenzied Flame, though its idea is more similar because it aims to destroy everything to return existence to an equal, singular point.
Not to say "it's so obvious how could nobody see it" or "it's just a metaphor, the end", but Jason Jones Bungie games have been extremely consistent on roughly operating on some forms of metaphorical situations intertwined with philosophical concepts and of course mythology and folk lore. Destiny is no exception and very much takes account for what is possible from essentially two faces of the same coin, to put it very simply. If you go back to stuff like Pathways, Minotaur, Marathon etc, it's crazy how much of the DNA spills over into this series whether explicit or not.
@@thealldayspecial "Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.
I know who you are."
I will give the writers real props if they pull the reveal that when the Witness entered the Traveler, it just found that the universe as it is, _is_ the final shape. Because it won last time, then realized how bad an idea that was, so arranged things to be as they are in game to prevent it's 'victory' and establish a perfect paradox. If it wins, it loses, if it loses, it wins.
honestly would be interesting to see how the universe would react to that revelation and what that mean for D3 if that'll be what happens next, or the next D2 expansion
I feel the Witness will end up being like the Dwarf in the Flask from Fullmetal Alchemist. The Dwarf was also seeking perfection, but those who've read the manga and seen the Brotherhood anime know what happen to them. Another thing, if the Witness is going to destroy all life to acomplish their Final Shape, they will end up destroying themselves in the process.
Way to go with that grenade at 3:17 lol 😅
You always have such thoughtful, well written expositions of the lore you silly queef. I wonder if the 3 darkness classes can function as a codex to understanding the full nature of the final shape?
Does anyone else think that their “Matter” game is actually gonna be Destiny after the light and dark saga? If we lose to the witness and he does create a new universe
Matter is either Marathon or a mystery ip. Would be intriguing if you’re right
The final shape is likely reverting the universe back to the moment before the gardener and the winnower made their bet and freezing that moment for eternity
Before Adam and Eve took the apple. Presupposes that event didn’t happen for a reason tho..
Sorta like a chick who’s used all the food (egg white) in the egg, panicking abt the end of its existence; only to find out there’s an entire other world once the egg cracks and it’s birthed. Looks like chaos at one moment, but in the bigger picture it’s leading somewhere, even when you can’t understand why, alone can control it… 🐣
They’ve basically said the Winnower is a lie of the Witness. Unveiling is now a book of propaganda, and not the biased account of a primordial deity
In Witch queen during the parasite mission, didn’t Mara say the Witness gave her a glimpse of the Final Shape? I also remember her saying that it was indeed enticing, or that she felt a sort of happiness.
8:53 Oh Hai, Duranadal, I almost didn't recognize you there.
i think when the guardians finally get their third darkness subclass, we will become the final shape, because from it seems the final shape is just the perfect merging of light and darkness, so naturally aquiring all dark and light powers could possibly do that to us
I thought this for some time too, but I’m not so sure anymore. I think we will get another darkness subclass but the Final Shape, if successful, will be a new reality. I could see us “defeating” the witness by breaking it up into its original people and that becomes the Final Shape.
Guardians wield light and dark separately. We have yet to be able to combine both forces into a cohesive form of power. That's what the final shape is. Light and dark combined to create a universe where everything is still. Nothing dies because nothing is left alive
I feel like the unknown desciple was our guardian, but before we died in the collapse
I don't think the Destiny community is ready to have their character be what is essentially Darth Revan.
Nah cause this makes a lot more sense if you rewatch the final cutscene of Shadowkeep. Particularly when the Witness cloning ourself speaks to us and says “Don’t you recognize us?”
This was our first encounter with the Witness and even then we didn’t necessarily know who the Witness was.
Obviously this is all theory, but a good one. This would make for a beautiful twist at the end of the light/dark saga
That's such a cool idea that they'd never do it.
@@Ethos998 agreed lol
It felt to me that the unknown disciple was Savathun, because of the "o Witness" part, just like Savathun used to say "O Guardian of mine"
8:58 opened a new one in the traveler, great timing
Lightt changes every day...Dark....the absence of light...is always the same. Thanks for the hard work.
The Final Shape is just the end of this Destiny addiction. I’m all for The Witness to win
That's it? The final shape is just an hexagon?
Titan for life
I can't wait to see the mechanics and scenery in the final raid against the witness
The entire time Byf was talking, one thought kept going round and round in my head: Clovis would definitely agree.
Honestly we should wait for the witness to die because surely he doesn't have much time with that vape cloud
Lmfao 😂😂😂😂
But what if it can't die, as said vabe cloud is more or less the souls of the damned???
@@cjopticon2378 well if the vape cloud cannonicaly is made by the souls of the others that vaped ( and are now dammed ) the witness should join them and merge with them when somebody else gets the vape cloud
Either the Witness will win and create D3, or the Guardian will win and create D3.
You don't introduce a reality-warping engine into the narrative and not use it for future marketing.
I don't think Destiny is trying to be Detective Comics. What would it really say about the narrative if it goes, "Witness altering reality is bad, but Guardian altering reality is good"?
Destiny 2 would run rather hard into a narrative problem there. Sure, you could explain it as the way each character wanted to use it is what makes one evil and another good, but the problem would still be there.
I had a moment reading that lore entry regarding the unknown Disciple and how it addresses the Witness as “O Witness”. It very much reminds me of how the Worm Gods in the Books of Sorrow referred to Aurash and her siblings as “O Princes” when tempting them into making the pact.
I think this might be one of the remaining Worms, but which one? It would be kinda crazy if it’s Xol given that he got turned into a Taken gun!
"If you believe your weapon wants to end all existence, then so it will." -Bad Juju description
It makes sense to me that even the witness isn’t certain of how it all shapes out. Because no being could possibly comprehend such an understanding to restart all of existence. I’m sure we’ll here at the end what the witness himself thinks of his goal and thinks of what is to be on the other side.
What if the Traveller IS the witness? Here me out here:
1. I believe it’s been mentioned that the portal into the Traveller may have some time-traveling capabilities, I think Byf mentioned it might be how Cayde got brought back? Also Else Brey was able to time-travel or something of the sort, so it’s not completely unheard of.
2. The Traveller uplifts civilizations, bringing them closer to “perfection” and removing a lot of their suffering by extending their lifespans and such
3. If the witness were to remake the universe, he would probably have to do it like the Traveller is: by acting as a god-like entity and going through it one civilization at a time
4. Perhaps instead of completely destroying the universe and rebuilding it, the Witness would have to settle for going back to the start of the universe to to physics or something
Juuuuuust a thought.
The witness leading each disciple to believe their understanding of the final shape is correct to gain their unquestioning loyalty gives me the sense that there’s gonna be an ahamkara/genie “wish granted but not in the way you thought” moment coming soon for these disciples
Amazing vids man
14:52 What's interesting is that if the Witness succeeds, and thinking about what Stasis represents--control, yes, but also will--then it could essentially will the universe into perfection, into the final shape. It must be nice to have such supreme confidence in one's vision!
Another day, another lore video
I only started seriously in the witch queen but have had the game for a lot longer and this game is crazy and now I’m addicted
There's only two ways the Final Shape can take form:
1) Power with purpose/meaning
2) Nothing exists at all.
The Witness wanted purpose and when the Gardener didn't give it, they saw purpose in preventing chaos and controlling power. But once chaos is prevented and power is controlled, then what? Anything moving forward would have to be a new creation. Creativity is chaotic in its nature. The finished form has purpose but the rough draft is always chaotic. If chaos in all it's forms is prevented then nothing new comes about and eventually, either everything dies off or becomes static. Either way, purpose is lost once again. The re-pursuit of purpose would result in the Witness destroying everything as purposeless since the feeling of purposelessness was the pain it first sought to cure.
Great video, great interpretations
kind of gives layers to the whole "Calus' shadow legion" thing I guess too
Thanks for the video glhf
The scary part is that we don't know what's gonna happen and for alot of us, like myself, we grown up with the same guardian since 2014 and known all these characters for just as long so it feels like these are real stakes to a "world" we've been a part of for so long.
I think the next subclass will be “Harmony”. Strand is the threads that run THROUGH everything. “Harmony” is the waves of energy that FORM everything.
Listening to Byf's philosophical musing about the Final Shape and the concept of perfection, I think there is something that Byf is overlooking: when discussing the Witness' intentions and how creating a so-called "perfect" universe requires the destruction of the old one, it almost sounds like Byf is making the assumption that a new universe, whatever that may be, would in fact be created out of the old one. But what if that isn't the case? Given the general impossibility that is true perfection (we only understand perfection in a theoretical sense, but have no real world examples), it stands to reason that no matter what the Witness creates, it will perpetually be disappointed with its creations and its imperfections since the Witness itself was once a collective of imperfect individuals struggling to answer the fundamental questions of existence (What is the purpose of life? What is its meaning?) and being frustrated by the silence of the Traveler.
Sure, the Taken may represent the closest thing to what the Final Shape may look like, but they largely have been a means to an end by corrupting a once living thing into a mindless servant, and the Disciples themselves are just means to an end. Otherwise, why not simply take the Disciples if that is the Final Shape, or some version of it? Why let them retain their willpower and let them believe alternative versions of what the Final Shape is if they are simply tools to be used and cast aside when they are no longer useful? Who is the Final Shape even for? The Witness certainly doesn't carry itself with any sense of benevolence towards future generations who will benefit from the Final Shape like, say, Thanos, but instead carries itself with just a cold condemnation against life in of itself as a source of meaningless pain and suffering.
To that end, I don't think the Witness is interested in creating anything at all. I think the Witness views creation itself as a curse. And so, to the Witness, true perfection is oblivion. It is pure nothingness. It is an existence devoid of anything, because nothing that can be created would be truly perfect. And so, if nothing can be perfect, nothingness is perfection. That is how the Witness truly defeats the chaos of the Light: by completely snuffing it out until nothing remains. Perhaps not even itself. The purpose of life, the purpose of existence, according to the Witness, is to end.
This notion of oblivion and nothingness also ties into Stasis when viewed through the lens of Absolute Zero, when an object in space reaches such a critically low temperature that all molecular motion ceases in a state of zero entropy, and in which pure substances can ideally form perfect crystalline structures. Stasis also ties into the theory of the universe's eventual heat death when all energy dissipates and the universe returns to a state of nothingness. It's no accident that the Witness' power of choice to bestow upon others, like us Guardians or Eramis and House Salvation, is Stasis since such heat death and oblivion is what the Witness wants, whereas other Darkness related power, such as Strand or Deepsight, we had to learn of from other sources.
And Calus’ vision of the Final Shape is simply to be the last of everything, to be free from suffering in the universe itself so that he may have the last piece of mind to be happy.
With the final shape we actually got a glimpse of the Final Shape since Season of the Dawn where Osiris found the destruction of the universe when he entered the Infinite Forest. This would explain his drive to stopping the Witness in LF.
It's impressive that even though Calus is obviously an insane lout who was only a full-fledged disciple for a matter of days, he got closest to grasping the Witness' vision
@@IAmOnFyreNot bad for a hedonistic space turtle. 😂
The progenitor really took “Life is what you make of it” to a whole new level
There is a really cool link between modern physics and what is being discussed here. Order and disorder, entropy, the use of disorder to create structure that then falls apart due to entropy. I am not an expert here by any measure but it seems to fit.
I always thought the witness saw free will as suffering, thus taking that away, whether through subjugation or annihilation as it’s idea of a merciful act
"The children of Sol cry out for salvation" the first thing we heard the Witness say at end of Witch Queen
When I heard that the light is chaos the first thing that came to mind was thermodynamics, specifically entropy and enthalpy.
Honestly the last subclass should be a mixture between light and dark it’s only fitting for us to achieve this power in perfect harmony at the end
As tantalizing as wiping the slate clean sounds...the universe is full of mysteries and wonder. So much to experience in so little time. And life is the only thing that can experience these wonders. Without life, the universe just exists. Nothing to experience it. A quiet universe till the end.
I find really interesting that the idea of the Final Shape is the same as Frenzied Flame in Elden Ring.
As I can understand, the Final Shape is a stadium in which all the universe is free from the chaos of life, the Light, and is instead Nothing with capital N; when nothing can suffer from experiencing the chaos of life, the everything that is nothingness is perfect.
The Frenzied Flame asks the same question: if life needs being to suffer to keep existing, then wouldn’t the ultimate goal of “ending suffering” mean erasing life from existence? To return to the Primordial Chaos that was forced into existing?
For me, that same Primordial Chaos, the state in which nothing is all and nothing exists, is the Final Shape. If nothing exists, then nothing will suffer.
And even worse is, as you said, it isn’t hard to agree to something like that.
I understand now what the witness constantly said “In the light there is only death” because it has seen what the light can truly do
Maybe this is why when we say cayde and ikora in the teaser for final shape it was just a garden world that looks perfect maybe the final shape is just something visual that fits every person in existence from the smallest life form like a tardegrade to the largest like ahsa and everyone in between kind of like a “heaven” of sorts but at the cost of all life and the cost of your own self governance
Sort of reminds me of the Frenzied Flame ending in Elden ring. Melt it all down into the one even at the cost of the entire world. Obviously more refined than that one, but the concept of a singular perfection of the cosmic soup is somewhat similar
MAY DARKNESS TAKE THE WORLD... I mean CHAOS...
Wait... "Take"... the "Taken"... wtf
i like how the cutscene reveals whats inside those veil statues,
At 3:19 he threw a grenade at the ceiling lol
Great video
I honestly feel like the unknown disciple is Xivu near that last line in the cave lore makes me think that
“Wait, it’s just Eververse?!”
“Always has been.”
TBH just studying the Taken and how the power of Taking works is a perfect glimpse at how total a tyranny is intended by the Witness
I know this video is 6 months old but i have to point how 3:17 made me buckle
“the Upender destroying all differentiation”
Sounds like the Human Instrumentality Project
Order and Chaos are each a separate thing yet reliant on each other, kind of like yin and yan. Just like light and dark. With light it still casts a shadow (darkness) so one needs the other no matter how you look at it.
"I am your Violence and nothing more"
That sounds like something Xivu would say.
You hit the nail on the head. Those who have seen cruelty and suffering are more likely to support The Witness, hell I know I do.
The ultimate end to all suffering. ▼ lets go ▲