WHAT!!! A 29 minute video! There's no way I'm watching all that just to find out about this silly race and Leaf issue!... 29 minutes later... Damn, that was a good video. Subscribed.
@@Demobot1 It appears the leaf has a poor BMS system and no liquid cooling/heating on the battery so it can't manage long road trips. A good car for driving around town though!
Really good race. Just goes to show its not just the one with the biggest battery wins. it’s how you manage the battery and how efficient it is. Enjoyed this one. Keep it up.
Great test of three EVs in some pretty bad winter conditions. It’s very disappointing that the 40 kWh LEAF’s charging tapers down as battery temperature increases. I suspect they do it to prevent degradation, but it really hamper’s the vehicle’s usefulness. Nissan should have learned their lesson from the earlier LEAFs and installed thermal management instead of going with this slow charging bandaid. Keep up the great content! I’d love to see more EV adventures like this with other vehicles... perhaps a summer road trip.
Keep in mind that the Ioniq is able to charge MUCH faster than it does on these DBT chargers. I tested it on the new 175kW Fastned chargers in Holland couple of weeks ago and average charge rate from 20% to 75% was 77kW. It seems to be able to pull 200A up to 75%. A race using chargers like that it would have been no contest.
Thank you. The new Leaf will not be a problem for me. Start from home with a full charge, that should give me 150 odd miles. The first rapid charge will give me say 120 miles and then the second will give me 120 miles. I would not wish to drive more than that in one day.
David Fox, that could be possible in winter, each fast charge will take about 1 hour. In summer you'll get only 1 fast charge since the battery will be much warmer in the beginning and it will cool down a lot slower. The second one will be painfully slow.
Awesome video James, the 40kWh is amazing for all the tech and gadgets. But it'll be good to have another challenge in the summer if Nissan tweaks the 40kWh Leaf.
the leaf didn't have active battery temperature control....so it wouldn't use the rapid charge when the battery temperature is too high or too low. the ioniq has better air dynamic....and it's lighter, weaker engine also more efficiency tire. it's not all good on ioniq tho...but if we're just talking about efficiency, ioniq is better
Great video James, unless you have another volunteer i'd love to be part of a spring or summer test with the 41kWh Zoe (Q90 Quick Charge) included. I might be repeating myself to you, but I did London to Stonehouse (420 miles) the day before you all set off.
What a compelling video and well done to all who took part. This is a classic piece of responsible social media, to the extent that would-be EV owners don’t just assume that a bigger battery means a better car and that the like of Nissan can view it as constructive criticism and do something about it.
we are always doing this journey, if you keep up with us on twitter you'll see when we are next heading off, I'm sure we can get something together :-)
*I don't get how Nissan Leaf 40kw overheats the battery in -5 (freezing cold)* ??? I mean does Nissan Engineers acknowledge the existence of SUMMER ? will the battery melt while charging at 30c on normal summer temperatures ???
The truly crazy thing... is to see the drivers doing without heating, to save energy, freezing cold... whilst beneath them, are batteries, that are too hot. Making use of waste heat, to warm the interior, was something that GM had worked out by 1930!
Quentin Cope surely their should be away to use the heat from the batteries or the electric engine to warm up the car interior , without wasting additional power from the batteries ,I mean when you only have a few miles range , you can't afford to waste it on heating
No, it won't melt, but the user will get only one fast charge up to 80-90% in 45-60 minutes. The rest will be slow, at about 22 kW, half the normal speed.
Richard Petek Following your logic you could leave home with a full battery and drive in summer like you have stolen your leaf 2018 and arrive to your first supercharger with the batteries cold as ice , *is not happening* , even before any charge you can overheat the batteries by simply driving at normal motorway speeds 75 + MPH in Hot weather
Excellent Race! Thank you for having this race under such horrid conditions! Side note, My local sales rep for Hyundai told me in reality the Ioniq battery is actually 31 KW and 28 usable and only advertises the usable aspect of the battery, not sure if this changes anything honestly. Cheers!
What an epic piece of film! Love my memories of the days when driving an EV still was an Adventure! The Ioniq won by a considerable amount, if you account for the faulty chargers. And it appears James had a heater at his disposal in his Ioniq, while the Leafists resorted to blankets in their 🥶🥶 cars.
@@Jamesandkate 4 Years ago really was the turning point, wasn't it? I've had a Tesla before that, because there was no alternative. But the Ioniq made so much more sense on many levels. It really was the first sensible and fully practical EV, and it coincided with CCS charging becoming sufficiently available and reliable. At least here in Switzerland and France, where I'm driving. And I think it still hit the sweet spot like no other car to this day. I just ran out of battery warranty on mine a few days ago @200'000km and I'm not worried. Loved to watch the video, great people having a great time! Thanks m8👍
Don't think I'll be going for a LEAF 40 anytime soon, given this particular issue. I only need to do an Aberdeen/Midlands, Midlands/Aberdeen journey once a year, but I want fast charging on the whole trip.
david coe I was wondering about this. Did the IONIQ driver use the heater? He didn’t look particularly bundled up and he never mentioned being cold. The LEAF drivers were clearly very cold, often with condensation on the windows from the lack of heat.
The question about the heating was answered by James in another question. Yes, the Ioniq had the heater on, the Leaf 30 driver was freezing and the 40 kWh Leaf was out of the ballgame anyway.
Nicely done, the three of you! The Ioniq must have better aerodynamics, less weight and better battery management. Unless James is a more efficient driver? It's a big shame that Nissan have skimped on thermal management, so let's hope that they can either find a workaround or else retro-fit a cooling system. Thanks, James and Kate, for your hospitality last week, and for the opportunity to travel in your Tesla. It's an awesome experience, and the car lives up to its reputation!
I was going to say just that, the 30kWh LEAF actually has the smallest battery of those three cars. Add in the better aerodynamics and general efficiency of the Ioniq you can see why it would have won, had chargers not been an issue. Personally I'm still shying away from CCS cars for now in the UK, still too few chargers as compared to CHAdeMO. I had hoped my next car would be the 40kWh LEAF but after hearing the first rumblings of what's now called #Rapidgate, a couple of weeks ago I instead opted for a 30kWh Kia Soul EV. Should be a decent step up (when it arrives in about August) from my 24kWh LEAF, if not quite the leap that I'd originally hoped for.
You will LOve your Soul, I am getting 75-80 miles from my 27kw driving my 70 mile commute every day down the dual carriageway @56-60 in UK weather. with the active thermal managment I can fill my car from 15% - 94% in 33 mins
The most rapid charges I've done in a day, in my 24kWh LEAF, is 9 (Sussex to Edinburgh). No slow downs (if anything it seemed to get a touch quicker...) There is a regular trip to Cardiff Bay that I do (360 miles return, in a day). I'm going to feel very smug that my Soul EV will do that quicker than the 40kWh LEAF, especially in the summer!
Very well edited, once past the first full battery charge rate and efficiency become important, I think I managed something silly like 6.7 miles to the kWh when I spent an afternoon with an IONIQ last summer.
What a great test. Good job guys! So efficiency and charging speed can be more determinant than battery size. Another lesson learned. Hope Nissan fix the problem with rapid charging soon. I wonder if the 30 kWh Leaf would have performed as good as the Ionic in a sunny summer day as the battery temperature in the Leaf was close to its limit despite low outside temperature.
Hi Neal, so the 30 makes its best even with high temperatures, good to know. But for the future (and the present 40 Leaf) in order to reduce battery degradation Nissan should change battery management system and improve user experience. Besides, improving battery life avoids CO2 emissions that will be released to manufacture a new replacement battery. Also improves cost of ownership.
It's almost a bit weird to see how everyone realizes how good the Ioniq really is, almost two years after it's unveil. Nothing has changed, yet here we are astonished that excellent aerodynamics and somewhat low weight helps long range travel at highway speeds? Could this be consequence of Hyundai not delivering a lot cars, hence it being absolutely drowned by new releases, taking away our attention to what really matters, efficiency. Oh and, thanks for sharing and making this video. The market segment that the Ioniq represents is only contested by the Model 3 so far, which is a bit slim. Would like to see other manufacturers coming onto the small to medium saloon market too. And I think this showcase really enlightens the utility and performance that can be had.
Actually there are a few competitors. BMW i3, Hyundai Kona 40 and 64 and Bolt 60. Ioniq would beat an i3 since it is more efficient. Kona 40 would be a draw. Kona 64 and Bolt would probably beat the Ioniq since they need fewer charging stops, but it would be close. Even when using 100 kW CCS, Kona and Bolt charge faster. A 50 kWh Ioniq would beat them all. This car would be in Tesla Model 3 / Model S 75 territory.
Great video! As someone who’s about to get a new 2018 Leaf it’s good so many people have flagged the rapid charge issues now, it’s probably saved me some potential anguish. From everything I’ve seen I have zero expectations of any “fix”. I don’t see Nissan changing their mind about battery protection and easing up on the charge vs batt temp throttling, and I really can’t see a recall to install any battery temp management hardware. Personally I’m fine with all this as I never plan to take mine more that a hundred miles once in a blue moon. Nevertheless I think we are all a bit disappointed in what otherwise is an excellent update to an already excellent EV. As for the Ionic, it always looked like a brilliant car and this goes further to prove it. So big props to Hyundai, I just prefer the look of the new Leaf, and a test drive made me fall in love with it.
Ok James here’s a quick thought, what if you only rapid charged the 40kw Leaf to 50-60% instead of 80%? Do you think that lessening the extra heat an 80% charge over a 60% charge would help keep the temp down? You’d start with 100% to begin so benefit from the distance advantage.
Awesome video guys! Thanks so much for all the effort of making it! Wow super interesting results and just confirms all the rumours about the 40kWh Leaf not being able to handle more that 1 rapid. So disappointing Nissan would release a car with such a massive short coming. That ioniq is a very impressive machine, hats off to Hyundai! This has confirmed it for me not in go for the 40kWh Leaf and hold on to my trusty 24kWh Leaf until either the 64kWh Hyundai Kona comes out or even the roumoured upgraded ioniq
Would be good to see a 38kWh Ioniq up against a couple of rivals but I guess these Aberdeen endurance runs are history. In our quest to get an EV we find ourselves still hunting. We've resisted the hype of new and decided that we really cannot justify the 250 mile range in a Kona or an eNiro so we're looking at a 38kWh Ioniq. Looks like it does everything that we realistically need with some headroom in range and plenty of space for our camping kit or those trips with an elderly relative taking him to visit family members.
One thing that was obvious (and not mentioned) was James in the Ioniq was not dressed as if he was mountaineering while driving. Presuming he's not some hard man, the Ioniq has to be the 'most useable' EV?
Hmm, I can see the resale values of the 40kwh Leafs going off a cliff. My previous car was a Hyundai Getz which I ran for seven years of trouble-free motoring before getting my 24kwh Leaf. I think the Koreans are showing the way.
I really enjoyed this video. I’ve been pushing the range/temperature limits of my own 2018, last of the 30kw Leaf’s on 400km trips in Ireland so I can relate to the factors you are balancing. It’s like a new sport. A similar challenge in UK ‘summer’ would be interesting. I’m looking forward to some higher mileage trips myself later in the year as I use the car to get me to nationwide events in a Championship I cover.
Hi James, I beleive your video of the 450 mile race has made Nissan sit up and take notice, Bjorn Nyland's 1000km trip also confirmed your honest findings, the ball is with Nissan now, they have a great chance here to make it right and become a serious leader in the EV market, but if they drop the ball ... I really hope they fix this issue and do the right thing for the future of EV travel.
I don't work for Hyundai, and that ioniq, is a compromised design, due to being a hybrid, phev, ev. Every test I've seen the ioniq seems to be amazing apart from grip. What's a pure Hyundai ev design going to be like? I'd say incredible.
We really hope that Nissan solve the range problem with the 40Kwh Leaf. However were really pleased that the Ioniq acquitted itself so well. It just happens that we have the Ioniq Hybrid and that is super efficient too. We can't have a home charger unfortunately.
Great video! And a surprise... I’m going to have to really consider my options when my PCP ends on my current Leaf 24KWh in September. Sounds like I’ll be too early for the Kona, and possibly the 60KWh Leaf too. But the IONIQ might be a sensible option...
as i dont like Ioniq, it showed me the older Leaf is the better choice and actually saves 10tsd euro compared with Leaf 2. Thanks a lot for this epic race
Great eye opener video. Thanks and well done. Two questions if I may. How many charges did the 40kWh Leaf do before the 2 hour wait and how did you find all of those free chargers? Especially Ecotricty. I thought they hadn't been free for 2 years.
Can anybody tell, what kind of problem with the chargers did James in the Ioniq have? It seems that both Leafs didn't have those. No correct RFID chips? Problems with non-functioning chargers? Not used to the car or CCS? How much time did he loose due to those problems? Obviously both Leaf users admitted that the Ioniq EV should have easily won.
Great video though! I hope to see more of this type of challenge in the future with other sets of cars. This is the new Top Gear. Well almost :) Also, it would be nice with an overlay map of where you are when charging along the route.
Hi guys, thanks for doing this video. However, I think you could have summarized this in a much shorter time. We don't necessarily need to see all the driving and stopping stuff. Also, if you kept logs with stats, that would have been good to see (how long each car drove between stops, how long fast charged and at what kW rate, what was battery SOC at before charging then after, what was battery temp at before and after each charge, etc.. I think a breakdown of this for each would be very interesting, you did provide a bit of info for the Leaf 2.0 at one point. Thanks.
Bjorn Nyland actually did a thorough 1000 km 19 hours long test with the Nissan Leaf 2.0 40 kWh and he made 2 videos, a short with recommendations and a long one with all the stats: th-cam.com/video/QycmLQriePU/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/foSYZ7bVhYk/w-d-xo.html Enjoy!
Excellent video let's see wot Nissan comes up with it is worrying buying a car and it doesn't come up to the mark I have a 24kw and 40kw leaf absolutely love driving both but a bit flabbergasted why Nissan didn't see charge gate coming......
Good video. I assume you've seen TeslaBjorn's video. He had a hard time getting the power charged to the car to add up with the dash displays. Concerning.
Excellent job; well done guys. Lets hope Nissan sort out this issue., I should pick-up my 40kWh soon, I'd like it too be the car I thought I was ordering.
Thanks for this video. Nissan said to me that long distance trip concerned 3% of Nissan owners. That is the reason active cooling system is not fit in it...even for next generation of Nissan Leaf...i did cancel my order to Nissan. Sad
A really interesting video. Well done. Is it possible to have more details about timings, routes, costs. Would the rapid charge problems not be exaggerated in the summer when its warmer?
From the Netherlands, thanks for the very interesting video! I’m looking for a hybrid or ev car. Your video’s are important for my choice, Again, thanks!
The Ioniq is still the long range champion. For me who at most do ~200km maximum a day? I still take the Leaf 40 kWh. Still saving money for now - perhaps the 60 kWh in the works?
The Ioniq, compared with most other EV's (e.g. Nissan and Renault) with greater battery capacity appears to set the range and efficiency standard. It will be interesting to see what a new fully electric Ioniq delivers. At present, even with less battery capacity, the Ioniq can perform incredibly well.
They are pouch cells in a metal box that is just the construction has nothing to do with chemistry used. They are not LiFePO4 but rather NCM (Nickel Cobalt Manganese) much higher energy density than LiFePO4. The largest EV manufacturer BYD is using LiFePO4
For most cases not having liquid cooling works just fine long distance traveling with a leaf is just no fun and most will use it for short distance trips where not having the complexity of liquid cooling is better. Future cars will not have liquid cooling a s batteries will improve in therms of internal impedance.
A Zoe wouldn't stand a chance. This race is not about battery size, it is about efficiency and charging speed. It would have stand no chance against the Ioniq and even this one was hampered due to fast charger issues.
Interesting result. That was a good piece of motor journalism guys. Nissan has some serious thinking, not to mention actions to take before I trust them with my hard earned. I really thought that the Leaf was going to be my next car. I like the Leaf and really want it to succeed, but I need more usability from it than this video showed. Any news about installing thermal management for the 40kwh leaf? Does anyone know how much the 60kwh leaf is going to cost? What’s the news on the larger battery ionic expected later in the year?
Hi James and Kate. I'm looking at maybe buying a second hand leaf as I've been inspired by your video's. There are however a few questions that I have. Can you charge these outside in the rain from home on granny charge? Can you get a fast charger for the first gen leaf as this is what I'm looking for? And how do you get charging cards to chargers away from home. I am looking at a leaf at a fiat dealer in Nuneaton with 38k on the clock and 11 bars on the battery display at a price of 8k. These might sound daft but ,this will be a big step for me and j don't want to get it wrong. P.s. love the vids.I live in atherstone so not far from you.
Love this video, and the Ioniq is a brilliant EV.. BUT it does NOT have the smallest battery of the pack. Hyundai uses NET capacity.. and Nissan uses GROSS capacity. In reality the Ioniq has around 32kWh Gross battery-capacity
Just like to say thanks. Its because of guys like you and the likes of Nikki at Transport Evolved that keeps the ev car companies on their toes. Rapidgate isn't so much a scandal as a indictment of the lack of any real basic development on Nissans part.
Absolutely brilliant video. Can I ask which vehicle would you say is better atm, the Ioniq EV, the new Nissan or wit a few more months to see how the market plays out over the next few months?
Great video race , very impressed with the Hyundai , wonder if that a duff leaf he got ? Blimey if they all like that gonna create a right sh#t storm lol even kryten mentioned it on fully charged. Nice to see she's electric what a star ! Cheers lads and lady 😉👍👍👍
As there is no thermal management and cooling is passive the ambient temperature plays almost no role as the heat transfer from battery to the ambient is minimal. Not sure what went wrong there maybe the battery electric heater (if it was equipped with one) worked based on external ambient temperature ignoring the already high battery temperature after the first rapid charges. Also if the 40kWh Leaf had the heating on all the time vs the 30kWh leaf and that cabin heater is maybe at around 3 to 4kW then that will have added up significantly to the amount of battery heat up as that is not linear with power draw. Assuming driving at 100km/h for about 2h say 16kW average power consumption that is about 40A at 400V (just using round numbers) say battery is around 90% efficient in this conditions then 1.6kW will be heat loss inside the battery 1600W/40A = 40V drop on internal battery resistance and connections between cells so that is equivalent with about 1Ohm then if that 16kW power increases to 20kW because of 4kW used by the cabin heating then 20000W/400V = 50A and at 1Ohm battery impedance heat loss will be 50A x 50A x 1Ohm = 2500W significantly faster heating and so faster increase in battery temperature than at 1600W The future of EV is not to have a thermal management but batteries with better characteristics (better internal impedance so much less heating). Most people will not drive this sort of distances with an EV and 99% of the time EV will be used to commute to work and shopping. Battery will also need to drop in price a fair bit to be able to compete with ICE in therms of cost per unit of distance.
Electrodacus, I don't know where you got your math. The Leaf 40 has a 40 kWh battery, 0 - 50 % means it would charge 20 kWh. If this is in 1 hour, this is the charging speed of 20 kW. At higher states of charge the BMS starts to taper down, so 90% in two hours is perfectly reasonable too. Your calculation about heat loss in the battery is correct, but you use wrong numbers. At normal speeds, the loss on the battery is only about 5%. But if you continue with your math, you see why fast charging (at 40-45 kW) heats up the battery so much. EVs are already ready to be the first family car. Chevrolet Bolt 60, Hyundai Kona 64, even the Ioniq 28/31 kWh(although, admitted, the battery is a bit small, it should have 40 or 50 kWh). It is Nissan's error, relying on data from Leaf 1, that EVs are only used as short-/mid- range commuter cars. Yes, with a 24 kWh battery they cannot do anything more. With a 40 kWh battery, they can easily be a first family car. Hyundai Ioniq just proved it. It came to the finish, it could turn around and do the same trip once again with no issue, and every charging stop was only 20-25 minutes. Both Leafs would have no chance. They both overheated, the new one did that just a bit earlier.
:) No idea where I got my math and you are right if it charged from zero to 50% it should take about 1h at around 20kW charge rate. I doubt he arived at or very close to zero that is why I was thinking 1h was to much to get at 50% with the claimed 24kW charge rate. Not sure what you consider normal speed I assumed in my calculation they where driving at 100km/h (round number) and there the discharge rate is around 16kW so not that far from that slow 20kW charge rate thus battery still heating while driving. I assumed 10% loss as heat due to battery internal resistance and interconnects and I'm sure is closer to that than to 5% for the Leaf at my assumed speed of 100km/h For now EV's are more expensive in therms of cost amortization than equivalent gasoline cars and that is mostly because of battery cost amortization.
You have a valid idea about internal resistance, but I still think it is wrong. According to your calculation, what would happen it the car drove at 150 km/h? You would have an about 1,5^2 (increased drag) x 1,5 (increased distance)= 3,375 times higher consumption and since the current would have to be 3,37 times higher, the heat loss would be P = R x I^2 about 11 times higher. So if the heat loss at 100 km/h and 16 kW would be 1,6 kW, the heat loss at 150 km/h, using 54 kW, the heat loss due to internal resistance would be about 18 kW? Are you so sure about your numbers? Well, I am not. I'll stay at 5% at the battery. If you are missing some percent, they are at the inverter and the motor :) Where Nissan Leaf has the problem is not (so much) the internal resistance of the battery, but a very insulated (or very badly cooled, however you like) battery. Even passive cooling with the drive-wind doesn't help much. And it is easy to know why. The source cause is the shape of the battery, it has a design which is mostly under the seats (similar to e-Golf), where competitors (Hyundai Ioniq and Kia Soul) have a more evenly distributed battery. Google "Nissan Leaf 2018 battery design" pictures. An evenly thick battery can be cooled by air (Hyundai, Kia), but a battery with big bulges can only be cooled by an internal liquid cooling with pipes etc. Nissan saved the money - and produced a car with a serious design flaw. It could be called bad engineering, but I'd call it even - a bad decisions in the management. A decision that gives a bad taste to the brand. The rest will become automotive history. It will be a public outcry in the summer when people with cars which were parked in the sun will try to fast-charge and they will receive less than 30 kW even at the first charging session! The second and the third? 18 - 20 kW, maybe, if they are lucky. Some people even called it "planned obsolesce". They wouldn't do that. Or would they?
Yes if speed is increased the power needed will increase also significantly and if all power will be related to drag (most is at those speeds) and formula contains speed to the power of 3 and so yes there is a 3.37 times higher consumption to drive at 150km/h instead of 100km/h The 1Ohm (round number) battery resistance was just an example to show how slightly higher power will affect the heat loss inside the battery pack. I have no idea about the characteristics of Nissan Leaf cells. I know they have groups of two cells and 96 of this groups in series on the older Leaf. That will mean 1Ohm/96s = 10.4mOhm DC internal resistance and not that unlikely including all the connection resistance and cables. Still even if that is half so 0.5Ohm for the entire pack (again fairly realistic can be even a bit lower) then at 40A there are 20V drop (0.2V for each cell) so 800W lost as internal heat in the pack at 16kW / 100km/h If then you need 3,37x more at 150km/h that is as you mentioned 54kW / 400V = 135A x 135A x 0.5Ohm = 9112kW lost as heat that will be a 0.7V drop on each cell and likely if battery has this internal DC resistance and Leaf is below 50% SOC you will be limited and not able to sustain 150km/h. My point was that even small difference in speed between the cars tested and even the way they are driven (acceleration) + the cabin heather will have had significant influence on how the battery will heat up. That said the Hyundai has massively better internal resistance than both Leaf's with the detriment of lower capacity. My Point was that better batteries will be used in the future (lower internal resistance) thus active cooling will not be needed. There will not be much difference between this colder weather and summer as the heat dissipation to ambient will still be small in both conditions. For most Leaf owners this heating will not be an issue as most will have this for short commute and very occasional a single high speed charging.
Even if the heat loss on the battery is 9 kW (on average, at very high power output), the battery and the car will be able to sustain a high speed right to the end. A lower voltage just means that the motor will pull more amps. This is also seen if the driver uses Leafspy - the battery get significantly hotter as the SOC closes to 0%, so the best advice to the user is A) not to discharge below 20% or B) drive 10-20% slower when the SOC gets closer to 0%. Internal resistance is related to chemistry and I don't see that here much could be done, maybe small improvements, but not orders of magnitude. So active cooling (thermal management system - TMS) will be needed until somebody comes up with a radical change of design. What *will* come are bigger bateries and this will decrease the ratio of current / battery size. Teslas have twice as big batteries and there the effect is easily shown, the effect of discharging the battery in 3 hours instead of 1.5 is big. > For most Leaf owners this heating will not be an issue as most will have this for short commute and very occasional a single high speed charging. *I am worried about those who think that Leaf 2018 is a long-range capable car before they buy it where it isn't.* *Chevrolet Bolt, BMW i3, even equally priced Hyundai Ioniq are,* with the limitation of the need to be charged quite often (in the case of i3 and Ioniq). *Of course also Hyundai Kona.* You are talking about some future, but a) this may be some distant future and b) maybe active cooling will not kick in that often, but it will still be needed. *But we are talking about now.* Any Leaf, not even the newest 2018 we are talking about, isn't prepared for long trips (beyond 200 miles in summer and /maybe/ 300 miles in winter). *If people will drive long distances in summer in a Leaf 2018, their rapid charges won't be "rapid".* That's all.
When the problem is fixed you need to do a rematch 😉 the fact the problem has its own banner, Twitter # Rapidgate is farcical to Nissan. Whatever money spent on fancy advertising, launch has been wasted as this has taken the headline. Nissan it’s like close but no-cigar as they say. They now have a car that will always have that Rapidgate round its neck like a lingering bad taste - well done them. They have to absolutely nail it’s bigger brother coming later with thermal management. Great clip, when others would look at the forecast and say “Nah” you all powered on. 👏👏👏 Credit to the EV community.
My Halifax and Paypal apps allow usage of touch sensor :) So index finger (I prefer fingerprint sensor to be on the back) to login and that's it! And ringGo (parking) doesn't always even log me out! C'mon Ecotricity!!
Ecotricity aren't making most of the business opportunity.. I'd say almost half of my rapids have been free since they started charging fees.. I feel a bit rotten I've had so many free miles
Should not charge more than 70% on a race a charge slows down a lot after 70% 20charges at 15 minutes each is better than14 charges at 30 minutes the heat gets high on charge but the discharge in cold weather under 70% should stay safe
James, what can you say about the battery of your 30Kw? According to some recent studies the degradation is alarmingly fast, like 3x of 24Kw. Some of the reasons being no 80% charging mode and no limits on charging even when overheated. pushevs.com/2018/03/20/nissan-l … batteries/ Thanks for the great video! :)
It's so disappointing with the 40 kWh charging problem. I had big hopes that it would easily win this race when I first got wind of this race. Imagine that, the old 30 kWh car beat the new 40 kWh car! And then the Ionic did even better! My theory is that Nissan has been over-enthusiastic with protecting the battery from external temperatures so that the insulation starts to work against it when the battery heats up from charging. The heat is not let out of the battery. Otherwise I don't see how it would overheat when it's below freezing outside. Being too cold I could see but not too warm.
An Ioniq with a 50 kWh battery is unbeatable if everybody uses sub-50 kW chargers. Even the current 28 kWh, using 100 kW chargers, can match Model 3 standard and Model S 60. If the Ioniq would have a 50 kWh battery and use 100 kW chargers, it could keep pace with Model 3 long range, Model S 75 and 85 and Jaguar iPace. I won't say it would win, but it would be tight. And that's impressive because these cars cost easily 50% or 100% more! But there is the Kona 64 kWh. A close substitute for the Ioniq 50, except at speeds of 70 mph and above where the Ioniq would show it's efficiency.
Richard Petek I've got to wonder what doubling the weight of the battery would do to efficiency though, and also if they added so much weight to it could they still use the same motor. I still am rooting for it either way but it still hasnt came to my country in the 28kwh pack. If they ever get their battery pack constraints sorted out it would be phenomenal though.
Larry Spiller, for +60% increase you need a bigger motor, but it doesn't have to be 60% bigger, since the rest of the car stays almost the same. And - a bigger battery has lower internal resistance. And a bigger motor doesn't increase the consumption, if you drive at the same speed. A heavier car has a bigger rolling resistance, this cannot be avoided. But at motorway speeds, drag is the main force, so the increased weight does contribute only a few percent. So, give this car a 50 kWh battery and it is a Model 3 "killer" - or a better to say, a true competitor.
Up until 40kWh has not been fixed. Anybody who wants to go further faster KEEP SOC high. I mean do not dip below 25%. Charge higher. Most heat is generated at low SOC.
WHAT!!! A 29 minute video! There's no way I'm watching all that just to find out about this silly race and Leaf issue!... 29 minutes later... Damn, that was a good video. Subscribed.
Thanks for watching and welcome aboard, plenty more to come.....
Thank you for making this video James, and in such harsh conditions, better than watching an episode of Top Gear!
Thank you for your nice comments :-)
Well worth the wait for this video. Congratulations to the joint winners and of course poor Jonathons woes are well justified.
I cancelled my Leaf order today :) thanks for the video and saving me lots of anguish. Much appreciated.
May I ask why you cancelled your Leaf order?
@@Demobot1 It appears the leaf has a poor BMS system and no liquid cooling/heating on the battery so it can't manage long road trips. A good car for driving around town though!
Really good race. Just goes to show its not just the one with the biggest battery wins. it’s how you manage the battery and how efficient it is. Enjoyed this one. Keep it up.
Great test of three EVs in some pretty bad winter conditions. It’s very disappointing that the 40 kWh LEAF’s charging tapers down as battery temperature increases. I suspect they do it to prevent degradation, but it really hamper’s the vehicle’s usefulness. Nissan should have learned their lesson from the earlier LEAFs and installed thermal management instead of going with this slow charging bandaid.
Keep up the great content! I’d love to see more EV adventures like this with other vehicles... perhaps a summer road trip.
Even worse that the battery gets hot in bitter cold weather.
Keep in mind that the Ioniq is able to charge MUCH faster than it does on these DBT chargers.
I tested it on the new 175kW Fastned chargers in Holland couple of weeks ago and average charge rate from 20% to 75% was 77kW. It seems to be able to pull 200A up to 75%.
A race using chargers like that it would have been no contest.
Tesla territory, and they are setting the bar for sure.
Thank you. The new Leaf will not be a problem for me. Start from home with a full charge, that should give me 150 odd miles. The first rapid charge will give me say 120 miles and then the second will give me 120 miles. I would not wish to drive more than that in one day.
TBH most people will be unaffected by it, and the car is still great
David Fox, that could be possible in winter, each fast charge will take about 1 hour.
In summer you'll get only 1 fast charge since the battery will be much warmer in the beginning and it will cool down a lot slower. The second one will be painfully slow.
Awesome video James, the 40kWh is amazing for all the tech and gadgets. But it'll be good to have another challenge in the summer if Nissan tweaks the 40kWh Leaf.
You do a great job also.
the leaf didn't have active battery temperature control....so it wouldn't use the rapid charge when the battery temperature is too high or too low. the ioniq has better air dynamic....and it's lighter, weaker engine also more efficiency tire. it's not all good on ioniq tho...but if we're just talking about efficiency, ioniq is better
Great experiment and and really surprising about the Ionic. Top marks to you all.
Great video James, unless you have another volunteer i'd love to be part of a spring or summer test with the 41kWh Zoe (Q90 Quick Charge) included. I might be repeating myself to you, but I did London to Stonehouse (420 miles) the day before you all set off.
Andrew Goodlad if the Zoe beats the Nissan leaf 40kw it would be like adding insult to injury
Andrew Goodlad Reckon you'd win easy with the big battery and active thermal management
What a compelling video and well done to all who took part. This is a classic piece of responsible social media, to the extent that would-be EV owners don’t just assume that a bigger battery means a better car and that the like of Nissan can view it as constructive criticism and do something about it.
we are always doing this journey, if you keep up with us on twitter you'll see when we are next heading off, I'm sure we can get something together :-)
I have a strange feeling that the Zoe would beat the leaf!!!
*I don't get how Nissan Leaf 40kw overheats the battery in -5 (freezing cold)* ???
I mean does Nissan Engineers acknowledge the existence of SUMMER ? will the battery melt while charging at 30c on normal summer temperatures ???
The truly crazy thing... is to see the drivers doing without heating, to save energy, freezing cold... whilst beneath them, are batteries, that are too hot. Making use of waste heat, to warm the interior, was something that GM had worked out by 1930!
Quentin Cope surely their should be away to use the heat from the batteries or the electric engine to warm up the car interior , without wasting additional power from the batteries ,I mean when you only have a few miles range , you can't afford to waste it on heating
We'll just have to wait and find out!
No, it won't melt, but the user will get only one fast charge up to 80-90% in 45-60 minutes. The rest will be slow, at about 22 kW, half the normal speed.
Richard Petek
Following your logic you could leave home with a full battery and drive in summer like you have stolen your leaf 2018 and arrive to your first supercharger with the batteries cold as ice ,
*is not happening* , even before any charge you can overheat the batteries by simply driving at normal motorway speeds 75 + MPH in Hot weather
Excellent Race! Thank you for having this race under such horrid conditions! Side note, My local sales rep for Hyundai told me in reality the Ioniq battery is actually 31 KW and 28 usable and only advertises the usable aspect of the battery, not sure if this changes anything honestly. Cheers!
FANTASTIC!!! I was glued!!! I knew the 30kwh would do well but the Hyundai was REALLY Impressive.
Well done again and great editing as usual.
What an epic piece of film! Love my memories of the days when driving an EV still was an Adventure! The Ioniq won by a considerable amount, if you account for the faulty chargers. And it appears James had a heater at his disposal in his Ioniq, while the Leafists resorted to blankets in their 🥶🥶 cars.
4 years ago... Glad people still watch it, if only to reminisce. Without a doubt there was only one winner 😀
@@Jamesandkate 4 Years ago really was the turning point, wasn't it? I've had a Tesla before that, because there was no alternative. But the Ioniq made so much more sense on many levels. It really was the first sensible and fully practical EV, and it coincided with CCS charging becoming sufficiently available and reliable. At least here in Switzerland and France, where I'm driving. And I think it still hit the sweet spot like no other car to this day. I just ran out of battery warranty on mine a few days ago @200'000km and I'm not worried.
Loved to watch the video, great people having a great time! Thanks m8👍
Don't think I'll be going for a LEAF 40 anytime soon, given this particular issue. I only need to do an Aberdeen/Midlands, Midlands/Aberdeen journey once a year, but I want fast charging on the whole trip.
I predicted the Ionic would win. It’s way more efficient. I noticed this a while back when I test drove one.
Well done worth the wait for me ionic clear winner and he probably had his heater on lol
david coe I was wondering about this. Did the IONIQ driver use the heater? He didn’t look particularly bundled up and he never mentioned being cold. The LEAF drivers were clearly very cold, often with condensation on the windows from the lack of heat.
Good question
The question about the heating was answered by James in another question. Yes, the Ioniq had the heater on, the Leaf 30 driver was freezing and the 40 kWh Leaf was out of the ballgame anyway.
Nicely done, the three of you! The Ioniq must have better aerodynamics, less weight and better battery management. Unless James is a more efficient driver? It's a big shame that Nissan have skimped on thermal management, so let's hope that they can either find a workaround or else retro-fit a cooling system.
Thanks, James and Kate, for your hospitality last week, and for the opportunity to travel in your Tesla. It's an awesome experience, and the car lives up to its reputation!
great test guys - well done. Would be good to see one in the summer too.
Ioniq's battery is 31kw, using 28. Leaf uses around 27. Hyundai startes useable capacity unlike Nissan.
I was going to say just that, the 30kWh LEAF actually has the smallest battery of those three cars. Add in the better aerodynamics and general efficiency of the Ioniq you can see why it would have won, had chargers not been an issue.
Personally I'm still shying away from CCS cars for now in the UK, still too few chargers as compared to CHAdeMO. I had hoped my next car would be the 40kWh LEAF but after hearing the first rumblings of what's now called #Rapidgate, a couple of weeks ago I instead opted for a 30kWh Kia Soul EV. Should be a decent step up (when it arrives in about August) from my 24kWh LEAF, if not quite the leap that I'd originally hoped for.
You will LOve your Soul, I am getting 75-80 miles from my 27kw driving my 70 mile commute every day down the dual carriageway @56-60 in UK weather. with the active thermal managment I can fill my car from 15% - 94% in 33 mins
I have also done 4 rapids in a row before with no slowing down :)
The most rapid charges I've done in a day, in my 24kWh LEAF, is 9 (Sussex to Edinburgh). No slow downs (if anything it seemed to get a touch quicker...)
There is a regular trip to Cardiff Bay that I do (360 miles return, in a day). I'm going to feel very smug that my Soul EV will do that quicker than the 40kWh LEAF, especially in the summer!
Very well edited, once past the first full battery charge rate and efficiency become important, I think I managed something silly like 6.7 miles to the kWh when I spent an afternoon with an IONIQ last summer.
wow, thats very very high, clearly a great driver :-)
Slow traffic day around Matlock and downhill run back into Derby on the A38 from Alfreton helped but still a super efficient car at speed.
What a great test. Good job guys! So efficiency and charging speed can be more determinant than battery size. Another lesson learned. Hope Nissan fix the problem with rapid charging soon. I wonder if the 30 kWh Leaf would have performed as good as the Ionic in a sunny summer day as the battery temperature in the Leaf was close to its limit despite low outside temperature.
Hi Neal, so the 30 makes its best even with high temperatures, good to know. But for the future (and the present 40 Leaf) in order to reduce battery degradation Nissan should change battery management system and improve user experience. Besides, improving battery life avoids CO2 emissions that will be released to manufacture a new replacement battery. Also improves cost of ownership.
Great video, can't believe how well that Hyundai performed. Amazing!
It's almost a bit weird to see how everyone realizes how good the Ioniq really is, almost two years after it's unveil. Nothing has changed, yet here we are astonished that excellent aerodynamics and somewhat low weight helps long range travel at highway speeds? Could this be consequence of Hyundai not delivering a lot cars, hence it being absolutely drowned by new releases, taking away our attention to what really matters, efficiency.
Oh and, thanks for sharing and making this video. The market segment that the Ioniq represents is only contested by the Model 3 so far, which is a bit slim. Would like to see other manufacturers coming onto the small to medium saloon market too. And I think this showcase really enlightens the utility and performance that can be had.
Actually there are a few competitors. BMW i3, Hyundai Kona 40 and 64 and Bolt 60. Ioniq would beat an i3 since it is more efficient. Kona 40 would be a draw.
Kona 64 and Bolt would probably beat the Ioniq since they need fewer charging stops, but it would be close.
Even when using 100 kW CCS, Kona and Bolt charge faster.
A 50 kWh Ioniq would beat them all. This car would be in Tesla Model 3 / Model S 75 territory.
Great effort guys in such horrendous weather! Fair do’s I doff my cap to you all! And now look forward to the challenges ahead in my new EV 👍
Testing whether a battery overheats in freezing temperature?
Great video! As someone who’s about to get a new 2018 Leaf it’s good so many people have flagged the rapid charge issues now, it’s probably saved me some potential anguish. From everything I’ve seen I have zero expectations of any “fix”. I don’t see Nissan changing their mind about battery protection and easing up on the charge vs batt temp throttling, and I really can’t see a recall to install any battery temp management hardware. Personally I’m fine with all this as I never plan to take mine more that a hundred miles once in a blue moon. Nevertheless I think we are all a bit disappointed in what otherwise is an excellent update to an already excellent EV. As for the Ionic, it always looked like a brilliant car and this goes further to prove it. So big props to Hyundai, I just prefer the look of the new Leaf, and a test drive made me fall in love with it.
Ok James here’s a quick thought, what if you only rapid charged the 40kw Leaf to 50-60% instead of 80%? Do you think that lessening the extra heat an 80% charge over a 60% charge would help keep the temp down? You’d start with 100% to begin so benefit from the distance advantage.
I'm just re-watching this video.
It has now become an important piece of EV history.
And it had it's share in my first EV being an Ioniq ⚡
Awesome video guys! Thanks so much for all the effort of making it! Wow super interesting results and just confirms all the rumours about the 40kWh Leaf not being able to handle more that 1 rapid. So disappointing Nissan would release a car with such a massive short coming. That ioniq is a very impressive machine, hats off to Hyundai! This has confirmed it for me not in go for the 40kWh Leaf and hold on to my trusty 24kWh Leaf until either the 64kWh Hyundai Kona comes out or even the roumoured upgraded ioniq
Four years on and still a favourite.
Would be good to see a 38kWh Ioniq up against a couple of rivals but I guess these Aberdeen endurance runs are history.
In our quest to get an EV we find ourselves still hunting. We've resisted the hype of new and decided that we really cannot justify the 250 mile range in a Kona or an eNiro so we're looking at a 38kWh Ioniq. Looks like it does everything that we realistically need with some headroom in range and plenty of space for our camping kit or those trips with an elderly relative taking him to visit family members.
The 38kWh is king.
One thing that was obvious (and not mentioned) was James in the Ioniq was not dressed as if he was mountaineering while driving. Presuming he's not some hard man, the Ioniq has to be the 'most useable' EV?
absolutely spot on. James did the whole journey with the heater on while i was freezing :-)
It looks that he wanted to participate and win
and you wanted to crush the Ioniq, no matter what :-)
Thanks for this James. Very enlightning
what was the actual Driving time for the Leaf30 & Ioniq arriving at the destination?
Watching speeded-up videos of snow driving on the motorway gives me the screaming ab-dabs!
Excellent video. As if we didn't already know...'Hyundai are coming!' (already here of course) Really enjoyed that one 👍
Hmm, I can see the resale values of the 40kwh Leafs going off a cliff. My previous car was a Hyundai Getz which I ran for seven years of trouble-free motoring before getting my 24kwh Leaf. I think the Koreans are showing the way.
I really enjoyed this video. I’ve been pushing the range/temperature limits of my own 2018, last of the 30kw Leaf’s on 400km trips in Ireland so I can relate to the factors you are balancing. It’s like a new sport. A similar challenge in UK ‘summer’ would be interesting. I’m looking forward to some higher mileage trips myself later in the year as I use the car to get me to nationwide events in a Championship I cover.
In summer? Without CCS charger issues, the 30 kWh Leaf would be 2 hours behind and the 40 kWh Leaf at least 2 more.
Fantastic viewing and a true test of EVs capabilities
Super video proving bigger is not always better
Hi James, I beleive your video of the 450 mile race has made Nissan sit up and take notice, Bjorn Nyland's 1000km trip also confirmed your honest findings, the ball is with Nissan now, they have a great chance here to make it right and become a serious leader in the EV market, but if they drop the ball ...
I really hope they fix this issue and do the right thing for the future of EV travel.
Great vid, let’s hope they get that battery issue sorted ready for the summer rematch😎🤔
I don't work for Hyundai, and that ioniq, is a compromised design, due to being a hybrid, phev, ev. Every test I've seen the ioniq seems to be amazing apart from grip. What's a pure Hyundai ev design going to be like? I'd say incredible.
We really hope that Nissan solve the range problem with the 40Kwh Leaf.
However were really pleased that the Ioniq acquitted itself so well.
It just happens that we have the Ioniq Hybrid and that is super efficient too.
We can't have a home charger unfortunately.
Lots of love for the Ioniq. What a car!
James the place name of the services just in Scotland is Abington Abingdon is in the south midlands of England. Just in case you get lost.
Great video! And a surprise... I’m going to have to really consider my options when my PCP ends on my current Leaf 24KWh in September. Sounds like I’ll be too early for the Kona, and possibly the 60KWh Leaf too. But the IONIQ might be a sensible option...
Monumentally intriguing and effective-efficiency revealing.
// You should all be compensated for your sleepless competitiveness.
Did I miss this, but did they ever say the length of time it took for each of the three cars to travel the 420 miles?
as i dont like Ioniq, it showed me the older Leaf is the better choice and actually saves 10tsd euro compared with Leaf 2. Thanks a lot for this epic race
Great eye opener video. Thanks and well done. Two questions if I may. How many charges did the 40kWh Leaf do before the 2 hour wait and how did you find all of those free chargers? Especially Ecotricty. I thought they hadn't been free for 2 years.
Can anybody tell, what kind of problem with the chargers did James in the Ioniq have?
It seems that both Leafs didn't have those. No correct RFID chips? Problems with non-functioning chargers? Not used to the car or CCS?
How much time did he loose due to those problems?
Obviously both Leaf users admitted that the Ioniq EV should have easily won.
Great video but I didn't manage to work out how long the whole journey took?
Great video though! I hope to see more of this type of challenge in the future with other sets of cars. This is the new Top Gear. Well almost :)
Also, it would be nice with an overlay map of where you are when charging along the route.
Hi guys, thanks for doing this video. However, I think you could have summarized this in a much shorter time. We don't necessarily need to see all the driving and stopping stuff. Also, if you kept logs with stats, that would have been good to see (how long each car drove between stops, how long fast charged and at what kW rate, what was battery SOC at before charging then after, what was battery temp at before and after each charge, etc.. I think a breakdown of this for each would be very interesting, you did provide a bit of info for the Leaf 2.0 at one point. Thanks.
Bjorn Nyland will probably get the stats.
Bjorn Nyland actually did a thorough 1000 km 19 hours long test with the Nissan Leaf 2.0 40 kWh and he made 2 videos, a short with recommendations and a long one with all the stats:
th-cam.com/video/QycmLQriePU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/foSYZ7bVhYk/w-d-xo.html
Enjoy!
Excellent video let's see wot Nissan comes up with it is worrying buying a car and it doesn't come up to the mark I have a 24kw and 40kw leaf absolutely love driving both but a bit flabbergasted why Nissan didn't see charge gate coming......
Good video. I assume you've seen TeslaBjorn's video. He had a hard time getting the power charged to the car to add up with the dash displays. Concerning.
yep, we follow Bjorn, all pretty familiar...
Very interesting video. I wonder did you summarize all amount KWh delivered by the charging stations?
Why was this trip done at night and not daytime, I may have missed it but how long did the the first finisher take to do the 450 miles
Excellent job; well done guys. Lets hope Nissan sort out this issue., I should pick-up my 40kWh soon, I'd like it too be the car I thought I was ordering.
Great video , enjoyed it very much 👍🏻will stick with my 30kwh leaf 😄that bit longer .
Thanks for this video. Nissan said to me that long distance trip concerned 3% of Nissan owners. That is the reason active cooling system is not fit in it...even for next generation of Nissan Leaf...i did cancel my order to Nissan. Sad
so why fit a bigger battery if that is the case????
Still think the 30 is a great car 👍 good entertainment from all 3 teams, well done.
Cheers John
What app are you using to track each others real-time progress?
A really interesting video. Well done. Is it possible to have more details about timings, routes, costs.
Would the rapid charge problems not be exaggerated in the summer when its warmer?
Did the Ioniq use 100kW DC CCS?
From the Netherlands, thanks for the very interesting video! I’m looking for a hybrid or ev car. Your video’s are important for my choice, Again, thanks!
The Ioniq is still the long range champion. For me who at most do ~200km maximum a day? I still take the Leaf 40 kWh.
Still saving money for now - perhaps the 60 kWh in the works?
The Ioniq, compared with most other EV's (e.g. Nissan and Renault) with greater battery capacity appears to set the range and efficiency standard. It will be interesting to see what a new fully electric Ioniq delivers. At present, even with less battery capacity, the Ioniq can perform incredibly well.
1st leaf is lifepo4 chemistry which is ok without active thermal management. 40kwh with lipo battery needs active thermal management.
No Leaf has a LiFePO4 battery the 24,30 and 40kWh have the same chemistry just higher energy density on the 40kWh version.
electrodacus no both Zoe 40 and leaf 40 use lg chem prismatic lithium ion cells like in Chevy bolt
They are pouch cells in a metal box that is just the construction has nothing to do with chemistry used. They are not LiFePO4 but rather NCM (Nickel Cobalt Manganese) much higher energy density than LiFePO4.
The largest EV manufacturer BYD is using LiFePO4
electrodacus anyway they need liquid cooling.
For most cases not having liquid cooling works just fine long distance traveling with a leaf is just no fun and most will use it for short distance trips where not having the complexity of liquid cooling is better.
Future cars will not have liquid cooling a s batteries will improve in therms of internal impedance.
shame you didn't add a Zoe in the mix.
A Zoe wouldn't stand a chance. This race is not about battery size, it is about efficiency and charging speed. It would have stand no chance against the Ioniq and even this one was hampered due to fast charger issues.
Interesting result. That was a good piece of motor journalism guys. Nissan has some serious thinking, not to mention actions to take before I trust them with my hard earned.
I really thought that the Leaf was going to be my next car. I like the Leaf and really want it to succeed, but I need more usability from it than this video showed. Any news about installing thermal management for the 40kwh leaf?
Does anyone know how much the 60kwh leaf is going to cost?
What’s the news on the larger battery ionic expected later in the year?
Great work folks.
Hi James and Kate.
I'm looking at maybe buying a second hand leaf as I've been inspired by your video's.
There are however a few questions that I have.
Can you charge these outside in the rain from home on granny charge?
Can you get a fast charger for the first gen leaf as this is what I'm looking for?
And how do you get charging cards to chargers away from home.
I am looking at a leaf at a fiat dealer in Nuneaton with 38k on the clock and 11 bars on the battery display at a price of 8k.
These might sound daft but ,this will be a big step for me and j don't want to get it wrong.
P.s. love the vids.I live in atherstone so not far from you.
Great video as always guys and girls.
Nissan need to get their act together, otherwise the new 200 mile range Ioniq, due in 2018, will blow their Leaf to the weeds!
Great video James, would have been interesting to see how the Tesla would have done on this kind of journey.
Entertaining and informative. Thanks.
Love this video, and the Ioniq is a brilliant EV.. BUT it does NOT have the smallest battery of the pack. Hyundai uses NET capacity.. and Nissan uses GROSS capacity. In reality the Ioniq has around 32kWh Gross battery-capacity
Just like to say thanks. Its because of guys like you and the likes of Nikki at Transport Evolved that keeps the ev car companies on their toes.
Rapidgate isn't so much a scandal as a indictment of the lack of any real basic development on Nissans part.
...or it could just be a bug in the battery management software? Cock up over conspiracy every time (unless it's Facebook ;-).
I’m confused who’s in what car. Can you put an Id on each shot?
darren scott Mr glasses in 40kwh, cardigan in 30kwh, other bloke in ioniq
Absolutely brilliant video. Can I ask which vehicle would you say is better atm, the Ioniq EV, the new Nissan or wit a few more months to see how the market plays out over the next few months?
Great video race , very impressed with the Hyundai , wonder if that a duff leaf he got ? Blimey if they all like that gonna create a right sh#t storm lol even kryten mentioned it on fully charged. Nice to see she's electric what a star ! Cheers lads and lady 😉👍👍👍
-3C or -3F?
Wow. I'm speechless. Nissan should be ashamed for trying to pass a fast one on us.
That was interesting! What a great car that Ioniq is!
Personally, I'd get the Caledonian Sleeper and wake up nice and refreshed in Aberdeen!
As there is no thermal management and cooling is passive the ambient temperature plays almost no role as the heat transfer from battery to the ambient is minimal.
Not sure what went wrong there maybe the battery electric heater (if it was equipped with one) worked based on external ambient temperature ignoring the already high battery temperature after the first rapid charges.
Also if the 40kWh Leaf had the heating on all the time vs the 30kWh leaf and that cabin heater is maybe at around 3 to 4kW then that will have added up significantly to the amount of battery heat up as that is not linear with power draw.
Assuming driving at 100km/h for about 2h say 16kW average power consumption that is about 40A at 400V (just using round numbers) say battery is around 90% efficient in this conditions then 1.6kW will be heat loss inside the battery 1600W/40A = 40V drop on internal battery resistance and connections between cells so that is equivalent with about 1Ohm then if that 16kW power increases to 20kW because of 4kW used by the cabin heating then 20000W/400V = 50A and at 1Ohm battery impedance heat loss will be 50A x 50A x 1Ohm = 2500W significantly faster heating and so faster increase in battery temperature than at 1600W
The future of EV is not to have a thermal management but batteries with better characteristics (better internal impedance so much less heating).
Most people will not drive this sort of distances with an EV and 99% of the time EV will be used to commute to work and shopping.
Battery will also need to drop in price a fair bit to be able to compete with ICE in therms of cost per unit of distance.
Electrodacus, I don't know where you got your math. The Leaf 40 has a 40 kWh battery, 0 - 50 % means it would charge 20 kWh. If this is in 1 hour, this is the charging speed of 20 kW.
At higher states of charge the BMS starts to taper down, so 90% in two hours is perfectly reasonable too.
Your calculation about heat loss in the battery is correct, but you use wrong numbers. At normal speeds, the loss on the battery is only about 5%. But if you continue with your math, you see why fast charging (at 40-45 kW) heats up the battery so much.
EVs are already ready to be the first family car. Chevrolet Bolt 60, Hyundai Kona 64, even the Ioniq 28/31 kWh(although, admitted, the battery is a bit small, it should have 40 or 50 kWh). It is Nissan's error, relying on data from Leaf 1, that EVs are only used as short-/mid- range commuter cars. Yes, with a 24 kWh battery they cannot do anything more. With a 40 kWh battery, they can easily be a first family car.
Hyundai Ioniq just proved it. It came to the finish, it could turn around and do the same trip once again with no issue, and every charging stop was only 20-25 minutes.
Both Leafs would have no chance. They both overheated, the new one did that just a bit earlier.
:) No idea where I got my math and you are right if it charged from zero to 50% it should take about 1h at around 20kW charge rate. I doubt he arived at or very close to zero that is why I was thinking 1h was to much to get at 50% with the claimed 24kW charge rate.
Not sure what you consider normal speed I assumed in my calculation they where driving at 100km/h (round number) and there the discharge rate is around 16kW so not that far from that slow 20kW charge rate thus battery still heating while driving. I assumed 10% loss as heat due to battery internal resistance and interconnects and I'm sure is closer to that than to 5% for the Leaf at my assumed speed of 100km/h
For now EV's are more expensive in therms of cost amortization than equivalent gasoline cars and that is mostly because of battery cost amortization.
You have a valid idea about internal resistance, but I still think it is wrong. According to your calculation, what would happen it the car drove at 150 km/h? You would have an about 1,5^2 (increased drag) x 1,5 (increased distance)= 3,375 times higher consumption and since the current would have to be 3,37 times higher, the heat loss would be P = R x I^2 about 11 times higher.
So if the heat loss at 100 km/h and 16 kW would be 1,6 kW, the heat loss at 150 km/h, using 54 kW, the heat loss due to internal resistance would be about 18 kW? Are you so sure about your numbers?
Well, I am not. I'll stay at 5% at the battery.
If you are missing some percent, they are at the inverter and the motor :)
Where Nissan Leaf has the problem is not (so much) the internal resistance of the battery, but a very insulated (or very badly cooled, however you like) battery. Even passive cooling with the drive-wind doesn't help much.
And it is easy to know why. The source cause is the shape of the battery, it has a design which is mostly under the seats (similar to e-Golf), where competitors (Hyundai Ioniq and Kia Soul) have a more evenly distributed battery. Google "Nissan Leaf 2018 battery design" pictures.
An evenly thick battery can be cooled by air (Hyundai, Kia), but a battery with big bulges can only be cooled by an internal liquid cooling with pipes etc.
Nissan saved the money - and produced a car with a serious design flaw. It could be called bad engineering, but I'd call it even - a bad decisions in the management. A decision that gives a bad taste to the brand.
The rest will become automotive history.
It will be a public outcry in the summer when people with cars which were parked in the sun will try to fast-charge and they will receive less than 30 kW even at the first charging session! The second and the third? 18 - 20 kW, maybe, if they are lucky.
Some people even called it "planned obsolesce".
They wouldn't do that.
Or would they?
Yes if speed is increased the power needed will increase also significantly and if all power will be related to drag (most is at those speeds) and formula contains speed to the power of 3 and so yes there is a 3.37 times higher consumption to drive at 150km/h instead of 100km/h
The 1Ohm (round number) battery resistance was just an example to show how slightly higher power will affect the heat loss inside the battery pack. I have no idea about the characteristics of Nissan Leaf cells.
I know they have groups of two cells and 96 of this groups in series on the older Leaf.
That will mean 1Ohm/96s = 10.4mOhm DC internal resistance and not that unlikely including all the connection resistance and cables.
Still even if that is half so 0.5Ohm for the entire pack (again fairly realistic can be even a bit lower) then at 40A there are 20V drop (0.2V for each cell) so 800W lost as internal heat in the pack at 16kW / 100km/h
If then you need 3,37x more at 150km/h that is as you mentioned 54kW / 400V = 135A x 135A x 0.5Ohm = 9112kW lost as heat that will be a 0.7V drop on each cell and likely if battery has this internal DC resistance and Leaf is below 50% SOC you will be limited and not able to sustain 150km/h.
My point was that even small difference in speed between the cars tested and even the way they are driven (acceleration) + the cabin heather will have had significant influence on how the battery will heat up.
That said the Hyundai has massively better internal resistance than both Leaf's with the detriment of lower capacity.
My Point was that better batteries will be used in the future (lower internal resistance) thus active cooling will not be needed.
There will not be much difference between this colder weather and summer as the heat dissipation to ambient will still be small in both conditions. For most Leaf owners this heating will not be an issue as most will have this for short commute and very occasional a single high speed charging.
Even if the heat loss on the battery is 9 kW (on average, at very high power output), the battery and the car will be able to sustain a high speed right to the end. A lower voltage just means that the motor will pull more amps.
This is also seen if the driver uses Leafspy - the battery get significantly hotter as the SOC closes to 0%, so the best advice to the user is A) not to discharge below 20% or B) drive 10-20% slower when the SOC gets closer to 0%.
Internal resistance is related to chemistry and I don't see that here much could be done, maybe small improvements, but not orders of magnitude. So active cooling (thermal management system - TMS) will be needed until somebody comes up with a radical change of design.
What *will* come are bigger bateries and this will decrease the ratio of current / battery size. Teslas have twice as big batteries and there the effect is easily shown, the effect of discharging the battery in 3 hours instead of 1.5 is big.
> For most Leaf owners this heating will not be an issue as most will have this for short commute and very occasional a single high speed charging.
*I am worried about those who think that Leaf 2018 is a long-range capable car before they buy it where it isn't.*
*Chevrolet Bolt, BMW i3, even equally priced Hyundai Ioniq are,* with the limitation of the need to be charged quite often (in the case of i3 and Ioniq). *Of course also Hyundai Kona.*
You are talking about some future, but a) this may be some distant future and b) maybe active cooling will not kick in that often, but it will still be needed. *But we are talking about now.*
Any Leaf, not even the newest 2018 we are talking about, isn't prepared for long trips (beyond 200 miles in summer and /maybe/ 300 miles in winter). *If people will drive long distances in summer in a Leaf 2018, their rapid charges won't be "rapid".* That's all.
There needs to be a class action lawsuit against Nissan for making a battery you can'r charge from overheating.
When the problem is fixed you need to do a rematch 😉 the fact the problem has its own banner, Twitter # Rapidgate is farcical to Nissan. Whatever money spent on fancy advertising, launch has been wasted as this has taken the headline. Nissan it’s like close but no-cigar as they say. They now have a car that will always have that Rapidgate round its neck like a lingering bad taste - well done them. They have to absolutely nail it’s bigger brother coming later with thermal management. Great clip, when others would look at the forecast and say “Nah” you all powered on. 👏👏👏 Credit to the EV community.
My Halifax and Paypal apps allow usage of touch sensor :) So index finger (I prefer fingerprint sensor to be on the back) to login and that's it!
And ringGo (parking) doesn't always even log me out! C'mon Ecotricity!!
What really comes over is how far 'affordable ' EV's still have to go to compete with dirty but effective ice's. Great video though.
Ecotricity aren't making most of the business opportunity.. I'd say almost half of my rapids have been free since they started charging fees.. I feel a bit rotten I've had so many free miles
Andrew Winter shhhhusssss
Should not charge more than 70% on a race a charge slows down a lot after 70% 20charges at 15 minutes each is better than14 charges at 30 minutes the heat gets high on charge but the discharge in cold weather under 70% should stay safe
James, what can you say about the battery of your 30Kw? According to some recent studies the degradation is alarmingly fast, like 3x of 24Kw. Some of the reasons being no 80% charging mode and no limits on charging even when overheated. pushevs.com/2018/03/20/nissan-l … batteries/
Thanks for the great video! :)
It's so disappointing with the 40 kWh charging problem. I had big hopes that it would easily win this race when I first got wind of this race. Imagine that, the old 30 kWh car beat the new 40 kWh car! And then the Ionic did even better!
My theory is that Nissan has been over-enthusiastic with protecting the battery from external temperatures so that the insulation starts to work against it when the battery heats up from charging. The heat is not let out of the battery. Otherwise I don't see how it would overheat when it's below freezing outside. Being too cold I could see but not too warm.
Put 50kwh in the ionic and it would be so good! Nissan really dropped the ball on the 40kwh. Hopefully they get back in the game with the 60kwh
An Ioniq with a 50 kWh battery is unbeatable if everybody uses sub-50 kW chargers. Even the current 28 kWh, using 100 kW chargers, can match Model 3 standard and Model S 60.
If the Ioniq would have a 50 kWh battery and use 100 kW chargers, it could keep pace with Model 3 long range, Model S 75 and 85 and Jaguar iPace. I won't say it would win, but it would be tight.
And that's impressive because these cars cost easily 50% or 100% more!
But there is the Kona 64 kWh. A close substitute for the Ioniq 50, except at speeds of 70 mph and above where the Ioniq would show it's efficiency.
Richard Petek I've got to wonder what doubling the weight of the battery would do to efficiency though, and also if they added so much weight to it could they still use the same motor. I still am rooting for it either way but it still hasnt came to my country in the 28kwh pack. If they ever get their battery pack constraints sorted out it would be phenomenal though.
Larry Spiller, for +60% increase you need a bigger motor, but it doesn't have to be 60% bigger, since the rest of the car stays almost the same. And - a bigger battery has lower internal resistance. And a bigger motor doesn't increase the consumption, if you drive at the same speed.
A heavier car has a bigger rolling resistance, this cannot be avoided. But at motorway speeds, drag is the main force, so the increased weight does contribute only a few percent.
So, give this car a 50 kWh battery and it is a Model 3 "killer" - or a better to say, a true competitor.
Up until 40kWh has not been fixed. Anybody who wants to go further faster KEEP SOC high. I mean do not dip below 25%. Charge higher. Most heat is generated at low SOC.