Why Damascus Knives Are So Expensive | So Expensive | Business Insider
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ธ.ค. 2024
- Quality Damascus knives can cost over $5,000. Their signature swirl pattern comes from layering two different alloys and folding them over each other, sometimes resulting in thousands of layers. This can take master smiths a month and that intense labor accounts for much of the final price.
Zack Jonas' Website: jonasblade.com/
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Why Damascus Knives Are So Expensive | So Expensive | Business Insider
For anyone wondering if Damascus is better than normal steel or if it's just a myth: it is not, however it used to be. The ability to make the mix of carbon and iron in steel homogenous has not always been a given. That means that steel from hundreds of years ago was significantly worse than steel today. Damascus was the best way at the time to make the steel more homogenous thus making it superior to other steel of the same time period. Nowadays due to modern machinery steel is much more homogenous eliminating the need for the folding the steel to make damascus
" Damascus was the best way at the time to make the steel more homogenous thus making it superior to other steel of the same time period." You mean in japan was the steel absolute bullshit and they have to do the damascus way. In euope there was a way better steel.
Agreed
Would you say they both have the same "strength"/durability
@dogs oath perfectly made Damascus would probably still end up technically being weaker just my virtue of how great metallurgy has become, regardless we aren't reaching that limit while doing anything these utensils can handle, even in a larger format its pretty rare man out strengths steel before fittings start to go
@@sentient_slab rather that it being Damascus has no effect either way. What affects is the steel, heat treatment, and how it is sharpened
There is a lot of misinformation in this video unfortunately...
For one, damascus/pattern welded steel is no "sharper" "stronger" or "better" than any other monosteel. Zach is likely using 1084 and 15n20 for the damascus produced here. After forge welding these alloys together, the carbon content within the steel as a whole will homogenize during forging and your end steel will perform near identically to 1080 (if anything slightly worse as extended periods of forging can actually cause negative effects in the steel). It will NOT perform any better in ANY metric than any other knife made purely from 1080. 1080 is also considered a relatively low performance steel in the world of knifemaking. That's not to say that it is bad, but there are plenty of other alloys that can perform much better in a kitchen setting (CPM M4, CPM Magnacut, Zmax, CPM S90V, etc). These tool and stainless steels do not forge well due to carbide volume and so are exceedingly difficult to turn into damascus. Most damascus on the market will be some combination of low alloy tool steels or plain carbon steels with one being nickel rich and the other nickel deficient. To reiterate, these low alloy steels are not particularly tough, hard, etc. and perform accordingly.
Not to hate on Zach here as he does make some nice looking knives and has obviously earned his title as a master smith, but many of the things he says metallurgy-wise just aren't true. At around 5:40 he says that he is looking at scale that has flaked off after heat treatment because "the steel has contracted after it hardened, so I know it is hard". Steel goes through a volumetric INCREASE during hardening and actually expands slightly, doesn't contract. And this isn't what causes scale to flake off either, it's the force of the vapor jacket during quench combined with the rapid decrease in temperature (which does involve a shrinking of the steel) that does that. To any smith's that are here learning, flaky or cracked scale after quench does NOT equal a hard blade.
He's also using sharpness as a metric for performance which says very little about the actual quality of his steel and ht. Given the low alloy steels he is using and the HT he is doing using his forge rather than a temperature controlled kiln, his blades likely fall far below the performance of the theoretical best-of-the-best on the market. Again, not to say that they perform badly, but to claim that your knife is the sharpest, strongest, etc around is pretty ridiculous.
Also to everyone in the comments saying that true damascus/wootz steel is a lost art, it's not, we've recreated it exactly. The recipe is not lost we know exactly how it was made and what is in it down to the .000001 atomic %. We've also tested its mechanical properties and it falls far short of any modern monosteel that is produced today.
Anyway, I'll end my rant there, again no disrespect to Zach, he makes beautiful knives, it's just the misinformation and lack of background research by the people who produced this video that bothers me.
Source: I am a professional bladesmith, have made tons of damascus myself, and have a bachelor's and a master's in metallurgical engineering.
sheesh u kinda went off there. thanks for the information!
@spryte4371 Yeah maybe I went a bit overboard haha 😅 just felt the need to clear up some stuff that I thought could be confusing for people trying to learn more about smithing, so I hope it helped!
@@grantsaxman7170 nahh that helped me w a lot of informative knowledge
On what topic did you do your master's? And where did you get your master's?
@latetodagame1892 Material Science Engineering with a focus in metallurgy from University of Michigan. The metallurgy involved in bladesmithing is incredibly complex and interesting which is what drew me to the field in the first place :)
As a hobbyist blacksmith I know just how difficult it is and the amount of strength that goes into making a perfect Damascus knife. For me, it takes days. But I did make one that is used in our kitchen. One of my children is an apprentice blacksmith, and she is miles better than me. However, only highly skilled craftsmen - nowadays not many - will make a fine Damascus knife, and their prices reflect their art and they well deserve the money they receive.
Liar
F
Amen.
Fake news.
@@TheIRSneedsme Liar.
Ever since I watched “Forged in Fire” I’ve greatly appreciated the art of knife making. The precision needed to accomplish this is incredible
Same with me...The only reality show that is real..
@@yeckperez4430yup, you can’t fake talent.
The remaining question is... will it keel?
Goated show
one of the best shows out there. I love watching it
Mad respect to the folks who are keeping the art of bladesmithing alive and well to this day.
UK population drooling over this 🌚
Me with 37 knives and 4 guns on my person. 1776 yeeee yeeee
Why? Do they like knives?
yoo 😂😂
@@Amabadamonly if they in a gang the rest of us use them to keep our forks company
@@Amabadam The 🌎 ❤ knives.
The 🌎 needs knives. Good or not so good.
People are missing the point (pun intended). These aren't made to be just to be practical, this are made to be pretty while maintaining the practicality
You aren't really paying for the product itself, you're paying for the effort to get that cosmetic pattern and the skill of the blacksmith
Yeah there's perfectly good knives well below Damascus's price, but they aren't as pretty as this one
You aren't just buying a product, you're supporting the people behind it too
I wouldn’t mind buying one if the cutting edge holds up
Yes we can say that some people have more appreciation towards how a thing looks. and how much effort it takes to make. After all that is gold too how good it looks and rare.
@@elysium76 You don't need to spend $5k to have a solid knife that holds an edge. Also Damascus knives vs modern steel wont make any practical difference
@@elysium76 most of the time it does hold up very well. I mean no more than a $200 Japanese knife but if you think of it as a functional piece of art it's really not that bad. It's no different than a pretty car
youre also paying for the workshor, and active expenses like propane and materials wich is not cheap.
As other mentioned, these damascus steels are "pattern welded steel" that are simply being called damascus. I suppose it stuck since saying pattern welded steel all the time is tiresome and calling it damascus has better marketing appeal.
You can have "damascus" made of bad steels or good steels. It's just a mixture of two different alloys that corrode differently. Nowadays its only real purpose is aesthetic.
Actual Damascus steel was made through a special forging process. Pattern welded steel keeps the lines of the steel grains continuous. Damascus steel breaks up those lines on the molecular level. It's pretty neat.
@@ae3qe27u3 Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you heat treat the blade you bring the steel up above the lower transformation temperature and reform the grain structure..??
@@ae3qe27u3
Special and special, it's iron ore smelted and then put into a crucible and slowly cooled.
The pattern in real Damascus comes from Alloys in the steel, creating alloy banding, which has gained huge popularity in getting out of modern knives, you see it a lot on Japanese Honyaki and even some solid VG-10 knives, can also be seen in the iron cladding on some knives.
@@Masterfighterx if my memory is correct the ancient Damascus or crucible steel have their pattern for un- even heating reaching the melting point at the same time also the un-equal carbon and other alloying elements. like vanadium. that's the reason why they have pattern and also much superior. than the other steels back in the ancient days. a bit of manganese, vanadium in the steel and much uniform carbon distribution and finer grain. even the does pattern are visible in the refined bloomery steel but the crucible steel is much more superior. most modern steel are Vacuum Induction Melting, to increase it's purity and alloy distribution they also Vacuum Arc Remelting to the steel. the most high end of steels are Powder Metallurgy. if I my memory is correct VG10 is an ingot steel that is also Vacuum Arc Remelted. while ZDP-189 is PM steel that have been re-melted and re-spray into an powder like the other high end steel like CPM-S110V and CPM-REX-121. there grain structure and carbide distribution are so small you need an electron microscope. also insane carbide count.
Wootz steel is another term for it. Only recently recreated by metal working scholar/scientists. Pattern welded is an art, and the similarities in blade appearance is what has led to the misnomer.
I agree with everything Diego said plus I would add it's highly addictive! I remember after buying my first Damascus knife, I was looking for anything to slice. The crazy sharpness made slicing so effortless and fun.
Don't go too far🤨
How about some necks
@@hemlatanewar2117 Your neck. At first.
Any knife can be sharp. As long as you sharpen it. Sharpness is irrelevant when determining the quality of knives
@@ziyangwu2578 A good quality knife can be as good or better than these knifes, the worth in these are more about how they are custom-made, not because they are better in any way than modern knifes... in fact a good quality knife made today is probably as strong or stronger than these, the rest can be done with good sharpening, that you can do at home with some practice.
Amongst all the people I admire, the ones who lives their life and dedicate it to their passion are on top of the list
I'm from Damascus the old city and I'm very impressed by this industry , I wished if someone talk about the history of the Damaskus steel
Isnt it sad that Damascus today has nothing to do with this wonderful masterpiece? Dont you wish that these knives could have been made in Syria?
@@ecoideazventures6417 who said it isnt? the name of this steel forge is the same of the city still.
Is it ok out there dude ?
Cheers from San Diego California
Their origin isn't from Damascus haha like a lot of things the west name things after the closest region from which they've obtained them but that nt necessarily where theyre originally from. Its called wootz too and the origin of that word doesn't lie in Damascus.
@Ecoideaz Ventures this style of damascus steel has nothing to do with Damascus. The original damascus steel is what we call Wootz steel today. This is just pattern welded steel that resembles the eastern made wootz steel that was mostly traded in the city of damascus in the old days. Most of those steel were made in old persia and India and not Syria.
The craftsmanship and design of the knife are just as important as its functionality. You are paying for the intricate details of the handle, the precision of the blade, and the overall aesthetic appeal of the knife. While it is true that any knife can perform the task of cutting, the experience of using a well-crafted knife is unparalleled.
I don't know about that but cost certainly plays a part in how you treat an object, if anyone thinks these patterned knives are better then none patterned its a placebo effect and they probably look after them way better.
$17k to cut a tomato is not “unparalleled”
It's a nice knife. I'll give you that But the engravings give you no tactical advantage
Damascus knives are way overrated
Yes if it's for sentimental value. But generic purpose you can just buy a cheaper knife that will give the same experience as this one. Just cheaper.
It's cool how he has no burns on his arms. Shows how skilled he is.
You don't need to be skilled to not burn yourself, you need to be too clumsy to burn yourself
would be a lot more skilled if he didnt. the truest master would never let that happen
@@Errhhk you read the comment correctly? OP said he has no burns not that he has burns lol
@@doak_ I think OP had a stroke.
@@Errhhk such a bunch of horseshit
As a materials engineer, this was a great watch. I love working with alloys👌 Aluminum lithiums are awesome
What is a materials engineer?
@@franko8572 it’s someone who other works researching new methods of combining metals or other component to create new materials, or in my case I work in a lab testing the mech properties of products we manufacture to make sure they are within specs- testing the tensile, compressive, shear and torsional force of alloy plates, checking the failure impact force, make sure our process produces the correct molecular structure. Etc
@@savageone8931 Oh daaang! Nice. So you’re basically a metals chemist? 🤔
@@franko8572 I’m a chem engineer but I’ve worked a variety of STEM related positions.
The history of Damascus steel is really interesting. The origins of Damascus steel goes back to South India. Making a really good quality steel which didn't rust easily and was strong enough to take the wear and tear of warfare was known to black smiths of these parts of India (even current Shri Lanka). Here steel was and is still called "Ukku". Indian Kings wanted horses for warfare and Arabians had best horses to offer. Indian Kings bought horses and sold swords in exchange. These swords ended up with Turkish Sultanates. The Ukku got distorted in to "Wootz". That's why even now Damascus steel is also called as Wootz steel. Then Crusades began. When the Christian Western powers met with Muslim Turkish armies in battlefield they were really impressed with the quality of the swords. Since they found these steels in Damascus, they just called them Damascus Steel.
Arab derived from Sanskrit word ARAV means 🐎 horse
@@cardrift4515 What is your source for that claim?
The languages come from completely different language families. “Arab” is an endonym probably originating from earlier Semitic languages.
@@Nick-zl5xf it doesn't matter though it comes from Semitic family, almost 90% words have root in Sanskrit
@@cardrift4515 once again, what is your source. There is very little evidence to suggest direct Sanskrit influence on the Arabic language, let alone the “Arav->Arab” connection you suggest
@@cardrift4515 wow I can't believe how easily you chat shit, another typical Indian haha
They're gorgeous knives but they really gassed up this whole "Damascus" thing. In reality, a well sharpened knife between 50-400 dollars will let a skilled chef cut those paper thin slices of anything. And if some idiot wants to snatch it up to open a can, or knocks it onto the floor, it won't cause the same sort of pain. Not to say you shouldn't buy a knife like if this if you really want to, they're just not the atom splitting nanotech monomolecular sci-fi blades they're made out to be.
They also leave out the fact that whats called Damascus steel is made from Wootz steel or crucible steel, what they are showing in this video is a Damascus pattern made using a technique called pattern welding.
I can also cover a space on my wall just as well with crappy art as with good, or drink from a plastic cup rather than handmade ceramic. The point is beyond utility,
@@jimdigriz2923 damascus in todays age is pattern weldes steel. Same as gay no longer meaning happy.
That would be obsidian knifes.
Amen.
Really well done video. I like how you mention, how damascus knives perform similarly (in reality likely worse) to other high end knives. The myth of them being better simply isn't true. What's true about them is that they are real eye catchers and require certain skills to make.
Also this craftmans damascus patterns look stunning.
The magic of damascus isnt the steel, its the fact that they're almost all hand forged and are of a significantly higher quality than a factory blade.
@@sygnusadun4832 yeah, I was also talking about hand forged knives, of which there are damascus knives, 3 layered knives or monosteel knives. the latter 2 tend to be more efficient than damascus in most cases.
@@CRO-Palacinke-D.C Thanks for the feedback, but I must respectfully disagree. What is your basis for that claim? The only discernible difference between a hand forged damascus knife and a hand forged monosteel or san mai knife, from a metallurgical standpoint, is that the edge presents with two distinct alloys rather than one. Technically one alloy is ever so slightly softer than the other, but this is way, way below the level of human perception. And, importantly, *either* alloy is suitable for use in a monosteel or san mai blade on its own.
You should check out Kyle Royer on TH-cam. He's a master bladesmith too and makes absolutely beautiful knives and swords with Damascus steel.
@@zackjonas7775 @Zack Jonas Cool to hear from the blacksmith himself, thanks!
I totally agree with the reasoning you gave.
My "performing worse" comment stems from damascus knives being treated in acid and having an overall well polished surface, which creates more friction when cutting and worse food release than say a hammered finish.
It's overall only a slight disadvantage I'd say. Also I don't own a damacus knife yet (except for the Kai Shun I started on years ago) therefore I can't argue from personal experience.
We are the Damascus kitchen knife factory in China. I agree with the explanation in this video. This is also the production process of our factory to produce Damascus kitchen knives.🥰🥰🥰
One day when I can afford to buy one I'll go crazy on it and I want to tip the Smith what he deserves along with his price for the products. Mad respect to all of them who keep the art going
FYI, damascus does not make you knives sharper, you can get a VERY hard homogeneous steel and make a sharp knife that holds edges as good as damascus. I'm a home chef and i have a few VG10 knives that can cut on touch (sharpen by myself). problem with razor sharp knives isn't with the knives themselves but the user, anything will get blunt if you abuse it, taking good care makes you knives last longer(RIP my old 10$ SUS304 that i had been using for the last decade).
this video is really well done. You avoided a lot of the errors I see these types of videos make about our trade. Great work!
That is NOT a Damascus knife. That is a standard etched pattern welded blade. Damascus blades are NOT pattern welded from two different types of steel and their coloring patterns are much smaller and more chaotic.
I love the Damascus blade. I would love to have one in a special spot in my kitchen. So beautiful. 👍
Ive always loved Damascus and i was so greatful i had to opportunity to get a blade myself. Its a swiss dagger made of Damascus steel and has an ebony handle. I will always treasure it, they are gorgeous blades
Thank you to business insider for putting an old traditional Indian sword making method, in India it is also called Wootz steel and originated in Southern part of India
Damascus Steel is from Damascus, Syria. Not India
@seanskywalka5172 it originated in India. Better read history.
@seanskywalka5172 haha😂😂 go and read history it should be called indian steel .
Show bobs
this is one of the best channel on youtube, real information i love it
I had a dream that I didn’t have a knife when I needed one. It was a very specific looking knife that I was missing. Two days later, I was gifted a Damascus knife at the beach by a friend. It was the same shape as in my dream.
Before that, I already had a profound appreciation for the craftsmanship that went into Damascus blades.
That was an awesome dream come true. I always wanted a Damascus knife ❤️✨
2 days? What
@@Entrejai lol right, I have no idea how or why. I have really strange dreams 🤷♀
Amen.
❤
paying for not just the work n the time put in to produce the outcome, but their experience n knowledge that made it possible to work the way they do to produce the outcome is the key.
That shot of him staring into the forge with the snow in the back goes so hard 🔥🔥🔥
Does the knife lose it sharpness? How long is its sharpness last considering its price?
Any knife can lose it's edge. Typically knives like the one in the video have a high hardness scale, and will definitely last longer than a cheaper knife. But there are also really good knives out there that are affordable.
It will be no sharper than a normal chefs knife and it will lose its sharpness as a normal knife during use. It is the craftmanship, amount of labour and looks that make these knives expensive. It is not "magic steel".
It should never lose sharpness at this price
@@Rakadis somewhat misleading. there definitely are advantages to hand forged knives atrributed to high compression while forging while also making different grinds possible. yes, damascus isn't this mythological magic steel, but when only used for a damascus cladding with another core steel (think SG2, aogami super , etc.) it definitely has a better edge retention and better maximum sharpness than an industrial knife with a rockwell hardness of 55.
still; even the best knives can dull quite fast (let's say 6 months for home cooks for it to become well noticably less sharp). that's why it's a good thing to learn to hand sharpen if you like using sharp knives.
@@Rakadis Not entirely true.... Custom knives made of Damasteel (pattern welded steel) or monosteel (singular alloy steels) can be heat treated better than production knives, we also tend to use better steel, almost always better steel than high production knives.
Pretty sure it is sharp, but I just love the artistic pattern. The knives are a work of art.
Damascus is just cosmetic. Most knives can be sharpened and be great to use.
the pure stupidity of that comment.. yikes
The real receipe for the OG legendary Damascus steel was lost in history....
@@InquisitiveBaldMan why any damasus knives today are just visual art peices.
@@InquisitiveBaldMan Not lost Britain made it extinct.
@@artimuos903 Gonna cry?
I learned a lot about making knives by watching "Forged in Fire". I absolutely love these types of shows that involve either cooking or building something (American Chopper, Monster Garage, etc.). Thanks for the education.
Thank forged in fire for getting people to appreciate Damascus knives.
In modern steels, ''damascus'' is purely cosmetic. You Layered steel back in the day to remove impurities, and that was still not called damascus steel.
Actual Damascus steel looks more like the knives you see (Many from Japan nowadays) with no layers but there is alloy banding on the single piece of steel, which can also occur in a 3 layered knife, which looks way cooler than pretty much any pattern welded (''damascus'') knife.
Yeah my next knife will be Japanese, but my German and American knives are just as good imo
Amen.
just as a very important distinction, this is NOT damascus steel, this is forge-welded steel. damascus steel is a crucible steel. this is forge-welded steel that emulates the pattern of damascus steel. the type of steel is called "watered steel" that results in the pattern of different alloys/carbon concentrations. damascus is the original, and is a crucible steel. fold-forged steel is another type of watered steel, but it is NOT damascus steel.
Semantics. Words evolve over time and Damascus has become a term used to describe pattern-welded steel.
@@keeferChiefer there is already a term for it, watered steel. calling it damascus steel is incorrect. damascus steel is metal alloy using the wootz method. pattern welded steel to create watered steel is a japanese method. dont know if you are aware, but there is a huge difference in methods and even distance between the origin of the methods, and they are nowhere close except for the end-result. probably because they are like 20,000 miles away from each other. you can be as wrong as you want because you do not care about being accurate, you just dont get to complain when someone points out that it is incorrect. at least while being intellectually honest. calling pattern welded, or more accurately, fold-forged steel damascus steel is being incredibly intellectually dishonest.
@@keeferChiefer the fact you do not see the problem with this, is a huge problem. it is not semantics, it is purposeful perversion of the word. instead of using the correct word, purposefully using the incorrect word to make it seem something it is not. that is a problem. if you cannot understand why, then you have deeper issues with not understanding language and linguistics.
The most impressive thing about this dude is that he was able to become a master heat treating with a forge.
i got a set of 6 of these beautiful blades thrown in when i purchased a belly blaster on a late night telemarketing show. believe me once you use them nothing else feels the same
Damascus is so beautiful on blades 😊
Absolutely beautiful pieces of art! I would cherish owning a blade of his, but sadly…not an option right now. I hope some day. They are truly works of art! Thank you for sharing this with us!❤
❤
Yea, it used to be superior back in the olden times, but in today times, a good quality regular steel knife made in a high end factory is just about perfect for any kitchen.
Still tho, looks beautiful. If money was not an issue, I'd have it in my house.
y'all should do a profile on Kyle Royer if you want to see a prodigious master bladesmith at work, and I say that in no way to diminish the work of Zach Jonas. . . but Kyle's work is simply exemplary.
The knife from this video look ugly, his pattern knife look amateur compare to kyle
@@heydaddy2471 I mean, look. I may agree with that. . . but I'm also not really wanting to tear down smiths who are way, way, way, way better at working metal than I am. I think Zach makes pretty af and nice knifes. I think kyle is. . . .um, a lot better at it. But both are really good. Royer just takes it to another level.
It's incredible the appreciation you'll have for something with a little investigating.
Thank you.
You should cover about Karambits and Butterfly Knives next time 😆 includimg their floats
A master blade smith can make any high carbon steel knife razor sharp. Also there is a small disclaimer that needs to be addressed: this is not true Damascus steel. Damascus steel was made from crucible steel from the Middle East and got its name from the city of Damascus in modern day Syria. The type of steel this video is showing is actually pattern welded steel which has been around for centuries. True Damascus steel has not been successfully made for a few centuries due to the Industrial Revolution began in Europe, and its pattern was based mostly on impurities in the steel such as vanadium and through heat treating and tedious thermal cycling which was only discovered only a couple of decades ago. I personally like both of these steels especially pattern welded steel but a lot of people don’t know the difference between them and it irks me that the trade name misleads people.
Amen.
India, not the Middle East
$5,000 knife that'll be sharpened on a $10 knife stone
good Japanese wet stones are also very expensive :D
To cut the worst quality tomato you could ever buy.
@@d0nnerknispel64 yes they really are
I don't think random people cooking at home would buy this but alright.
@@smolbean2263 these are Damascus steel swords and if they are real then it would need a wet stone to sharpen every once in a while not all blade or swords can hold an edge forever
Been seeing all these praises of Damascus steel knives. Back in the day remember warnings not to fire modern high power ammo in Damascus steel firearms. How is it we are suddenly in love with Damascus steel???
Damascus knives and the sound of handpan. Perfection ❤
Thanks to HISTORY TV18's Forged in Fire, i was able to understand every technical term used here.....
This is pattern welded not actual damascus steel. Because there is no such thing as "damascus" steel. Damascus was a hub for sword production, using sourced Wootz ingots from India. We do not know if forge welding techniques used today were the same, which created the "damacened" properties back in the day. Closest modern approximation is the katana, using tamahagane steel. Where different parts of the same ingot are combined with forge welding, layering to form the desired properties of the finished sword.
Definitions change pal. stop holding on to definityions from over 200 years ago.
@@notabrit3025 So we should forget history and make up our own or follow misinformation. Monkey logic.
do you call it velcro or do you call it hook and loop, kleenex or facial tissue , tupperware or plastic storage boxes
Amen.
You can get cheap Damascus knives made in the same pattern welded and twisted sort of styles as this for as little as 20$. Damascus is not at all important to determine if a knife is good or bad quality and is purely aesthetic.
Those aren’t true Damascus blades tho
@@b_bogg Neither is the one featured in this video.
apparently you know very little about what your'e talking about. Additionally a $20 knife will come from a part of the world where the quality of labor laws is nearly non existent and the raw materials are impure.
@@monolithknives931 Man there's about 5,000 amateur knifemakers trying to get their material costs back on Etsy right now, right here in the US.
@@b_bogg Lol Damascus isn't magic. A knife made out of CPM S110V (a modern "super-steel") isn't _that much better_ than a $40 Cisco 8" Classic
Finally a solution to my problem that I can never get my tomato slices thin enough.
let me just take some confusion out of you, which i used to be confused about.
a. any knife can be sharp enough to do the see through vegetable cut shots seen in this video. the difference is how long a knife can hold its sharpness.
b. damascus knife making technique used to be the best way to get a mixed steel knife. now it's possible for any knife, even without the swirls. because technology.
c. you can get one for the novelty of it. but a victorinox will serve you much better and is usually way cheaper. it's what professional kitchens use.
In short:
They are both aesthetically magnificent and realisticly practical
They are a pain to work with, it's like the blacksmith need to roll the dice a thousand times and they need to roll a perfect 6 every-single-time.
modern pattern welded Damascus Steel is not the same as historic Woots (Crucible steel) Damascus.
And the reality is that modern pattern welded steel is simply for decretive purposes.
Wonderful video! The patterns on that knife are amazing! It's a work of art as much as a tool!
The "Forged in Fire" show frequently has guests make damascus blades. It's cool to see it done when it's not rushed and without real time to plan.
From a Damascene guy, this is a very good video!
I work in aerospace and specifically the heat treatment department. I started in ‘06 and I’m still there today as the department lead.
Granted, we work with aluminum and not steel so I’m sure there’s differences I’m not aware of.
Heat treating is very specific. A certain temperature with a very tight tolerance. Obviously this guy is very skilled and I guess has developed the ability to “eye ball” his treatment process.
From the way it was shown he has no temperature gauges and the knife wasn’t being evenly and precisely heated which is essential for the heat treatment of aluminum anyways.
Are there many differences in the process between steel and aluminum? Obviously heat is a big difference! But the process overall how he performed it I’m just curious as to how it’s effective with the lack of precision.
I've been making knives full time for about 6 years now, you can sort-of eyeball a simple carbon steel in the 800-850C range by colour, but you are absolutely better off using at least a thermocouple, digital thermometer and more controlled kiln to get the exact manufacturers specs and that's the same with the tempering process. When you get into high alloy tool steels and stainless, its all done in an oxygen deprived environment to avoid decarburisation of the steel's outer surface, so its typically done with a gas injection into the kiln or a stainless foil packet.
That's a whole other bundle of temperatures which typically start in the 950C all the way through to 1200C depending on the alloy you're working with and they can sometimes have very high tempering ranges of sometimes 350-500C to knock the hardness down. You won't be doing it with an eyeball, the OHS side of me that used to work in engineering means I will rouse on people looking at high infrared emitters and bright light sources without eye protection :)
What got missed though in this video is the blade geometry, he has some superbly dialed in kitchen knives there which are wafer thin, super sharp and even if they're a bit dull after a days work they're still going to cut very well. That said, if you're a bloke looking for a good knife, get something in a modern stainless with a lot of vanadium and chromium in it and you're probably well on the way to a knife you only have to sharpen maybe once a month of hard, every day use. But how it cuts- still all about that fine geometry of knife behind the cutting edge
I'm not a blacksmith, but my father and grandfather were so a little of the knowledge has found its way into my brain. With steel you can get a decent estimate on the temperature by the color of the hot steel. These blacksmiths can get away with "eyeballing" because the scale that they are working at is fairly small. As the work increases in size it gets much harder to do that and have the work survive the process. Knives, swords, and tools are at a size that doing it this way is doable, but even then it is a gamble.
I think I have seen videos of some blacksmiths actually using gauges to get more accurate results. But those things are expensive and smiths don't really need that level of precision typically. They can if they want, but a lot of times the extra precision is just kind of wasted. I am fairly certain however that in an industrial setting it is much more important for accuracy to maintain a consistent product. At the end of the day the effectiveness doesn't need to be super accurate, it IS only a knife. Even with the price tag.
I know nothing about how heat treating aluminum works however so can't say anything on how it compares unfortunately.
@@krissteel4074 thank you for the detailed response! I know nothing about tempering of steel! We use to work with aluminum and titanium when I first started there but by ‘07-‘08 we were working exclusively with aluminum so I don’t really remember the process for titanium!
I knew steel was much higher temps but that was about it! I don’t even know the alloy types for steel 🤷🏻♂️
@@VeshAeryn I appreciate you responding! We work exclusively with aluminum so I don’t know anything when it comes to steel aside from it tempers at much higher temps than aluminum.
Obviously working in aviation we have very specific requirements. Our tolerance is +\- 10 degrees on the majority of our parts. Depending on the alloy we mainly use 3 temperature sets 870F, 920F, 1000F but that’s the highest!
I started in March ‘06 when I was just 18 years old! I had taken my GED test in Dec ‘05 and in Feb ‘06 I got my results and certificate! My uncle worked at this plant and said if I passed he would help me get a job there. Once I passed and filled out my application for two weeks he kept pestering HR until they finally brought me in for an interview. I had 6 different interviews! The plant manager showed me nearly every department and supervisor. After the last one I asked what was going on? He finally said “Well none of the supervisors want you just because your so young and inexperienced”. He said there’s one more department that he was overseeing because they didn’t have a supervisor, he said it’s called Heat Treat. He asked if I was interested and I was like I just want a job idc where! he showed me around and offered me the position!
The first month tho I didn’t even work in heat treat, I started during a stretch where they were getting recertification and Boeing was doing an audit. They didn’t want me messing it up she they stuck me in shipping for the first month.
I’ve survived 4 separate lay offs over the years! Many many supervisors and managers haha. In 2014 I accepted the lead position. In 2019 our supervisor was fired so I was hopeful I would get it! I did my interview but unfortunately they decided not to hire anyone. They had the supervisor of another department run his and my department. Since then tho I essentially I am the supervisor without the title or salary 😒. He has passed a lot of the responsibilities off too me which I think will work in my favor when the time comes to fill that role. I’ll be able to show I’ve been doing these responsibilities and am prepared.
They’ve don’t these multiple times in other departments having 1 supervisor oversee multiple departments and it never lasts. It’s been 3 years and he’s really burnt out! It’s alot if work so I’m hoping buy the end of this year I’ll be able to take over the position permanently
@@chriscampbell3417 If you want a good guide to the heat treatment of steel I'd recommend a book called Knife Engineering by Larrin Thomas. Its not too heavy in terms of science but there's enough science to get you started. He also has a website called Knifesteelnerds and a youtube channel by the same name.
I thank him for using a more traditional approach to the Hada technique, in witch he actually folds the steel and doesn't cut and restack.
the thing is for a low layer knife like that it is possible but when i am already days into the damascus forging i don't take any risks and i grind and stack. thats the reason that most will just grind and stack
Me remembering that these damascus knives aren't even made by real DAMASCUS steel.
Zach is an artist. Tremendous respect.
If it cuts through a lemon or tomato , you know it's PRICELESS
Wow, he puts so much effort in his work.
With passion!
As a chef, I can tell you not to be "scared" because the price, once you buy one, it will last you a LITERAL life time if treated properally. Had a colleague whos knife was older then me, and I am 23.
I have german chef knife I inherited from my mother, and she inherited it from her mother. So yeah. slightly longer that 23 years. Needs sharpening.
up to $5,000? NAH. a $200 japanese or german knife is way better value and will last just as long with proper care. damascus knives are very overrated and very overpriced.
This is absolute horseshit. What we call Damascus steel now and the historical term are different. The modern version is what is described here. It does not produce a superior blade. The best it can do is almost as good as a mono steel or San mai steel blade. The problem with Damascus is, every single weld is a potential point of failure, and some faults are undetectable. If you start with a bar of mono steel and grind it to shape before heat treating, you can know that it is utterly free of structural flaws. That is not possible with Damascus. Damascus requires forging, with always risks introducing stress flaws. Historical Damascus was just steel that came from the region of Damascus, and they likely had access to a source of iron with additional elements that produced good steel for swords. The properties of steel can vary considerably based on the specific alloy.
Damascus blades were first manufactured in the Near East from ingots of wootz steel that were imported from Southern India (present day Tamil Nadu and Kerala). The Arabs introduced the wootz steel to Damascus, where a weapons industry thrived.
Are they? My friends have Damascus ranging from $9-55.
You can get really cheap ones nowadays.
It's only that expensive from a master blacksmith.
If you get them from random blacksmiths in China and Vietnam it's pretty cheap.
And also super sharp.
With modern "Damascus" metal, there's basically no actual benefit over regular old steel knives, they mostly just look better. Like a 1000 years ago Damascus steel knives and swords were legitimately stronger and much more hard to produce than regular metal items, and they were expensive because of their rarity, actual strength properties, significant difficulty in manufacturing versus regular steel, and of course the intricate design patterns. These days "damascus" is pretty much entirely cosmetic term, and the price is mostly depended on design, because the diffuculty of manufacturing entirely depends on design required. Modern damascus knifes aren't actually that much stronger, sharper, or more durable than regular modern steel. They do have some advantages over regular steel, but 99% of Damascus steel items is in the looks, not function.
"while high end mono steel knives may perform similarly".... This is the key point. Everything that follows this phrase is just about how it looks and how it's made. Very symbolic of the current hipster/artisan fad
I’d accidentally disembowel myself the first time I used it! 😧
🤣😂
i envy people that can create wonders with their hands...it's really important to have a skill
Where would I be able to buy the ones that failed to pass these tests?
Its actually expensive because the makers first have to unlock colors, then gold, then platinum, and find a map to take longshots before damascus becomes available.
Metallurgy student here: can confirm 100% facts
Imagine the pain when u drop this knife on the floor on its sharp end
thing about most high end knives is they tend to be really brittle. if they fall on any side chances are they just break.
First of all it's a pattern welded steel knife as we lost the means to make Damascus steel which comes from wootz iron which is was crucible iron that was found in India. Second it's expensive because a pattern welded steel is harder to make and require ample knowledge of what steels would work well together and years of practice to learn to achive the pattern achive the pattern your want consistently. Lastly pattern welded steel are both of similar quality to other steel knifes the only difference the pattern that comes from the diffrent carbon Contents from the steels used and the user of the knife. There are better quality steel outside of pattern welded for sure but the whole idea that pattern welded steel is better is a myth that was propagated by the use of actual Damascus steel blades which where again is just here say.
Its so great that he's working on that masterpiece with that weather.
1:11
Well great, I fell in love with a knife
This is really pattern welded steel, true Damascus steel is made using Wootz steel from India
Can we have more of these? I don't mean the knife but rather something unique and skillful instead of 'these people are paid almost nothing for a dangerous job that goes through 50 middlemen to increase the price' or 'this family has been producing this item by hand for generations - despite there are modern techniques that make an objectively better product'
Welcome to the world, everything is bullshit. These knives are cool but have 0 purpose in the world. Let's get rid of the middle men and maybe the prices will reflect reality for once in the last 700 years
Amen.
But there are modern techniques to make better knives.
@@Popikawaii there may be but at least this is interesting. Instead of soot based foot stomped ink (where the only 'skill' is making sure to not automate anything) or poor 'peasant' works insane hours then sell the item for pennies to a person who sells it to another person to another and another before it is sold for $50 a pound despite nothing was done besides it moved hands
The problem with knifes is that the most people are not even able to sharp them.
Everything will be fine and you will shine like a rising star with great success and wealth
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Funny stuff $7000😂
youre braindead if you think its not worth it.
I would love to own one.
Having a high quality knife is worth every dollar you are willing to spend on it. When you handle and use them, they are an extension of your soul and skill.
This isn't really Damascus. It's called PATTERN WELDED! Damascus looks similar but it's unfair to call it actual Damascus. I'd love this channel to cover woots Damascus tho!!!!
Pattern steel is made with layers of steel. Damascus steel is made in a crucible, each piece of Damascus steel has its own unique pattern that develops on its own (the blacksmith doesn't decide the pattern)
That's just plain wrong.
@@Tvngsten Brazil has tungsten.
Fake news.
@@Tvngsten Fake news.
The craftsmanship is world class.
I work in a restaurant and I saw one of my coworkers who works in the kitchen owns a damascus knife, that was the first time I ever saw one before but now I understand why he owns it definitely seems like a great knife to own especially in the culinary field
1st
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@@yassirerrhout4450 Fake news.
Very important. I will think about it on my throne (🚽).
@@yassirerrhout4450 Spam can kill you. Not good food.
to put it simply, buying a damascus knife is like buying a custom made artful knife, it's about as practical as a normal chef knife but with cool looking patterns to make it look fancy
But wait!..if you call now we'll double your order!😂
No it's nopt. That is a Pattern Welded Knife. Any knife, being more dense than a tomato, can be sharpened and cut like this, at least once.
Incredible, didn't even know about these before.
My goal has been for years to replace all my knifes with damasks blades. I have one so far and it cuts like Diego said, it’s an experience for any professional chef or home chef. It was a pretty penny to buy. ❤❤❤
does it stay sharp? if not could could explain how you maintain it's original sharpness?
I buy damascus knives for dirt cheap at flea markets and garage sales. At first it may be difficult to learn how to identify and restore the knives, but the end result is so much better than paying the retail price of one of the knives. I'd recommend doing it if you wanna save money
You can also buy cheap damascus knives from online sellers, but the quality of craftsmansip is poor at times and its quite easy for them to lie about the knife actually being damacus
Great video, thanks!
And that is some beautiful work Zach, thanks for sharing!!
I have a quite decently expensive sashimi Japanese knife. Once, while in the top floor restaurant at the SHARD London, I left it in the fish section to run to the toilet and relax for 2 minutes.. I come back to my horror.... I found this butch lady half way down a box of live lobsters using my knife to break their shells.... omg I just lost it...