I am going through IAM training at the moment and it's really enjoyable. The observer with the flip up helmet and the sunglasses goes against the grain somewhat. He might be a very experienced rider but he comes across as a right arrogant sod. Well done for not flattening him !
Enjoying this series, makes sense to be taught the processes to work through and not focus on the outcome, as the correct application of the process will naturally deliver the wanted outcome.
Hi John I agree, but I found I benefitted from the different training styles of all the observers. John is very knowledgable and knows his stuff, and I learned a huge amount from him. Thanks for your feedback!
@@Back2TheBike I´ve been re-watching this series of videos and I think that some comments have been a bit harsh on John. As you say, instructors have different styles, and everything he said was on point imo..... Fascinating videos....Thanks!!
Yes, lots of advice, different styles and differing focus from the 5 observers so far. All good stuff. On this session there was so much I had to go through the video and my notes many times. Unfortunately, the snow has stopped me getting out to practice it!
Thanks for the video! I have been on "real" Triumphs for many years, have had a two years break and now about to get back on a 2001 Triumph T100. I have spent my career instructing and mostly in uniform. I would like to make a few comments if I can; the shades - they may be light reactive, I am sure no bad manners meant, whatever feels comfy works well. Two instructors; a positive slant is that you do not get a one-sided critique. Its routine to allow ONE person to lead, with the other instructor adding supporting comment and maybe filling in any gaps. I thought they worked well on that. We can ALL learn - no matter how many miles you have ridden, it may not improve your road craft. We need to keep our minds open to advice and be big enough to accept those well meaning suggestions. What have I learned? Road positioning, good observation, early preparation for changing road position, right speed for the conditions, self-assessment throughout the ride, anticipation of other vehicles behaviour and being prepared for all eventualities, plus awareness of the dangers behind .. Nobody likes being told what to do, but these guys do it well and everything they said makes sense. If we can weave all that into our riding then we will have a much safer and more enjoyable ride. Well done, Liam
Hi Liam, and welcome to B2TB. Always good to hear from those who've served. I agree with your take, i got a lot from this session. It's one of 12 or so in the IAM boxed set, capped off by the exam. Coming back to a bike after nearly 40 years I felt the best 'mod' I could invest in was the training and it has been a good decision. My mentor seaflyfisher runs his own channel and his input has been brilliant after a life as a pro.
@@Back2TheBike Business recovery has taken up all my time lately, but now back out on a 1973 T140v as its a bike that I have been "as one" with for many years. Still absorbing all your observations and advice, really top class. I am relocating back to Norwich very soon and will be joining the good people down there on the NAM - Norfolk Advanced Motorcyclists. You have been through a few twists and turns that are not road related, so I wish you the very best of health and a huge thanks again for your inspiring videos, Liam
Whilst I agree with some of the views held here by the instructors, I don't believe that if you don't abide by them that you would necessarily be a worse rider or in more danger, nor be capable of making progress safely. Sometimes there is more than one position in the road that is perfectly fine to adopt in my view, and just because there is opportunity to do so doesn't mean you have to.
It's all on a sliding scale, you sacrifice position for safety, so I always simply think of "halving the danger", like a "binary chop", so get in the middle of the hazards to reduce both as much as possible (obvs speed plays a part there too, too much danger and you may ultimately come to a stop for example). There can be no hard and fast rule as situations / conditions change constantly, just keep the TUG carousel spinning, when it stops spinning can be the problem (freezing)! LOL! ;-)
Hello again matey. Tend to agree with the other comments here that this one has knocked you back a bit. That happened to me too, and left me doubting whether I'd EVER really get there. I asked for a break on one session, everything felt wrong and I just wasn't dialled in, and grabbed an impromptu coffee with the observer. We had a chat, he reassured me that this does happen, and off we went again for a better second half. I think John was a bit hard on you here and there and maybe a bit over-prescriptive on things that could come later, wouldn't argue with anything he said though.On positioning, I really do not like riding in the centre position because it sticks the bike right on that couple of feet of tarmac that has all the grit, glass, nails, oil, etc that can lessen grip or cause punctures. I also learned that sooner or later you'll miss the cues that the car in front has slowed and need to brake hard. Being dead centre means you could be doing this on the aforementioned crap; being in position one or three also gives you a better option to divert around the stopped or slow car as a last resort (don't ask how I know this....). I know IAM is all about not getting into trouble, rather than getting out of it, but it happens.Keep going, practice is all, because things do move from conscious competence to unconscious competence. You'll get there, it isn't a race, and sometimes taking more time gives a more rounded learning experience.Hope that helps.
Kevin B As always Kevin tour input is much appreciated. To be honest all of the observes so far have had a lot of points to make. I put up a little more of the chat on this film as I thought the dialogue was useful and it did help me. I like your point about positioning, as you say sooner or later we'll all find trouble so what you say makes sense. Fascinating too to hear about your 'coffee' session. This 'overload' tends to hit me when I've Ben riding for too long without a break, so it's vital to know when one has hit the 'wall' - metaphorically speaking!
I certainly learnt a few things on that one, especially the STOP sign, road clear I would of gone, after driving buses, and had it drummed into me, Mirrors, Mirrors, Mirrors. I use mine a lot more in the car.
Another great learning session, you are doing very well with taking it all in. There will be a point when everything will just click & it will become second nature. However every ride is a new experience. Keep up the good work 👍
Just going through your back log of IAM training, having past my full bike test only last year, most of the questions were exactly the same as i asked, also was doing the same mistakes, lol, just looked up my local group and contacted them to start the next part of motorcycling journey, great uploads, cheers for sharing
@@Back2TheBike watching your films has given me a few questions about speed and grey area, when overtaking a vehicle , where do you stand with going above speed limit while overtaking to get clear and back onto your side, heard conflicting answers, whats your take of it, cheers
@@BeardedBiker6611 First off I'd advise watching SeaFlyFisher (ex pro) channel, his Masterclass series IMHO are the best you'll find on YT. His later films get into the technicalities of a safe and effective overtake. When I did my BikeSafe day with Leics police this year they took the pragmatic view that you need to get past quickly and safely, even if that meant going (briefly and within reason) over the limit. Having said that, they also said if you get zapped by a camera it's a fair cop, so to speak. The more I work at overtakes though, the more I realise even if you only have 5-10mph to play with that's enough to get past safely.
@@BeardedBiker6611 - Hi Andy - I have to agree with Neil here - I am truly magnificent - but going back to your overtaking question, if you're on test or doing an observed ride I would suggest that you ask your observer/examiner what they're happy with - most will probably want you to comply with the limit so good planning, location and assessment of the subject vehicle is essential - when I'm riding for myself, safety is the prime consideration and I want to be on the offside lane for as short a time as possible - no-one is going to grumble too much over a few miles an hour momentarily and you can still "get it done" quickly and without upsetting anyone if your choices of location, positioning and execution are done right - overtaking is like use of the gearbox - it's one of those things that can make or break your riding and requires continual planning and observation on your part to make sure that you create the opportunity rather than sitting back waiting for one to drop into your lap - personally I like to try and enhance our reputation and there's a huge difference between a properly planned and smoothly executed overtake and dialling in nine grand and going for it six inches away from their door - many riders and drivers are quite capable of driving fast until it comes to having to make the decision to overtake and very often they end up trailing along behind a slower vehicle and/or pushing a dodgy overtake out of frustration through not knowing how to plan them properly - I saw that you've just jumped across to my channel and you'll find a fair bit on OT on there - the first eleven videos are aimed at a "stay alive" style of riding and after that was when I met Neil and kicked things up a notch to get him up to test standard - when you plan, you need to be in the right place, at the right speed and with the right gear engaged as you assess the other vehicle and move up from a following to an overtaking position at every likely overtaking opportunity - whilst you're doing it start the sequence of always making sure that you clear any possibility of nearside danger first - this view is the most important - you don't want to be overtaking perfectly to be confronted by someone head on that's come out of a nearside junction that you didn't see or have the vehicle you're overtaking pull out round that broken down vehicle or cyclist that you missed - once you've cleared the nearside you can position to clear the offside view and if it's clear and your planning is good - all you need to do is accelerate past, positioning yourself in the safest place on the road before returning to the nearside lane and matching your speed to any traffic ahead of you - I did one for Neil (19) that's mostly overtaking but you'll find some more scattered through the others too - stay safe - Dale
Hepcat Harley Indeed, I share your pain. I still feel like the new kid at school who gets his cap nicked on the first day. Trying to stay upright and concentrate. Taken a quick look at your stuff. Very funny.
I've ridden for 45 years, passed my millionth mile a couple of years ago, and find the IAM guys often well meaning but incapable of riding genuinely quickly and also regularly petty and pedantic who rarely have any idea of everyday, all year, all weather riding.
Steve Parry Hi Steve, that's a lot of miles. Must be honest they've been really helpful to me. I'd been off the bike since 1980 and needed a framework to get me started again. The Northants guys are capable of riding quickly if they choose, but their objective is get you to test standard. They emphasise the system is there to applied as you need, not a rigid approach.
Interesting vid. I think both observers were good but it is tricky if there are 2 of them, because they are both watching each other. You also come across as being quite switched on and with a cam, they could feel on edge on what they say. I’d say 2 things - you should try and have a good 1 to 1 with John, with no camera, have a coffee and chill a bit. On your riding - I’d use your gears more, the BM’s have awesome torque
An interesting vid this one, lots of feedback. I am presuming you have only shown the negative criticism, and not the positive as am sure you did some stuff right. I agree the gents glasses may have been light reactive however them mixed with his mannerisms and negative critique making it quite an uncomfortable debrief. Am sure he was a pleasant lad and very knowledgeable however he could learn stuff from this content himself.
I’m just starting on this journey and so am watching this excellent video series. Thank you! This one was a tough one to watch, I could feel your confidence ebbing away. Each instructor really does bring different ideas and thoughts..... some great tips but have to say, I like Dave though 😉
Some IAM groups will assign an observer who stays with all the way through. Northants spread the love around so you dont become a clone of any one person and trust you to take from each what you think is appropriate. Every one of these guys helped me and their differing styles made me think.
That makes a lot of sense. Just going onto #7 vid now. How far have you progressed to date? Have you an end goal or is it to be the best and safest ride you can be? Look up BloodBikesEast, that’s my goal for now. Thanks again for the super content taking us on this journey with you! It really is refreshingly honest.
@@dargar7325 Certainly a few ups and downs along the way, all part of learning. You can follow the whole story on the channel so I won't spoil any surprises!
I was considering this course as triumph are offering £40 discount for owners but having watched a few of these videos I'm not so confident I would have the patience to deal with the more "subjective elements" and almost complete opinions of other riders. Case in point, on your second feedback session, the chap with the beard reckons that to avoid doing the "engine shuffle" as they called it, you should hold your front brake at the lights and have your left foot up on the gear shift ready... Now I remember being told explicitly by 2 different qualified motorbike coppers (bike safe course) and 2 different qualified instructors (my DAS courses) that you should always have your foot on the rear brake and not use the front in case you're rear ended by a car (or bike) which will cause your bike to want to tip you straight over the handlebars due to the front wheel being locked by your brake as opposed to skidding the rear. Of course depending on how bad & fast the rear end smash is, neither brake may save you but if it is a slow one then I would rather do the "engine shuffle" than wind up head butting my front tire as I somersault off the bike forwards, if hit from behind. On that basis me and the bearded chap would have to agree to disagree on that point but due to the fact that he has more shiny badges than me I'm guessing my understanding of the correct approach would be considered wrong? That would irritate me. You'd definitely need to have a glass half full approach to this and try to have a good filter for things that you don't agree with and take away the best points that make perfect common sense and that you completely agree with.
Interesting point Nic, and I've heard both sides argued here, left or right foot down, both with their own merits. I'm a right foot down man now. Our IAM chaps do sometimes vary on opinions, but I was advised its my choice what I take on board. After 9 sessions, and considerable input from my mentor, an ex-pro, I reckon 95%+ is probably agreed by everyone, but there will always be a few things that are open to debate. I think £100 for an IAM course is the best safety mod you can make to your bike, but we always have the final decision what we take on board. I suggest you subscribe to the SeaFlyFisher channel and look at his MasterClass series too.
It's the Hendon Shuffle,which was taught to the Police motorcyclists many years ago,it's best not mentioning it to Iam types it can start a two hour debate
The instructor said the preferred position behind a car is dead center. I started riding bikes in 1983 and the rule then was to ride either to the left or right of the lane but not in the center. The reasoning was the center is where engine oil, transmission fluid, and other leakage would accumulate. Now, that may have been because cars were crap in the 80’s, but isn’t that a consideration?
I suspect he would say 'it depends'! I got the impression the nominal position is just to right of centre in most situations, but factoring in oncoming traffic, junctions, and as you say the sump line thinking.
Jack1 This used to be called "the sump line" for the very reasons that you point out. However as you also said about the quality of cars back then compared to todays quality, this is not the case as much. Quite often you will find oil either side of the centre (sump line) so it is realy a case of observing the serface and going from there 👍
Good video B2TB. Once again, a lot more info for you to process. Will you be keeping the same observer throughout the Advanced Rider course or changing each time? My local group keep the same observer to trainee each time (where possible) which I think is a great idea as I imagine every observer reaches the goal (successfully getting you up to standard) in a different way and have different teaching styles which to me could get confusing. My local group cancelled the ride today due to this pesky weather we're having currently, although it is for the best to be honest.
I see a repeating theme with a lot of these 'Obervers' in that it's their school of riding with no reference to Roadcraft to back up what they 'preach'. Way too much criticism for one observed ride, very little praise or questioning what your thoughts were. The guy with the glasses is on a huge ego trip and is coming across as a wanna be copper (again a common theme with a lot of these observers) The bearded guy is not contributing at all and should just stand back. Not a great advert for IAM coaching.
Wow if this was my first introduction to IAM it would certainly be my last, Mechanical Sympathy!! Sat Nag! If I’m not using my maps on my my Sat NAV then I’m using it for my speed control, why, well it’s precise my clock isn’t, and I’d never talk to someone with my sunglasses on in a teaching environment, how rude. Fortunately I’ve watched all the others, bring back Dave
Very interesting set of videos. Good work. I hope the comments have been seen by the observers who were trying to assist you. I especially liked the Sat Nav as a speed reference comment and the ones around wannabe coppers, not using Road Craft and Observers not being able to ride fast? The Sat Nav is not your legal reference for speed. It is is not consistently more accurate either. Keep with the Speedo. But 73 mph on your speedo is more likely to be 70 than an actual 70 mph reading - they are +0, minus x% in reading. I have had mine calibrated and it definitely reads "under" by a few mph. Although several of my fellow observers are ex police, I dont know any of them that are pretending. They like me - just want to help. The IAM syllabus is taken directly from Road Craft and "simplified" to make it a bit easier to digest. I dont think it conflicts anywhere. I also dont know any observers who aren't capable of riding at the legal limit at any point. They just tend to make a decision not to, based on SAFETY. We clearly have more work to do on consistency of message, perception promoting the reasons why we do this.
Interesting feedback. A great bunch of blokes who gave their time and experience very freely. I also had the advantage of a mate who was an ex pro instructor so got the best of both worlds. As you say very similar doctrine but I elected to ride to the police method which was always my goal. This caused a few interesting roadside debates on the observes! As amateurs we can never reach that level due to ability, time on the bike and extra training but I keep striving. I'm now having to relearn the bike after a recent change to a Monster. We never stop learning do we?!
I did my training but didn't do the test,i'd had enough by then,one saying one thing then another saying that was wrong the next week,i had 2 observers one week and they just continually slated me at the first stop and they looked like they were enjoying it,when we stopped for lunch i told them i was going home (don't get me wrong i can take instruction but they were being ott),they talked me round and hey ho my riding improved dramatically on the way back,which was strange as i didn't ride any different,some of them were ok but too many wannabe coppers stuck up their own arse.
There is some variability, no doubt between observers' styles. Some will suit you better than others certainly. The main thing though is you've built a solid platform now. Maybe one day you might have a crack at the exam?
Paul Matthews, thanks for your comments here. I am thinking of doing the advanced riding course and test. I did the driving and got a ‘first’ but this particular video with these two guys reminded me of a couple of experiences I had that were not so positive. I felt a bit ‘put down’ and intimidated. I questioned some of the advice and pushed back a bit, this seemed to settle the balance a little and they showed me more respect. It would be harder with these two. They had valid points and some very good advice but the overall experience I would not have wanted a repeat of. Also it feels a bit cliquey. Need a big fully faired bike with neon everywhere. There is a limit! I don’t buy into the ‘excess of being seen’. Why not wear flashing Christmas type lights? I’m going off on one now! Anyway thanks for what you said. I feel I am not alone.
I found this one a little frustrating as I didn't agree with a lot of what the observers were saying as it differs to the last few sessions. The making progress aspect is also fine but what is the need to get to 60 or 70? What's wrong with 55/58 and 68/73? I liked your riding and didn't think it warranted all of the opinions to be fair. A few issues also with feet position at a standing point. We were told to NEVER have our right foot down and we had 5 positions for the road. 1: kerb 2: left of centre 3: centre command 4: right of centre, best for the vehicle in front to see you easily. 5: Crown of the road This was from my DAS training in 2016 and advance riding course with a former police trainer going over the visual point method. I would have been in completely the wrong positions obviously 😊
Hi there. When riding to an 'advanced' standard you are expected to make progress, and this is one of the key differences with just 'going out for a nice relaxed ride'. That's why, if possible and safe, you're expected to get up to speed in a snappy fashion. With feet positions there are various factors depending on the quality and angle of road surface and whether you want your foot on rear brake or gear lever. John, here, is impressing upon me the idea that 'it depends' on the situation. With the postions you mention, since coming B2TB I've heard at least 4 different ways of defining them, and don't think it matters waht the labels are. It's more important that we position either for view or safety as required. If you follow the 'boxed set' through you'll see the progression in my learning on all of the above.
Really nice videos nice style nice production. With regard to the speed discussion at 21.00, why is he so pedantic, if indeed you were following the sat nav speed so what?, they are more accurate than speedos (yes i know they are not 100% perfect before you all comment) the fact that his speedo is showing 75ish, is his speedos problem, not yours i.e the limit is 70 therefore you were using a more accurate device to gauge that, he isn't. You cant be pedantic with flawed equipment''. What in effect he is saying then is "its a 70 limit do 65",because thats what you will be actually doing, if you have 70 on your speedo. Now obvously there is a need to keep to speed limit as it helps keep us all safe on the road, but as a fellow road user (40 yrs motorcycling) id feel safer you drifting one or two miles over your speedo reading (n the knowledge its over reading) than religiously staring at your speedo in some pointless atempt to stay at exactly 70. If hes truly concerned for all our safey in stopping you drifting over 70, then common sense suggests you ride at 66 ish to allow for error. An advanced rider//driver is someone who drives around almost unnoticeable to other rd users (nobody ever comes into work saying "oh you should have seen this good driver today etc")not someone who can jkeep exactly 70 on their speedo, no other road user would be aware of benefit from that. Enjoy your biking but remember it for pleasure, not for achievement.
Interesting debate Graham. The aim of these sessions is part instructive/advice, but they also need to prep you for the IAM exam, and even a +1 or 2 mph speed creep would be noted by the examiner, so John is making me aware of this before the examiner does! I checked the satnav afterwards, as it provides a detailed speed profile for the whole session. Where I doing 72mph, the satnav showed 70.34. Inevitably, the observer has to exceed my 72 to keep up so his speedo may read 3-5 mph higher, which can make it look like I was going too fast. Pragmatism suggests most riders may want a 'flexible' interpretation for real life on a busy motorway ;-) Great to hear your views.
Back2TheBike Thank you for your eloquent reply, and indeed revealing that your speedo is quite accurate, however pragmatism or not, I'd hate to think your examiners speedo was less accurate than yours and he marked you down for, drifting over limit. Just a concern. Good luck when the test comes around.
Yeah based on their own riding styles I guess. I much preferred the "spirited" observers for example, "making progress" is defo the fun part of being on 2 wheels ;-)
@@AndrewFosterSheff69 ha ha those days are fading away ..I now much prefer the pursuit of excellence rather than the vehicle in front. I don't like the concept of HAVING to be riding at the speed limit as some rides have their own enjoyable speed and just like riding through that wonderful scenery and super buildings, I like to be able to admire the surroundings, so a slightly lower speed will allow a bit more reaction time should something happen. Each to his own as they say, brilliant video again and I am watching and re-watching to absorb the principles. Best bit was the stationary position at lights, bike over to right and hand on front right brake, neutral gear. Lights change or I anticipate, then my left foot is poised for gear selection and away I go ..
I have just done my taster session and I hoping I don't get destroyed or one person telling me one thing or another person telling me something completely different.
Ha! A but of advice: ultimately it's your final decision what you adopt or reject. You'll hear many opinions, most of them consistent. You'll also find you gel better with some observers, but even those you dont will still give valuable wisdom. Hope all goes well ;-)
When you do your ROSPA, No filtering, I have rospa gold no filtering also IAM First I filtered on that test, You will learn more with rospa than IAM, Good vids, Don't take things to heart just ride and enjoy, forgot more than bill and ben know
Thanks for the encouragement Mark. Filtering on the RT is beyond my competence right now as I don't possess the slow riding skills after such a long time off the bike, so I'm in no rush ! I note what you say about taking it to heart. The life-cycle for one of my 'observes' is enthusiasm - discouragement - disappointment - reflection - practice - realisation - awareness - improvement. I appreciate your kind words. Also interested in what you say about ROSPA, sounds like the next logical step after IAM then?
Both IAM Roadsmart and Rospa should be teaching you to ride to the police Roadcraft standard - there should be no difference - filtering is good practice when beneficial and circs allow. One thing though, IAM have done much work in the last couple of years to ensure consistent standards are being taught and applied - I've not seen anything similar from Rospa so there are doubtless inconsistencies across their groups.
Leaving a bike in N gear on a junction or on the traffic lights? Hmmm... And it came out of the mouth of an instructor? I did not see that coming, to be honest. And again, the reason for it is that the cluch might get prematurely worn out? Hmm... again from me. Quoting the instructor himself: 'Safety comes first'. What if someone was about to hit you from the back and you are in N gear? This made me to question some things they were saying in this video, sorry.
If you're in 1st with clutch in and your hand slips? You may be waiting 2 mins or more for the lights to change, that's a long time with a strong clutch. From N I can be away in a flash. I monitor my mirrors and always have an escape plan for a rear end hit. This procedure - into N, right foot down, left foot ready to select 1st, front brake applied, mirrors moitored - is taught by IAM and UK police and I'm happy with it. No need to apologise ...
@@Back2TheBike Thanks for clarifying, many here in NA are in favour of staying in 1st to accelerate from a rear ender situation. Of course there are many times when we decelerate with another vehicle behind and there is a longer light. It totally makes sense to choose N (now I just have to practice getting out of it, my older RT is a little temperamental lol)
@@wandering_armadillo Hi Di, nice to hear from you. Spring has sprung over here so I had my first decent ride on Wednesday. 275 miles around rural Wiltshire, taking in 5000 years of history inc Stonehenge and the Avebury stone circle. The old bones were a bit sore afterwards but the ICD didn't fire 😄 Holding 1st when stopped at lights isn't a good idea. The clutch needs a fair bit of pressure to keep it pulled in. Your hand only has to slip and the bike takes off. Far better to do as you've said: if you think you'll have to wait more than a few secs (lights, junction, traffic queue), then once stopped, right foot down, into neutral, front brake applied, monitor your mirrors. Always stop a car's length behind the car in front (this sends a message to following traffic to do the same for you). Always have an escape plan, in case you see the guy behind too busy on his cellphone and about to rear end you! Email me direct on Back2TheBike@gmail.com next time now you're a mate! PS RT gearbox is clunky. Select neutral immediately before you stop helps, rather than when stationary.
@@Back2TheBike 275 miles on a naked bike probably equals double on an RT! Oh I would love to be exploring historic Wiltshire on two wheels, we need a transporter and you could enjoy beautiful British Columbia at the same time. Thanks for all the tips, my clutch hand will be very happy too. We are mates, let me write down your email :) Now back to the channel!
I would have been more happy with one instructor throughout so you get a continuous standard of information. Different instructors give slightly different views. But i understand why that cant happen.
Seems like when watching the different instructors. They are all abit conflicting in there teachings. It’s a lot to take in and just watching this short series. It’s shown me. They do all have slightly different ways or riding/teaching you. Interesting all the same. Hard when your taught to ride witching the rules of the Highway Code and also to make progress in the road. Also things have changed now in 2022 with the rules regards to filtering. 🤯
True, but they are each correct in their instruction. Ultimately, having tried out the ideas it's your ride so you must decide what you'll integrate into your approach. There are some areas IAM do require, such as knowledge of the IPSGA system, but many variables also.
@@Back2TheBike this is a fare point. I’ll have to look into IPSGA. I’m relatively inexperienced as a rider. So every little bit of knowledge helps. It’s why a lot of this seems to scramble my Brain. I’ll get there.
I've just recently discovered what the acronym IAM means: I am superior to everyone else, and why do they look like coppers? Secret wish maybe? Too arrogant to pass the exam?
He is wrong about putting you bike into neutral, you should have the bike in gear in case you need to move, there could be a vehicle thats about to run into the back of you, or the car in front starts moving back.
Have to say, as much as they make sense what they say these kind of advanced instructors make me not want to bother, personally find them quite derogatory, I'm not sure they said one positive thing about your ride. As you say perhaps it's styles
Hi Dan. It certainly wan't easy, but don't forget the aim is to learn not to hear what you want. These lessons really hit home, and whilst I didn't want to hear it the time, I needed to be told. I got a huge amout from John and still practice what he taugh me abut the fine art of staying alive! My advice would be don't let that stop you from taking part.
Seems to me if you want to chill behind a car in the longer lane with no need to change direction and 'get back in' then that would be the sensible thing to do. Maybe if it was a bus/truck etc I'd make the move for the sake of visibility. However why would someone 'encourage' you you to join the other lane when we all know that can be occupied by drivers on a mission. I think your observer needs a chill pill and choose a quieter/safer place to stop for a debrief.
As an 'advanced' rider the basis is to balance safety with making progress. The IAM and police encourage you to keep up, always occupying the safest place on the road.
Nothing wrong with the advise from the observers , they only making you a safer rider in my opinion, it will all come together mr back to biker, whatever good tips you pick up is only a benefit, all of us should keep learning , I’m a 25yrs biker and still learning
mario tsourou cheers Mario. I'm in full agreement with you. Being away from the the bike for so long means I have a lot of work to do and the observers are just mirroring that. Thanks for watching !
You have suddenly got extra mirrors. Is this something the observers have suggested or is there some other reason for them? Also why aren't they using comms. They seem to have them don't you?
Well spotted Mike! If you've been following my observed rides you'll have seen how the observer directs from behind by using his indicators. I have to watch and turn accordingly. I've missed a few of these signals, and one of the factors was the LH mirror of the RT grunges up in dirty road conditions. My solution was to fit the mirrors. There are a couple of videos in the playlist that explain why and how. I now also work harder on my rear obsvn to anticipate a potential turn, and it seems to be bearing fruit.
Hi Darren, I am currently a Local Observer with South Wales Advanced Motorcyclists, I have been trained to use radios, There are 3 levels to the radio use. Level 1 is directions only, Level 2 is commentary from the front whilst giving a demo ride. Level 3 is commentary and guidance on the move from behind. At all times the rider is instructed to ride for themselves and I am in no way telling them what to do just making suggestions that they can try or discuss later at the debrief. It depends on if the group is trained up for using them or not, and in every radio session you practice a section of radio silence leading from behind with indicators as if to simulate a radio failure and so that the associate is used to both ways as some examiners use radios and others don't. Even if the observer is radio qualified, It is up to the associate if they want to use radios or if they prefer not. The observer John in this video is the Obsever who qualified me for radio use, after doing the radio training with the Chairman Jeff, John took me out to qualify me. He taught me a valuable lessons about how people can take what you say over the radio literally... straight over the round about.. and over the the grass they go! haha that was just an example of what not to say and on the road as we came into a national I told John to enjoy himself and so he did.. took off like a rocket, then late in the debrief he explained that I should be careful what I say, when I say it and how it could be perceived. Hope this helps :) Enjoying the series and seeing some familiar faces, JEff said he was going to get a pan again, looks like he has with the red one in the next video!
These two instructors do not come across as the best teachers, boring and not great motivators. I am also sure these two instructors will not be the norm, I start my IAM training next week, how depressing will that be if I a get a John (I think I'm a policeman) type of instructor!
Theyre all different for sure, but I learned a lot from John. Really knows his stuff and help3d me a great deal. Some groups place you with one instructor, others like Northants mix it up so you dont get just one view.
![[Live] : ONE 169 วันนี้!! "อนาโตลี vs อูมาร์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IK3YZVWuFJg/mqdefault.jpg)
I am going through IAM training at the moment and it's really enjoyable. The observer with the flip up helmet and the sunglasses goes against the grain somewhat. He might be a very experienced rider but he comes across as a right arrogant sod. Well done for not flattening him !
I though that as well Keith he was arrogant.
I'd have cancelled my course. Very patronising.
@@davidlockett6213 Yes, not my favorite and would have made me less relaxed....
Enjoying this series, makes sense to be taught the processes to work through and not focus on the outcome, as the correct application of the process will naturally deliver the wanted outcome.
Eventually it becomes a system hard wired into your riding, means you ride safer and faster.
Training and biking should be fun! Please trainers, motivating in a positive way is realy important.
Hi John I agree, but I found I benefitted from the different training styles of all the observers. John is very knowledgable and knows his stuff, and I learned a huge amount from him. Thanks for your feedback!
@@Back2TheBike I´ve been re-watching this series of videos and I think that some comments have been a bit harsh on John. As you say, instructors have different styles, and everything he said was on point imo.....
Fascinating videos....Thanks!!
All very interesting. I’m a binary person yet the advice you’re getting is woolly to my ears! Looking forward to the next episode 👍🏻
Yes, lots of advice, different styles and differing focus from the 5 observers so far. All good stuff. On this session there was so much I had to go through the video and my notes many times. Unfortunately, the snow has stopped me getting out to practice it!
Thanks for the video! I have been on "real" Triumphs for many years, have had a two years break and now about to get back on a 2001 Triumph T100. I have spent my career instructing and mostly in uniform. I would like to make a few comments if I can; the shades - they may be light reactive, I am sure no bad manners meant, whatever feels comfy works well. Two instructors; a positive slant is that you do not get a one-sided critique. Its routine to allow ONE person to lead, with the other instructor adding supporting comment and maybe filling in any gaps. I thought they worked well on that. We can ALL learn - no matter how many miles you have ridden, it may not improve your road craft. We need to keep our minds open to advice and be big enough to accept those well meaning suggestions. What have I learned? Road positioning, good observation, early preparation for changing road position, right speed for the conditions, self-assessment throughout the ride, anticipation of other vehicles behaviour and being prepared for all eventualities, plus awareness of the dangers behind .. Nobody likes being told what to do, but these guys do it well and everything they said makes sense. If we can weave all that into our riding then we will have a much safer and more enjoyable ride. Well done, Liam
Hi Liam, and welcome to B2TB. Always good to hear from those who've served. I agree with your take, i got a lot from this session. It's one of 12 or so in the IAM boxed set, capped off by the exam. Coming back to a bike after nearly 40 years I felt the best 'mod' I could invest in was the training and it has been a good decision. My mentor seaflyfisher runs his own channel and his input has been brilliant after a life as a pro.
@@Back2TheBike Business recovery has taken up all my time lately, but now back out on a 1973 T140v as its a bike that I have been "as one" with for many years. Still absorbing all your observations and advice, really top class. I am relocating back to Norwich very soon and will be joining the good people down there on the NAM - Norfolk Advanced Motorcyclists. You have been through a few twists and turns that are not road related, so I wish you the very best of health and a huge thanks again for your inspiring videos, Liam
@@detectoruser thanks for that Liam. Heart is about 55% but my Monster provides the oomph!
Thanks for uploading, good advice on positioning at junctions and parking up so you're ready when you move off again. Good luck with your course.
Hi Meg! Welcome to the debate. Yes, this was number 826 on the things I have to do when I ride the bike ;-) Thanks for your good wishes.
Whilst I agree with some of the views held here by the instructors, I don't believe that if you don't abide by them that you would necessarily be a worse rider or in more danger, nor be capable of making progress safely.
Sometimes there is more than one position in the road that is perfectly fine to adopt in my view, and just because there is opportunity to do so doesn't mean you have to.
It's all on a sliding scale, you sacrifice position for safety, so I always simply think of "halving the danger", like a "binary chop", so get in the middle of the hazards to reduce both as much as possible (obvs speed plays a part there too, too much danger and you may ultimately come to a stop for example). There can be no hard and fast rule as situations / conditions change constantly, just keep the TUG carousel spinning, when it stops spinning can be the problem (freezing)! LOL! ;-)
Hello again matey. Tend to agree with the other comments here that this one has knocked you back a bit. That happened to me too, and left me doubting whether I'd EVER really get there. I asked for a break on one session, everything felt wrong and I just wasn't dialled in, and grabbed an impromptu coffee with the observer. We had a chat, he reassured me that this does happen, and off we went again for a better second half. I think John was a bit hard on you here and there and maybe a bit over-prescriptive on things that could come later, wouldn't argue with anything he said though.On positioning, I really do not like riding in the centre position because it sticks the bike right on that couple of feet of tarmac that has all the grit, glass, nails, oil, etc that can lessen grip or cause punctures. I also learned that sooner or later you'll miss the cues that the car in front has slowed and need to brake hard. Being dead centre means you could be doing this on the aforementioned crap; being in position one or three also gives you a better option to divert around the stopped or slow car as a last resort (don't ask how I know this....). I know IAM is all about not getting into trouble, rather than getting out of it, but it happens.Keep going, practice is all, because things do move from conscious competence to unconscious competence. You'll get there, it isn't a race, and sometimes taking more time gives a more rounded learning experience.Hope that helps.
Kevin B As always Kevin tour input is much appreciated. To be honest all of the observes so far have had a lot of points to make. I put up a little more of the chat on this film as I thought the dialogue was useful and it did help me. I like your point about positioning, as you say sooner or later we'll all find trouble so what you say makes sense. Fascinating too to hear about your 'coffee' session. This 'overload' tends to hit me when I've Ben riding for too long without a break, so it's vital to know when one has hit the 'wall' - metaphorically speaking!
I certainly learnt a few things on that one, especially the STOP sign, road clear I would of gone, after driving buses, and had it drummed into me, Mirrors, Mirrors, Mirrors. I use mine a lot more in the car.
It was a steep learning curve for me too Paul. Still is!
Another great learning session, you are doing very well with taking it all in. There will be a point when everything will just click & it will become second nature. However every ride is a new experience. Keep up the good work 👍
Andy G Cheers Andy, hoping that click comes sooner rather than later!
Much tougher than I thought, keep up the good work, ride safe
Tell me about it! It does start to sink in though, and if it stops me going head-first through a hedge it's worth it ...
Excellent videos. Starting my IAM course on saturday (18/01/20), and your videos have been very interesting and helpful 👍
Brill. Im heading into Liverpool today too. Hope your training goes well.
MerseyMoto, keep us posted on your progress!
Just going through your back log of IAM training, having past my full bike test only last year, most of the questions were exactly the same as i asked, also was doing the same mistakes, lol, just looked up my local group and contacted them to start the next part of motorcycling journey, great uploads, cheers for sharing
That's good news Andy. You'll get real benefit from moving up a level in your riding and get more from your bike too. Let me know how you get on!
@@Back2TheBike watching your films has given me a few questions about speed and grey area, when overtaking a vehicle , where do you stand with going above speed limit while overtaking to get clear and back onto your side, heard conflicting answers, whats your take of it, cheers
@@BeardedBiker6611 First off I'd advise watching SeaFlyFisher (ex pro) channel, his Masterclass series IMHO are the best you'll find on YT. His later films get into the technicalities of a safe and effective overtake. When I did my BikeSafe day with Leics police this year they took the pragmatic view that you need to get past quickly and safely, even if that meant going (briefly and within reason) over the limit. Having said that, they also said if you get zapped by a camera it's a fair cop, so to speak. The more I work at overtakes though, the more I realise even if you only have 5-10mph to play with that's enough to get past safely.
@@Back2TheBike cheers for the above, heard the same about overtaking, grey area, lol, cheers for your time .
@@BeardedBiker6611 - Hi Andy - I have to agree with Neil here - I am truly magnificent - but going back to your overtaking question, if you're on test or doing an observed ride I would suggest that you ask your observer/examiner what they're happy with - most will probably want you to comply with the limit so good planning, location and assessment of the subject vehicle is essential - when I'm riding for myself, safety is the prime consideration and I want to be on the offside lane for as short a time as possible - no-one is going to grumble too much over a few miles an hour momentarily and you can still "get it done" quickly and without upsetting anyone if your choices of location, positioning and execution are done right - overtaking is like use of the gearbox - it's one of those things that can make or break your riding and requires continual planning and observation on your part to make sure that you create the opportunity rather than sitting back waiting for one to drop into your lap - personally I like to try and enhance our reputation and there's a huge difference between a properly planned and smoothly executed overtake and dialling in nine grand and going for it six inches away from their door - many riders and drivers are quite capable of driving fast until it comes to having to make the decision to overtake and very often they end up trailing along behind a slower vehicle and/or pushing a dodgy overtake out of frustration through not knowing how to plan them properly - I saw that you've just jumped across to my channel and you'll find a fair bit on OT on there - the first eleven videos are aimed at a "stay alive" style of riding and after that was when I met Neil and kicked things up a notch to get him up to test standard - when you plan, you need to be in the right place, at the right speed and with the right gear engaged as you assess the other vehicle and move up from a following to an overtaking position at every likely overtaking opportunity - whilst you're doing it start the sequence of always making sure that you clear any possibility of nearside danger first - this view is the most important - you don't want to be overtaking perfectly to be confronted by someone head on that's come out of a nearside junction that you didn't see or have the vehicle you're overtaking pull out round that broken down vehicle or cyclist that you missed - once you've cleared the nearside you can position to clear the offside view and if it's clear and your planning is good - all you need to do is accelerate past, positioning yourself in the safest place on the road before returning to the nearside lane and matching your speed to any traffic ahead of you - I did one for Neil (19) that's mostly overtaking but you'll find some more scattered through the others too - stay safe - Dale
Just coming up to my final observed rides on my course I am so glad I didn't get observer's like these two.
Nothing wrong there. I learned loads from both ;-)
Lane filtering isn't illegal, so move right up to the front if legal (not past the front car at a pelican or zebra for example) and safe to do so ;-)
I've done a series on the IAM experience too, they say it's all good when the penny drops but I think my penny was bigger than the slot :D
Hepcat Harley Indeed, I share your pain. I still feel like the new kid at school who gets his cap nicked on the first day. Trying to stay upright and concentrate. Taken a quick look at your stuff. Very funny.
I've ridden for 45 years, passed my millionth mile a couple of years ago, and find the IAM guys often well meaning but incapable of riding genuinely quickly and also regularly petty and pedantic who rarely have any idea of everyday, all year, all weather riding.
Steve Parry Hi Steve, that's a lot of miles. Must be honest they've been really helpful to me. I'd been off the bike since 1980 and needed a framework to get me started again. The Northants guys are capable of riding quickly if they choose, but their objective is get you to test standard. They emphasise the system is there to applied as you need, not a rigid approach.
Interesting vid. I think both observers were good but it is tricky if there are 2 of them, because they are both watching each other. You also come across as being quite switched on and with a cam, they could feel on edge on what they say. I’d say 2 things - you should try and have a good 1 to 1 with John, with no camera, have a coffee and chill a bit. On your riding - I’d use your gears more, the BM’s have awesome torque
Hi GSM, welcome. Thanks for the comments - I'm sure you're right on both counts there. Everyone spots my reluctance to change up!
An interesting vid this one, lots of feedback. I am presuming you have only shown the negative criticism, and not the positive as am sure you did some stuff right. I agree the gents glasses may have been light reactive however them mixed with his mannerisms and negative critique making it quite an uncomfortable debrief. Am sure he was a pleasant lad and very knowledgeable however he could learn stuff from this content himself.
I’m just starting on this journey and so am watching this excellent video series. Thank you! This one was a tough one to watch, I could feel your confidence ebbing away. Each instructor really does bring different ideas and thoughts..... some great tips but have to say, I like Dave though 😉
Some IAM groups will assign an observer who stays with all the way through. Northants spread the love around so you dont become a clone of any one person and trust you to take from each what you think is appropriate. Every one of these guys helped me and their differing styles made me think.
That makes a lot of sense. Just going onto #7 vid now. How far have you progressed to date? Have you an end goal or is it to be the best and safest ride you can be? Look up BloodBikesEast, that’s my goal for now. Thanks again for the super content taking us on this journey with you! It really is refreshingly honest.
@@dargar7325 Certainly a few ups and downs along the way, all part of learning. You can follow the whole story on the channel so I won't spoil any surprises!
Blimey this is complicated stuff! Great video for getting some ideas though. 🏍
Yes, took me a while for it to sink in. Worth it though!
I was considering this course as triumph are offering £40 discount for owners but having watched a few of these videos I'm not so confident I would have the patience to deal with the more "subjective elements" and almost complete opinions of other riders.
Case in point, on your second feedback session, the chap with the beard reckons that to avoid doing the "engine shuffle" as they called it, you should hold your front brake at the lights and have your left foot up on the gear shift ready... Now I remember being told explicitly by 2 different qualified motorbike coppers (bike safe course) and 2 different qualified instructors (my DAS courses) that you should always have your foot on the rear brake and not use the front in case you're rear ended by a car (or bike) which will cause your bike to want to tip you straight over the handlebars due to the front wheel being locked by your brake as opposed to skidding the rear.
Of course depending on how bad & fast the rear end smash is, neither brake may save you but if it is a slow one then I would rather do the "engine shuffle" than wind up head butting my front tire as I somersault off the bike forwards, if hit from behind.
On that basis me and the bearded chap would have to agree to disagree on that point but due to the fact that he has more shiny badges than me I'm guessing my understanding of the correct approach would be considered wrong? That would irritate me.
You'd definitely need to have a glass half full approach to this and try to have a good filter for things that you don't agree with and take away the best points that make perfect common sense and that you completely agree with.
Interesting point Nic, and I've heard both sides argued here, left or right foot down, both with their own merits. I'm a right foot down man now. Our IAM chaps do sometimes vary on opinions, but I was advised its my choice what I take on board. After 9 sessions, and considerable input from my mentor, an ex-pro, I reckon 95%+ is probably agreed by everyone, but there will always be a few things that are open to debate. I think £100 for an IAM course is the best safety mod you can make to your bike, but we always have the final decision what we take on board. I suggest you subscribe to the SeaFlyFisher channel and look at his MasterClass series too.
Thanks for the info dude, I'll check him out. Good luck with the rest of the course and exam.
It's the Hendon Shuffle,which was taught to the Police motorcyclists many years ago,it's best not mentioning it to Iam types it can start a two hour debate
The instructor said the preferred position behind a car is dead center. I started riding bikes in 1983 and the rule then was to ride either to the left or right of the lane but not in the center. The reasoning was the center is where engine oil, transmission fluid, and other leakage would accumulate. Now, that may have been because cars were crap in the 80’s, but isn’t that a consideration?
I suspect he would say 'it depends'! I got the impression the nominal position is just to right of centre in most situations, but factoring in oncoming traffic, junctions, and as you say the sump line thinking.
Jack1 This used to be called "the sump line" for the very reasons that you point out. However as you also said about the quality of cars back then compared to todays quality, this is not the case as much. Quite often you will find oil either side of the centre (sump line) so it is realy a case of observing the serface and going from there 👍
69gjacko agreed. My nominal position for a straght road is now on the RH tyre track unless i need to give way to oncoming traffic.
Good video B2TB. Once again, a lot more info for you to process. Will you be keeping the same observer throughout the Advanced Rider course or changing each time? My local group keep the same observer to trainee each time (where possible) which I think is a great idea as I imagine every observer reaches the goal (successfully getting you up to standard) in a different way and have different teaching styles which to me could get confusing.
My local group cancelled the ride today due to this pesky weather we're having currently, although it is for the best to be honest.
I see a repeating theme with a lot of these 'Obervers' in that it's their school of riding with no reference to Roadcraft to back up what they 'preach'. Way too much criticism for one observed ride, very little praise or questioning what your thoughts were. The guy with the glasses is on a huge ego trip and is coming across as a wanna be copper (again a common theme with a lot of these observers) The bearded guy is not contributing at all and should just stand back. Not a great advert for IAM coaching.
Think I preferred the earlier observers tbh, not impressed with these two badge collectors....far too much info coming from them for one session
Just a different style I think. I actually got a lot out of this session even though as you say there was a lot of information.
John seems incapable of getting to the point. You (we) are most likely to take the advice on board, if it is given in a precise and concise manor.
The trainee observer seems bored out of his mind and the other guy seems so humourless I'd have switched off too. Find a better observer.
Wow if this was my first introduction to IAM it would certainly be my last, Mechanical Sympathy!! Sat Nag! If I’m not using my maps on my my Sat NAV then I’m using it for my speed control, why, well it’s precise my clock isn’t, and I’d never talk to someone with my sunglasses on in a teaching environment, how rude. Fortunately I’ve watched all the others, bring back Dave
Totally agree 👍
Very interesting set of videos. Good work. I hope the comments have been seen by the observers who were trying to assist you. I especially liked the Sat Nav as a speed reference comment and the ones around wannabe coppers, not using Road Craft and Observers not being able to ride fast?
The Sat Nav is not your legal reference for speed. It is is not consistently more accurate either. Keep with the Speedo. But 73 mph on your speedo is more likely to be 70 than an actual 70 mph reading - they are +0, minus x% in reading. I have had mine calibrated and it definitely reads "under" by a few mph.
Although several of my fellow observers are ex police, I dont know any of them that are pretending. They like me - just want to help.
The IAM syllabus is taken directly from Road Craft and "simplified" to make it a bit easier to digest. I dont think it conflicts anywhere.
I also dont know any observers who aren't capable of riding at the legal limit at any point. They just tend to make a decision not to, based on SAFETY.
We clearly have more work to do on consistency of message, perception promoting the reasons why we do this.
Interesting feedback. A great bunch of blokes who gave their time and experience very freely. I also had the advantage of a mate who was an ex pro instructor so got the best of both worlds. As you say very similar doctrine but I elected to ride to the police method which was always my goal. This caused a few interesting roadside debates on the observes! As amateurs we can never reach that level due to ability, time on the bike and extra training but I keep striving. I'm now having to relearn the bike after a recent change to a Monster. We never stop learning do we?!
It can be destroying just when you think you’ve got it ! Practice practice practice
I did my training but didn't do the test,i'd had enough by then,one saying one thing then another saying that was wrong the next week,i had 2 observers one week and they just continually slated me at the first stop and they looked like they were enjoying it,when we stopped for lunch i told them i was going home (don't get me wrong i can take instruction but they were being ott),they talked me round and hey ho my riding improved dramatically on the way back,which was strange as i didn't ride any different,some of them were ok but too many wannabe coppers stuck up their own arse.
There is some variability, no doubt between observers' styles. Some will suit you better than others certainly. The main thing though is you've built a solid platform now. Maybe one day you might have a crack at the exam?
@@Back2TheBike I doubt I'll do the exam again,but I still try to ride to the system and look for continual improvement
Paul Matthews, thanks for your comments here. I am thinking of doing the advanced riding course and test. I did the driving and got a ‘first’ but this particular video with these two guys reminded me of a couple of experiences I had that were not so positive. I felt a bit ‘put down’ and intimidated. I questioned some of the advice and pushed back a bit, this seemed to settle the balance a little and they showed me more respect.
It would be harder with these two. They had valid points and some very good advice but the overall experience I would not have wanted a repeat of.
Also it feels a bit cliquey. Need a big fully faired bike with neon everywhere. There is a limit! I don’t buy into the ‘excess of being seen’. Why not wear flashing Christmas type lights? I’m going off on one now!
Anyway thanks for what you said. I feel I am not alone.
I found this one a little frustrating as I didn't agree with a lot of what the observers were saying as it differs to the last few sessions.
The making progress aspect is also fine but what is the need to get to 60 or 70? What's wrong with 55/58 and 68/73?
I liked your riding and didn't think it warranted all of the opinions to be fair.
A few issues also with feet position at a standing point.
We were told to NEVER have our right foot down and we had 5 positions for the road.
1: kerb
2: left of centre
3: centre command
4: right of centre, best for the vehicle in front to see you easily.
5: Crown of the road
This was from my DAS training in 2016 and advance riding course with a former police trainer going over the visual point method.
I would have been in completely the wrong positions obviously 😊
Hi there. When riding to an 'advanced' standard you are expected to make progress, and this is one of the key differences with just 'going out for a nice relaxed ride'. That's why, if possible and safe, you're expected to get up to speed in a snappy fashion.
With feet positions there are various factors depending on the quality and angle of road surface and whether you want your foot on rear brake or gear lever. John, here, is impressing upon me the idea that 'it depends' on the situation.
With the postions you mention, since coming B2TB I've heard at least 4 different ways of defining them, and don't think it matters waht the labels are. It's more important that we position either for view or safety as required.
If you follow the 'boxed set' through you'll see the progression in my learning on all of the above.
Really nice videos nice style nice production.
With regard to the speed discussion at 21.00, why is he so pedantic, if indeed you were following the sat nav speed so what?, they are more accurate than speedos (yes i know they are not 100% perfect before you all comment) the fact that his speedo is showing 75ish, is his speedos problem, not yours i.e the limit is 70 therefore you were using a more accurate device to gauge that, he isn't. You cant be pedantic with flawed equipment''.
What in effect he is saying then is "its a 70 limit do 65",because thats what you will be actually doing, if you have 70 on your speedo.
Now obvously there is a need to keep to speed limit as it helps keep us all safe on the road, but as a fellow road user (40 yrs motorcycling) id feel safer you drifting one or two miles over your speedo reading (n the knowledge its over reading) than religiously staring at your speedo in some pointless atempt to stay at exactly 70.
If hes truly concerned for all our safey in stopping you drifting over 70, then common sense suggests you ride at 66 ish to allow for error.
An advanced rider//driver is someone who drives around almost unnoticeable to other rd users (nobody ever comes into work saying "oh you should have seen this good driver today etc")not someone who can jkeep exactly 70 on their speedo, no other road user would be aware of benefit from that.
Enjoy your biking but remember it for pleasure, not for achievement.
Interesting debate Graham. The aim of these sessions is part instructive/advice, but they also need to prep you for the IAM exam, and even a +1 or 2 mph speed creep would be noted by the examiner, so John is making me aware of this before the examiner does! I checked the satnav afterwards, as it provides a detailed speed profile for the whole session. Where I doing 72mph, the satnav showed 70.34. Inevitably, the observer has to exceed my 72 to keep up so his speedo may read 3-5 mph higher, which can make it look like I was going too fast. Pragmatism suggests most riders may want a 'flexible' interpretation for real life on a busy motorway ;-) Great to hear your views.
Back2TheBike Thank you for your eloquent reply, and indeed revealing that your speedo is quite accurate, however pragmatism or not, I'd hate to think your examiners speedo was less accurate than yours and he marked you down for, drifting over limit. Just a concern. Good luck when the test comes around.
Observer, if you are talking to someone take you're sunglasses off, it's just rude! Anybody training, giving instruction or observing knows that!
I’m going through same process, I’m working my way through ur videos very interesting but also how the different observers give mixed advise
Yeah based on their own riding styles I guess. I much preferred the "spirited" observers for example, "making progress" is defo the fun part of being on 2 wheels ;-)
@@AndrewFosterSheff69 ha ha those days are fading away ..I now much prefer the pursuit of excellence rather than the vehicle in front. I don't like the concept of HAVING to be riding at the speed limit as some rides have their own enjoyable speed and just like riding through that wonderful scenery and super buildings, I like to be able to admire the surroundings, so a slightly lower speed will allow a bit more reaction time should something happen. Each to his own as they say, brilliant video again and I am watching and re-watching to absorb the principles. Best bit was the stationary position at lights, bike over to right and hand on front right brake, neutral gear. Lights change or I anticipate, then my left foot is poised for gear selection and away I go ..
I have just done my taster session and I hoping I don't get destroyed or one person telling me one thing or another person telling me something completely different.
Ha! A but of advice: ultimately it's your final decision what you adopt or reject. You'll hear many opinions, most of them consistent. You'll also find you gel better with some observers, but even those you dont will still give valuable wisdom. Hope all goes well ;-)
When you do your ROSPA, No filtering, I have rospa gold no filtering also IAM First I filtered on that test, You will learn more with rospa than IAM, Good vids, Don't take things to heart just ride and enjoy, forgot more than bill and ben know
Thanks for the encouragement Mark. Filtering on the RT is beyond my competence right now as I don't possess the slow riding skills after such a long time off the bike, so I'm in no rush ! I note what you say about taking it to heart. The life-cycle for one of my 'observes' is enthusiasm - discouragement - disappointment - reflection - practice - realisation - awareness - improvement. I appreciate your kind words. Also interested in what you say about ROSPA, sounds like the next logical step after IAM then?
Both IAM Roadsmart and Rospa should be teaching you to ride to the police Roadcraft standard - there should be no difference - filtering is good practice when beneficial and circs allow. One thing though, IAM have done much work in the last couple of years to ensure consistent standards are being taught and applied - I've not seen anything similar from Rospa so there are doubtless inconsistencies across their groups.
Leaving a bike in N gear on a junction or on the traffic lights? Hmmm...
And it came out of the mouth of an instructor? I did not see that coming, to be honest.
And again, the reason for it is that the cluch might get prematurely worn out? Hmm... again from me.
Quoting the instructor himself:
'Safety comes first'.
What if someone was about to hit you from the back and you are in N gear?
This made me to question some things they were saying in this video, sorry.
If you're in 1st with clutch in and your hand slips?
You may be waiting 2 mins or more for the lights to change, that's a long time with a strong clutch. From N I can be away in a flash. I monitor my mirrors and always have an escape plan for a rear end hit.
This procedure - into N, right foot down, left foot ready to select 1st, front brake applied, mirrors moitored - is taught by IAM and UK police and I'm happy with it.
No need to apologise ...
@@Back2TheBike Thanks for clarifying, many here in NA are in favour of staying in 1st to accelerate from a rear ender situation. Of course there are many times when we decelerate with another vehicle behind and there is a longer light. It totally makes sense to choose N (now I just have to practice getting out of it, my older RT is a little temperamental lol)
@@wandering_armadillo Hi Di, nice to hear from you. Spring has sprung over here so I had my first decent ride on Wednesday. 275 miles around rural Wiltshire, taking in 5000 years of history inc Stonehenge and the Avebury stone circle. The old bones were a bit sore afterwards but the ICD didn't fire 😄
Holding 1st when stopped at lights isn't a good idea. The clutch needs a fair bit of pressure to keep it pulled in. Your hand only has to slip and the bike takes off. Far better to do as you've said: if you think you'll have to wait more than a few secs (lights, junction, traffic queue), then once stopped, right foot down, into neutral, front brake applied, monitor your mirrors. Always stop a car's length behind the car in front (this sends a message to following traffic to do the same for you). Always have an escape plan, in case you see the guy behind too busy on his cellphone and about to rear end you!
Email me direct on Back2TheBike@gmail.com next time now you're a mate!
PS RT gearbox is clunky. Select neutral immediately before you stop helps, rather than when stationary.
@@Back2TheBike 275 miles on a naked bike probably equals double on an RT! Oh I would love to be exploring historic Wiltshire on two wheels, we need a transporter and you could enjoy beautiful British Columbia at the same time.
Thanks for all the tips, my clutch hand will be very happy too. We are mates, let me write down your email :) Now back to the channel!
Are IAM sponsored by BMW 😂
Cloggsy Goodwin Feels that way Cloggsy!
I would have been more happy with one instructor throughout so you get a continuous standard of information. Different instructors give slightly different views. But i understand why that cant happen.
Michael Dignum Their idea is that you don't become the clone of one instructor I think.
Seems like when watching the different instructors. They are all abit conflicting in there teachings. It’s a lot to take in and just watching this short series. It’s shown me. They do all have slightly different ways or riding/teaching you. Interesting all the same. Hard when your taught to ride witching the rules of the Highway Code and also to make progress in the road. Also things have changed now in 2022 with the rules regards to filtering. 🤯
True, but they are each correct in their instruction. Ultimately, having tried out the ideas it's your ride so you must decide what you'll integrate into your approach. There are some areas IAM do require, such as knowledge of the IPSGA system, but many variables also.
@@Back2TheBike this is a fare point. I’ll have to look into IPSGA. I’m relatively inexperienced as a rider. So every little bit of knowledge helps. It’s why a lot of this seems to scramble my Brain. I’ll get there.
@@stuntfrenchy5374 get yourself down to your nearest IAM and have a free check ride. They'll help you unscramble the grey matter!
I've just recently discovered what the acronym IAM means: I am superior to everyone else, and why do they look like coppers? Secret wish maybe? Too arrogant to pass the exam?
Disagree. A group of blokes who give up their spare time to share their skills to make sure we get home safe.
He is wrong about putting you bike into neutral, you should have the bike in gear in case you need to move, there could be a vehicle thats about to run into the back of you, or the car in front starts moving back.
Nope.
Have to say, as much as they make sense what they say these kind of advanced instructors make me not want to bother, personally find them quite derogatory, I'm not sure they said one positive thing about your ride. As you say perhaps it's styles
Hi Dan. It certainly wan't easy, but don't forget the aim is to learn not to hear what you want. These lessons really hit home, and whilst I didn't want to hear it the time, I needed to be told. I got a huge amout from John and still practice what he taugh me abut the fine art of staying alive!
My advice would be don't let that stop you from taking part.
Seems to me if you want to chill behind a car in the longer lane with no need to change direction and 'get back in' then that would be the sensible thing to do. Maybe if it was a bus/truck etc I'd make the move for the sake of visibility. However why would someone 'encourage' you you to join the other lane when we all know that can be occupied by drivers on a mission. I think your observer needs a chill pill and choose a quieter/safer place to stop for a debrief.
As an 'advanced' rider the basis is to balance safety with making progress. The IAM and police encourage you to keep up, always occupying the safest place on the road.
Nothing wrong with the advise from the observers , they only making you a safer rider in my opinion, it will all come together mr back to biker, whatever good tips you pick up is only a benefit, all of us should keep learning , I’m a 25yrs biker and still learning
mario tsourou cheers Mario. I'm in full agreement with you. Being away from the the bike for so long means I have a lot of work to do and the observers are just mirroring that. Thanks for watching !
No shame in missing a signal
You have suddenly got extra mirrors. Is this something the observers have suggested or is there some other reason for them? Also why aren't they using comms. They seem to have them don't you?
Well spotted Mike! If you've been following my observed rides you'll have seen how the observer directs from behind by using his indicators. I have to watch and turn accordingly. I've missed a few of these signals, and one of the factors was the LH mirror of the RT grunges up in dirty road conditions. My solution was to fit the mirrors. There are a couple of videos in the playlist that explain why and how. I now also work harder on my rear obsvn to anticipate a potential turn, and it seems to be bearing fruit.
The IAM don’t use coms as they aren’t instructing the rider. They are observing. It comes down to legality and insurance
mike strivens Hi Mike check out my 2 videos on the mirrors. They dont use radio as they try to replicate test conditions.
Hi Darren,
I am currently a Local Observer with South Wales Advanced Motorcyclists, I have been trained to use radios, There are 3 levels to the radio use.
Level 1 is directions only, Level 2 is commentary from the front whilst giving a demo ride. Level 3 is commentary and guidance on the move from behind.
At all times the rider is instructed to ride for themselves and I am in no way telling them what to do just making suggestions that they can try or discuss later at the debrief.
It depends on if the group is trained up for using them or not, and in every radio session you practice a section of radio silence leading from behind with indicators as if to simulate a radio failure and so that the associate is used to both ways as some examiners use radios and others don't.
Even if the observer is radio qualified, It is up to the associate if they want to use radios or if they prefer not.
The observer John in this video is the Obsever who qualified me for radio use, after doing the radio training with the Chairman Jeff, John took me out to qualify me.
He taught me a valuable lessons about how people can take what you say over the radio literally... straight over the round about.. and over the the grass they go!
haha that was just an example of what not to say and on the road as we came into a national I told John to enjoy himself and so he did.. took off like a rocket, then late in the debrief he explained that I should be careful what I say, when I say it and how it could be perceived.
Hope this helps :)
Enjoying the series and seeing some familiar faces, JEff said he was going to get a pan again, looks like he has with the red one in the next video!
Yes, Mr Chairman has a Pan in his collection. A very nice bloke too.
It would have been better to have this conversation in a classroom,too much irritating traffic noise.
The roadside is the classroom ;-)
These two instructors do not come across as the best teachers, boring and not great motivators. I am also sure these two instructors will not be the norm, I start my IAM training next week, how depressing will that be if I a get a John (I think I'm a policeman) type of instructor!
Theyre all different for sure, but I learned a lot from John. Really knows his stuff and help3d me a great deal. Some groups place you with one instructor, others like Northants mix it up so you dont get just one view.
@@Back2TheBike Great videos by the way, well done.