I actually quite like how the BBC series does this scene. It's so traumatic that Billy loses Ratter that he completely gives up and as soon as his mum reassures him he lets go. He's so alone that he can't go on anymore. I do think it's better that they have Billy rather than Tony from the books, especially since Tony Costa is such a big character in this version
I thought he died of the elements because Arctic effectively, it didn't quite make sense to me that not having your Dæmon connected would kill you, especially since the TV show showed the Dæmon didn't Dust (and stayed alive but purposeless) like I figured is what killed them.
@@Roadent1241 In both the books and the TV show they say that they have a new separation machine that doesn't kill as many of the children. For the adults, it seems to be ok, but the younger you are (Billie is only about 7) the more difficult it to survive. He managed to survive the cold for quite a long time and died after being rescued, so if he died from the elements I would have expected him to have died before
Ani Searle fair enough. It's kind of amazing how strong a will humans have. He just wanted to say goodbye and make sure his mum knew he was around until that moment.
@@Roadent1241 Yeah! That's exactly what I thought. I mean, my Mum is skiing to the South Pole atm basically just because she can- it's taking an enormous amount of will as she's not seen another living being for about 3 and a half weeks now
The issue wasn't writing or directing. The issue was executives wanting to make money on something controversial, then getting cold feet that it wouldn't make money due to being controversial. The film had a great director, cast, and effects, but was butchered by the bottom line, which, ironically, probably lost them more money in the long run.
Actually, part of the problem was Nicole Kidman putting massive pressure on the film to not be overly negative towards Christianity. She is/was a very ardent Christian during the filming and didn't want the movie to be harsh towards her faith so she used her star power to make it very politically correct in all aspects
@@Dave-sk9mn Nicole Kidman?? Was she in HDM?? I know that she was in the 2007 movie, but what does the cast of that movie have to do with this new tv series?? Also, even though I know Pullman's story behind his books was from a highly atheistic perpective, his books aren't explicitly "against Christianity" as you say. Although "the Authority" is killed, there is not much mention of Jesus, Mary or any other typical Christian figures. It is more against the idea of Monotheism, rather than Christianity.
@@eliyasara9786 Kidmen put massive pressure on the film to remove parts against Christianity, it was references to the Church, to faith and belief, to God etc. She is/was a very strong believer in the Faith of Christianity and no matter how you argue it, Pullmans work is a condemnation of the three variants of the Abrahamic faiths.
@@Dave-sk9mn It is a condemnation of monotheism and sometimes (very rarely) mentions "Our Lord" or something similar, but even though I understand that Pullman is hugely anti-Christianity, it is still very subtle in the books.I feel like it is more "anti any heavenly authority". Also, I am talking about the TV series, not the film. I don't know how Kidman could have influensed the TV series because they aren't linked.
@@eliyasara9786 Yes Because the the first book takes place in an alternate reality where things went slightly differently than in ours. So when you hear "The Authority" it is identical to a person from our reality saying "Lord and Savour" or "God". The fact that the second and third books go into far more detail about it, from Angels to the Fall, it is meant to be a condemnation of Christianity. The TV series as a whole is fine - I have 1 issue with it and its the radio broadcast of Will's "crime" and naming him 15, that leads to a whole swarm of unfortunate implications for the end of book 3/series 3 if they get to it - and I've not said a thing about the TV series, Kidman has nothing to do with the Series at all. She was a very big A-Lister when the film came out and her name delivered a lot of clout in Hollywood and the public. She threatened to pull her name and her role from the FILM if they didn't remove overt Christian symbols and iconography. Which tanked the film and ultimately her career as an A-Lister, go check her IMdB...its a list of massive secondary roles and indie/failed films from 2008 onwards. People reacted badly to how she was linked to the destruction of what could have been a decent set of fantasy films and the public reacted badly to it. Go back, check the old reviews on places like IMdB and Metacritic for peoples views on Kidman's involvement in tanking the film.
To be fair to the movie, while the acting, set design and directing was very lack luster, almost all the changes it made to the script were pretty smart decisions given the layout of the book.
the book establishes how repulsive and revolting it is to have a person without a daemon, over and over again. What stood out to me was Pullman saying it was akin to seeing a person without their head; that did it for me. Both movie and TV show unfortunately didn't get this important nuance about a person and a daemon's relationship, and I feel like it wasn't so hard to write that aspect in. it has nothing to do with special effects or the actors; just writing, plain and simple.
Yeah, the Daemon is also basically the person’s soul embodied into physical form , so people without Daemon’s would essentially be soulless people where al the light/lufe has been sucked out.
I think the TV show did a good job. Not as rich and filled as the book, but they were certainly aiming for an unsettling atmosphere and a darker tone and they succeeded. It's hard to pack dialogues, thoughts, world building subtext and character development in a single scene/sequence and make it work, even more so in a 50 minutes TV episode, but you can tell they're trying to tell a good story and I appreciate that. Cool video. Thanks.
Yeah, I mostly think the show was going for something different. Rather than developing Lyra's character individually, it felt like they used that scene to have her bond with Ma Costa and Lee Scoresby. Not how I would have done it but the moment still had emotional impact.
I just have to say that even though I know this scene well, hearing the paragraph about the fish and the child having no daemon gave me chills! I absolutely loved these books and when I saw the film I was too young to really understand any of the intricacies of literature so I loved it.mow there's a BBC/HBO series that looks really really well done with a huge budget, so hopefully that means they have a director and adapters passionate about the books.
Yeah I'm really enjoying the series. It's made several changes from the books, but importantly the changes all feel to me like they have a purpose and are trying to say something significant, even if the message is different from the books.
@@IanTalksAboutStuff Interesting! I don't have HBO so alas, I must wait. In the meantime, I've been thinking of rereading the books again! I honestly don't remember much after The Golden Compass except about two scenes from The Amber Spyglass, so it should be a nice refresher lol
@@AndromedaCripps The BBC series has mainly stayed true to the books (I think, I've only really read up to the scene that was focused on in the video, but intend to read more) but they've also added in parts from Subtle Knife and added a minor subplot to Mrs Coulter within the series. There is a clear intention to create more series focusing on the second and third books in the His Dark Materials trilogy
@@MrsMster I'm hoping that moving pieces of The Subtle Knife to the first season can help the overall pacing. The second book kind of has to run you through Will's whole life right at the beginning and that means Lyra gets a bit shafted. I'd love to see the two get equal screen time from the beginning of the second season.
I read the books several times when I was 10-13 and I was OBSESSED. I used to draw Lyra and Pan in different ways and wanted to name my children after her and Will because I looked up to them so much. But somehow I completely forgot about this beautiful trilogy until today. So now I get to revisit it as an adult thanks to you. Definitely subscribing!
A great close read of what the book scene does and how the adaptation mostly misses it. For my money the series doesn't do any better. In addition to the character moment is functionally omits, it also badly undermines the themes and emotion of the whole book because our really feeling the horror of this discovery is needed going into Bolvangar. And I think this moment is lost in more fundamental ways than a bit of better blocking would fix. For one thing it just doesn't work with Billy instead of Tony Makarios in the same way. You mention the lessened impact for Lyra's sense of bravery, doing this for a friend instead of a stranger and that's a very good point. The other problem is that Billy is a Gyptian and in both movie and TV version his mum is even with the Gyptian group in the North, so the return to the camp just HAS to change and immediately become about her grief. It can' be Lyra uniquely empathising with and defending this horrifying apparition, because the Gyptians would look unforgivably callous if they didn't respond to Billy Costa. It creates this confusion of emotion. We have all these different angles to pay attention to when our focus really should just be with Lyra in this huge moment for her. I can see why both versions (and the play!) changed the kid to Billy because on the surface it streamlines and at first glance gives the scene more impact by making it more personal. But actually it does the opposite for the character that matters, Lyra, and the audience's own sense of pity and horror. I always compare Tony Makarios to the little girl in the red coat in Schindler's List. They are the universal victim, symbolic of the wider horror. Making the Lost Boy Billy doesn't make the drama more effective for the same reason it wouldn't have been an improvement to make the little girl, like, Schindler's niece or something. As someone else phrased it, it stops the moment being about what is happening, and makes it about who it is happening to.
Oh God, you're right. That's why it feels a bit empty by comparison. It's not like it would take much effort to introduce Tony along with Billy and Roger after they get kidnapped, and they could get the same effect in this scene
No adaptation probably could, certain parts need to get cut or shortened to make time for everything else as to not get the viewers too bored. TV series are usually better at showing scenes like the Tony/Billy scene because they have the time to do so (in the BBC series they have 8 episodes lasting an hour, a children's film doesn't really want to exceed 90 minutes), and add more in elsewhere from the book/s (edit: corrected "view" to "viewers")
Could you please do the same about this scene for the BBC series? I mean, ok, it's hard and expensive to have Daemons in every single scene, but, in worrying in this sense I have a feeling that they didn't do justice to the importance of the daemons... Even so, they have kind of , maybe, activelly diverted from it by focusing on Lyra and Marisa's relationship... The profound evil and desolation and well, what you described in this video regarding severing a daemon, isn't there at all. A non-fan of the books wouldn't quite grasp it, and book-fans are gonna get disappointed in the lack of such a weight and inherent geniality of His Dark Materials books... The post intercision attempt scene is saddening in this regard... If you didn't see yet... Also where was the fish!!!?!? Aahhhhhgg!!! The character mostly notorious for the superb interpretation is Marisa and the Golden monkey and their relation, Ruth Wilson and the puppeteers+cgi artists are nailing it... But then how can they succeed so greatly in some ways, and fail so badly in others...? It doesn't make sense... =(
Yeah - the BBC version is far better than the movie but it still comes up short a lot. I understand and don't have a problem with not having a ton of daemons in every scene, but the writing downplays their importance to the point that many show-only viewers I've seen online are consistently confused by scenes related to the daemons because they come off as barely more than sapient pets.
Having never read the books or seen the 2007 film, this scene in the BBC series was actually quite good. The show overall gives a good sense of how important Daemons are to humans, and when this scene came up it definitely triggered a reaction from me. The focus on Lyra's character wasn't quite as elaborate as in the book apparently, but I think it was still fine. The series has a lot of basic storytelling issues unfortunately, but I don't think this was one of them.
Everyone complains about this scene in the series, instead being a series based on my favorite saga of books, I loved the scene of the finding of Billy Costa (yes, I know that in the book was not with Billy Costa , but I don't care), I think the terror, anguish and fear that a character in the world of Lyra notices when being close to a person without Daimonions was better reflected. Ok, it doesn't come out suggesting the fish and? As a scene it is incredible. PS: I am not English, I hope this comment does not seem written by a monkey with a typewriter.
Ahh, bless you. His Dark Materials is such a wonderful series and it is tragic that the movie missed the mark so badly. I sobbed when Tony clutched that dried fish crying out for Ratters. And as you said, Pullman is an incredible author and however alien it is to imagine a daemon and how jarring it would be to be without one, his writing made me feel the same as Lyra, pitiful and sad.
Yep. IMO even worse than the movie. Everything else is better in the show, tho. Especially the last episode, that was fantastic! Still, considering they butchered half of the importance of daemon (they appear as just companion / guide while they are literally your soul manifesting as an animal; they have nothing else in common with animals other than aspect), it's difficult not to be afraid of other scenes they could destroy. MAJOR 3RD BOOK / 3RD SEASON SPOILER: A * really * important scene it's crucial they get right is Lyra's betrayal while leaving for the world of the dead. That's probably one of the most poweful scenes of the book, and every aspect matters: Pan on the shore, the dialog between Lyra and the boatman, the pain Lyra feels (and then everyone else), music, everything. What's probably impossible to put in picture is what Will is feeling about the betrayal - "It was as if he'd said, "No, don't kill me, I'm frightened, kill my mother instead; she doesn't matter, I don't love her," and as if she'd heard him say it, and pretended hadn't so to spare his feelings, and offered herself in his place anyway because of her love for him. He felt as bad as that. There was nothing worse to feel."
It's interesting that you use the word "betrayal" because I think the ambiguity there is part of what makes the scene incredible. To Pan and even to Lyra, leaving him feels like a betrayal. But in the end, both of them know it was a step they had to take, both to act out their destiny and to become stronger. A witch never feels betrayed by her daemon, even though they do the same thing. It's an example of a motif throughout the series, where a child doesn't inherently know what's best for them in the end (although adults often don't either )
@@IanTalksAboutStuff Indeed, it was a necessary step. I chose the word 'betrayal' because the book chooses it as well: "And thus the profecy ... that Lyra would make a great betrayal..." At first, I thought the profecy referred to Roger - but this second betrayal is much worse. Altough both were necessary, it's still hard for Pan to accept what she did (after all, it was her, not him, that pushed away, altough he never tried to stop her, not even by words), even knowing it had to be done. I feel like it's a huge inner fight between the natural response to suffering and the rationale that justifies her action.
I get why it's supposed to be scary and unsettling for the daemon to be unattached/cut in that world but the series is having a hard time doing it. I guess we're used to humans on not being bounded to some supernatural force.
Yeah, not sure if there's a budget/feasibility issue behind it, but I definitely noticed the series fell a bit short on doing the daemons justice, especially in the first season, where there were a few characters whose daemons were never seen once throughout their whole portrayal, and Panteleimon only had a small handful of forms he'd shift to occasionally (a child's daemon seldom transforming is said to be a sign of the child being slow/dull-witted in the books, so you'd think the wily Lyra would have a much more fluid daemon).
I feel like the dead fish is actually a great prop both the movie and the show failed to use. I think it solidifies the loss while adding a twinge of horror. He misses his daemon so much that he's clinging a dead fish.
I just played The Golden Compass game recently (yes, I’m in my huge hype phase with this series) and lemme tell you that the scene of the kid with the dried fish actually appears! I was impressed that they left in the game many relevant stuff from the book that the final version of the movie cut or the tv series did nail -they really recorded them because I’ve seen them as cutscenes-. *SPOILERS:* it ALMOST has the real ending. Begins with Asriel’s plan kidnapping Roger, but stops abruptly at Iorek leaving Lyra in the ice bridge, literally- and the quote of «And then she walked into the sky», fade to black screen and credits. Anyway, I loved your narration/analysis and your passage selection from the book!!
Wow, I've never played the game so I didn't know that scene appeared in it. I'm actually kind of shocked that it deviated from the movie, but glad that it snuck in something important. Thank you for the kind words, and great find!
As someone who doesn’t remember the movie well but is enjoying the BBC series this video has encouraged me to read the books ! i know the books always have more content than tv/movie adaptations but i’m not the best reader and few books keep my attention so i rarely feel the need to read the books after watching the story. here though the writing sounds so good i need to try reading the books!
If I'm being honest I read much less than I used to/want to. It seems so hard to carve out a quiet space for myself and just sit down and do it for hours at a time. If you can only manage to read one book series, though, this is the first one I would recommend.
I heartily recommend the BBC cast audio adaptation if you can find it (I've got it on CD and have listened to it a million times). It includes pretty much everything, and the cast is great.
@@ianulman2935 absolutely! Rereading the book and got to that scene a few days ago, was as tense and gutwrenching as when I read it 10 years ago, that's why I said ah damn, cause it hurts so bad lol
This was a great breakdown and I'm pretty curious if you'll do something similar after HDM's first season is over. Unless something really amazing comes along, im certain that this trilogy will remain as my favorite book series. I have been fairly pleased with the BBC series but they seem to have stumbled after the point where they get Iorek and continue North. Finding Billy/Tony was done better in the show than in the film, but it wasn't quite enough to even compare to the emotions in the book, then Bolvangar was overall very flat because the show just hasn't put in the effort to impress upon us how integral a daemon is to someone's personhood and how unbelievably traumatic being severed would be. And even considering the budget constraints, the scene with the children in Bolvangar just felt super empty. We shouldn't have to hunt the set for the hint of a daemon like some live action 'Where's Waldo?' >:/ Then the Iorek/Iofur fight was rushed and Lyra was cowering at the end of it and im gonna die mad about THAT particular detail. There's a lot of good in this BBC adaptation (I loooooove everything Ruth Wilson is doing even if she's pretty distinct from book!Marisa, it still feels like her) but they're dropping the ball on some very key scenes @.@
I really like Marisa in the show too! She doesn't quite have the same charm and allure that the books built up, but the way she always seems to be slightly unhinged and on the edge of losing it is scary and interesting.
I seem to have carried 'how integral the Dæmon is' from the books into the TV show because I got surprisingly emotional and scared in Bolvanger. I was basically distraught when they found the Dæmon in the boxes. I thought they Dusted, I must have misread it, but it broke my hart to see how purposeless they were without their human, and vice verse with Sister Clara. Also Lyra cowering must have been used for Censorship. We saw Iofur's jaw get lobbed off in the film, why couldn't we more CG violence of just the throats being crushed or whatever? We've seen other characters die, so....!
I think both scenes actually need at least one villager, as a comparison to Lyra. Their reactions give context as to how horrifying it is, and emphasise Lyra's bravery and compassion. Poor Dakota Blue Richards has to basically explain the plot to us in the film, and it falls totally flat 😑 the TV version of this moment was better acted and scripted, but could also have used one extra character to compare to Lyra's actions in the scene
For me it was pretty obvious how important daemons are in this world even without reading the books. It was all there. Characters being in pain when something happened to their daemons and Lyra even said to Mrs. Coulter that it's not natural to be that far away from her daemon. It was said many times that even the thought of them being separated is unbearable. It's obviously a budget thing. Also I think that the scenes in Bolvangar are meant to be as depressing, terrifying and empty as possible. So I don't get this part of the criticism but I guess that's because I haven't read the books. However it's impossible to please everyone with adaptations. I only notices how bad the films is after I saw the series. I still like both though.
Wow, I watched this just a few days ago and now coming back to it....That feeling when the movie actually did the scene somewhat better than the tv show. As much as I like most of the changes they did so far, they utterly failed episode 5. Weak.
Yeah, I agree. The movie actually did a better job with handling Tony/Billy by giving him some actions and a spoken line. The hbo series makes him look like a comatose instead of a confused child.
I don't understand why they're giving so much time to other world sub plot in this season it should of been saved for season 2 it totally ruins the surprise
Jonathan Hall i agree , you see a dude go through a portal, with zero explanation at all. Totally annoying for fans, and confusing for normies. 🤯🤯🤯🤡🤡🤡🌍🌍🌍
@@hanniffydinn6019 I personally like this change since it was mentioned in the books that Boreal has been going back and forth between worlds. I like it because in the books, we mostly have Lyras POV and that is pretty limited. It's interesting to have the plot develop already and see this side of things, also you have anticipation building up for season 2 where Lyra and Will meet. Having no explanation just makes it a mystery to be revealed later on imo.
I am reading 'The Amber Spyglass' at the moment, having devoured the other two books. I have not seen this film but I agree completely with your opinion. Thank you for making this video. It made me love Lyra even more (if that is possible!) Great story telling.
I disagree. It was still unsuccessful, but I did weep at the funeral. But only because a boy was dead, not because the experience for him was abhorrent because the series is finding it hard to describe the daemon relationship.
@@scw55 The series indeed finds it hard to truely show how profoundly important daemons are and their connection to their human. They are more like companion animals than someones full soul, their other half.. That is whet irks me in the series quite a lot but I don't have much other critics and are super gratefull to have more than a movie :3 What I tell myself to feel slightly less disappointed at said critics is budget costs. That they don't have enough budget to fully show the deamons importance. Which is veyr, very sad but again, I am super grateful we at leats have more than one movie now.
@@10animallover10 No. The series is doing it much better than the books,. The books literally go and spell it out. "Daemons are important hurr". It was not done well at all. In the show, you can see every detail of Coulter's complexity in her interactions with her daemon. You're just not paying any attention what-so-ever.
I agree that the show is struggling showing the relationship between humans and dæmons but tbh that makes a lot of sense, in an adaptation you don’t get to see all of Lyras internal monologues and CGI dæmons being hard to implement in every scene. But although they are struggling I think that scene was handled somewhat well, particularly the aftermath. Ma Costa lets her son die because he hasn’t got his dæmon, she knows that he is empty and not there anymore and if a mother letting her child die because he doesn’t have his dæmon doesn’t signify their incredible importance then I don’t know what will. I also think they do a okay job showing Pan and Lyras relationship, the main problem is money constraints but as the show goes on the writing and funding will hopefully improve
We at least will have S1 and 2. They filmed both seasons right after one another. So only S3 is not sure yet as far as I know. Maybe some news pops up about that soon?
@@10animallover10 I want to see the Mulefas and their pod-wheels. How they gonna pull that off. Maybe they'll bring them in on S2 for expediency. But let's hope it goes all the way.
The way the movie handled it, they may as well have just cut the shed scene altogether and left the cutting revelations to the actual facility segment. (Which was also heavily butchered.) I don't have access to HBO so I haven't been able to watch the series adaptation, but I really want to. Giving more runtime is always a step in the right direction for stories that have a lot of finer details and subtleties.
Great video! Let's hope they get this right in the TV adaptation, they already seemed to have reversed the roles of Tony and Billy, so it will be interesting to see how they handle it.
NOOOO THEY FUCKED IT UP, they did a great job showing the grief of the gyptians, but no fish, and no angry lyra, such a great moment for her character gone :(
@@DrinkingMud the tv show is mostly great, but i do think they could've done this scene a lot better unfortunately. billy was a bit too sleepy. the scene was a lot darker though at least.
@@dayglowjoe They did a great job with the tone of the scene, it is very sad and mournful, but I wish they did more to show the fear and revulsion of billy, to drive home how horrible it is to see someone without a daemon. But im more upset there was no fish and no protest from Lyra about it being thrown away, you don't get to see her fiercely compassionate side like in the books.
I've read every single comment of yours and I'm happy to hear it's the one trilogy you'd like everyone to read, I can say the same thing. To me, however, a major mistake is that, seconds after almost being severed, Lyra doesn't even look at Pan, when she should at least be hugging him, maybe passed out of shock while doing so, like in the books. Instead, she acts as if he isn't even there and as if she didn't just have a worse than near-death experience. As someone said, "still not the adaptation we deserve, but a step in the right direction." What do you think?
I agree, that scene really bothered me. I think the TV show is great, but it misses the marks with the deamons pretty consistently. First of all the extras hardly every have any! And secondly, nobody interacts with their damon enough. Lyra hardy touches Pan.
I went back and watched this, and booted up the movie to splice it in because I enjoyed your passion in reading the book passages. It occurred to me that you could salvage the coherence you feel it's missing by perhaps including timestamps in place of the missing clips? That way, people could still check what you were referencing. Either way, thanks for this.
This video is AMAZING. God His Dark Materials really is out of this world, it's so unique and beautiful. I had chills just listening to the excerpts you read, I need to read these books again. I'm enjoying the new TV Show a lot, it's not perfect, but I really feel like they understood the books better !
I agree, both about how good the books are but also about the show. Even if it's flawed most of it just works and feels *right.* I never imagined Lee Scoresby as anything but an old, grizzled cowboy, but LMM is so charismatic that he brings the role to life anyway.
It’s funny how no one likes the movie, and yet it’s the movie that got me interested in the world of the books in the first place. Although I never got a chance to read it... my mom subconsciously and subtly discouraged me from doing so. And being older now, I don’t have the same passion and ease for reading as I used to, nor the time anymore.
I just got back into reading voraciously again the last few months. After high school college had me reading so much for class that I basically forgot how to read for fun.
Will you be doing any analysis on the show? I read the books, then saw the movie (which is a guilty pleasure of mine so sue me), now I’m watching the show. Personally, I love anything to do with His Dark Materials. The big budget for the movie made it LOOK incredible, and the actors did really well I think.
I am currently reading this series-wonderful! There is much in the last book, especially, that would never make it into a film. Anything with context, inner thought, etc. is often left out to make films shorter and because of the difficulties mentioned. I still want to see "The Golden Compass", although I have been warned it is nowhere near as good as the novels. It would be nice if Peter Jackson, or some director willing to do so, would make this trilogy into 3 films-filmed simultaneously.
Warner didn't copyright claim it, someone who isn't Warner did it under false claim of representing Warner. If this someone is collecting money for it, they aren't giving that money to Warner.
Loving this video, loving your voice reading from the book, praying on a new video soon with your opinions about the show, how it compares to the movie and of course the books.
Nice review. I still love the movie and love the tv series now even though it can never be perfect. I in fact think that this specific scene was better done in the movie than the series to be honest. The shack scene in the movie was better, tye funeral in the series (though I dearly missed the dried fish in the series shack AND funeral scene).
One thing you are disregarding is that in the film is that they know the boy, Billy Coster is a child they know and love and were worried about. They also already suspected what they were doing and this was only conformation. However, in the book the child was a stranger and they had no idea what was happening. In the books Lyra was take by surprise by someone she didn’t know and so were the gyptions. These are two completely different situations due to the knowledge they already had in the films.
Instead of adapting this scene straight from the book I felt like the show was trying to do something different with it. We get even less of the same emotions the book was going for, but I felt like it executed on what it was going for much better.
Ian Talks About Stuff That’s fair. I think one thing the show has been struggling to convey is the importance of the daemons when they’re often hidden or not very prominent in scenes due to budget (or in Boreal’s case, plot) reasons, so the scene of actually finding Billy has a lot less impact. (I also think leaving out the dead fish was a mistake. It was an important factor in showing how Billy/Tony’s daemon is not just hiding, but completely gone.) However, the scene with Billy’s mother and brother was excellently done and watching him die in his mother’s arms hit hard.
@@IndigoNeutrino For sure. One of the ways the show benefited from merging Billy Costa and Tony Makarios is that we actually get to see they boy's mother, and it really helped Ma Costa glow. She feels like a much richer character in the show than the books OR the movie.
I really loved Lyra repeating Iorek's "I shall conquer my fear." The show did not try for a 1:1 adaptation - like the video said, an omniscient narrator makes it just easier to show a nuanced inner conflict - but it did well enough imo.
I once read the beginning of the book (I’m not sure how far I got) but I had to give the book back to the library and didn’t finish it. I might try to reread it someday.
Everyone blaming the director or the editor or even the movie company. guys, I was reading articles when this movie came out that said exactly what the problem was. Nicole Kidman was being a massively horrible person and threatening to pull her role if they didn't change things in the film to suit her ideas. She's a massive Christian and she hated the anti-religious sentiments in the books.
In the film, Ma Costa seemed to take it for granted that Billy didn’t have a daemon. She should have run towards him and stopped in shock and fear when she realised his daemon was gone.
I agree. It's very explainable that she knew he didn't have one (her daemon can feel that and tell her mentally), but finding your son without a daemon is like (worse than, actually) finding him without a head. Sure, he's your child, but he's literally no longer human. No hesitation, at all?
Agreed. I really hope the y do it well in the show. The movie COMPLETELY screwed this up. They made it as if he just lost his pet or something. Ugh. But it highlights what is wrong with this film.
@@IanTalksAboutStuff your reading of the book and movie scene was so spot on, thank you. Now the TV episode: no fish, not even a mention of ratter. What is there left to say.
Produced but not directed. And produced by many others. It seemes like his view was changed, once again. As someone said, "still not the adaptation we deserve, but it's a step in the right direction."
I'd argue that the kid being Billy did better portray that the General Oblation Board was ruthless, by giving Lyra, and therefore the audience, more of a connection. In the book, it was awful, but it wouldn't linger as long as it would've with a better known character.
Please do read or listen to the books. If you want to listen to it, be careful that you choose the audioBOOKS and not the audioPLAY since the BBC did an official radioplay version of the whole trilogy and people have complained that 'it's not the full books' because they didn't look at what they were ordering.
I suppose now I'll have to ask for you or Dom Smith to do a Lost In Adaption style thing on Books VS Film, TV show and radioplay. I need to listen to the radio play again now so I can compare this scene to the other two. (Speaking of which, after hearing the Harpies in the radioplay, I'm so intrigued hear and see them and the Mulefa in the TV show.) And if I do my own amateur version, I may well do it improved compared to the bigwigs and that surprises me.
C'mon, I read the books and I watched both, the movie and the show from BBC, and the scene from the BBC wasn't bad, actually, I believe that the tv show is great.
Still doesn’t make any sense, that she would ask “herself” or anyone else, something she was already very well aware of.just feels like clumsy writing. The same way a mistake in the editing of a film will catch your attention. I didn’t think that she had forgotten, in the context of the scene, that would have been highly unlikely.
so is the first book in HDM Northern Lights, or the Golden Compass? I've seen it written and called both. the version I have is Northern Lights, but the movie was the Golden Compass. help.
The Northern Lights is the original British title, but the worldwide release is The Golden Compass, as are adaptations like the movie. I'm American and grew up with the Golden Compass so that's all I know it by, but the Northern Lights is the same book.
@@ianulman2935 Didn't they refer to the alethiometer as the golden compass in the film too? I'm getting second hand rage from my past self being patronised by the dumbing down treatment they gave the movie.
There are a whole lot of bad adaptations out there, so trying to pick "the worst" would be a pretty monumental task. Honestly it would probably be some direct-to-TV movie that no one's ever heard of.
@@IanTalksAboutStuff I don't aspect much from a direct to tv movie but from big companies who puts lots of money in a project I want to see an awesome adaptation, The Golden Compass wasn't so great because of production problems and people who didn't understand the books but I can say at least the story is there and the characters were not ruined that much. Dragon Ball evolution in the other hand is terrible in everything, the characters, the story, the setting that thing is horrible to watch.
Okay. I get your examples, but the kid who plays Lyra is very stiff. She’s just not very good. She only had to show fear and compassion, those are partly external in the world, just not from this kid. She can only be frowny or kind of flat. Idk.
the movie sucked because they made a lot of cuts thus ending into a terribly confusing cliffhanger. if you watch the clip you'll see how it was supposed to end th-cam.com/video/JWM3XrnlNTU/w-d-xo.html
One of the opening pages of my copy of Northern lights says that it's meant to be pronounced like the english word demon. The fact that you didn't trust the movie to get even that right is telling.
Well the film is there, it was destroyed in the edit, insiders have written about the real edit....it was definitely there...seems the Catholic Church didn’t like it, and pulled their strings...🤯🤯🤯🤯🤡🤡🤡🤡🌍🌍🌍🌍🌍🌍🌍
Uh, no. Not to be contrarian. You're not supposed to "like" the protagonist "at least a bit" you're supposed to understand them. Find them interesting. - Pity maybe. Likeability is too narrow.
@@Roadent1241 it's inappropiate at best. at the very least, since you wouldn't say that in front of a person with down syndrome, then don't say it out in public. you never know who could be reading
I actually quite like how the BBC series does this scene. It's so traumatic that Billy loses Ratter that he completely gives up and as soon as his mum reassures him he lets go. He's so alone that he can't go on anymore. I do think it's better that they have Billy rather than Tony from the books, especially since Tony Costa is such a big character in this version
I thought he died of the elements because Arctic effectively, it didn't quite make sense to me that not having your Dæmon connected would kill you, especially since the TV show showed the Dæmon didn't Dust (and stayed alive but purposeless) like I figured is what killed them.
@@Roadent1241 In both the books and the TV show they say that they have a new separation machine that doesn't kill as many of the children. For the adults, it seems to be ok, but the younger you are (Billie is only about 7) the more difficult it to survive. He managed to survive the cold for quite a long time and died after being rescued, so if he died from the elements I would have expected him to have died before
Ani Searle fair enough. It's kind of amazing how strong a will humans have. He just wanted to say goodbye and make sure his mum knew he was around until that moment.
@@Roadent1241 Yeah! That's exactly what I thought. I mean, my Mum is skiing to the South Pole atm basically just because she can- it's taking an enormous amount of will as she's not seen another living being for about 3 and a half weeks now
Ani Searle Blimey, I wish her good luck!
The issue wasn't writing or directing. The issue was executives wanting to make money on something controversial, then getting cold feet that it wouldn't make money due to being controversial. The film had a great director, cast, and effects, but was butchered by the bottom line, which, ironically, probably lost them more money in the long run.
Actually, part of the problem was Nicole Kidman putting massive pressure on the film to not be overly negative towards Christianity. She is/was a very ardent Christian during the filming and didn't want the movie to be harsh towards her faith so she used her star power to make it very politically correct in all aspects
@@Dave-sk9mn Nicole Kidman?? Was she in HDM?? I know that she was in the 2007 movie, but what does the cast of that movie have to do with this new tv series?? Also, even though I know Pullman's story behind his books was from a highly atheistic perpective, his books aren't explicitly "against Christianity" as you say. Although "the Authority" is killed, there is not much mention of Jesus, Mary or any other typical Christian figures. It is more against the idea of Monotheism, rather than Christianity.
@@eliyasara9786 Kidmen put massive pressure on the film to remove parts against Christianity, it was references to the Church, to faith and belief, to God etc.
She is/was a very strong believer in the Faith of Christianity and no matter how you argue it, Pullmans work is a condemnation of the three variants of the Abrahamic faiths.
@@Dave-sk9mn It is a condemnation of monotheism and sometimes (very rarely) mentions "Our Lord" or something similar, but even though I understand that Pullman is hugely anti-Christianity, it is still very subtle in the books.I feel like it is more "anti any heavenly authority". Also, I am talking about the TV series, not the film. I don't know how Kidman could have influensed the TV series because they aren't linked.
@@eliyasara9786
Yes
Because the the first book takes place in an alternate reality where things went slightly differently than in ours. So when you hear "The Authority" it is identical to a person from our reality saying "Lord and Savour" or "God". The fact that the second and third books go into far more detail about it, from Angels to the Fall, it is meant to be a condemnation of Christianity.
The TV series as a whole is fine - I have 1 issue with it and its the radio broadcast of Will's "crime" and naming him 15, that leads to a whole swarm of unfortunate implications for the end of book 3/series 3 if they get to it - and I've not said a thing about the TV series, Kidman has nothing to do with the Series at all.
She was a very big A-Lister when the film came out and her name delivered a lot of clout in Hollywood and the public. She threatened to pull her name and her role from the FILM if they didn't remove overt Christian symbols and iconography. Which tanked the film and ultimately her career as an A-Lister, go check her IMdB...its a list of massive secondary roles and indie/failed films from 2008 onwards.
People reacted badly to how she was linked to the destruction of what could have been a decent set of fantasy films and the public reacted badly to it.
Go back, check the old reviews on places like IMdB and Metacritic for peoples views on Kidman's involvement in tanking the film.
Opening with that cursed crap that was the Eragon movie, classic.
I was not a fan of that movie and felt like it was the perfect poster child for "adaptation gone wrong."
@@IanTalksAboutStuff do you like the new tv series? because i do
@@abizarrespirit1329 I do! Quite a lot.
@@IanTalksAboutStuff yea same
To be fair to the movie, while the acting, set design and directing was very lack luster, almost all the changes it made to the script were pretty smart decisions given the layout of the book.
the book establishes how repulsive and revolting it is to have a person without a daemon, over and over again. What stood out to me was Pullman saying it was akin to seeing a person without their head; that did it for me. Both movie and TV show unfortunately didn't get this important nuance about a person and a daemon's relationship, and I feel like it wasn't so hard to write that aspect in. it has nothing to do with special effects or the actors; just writing, plain and simple.
Yeah, the Daemon is also basically the person’s soul embodied into physical form , so people without Daemon’s would essentially be soulless people where al the light/lufe has been sucked out.
I think the TV show did a good job. Not as rich and filled as the book, but they were certainly aiming for an unsettling atmosphere and a darker tone and they succeeded.
It's hard to pack dialogues, thoughts, world building subtext and character development in a single scene/sequence and make it work, even more so in a 50 minutes TV episode, but you can tell they're trying to tell a good story and I appreciate that.
Cool video. Thanks.
Yeah, I mostly think the show was going for something different. Rather than developing Lyra's character individually, it felt like they used that scene to have her bond with Ma Costa and Lee Scoresby. Not how I would have done it but the moment still had emotional impact.
Man, I could listen to an entire audiobook voiced by you
Oh wow seeing that Eragon seen first off gave me nostalgia.
I read all the books as a kid and ngl the film did disappoint me
Yeah when I watched it after loving the books I just didn't feel any of the same attachment, especially to Eragon who felt incredibly flat to me.
I just have to say that even though I know this scene well, hearing the paragraph about the fish and the child having no daemon gave me chills!
I absolutely loved these books and when I saw the film I was too young to really understand any of the intricacies of literature so I loved it.mow there's a BBC/HBO series that looks really really well done with a huge budget, so hopefully that means they have a director and adapters passionate about the books.
Yeah I'm really enjoying the series. It's made several changes from the books, but importantly the changes all feel to me like they have a purpose and are trying to say something significant, even if the message is different from the books.
@@IanTalksAboutStuff Interesting! I don't have HBO so alas, I must wait. In the meantime, I've been thinking of rereading the books again! I honestly don't remember much after The Golden Compass except about two scenes from The Amber Spyglass, so it should be a nice refresher lol
@@AndromedaCripps The BBC series has mainly stayed true to the books (I think, I've only really read up to the scene that was focused on in the video, but intend to read more) but they've also added in parts from Subtle Knife and added a minor subplot to Mrs Coulter within the series. There is a clear intention to create more series focusing on the second and third books in the His Dark Materials trilogy
@@MrsMster I'm hoping that moving pieces of The Subtle Knife to the first season can help the overall pacing. The second book kind of has to run you through Will's whole life right at the beginning and that means Lyra gets a bit shafted. I'd love to see the two get equal screen time from the beginning of the second season.
Texadon the Blue Kitty Do you get BBC instead?
The movie was butchered in editing by New Line.
I read the books several times when I was 10-13 and I was OBSESSED. I used to draw Lyra and Pan in different ways and wanted to name my children after her and Will because I looked up to them so much. But somehow I completely forgot about this beautiful trilogy until today. So now I get to revisit it as an adult thanks to you. Definitely subscribing!
A great close read of what the book scene does and how the adaptation mostly misses it. For my money the series doesn't do any better. In addition to the character moment is functionally omits, it also badly undermines the themes and emotion of the whole book because our really feeling the horror of this discovery is needed going into Bolvangar.
And I think this moment is lost in more fundamental ways than a bit of better blocking would fix. For one thing it just doesn't work with Billy instead of Tony Makarios in the same way. You mention the lessened impact for Lyra's sense of bravery, doing this for a friend instead of a stranger and that's a very good point. The other problem is that Billy is a Gyptian and in both movie and TV version his mum is even with the Gyptian group in the North, so the return to the camp just HAS to change and immediately become about her grief. It can' be Lyra uniquely empathising with and defending this horrifying apparition, because the Gyptians would look unforgivably callous if they didn't respond to Billy Costa.
It creates this confusion of emotion. We have all these different angles to pay attention to when our focus really should just be with Lyra in this huge moment for her.
I can see why both versions (and the play!) changed the kid to Billy because on the surface it streamlines and at first glance gives the scene more impact by making it more personal. But actually it does the opposite for the character that matters, Lyra, and the audience's own sense of pity and horror.
I always compare Tony Makarios to the little girl in the red coat in Schindler's List. They are the universal victim, symbolic of the wider horror. Making the Lost Boy Billy doesn't make the drama more effective for the same reason it wouldn't have been an improvement to make the little girl, like, Schindler's niece or something. As someone else phrased it, it stops the moment being about what is happening, and makes it about who it is happening to.
Oh God, you're right. That's why it feels a bit empty by comparison. It's not like it would take much effort to introduce Tony along with Billy and Roger after they get kidnapped, and they could get the same effect in this scene
The series is not HBO work but BBC!!
I was about to comment this! HBO just have the licence to show it in America/internationally but it was made by BBC studios for the BBC
I understood it was a collab between both studios. ~shrug~ For the Big American Actionness but the accents and stuff of Britain.
and New Line Cinema -> Time Warner -> HBO, everything is the same
Then why is HBO the literal first thing to see when a new episode starts.
@@joeya.1043 Because I imagine they shot it with the American company so if course that comes first.
Thanks for the video. Brought back memories of the book. Both the film and TV series didn’t capture the majesty of the book scene.
No adaptation probably could, certain parts need to get cut or shortened to make time for everything else as to not get the viewers too bored. TV series are usually better at showing scenes like the Tony/Billy scene because they have the time to do so (in the BBC series they have 8 episodes lasting an hour, a children's film doesn't really want to exceed 90 minutes), and add more in elsewhere from the book/s
(edit: corrected "view" to "viewers")
Could you please do the same about this scene for the BBC series?
I mean, ok, it's hard and expensive to have Daemons in every single scene, but, in worrying in this sense I have a feeling that they didn't do justice to the importance of the daemons...
Even so, they have kind of , maybe, activelly diverted from it by focusing on Lyra and Marisa's relationship...
The profound evil and desolation and well, what you described in this video regarding severing a daemon, isn't there at all. A non-fan of the books wouldn't quite grasp it, and book-fans are gonna get disappointed in the lack of such a weight and inherent geniality of His Dark Materials books...
The post intercision attempt scene is saddening in this regard... If you didn't see yet...
Also where was the fish!!!?!? Aahhhhhgg!!!
The character mostly notorious for the superb interpretation is Marisa and the Golden monkey and their relation, Ruth Wilson and the puppeteers+cgi artists are nailing it...
But then how can they succeed so greatly in some ways, and fail so badly in others...? It doesn't make sense... =(
Yeah - the BBC version is far better than the movie but it still comes up short a lot. I understand and don't have a problem with not having a ton of daemons in every scene, but the writing downplays their importance to the point that many show-only viewers I've seen online are consistently confused by scenes related to the daemons because they come off as barely more than sapient pets.
Having never read the books or seen the 2007 film, this scene in the BBC series was actually quite good. The show overall gives a good sense of how important Daemons are to humans, and when this scene came up it definitely triggered a reaction from me.
The focus on Lyra's character wasn't quite as elaborate as in the book apparently, but I think it was still fine.
The series has a lot of basic storytelling issues unfortunately, but I don't think this was one of them.
Everyone complains about this scene in the series, instead being a series based on my favorite saga of books, I loved the scene of the finding of Billy Costa (yes, I know that in the book was not with Billy Costa , but I don't care), I think the terror, anguish and fear that a character in the world of Lyra notices when being close to a person without Daimonions was better reflected. Ok, it doesn't come out suggesting the fish and? As a scene it is incredible.
PS: I am not English, I hope this comment does not seem written by a monkey with a typewriter.
Ahh, bless you. His Dark Materials is such a wonderful series and it is tragic that the movie missed the mark so badly.
I sobbed when Tony clutched that dried fish crying out for Ratters. And as you said, Pullman is an incredible author and however alien it is to imagine a daemon and how jarring it would be to be without one, his writing made me feel the same as Lyra, pitiful and sad.
Sadly, it was just as bad in the tv show.
I don't know how they'll portray the land of the dead part which is even more crushing.
Yep. IMO even worse than the movie. Everything else is better in the show, tho. Especially the last episode, that was fantastic! Still, considering they butchered half of the importance of daemon (they appear as just companion / guide while they are literally your soul manifesting as an animal; they have nothing else in common with animals other than aspect), it's difficult not to be afraid of other scenes they could destroy. MAJOR 3RD BOOK / 3RD SEASON SPOILER: A * really * important scene it's crucial they get right is Lyra's betrayal while leaving for the world of the dead. That's probably one of the most poweful scenes of the book, and every aspect matters: Pan on the shore, the dialog between Lyra and the boatman, the pain Lyra feels (and then everyone else), music, everything. What's probably impossible to put in picture is what Will is feeling about the betrayal - "It was as if he'd said, "No, don't kill me, I'm frightened, kill my mother instead; she doesn't matter, I don't love her," and as if she'd heard him say it, and pretended hadn't so to spare his feelings, and offered herself in his place anyway because of her love for him. He felt as bad as that. There was nothing worse to feel."
It's interesting that you use the word "betrayal" because I think the ambiguity there is part of what makes the scene incredible. To Pan and even to Lyra, leaving him feels like a betrayal. But in the end, both of them know it was a step they had to take, both to act out their destiny and to become stronger. A witch never feels betrayed by her daemon, even though they do the same thing. It's an example of a motif throughout the series, where a child doesn't inherently know what's best for them in the end (although adults often don't either )
Tbh when the grim boatman reveals the fate of people who commit suicide, that is heart wrenching as well.
@@t.hussain921 Indeed, I forgot about this passage. I'm already re-reading for the n th time tho :p
@@IanTalksAboutStuff Indeed, it was a necessary step. I chose the word 'betrayal' because the book chooses it as well: "And thus the profecy ... that Lyra would make a great betrayal..." At first, I thought the profecy referred to Roger - but this second betrayal is much worse. Altough both were necessary, it's still hard for Pan to accept what she did (after all, it was her, not him, that pushed away, altough he never tried to stop her, not even by words), even knowing it had to be done. I feel like it's a huge inner fight between the natural response to suffering and the rationale that justifies her action.
I get why it's supposed to be scary and unsettling for the daemon to be unattached/cut in that world but the series is having a hard time doing it. I guess we're used to humans on not being bounded to some supernatural force.
Yeah, not sure if there's a budget/feasibility issue behind it, but I definitely noticed the series fell a bit short on doing the daemons justice, especially in the first season, where there were a few characters whose daemons were never seen once throughout their whole portrayal, and Panteleimon only had a small handful of forms he'd shift to occasionally (a child's daemon seldom transforming is said to be a sign of the child being slow/dull-witted in the books, so you'd think the wily Lyra would have a much more fluid daemon).
I feel like the dead fish is actually a great prop both the movie and the show failed to use. I think it solidifies the loss while adding a twinge of horror. He misses his daemon so much that he's clinging a dead fish.
I just played The Golden Compass game recently (yes, I’m in my huge hype phase with this series) and lemme tell you that the scene of the kid with the dried fish actually appears! I was impressed that they left in the game many relevant stuff from the book that the final version of the movie cut or the tv series did nail -they really recorded them because I’ve seen them as cutscenes-.
*SPOILERS:* it ALMOST has the real ending. Begins with Asriel’s plan kidnapping Roger, but stops abruptly at Iorek leaving Lyra in the ice bridge, literally- and the quote of «And then she walked into the sky», fade to black screen and credits.
Anyway, I loved your narration/analysis and your passage selection from the book!!
Wow, I've never played the game so I didn't know that scene appeared in it. I'm actually kind of shocked that it deviated from the movie, but glad that it snuck in something important.
Thank you for the kind words, and great find!
As someone who doesn’t remember the movie well but is enjoying the BBC series this video has encouraged me to read the books !
i know the books always have more content than tv/movie adaptations but i’m not the best reader and few books keep my attention so i rarely feel the need to read the books after watching the story.
here though the writing sounds so good i need to try reading the books!
If I'm being honest I read much less than I used to/want to. It seems so hard to carve out a quiet space for myself and just sit down and do it for hours at a time. If you can only manage to read one book series, though, this is the first one I would recommend.
I heartily recommend the BBC cast audio adaptation if you can find it (I've got it on CD and have listened to it a million times). It includes pretty much everything, and the cast is great.
PoloElefante thanks i’ll check that out !
@@Finn-fm5cx no problem ;)
Was wondering which scene as soon as you said it was about those two traveling in the north I was like "ah damn its fish boy"
Hah. It's an important one!
@@ianulman2935 absolutely! Rereading the book and got to that scene a few days ago, was as tense and gutwrenching as when I read it 10 years ago, that's why I said ah damn, cause it hurts so bad lol
HIS NAME WAS TONY MAKARIOS *says it like the Fight Club guy*
This was a great breakdown and I'm pretty curious if you'll do something similar after HDM's first season is over.
Unless something really amazing comes along, im certain that this trilogy will remain as my favorite book series. I have been fairly pleased with the BBC series but they seem to have stumbled after the point where they get Iorek and continue North.
Finding Billy/Tony was done better in the show than in the film, but it wasn't quite enough to even compare to the emotions in the book, then Bolvangar was overall very flat because the show just hasn't put in the effort to impress upon us how integral a daemon is to someone's personhood and how unbelievably traumatic being severed would be. And even considering the budget constraints, the scene with the children in Bolvangar just felt super empty. We shouldn't have to hunt the set for the hint of a daemon like some live action 'Where's Waldo?' >:/
Then the Iorek/Iofur fight was rushed and Lyra was cowering at the end of it and im gonna die mad about THAT particular detail.
There's a lot of good in this BBC adaptation (I loooooove everything Ruth Wilson is doing even if she's pretty distinct from book!Marisa, it still feels like her) but they're dropping the ball on some very key scenes @.@
I really like Marisa in the show too! She doesn't quite have the same charm and allure that the books built up, but the way she always seems to be slightly unhinged and on the edge of losing it is scary and interesting.
I seem to have carried 'how integral the Dæmon is' from the books into the TV show because I got surprisingly emotional and scared in Bolvanger. I was basically distraught when they found the Dæmon in the boxes. I thought they Dusted, I must have misread it, but it broke my hart to see how purposeless they were without their human, and vice verse with Sister Clara.
Also Lyra cowering must have been used for Censorship. We saw Iofur's jaw get lobbed off in the film, why couldn't we more CG violence of just the throats being crushed or whatever? We've seen other characters die, so....!
I think both scenes actually need at least one villager, as a comparison to Lyra. Their reactions give context as to how horrifying it is, and emphasise Lyra's bravery and compassion. Poor Dakota Blue Richards has to basically explain the plot to us in the film, and it falls totally flat 😑 the TV version of this moment was better acted and scripted, but could also have used one extra character to compare to Lyra's actions in the scene
@@TwelvetreeZ I will keep that in mind if I ever decide to do my own audioplay version.
For me it was pretty obvious how important daemons are in this world even without reading the books. It was all there. Characters being in pain when something happened to their daemons and Lyra even said to Mrs. Coulter that it's not natural to be that far away from her daemon. It was said many times that even the thought of them being separated is unbearable. It's obviously a budget thing. Also I think that the scenes in Bolvangar are meant to be as depressing, terrifying and empty as possible. So I don't get this part of the criticism but I guess that's because I haven't read the books. However it's impossible to please everyone with adaptations. I only notices how bad the films is after I saw the series. I still like both though.
This story made me cry more than once
Wow, I watched this just a few days ago and now coming back to it....That feeling when the movie actually did the scene somewhat better than the tv show. As much as I like most of the changes they did so far, they utterly failed episode 5. Weak.
Yeah, I agree. The movie actually did a better job with handling Tony/Billy by giving him some actions and a spoken line. The hbo series makes him look like a comatose instead of a confused child.
I don't understand why they're giving so much time to other world sub plot in this season it should of been saved for season 2 it totally ruins the surprise
Jonathan Hall i agree , you see a dude go through a portal, with zero explanation at all. Totally annoying for fans, and confusing for normies. 🤯🤯🤯🤡🤡🤡🌍🌍🌍
@@hanniffydinn6019 I personally like this change since it was mentioned in the books that Boreal has been going back and forth between worlds. I like it because in the books, we mostly have Lyras POV and that is pretty limited. It's interesting to have the plot develop already and see this side of things, also you have anticipation building up for season 2 where Lyra and Will meet. Having no explanation just makes it a mystery to be revealed later on imo.
@@hanniffydinn6019 my dad didn't even notice that the world's changed even though there were suddenly cars and phones
I am reading 'The Amber Spyglass' at the moment, having devoured the other two books. I have not seen this film but I agree completely with your opinion.
Thank you for making this video. It made me love Lyra even more (if that is possible!)
Great story telling.
Wellp... just watched BBC's/HBO's take on it and yeah.. seems like they failed even harder with this scene :/
RTD Laboratories “even harder” is a bit of a reach
I disagree. It was still unsuccessful, but I did weep at the funeral. But only because a boy was dead, not because the experience for him was abhorrent because the series is finding it hard to describe the daemon relationship.
@@scw55 The series indeed finds it hard to truely show how profoundly important daemons are and their connection to their human. They are more like companion animals than someones full soul, their other half.. That is whet irks me in the series quite a lot but I don't have much other critics and are super gratefull to have more than a movie :3 What I tell myself to feel slightly less disappointed at said critics is budget costs. That they don't have enough budget to fully show the deamons importance. Which is veyr, very sad but again, I am super grateful we at leats have more than one movie now.
@@10animallover10 No. The series is doing it much better than the books,. The books literally go and spell it out. "Daemons are important hurr". It was not done well at all. In the show, you can see every detail of Coulter's complexity in her interactions with her daemon. You're just not paying any attention what-so-ever.
I agree that the show is struggling showing the relationship between humans and dæmons but tbh that makes a lot of sense, in an adaptation you don’t get to see all of Lyras internal monologues and CGI dæmons being hard to implement in every scene. But although they are struggling I think that scene was handled somewhat well, particularly the aftermath. Ma Costa lets her son die because he hasn’t got his dæmon, she knows that he is empty and not there anymore and if a mother letting her child die because he doesn’t have his dæmon doesn’t signify their incredible importance then I don’t know what will. I also think they do a okay job showing Pan and Lyras relationship, the main problem is money constraints but as the show goes on the writing and funding will hopefully improve
Hope there's enough interest, and budget for BBC/HBO to complete the trilogy.
We at least will have S1 and 2. They filmed both seasons right after one another. So only S3 is not sure yet as far as I know. Maybe some news pops up about that soon?
@@10animallover10 I want to see the Mulefas and their pod-wheels. How they gonna pull that off. Maybe they'll bring them in on S2 for expediency. But let's hope it goes all the way.
The way the movie handled it, they may as well have just cut the shed scene altogether and left the cutting revelations to the actual facility segment. (Which was also heavily butchered.) I don't have access to HBO so I haven't been able to watch the series adaptation, but I really want to. Giving more runtime is always a step in the right direction for stories that have a lot of finer details and subtleties.
littlekitsune1 its a bbc show so if you have access to bbc you can watch it
@@raahimas2776 only in the UK. If you're in the UK you can watch it for free on BBC iPlayer.
that was a great video, thank you fopr making it ... I hope to see more content about his dark materials from you
I found the text on screen a little hard to read - perhaps change the font colour to something darker
Great video! Let's hope they get this right in the TV adaptation, they already seemed to have reversed the roles of Tony and Billy, so it will be interesting to see how they handle it.
Yeah. Like I said in the video, sometimes you have to simplify things, we just gotta hope they do it in a way where the story still works.
NOOOO THEY FUCKED IT UP, they did a great job showing the grief of the gyptians, but no fish, and no angry lyra, such a great moment for her character gone :(
@@DrinkingMud the tv show is mostly great, but i do think they could've done this scene a lot better unfortunately. billy was a bit too sleepy. the scene was a lot darker though at least.
@@dayglowjoe They did a great job with the tone of the scene, it is very sad and mournful, but I wish they did more to show the fear and revulsion of billy, to drive home how horrible it is to see someone without a daemon. But im more upset there was no fish and no protest from Lyra about it being thrown away, you don't get to see her fiercely compassionate side like in the books.
The movie and show could never make me cry
I've read every single comment of yours and I'm happy to hear it's the one trilogy you'd like everyone to read, I can say the same thing. To me, however, a major mistake is that, seconds after almost being severed, Lyra doesn't even look at Pan, when she should at least be hugging him, maybe passed out of shock while doing so, like in the books. Instead, she acts as if he isn't even there and as if she didn't just have a worse than near-death experience. As someone said, "still not the adaptation we deserve, but a step in the right direction." What do you think?
I agree, that scene really bothered me. I think the TV show is great, but it misses the marks with the deamons pretty consistently. First of all the extras hardly every have any! And secondly, nobody interacts with their damon enough. Lyra hardy touches Pan.
I went back and watched this, and booted up the movie to splice it in because I enjoyed your passion in reading the book passages. It occurred to me that you could salvage the coherence you feel it's missing by perhaps including timestamps in place of the missing clips? That way, people could still check what you were referencing. Either way, thanks for this.
I like listening to you read.
Thank you! That's really nice to hear.
This video is AMAZING. God His Dark Materials really is out of this world, it's so unique and beautiful. I had chills just listening to the excerpts you read, I need to read these books again. I'm enjoying the new TV Show a lot, it's not perfect, but I really feel like they understood the books better !
I agree, both about how good the books are but also about the show. Even if it's flawed most of it just works and feels *right.* I never imagined Lee Scoresby as anything but an old, grizzled cowboy, but LMM is so charismatic that he brings the role to life anyway.
It’s funny how no one likes the movie, and yet it’s the movie that got me interested in the world of the books in the first place. Although I never got a chance to read it... my mom subconsciously and subtly discouraged me from doing so. And being older now, I don’t have the same passion and ease for reading as I used to, nor the time anymore.
I just got back into reading voraciously again the last few months. After high school college had me reading so much for class that I basically forgot how to read for fun.
Will you be doing any analysis on the show? I read the books, then saw the movie (which is a guilty pleasure of mine so sue me), now I’m watching the show. Personally, I love anything to do with His Dark Materials. The big budget for the movie made it LOOK incredible, and the actors did really well I think.
you've peeked my interest to finally start reading these books...
I'm glad! If I could get everyone I met to watch one trilogy, it would be this one.
You'll be glad to read them. They are one of the best books I have ever read. So well written, with a great plot and loveable characters
Great video! I really hope you discuss the way the HBO series handled this same sequence, I'd really enjoy hearing your thoughts on it!
BBC* series technically!
I am currently reading this series-wonderful! There is much in the last book, especially, that would never make it into a film. Anything with context, inner thought, etc. is often left out to make films shorter and because of the difficulties mentioned. I still want to see "The Golden Compass", although I have been warned it is nowhere near as good as the novels. It would be nice if Peter Jackson, or some director willing to do so, would make this trilogy into 3 films-filmed simultaneously.
Daemons are supposed to be our conscious lol
Ha ha, I seem to recall one moment where Pantaleimon turns into some sort of insect, and I got Pinocchio flashbacks.
i still cry when i hear these book passages.
The writing is so good. I've always loved the story but as I get older, more and more I appreciate how beautiful almost every sentence of it is.
I'm confused, how can you have made this more than brilliant video - and not much else???
Hands up who else thought this was going to be about the movie just not having an ending.
Warner didn't copyright claim it, someone who isn't Warner did it under false claim of representing Warner. If this someone is collecting money for it, they aren't giving that money to Warner.
Loving this video, loving your voice reading from the book, praying on a new video soon with your opinions about the show, how it compares to the movie and of course the books.
Its a wonderful story and wonderfully written
Nice review. I still love the movie and love the tv series now even though it can never be perfect. I in fact think that this specific scene was better done in the movie than the series to be honest. The shack scene in the movie was better, tye funeral in the series (though I dearly missed the dried fish in the series shack AND funeral scene).
One thing you are disregarding is that in the film is that they know the boy, Billy Coster is a child they know and love and were worried about. They also already suspected what they were doing and this was only conformation. However, in the book the child was a stranger and they had no idea what was happening. In the books Lyra was take by surprise by someone she didn’t know and so were the gyptions.
These are two completely different situations due to the knowledge they already had in the films.
The TV series dedicated an entire episode to this part of the plot and still did a worse job of it than the movie.
Instead of adapting this scene straight from the book I felt like the show was trying to do something different with it. We get even less of the same emotions the book was going for, but I felt like it executed on what it was going for much better.
Ian Talks About Stuff That’s fair. I think one thing the show has been struggling to convey is the importance of the daemons when they’re often hidden or not very prominent in scenes due to budget (or in Boreal’s case, plot) reasons, so the scene of actually finding Billy has a lot less impact. (I also think leaving out the dead fish was a mistake. It was an important factor in showing how Billy/Tony’s daemon is not just hiding, but completely gone.) However, the scene with Billy’s mother and brother was excellently done and watching him die in his mother’s arms hit hard.
@@IndigoNeutrino For sure. One of the ways the show benefited from merging Billy Costa and Tony Makarios is that we actually get to see they boy's mother, and it really helped Ma Costa glow. She feels like a much richer character in the show than the books OR the movie.
I really loved Lyra repeating Iorek's "I shall conquer my fear." The show did not try for a 1:1 adaptation - like the video said, an omniscient narrator makes it just easier to show a nuanced inner conflict - but it did well enough imo.
I once read the beginning of the book (I’m not sure how far I got) but I had to give the book back to the library and didn’t finish it. I might try to reread it someday.
Cool analysis.
So... what are your thoughts now?
I haven't read the books, but I'm enjoying and admiring HIS DARK MATERIALS (at least, so far).
Daniel V. Read the books 📚
You won’t be disappointed
That scene is just equally bad in the show.
I love all "Bad" Movies like Eragon, Golend Compass and Avatar the last airbender as a child
@Saspuer26 I watched more than 1000 movies from old too new.. only in 2019 I was 20 times in cinema , I think my Movies taste is not this bad:D
Everyone blaming the director or the editor or even the movie company.
guys, I was reading articles when this movie came out that said exactly what the problem was.
Nicole Kidman was being a massively horrible person and threatening to pull her role if they didn't change things in the film to suit her ideas. She's a massive Christian and she hated the anti-religious sentiments in the books.
In the film, Ma Costa seemed to take it for granted that Billy didn’t have a daemon. She should have run towards him and stopped in shock and fear when she realised his daemon was gone.
I agree. It's very explainable that she knew he didn't have one (her daemon can feel that and tell her mentally), but finding your son without a daemon is like (worse than, actually) finding him without a head. Sure, he's your child, but he's literally no longer human. No hesitation, at all?
Everyone in the comments forgot that Tony Costa and Tony Makarios are different characters
Agreed. I really hope the y do it well in the show. The movie COMPLETELY screwed this up. They made it as if he just lost his pet or something. Ugh. But it highlights what is wrong with this film.
Fingers crossed that they get it right this time.
@@IanTalksAboutStuff your reading of the book and movie scene was so spot on, thank you. Now the TV episode: no fish, not even a mention of ratter. What is there left to say.
@@ulrikafirefly7471 they mentioned ratter
Just saying his dark materials on the bbc is produced by Philip Pullman! I haven’t got to this bit in series yet but so far it’s fantastic
Produced but not directed. And produced by many others. It seemes like his view was changed, once again. As someone said, "still not the adaptation we deserve, but it's a step in the right direction."
Great Video! Why did the film and the HBO Series chose to have Billy Costa play the part of the Lost Child?
I'd argue that the kid being Billy did better portray that the General Oblation Board was ruthless, by giving Lyra, and therefore the audience, more of a connection. In the book, it was awful, but it wouldn't linger as long as it would've with a better known character.
BBC series* technically!
I had this movie on CD as a kid and I thought it was super cool. I should read the books some day (at least the first one) because they sound so good!
Please do read or listen to the books. If you want to listen to it, be careful that you choose the audioBOOKS and not the audioPLAY since the BBC did an official radioplay version of the whole trilogy and people have complained that 'it's not the full books' because they didn't look at what they were ordering.
@@Roadent1241 Thanks for the advice! I'll keep my eye out.
@@laracroft003 You're welcome!
I suppose now I'll have to ask for you or Dom Smith to do a Lost In Adaption style thing on Books VS Film, TV show and radioplay.
I need to listen to the radio play again now so I can compare this scene to the other two. (Speaking of which, after hearing the Harpies in the radioplay, I'm so intrigued hear and see them and the Mulefa in the TV show.)
And if I do my own amateur version, I may well do it improved compared to the bigwigs and that surprises me.
Who the fuck spells “ain’t” as “en’t”?
Damn it man starting with eregon, that movie still hurts.
C'mon, I read the books and I watched both, the movie and the show from BBC, and the scene from the BBC wasn't bad, actually, I believe that the tv show is great.
At least they got her hair right. 5 books so far and all have blonde Lyra.
The show did not get the horror of being without a daemon and intercision across right.
Sooo...Tony died because they took the fish?? And he just let himself go??
I think he died even before they took the fish, but yeah he just didn't have the will to live anymore.
loved this video!
Thank you!
Why does Lyra have to ask the name of the boys daemon, when it was what he asked and begged for from the moment she found him?
I always interpreted it as her clarifying with Pan to make sure she got it right, but yes she should have that information by this point.
Asking your daemon is not forgetting, it's reassuring. Your daemon is you in that sense.
Still doesn’t make any sense, that she would ask “herself” or anyone else, something she was already very well aware of.just feels like clumsy writing. The same way a mistake in the editing of a film will catch your attention. I didn’t think that she had forgotten, in the context of the scene, that would have been highly unlikely.
How do you have only 208 subs? I thought you had 200k at least
Hah, 2 weeks ago I had 15. 200K would be nice, but I'll take any progress.
so is the first book in HDM Northern Lights, or the Golden Compass? I've seen it written and called both. the version I have is Northern Lights, but the movie was the Golden Compass. help.
The Northern Lights is the original British title, but the worldwide release is The Golden Compass, as are adaptations like the movie. I'm American and grew up with the Golden Compass so that's all I know it by, but the Northern Lights is the same book.
@@ianulman2935 Didn't they refer to the alethiometer as the golden compass in the film too? I'm getting second hand rage from my past self being patronised by the dumbing down treatment they gave the movie.
Do you think The Golden Compass movie adaptation is bad? Dragon Ball Evolution I think is the worst one
There are a whole lot of bad adaptations out there, so trying to pick "the worst" would be a pretty monumental task. Honestly it would probably be some direct-to-TV movie that no one's ever heard of.
@@IanTalksAboutStuff I don't aspect much from a direct to tv movie but from big companies who puts lots of money in a project I want to see an awesome adaptation, The Golden Compass wasn't so great because of production problems and people who didn't understand the books but I can say at least the story is there and the characters were not ruined that much. Dragon Ball evolution in the other hand is terrible in everything, the characters, the story, the setting that thing is horrible to watch.
Okay. I get your examples, but the kid who plays Lyra is very stiff. She’s just not very good. She only had to show fear and compassion, those are partly external in the world, just not from this kid. She can only be frowny or kind of flat. Idk.
the movie sucked because they made a lot of cuts thus ending into a terribly confusing cliffhanger. if you watch the clip you'll see how it was supposed to end th-cam.com/video/JWM3XrnlNTU/w-d-xo.html
Wtf are u talking about. Disgust and fear of the lack of Daemon is clear on her face
BBC's TV series on His Dark Materials is a lot better in my opinion than this movie
Definitely better than the film.
It wasnt in the tv adaptation either
I know that really bugged me
I loved this film, till I saw the TV series that is
Oddly I feel that it was originally meant to be pronounced Day-mon not Dee-mon
...and that the movie just got it wrong :\
One of the opening pages of my copy of Northern lights says that it's meant to be pronounced like the english word demon. The fact that you didn't trust the movie to get even that right is telling.
Well the film is there, it was destroyed in the edit, insiders have written about the real edit....it was definitely there...seems the Catholic Church didn’t like it, and pulled their strings...🤯🤯🤯🤯🤡🤡🤡🤡🌍🌍🌍🌍🌍🌍🌍
Uh, no. Not to be contrarian. You're not supposed to "like" the protagonist "at least a bit" you're supposed to understand them. Find them interesting. - Pity maybe. Likeability is too narrow.
I disagree with everyone that the movie failed I enjoyed the movie
To each their own.
The bear looks like it has downsyndrome next to the one from HBO/BBC
CG has improved in 12 years XD
@@Roadent1241 It really has xD
please don't use down syndrome as a punchline for attention, it makes you sound like a twelve year old trying to look cool and funny to his friends.
@@PoloElefante At least he didn't use the R-word. It's mostly just a descriptor?
@@Roadent1241 it's inappropiate at best. at the very least, since you wouldn't say that in front of a person with down syndrome, then don't say it out in public. you never know who could be reading
Its would be better if you show it