Well done for visiting these kind of companies and bringing this to the wider world. This show is truly quality material.. None of that sit in a room and talk opinions.. you guys are at the forefront
Very impressive and futuristic (yet simple to understand) technology! That recycled battery pack is a great way to make sure batteries last longer by giving them multiple lives! Would love to see those techniques combined and applied to more (residential?) buildings!
i cannot emphasize how good and current your channel is! it truly is a public service. Thank you for all these great videos and interesting informations.
This will make old LEAFs values increase greatly! I have been looking for these but can only find them from China and they are not the same voltages as my home and are not up certified...... Great video! Re-use is a great idea :) keeping those batteries in use and sometimes even..... Fully charged
@@rokadamlje5365 CCS is not certified for bi-directional yet. Only one way into the chrarging port, not back out of the charging port. They are working on it, so will be coming within few years.
If im understanding it correctly, DC connection is directly tied to the battery. What stops the current going the other way other than sensors tied to shutoff switch? Assuming the voltage is lower on the charger side.
I liked that 'honest' approach. Not claiming that it IMPROVED the battery, buy it really just was kinder to the battery, leading to extended life. UPS and Car batteries tend to get very high discharge rates when used. the gentler 'reuse' allows a tamer discharg rate while remaining useful. The sad thing, is here in my area, the SERVICING (shop rate) costs many time exceed the part cost. We tend to put in NEW, just to avoid a call out.
Contacting Engie initially was a total trip for them since they were apparently unaware of the exposure they received from this. Keep up the great work, the future is coming and we all have our own way of designing it.
This is great journalism. It shows the bigger picture of how cars are getting merged into the grid. And almost nobody else seems to be reporting on it.
Great clear no nonsense channel for EV thikos like me. I lived in Tanzania where you could experience power cuts several times a week, where you can get a trickle charge battery inverter system installed quite easily. But it was expensive due to the small market & taxes etc plus the use of premium new batteries. Ironic the 'developing world' solutions are being re-imagined in the emerging battery to grid world of so called 'developed' countries. The big problem is see is space, which is where the T Powerwall is good. In theory this could transform the business of recycled batteries and the battery market. So many potential market synergies between EV cars, old lead acid batteries, and the powergrid out there. I hope the old legacy power generation companies don't put a drag on this to protect profits. This should be seen as a public good in decarbonising our economy. Interesting times, I hope the channel will keep following this development.
Jon Tait The big benefits are using the excess capacity at night to shift supply to the batteries so eliminating the need to build extra power stations. It will also make a transition to full renewables even easier.
Local batteries help take the spikes/peaks off the grid, this makes the whole grid easier to manage when scaled up. You can charge the batteries off peak, for example Economy 7 in the UK, and so reduce the cost to the customer
Amen to that. You know that anything on my path is way better than I could have foreseen possible. (I'm still mind-boggled by the speaker, let alone hard-drive speeds.)
This is why I haven't purchased a Tesla Powerwall. I drive a 24.6kWh battery pack everyday, why would I pay the same for a stationary battery as I did for my used Fiat 500e? I'm holding out for the future of vehicle to grid home chargers to come to market and I'm really excited about this gaining momentum.
You had me at "Hello", the "Vehicle-To-Grid" in the title also helped, so we have potential 1+ billion lead acid batteries for the building storage, nice!
Gives new meaning to the term 'jump starting' your mates car and helps with range anxiety, if you run out of juice just get a friend to come with his electric car and give you some of his charge so you can drive to a charging station.
I would dearly love to see you guys work with Edd China -i cant help thinking his dynamic with you guys would be incredible and he is a font of knowledge with a passion for EVs and all things eclectic in vehicles.
@@arnefines2356 He was a presenter on Wheeler Dealers, yes. He is a qualified Engineering Designer and has held a number of world records for bizarre vehicles. Has been on a number of car shows. I have wanted to see Jonny and Edd together for years, Robert with them would be amazing.
I thought that was some proper synchronised dual thigh stroking stuff there Robert. There will be more and more of this horse I mean power trading going on. This is an avenue for the "little man" to get some of the action. I heard on the radio here in the UK that large Supermarkets have all their freezers in all their shops remote controlled and people are employed to look at the real time and volatile wholesale power pricing. When the pricing rises, they remotely (and temporarily) shut down all their freezer "Network" and immediately sell on their "not used" wholesale allocation back to the grid (typically at a profit). The money can be made in the STORAGE and MOVEMENT of the electricity, not the grid itself. It is kind of like Cloud computing, you "give back" the CPUs you don't need for a short time, and they are re-allocated elsewhere (in real time) but because they are really assigned to you - you get the benefit of the short term "sale" of the (computing) power. I was also delighted to see good old lead acid getting some notice. I used to work in Data Centres and it would break my heart to see racks of perfectly good 12v Batteries going out the door simply because the contract says they are to be replaced every 24 months. And as mentioned in the video, these batteries are much better quality than your average ICE type battery. When "really cheap" was mentioned - is there anything more specific on this? The other alternative I know of is the "flow cell" batteries popular in Australia. They are bromide filled Tubs with pumped fluid across plastic membranes. I also read about "DIY" off grid kits using sealed marine batteries. I would think these lead acid batteries are by far the cheapest option.
Really interested in this idea of squeezing every last drop of life from lead-acid batteries before they get recycled so bravo sir. I was a bit confused for a second on the 'pig shaving' till I copped on it was 'peak saving' hehe
V2G actually has possibly the greatest benefit for being able to transfer a lot of our domestic heating needs to renewables, which is the next big problem we face. In Europe, we tend to need heat in the early morning, evening and at night, times when the is zero solar insolation, so we currently use GAS and oil for our heating needs. With V2G you could charge you car at work on daytime solar power, and take it home to heat your house over night!
Love the idea that this is happening in reality now - matched with a small battery at home plus the back-up from a much bigger EV is a no- brainer - they're all just holding energy at the end of the day so moving it back and forth as needed makes sense. As he points out, most cars sit doing nothing for most of the time. Waiting to see how it develops :)
Great stuff Robert - v. interesting. All we need now is the report on your Tesla Powerwall/new solar PV installation. It must be well over a year now......
Robert can you do an update on Shell charging please? Has the roll out happened or stalled? Saw Esso advertising ev chargers on tv last night which was SO good to see? I feel UK charging network is broken and not improving...am I wrong? Even Tesla seem to have stopped expanding SC network. An update would be great please.
reusing and recycling all those lead acid bricks is brilliant, nice one to this company, great stuff. Whenever I hear some Dutch men speaking English it always reminds me of Farengar from Skyrim "Come to Dragonsreach to discuss the ongoing hostilities?" =P
Have they announced whether they plan to commercialize the lead acid battery system for home storage(i.e. powerwall competitors)? They seem to be focusing on large corporate office buildings.
Nice reuse of batteries! If they still have 80% capacity it would be a shame to recycle them. For V2G, maybe free parking in town in exchange for the utility being allowed to use 10% of the battery capacity of the car could be useful?
Good idea but this would require a lot of infrastructure. What this needs is for a larger country to invest in this wholescale to show the way. And rest will follow.
V2G is also a passion of mine. My family drives two EVs and made a couple hundred dollars USD during 2019 from SDG&E. The payback for our 7.5kw solar system is about 5 years. I think we would make a lot more if we could delivery kilowatts to the grid on-peak. We have 20kW available, and 170kWh of storage. Such a missing link.....
VTG would be great for people who 1) Charge at work for free or cheap 2) Pay for a network which has better rates than an energy supplier 3) People who have an electric meter which charges less for electricity used at night.
cheaper at night: sounds like power from coal or nuclear plant. It is cheaper at night, because they cannot throttle down to lower demand at night times - thus running at full power - giving electricity away for less money...
I'm *so* waiting for this. My car has a 33kWh battery, and my home uses about 10kWh per day, mostly in the evening, and I normally use much less than 20kWh driving in a day. How cool would it be to power the evening home use from the car battery (already paid for!) and top it up on overnight cheap electricity. Cheaper for me, and a benefit to the power network (once enough people do it) in reducing the need for the high-cost surge power stations - make a real impact. Unfortunately, need the CCS people to get their fingers out and standardise, and then for the existing CCS vehicle manufacturers to upgrade the cars. I'm not particularly hopeful that the latter will happen, however - we shall see.
Even better still, if you had sufficient solar capacity, charge for free after deducting the cost of your solar array without the need to have extra Tesla Powerwall type storage in the house.
@@pinkelephants1421 Problem with that for me, is the car isn't at home during the day, and I don't use significant power at home during the daylight hours. Point here, is to use the car instead of a house battery (so a significant saving) - which works if the power usage pattern aligns with when the car is attached to the house.
@@kevfquinn Yes, you're absolutely right. Stupid of me not to have thought of that aspect. My suggestion would have made more sense for those working from home or for the retired etc. Home working is supposed to become more common in the future as digitalisation becomes ever more pervasive, if not on a full time basis then say 1 -4 days a week; then my suggestion would be more workable.
@@pinkelephants1421 Its perfect solution for us. We use 30kwh a day but I work from home. So the car would be just sat on the drive all day and if I need to go out, the house uses very very little electricity. The car could then charge up over night with hopefully very cheap or free energy & during the day the house or grid could use the car. I have looked into powerwalls but the cost to get 30kwh capacity, its cheaper to buy an old leaf!! OVO energy offer V2G trial chargers, but reports are very few people get picked to beta test.
@@thomassneath8134 Still doesn't mean it isn't worth talking to OVO Energy. If you've no contact with them then there's certainly no hope of being picked. Sonnen (I think that I've spelt that right) is a German company & they make a Powerwall equivalent & from what I understand they're one of the biggest suppliers of renewable energy stuff & batteries. I've only heard & read about them so you'd need to do your own research.
Vehicle to grid could really be a boon to utility back up systems. It could eventually kill off the dirty and unreliable generator backup systems. Great production!
He talks about being able to disconnect the batteries under load, however these connectors (Powerlock) are not rated for this, especially with DC. I wonder if there is a switch on the battery tray.
Bit annoying if you have the forklift the bottom set of battery packs out, you have to turn all the other packs off and fork lift them out only to re-stack. Thank you for sharing
this is why i hoped chademo would win over ccs. css has plans, but those are vague and off into the future. we could do vehicle to building as a transition stage. aside from chademo cars, the workhorse w-15 can do that now, but from a different outlet. that outlet was actually meant for power tools, but its 7kw. easily enough for an apt or small house for example. until ccs can do it, this could be the way forward or an interim step.
Grande Bob, this V2G stuff is crazy exciting! Can't wait to plug and support energy transition and all the awesome consequences on environment and oil dictators losing their grip and our homes and cities turn full electric and so on and on. Please add your ones, I'm sure I just scratched the surface with my points here.
that second piece with the lead acid batteries was brilliant! would deep cycle or agm batteries be better in the long run, assuming they last longer? or are those the batteries theyre getting? lead acid is already near perfectly recyclable.
The next thing should combine this with the car refurbishments from the last episode - turn old fossil fuel cars into electrics, save the batteries and turn them into domestic storage!
This is very interesting, thanks for the amazing work! Though, I think the real issue here is to seriously tackle the lack of charging infrastructure to charge cars in the UK - never mind charging the grid from the car. This is too far into the future in my opinion and only an option for those who have parking spaces outside their homes. I think it would be great if the amazing Fully Charged took a real long look at what the reality is for those poor sods like myself who'd love an EV but can't own one because the lack of public charging points in every day use.
Great video as usual... Can we have more information on "Chatham bi-directional Protocols" or "Chatham-AH" as you seem to refer to it? I've bought a Hyundai Kona EV just now and am most interested in whether it has a bi-directional energy flow (surprised that the IPace does not).
The lead acid thing - I'm skeptical. He admits you only get about a year out of that kind of lead acid battery pack. That is quite short. I would think switching out and managing, processing, disposing of these large and heavy packs that are pretty much constantly wearing out, would be more expensive in labor than the savings you get in the low cost of these packs. Especially as the cost of lithium keeps it downward cycle.
Interesting for hospitals, they have hundreds of mainly unused standby batteries which could be recycled like this, possibly for the hospitals themselves.
Watching this I was reminded of Hurricane Katrina that took out New Orleans and stories of how some tech savvy types used their Prius’s to back power their houses in 2005. I also heard about some multi millionaires hiring Israeli military contractors as a private army....but that’s another story!
That’s one way to reduce redundancy. However, I do question the viability of lead acid batteries with higher demand devices such as A/C in bigger cities of southern United States during the summer months especially if there’s an initial spike.
Regarding the second life battery storage units. He was talking about eventually this and that. Eventually there will be no more of these batteries used in vehicles to begin with for them to grab second hand... That is a great tech during transition but vehicles are already starting to eliminate those 12v car batteries so they better not be counting on them for the future...
As KK mentioned, the Engie representative was saying that those particular batteries are from data centers. However, most mobile phone sites / cell sites also have a fairly decent lead-acid battery backup system, and those batteries are also high quality. So there are some good sources for gently used, high quality lead acid batteries.
Even if these are lead-acid (LA) batteries used in many different applications, the general idea is to re-use and extend their usable life before recycling. It is a low tech/low cost solution which can easily be used within a V2B/V2G system. The use of LA batteries is unlikely to stop for generations and there will still be a lot of unused batteries out there which can be re-purposed. Think about it. LA battery production is still massive. If there were a sea change in industry to Lithium or other alternatives, there would be stockpiles of unused LA batteries. Do you just want to throw these all in the tip (UK for landfill) or reuse them for several years more when they are perfectly serviceable?
Octopus EV are now offering a home V2G charger in a bundle with a new Nissan leaf they call it Powerloop. It appears to be a pilot, possibly even a research project? Does anyone have experience of this? I'm interested but wonder if this is a bit too early to adopt in the UK?
Yep.. that was very interesting...mobile power units..just need to develop a new app to calculate home to office to home and and use green power both ends..it's getting more complicating but it's s fascinating a concept. A mobile power grid . The algorithm to operate this is mind blowing...😁❤
Excellent ideas, but another “green energy” is the use of Molten Salt Reactors using Thorium & Nuke waste that cannot melt down. The LFTR configuration also produces useful medical and scientific isotopes while producing little transuranic waste, and what is produced is shorter half life. Couple these with wind & solar and it’s realistic to reduce most combustion power plants. Oak Ridge National Labs(US) ran a MSR 30 years ago successfully for a few years as demonstration.
>^..^< Your guest in this video just mentioned all batteries are limitd to specific number of cycles. Would you know your self or know who to ask if regenative breaking counts as one cycle each time you regenerate from your kenetic energy to slow down in your EV?. If it is, this could make using one pedal driving a vary costly a common practice in the long run I suppose......
Most studies and figures i've worked with suggest that it is not possible to make a Lead Acid battery storage system provide a net positive cost. ie the battery cost, even when second hand, dividing by the total charge exchange is significantly more than the cost of grid based electricity. Of course there is still some merit in using LA as load levellers that cost money, but provide an overall and highly necessary stability service to the grid. (This is because LA is fundamentally a "constant state of charge" system, and it does not support by it's very nature a deep cycling capability, which is intrinsic in a practicable ES system used for Renewable back up etc)
@@2002RM A typical LA 12v car battery, when new, is rated at around 50 Ah, which at 12v nominal ,means a power of 600 watts for an hour, or 0.6 kWhr (in reality, it will be significantly less than that due to voltage sag as SoC decreases). When it is worn out, ie fails to start your car, which is when they get replaced, it does that because the plates have become sulphated and therefore it's effective capacity (at cranking power, which is around 1.5 kW) is insufficient to even start the engine. (1.5Kw for 3 sec of cranking is just 0.00125 kWhr...). So the issue with worn LA batteries is their high Internal Resistance. They still have some capacity, but that capacity can only be accessed at an ever decreasing power level. I actually did a series of tests when we were calibrating the Battery Charger and Monitoring controller (modern cars have smart charging of their LA batteries, which is why they last much longer than they used too in older cars) and an automotive LA battery that has reached Effective End of Life has something like 30% of it's capacity left, but only accessible at around 5% of it's rated power when new (~ 100w typically). This is what renders them uncost effective, even when effectively "free" ie with each battery providing around 100w max and just 0.2 kWhr, you need a huge stack of them to provide any meaningful power, or capacity and the cost of the support infrastructure to utilise them becomes limiting
The second issue is that the recycling chain for LA batteries is slow, and has no method for maintaining their cell voltages once they have been removed from the cars they failed to start. What that means is the batteries sit, for days, weeks and even months and they self discharge (as do all batteries) and their cell potential falls. And for an LA battery, once it falls too low, electrode plating occurs and the battery is, well, it's no longer a battery. This means that a "box of batteries" received from a recycling centre are not actually viable in any sense of the word, they are simply lead blocks. The batteries shown in the video and claimed to be "recycles" may well have been second use, but they sure as heck didn't come from within the pre-existing LA battery recycling system imo.(which is a system that has been running to recover the lead from these batteries for years and years and works very well, but it isn't a system that support recovering a viable battery)
Hi. Love your videos, and V2G technology looks amazing! But, could you make video that would explain more what is the high level idea of V2G - in a world where 100% cars are EVs, how do people imagine it will work, how would drivers use it, what grids would benefits from it, etc. I get that technology to plug car to charger is there, but how will it work in the large scale? Thanks!
@@andyphillips7435 - One of the main advantages of solar panels is minimal maintenance. Add a tracking system and you've suddenly got a whole lot more that can break down. A tracking system can add another 20-30% output over the course of a day, but unless you're in a situation where you really need that extra percentage (such as an off-grid house in the middle of Australia), it's not worth the extra maintenance.
Roxor128 .I can imagine an on land mechanical tracking system to be high maintenance but a floating array , tethered at it’s north end , would pivot easily through 120 degrees. 50 ton canal coal barges were pulled by one horse once upon a time .
@@andyphillips7435 - Oooh... Yes. That could be a hell of a lot simpler. Just a cable, two pulley wheels and a motor. Fix the pole-facing edge of the array, put the wheels on opposite sides of the lake, attach the motor to one of them, and make a trapezium between the wheels and the equator-facing corners of the array with the cable. Tracking computer turns the motor slowly over the course of the day and back again during the night.
Some of us have short attention spans. It would have been nice to have seen some kind of graphics or chart with colors while he was explaining how it works. But I think in the end I got it. He lost me on deeper cycles, and how that effect battery degradation in a good or bad way.
Doesn't seem right. I counted 16 batteries per tray, assuming 80% capacity and deep cycle batteries (not standard automobile batteries) you need 130Ah batteries to get 60Kwh from those 48 batteries. They look too small for 130Ah batteries.
Best EV channel on youtube by a mile.
Totally agree...
agreed: funny that the most straightforward, informative, and non-gimmicky channel is from the guy that was a comedy robot on tv.
So it is. But not only EV, it is more of a renewable energy channel.
Only by a mile?
@@oliviermagere by 1.6 km?
Well done for visiting these kind of companies and bringing this to the wider world. This show is truly quality material.. None of that sit in a room and talk opinions.. you guys are at the forefront
Very impressive and futuristic (yet simple to understand) technology!
That recycled battery pack is a great way to make sure batteries last longer by giving them multiple lives!
Would love to see those techniques combined and applied to more (residential?) buildings!
i cannot emphasize how good and current your channel is! it truly is a public service.
Thank you for all these great videos and interesting informations.
This will make old LEAFs values increase greatly! I have been looking for these but can only find them from China and they are not the same voltages as my home and are not up certified...... Great video! Re-use is a great idea :) keeping those batteries in use and sometimes even..... Fully charged
I imagine a scrapper having stacks of squashed old Leafs plugged in to earn a few quid a day per car, on electricity brokering.
Why doesnt it work with CSS?
@@rokadamlje5365 CCS is not certified for bi-directional yet. Only one way into the chrarging port, not back out of the charging port. They are working on it, so will be coming within few years.
If im understanding it correctly, DC connection is directly tied to the battery. What stops the current going the other way other than sensors tied to shutoff switch? Assuming the voltage is lower on the charger side.
Here they claim to be CCS compatible, in the datasheet.
www.pr-electronics.nl/en/news/32/overview-ev-charging-solutions-factsheets-2018/
I liked that 'honest' approach. Not claiming that it IMPROVED the battery, buy it really just was kinder to the battery, leading to extended life.
UPS and Car batteries tend to get very high discharge rates when used. the gentler 'reuse' allows a tamer discharg rate while remaining useful.
The sad thing, is here in my area, the SERVICING (shop rate) costs many time exceed the part cost. We tend to put in NEW, just to avoid a call out.
Contacting Engie initially was a total trip for them since they were apparently unaware of the exposure they received from this. Keep up the great work, the future is coming and we all have our own way of designing it.
This is great journalism. It shows the bigger picture of how cars are getting merged into the grid. And almost nobody else seems to be reporting on it.
Great clear no nonsense channel for EV thikos like me. I lived in Tanzania where you could experience power cuts several times a week, where you can get a trickle charge battery inverter system installed quite easily. But it was expensive due to the small market & taxes etc plus the use of premium new batteries. Ironic the 'developing world' solutions are being re-imagined in the emerging battery to grid world of so called 'developed' countries. The big problem is see is space, which is where the T Powerwall is good. In theory this could transform the business of recycled batteries and the battery market. So many potential market synergies between EV cars, old lead acid batteries, and the powergrid out there. I hope the old legacy power generation companies don't put a drag on this to protect profits. This should be seen as a public good in decarbonising our economy. Interesting times, I hope the channel will keep following this development.
Fascinating stuff. I work in urban planning and we're seeing more and more applications for battery storage here in the UK
Jon Tait The big benefits are using the excess capacity at night to shift supply to the batteries so eliminating the need to build extra power stations. It will also make a transition to full renewables even easier.
I suspect we will just think of more and more.
Local batteries help take the spikes/peaks off the grid, this makes the whole grid easier to manage when scaled up.
You can charge the batteries off peak, for example Economy 7 in the UK, and so reduce the cost to the customer
The future is excitingly boring. God bless simple solutions.
You mean it's not going to be like a Marvel movie?!
Amen to that. You know that anything on my path is way better than I could have foreseen possible. (I'm still mind-boggled by the speaker, let alone hard-drive speeds.)
One of my favorite channels on TH-cam. Keep up the good work!
Very innovative and actual, I am starting to love this show just because the amount of valuable information is able to provide! Brilliant job
These are by far my favourite type of fully charged video
Good man, this is the new way of thinking!
This is why I haven't purchased a Tesla Powerwall. I drive a 24.6kWh battery pack everyday, why would I pay the same for a stationary battery as I did for my used Fiat 500e? I'm holding out for the future of vehicle to grid home chargers to come to market and I'm really excited about this gaining momentum.
This is such exciting stuff. Thanks for bringing so much high quality content to us FC team!!
You had me at "Hello", the "Vehicle-To-Grid" in the title also helped, so we have potential 1+ billion lead acid batteries for the building storage, nice!
Gives new meaning to the term 'jump starting' your mates car and helps with range anxiety, if you run out of juice just get a friend to come with his electric car and give you some of his charge so you can drive to a charging station.
Hello sir it's good to see you with your channel, I am a huge fan of yours since very 1st day I saw "junkyard wars"
I would dearly love to see you guys work with Edd China -i cant help thinking his dynamic with you guys would be incredible and he is a font of knowledge with a passion for EVs and all things eclectic in vehicles.
edd would be awesome!
From Wheelers Dealers?
Big tall fella with mad grey hair and orange hands.@@arnefines2356
@@arnefines2356 He was a presenter on Wheeler Dealers, yes. He is a qualified Engineering Designer and has held a number of world records for bizarre vehicles. Has been on a number of car shows. I have wanted to see Jonny and Edd together for years, Robert with them would be amazing.
They kind of already have. Ed China was at Fully Charged Live last year with his electric ice cream van.
I thought that was some proper synchronised dual thigh stroking stuff there Robert. There will be more and more of this horse I mean power trading going on. This is an avenue for the "little man" to get some of the action.
I heard on the radio here in the UK that large Supermarkets have all their freezers in all their shops remote controlled and people are employed to look at the real time and volatile wholesale power pricing. When the pricing rises, they remotely (and temporarily) shut down all their freezer "Network" and immediately sell on their "not used" wholesale allocation back to the grid (typically at a profit).
The money can be made in the STORAGE and MOVEMENT of the electricity, not the grid itself. It is kind of like Cloud computing, you "give back" the CPUs you don't need for a short time, and they are re-allocated elsewhere (in real time) but because they are really assigned to you - you get the benefit of the short term "sale" of the (computing) power.
I was also delighted to see good old lead acid getting some notice. I used to work in Data Centres and it would break my heart to see racks of perfectly good 12v Batteries going out the door simply because the contract says they are to be replaced every 24 months. And as mentioned in the video, these batteries are much better quality than your average ICE type battery.
When "really cheap" was mentioned - is there anything more specific on this? The other alternative I know of is the "flow cell" batteries popular in Australia. They are bromide filled Tubs with pumped fluid across plastic membranes. I also read about "DIY" off grid kits using sealed marine batteries. I would think these lead acid batteries are by far the cheapest option.
This is a game changing product that will only get better... yet as an amateur weather spotter, I was more fascinated with the incoming squall...
love the container idea not too sure about the time frame tho but love it none the less
More solutions to thing that I didn't know were a problem. I love the idea of using old data centre batteries.
Dutch humour: "we like cheap!" 1:56
Joost Kaandorp This might explain the expression "Dutch Treat"? Often wondered how this saying came into being.
@@koningsbruggen What about the Brits?
As a dutchman, I can ask “how was copper wire invented?”
Two dutchmen arguing over a penny. . .
humanity likes "cheap" - same here in australia
Roger Beck Especially relevant given they were the first (Europeans) to discover us! Although seems they were too stingy to do anything about it! lol
Great video as usual .Thanks Gez.
Great video, exciting stuff!
love the ducks sitting on the floating solar
Great idea, this would be great in the case of an emergency, It will save many lives
Love the 4K Quality.
Really interested in this idea of squeezing every last drop of life from lead-acid batteries before they get recycled so bravo sir.
I was a bit confused for a second on the 'pig shaving' till I copped on it was 'peak saving' hehe
V2G actually has possibly the greatest benefit for being able to transfer a lot of our domestic heating needs to renewables, which is the next big problem we face. In Europe, we tend to need heat in the early morning, evening and at night, times when the is zero solar insolation, so we currently use GAS and oil for our heating needs. With V2G you could charge you car at work on daytime solar power, and take it home to heat your house over night!
Very interesting, and some superb inventions by that company.
Love the idea that this is happening in reality now - matched with a small battery at home plus the back-up from a much bigger EV is a no- brainer - they're all just holding energy at the end of the day so moving it back and forth as needed makes sense. As he points out, most cars sit doing nothing for most of the time. Waiting to see how it develops :)
Great stuff Robert - v. interesting.
All we need now is the report on your Tesla Powerwall/new solar PV installation. It must be well over a year now......
Robert can you do an update on Shell charging please? Has the roll out happened or stalled? Saw Esso advertising ev chargers on tv last night which was SO good to see?
I feel UK charging network is broken and not improving...am I wrong?
Even Tesla seem to have stopped expanding SC network.
An update would be great please.
A pallet of old batteries with a pair of Powerlock connectors, old tech becoming high tech. I like it.
Oh the future is so exciting!
reusing and recycling all those lead acid bricks is brilliant, nice one to this company, great stuff.
Whenever I hear some Dutch men speaking English it always reminds me of Farengar from Skyrim "Come to Dragonsreach to discuss the ongoing hostilities?" =P
Thanks sir very good video idea
Have they announced whether they plan to commercialize the lead acid battery system for home storage(i.e. powerwall competitors)? They seem to be focusing on large corporate office buildings.
A further Step to attack the "Storage Problem" - I support this Idea - Thanks
How can I get hold of engie as I would love to trial these commercially in Australia.
400k subs, congrats 👍😎
Nice reuse of batteries! If they still have 80% capacity it would be a shame to recycle them.
For V2G, maybe free parking in town in exchange for the utility being allowed to use 10% of the battery capacity of the car could be useful?
Good idea but this would require a lot of infrastructure. What this needs is for a larger country to invest in this wholescale to show the way. And rest will follow.
V2G is also a passion of mine. My family drives two EVs and made a couple hundred dollars USD during 2019 from SDG&E. The payback for our 7.5kw solar system is about 5 years. I think we would make a lot more if we could delivery kilowatts to the grid on-peak. We have 20kW available, and 170kWh of storage. Such a missing link.....
loved it!!! thanks for sharing
VTG would be great for people who 1) Charge at work for free or cheap 2) Pay for a network which has better rates than an energy supplier 3) People who have an electric meter which charges less for electricity used at night.
cheaper at night: sounds like power from coal or nuclear plant. It is cheaper at night, because they cannot throttle down to lower demand at night times - thus running at full power - giving electricity away for less money...
I'm *so* waiting for this. My car has a 33kWh battery, and my home uses about 10kWh per day, mostly in the evening, and I normally use much less than 20kWh driving in a day. How cool would it be to power the evening home use from the car battery (already paid for!) and top it up on overnight cheap electricity. Cheaper for me, and a benefit to the power network (once enough people do it) in reducing the need for the high-cost surge power stations - make a real impact.
Unfortunately, need the CCS people to get their fingers out and standardise, and then for the existing CCS vehicle manufacturers to upgrade the cars. I'm not particularly hopeful that the latter will happen, however - we shall see.
Even better still, if you had sufficient solar capacity, charge for free after deducting the cost of your solar array without the need to have extra Tesla Powerwall type storage in the house.
@@pinkelephants1421 Problem with that for me, is the car isn't at home during the day, and I don't use significant power at home during the daylight hours. Point here, is to use the car instead of a house battery (so a significant saving) - which works if the power usage pattern aligns with when the car is attached to the house.
@@kevfquinn Yes, you're absolutely right. Stupid of me not to have thought of that aspect. My suggestion would have made more sense for those working from home or for the retired etc. Home working is supposed to become more common in the future as digitalisation becomes ever more pervasive, if not on a full time basis then say 1 -4 days a week; then my suggestion would be more workable.
@@pinkelephants1421 Its perfect solution for us. We use 30kwh a day but I work from home. So the car would be just sat on the drive all day and if I need to go out, the house uses very very little electricity.
The car could then charge up over night with hopefully very cheap or free energy & during the day the house or grid could use the car.
I have looked into powerwalls but the cost to get 30kwh capacity, its cheaper to buy an old leaf!!
OVO energy offer V2G trial chargers, but reports are very few people get picked to beta test.
@@thomassneath8134 Still doesn't mean it isn't worth talking to OVO Energy. If you've no contact with them then there's certainly no hope of being picked. Sonnen (I think that I've spelt that right) is a German company & they make a Powerwall equivalent & from what I understand they're one of the biggest suppliers of renewable energy stuff & batteries. I've only heard & read about them so you'd need to do your own research.
What a great use for old batteries.
Dutch summer helps you bridging freezing winter months 😁
"That's all we got time for"? Are the TH-cam servers full lol
Loving the channel
Vehicle to grid could really be a boon to utility back up systems. It could eventually kill off the dirty and unreliable generator backup systems. Great production!
I loved!! I want in Brazil!!
He talks about being able to disconnect the batteries under load, however these connectors (Powerlock) are not rated for this, especially with DC. I wonder if there is a switch on the battery tray.
Bit annoying if you have the forklift the bottom set of battery packs out, you have to turn all the other packs off and fork lift them out only to re-stack. Thank you for sharing
this is why i hoped chademo would win over ccs. css has plans, but those are vague and off into the future.
we could do vehicle to building as a transition stage. aside from chademo cars, the workhorse w-15 can do that now, but from a different outlet. that outlet was actually meant for power tools, but its 7kw. easily enough for an apt or small house for example. until ccs can do it, this could be the way forward or an interim step.
Grande Bob, this V2G stuff is crazy exciting!
Can't wait to plug and support energy transition and all the awesome consequences on environment and oil dictators losing their grip and our homes and cities turn full electric and so on and on.
Please add your ones, I'm sure I just scratched the surface with my points here.
that second piece with the lead acid batteries was brilliant! would deep cycle or agm batteries be better in the long run, assuming they last longer? or are those the batteries theyre getting? lead acid is already near perfectly recyclable.
Great channel !
Normally, I totally cringe when watching a Dutchman speak English, but Jacco did an outstanding job! Well done !
Just have a shot or two of advocaat before listening.
Dutchies are amazing at speaking other languages.
The next thing should combine this with the car refurbishments from the last episode - turn old fossil fuel cars into electrics, save the batteries and turn them into domestic storage!
Woww that's the most British reaction ever: "it's a pretty good woord, we should introduce it😉'. Thanks for this lesson in politness
Nice job Jacob
This is very interesting, thanks for the amazing work! Though, I think the real issue here is to seriously tackle the lack of charging infrastructure to charge cars in the UK - never mind charging the grid from the car. This is too far into the future in my opinion and only an option for those who have parking spaces outside their homes. I think it would be great if the amazing Fully Charged took a real long look at what the reality is for those poor sods like myself who'd love an EV but can't own one because the lack of public charging points in every day use.
This show has always been plucky and a bit weird, but I love that. The best part has got to be the production value, especially the graphics.
♡ Fantastic show! ♡
Half a million subs in 2019, come on!!
Great video as usual... Can we have more information on "Chatham bi-directional Protocols" or "Chatham-AH" as you seem to refer to it? I've bought a Hyundai Kona EV just now and am most interested in whether it has a bi-directional energy flow (surprised that the IPace does not).
@10:00, is that NEN1010?
Thnx Guys!!! 👍
This is the cost of making a part of the solar/wind usefull.
Battery storage should be mandatory with all green projects.
Sustainability Love it!
The lead acid thing - I'm skeptical. He admits you only get about a year out of that kind of lead acid battery pack. That is quite short. I would think switching out and managing, processing, disposing of these large and heavy packs that are pretty much constantly wearing out, would be more expensive in labor than the savings you get in the low cost of these packs. Especially as the cost of lithium keeps it downward cycle.
@ 1:06 is that a 5g antenna or cameras?
I guess it is a 360° camera.
Solar panels are more efficient when not hot so hopefully they are using the pond to keep the panels cool...
Interesting for hospitals, they have hundreds of mainly unused standby batteries which could be recycled like this, possibly for the hospitals themselves.
Thanks. Very interesting with Chademo.
How far away are the CCS standard from supporting V2G?
Watching this I was reminded of Hurricane Katrina that took out New Orleans and stories of how some tech savvy types used their Prius’s to back power their houses in 2005. I also heard about some multi millionaires hiring Israeli military contractors as a private army....but that’s another story!
That’s one way to reduce redundancy. However, I do question the viability of lead acid batteries with higher demand devices such as A/C in bigger cities of southern United States during the summer months especially if there’s an initial spike.
Add a few kilos of supercapacitors as a buffer to cover the spikes. That's the kind of application they're good for.
Roxor128 right! Good thinking
Next video on P2X????????
Keep up the good work love it all.
I’m lost. I’m missing some link piece of info to help me understand what’s going on
Ok. By 8.00 I think I get it
Regarding the second life battery storage units. He was talking about eventually this and that. Eventually there will be no more of these batteries used in vehicles to begin with for them to grab second hand... That is a great tech during transition but vehicles are already starting to eliminate those 12v car batteries so they better not be counting on them for the future...
Which vehicles do not have those batteries? I thought they were just making them bigger? Up to 48 volts.
As KK mentioned, the Engie representative was saying that those particular batteries are from data centers. However, most mobile phone sites / cell sites also have a fairly decent lead-acid battery backup system, and those batteries are also high quality. So there are some good sources for gently used, high quality lead acid batteries.
Even if these are lead-acid (LA) batteries used in many different applications, the general idea is to re-use and extend their usable life before recycling. It is a low tech/low cost solution which can easily be used within a V2B/V2G system. The use of LA batteries is unlikely to stop for generations and there will still be a lot of unused batteries out there which can be re-purposed. Think about it. LA battery production is still massive. If there were a sea change in industry to Lithium or other alternatives, there would be stockpiles of unused LA batteries. Do you just want to throw these all in the tip (UK for landfill) or reuse them for several years more when they are perfectly serviceable?
@@2002RM Sensible & well put.
Err, there are tens of millions of ICE cars out there...and we'll still be making new ones for years and years.......
Octopus EV are now offering a home V2G charger in a bundle with a new Nissan leaf they call it Powerloop. It appears to be a pilot, possibly even a research project? Does anyone have experience of this? I'm interested but wonder if this is a bit too early to adopt in the UK?
I’m so pleased I have CHAdeMO on both my cars now 😜👍
With V2G and the like, CHAdeMO still has a place. And may well outlive CCS.
I really like the second-use of the battery bank.
that small container would be great for houses
Yep.. that was very interesting...mobile power units..just need to develop a new app to calculate home to office to home and and use green power
both ends..it's getting more complicating but it's s fascinating a concept. A mobile power grid .
The algorithm to operate this is mind blowing...😁❤
Excellent ideas, but another “green energy” is the use of Molten Salt Reactors using Thorium & Nuke waste that cannot melt down.
The LFTR configuration also produces useful medical and scientific isotopes while producing little transuranic waste, and what is produced is shorter half life. Couple these with wind & solar and it’s realistic to reduce most combustion power plants. Oak Ridge National Labs(US) ran a MSR 30 years ago successfully for a few years as demonstration.
Is the LFTR the design which can take existing nuclear waste as supplemental fuel, or am I thinking of something different?
>^..^< Your guest in this video just mentioned all batteries are limitd to specific number of cycles. Would you know your self or know who to ask if regenative breaking counts as one cycle each time you regenerate from your kenetic energy to slow down in your EV?. If it is, this could make using one pedal driving a vary costly a common practice in the long run I suppose......
At around 10 mins it turns into scrapheap challenge / junkyard wars
Most studies and figures i've worked with suggest that it is not possible to make a Lead Acid battery storage system provide a net positive cost. ie the battery cost, even when second hand, dividing by the total charge exchange is significantly more than the cost of grid based electricity. Of course there is still some merit in using LA as load levellers that cost money, but provide an overall and highly necessary stability service to the grid. (This is because LA is fundamentally a "constant state of charge" system, and it does not support by it's very nature a deep cycling capability, which is intrinsic in a practicable ES system used for Renewable back up etc)
How much does it cost to buy a free battery which is about to be sent for recycling?
@@2002RM A typical LA 12v car battery, when new, is rated at around 50 Ah, which at 12v nominal ,means a power of 600 watts for an hour, or 0.6 kWhr (in reality, it will be significantly less than that due to voltage sag as SoC decreases). When it is worn out, ie fails to start your car, which is when they get replaced, it does that because the plates have become sulphated and therefore it's effective capacity (at cranking power, which is around 1.5 kW) is insufficient to even start the engine. (1.5Kw for 3 sec of cranking is just 0.00125 kWhr...). So the issue with worn LA batteries is their high Internal Resistance. They still have some capacity, but that capacity can only be accessed at an ever decreasing power level.
I actually did a series of tests when we were calibrating the Battery Charger and Monitoring controller (modern cars have smart charging of their LA batteries, which is why they last much longer than they used too in older cars) and an automotive LA battery that has reached Effective End of Life has something like 30% of it's capacity left, but only accessible at around 5% of it's rated power when new (~ 100w typically).
This is what renders them uncost effective, even when effectively "free" ie with each battery providing around 100w max and just 0.2 kWhr, you need a huge stack of them to provide any meaningful power, or capacity and the cost of the support infrastructure to utilise them becomes limiting
The second issue is that the recycling chain for LA batteries is slow, and has no method for maintaining their cell voltages once they have been removed from the cars they failed to start. What that means is the batteries sit, for days, weeks and even months and they self discharge (as do all batteries) and their cell potential falls. And for an LA battery, once it falls too low, electrode plating occurs and the battery is, well, it's no longer a battery. This means that a "box of batteries" received from a recycling centre are not actually viable in any sense of the word, they are simply lead blocks. The batteries shown in the video and claimed to be "recycles" may well have been second use, but they sure as heck didn't come from within the pre-existing LA battery recycling system imo.(which is a system that has been running to recover the lead from these batteries for years and years and works very well, but it isn't a system that support recovering a viable battery)
Hi. Love your videos, and V2G technology looks amazing! But, could you make video that would explain more what is the high level idea of V2G - in a world where 100% cars are EVs, how do people imagine it will work, how would drivers use it, what grids would benefits from it, etc. I get that technology to plug car to charger is there, but how will it work in the large scale? Thanks!
Probably already been done, but does the complete floating solar set up track the sun?
Doesn't look like it to me. As far as I can tell, it's basically just the same as having rows of fixed-angled panels on a large flat roof.
Roxor128 Well , as it would be simple to do, I guess the benefits aren’t that great.
@@andyphillips7435 - One of the main advantages of solar panels is minimal maintenance. Add a tracking system and you've suddenly got a whole lot more that can break down. A tracking system can add another 20-30% output over the course of a day, but unless you're in a situation where you really need that extra percentage (such as an off-grid house in the middle of Australia), it's not worth the extra maintenance.
Roxor128 .I can imagine an on land mechanical tracking system to be high maintenance but a floating array , tethered at it’s north end , would pivot easily through 120 degrees. 50 ton canal coal barges were pulled by one horse once upon a time .
@@andyphillips7435 - Oooh... Yes. That could be a hell of a lot simpler. Just a cable, two pulley wheels and a motor. Fix the pole-facing edge of the array, put the wheels on opposite sides of the lake, attach the motor to one of them, and make a trapezium between the wheels and the equator-facing corners of the array with the cable. Tracking computer turns the motor slowly over the course of the day and back again during the night.
why not on the building? or field?
Some of us have short attention spans. It would have been nice to have seen some kind of graphics or chart with colors while he was explaining how it works. But I think in the end I got it. He lost me on deeper cycles, and how that effect battery degradation in a good or bad way.
10:45 60kwh ???? That's a lot !
Doesn't seem right. I counted 16 batteries per tray, assuming 80% capacity and deep cycle batteries (not standard automobile batteries) you need 130Ah batteries to get 60Kwh from those 48 batteries. They look too small for 130Ah batteries.
@@INSOFTUSA Yeah, they look more like 60Ah batteries.
V2G seems to me to be a huge opportunity to improve the economics of electric cars.