China Miéville's points about "Harvard In-text Citations" is absolutely on the money. Talk about velvet ropes - cheap, ugly, barriers of exclusion to the pleasure and challenge of reading. I was gripping the arms of my chair listening to him.
Mr. Hart is a great teacher, a man of wisdom, a sage; he is much needed in our times. I think he's truly earned that Wise Man beard he wears. His ability to dialectically weave between questions of the social and the materiality then questions of spirit and the "mystical" is really beautiful and shows an expansive mind. He can be long-winded, grandiloquent, acidic, and sometimes I think his tone is somewhat patronizing, but any great teacher of the mysteries can be excused that, I believe.
An extremely enjoyable stream, and as a young man (22 this year) your worries of the "simpleton-ification" of language struck a cord. And just as with climate change, capitalism(which is causing the former) and modern life, it does darken the heart.
Hello, fellow 22-this-year person For some reason I had the impression most other "followers" (to put it that way) of DBH were quite older people, so a nice surprise
24y/o here. A lot of us Zillenials came to this space as refugees from the utter depravity that dominated Evangelical academia (-at least in America). Hart and those with the likes of his feathers have been a breath of fresh air. I’ve enjoyed their take on a holistic perennialism that doesn’t divulge into quantum crystal nonsense.
I resonate so much with CM's point at 20:26 Growing up as a poor kid in the Midwestern US, I always believed that every standardized test I took was an insidious work of the elite and snoody who were trying to trick me. I especially felt this in "word problems" in mathematics, where it seemed they were unnecessarily cluttering a fairly straightforward math problem with situations that poor kids were unfamiliar with... I'd never been on a train or airplane in my life (at that point), so it seemed a bizarre premise for a math problem! On the plus side, this plus my combative nature, helped me excel in school. For me, I went in to every standardized test like it was a "fist fight". I had a furious determination that I would not be tricked or looked down upon.
Very engaging conversation from all three. I think I would have loved to have Hart as a professor. Mieville in particular is a huge inspiration for me, even though we diverge in politics and I'm not a fan of half of his writing, I still very much connect to how he thinks and the way he naturally presents himself in speech. He has an excellent grasp on both academia and the everyday world, and it's clear that he has a lot of passion. He's a great example of committing to your own style, flow and voice, both as an artist and as a human who thinks and feels.
David, you’re hitting the nail on the head here! This pestilent meme logic-or meme language-is irrevocably hindering the average person’s willingness or capacity to settle down and discern complicated or relatively straightforward ideations in the written form. The ludicrously unimaginative grammar of meme logic is mere mindless repetition without forethought. And when that overtakes the mind, I don’t know what to expect later on down the road.
disagree with the last point --- the complexity of memetic grammar young people are immersed in is intense. It's a postmodern language of endless appropriation, recontextualization and reinterpretation. It's quite distant from the true the good and the beautiful, and I understand your distaste for the medium. But it's not a dumbing down, it's an adaptation to the fragmented nature of a decadent society circling the drain.
"The pathos of the animal kingdom should be our first moral concern." I'm quoting from memory here but to this I give a hearty Amen. It doesn't seem an unreasonable stretch to me to discern the fate of animals as foreshadowing our own. Thank you all for this very warm conversation.
Wonderful conversation, absolutely fascinating. Oh the name Terry Eagleton popped up in passing.... David: can your people talk to his people and arrange for you to converse?
What a wonderful conversation yet again. I understand you intend to take a break from these due to other responsibilities, but please do return to them ASAP! On a more sombre note, let me just take a moment to acknowledge your distress at being unable to converse effectively with some regarding the current ecological calamity. Regardless, thanks again for the conversation.
China Melville he is a great person, as well as an excellent writer, he won't change a thing about this horrible ultra-liberal capitalism, but he remains great. An affectionate greeting from Milan Italy
Loved this conversation! I have a bit of an off-topic question: Are there any German-speaking post-war writers that you particularly like? I have recently started discovering the literary tradition of my home country (Germany) and would greatly appreciate any recommendations.
While I can follow along with what all of you are saying, I think a point that got missed was that the register of your language can absolutely hinder your ability to speak with others at a different register. Some of us grow up connected to both the high and low class of varying IQs. In other words I grew up with a lot of poor smarty-pants and rich dummies. Clear communication can be more art than science and is always difficult because we desire that it be understood.
Your voice is a few octaves deeper than usual (a cold?). If so, hope it's nothing serious and your recovery is quick. Allergies out here in Texas are pretty bad. I seem to have trouble breathing through my nose throughout numerous months of the year. I've been learning more recently about foods that can aid with respiratory issues, such as Oregano, tomatoes, blueberries, olive oil, coffee, etc. Anyway, my original point was that I hope you get well soon and enjoying the conversations with Richard, China, and yourself.
@@jasonegeland1446 I'm grateful for the list of respiratory aids. I do suffer from a chronic pulmonary inflammatory syndrome (since a mold poisoning from 2013-2014) and everything that helps the lungs is precious to me.
I remember through some of your older posts mentioning that. I've also been watching these two doctors on TH-cam. Some of the suggestions they made, my wife and I tried and had desirable results. One of the mucus related elixirs worked well and the sleep aid (all natural). If you want to sample of their presentations, usually fairly brief, I'll place the two links below. m.th-cam.com/video/bPNdAGBMph0/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUPRHIuIEJlcmcgbHVuZ3Mg m.th-cam.com/video/uKWY_9SNr4M/w-d-xo.html
Some writers good ones say that they not write mediocre text but what they do is so far distant from common people that they just write for themself and other writers like them.
I’ve read short pieces by DBH, and I’m going to pick up some books by China and Richard, actually Disenchanted Earth thanks to this video, but I’m trying to get through Anti-Oedipus, and I wonder where neologisms fall in the purple or rococo. I’ve picked up a Deleuze dictionary to comprehend the lexicon, but it’s a bitch, and I’m definitely not a fan of the neologisms. That said, the difficulty of some authors I’m following like Brassier does draw me in as China mentioned.
Upon returning to this discussion again, I can't help but notice that China looks like he could bench press 400 lbs (or 181 kilos). Maybe it's just the black shirt he's wearing.
But we have always had this problem, especially within our religions. In Buddhism, we have scriptural literalists who take horrendous ideas as the sacred “word” of the Buddha, and we pass it down as unchangeable and infallible. The same in the western traditions. AI is now doing the same in the secular world, honing in on the most popular (and usually, least humane) aspects of society and making the horrendous and the abominable seem good and blessed. The majority has always been drawn to that which is expedient and the least impeding. A.I. has just made us consciously (self-consciously?) aware of this tendency. I think you underestimate the ability of human beings to cope with the malignancies that all innovations usher in. We’ve been doing it since the caves were our palaces. Westerners seem predisposed toward pessimism and display an almost natural inclination toward despair, gloominess, and pearl-clutching. Is it the religion or the culture? PS regarding animal suffering being a bourgeois concern - it should be. If you can afford to be concerned about the suffering of animals, then it is a moral responsibility to do so. There is no reason wealthy people should be slaughtering animals other than self indulgence.
agreed, class as a meaningful category is an outdated notion, class hierarchies are flattened a construction worker, a middle manager, a doctor, a professor, and a politician are all watching the same TV shows, eating at the same restaurants, driving the same cars, speaking the same dialects and thinking the same thoughts I mean there are minor superficial differences (say the difference between a Toyota and a Mercedes) but nothing like the vast cultural chasms that once separated the classes in western society
@@No_Ghosts That is objectively false. Yes, the broad middle class culture is more capacious than once it was, but the differences in wealth are also differences in class and social standing today just as they've always been. I'm no one to complain, enjoying the fruits of the comfortable, highly educated middle class milieu in which I grew up. But one need only take a walk on the poorer side of town (if one has the courage) to see how real and deep class division is. And it's not just economic. And not all of us watch the same TV and eat at the same restaurants. Half my friends don't own TV's, not because they can't afford one, and I use mine principally for baseball and the Criterion channel. Class is always real. And real justice is unattainable if one denies that.
@@No_Ghosts Marxist analysis hasn't abandoned class as a category at all. Not even postmodern thinkers like Judith Butler abandon the reality of class and still use it to analyze the structures of power. The modern approach is just a more intersectional one. The structures of oppression are mainly upheld by class, but to a strong degree by gender, race and sexuality as well, which means that a holistic approach has to take the relations and influences between those mechanisms into account. Intersectionality doesn't abandon one identity in favour of another, but it acknowledges the entanglement of every individual into complex powerstructures.
![ZVWS FICTION: China Miéville [October 6th 2016]](/img/n.gif)
China Miéville's points about "Harvard In-text Citations" is absolutely on the money. Talk about velvet ropes - cheap, ugly, barriers of exclusion to the pleasure and challenge of reading. I was gripping the arms of my chair listening to him.
Mr. Hart is a great teacher, a man of wisdom, a sage; he is much needed in our times. I think he's truly earned that Wise Man beard he wears. His ability to dialectically weave between questions of the social and the materiality then questions of spirit and the "mystical" is really beautiful and shows an expansive mind. He can be long-winded, grandiloquent, acidic, and sometimes I think his tone is somewhat patronizing, but any great teacher of the mysteries can be excused that, I believe.
An extremely enjoyable stream, and as a young man (22 this year) your worries of the "simpleton-ification" of language struck a cord. And just as with climate change, capitalism(which is causing the former) and modern life, it does darken the heart.
Hello, fellow 22-this-year person
For some reason I had the impression most other "followers" (to put it that way) of DBH were quite older people, so a nice surprise
24y/o here. A lot of us Zillenials came to this space as refugees from the utter depravity that dominated Evangelical academia (-at least in America). Hart and those with the likes of his feathers have been a breath of fresh air. I’ve enjoyed their take on a holistic perennialism that doesn’t divulge into quantum crystal nonsense.
I see China Mieville, I hit like, then I hit play
I resonate so much with CM's point at 20:26
Growing up as a poor kid in the Midwestern US, I always believed that every standardized test I took was an insidious work of the elite and snoody who were trying to trick me. I especially felt this in "word problems" in mathematics, where it seemed they were unnecessarily cluttering a fairly straightforward math problem with situations that poor kids were unfamiliar with... I'd never been on a train or airplane in my life (at that point), so it seemed a bizarre premise for a math problem! On the plus side, this plus my combative nature, helped me excel in school. For me, I went in to every standardized test like it was a "fist fight". I had a furious determination that I would not be tricked or looked down upon.
Very engaging conversation from all three. I think I would have loved to have Hart as a professor. Mieville in particular is a huge inspiration for me, even though we diverge in politics and I'm not a fan of half of his writing, I still very much connect to how he thinks and the way he naturally presents himself in speech. He has an excellent grasp on both academia and the everyday world, and it's clear that he has a lot of passion. He's a great example of committing to your own style, flow and voice, both as an artist and as a human who thinks and feels.
David, you’re hitting the nail on the head here!
This pestilent meme logic-or meme language-is irrevocably hindering the average person’s willingness or capacity to settle down and discern complicated or relatively straightforward ideations in the written form.
The ludicrously unimaginative grammar of meme logic is mere mindless repetition without forethought. And when that overtakes the mind, I don’t know what to expect later on down the road.
disagree with the last point --- the complexity of memetic grammar young people are immersed in is intense. It's a postmodern language of endless appropriation, recontextualization and reinterpretation. It's quite distant from the true the good and the beautiful, and I understand your distaste for the medium. But it's not a dumbing down, it's an adaptation to the fragmented nature of a decadent society circling the drain.
among us 😂
as the first trilogue its lovely to see china return, many thanks for this and all the videos
"The pathos of the animal kingdom should be our first moral concern." I'm quoting from memory here but to this I give a hearty Amen. It doesn't seem an unreasonable stretch to me to discern the fate of animals as foreshadowing our own. Thank you all for this very warm conversation.
Love you so much, China.
Thank you so much David, China, and Richard for such rich conversation. This crossover is a pleasure to listen to.
I was indeed spiritually fortified by this conversation and am blessed to live in communion with so caring and articulate souls. Thank you.
I've been sending the link of this to friends. 'Wonderful conversation...
Wonderful conversation, absolutely fascinating. Oh the name Terry Eagleton popped up in passing.... David: can your people talk to his people and arrange for you to converse?
A much needed relief from the madness. Excellent.
What a wonderful conversation yet again. I understand you intend to take a break from these due to other responsibilities, but please do return to them ASAP!
On a more sombre note, let me just take a moment to acknowledge your distress at being unable to converse effectively with some regarding the current ecological calamity.
Regardless, thanks again for the conversation.
Just a fucking phenomenal conversation, spiritually fortifying indeed!
China Melville he is a great person, as well as an excellent writer, he won't change a thing about this horrible ultra-liberal capitalism, but he remains great. An affectionate greeting from Milan Italy
This was a fantastic conversation, and China Mieville especially was inspired
Loved this conversation! I have a bit of an off-topic question: Are there any German-speaking post-war writers that you particularly like? I have recently started discovering the literary tradition of my home country (Germany) and would greatly appreciate any recommendations.
Hey, noch ein deutscher Hartianer! :)
Fire. Fire discussion.
2:10 David Bentley Dandy Hart certainly has a nice ring to it
While I can follow along with what all of you are saying, I think a point that got missed was that the register of your language can absolutely hinder your ability to speak with others at a different register. Some of us grow up connected to both the high and low class of varying IQs. In other words I grew up with a lot of poor smarty-pants and rich dummies. Clear communication can be more art than science and is always difficult because we desire that it be understood.
Your voice is a few octaves deeper than usual (a cold?). If so, hope it's nothing serious and your recovery is quick.
Allergies out here in Texas are pretty bad. I seem to have trouble breathing through my nose throughout numerous months of the year. I've been learning more recently about foods that can aid with respiratory issues, such as Oregano, tomatoes, blueberries, olive oil, coffee, etc. Anyway, my original point was that I hope you get well soon and enjoying the conversations with Richard, China, and yourself.
Actually, that's my natural voice when I'm not trying to project. The microphone was closer and I was speaking with less energy. No allergies.
That does make a lot more sense now that you explained it. I keep on striking out, lol!
@@jasonegeland1446 I'm grateful for the list of respiratory aids. I do suffer from a chronic pulmonary inflammatory syndrome (since a mold poisoning from 2013-2014) and everything that helps the lungs is precious to me.
I remember through some of your older posts mentioning that.
I've also been watching these two doctors on TH-cam. Some of the suggestions they made, my wife and I tried and had desirable results. One of the mucus related elixirs worked well and the sleep aid (all natural). If you want to sample of their presentations, usually fairly brief, I'll place the two links below.
m.th-cam.com/video/bPNdAGBMph0/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUPRHIuIEJlcmcgbHVuZ3Mg
m.th-cam.com/video/uKWY_9SNr4M/w-d-xo.html
Would love to know what the name of Dr. Hart’s essay on the nature of tragedy and theology is if anyone knows? 35:15
"The Gospel According to Melpomene" in Theological Territories (UNDP).
@@leavesinthewind7441 making my way there soon. Thank you!
Some writers good ones say that they not write mediocre text but what they do is so far distant from common people that they just write for themself and other writers like them.
7:50 excellent point
I’ve read short pieces by DBH, and I’m going to pick up some books by China and Richard, actually Disenchanted Earth thanks to this video, but I’m trying to get through Anti-Oedipus, and I wonder where neologisms fall in the purple or rococo. I’ve picked up a Deleuze dictionary to comprehend the lexicon, but it’s a bitch, and I’m definitely not a fan of the neologisms. That said, the difficulty of some authors I’m following like Brassier does draw me in as China mentioned.
Upon returning to this discussion again, I can't help but notice that China looks like he could bench press 400 lbs (or 181 kilos).
Maybe it's just the black shirt he's wearing.
But we have always had this problem, especially within our religions. In Buddhism, we have scriptural literalists who take horrendous ideas as the sacred “word” of the Buddha, and we pass it down as unchangeable and infallible. The same in the western traditions. AI is now doing the same in the secular world, honing in on the most popular (and usually, least humane) aspects of society and making the horrendous and the abominable seem good and blessed. The majority has always been drawn to that which is expedient and the least impeding. A.I. has just made us consciously (self-consciously?) aware of this tendency. I think you underestimate the ability of human beings to cope with the malignancies that all innovations usher in. We’ve been doing it since the caves were our palaces. Westerners seem predisposed toward pessimism and display an almost natural inclination toward despair, gloominess, and pearl-clutching. Is it the religion or the culture? PS regarding animal suffering being a bourgeois concern - it should be. If you can afford to be concerned about the suffering of animals, then it is a moral responsibility to do so. There is no reason wealthy people should be slaughtering animals other than self indulgence.
Can I presume that DBH believes that a moral relationship with animals in this community of consciousness precludes eating them?
31:20 this was unexpected !!
I LOVE both Leaves in the Wind and DBH, but talk of comrades and classes just makes me laugh.
Well there are such things as classes and some people are one another’s comrades. But all things in moderation.
agreed, class as a meaningful category is an outdated notion, class hierarchies are flattened
a construction worker, a middle manager, a doctor, a professor, and a politician are all watching the same TV shows, eating at the same restaurants, driving the same cars, speaking the same dialects and thinking the same thoughts
I mean there are minor superficial differences (say the difference between a Toyota and a Mercedes) but nothing like the vast cultural chasms that once separated the classes in western society
@@No_Ghosts That is objectively false. Yes, the broad middle class culture is more capacious than once it was, but the differences in wealth are also differences in class and social standing today just as they've always been. I'm no one to complain, enjoying the fruits of the comfortable, highly educated middle class milieu in which I grew up. But one need only take a walk on the poorer side of town (if one has the courage) to see how real and deep class division is. And it's not just economic.
And not all of us watch the same TV and eat at the same restaurants. Half my friends don't own TV's, not because they can't afford one, and I use mine principally for baseball and the Criterion channel. Class is always real. And real justice is unattainable if one denies that.
@@No_Ghosts Marxist analysis hasn't abandoned class as a category at all. Not even postmodern thinkers like Judith Butler abandon the reality of class and still use it to analyze the structures of power. The modern approach is just a more intersectional one. The structures of oppression are mainly upheld by class, but to a strong degree by gender, race and sexuality as well, which means that a holistic approach has to take the relations and influences between those mechanisms into account. Intersectionality doesn't abandon one identity in favour of another, but it acknowledges the entanglement of every individual into complex powerstructures.
10:00 this 1000000x
More lung-related:
th-cam.com/video/VVrdiJ75K28/w-d-xo.html