Want me to help you write better fantasy characters? Apply for my Fantasy Outlining Bootcamp: bit.ly/jeds-fa... (Cohort 4 applications close on October 14th).
Want me to help you write better fantasy characters? Apply for my Fantasy Outlining Bootcamp: bit.ly/jeds-fantasy-bootcamp (Cohort 4 applications close on October 14th).
Honestly my problem is the opposite - no matter how shallow of an archetype I start with, all my side characters end up with whole family trees, ambitions, fashion styles, personal histories... It's fun to hear from the opposite end of the spectrum!
Exactly the same here. And I know it's a problem and I'm trying to fix it but every time I sit down and go like "Okay simple, straight forward side character." My mind gets into motion and floods me with ideas of "Oh, but what if she's not who we think she is, and in truth she gonna betray the MC but wait, she had grown up with my MC, shares a spot at the same orphanage, so it creates an internal battle within her, and my MC doesn't know yet but. . ." And before I know, my character is essentially a MC of her own and requires her own POV. And I have to give the same treatment to every single one of my "side characters" which birth more side characters and now my book runs at a ludicrous 2500 pages XD
And my problem is that, I would draw some random side characters, after that I would be like 'huh, not bad'. That night when I try to sleep, and every time I feel bored, my head would be like 'HEY, HEY REMEMBER THAT CHARACTER U DREW, WHAT IF THEY RELATED TO UR OC, OH OH WHAT IF THAT ONE IS IS THE ANTAGONIST BUT HAVE A CONNECTION TO THIS ONE AND MANY MORE!' I swear I always be proud and disappointed at my imagination at the same time
My simple technique for both side and main characters is this: Shallow traits: create their looks, talking style, clothing style, how they walk, personality etc Deeper traits: create their wants, needs, what they want in a person, etc. Submerged traits: create their backstory, how they grew up, etc. then compare them to others to figure out how they interact.
Hey Jed, Aussie here. I wanted to say a big thank you to you for your informative videos on all aspects of writing. I'm currently 60% finished the first draft of my debut epic fantasy series. It's looking like it will be close to 300k words, 40+ characters and interwoven plotlines, and I wouldn't have been able to get this far if not for the videos that you and others put out. I've been working on it for nearly a year, and progress was extremely slow before I spent a week designing a comprehensive outline (completely due to your influence) and since then my writing output has increased by over 600%. Keep up the good work man!
Thank you for your video. So far, your videos have really helped me as I write my fantasy fanfic, even though it's a fanfic. They still help. I have no idea how to outline, and I have a sleeping issue. I'm tempted to sign up though for my one science fantasy that I want to write if that can be considered fantasy. Even when I went to school, I couldn't figure out how to do outlines.
You're welcome! We've had a few sci-fi authors go through the outlining bootcamp so far, so feel free to send an application in. You've got nothing to lose!
@@Jed_Herne cool. that takes care of the question that I sent you, so you don't have to answer it unless you think it's a good question. I really wanted to finish one story before going into the other, but if I could figure out how to outline the new story, that might help. I will make sure that I do finish the first story that I'm writing. I don't want to never finish a story since I started writing again.
@@Jed_Herne What about historical fantasy? My story is in ancient times with a MC from the future (our time). It's not a sci-fi time travel thing, though, but i was told because of the time travel part, I can't call it pure historical fiction.
THIS IS SO HELPFUL!!!!!! I'm outlining my novel right now.And there are more side characters than I originally planned.So now I know how to outline them!!!!! Her book idea sounds awesome!!!!
I think Reba brought up a really good point in this video. How do we write good romance? I think that'd be a really useful video for a lot of people (unless you've already made one and I somehow haven't noticed) Also don't know if this was mentioned in the last video, but congrats on 100k Jed!!!!! Been watching for a couple months now and have been loving watching these videos even though I don't even write novels
Honestly amazing video! Your always so helpfull in my writing situation (that is to say a draft.... technically.... 😅) And side character tend to be a bit of a problem for me to write, cause I either sideline them or make them the 2nd protagonist. 😂
I was thinking the same thing about the character who spews out things whenever she takes a breath as she speaks. It's a cool idea but it can get quite taxing for the reader and even for Reba, since she has to add a few lines to explain the same thing she had every time her character speaks and it can slow down the action unnecessarily. Having said that, her idea, while extremely difficult to pull out, is a good one. Making her so shy that she's pretty much mute (would also make sense due to her curse...I can imagine that a girl who spews out snakes and frogs whenever she speaks don't end up being very talkative) is one way of handling this. Another would be to tie it to her emotions. So, she spews out weird creatures when she speaks but only when she feels particularly anxious or threatened. And yeah. Every 100 words or the like is another way of handling it (the opposite to the lazy writer curse essentially. the lazy writer should spew out snakes and frogs whenever they fail to write 100 words lol). The situation Jed described would be, indeed, quite hilarious. This is one of my favorite thing about writing fantasy. Whether it's on the humorous or dramatic scale, it allows you to explore problems and situations that a real set up wouldn't allow you to approach. In any case, I wish Reba the best of success with her book and every other she'll hopefully write afterward. I'll dance to the inspiration gods to you and lite a candle to ward the bad spirits of the blank page.
The faerie curse is simple. She, or someone in her family, lied to a faerie. And the faerie retaliated with "Your words are filled with snakes, frogs, and toads, deceiver." Simple as that.
In my grimdark fantasy novel, I have an important supporting character who is meant to be a second love interest. They symbolise an escape from the protagonist's restrictive life as a princess, as well as a vessel to highlight aspects of the setting's culture and societal norms, more specifically the prejudice and discrimination rife in the protagonist's elven home kingdom. The supporting side character is from a persecuted minority group, called wolfskins, in my setting, which is prominently populated by elvens, which the protagonist is.
@@HenningBjorn It is a world set in eternal night and darkness, with an overall gothic European aesthetic, borrowing from Victorian British Gothic Revival architecture and fashion. The majority of the characters being elvens, with orcs as the secondary antagonists
I’m writing SciFi and mystery right now, but I think the lessons learned through these videos are great, and I think it’s really important to do some ideating/outlining before just jumping in. I’d love to write fantasy, but I need to make sure I stay on target and finish my other projects first! It’s no good to keep chasing ideas if I won’t finish any by having too many open projects
There was a tumblr post I saw years ago (via Pinterest) that I found helped me add something interesting to my secondary and tertiary characters. Every character should have a secret, and depending on the character and the type of secret they would either actively hide it or it might be something only their close acquaintances knew. While this method doesn't generate a complete character for you it made writing up the neccessary NPCs a lot more fun and interesting for me to incorporate into the story.
I've been told about my own writing that they like and are more intrigued by my side characters lmao. They then feel very disappointed that I kill them off in the same chapter... I write them with bit of a "formula": First, I always introduce them on the most thematically relevant moment. If the side-character is all about murder, I don't introduce them when the MCs are having a wholesome tea party. Unless that tea party goes into murder, you know... I start with an "extended archetype" that is "the quirk". This is the whole essence of the character, but I don't have to write everything as the archetype will dictate how they will behave. This allows me to quickly make an arc. It doesn't need to be fancy, but typically something that relates to their quirk. With those 2 alone, you can make quite interesting characters. The simplicity as relative "stereotyping" via rigid archetypes works for side-characters who don't have the luxury of having long-winded character arcs and intros and scenes where we can slowly piece together what makes them tick. And most importantly: They have to be relevant to your main characters' stories. Almost every side-character I write is just a personification of an opinion or a concept the main character would be dealing with at that moment. Are they sad a lonely? I'll bring in a side character who is happy and outgoing. But then I also bring in another that is a happy lonewolf. And maybe I will bring in a 3rd one that is sad and social. And then I kill them all before they can achieve their dreams.
I like this frog snake vomit thing, maybe she could have the ability to hold it in, like a cough, but it builds up and takes a lot of effort, so after giving a long speech or something, she has to puke them nonstop for like an hour or more. People with tourette's also say they can hold on their tics, but thwy kind of add up and they need to let them all out at some point and it takes a lot of focus and can make their throat raw
This sounds like an interesting twist on the Diamonds and Toads story. I might also reference the Gail Carson Levine's version, "The Fairy's Mistake', in which the gifts go all wrong. Other versions have the trinkets spilling out when the girl brushes her hair or washes her hands. I don't remember Terry Pratchett doing a version, but it would have been a lot of fun.
My biggest difficulty in writing side characters is where do i even fit them in? My protagonist is pretty much alone most of the time without many sideplots basically every character my protagonist meets is either a one off or antagonist despite some one off characters being kind of interesting
I like when circumstances force characters to travel together, so I try to use this concept. This happens often in movies/TV. And then the side characters can have opposing traits to the protagonist, which helps further develop the protagonist and allows for an entertaining dynamic.
@@AshAll3469 the protagonist spending most of the novel alone is pretty integral to the story of a sort of vagrant isolated in a sprawling city and winds up falling into a conspiracy so majority of characters are the roster of antagonists which i wouldn't exactly call any "side characters"... and the characters he meets who aren't trying to kill him generally don't stick around despite me liking a few such as a street dealer based on the RE4 merchant
@@HunterGargoyle In that case, sounds like the side characters are pretty much tools for moving the plot along. So, giving them certain unusual/distinct traits can make the brief interactions memorable. There is also the method of dedicating a chapter or two to a side character that somehow ties to the plot/provides needed background info. I’ve seen this method being used in TV lately. Could be seen as a bit jarring for some readers, but there are ways of pulling it off of it ties the plot together well.
Some plots shouldnt have too many characters. Think about your story meaning and then think what is the reason for you lifting this particular character. When it comes to where: circumstances that are random, on the road, through some important dialogue. Basically make them fit depending on their reasons, goals, etc.
Some plots shouldnt have too many characters. Think about your story meaning and then think what is the reason for you lifting this particular character. When it comes to where: circumstances that are random, on the road, through some important dialogue. Basically make them fit depending on their reasons, goals, etc.
I would totally stick to the frog and snake spewing as comedic timing. And maybe she falls for Wisteria because instead of screaming in horror Wisteria picks up a frog and says "How cute!" or something affectionate.
Want me to help you write better fantasy characters? Apply for my Fantasy Outlining Bootcamp: bit.ly/jeds-fantasy-bootcamp
(Cohort 4 applications close on October 14th).
Honestly my problem is the opposite - no matter how shallow of an archetype I start with, all my side characters end up with whole family trees, ambitions, fashion styles, personal histories... It's fun to hear from the opposite end of the spectrum!
Exactly the same here. And I know it's a problem and I'm trying to fix it but every time I sit down and go like "Okay simple, straight forward side character." My mind gets into motion and floods me with ideas of "Oh, but what if she's not who we think she is, and in truth she gonna betray the MC but wait, she had grown up with my MC, shares a spot at the same orphanage, so it creates an internal battle within her, and my MC doesn't know yet but. . ."
And before I know, my character is essentially a MC of her own and requires her own POV. And I have to give the same treatment to every single one of my "side characters" which birth more side characters and now my book runs at a ludicrous 2500 pages XD
And my problem is that, I would draw some random side characters, after that I would be like 'huh, not bad'. That night when I try to sleep, and every time I feel bored, my head would be like 'HEY, HEY REMEMBER THAT CHARACTER U DREW, WHAT IF THEY RELATED TO UR OC, OH OH WHAT IF THAT ONE IS IS THE ANTAGONIST BUT HAVE A CONNECTION TO THIS ONE AND MANY MORE!'
I swear I always be proud and disappointed at my imagination at the same time
Solve all America's problems. Vote trump
I keep a separate character workup file for each character for this very reason. I'm not alone! 🤣
It’s Worldbuilding Syndrome, just with characters this time.
My simple technique for both side and main characters is this:
Shallow traits: create their looks, talking style, clothing style, how they walk, personality etc
Deeper traits: create their wants, needs, what they want in a person, etc.
Submerged traits: create their backstory, how they grew up, etc.
then compare them to others to figure out how they interact.
Congrats on 100k subs!
Thank you for having been subscribed for over a year!
People need to book more of his courses if he has to sit in his apartment with a jacket. Give this man money for his heating 😭😭😭
Hey Jed, Aussie here. I wanted to say a big thank you to you for your informative videos on all aspects of writing. I'm currently 60% finished the first draft of my debut epic fantasy series. It's looking like it will be close to 300k words, 40+ characters and interwoven plotlines, and I wouldn't have been able to get this far if not for the videos that you and others put out. I've been working on it for nearly a year, and progress was extremely slow before I spent a week designing a comprehensive outline (completely due to your influence) and since then my writing output has increased by over 600%. Keep up the good work man!
Love to hear that!
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Thank you for your video. So far, your videos have really helped me as I write my fantasy fanfic, even though it's a fanfic. They still help.
I have no idea how to outline, and I have a sleeping issue. I'm tempted to sign up though for my one science fantasy that I want to write if that can be considered fantasy.
Even when I went to school, I couldn't figure out how to do outlines.
You're welcome! We've had a few sci-fi authors go through the outlining bootcamp so far, so feel free to send an application in. You've got nothing to lose!
@@Jed_Herne cool. that takes care of the question that I sent you, so you don't have to answer it unless you think it's a good question. I really wanted to finish one story before going into the other, but if I could figure out how to outline the new story, that might help. I will make sure that I do finish the first story that I'm writing. I don't want to never finish a story since I started writing again.
@@Jed_Herne What about historical fantasy? My story is in ancient times with a MC from the future (our time). It's not a sci-fi time travel thing, though, but i was told because of the time travel part, I can't call it pure historical fiction.
THIS IS SO HELPFUL!!!!!! I'm outlining my novel right now.And there are more side characters than I originally planned.So now I know how to outline them!!!!! Her book idea sounds awesome!!!!
This would be such a hilarious movie! I'll look forward to reading this when it publishes.
2 videos in 2 days. You spoil us.
I think Reba brought up a really good point in this video. How do we write good romance? I think that'd be a really useful video for a lot of people (unless you've already made one and I somehow haven't noticed)
Also don't know if this was mentioned in the last video, but congrats on 100k Jed!!!!! Been watching for a couple months now and have been loving watching these videos even though I don't even write novels
Honestly amazing video! Your always so helpfull in my writing situation (that is to say a draft.... technically.... 😅) And side character tend to be a bit of a problem for me to write, cause I either sideline them or make them the 2nd protagonist. 😂
I was thinking the same thing about the character who spews out things whenever she takes a breath as she speaks. It's a cool idea but it can get quite taxing for the reader and even for Reba, since she has to add a few lines to explain the same thing she had every time her character speaks and it can slow down the action unnecessarily.
Having said that, her idea, while extremely difficult to pull out, is a good one. Making her so shy that she's pretty much mute (would also make sense due to her curse...I can imagine that a girl who spews out snakes and frogs whenever she speaks don't end up being very talkative) is one way of handling this.
Another would be to tie it to her emotions. So, she spews out weird creatures when she speaks but only when she feels particularly anxious or threatened.
And yeah. Every 100 words or the like is another way of handling it (the opposite to the lazy writer curse essentially. the lazy writer should spew out snakes and frogs whenever they fail to write 100 words lol). The situation Jed described would be, indeed, quite hilarious.
This is one of my favorite thing about writing fantasy. Whether it's on the humorous or dramatic scale, it allows you to explore problems and situations that a real set up wouldn't allow you to approach.
In any case, I wish Reba the best of success with her book and every other she'll hopefully write afterward. I'll dance to the inspiration gods to you and lite a candle to ward the bad spirits of the blank page.
The faerie curse is simple. She, or someone in her family, lied to a faerie. And the faerie retaliated with "Your words are filled with snakes, frogs, and toads, deceiver." Simple as that.
In my grimdark fantasy novel, I have an important supporting character who is meant to be a second love interest. They symbolise an escape from the protagonist's restrictive life as a princess, as well as a vessel to highlight aspects of the setting's culture and societal norms, more specifically the prejudice and discrimination rife in the protagonist's elven home kingdom. The supporting side character is from a persecuted minority group, called wolfskins, in my setting, which is prominently populated by elvens, which the protagonist is.
Sounds cool
@@gaiusfulmen Thanks. What bits do you like specifically
ngl that sounds like every YA fantasy love triangle written by a woman.
Tell us more about the grim dark setting
@@HenningBjorn It is a world set in eternal night and darkness, with an overall gothic European aesthetic, borrowing from Victorian British Gothic Revival architecture and fashion. The majority of the characters being elvens, with orcs as the secondary antagonists
I’m writing SciFi and mystery right now, but I think the lessons learned through these videos are great, and I think it’s really important to do some ideating/outlining before just jumping in.
I’d love to write fantasy, but I need to make sure I stay on target and finish my other projects first! It’s no good to keep chasing ideas if I won’t finish any by having too many open projects
*Just sees thumbnail*
So....you're saying I should give them a sword? 😂
There was a tumblr post I saw years ago (via Pinterest) that I found helped me add something interesting to my secondary and tertiary characters. Every character should have a secret, and depending on the character and the type of secret they would either actively hide it or it might be something only their close acquaintances knew. While this method doesn't generate a complete character for you it made writing up the neccessary NPCs a lot more fun and interesting for me to incorporate into the story.
That's a great idea!!!! I should try that!!!
I've been told about my own writing that they like and are more intrigued by my side characters lmao. They then feel very disappointed that I kill them off in the same chapter...
I write them with bit of a "formula": First, I always introduce them on the most thematically relevant moment. If the side-character is all about murder, I don't introduce them when the MCs are having a wholesome tea party. Unless that tea party goes into murder, you know...
I start with an "extended archetype" that is "the quirk". This is the whole essence of the character, but I don't have to write everything as the archetype will dictate how they will behave. This allows me to quickly make an arc. It doesn't need to be fancy, but typically something that relates to their quirk.
With those 2 alone, you can make quite interesting characters. The simplicity as relative "stereotyping" via rigid archetypes works for side-characters who don't have the luxury of having long-winded character arcs and intros and scenes where we can slowly piece together what makes them tick.
And most importantly: They have to be relevant to your main characters' stories. Almost every side-character I write is just a personification of an opinion or a concept the main character would be dealing with at that moment. Are they sad a lonely? I'll bring in a side character who is happy and outgoing. But then I also bring in another that is a happy lonewolf. And maybe I will bring in a 3rd one that is sad and social.
And then I kill them all before they can achieve their dreams.
Can you do a detail story structure video.
Like everything you need to know about story structures.
@@prathameshrana2099 what about ways to do outlining as a pantser/discovery writer
I like this frog snake vomit thing, maybe she could have the ability to hold it in, like a cough, but it builds up and takes a lot of effort, so after giving a long speech or something, she has to puke them nonstop for like an hour or more.
People with tourette's also say they can hold on their tics, but thwy kind of add up and they need to let them all out at some point and it takes a lot of focus and can make their throat raw
I can't explain how useful this is for me in this moment of my story, thank u so much!❤
This sounds like an interesting twist on the Diamonds and Toads story. I might also reference the Gail Carson Levine's version, "The Fairy's Mistake', in which the gifts go all wrong.
Other versions have the trinkets spilling out when the girl brushes her hair or washes her hands.
I don't remember Terry Pratchett doing a version, but it would have been a lot of fun.
I think no one can write YA fantasy as good as author Sobers Rodrigues. I prefer his books over bunch of others for his unique style of storytelling.
Any books in particular?
@@chidozieezeome2847 read "Voyagers of hell". It's awesome 👌
@@chidozieezeome2847 Read "Voyagers of hell". Its awesome.
@@chidozieezeome2847 Voyagers of hell
@@chidozieezeome2847 read Voyagers of hell
The video thumbnail is incredible! 😂❤
I'm working on a menagerie of sidekicks that provoke our societal prejudicies. Mostly troublemakers and outcasts.
This is prettt much one bit ad for your platform
Thanks for the tips.
I don’t have any problems with side characters because ever character is fully developed, including the seven dwarfs.
The metaphor that the cursed sisters words are toxic and venomous is being missed.
JED BEST!
My biggest difficulty in writing side characters is where do i even fit them in? My protagonist is pretty much alone most of the time without many sideplots basically every character my protagonist meets is either a one off or antagonist despite some one off characters being kind of interesting
I like when circumstances force characters to travel together, so I try to use this concept. This happens often in movies/TV. And then the side characters can have opposing traits to the protagonist, which helps further develop the protagonist and allows for an entertaining dynamic.
@@AshAll3469 the protagonist spending most of the novel alone is pretty integral to the story of a sort of vagrant isolated in a sprawling city and winds up falling into a conspiracy so majority of characters are the roster of antagonists which i wouldn't exactly call any "side characters"... and the characters he meets who aren't trying to kill him generally don't stick around despite me liking a few such as a street dealer based on the RE4 merchant
@@HunterGargoyle In that case, sounds like the side characters are pretty much tools for moving the plot along. So, giving them certain unusual/distinct traits can make the brief interactions memorable. There is also the method of dedicating a chapter or two to a side character that somehow ties to the plot/provides needed background info. I’ve seen this method being used in TV lately. Could be seen as a bit jarring for some readers, but there are ways of pulling it off of it ties the plot together well.
Some plots shouldnt have too many characters. Think about your story meaning and then think what is the reason for you lifting this particular character. When it comes to where: circumstances that are random, on the road, through some important dialogue. Basically make them fit depending on their reasons, goals, etc.
Some plots shouldnt have too many characters. Think about your story meaning and then think what is the reason for you lifting this particular character. When it comes to where: circumstances that are random, on the road, through some important dialogue. Basically make them fit depending on their reasons, goals, etc.
I would totally stick to the frog and snake spewing as comedic timing. And maybe she falls for Wisteria because instead of screaming in horror Wisteria picks up a frog and says "How cute!" or something affectionate.
Fantasy Will Sasso
👍
First probably
0 views in 2 seconds? Bro fell off. 🤓