Kingdom Hearts BAD TAKES Bracket (ft. Kiwi!) - Regular Pat Stream
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Whether or not I actually agree with it, I love the general consensus that Donald is bad at healing. It adds some extra humor to some playthroughs whenever I die and the first thing I look at is Donald's full MP bar. At this point it's less of a "Donald sucks" and more of a "Get your shit together duck. I know you're better than this." for me.
I think the people who honestly think Disney Worlds should be scrapped don’t remember that Disney owns KH.
True and true to the second comment but I rather the Disney worlds stay because it really makes kingdom hearts unique I feel like kingdom hearts would just be a toned down final fantasy if it didn’t have the Disney worlds and I could just play final fantasy if I didn’t want to have Disney involved
I mean wanting it to happen and thinking that it ever would happen are two very different things.
Regarding the kh2 prologue being "boring"
I'm the editor the ReTranslated's video for March Caprice this year. I basically had to take Roxas' 1.75-ish hour prologue and squeeze it into an hour-long video. And how did I do this? The kh2 prologue has sooooooo much dead air. I just cut out long pauses, unnecessary background pans etc etc but had to keep all of the dialogue. And I was able to cut it down to 56 minutes.
I guess long story short, the cutscenes themselves can really drag on lol
You know its kind of funny that the arguments in the final round actually feed into each other. I dont think people would dislike the Disney stuff as much if it had more plot relevance, thus making the pacing of the games feel better instead of a weird diversion where all you accomplish is just rewatching the movie the world is based on. A good example being the Disney villain council in KH1 or King Triton just outright acknowledging that he knows about the keyblade and its purpose.
I'm a simple man. I see bracket and kiwi and I click
I'm a simple man, I see bracket and Kiwi and I click like in advance before finishing the video.
I think people who think the "eye" is MoM's actual eye probably dont realize that there is a history behind calling things eyes in media. Like in dungeons and dragons and in skyrim and WoW and all sorts of other games, magical relics are often dubbed "eyes", and usually its because they hold some significance as a tool of magical divination or foresight or are otherwise eye shaped (though not necessarily eye sized, like the eye of magus in skyrim) and extremely important to their creator because of their magical significance. What is most likely in the hilt of that keyblade (if we use other media as a comparison) is some sort of magic scrying stone that the MoM made in order to cast some sort of magical divination spell on. This is because we know for a fact he is using it to see everything the keyblade has ever been aorund to see. So it might as well be the crystal ball of the MoM, but that doesn't sound as cool as saying its his eye. Kinda like the Eye of Sauron. We see Sauron in the prologue, so when we see the giant flaming eye later we know it isnt his real eye because we saw the dude in action.
Though I will admit that there are a few occasions where the "eye of XXX"(insert character here) is ACTUALLY that character's eye that has somehow turned into a magical artifact. Such as the eye of vecna in DnD. But very often it's because the character is physically dead but too powerful to actually spiritually die,, and we dont know if the MoM is dead for sure.
I think it’s almost certainly a reference to Norse mythology where Óðinn removes his eye and in turn receives eternal wisdom which tracks with all the other references to Norse mythology they’ve incorporated into the more recent games, but I don’t see them going that literal with it. It has to be an E for Everyone game after all.
It just feels like Kiwi has an irrational hatred for something so.. Small?
I think the "Nobodies don't have hearts/emotions" thing was the initial intent, but it got retconned mid-KH2-writing-process, because there's a good few scenes/characters that feel very much like they play into the idea they can't feel anything (Demyx's pre-fight scene where he stops joking around and turns serious makes a lot better sense as "he was pretending to be a funny lil dude, but he's ultimately a cold emotionless fighter" considering how the game presents him + Org XIII beforehand, even though it still works under the current ruleset)
One of Axel's most humanizing moments in KH2 (for the sake of this discussion/argument, though of course you could argue against it, I just think it's at worst 'close enough' and works to make a point) is when he's dying next to Sora and IIRC they weren't even going to include that initially/he was going to die earlier (though I don't know if that's fact or rumor) and I imagine it might've been around that time in planning/writing they wanted to humanize Nobodies a bit more - you could also take it as "that's supposed to be when Sora realizes it and the game more obviously presents it" but I think stuff like the pre-fight Demyx scene or Xaldin's general style/storyline also leans so much on "this specifically makes the most sense if the intent is these people do truly lack emotion" that it'd be kinda odd if that transition to line up with Sora's perspective was the intent
There were a lot of things here I wouldn't exactly refer to as a 'take'. A take is generally an opinion. The Gazing Eye being MoM's real eye is a theory, not a take. A few others have a similar issue.
Of all things to get upset over, it's an eye having magical properties in a fantasy story?
It really rubbed me the wrong way while listening to
The thing about the Ice Cream line is that it's an "I" statement because Roxas still hasn't forgiven Axel for his lies, its supposed to represent the fact that Xion is the only person Roxas has left!
I don't think KH3s pacing is bad, but I do think they could have moved around a few moments to make it flow better. Why do you dave Aqua and then immediately go get Ventus? They should have had you save Aqua before moving onto the second sector and then 2 worlds later had you save Ventus to give Aqua some acclimation time. Thats my biggest one but theres a couple other scenes I think work better shuffled around, I just think the Riku-Aqua-Ventus storyline is the main sidequest and they pace the first 2/3rds of it perfectly but make the ending come too soon. I don't think its bad how it is, I personally loved KH3s story, but a couple small tweaks would make it that much better.
Saying its worse pacing than 2 is wild though. While re-exploring the worlds when you are stronger is fun, it brings the story to a screeching halt for a few hours. Again, like 3, I enjoy it, its cool going back more powerful and having extra missions to do, but you can't deny that it side tracks your main objective for a while.
Also, Tera being dumb is probably my least favorite take. Like, come on, think for 2 seconds will you?
Well, thinking Disney will be dropped from KH makes 0 sense so, fair.
I think the pacing is fine (though I agree 100% with your assessment of the Aqua plotline), I think what people mean more is that they dislike the time they spend in the Disney worlds in KH3. I find KH3 to be on par with the rest of the franchise if we’re talking story structure but because I find the worlds to be far weaker than its predecessors it *feels* more tedious and harder to go through since the content I’m engaging with inbetween the main plot is not enjoyable. At least in KH2 the first and weaker visit to each world is pretty quick to go through so you can kinda just rapid fire them and then the second visit gives you new content that isn’t just a retread of the movie plot. KH3 however, each world feels like it overstays its welcome as you’re in each world for like two hours at a time and you do all of them in succession with two minute cutscenes in between. It just gets monotonous, especially since half the worlds don’t really add anything of value. You could cut the entirety of Arendelle and just put Larxene’s reintroduction somewhere else and nothing would’ve changed for the game’s story. Same with Corona or The Caribbean. I think the KH2 method of splitting the gameplay sections into the two visits is far more successful as you’re always changing environments, you’re always engaging with something new every hour or so of gameplay. I also find the level design to factor in as most of the worlds are just large hallways where you go from A to B with very few areas that are interconnected. There are barely any places that have more than two exits, usually it’s just the place you came from and the place you’re supposed to go. Take f.e. Corona where you go through the forest to the kingdom, it’s basically just a straight path with a few stops along the way. Same thing in Olympus, same thing in Arendelle, same thing in Toy Box. Contrast that to something like Traverse Town in KH1 where you have three different ways to get to the Third District or Twilight Town where you can go to most areas of the town from any other area. Even Twilight Town was turned into a hallway in KH3 with the sewer. It’s fine for one world to be mostly a straight forward hallway but when it’s every single world, it gets stale, and that adds to that fatigue. Though this is an issue it shares with parts of KH2, DDD and even BBS so I think it’s probably less of a factor, and there are some fun areas in the game that allow for more exploration, namely San Fransokyo and The Caribbean being basically just small open worlds.
I'm early into the video, but I do want to bring up two points about the whole "Did Nomura actually plan for Nobodies to have hearts as far back as KH2?" thing.
1. I can believe he did plan this out to some degree around KH2 for the same reasons I can believe that the Ventus/Roxas stuff was something he had in his head back then. It's hard to say whether or not Roxas having Ventus' heart was the reason for the different design from the start or if they just wanted Sora's nobody to have a different design and identity as a character and then gave it more substance later, who knows, but BBS was definitely swirling around in Nomura's brain by the time he'd finished with KH2 considering the secret ending. I get the vibe that whether or not a Nobody actually has a heart was left intentionally vague, and then he later decided that he'd officially confirm it in a future entry. That's not a retcon, that's just leaving things open-ended.
2. If people want to argue that the characters say "Nobodies don't have hearts" over and over despite the fact that they emote and express feeling like they do have one at times, then that would make there being more than 1 keyblade by the end of KH1 a retcon, because many characters express that Sora's is THE Keyblade, and Riku even says "There can't be two Keyblade masters!"(or wielders, I forget exactly), a statement contradicted by the existence of 2 more Keyblades appearing in the following hours.
It's only a retcon if there's no evidence to support that the alternative interpretation could happen, and I feel like KH2 gives you a pretty open interpretation on the whole thing.
Edit: Why'd I waste my time on this point when I could have been commenting on that eye rant holy fuck
I just think that the logical conclusion coming out of KH2 (and especially after Days) was “Nobodies can feel emotions” and I think the whole “they were growing hearts” thing just adds a lot of unnecessary ambiguity and vagueness.
Like Namine has her chat with Terra days after she was born, and she could definitely feel emotions then, right? So when did she grow her heart? And how fast?
To me “they had emotions the whole time and just suppressed them” is way simpler and more sensical than “they grew hearts and could start feeling emotions after that”.
@@seqka711 Xemnas says in DDD that the body tries to grow a heart as soon as it gets a chance. I took that to mean that as soon as a Nobody comes into existence and starts interacting with people, that Nobody starts to grow their own heart. I’m not sure how much of a retcon that really is but I wanted to throw it out there
@@seqka711 Oh yeah, that's a totally fair and far more sensible explanation. Unfortunately, KH has never been good at making clear distinctions like that. As I said before, I think it was an idea in Nomura's head that Nobodies could feel/have something like hearts but it was much harder to feel than normal(almost like there was a "lock" over it, that could've been really cool and thematic actually), but I do agree that growing them again over time is maybe the strangest interpretation of that he could have went with.
Also to counteract a comment in the ‘Kairi is boring section’ where someone wrote “She’s a female character in a Square Enix game”, kinda true but also no. Square has a lot of great female characters, some of the best in all of video games. I could list a bunch but we’d be here all day. So it’s not a Square problem; it’s a Nomura problem. Even then, Aqua is a fantastic character, up there as one of the best in the franchise after Riku and arguably Xion, so Nomura definitely *can* write good female characters but for whatever reason he just doesn’t respect Kairi or is just not creative when it comes to her, and it becomes as glaring of an issue as it is because she’s supposed to be the female lead. If Naminé was boring or Larxene or honestly even Aqua I don’t think anyone would really bat an eye but because it’s Kairi, the love interest, the girl who’s fridged for the protagonist, the girl Sora sacrifices himself for, the girl that’s literally on the menu screen once you finish KH3. It’s hard not to notice the poor character writing for her. The worst part is that she used to be fun. She had spunk, she had charisma, she had chemistry with Sora and she had a better voice actress (sorry Alyson Stoner but you’ll never be Hayden Panettiere). But post-KH2 it’s evident that they just stopped caring about her and only care about her utility to the story.
that axel t-shirt goes so hard
Odin plucks out his own eye to gain wisdom. I already saw this as a direct reference to M.O.M. his eye gives him wisdom and knowledge of the future!
Also wouldn't it be crazy if M.O.M. was the final form of Luxu?! His eye was poisoned by darkness in BBS making it look funny. He hides it under an eye patch to keep it from seeing things and distorting the prophecy. Also hiding its visage from Nort so he doesn't recognize the eye.
Crazy theory i haven't seen anywhere but my brain can't escape.
38:23
If this happened at the Hot Takes tournament, I would have been sorta angry.
Not a KH2 Stan or Anti-KH3 guy, but me saying I dislike advocados wouldn’t translate to “You think advocados are worse than celery.”
But this is a VOD-on the fly thing so nbd.
idk, the hot take tournament was people submitting their takes. The person who made this bracket was in chat clarifying what they meant and admitted the wording was wrong. Pat only changed it because the creator said they would’ve worded it better if they could
@@tri1937 OOOH ok nvm.
About the whole Aurora heart thing, I swore Xehanort has a line about Terra not having the power to remove her heart
I don’t think the Disney worlds should go, removing them would remove a major identity of the franchise, but I think they need to make them more interesting. They’ve done this in the past so idk why they can’t anymore. Maybe Disney is hampering their creative freedom idk. KH1’s worlds are by far the best ones as they tie into the story and worldbuilding of the game more than any game after it but I also like the way they’re used in CoM or Days or BBS as a way to emphasize the themes of their respective games or assist in furthering character development (Terra’s visits in BBS f.e. I think is really great character work). I don’t think it should come as a surprise that this take is a more recent one since the past two games where you visit Disney worlds (DDD and KH3) just didn’t use them to their fullest so they came off as filler content instead of as moments of significance. KH3 especially, it constantly felt like the devs included the worlds out of mandation rather than as an opportunity to enhance the storytelling and gameplay. KH3’s worlds also feel like such a slog to play through as each visit to a world takes up a significant time of your playthrough and you do them all in succession so fatigue sets in real quick, whereas other games break up the Disney sections with original content that breaks up the gameplay loop and makes the playthrough less monotonous.
I feel like there needs to be a better definition for bad take than just disagreement, which is largely what this exercise devolved into. Apparently stuff like KH3 pacing is bad is only a bad take if we compare it to 2, which like, people can feel differently about the pacing of the two games. Just because you feel strongly that the beginning middle and end pacing of KH2 isn’t great doesn’t mean everyone else agrees. Both have problems, but to they’re unique to each game, and claiming that it’s a bad take to say 2 does it better feels like trying to say your opinion on story progression is objectively correct. Likewise, yes, movement and combat is much slower and, maybe not the most precise word, clunkier in KH1 compared to future games. Is it designed that way? To an extent, yes. But it’s also a game where you spend the vast majority fighting enemies; if movement and combat feels stiff, it’s not a bad take to express that opinion. KH1 is fun, but I do think clunky is a good faith criticism. For instance, Sora’s swings get deflected so often by enemies’ random invulnerability states that can occur, in some instances, mid combo. That feels clunky, it feels like you’re being cheated out of an opening you earned. Aerial enemies often have way more mobility, meaning you can whiff mid combo or struggle to land any his because Sora’s movement isn’t really designed to handle these threats. That Sora is slow and imprecise, while a legitimate design choice, doesn’t mean people can’t find it obtuse or awkward to play around. For as much as it contributes to the game’s atmosphere, I wouldn’t say clunky isn’t an apt way to describe the feeling I get playing KH1.
I know that these guys like KH1 most and find 2 to be the weakest mainline entry. That’s fine, it’s a perfectly valid opinion and one I understand. It largely hinges on valuing the atmosphere and story of the games, particularly in 1’s case, over the prioritization of combat in 2 to the detriment of other elements. But it often feels like they take these preferences as objective truths, to the point where disagreement or praise of 2 over 1 or 3 is bad faith criticism of those games. 3’s gameplay is floaty, and by that, people mean that it just feels slower and less fluid than 2. This is easy to understand by comparing 2 and 3 side by side: the former feels fast and fluid, while the latter feels slower somehow. This actually has mostly to do with the animations. In 3, there seems to be a lot more pausing between hits compared to 2, or at least half second delays between two moves in a combo that create this feeling of sluggishness. I don’t think it’s a bad take to express that view by saying Kh3 is floaty, and pretending like this argument is thrown around without actual thought by most people who criticize 3 is disingenuous. I actually liked 3’s combat a lot, but I’d be lying if I said that compared to 2, floaty isn’t the feeling I get while playing 3. Just like a lot of hot takes, it feels like they have to align with these strong opinions you have of 1 compared to 2 compared to 3 without considering that not everyone has the same preferences or love of aspects of these games as you do.
Completely disagree that 'kh3 has worse pacing than kh2' is even a bad take
TT (Roxas), HB (first visit), TT (second visit) and HB (second visit), TT (third visit) and TWTNW, all serve as a clear prologue, act 1, act 2, and act 3 respectively, a classic story structure
Kh3 doesn't have this neat of a structure it's just
MO, TT as the prologue and start of act 1, then every single Disney world before KBG, TLW, and SAC as act 3
Having plot stuff happen in the Disney worlds with the new organisation might mean the plot additions happen more often but it's just breadcrumbs that do nothing to ramp up the tension or signify any changes in the goals of the characters
The first world visits in kh2 were to reopen the lanes between, SDG knew the organisation were sketchy but while they collided with SDG, it isn't until act 2 where you revisit the world specifically to combat them after the events of HB (second visit)
Good pacing for narratives is about a consistent ebb and flow, to use a food metaphor (because food metaphors being inherently bad is also a bad take)
It's letting you save your current meal, and just as you're getting hungry, bringing out the next course, rather than just constantly bringing over little snack
Sorry if this was a bit long-winded 😅
I wouldn't even really say I dislike the pacing of kh3, I just think it's nowhere near as bad as a take as something like 'donald is bad at healing' or 'disney worlds should go'
It's a spicy take sure but not a 'you are basing this opinion on your own misunderstandings of the series core identity, plot points or gameplay mechanics' kind of take like the others
My problem with KH2's pacing is that there's a significant lack of motivation, while it may debatably make more sense from a narrative standpoint, but you have to remember that this is a videogame and that it works differently here.
Opening the Lanes Between is important, but it's also a weak justification on it's own, KH1 and KH3 didn't have much better, but you still had minor plot developments that are still important to the story. For example: in KH1, Riku kidnaps Alice and Jasmine after their respective worlds; while this isn't huge for the plot, it's still nevertheless more significant than the "The Organization now has more hearts" development that you get in the KH2 second world visits, that's a lot more arbitrary than having another one of the seven princesses now being in possession of the villains. Or how Marluxia's appearance in KoC justifies the whole endgame by telling you that Xehanort will just use the princesses in the guardians refuse to fight.
Overall, KH2 just feels much more meandering; while having a more concrete middle to KH3 would be much better than just leading you on for the whole game, it still feels much more like progress is being made than in KH2, which make the whole gameplay experience much more satisfying.
Does the KH2 Prologue even take that few hours when you're skipping cutscenes and have semi-optimal movement and fighting?
Donald is objectively bad at healing because he doesn't learn Cure until you beat Deep Jungle which is already like half the game if you think about it. So it's not that Donald is bad at healing it's that he literally doesn't heal for most of the time you'd want him in. Once you learn Cure why do you need Donald? It's a completely fucked up situation that put Donald in that only got fixed in future games by making Cure his starting Spell. Then you have to know to customize his AI properly so he heals more. Default Donald is objectively a bad healer.
So after the 2nd disney world, you’re already halfway through the game?
You need Donald for cure so you can use magic for close range shotgun like Blizzard, thunder for crowds, and fire from distance. What a bad take
Nah summer is definitely bottom half season for sure. (It is 110 degrees farenheit most days here.)