I have posted explanation to this on forums, so going to copy it here. Top20 is a list of top performing builds, not top budget builds or top builds that would work the best with poorly/averagely rolled gear. As long as I remember (and I played D2 on battle net first like in 2002 or something like that), top builds required Enigma, life skillers, hitting certain attack speed and other breakpoints which meant getting best possible versions of your gear. We tried to make builds have realistic items in terms of affixes and even promoted more affordable builds with our ranking system. But to compare them between each other we need them to be on the same playing field in terms of their gear. Because if you just spawn those builds thru GD save file editor chances are some will spawn with horrific rolls some will spawn with average some will spawn with unfairly good ones. So that won’t work. And if you are trying to look specifically for “average” rolls than you have to work out a whole bunch of criteria, like what stats are rolling averagely, all of them? Just damage? Conversions too? Now imagine the amount of additional work we should’ve put into to work out those “average rolls” criterias and then look for exactly median rolls on every spec. Don’t forget, whole project was made for free, it lasted months and it took a lot of time and effort from several GD veterans. High rolling items made sense because it’s what people always do in legit play when they are building top performing specs in arpgs and it also made sense time consumption wise because creating more deliberate critera means stalling project for even longer and possibly losing testers/participants or publishing it too late (too close to FoA release). I hope that explains it.
Everything you said is 100% correct. It also doesn't change the fact that average Joe who plays the game and doesn't know that GDStash exists is going to struggle to get close to the level of performance that is possible with well rolled items. I don't blame you for that, I'm not even particularly trying to tie this to your character, or even the thread you guys made, which I did say in the video is a list of very good builds. This is a problem with a lot of GDStashed builds. The gap between what is shown and what most people are going to get to drop. I don't know what the answer is, because if Zantai hasn't given us the seed (if there even is a universal one for all items) for max rolls by now then I don't think he's going to. I also don't think using the null seed, or minimum rolls on everything is the answer because no one is going to look at a minimum rolled character struggling with SR90 and think it's any good. Overall I do think the large variance in item rolls is a good thing, because it provides us a reason to actually go hunt the items. Well... unless you use GDStash, at which point I really do question why you bother to play Grim Dawn at all. The entire point of the game is chasing better items. When you can just print them out, why bother?
@@Paikis well we need to print them because for us, builders, game is creating new builds and to do that really well you need GDstash. Also I think it’s fair that top performance requires some amount of item hunting and that includes getting items with better rolls. But I already said that. Someone should create top20 budget or beginner builds and it would get more attention than our thread I am sure.
Honestly, I don't think it's a good idea. I hesitated to post this video because I knew it would kick off some drama that I don't really want. Making a video titled "Best" anything is a sure-fire way to have people lining up to argue with you. It's also kind of pointless because the beginner build guides exist already, everything will be out-dated when FoA hits and as soon as you get a few legendary items to drop, any budget builds are going to be eclipsed anyway. Also, as soon as a patch hits there's going to be more people lining up to tell you that you're wrong because the patch 3 hours ago made one of the builds 3% weaker. It's why you wont find a "best build ever" video on my channel.
@@Paikis We knew the risks of balance patches possibly changing things of course. But it was still worth it. Plus nobody can really do what we did, I am proud of our work.
You enjoy theorycrafting SO much more than playing the actual game, and that's perfectly fine. Most of us want to actually play the game. Personally, I guess I'd be fine with you guys marking your guides with "was theorycrafted with max-rolled items." That way I know whether or not what I'm looking at is realistic or not, depending on how long I've been playing/farming the game. I think I do not only speak for myself here, though I may be wrong, but when I look a built guides, I would very much appreciate them being true to what is reasonably farmable, and not max-rolls across the board.
I gave up trying to get my second. Took forever for my first and I've probably ran more than twice that for the second. It's so ridiculous it's not even worth it. It's not rare, it's fkin annoying lol.
@@lucien4980 I'm in the same situation. Got one of the rings, "need" two pairs (one for a Korba Trickster and another for a Morgoneth Reaper). I run the dungeon in Ultimate at least once per character, besides the odd farming, and it's still not enough.
I don’t think gd stashing is bad, it just saves your time if don’t have free 100 hours to farm some prefixes, and i don’t think it’s must have to get max rolls, just take what u got, and u can farm better versions of legendaries
remade my first character fire sorc into cold NO sabo, cause didn’t have ulzhuins set but farmed NO and almost every needed item for sabo, gd stashed only alkamos and faction items, cause farming 3% drop rate rings is hell, and I don’t roll best versions of these, just take 1 copy from stash, and with finished build just farm SR for best versions of legendaries
but because i stashed barrowholm rep (from revered to nemesis and reverse, wanted to farm helm) I can’t do ravager, i think it got bugged, guys don’t repeat my mistake, just stash faction items if u made a wrong faction choice before
Absolutely true, high rolls (not only the right rolls) on items make a huge difference, both for offense and defense. You can say "oh, it's just 2% IAS here, only 25 OA there, 5% res on that", when you add them all together it makes a great number in the final picture. This applies to any build and I guess it's true for any game with decent itemization and balance, thank you for pointing this out.
I guess editing functionality better be separate tool neither all in GDStash, i like unlimited stash functionality, but never wanted to enable editing functions. Thx for video, great as always
I have no problem with people using the editing functions in their single player game. You do you boo. I was just actually testing how big a difference those rolls make and I was surprised by the results
I was honestly surprised by how big a difference those rolls make. Especially considering how many bonuses are just set at their value by MIs and set bonuses. It's ironic that Yesnt wouldn't even make the honourable mentions of the list that Korba was top of.
So these guys with their top 20 softcore builds are using GD stashed max roll characters. I'm curious of the point of it all because they are complete fantasy builds. To me a better top 20 list would be builds that use the minimum rolls like your Yes'nt. That way a player striving for the build would merely (!!) need to find the purple items and the green items with specific affixes(!!!!!).
I think this video and the comparison is a bit disingenious, even with each item dropped for a player ONCE the expected values are at 50%, if you drop them twice you can already make an informed decision whats better for the build. Additionally you can "reroll" set-pieces via the reforge. Or craft them at the smith. Of course there is a difference to perfect items, but the average player will be much closer to the best rolls than to the worst rolls. A fairer and more accurate method wouldve been to generate a few sets with random seeds and note down their dps/etc. Also the Savage more multiplier applies to both dps numbers the same so their fraction stays the same.
Couple of things here. First, you're correct about the Savagery multiplier. The fraction will stay the same. The absolute gap gets bigger though. Second this is no more disingenuous than showing a build with high/max rolls on all the important stats. There is no good answer here, and this video is to show the gap between perfectly bad, and artificially good. I did the testing myself and was surprised that the gap was so large and figured I'd make a video about it. Third if each item dropped ONCE then you're just as likely to get every single roll maxed as you are to get every single stat at average rolls, and also just as likely to get minimum rolls. You can't make an argument about average values using a sample size of one. Also, I know I said in the video that the GDStashed items weren't completely max rolled, but do you really care? After you've got max rolls on attack speed, OA and flat damage, do you really care that you're missing out on 30% cold damage and some resistances? It's effectively a perfect item at this point.
Having a good player commiting a long time to building Korba, trying to improve rolls optimally etc and then devising proper tests comparing it to Top 20 character is the only thing that make sense. I think this video is straight up misinformation - comparing it to / playing with impossible character with GDStashed 0 seed minimum rolls instead of above average you'd normally get for most items. Don't get fooled people. This is personal vendetta rather than objective analysis.
I have posted explanation to this on forums, so going to copy it here.
Top20 is a list of top performing builds, not top budget builds or top builds that would work the best with poorly/averagely rolled gear. As long as I remember (and I played D2 on battle net first like in 2002 or something like that), top builds required Enigma, life skillers, hitting certain attack speed and other breakpoints which meant getting best possible versions of your gear.
We tried to make builds have realistic items in terms of affixes and even promoted more affordable builds with our ranking system. But to compare them between each other we need them to be on the same playing field in terms of their gear. Because if you just spawn those builds thru GD save file editor chances are some will spawn with horrific rolls some will spawn with average some will spawn with unfairly good ones. So that won’t work. And if you are trying to look specifically for “average” rolls than you have to work out a whole bunch of criteria, like what stats are rolling averagely, all of them? Just damage? Conversions too? Now imagine the amount of additional work we should’ve put into to work out those “average rolls” criterias and then look for exactly median rolls on every spec.
Don’t forget, whole project was made for free, it lasted months and it took a lot of time and effort from several GD veterans. High rolling items made sense because it’s what people always do in legit play when they are building top performing specs in arpgs and it also made sense time consumption wise because creating more deliberate critera means stalling project for even longer and possibly losing testers/participants or publishing it too late (too close to FoA release).
I hope that explains it.
Everything you said is 100% correct.
It also doesn't change the fact that average Joe who plays the game and doesn't know that GDStash exists is going to struggle to get close to the level of performance that is possible with well rolled items. I don't blame you for that, I'm not even particularly trying to tie this to your character, or even the thread you guys made, which I did say in the video is a list of very good builds. This is a problem with a lot of GDStashed builds. The gap between what is shown and what most people are going to get to drop.
I don't know what the answer is, because if Zantai hasn't given us the seed (if there even is a universal one for all items) for max rolls by now then I don't think he's going to. I also don't think using the null seed, or minimum rolls on everything is the answer because no one is going to look at a minimum rolled character struggling with SR90 and think it's any good.
Overall I do think the large variance in item rolls is a good thing, because it provides us a reason to actually go hunt the items. Well... unless you use GDStash, at which point I really do question why you bother to play Grim Dawn at all. The entire point of the game is chasing better items. When you can just print them out, why bother?
@@Paikis well we need to print them because for us, builders, game is creating new builds and to do that really well you need GDstash.
Also I think it’s fair that top performance requires some amount of item hunting and that includes getting items with better rolls. But I already said that.
Someone should create top20 budget or beginner builds and it would get more attention than our thread I am sure.
Honestly, I don't think it's a good idea. I hesitated to post this video because I knew it would kick off some drama that I don't really want. Making a video titled "Best" anything is a sure-fire way to have people lining up to argue with you.
It's also kind of pointless because the beginner build guides exist already, everything will be out-dated when FoA hits and as soon as you get a few legendary items to drop, any budget builds are going to be eclipsed anyway. Also, as soon as a patch hits there's going to be more people lining up to tell you that you're wrong because the patch 3 hours ago made one of the builds 3% weaker.
It's why you wont find a "best build ever" video on my channel.
@@Paikis We knew the risks of balance patches possibly changing things of course.
But it was still worth it. Plus nobody can really do what we did, I am proud of our work.
You enjoy theorycrafting SO much more than playing the actual game, and that's perfectly fine.
Most of us want to actually play the game. Personally, I guess I'd be fine with you guys marking your guides with "was theorycrafted with max-rolled items."
That way I know whether or not what I'm looking at is realistic or not, depending on how long I've been playing/farming the game.
I think I do not only speak for myself here, though I may be wrong, but when I look a built guides, I would very much appreciate them being true to what is reasonably farmable, and not max-rolls across the board.
The most unrealistic expectation brought by these GDStashed builds is having a pair of Alkamos rings 😤
I have 1 Alkamos ring for every 1,000 hours I have played this game. Granted I don't kill him very often.
@@Paikis so you're saying I'm due my second ring 500 hours from now? Neat!
Just gotta grind it out. Leave the game on over night to speed it up!
I gave up trying to get my second. Took forever for my first and I've probably ran more than twice that for the second. It's so ridiculous it's not even worth it. It's not rare, it's fkin annoying lol.
@@lucien4980 I'm in the same situation. Got one of the rings, "need" two pairs (one for a Korba Trickster and another for a Morgoneth Reaper). I run the dungeon in Ultimate at least once per character, besides the odd farming, and it's still not enough.
So what is the identifier that gives you all the different colors on the gear is that an extra id program?
It's a mod called Rainbow Filter. You can download from the Crate forums.
I don’t think gd stashing is bad, it just saves your time if don’t have free 100 hours to farm some prefixes, and i don’t think it’s must have to get max rolls, just take what u got, and u can farm better versions of legendaries
remade my first character fire sorc into cold NO sabo, cause didn’t have ulzhuins set but farmed NO and almost every needed item for sabo, gd stashed only alkamos and faction items, cause farming 3% drop rate rings is hell, and I don’t roll best versions of these, just take 1 copy from stash, and with finished build just farm SR for best versions of legendaries
build is cool, used it to farm every legendary item in the game, without target farmable
but because i stashed barrowholm rep (from revered to nemesis and reverse, wanted to farm helm) I can’t do ravager, i think it got bugged, guys don’t repeat my mistake, just stash faction items if u made a wrong faction choice before
tnx for the video, so whats the next build :D
Let me finish the 2 I've got going!! Also, I'll be playing some season 7 mod as well.
Absolutely true, high rolls (not only the right rolls) on items make a huge difference, both for offense and defense. You can say "oh, it's just 2% IAS here, only 25 OA there, 5% res on that", when you add them all together it makes a great number in the final picture. This applies to any build and I guess it's true for any game with decent itemization and balance, thank you for pointing this out.
Nice, I might not bother doing a video about this now 👊🙂
Do it anyway. I want to see it!
I guess editing functionality better be separate tool neither all in GDStash, i like unlimited stash functionality, but never wanted to enable editing functions. Thx for video, great as always
I have no problem with people using the editing functions in their single player game. You do you boo. I was just actually testing how big a difference those rolls make and I was surprised by the results
Thank you for the video! I've been looking forward to your take on the topic since I heard you complaining about GDStash in your previous videos.
I was honestly surprised by how big a difference those rolls make. Especially considering how many bonuses are just set at their value by MIs and set bonuses. It's ironic that Yesnt wouldn't even make the honourable mentions of the list that Korba was top of.
So these guys with their top 20 softcore builds are using GD stashed max roll characters. I'm curious of the point of it all because they are complete fantasy builds. To me a better top 20 list would be builds that use the minimum rolls like your Yes'nt. That way a player striving for the build would merely (!!) need to find the purple items and the green items with specific affixes(!!!!!).
I ruined borderlands 2 for myself like 10 years ago by using an editor. I'll never make that mistake again and use something like GD stash.
I'm hearing you mate. I ruined several games for myself when I was younger by cheating. I don't do it anymore.
I think this video and the comparison is a bit disingenious, even with each item dropped for a player ONCE the expected values are at 50%, if you drop them twice you can already make an informed decision whats better for the build. Additionally you can "reroll" set-pieces via the reforge. Or craft them at the smith.
Of course there is a difference to perfect items, but the average player will be much closer to the best rolls than to the worst rolls. A fairer and more accurate method wouldve been to generate a few sets with random seeds and note down their dps/etc.
Also the Savage more multiplier applies to both dps numbers the same so their fraction stays the same.
Couple of things here. First, you're correct about the Savagery multiplier. The fraction will stay the same. The absolute gap gets bigger though.
Second this is no more disingenuous than showing a build with high/max rolls on all the important stats. There is no good answer here, and this video is to show the gap between perfectly bad, and artificially good. I did the testing myself and was surprised that the gap was so large and figured I'd make a video about it.
Third if each item dropped ONCE then you're just as likely to get every single roll maxed as you are to get every single stat at average rolls, and also just as likely to get minimum rolls. You can't make an argument about average values using a sample size of one.
Also, I know I said in the video that the GDStashed items weren't completely max rolled, but do you really care? After you've got max rolls on attack speed, OA and flat damage, do you really care that you're missing out on 30% cold damage and some resistances? It's effectively a perfect item at this point.
Having a good player commiting a long time to building Korba, trying to improve rolls optimally etc and then devising proper tests comparing it to Top 20 character is the only thing that make sense. I think this video is straight up misinformation - comparing it to / playing with impossible character with GDStashed 0 seed minimum rolls instead of above average you'd normally get for most items. Don't get fooled people. This is personal vendetta rather than objective analysis.
By all means, go ahead. Make sure you send me s link when the video is done, I'll put it in the description