Very informative discussion! Dr. Soroush is an authority on the discussed topic. It is good to have more such discussions for the sake of enlightenment about particularly and spirituality generally.
This is a good exchange, with courteous and professional discussion - a good example to all. I found this because of Prof. Abdolkarim Soroush and appreciate knowing which other scholars are discussing Islamic reforms. Thanks for posting.
According to some beliefs, 124,000 prophets were sent to the Middle East, yet the region remains one of the most troubled areas in the world. This raises questions about the divine intentions behind such actions. In contrast, my understanding of God is that He is perfect, having no need to send messengers, and His creation reflects that perfection.
in reply to zadramm& frozahnsaid Of course Dr. Soroush doesn't want to prove that Jamaloddin was from Asadabad or Afghanistan. nationality of him is not certain and we know that he was had been in iran for a long time. but this is not the core of the discussion and there is no point to follow this issue in such a discussion. the main point is the possibility of reform in islam and the islamic culture that all of us live in. so, it seems better not to trapped in a cheap nationalism, iranian or afghan.
Ebrahim Moosa left Duke to join Notre Dame (Indiana) in 2014. The panel are correct that Americans remain limited to a cartoon view of developments in Islamic Asia, unable even to name a reformer there. Yet neither Afghanistan nor Iraq seems to be undergoing a reconstitution of Islam. The Taliban is retaking swathes of the former as the USA, placing its bets on an assertive new Afghan president, withdraws; the latter may become an appendage of Iran despite Iraqi Shiites’ dislike for Tehran’s hegemons. Religious reform seems ineffective at realigning loyalties from tribe to national state. And yes, an inside job is required; if reform is perceived as fomented by Western powers it will be rejected in favor of militancy. ISIS is more popular among the Sunnis than any of the autocrats are.
"Civilization of Islam is the civilization of law"? Unfortunately, the contributor forgot to mention that Judaism's highly sophisticated legal framework had been in place for almost 2,000 years by the time that Muhammed and his followers undertook the Hijra to Yathrib (Medina) (622 CE), the traditional start date of Islam.
It's true that Judaism has a very sophisticated legal framework. But Christianity and Islam are much larger civilizations with a lot more diversity while being Jewish meant both religion and an ethnicity.
At the end of the day, we can sit and listen to these guys, and believe me, they are very fascinating discussion, but Islam has nothing to offer to the modern world. Not in the ethical, morality dimensions, and certainly not in political philosophy or science. As a matter of fact, All 3 abrahamic religions are very much anachronistic to the modern world, and we are here not because of them, but in-spite of them.
modern world ?! still capitalistic regimes destroy millions of tons of crops to boost the prices, wage war after war to gain more control , to gain economical benefits and for whom ?? for rich people ?? inflation increases year after year and ppl live in miserable world in the name of prosperity .
I don't care what Islam offers to the modern world. The real question is: Why does modernity compulsively produce humans who are all perfect carbon copies of one culture, i.e., the Anglo-Saxon culture? Even other types of Christians, i.e. Eadtern orthodox Christians, are seen as less civilized. Something is really wrong with such an ideology
Please don't invite people who created Islamic Republic of Iran and themselves enjoying a life in the west while the Iranians are suffering because of their "brilliant" thoughts.
They didn't give marks for who are good or not , they just make intellectual discussion issues by giving an Islamic reforms attempts in the Islamic societies along the history by scholars and policians
Why this "intellectuals" are not asked 1 simple question at the beginning of the discussion - "Do you believe in any god" If they say they do - chuck them out as incapacitated.
intolerant who cannot accept and respect other peoples choices . This is the arrogance of so called secular intellectuals to reject anything with religion . It is dogmatic ,it is absurd and close minded hatred based on narrow minded hatred
@@primzilledingyv9299 You state your opinions, not facts. Faith is never a choice, it is a state of mind imposed or inculcated by your millieu in a long process of upbringing and maturing. Some can get over it, some cannot. I am not dogmatic or close-minded at all. If any god or claims of any religion convinced me I would abandon my atheism. Never happened.
15:20, Ethics and morality comes from empathy, empathy comes from imagination. The problem with religion is that it tries to define what is moral and what isn't. It tries to fix it. But morality is subjective, not objective. And if we don't have evidence that a man talked to an invisible sky daddy for 11 years in a cave, then flew off on a unicorn, then what's the point of them talking on along these lines? I can't believe these guys studied for so long, and have degrees.
@@adude3489 Empathy the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Sounds like in your example, the elephant is sad because of loss, not because of anything related to empathy.
@@adude3489 But you're claiming the elephant in your scenario was empathetic, when it appears the elephant was sad over loss. My initial comment from 10 years ago was not about sympathy. You're bringing in sympathy, therefore I don't have the need to "look it up" (I also know what it means without having to look it up).
Allah swears by what you see and what you do not see that the Arabic Quran is the utterance of an honorable messenger a revelation from the Lord of the universes. If Mohammad had uttered any other sayings against Us We would have taken away his right hand (Mohammad wrote the Quran with his right hand) then We would have surely cut off his aorta (vein) and none of you could have defended him 69:37-46 So the ones who wrote the hadith sunna and Sharia law their hands and Hearts should be cut off
Very informative discussion! Dr. Soroush is an authority on the discussed topic. It is good to have more such discussions for the sake of enlightenment about particularly and spirituality generally.
This is a good exchange, with courteous and professional discussion - a good example to all. I found this because of Prof. Abdolkarim Soroush and appreciate knowing which other scholars are discussing Islamic reforms. Thanks for posting.
According to some beliefs, 124,000 prophets were sent to the Middle East, yet the region remains one of the most troubled areas in the world. This raises questions about the divine intentions behind such actions. In contrast, my understanding of God is that He is perfect, having no need to send messengers, and His creation reflects that perfection.
Dr soroush is very good for this challenging
Thank you! Very sensible and enlightening.
He said "a civilization of law". He didn't claim that it was the only civilization of law.
Rome was another civilization of law I think
@@carlitobrigante4534 your pfp
in reply to zadramm& frozahnsaid
Of course Dr. Soroush doesn't want to prove that Jamaloddin was from Asadabad or Afghanistan. nationality of him is not certain and we know that he was had been in iran for a long time. but this is not the core of the discussion and there is no point to follow this issue in such a discussion. the main point is the possibility of reform in islam and the islamic culture that all of us live in. so, it seems better not to trapped in a cheap nationalism, iranian or afghan.
Ebrahim Moosa left Duke to join Notre Dame (Indiana) in 2014. The panel are correct that Americans remain limited to a cartoon view of developments in Islamic Asia, unable even to name a reformer there. Yet neither Afghanistan nor Iraq seems to be undergoing a reconstitution of Islam. The Taliban is retaking swathes of the former as the USA, placing its bets on an assertive new Afghan president, withdraws; the latter may become an appendage of Iran despite Iraqi Shiites’ dislike for Tehran’s hegemons.
Religious reform seems ineffective at realigning loyalties from tribe to national state. And yes, an inside job is required; if reform is perceived as fomented by Western powers it will be rejected in favor of militancy. ISIS is more popular among the Sunnis than any of the autocrats are.
we have Dr. sourosh on our language, Farsi. but you lose a real treasure for your logic and spiritual... follow him and his thoughts...
B
"Civilization of Islam is the civilization of law"? Unfortunately, the contributor forgot to mention that Judaism's highly sophisticated legal framework had been in place for almost 2,000 years by the time that Muhammed and his followers undertook the Hijra to Yathrib (Medina) (622 CE), the traditional start date of Islam.
It's true that Judaism has a very sophisticated legal framework. But Christianity and Islam are much larger civilizations with a lot more diversity while being Jewish meant both religion and an ethnicity.
At the end of the day, we can sit and listen to these guys, and believe me, they are very fascinating discussion, but Islam has nothing to offer to the modern world. Not in the ethical, morality dimensions, and certainly not in political philosophy or science. As a matter of fact, All 3 abrahamic religions are very much anachronistic to the modern world, and we are here not because of them, but in-spite of them.
modern world ?! still capitalistic regimes destroy millions of tons of crops to boost the prices, wage war after war to gain more control , to gain economical benefits and for whom ?? for rich people ?? inflation increases year after year and ppl live in miserable world in the name of prosperity .
You are wrong, if you had any idea what Islam is you would know better
+Touraj Touran. Well said, my friend.
I don't care what Islam offers to the modern world. The real question is: Why does modernity compulsively produce humans who are all perfect carbon copies of one culture, i.e., the Anglo-Saxon culture? Even other types of Christians, i.e. Eadtern orthodox Christians, are seen as less civilized. Something is really wrong with such an ideology
Please don't invite people who created Islamic Republic of Iran and themselves enjoying a life in the west while the Iranians are suffering because of their "brilliant" thoughts.
They didn't give marks for who are good or not , they just make intellectual discussion issues by giving an Islamic reforms attempts in the Islamic societies along the history by scholars and policians
Why this "intellectuals" are not asked 1 simple question at the beginning of the discussion - "Do you believe in any god" If they say they do - chuck them out as incapacitated.
Go away idiot
intolerant who cannot accept and respect other peoples choices . This is the arrogance of so called secular intellectuals to reject anything with religion . It is dogmatic ,it is absurd and close minded hatred based on narrow minded hatred
@@primzilledingyv9299 You state your opinions, not facts. Faith is never a choice, it is a state of mind imposed or inculcated by your millieu in a long process of upbringing and maturing. Some can get over it, some cannot. I am not dogmatic or close-minded at all. If any god or claims of any religion convinced me I would abandon my atheism. Never happened.
15:20, Ethics and morality comes from empathy, empathy comes from imagination. The problem with religion is that it tries to define what is moral and what isn't. It tries to fix it. But morality is subjective, not objective. And if we don't have evidence that a man talked to an invisible sky daddy for 11 years in a cave, then flew off on a unicorn, then what's the point of them talking on along these lines? I can't believe these guys studied for so long, and have degrees.
Have you seen Empathy amongst elephants when one of them dies? it's beautiful how they do it without any imagination.
@@adude3489 Empathy the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Sounds like in your example, the elephant is sad because of loss, not because of anything related to empathy.
@@raby760 look up empathy and it's difference with sympathy.
@@adude3489 But you're claiming the elephant in your scenario was empathetic, when it appears the elephant was sad over loss. My initial comment from 10 years ago was not about sympathy. You're bringing in sympathy, therefore I don't have the need to "look it up" (I also know what it means without having to look it up).
Allah swears by what you see and what you do not see that the Arabic Quran is the utterance of an honorable messenger a revelation from the Lord of the universes. If Mohammad had uttered any other sayings against Us We would have taken away his right hand (Mohammad wrote the Quran with his right hand) then We would have surely cut off his aorta (vein) and none of you could have defended him 69:37-46 So the ones who wrote the hadith sunna and Sharia law their hands and Hearts should be cut off
you cannot prove kuran with kuran.