I understand your pov, but going by the strict definition of BGG, Scythe fall more closely to 4x definition than TI4. - Explore the event tokens and factory hex with the character for bonuses and expedite your engine - Expand your territory to exploit and gain points at the end of the game. - Exploit your territories to expedite your game and engine - Exterminate your enemies for glory (2 to be exact)
@@artemisspawnofzeus7732 I think the term "extermination" was used so they could use another word with "x", I don't think it strictly means you need extermination. I think the term in context for this genre means aggression or combative actions.
A lot of the cons you brought up are why I love Space Empires so much. So much freedom and playspace but in a very focused arena which plays well at 2 players (really the only way I play), and in a decent amount of time. It's hands down my favorite 4x game and one of my favorite games (especially with the expansions). Unfortunately, like you also mentioned, it comes at the cost of being extremely fiddly. For me it's worth it, but i can see why it turns off so many players. Great video, love the content!
GMT's Space Empires 4x is the only true 4x space game - Explore upside down chits: is it a planet, a mineral, a black hole or DANGER! ? - Expand: build colony ships to settle newly discovered planets - Exploit: collect resources from you colonies as they grow - Exterminate: once everyone has expanded so far where they run into their neighbors you exterminate them, or just conquer their home world as hunting every last remnant of them down and killing it would take forever.
@@panakon366 Probably fits the bill pretty well. There's definitely exploration, as players expand outward from their starting hex, randomly revealing new ones. Combat is pretty interesting and there's even ship design and customization, stemming from a tech tree and techs discovered through exploration. Exploitation is technically there, as you get resources from colonized planets, and you can build space stations and research advanced tech to get more from them. And extermination is in the picture, as the concentric map usually encourages you to expand towards other players, fighting NPCs up to the big bad pseudo Death Star in the center hex.
@@Shelfside I have those two games as well and like them as well; however both games are limited by the different classes of ships you can have and the roles they perform where. Incidentally my first 4x Sci game that created a lifelong passion for this class of game was Stellar Conquest that I first played in 1980.
i think 3x is useful enough in that means "this is an evolution of civ....but we cut an X." Genres are not hard and fast definitions, they are lineages. If it cuts explore or exterminate doesn't change both are inspired by civ and cut out part of the 4x package for focus.
Great video. I've been thinking of these concepts for years (as I've been working on a 4X game design project). Nice to see someone else break them down so thoroughly!
Cheers! Yeah now its a running joke in our group that everything could be a 4x if you try hard enough to stretch definitions: "Oh COIN games have exploiting, exterminate, expanding, and sometimes you get cards, so that's exploring -> 3.5x!!?" -Ashton
Cool to see another one of these. 4X as a concept has always peaked my interest, but I'm more of an RTS person anyway, so I've had t accept the need to choose which of the X's I can realistically go for. I do hope I can at least try the full TI4 on TTS with friends someday, though. The combination of player count and time commitment is a rough one, but the save function should be good enough.
I think we should just drop the 4x term and call them Civ games. It's trying to adapt a PC concept (which people already argue about) and shove it into the boardgame space. The thread between them all is that you're playing the role of an evolving civilization. There is also typically a heavy imperialistic aspect to them, but evolving your own society is a key element that differentiates it from just a standard area control/war game.
The confusing part about that is that "Civ" games are already their own genre, encompassing very different types of feelings like 7 wonders, 7 wonders duel, gaia project, etc. But yeah there should be another term -Ashton
@@Shelfside Yeah, but I don't think those games are fundamentally different. It's all a matter of expanding your nation using different mechanisms. And many 4ish X board games play pretty differently from each other. I mean, Gaia Project scores differently than many, but it's still expanding and evolving your civilization. You're doing 2 of the X's (expanding and exploiting). On the flipside, some games called "civ" games don't actually feel like "civ games" to me (like, Tapestry, for example)...but that's all subjective.
@@ChrisCypherThe thing is though, Civ games are more so about upgrading your own civilisation whereas 4x games can have a different main focus like exploration or combat. Though I will agree, 4x games are pretty over saturated.
My 2 cents, most 4x pc gamers will not enjoy a 1:1 4x board games. You already hit on most of those points. A vast majority of 4x of gamers play them solo. There are way too many things to track. It's genre evolved over many decades tailored to the strengths if gaming on a pc. Rather than just drooling over a 4x board game, we should individually ask ourselves what we like about 4x and look for board games that excel in doing that one thing. I've had much more enjoyment from area control games that mostly focus on exterminate or engine building games that simulate the exploit. My favorite concept out of 4x I'd actually explore, but I haven't come across many board games that suit my preference. Closest thing for me is probably elder sign with expansions and a number of coop games where I actually feel a sense of exploration despite what's been abstracted
Whenever any discussion on 4X comes up I have to mention: Conquest of Paradise. It has one of the best exploration phases and it can technically play in about 1-2 hrs. Plus, a very unique theme which is Polynesian empires. It's designed to be more luck based, and the combat system is way simpler than something like Space Empires 4X or TI4. But at least right now I'm not aware of another game that does what it does.
Clash of cultures is considered the best at giving you the Civ PC game feel and the most common to the game. I personally would agree. Looking forward to Epoch KS next year.
yap same, its also my fav, especially since it got the different starting civs in the monumental, the expansion back then was so hard to get, and if i want more of a civ game, without the fights and less player interaction i go with nations.
It's interesting to me the smaller versions of 4x are being explained as feeling more like euro games when for me the entirety of 4x games fit that bill. I played a ton of Ti4, but I can't really separate the idea that the most resource abundant player tends to be the most ahead on all 4 axes. I know that eventually you stretch yourself thin and that politics can come into play, but the language of the game remains "Taking production output away from you is taking your ability to hit me back". Combat is there, but growth remains the bigger rock in the conflict
This was a great video and really got me thinking. From my perspective, Space Empires 4x is definitely a 4x game by definition. I sell it to people I’ve played it with as similar to StarCraft in that you have the fog or war, you uncover and discover new planets, build bases on new planets, produce resources and ships, research new technology, and hunt down all opposition! It really feels like a turn based version of an RTS computer game. I’m interested to see what you guys think of Arcs, while not 4x, it’s certainly coupled with it in so many conversations I’ve had with people
While a lot of 4X games drop this aspect, Conquest of Paradise has a reasonable game length and strong emphasis on exploration. You really want to be the player to discover and prosper on Hawaii or Aotearoa.
Well, I don't think one should take the 4X standard definition as a technical definition but a shorcut to designate the kind of games that often use these elements. For me, what's important is the ability to customise your faction during the course of the game, the ability to place units and building on a map, to fight and conquer other players with these units, the management of resources, and maybe even the presence of complex interactions.
The only true moderately sized 4X is Nexus Ops: 1. Explore tiles to find mines and resources 2. Expand conquer territory to farm resources and complete goals 3. Exploit territorial advantages and hidden troop caches 4. Exterminate the other players in battle to get VP, or win by wiping another player out. Plays in about 1-2 hours depending on players and is a standard sized box. I recommened the FFG 2nd edition over the newer one - the look is so much better and the minis, though not glowy, look awesome.
In the end when I play these games in boardgame form what I want is a game with a mix of area control/dudes on a map and eurogame with admin some resources and buildings things with some surprises between. Exploration never felt that important in those games so usually is the one left out,
There is an exploration addon for Tiny Epic Kingdoms?! 😮 Also, with the exploration tokens TI becomes a 4x. Or, If you're a bit more flexible with the definition, exploration can mean exploring different routes and opportunities of which there are A LOT in TI4. ALSO, the setup is part of the game where you are exploring the surroundings of your home planet.
I love area control games that ARENT 4x. Kemet, Blood Rage, Rising Sun, Root, GoT, Mezo... Basically strategy games with some of the aspects of 4X but without random exploration (and except for GoT, without player elimination). I am developing a game inspired in WarCraft, and mecanically close to Kemet that aims to capture the feel of a RTS, even if its turn based.
I think what sets 4X apart is that they have multiple win conditions. When those win conditions get amalgamated into a point salad where everything contributes, then it stops feeling like a 4X. In a sense, Inis feels more 4X that most of the games here. Why? Because, it has multiple win conditions that feel in line with a 4X: - eXterminating (well, dominating) other players in an area. - eXpanding by spreading your faction to six territories. - eXpoiting religion via six sanctuaries. And, in order to complete the expand and exploit, you need to eXplore to add territories to the board. Plus, sometimes you need to complete multiple of these to win. I'm not saying it's actually a 4X. It's lacking things that you'd expect like a tech tree. It's also very light on the combat. But, it feels more like a 4X than something like Eclipse that just ends after 8 rounds and people count up their points where nothing you've done feels special. These games never have the decision space of Civ. You're never having to shift from winning by having the dominant religion to having the dominant culture. You're not going to war to kill and steal the science in order to catch-up in the space race. In most of these board games, everyone is racing down the same track to reach the finish line first. It's not really any different from what Last Light is doing. The single track doesn't necessarily make these games bad, but the point salad nature makes them feel less like a 4X. They need to have more strategic and diplomatic depth than troops-on-a-map games, but they're more 4X-lite than a proper 4X. Being 4X-lite doesn't make them lesser games. It just ensures that people aren't disappointed when the game barely has an X, is missing an X, or is just points race. I also realize I'm an old man yelling at clouds, and the genre definition will always be defined by checking 4 boxes even if it's a stretch to check them all.
Of course, Europa Universalis isn't a 4X, it's a 'grand strategy'. I know, right? Time to give up on the definitions and accept that it's mostly marketing hoopla at this point.
Tiny epic kingdoms with the expansion is my favorite 4X. I even bought special meeples for each faction as a leader. Exploration is better with the expansion, as is everything else in the game. Heroes of land air and sea is a stronger 4X by the same creator. But I also like to finish in an hour or less. Tiny epic kingdoms gets better with each play and I stand by it being a 4x lol
I was jumping to the comments to be THAT guy and mention the changing of language, and then you went and threw it out there. I love 4x, and yeah I absolutely agree, I play Tapestry and it is a 4x....vibe. I don't play with anyone hardcore enough that I have to explain the asterisk and I kinda like that. You're not wrong, its absolutely lacking in the purist sense, but also people really do make a vibe assumption when they hear that and are rarely disappointed. An equivalent maybe is that I'm a Trick-taking guy. Trick taking games are super close cousins with ladder climbing and card shedding, genres I also love but with specific definitions. For the most part, unless the person I'm talking to is very particular and specific, I won't correct them if they get them mixed up, as it's just they usually mean "card game that we'll likely play together" and again, they are a vibe. The only time I've had true discrepancy was with.....reddit, where someone had to elaborate on how Linko wasnt a ladder climbing game....in my video about card shedding. So yeah...my experience is similar enough to spend my pre work time typing an essay, but not profound enough to make my own video. Thank you for doing the heavy lifting. - cheers!
You forgot one of the easiest 4x games.... Carcassonne. You Expand(The squares) You Explore(Never really know what's coming out) You Exploit(Gotta tax the towns and farm the lands) You Exterminate(Your own meeples :P )
In my opinion Board Games: Warpgate (with the expansion) and Imperium: The Contention > TI4 Video Games: Endless Legend (with the community patch), Endless Space 2, Age of Wonders 3 and Planetfall > any edition of Civilization
Haven't got it to the table yet, but I think Northgard fits the bill. However, from my understanding, the game needs a bit of polish, hopefully the expansion tunes it up.
Yeah, when I worked on a game exploration basically got cut straight way and extermination was difficult to balance. How quickly should a player be able to die? How much should the game limit that to begin with? Its an awkward design space for sure
Yep! Exploration requires a lot of time for it to be well realized... which has its own issues... then if you have a long game, then extermination gets wacky because you don't want people to sit around doing nothing! -Ashton
If you are looking for a conflict-oriented, strongly asymmetrical and challenging board game, then I can recommend Chaos Order. But it is not a 4x game :D
I feel like there is 4x term and the 'civ' (or civ builder) term that get bucketed as the same some times but are different. A game can both be a 4x and civ game or one of each. Like Imperium is a civ game but not a 4x and TI with exp is now a 4x and a civ game like Civilization. I think there is now some games that could be 4x but not have you being a civ. I think the board game term has changed a lot from the video game one. T
Yeah the word "4X" has become a buzz word or vibe. It's meaningless. It's also a very stale genre. Look at Civ 7 footage. It feels exactly like Civ 6. I'm finding myself drawn to high interaction arena style games like Dune (2019) and ARCS (arguably both 3X, no exploration). Heres the kicker for me, in 4X games like Civ my favorite X is the exploration.
Civ 7 sounds absolutely nothing like Civ 6 though? And it looks like it plays nothing like it too. How often does a 4x game just add a new continent to explore?
@@szymon_archon3514 When I watch footage of Civ 7 my mind just clicks in to civ 5 or 6. Tiles, turns, tech trees, city districts, etc. Start a new game of Civ 7 and what decisions are you making? Choose goofy immortal figurehead. Look at board game stat modifiers. I'll go explore over there, looking for good tiles. Guess I'll research pottery for the thousandth time. Sure there are differences, but the core feeling is identical. I was really hoping for a radical departure from Civ 6. On the one hand Civ 6 is arguably the greatest and massively fleshed out 4x board game experience, so you should copy it very closely. On the other hand, Civ 6 still exists and you can still play it. Imagine making a sequel to Chess. You give it new looking pieces. You change some movement rules. Is that a compelling product when the excellent normal chess still exists? What's the point if you lack strong ambition? I think they needed to rebrand Civ 6 as Civ classic and just keep making expansions forever. It's a fantastic design. Civ 7 should have been a bold and ambitions departure from tile&turn&tree board game mechanics to real time sim but with a focus on fun so not totally realistic. So not Paradox style. Civs should rise and fall through time, not randomly just transform at the start of an era. Imagine if your cities were as rich as cities skylines and combat as realistic as total war with trade like Vicky 3. Ara is a step towards this, but I wanted Firaxis to make this step because Civ has way bigger budget.
When you base a category around a theme (all the Xs are theme) then the mechanisms (and expectations of mechanisms) are based on precedent alone yet also open to interpretation. Sure you can argue and fight the change in meaning, but that’s what languages do- kinda wasted energy. Next time, base the name on the mechanism you expect.
4x is a bad name. Why the heck are the names the various 'communities' decide on total shit. Call it grand strategy. Divide it from RTS by not being real time and being at a larger scale. Thats it. I played civ, heroes of might and magic, most of the total war games, rimworld, dwarf fortress, HOI, and DOMINIONS etc. (If you dont know dominions you have ZERO business discussing '4×' games.) Ps: The grand strategy games have to be digital, if you are trying to make something of Dominions scale as a board game you are a moron and we dont have 3 weeks to play a game. Maybe thats the real problem, idiots trying to force a game like Dominions into being a board game instead of just getting a steamdeck or a table sized touchscreen. Me, I'll play in the hotseat, dont need nonesense.
I never thought of Scythe as a 4x mainly because you can easily optimise your strategy. Me and my brother can finish a game within half an hour.
I understand your pov, but going by the strict definition of BGG, Scythe fall more closely to 4x definition than TI4.
- Explore the event tokens and factory hex with the character for bonuses and expedite your engine
- Expand your territory to exploit and gain points at the end of the game.
- Exploit your territories to expedite your game and engine
- Exterminate your enemies for glory (2 to be exact)
No, you cant exterminate anything in scythe. Exterminate refers to removing a player from the game. And you dont even kill units. They just retreat.
Player elimination in a 4x board game would be retarded@@artemisspawnofzeus7732
@@artemisspawnofzeus7732 I think the term "extermination" was used so they could use another word with "x", I don't think it strictly means you need extermination. I think the term in context for this genre means aggression or combative actions.
That is a great summary! I do find it funny when people get angry when a non-4X is referred to as a 4X, like it's ok to be 3.5X and round up 😂
I have done it by accident too many times :) -Ashton
A lot of the cons you brought up are why I love Space Empires so much. So much freedom and playspace but in a very focused arena which plays well at 2 players (really the only way I play), and in a decent amount of time. It's hands down my favorite 4x game and one of my favorite games (especially with the expansions). Unfortunately, like you also mentioned, it comes at the cost of being extremely fiddly. For me it's worth it, but i can see why it turns off so many players.
Great video, love the content!
Haven't seen a video in awhile. Love the new videography in the begining. You guys are getting better every time I see you. Keep up the good work
Haha thanks mate! Keep trying to get better al the time -Ashton
These are my favorite videos from you guys!
GMT's Space Empires 4x is the only true 4x space game
- Explore upside down chits: is it a planet, a mineral, a black hole or DANGER! ?
- Expand: build colony ships to settle newly discovered planets
- Exploit: collect resources from you colonies as they grow
- Exterminate: once everyone has expanded so far where they run into their neighbors you exterminate them, or just conquer their home world as hunting every last remnant of them down and killing it would take forever.
What about Eclipse: second dawn of the galaxy? It was sitting there on table the whole time but didn't even get a mention, only some B-roll.
Clash of Cultures.
@@panakon366 Probably fits the bill pretty well. There's definitely exploration, as players expand outward from their starting hex, randomly revealing new ones. Combat is pretty interesting and there's even ship design and customization, stemming from a tech tree and techs discovered through exploration. Exploitation is technically there, as you get resources from colonized planets, and you can build space stations and research advanced tech to get more from them. And extermination is in the picture, as the concentric map usually encourages you to expand towards other players, fighting NPCs up to the big bad pseudo Death Star in the center hex.
I agree with your points, but don't forget other ones like Galactic Era or Eclipse! -Ashton
@@Shelfside I have those two games as well and like them as well; however both games are limited by the different classes of ships you can have and the roles they perform where.
Incidentally my first 4x Sci game that created a lifelong passion for this class of game was Stellar Conquest that I first played in 1980.
i think 3x is useful enough in that means "this is an evolution of civ....but we cut an X." Genres are not hard and fast definitions, they are lineages.
If it cuts explore or exterminate doesn't change both are inspired by civ and cut out part of the 4x package for focus.
Great video. I've been thinking of these concepts for years (as I've been working on a 4X game design project). Nice to see someone else break them down so thoroughly!
Cheers! Yeah now its a running joke in our group that everything could be a 4x if you try hard enough to stretch definitions: "Oh COIN games have exploiting, exterminate, expanding, and sometimes you get cards, so that's exploring -> 3.5x!!?" -Ashton
Quality video. Good stuff guys.
Cool to see another one of these. 4X as a concept has always peaked my interest, but I'm more of an RTS person anyway, so I've had t accept the need to choose which of the X's I can realistically go for.
I do hope I can at least try the full TI4 on TTS with friends someday, though. The combination of player count and time commitment is a rough one, but the save function should be good enough.
You cant have an RTS in a board game, It must be turn based. Im developing a game that is inspired in WarCraft, and mecanically close to Kemet hehe
Ohh yes TI4 on tts will be sweet. Hope to see a lot more TI4 fans in the coming future -Ashton
Age of Galaxy and (to a lesser extent) Age of Civilization are great small box "4X" games, much better than their Tiny Epic equivalents imo.
I think we should just drop the 4x term and call them Civ games. It's trying to adapt a PC concept (which people already argue about) and shove it into the boardgame space. The thread between them all is that you're playing the role of an evolving civilization. There is also typically a heavy imperialistic aspect to them, but evolving your own society is a key element that differentiates it from just a standard area control/war game.
The confusing part about that is that "Civ" games are already their own genre, encompassing very different types of feelings like 7 wonders, 7 wonders duel, gaia project, etc. But yeah there should be another term -Ashton
@@Shelfside Yeah, but I don't think those games are fundamentally different. It's all a matter of expanding your nation using different mechanisms. And many 4ish X board games play pretty differently from each other. I mean, Gaia Project scores differently than many, but it's still expanding and evolving your civilization. You're doing 2 of the X's (expanding and exploiting). On the flipside, some games called "civ" games don't actually feel like "civ games" to me (like, Tapestry, for example)...but that's all subjective.
@@ChrisCypherThe thing is though, Civ games are more so about upgrading your own civilisation whereas 4x games can have a different main focus like exploration or combat. Though I will agree, 4x games are pretty over saturated.
4x is a broad category, civ games belong to that category.
My 2 cents, most 4x pc gamers will not enjoy a 1:1 4x board games. You already hit on most of those points. A vast majority of 4x of gamers play them solo. There are way too many things to track. It's genre evolved over many decades tailored to the strengths if gaming on a pc.
Rather than just drooling over a 4x board game, we should individually ask ourselves what we like about 4x and look for board games that excel in doing that one thing. I've had much more enjoyment from area control games that mostly focus on exterminate or engine building games that simulate the exploit.
My favorite concept out of 4x I'd actually explore, but I haven't come across many board games that suit my preference. Closest thing for me is probably elder sign with expansions and a number of coop games where I actually feel a sense of exploration despite what's been abstracted
Whenever any discussion on 4X comes up I have to mention: Conquest of Paradise. It has one of the best exploration phases and it can technically play in about 1-2 hrs. Plus, a very unique theme which is Polynesian empires. It's designed to be more luck based, and the combat system is way simpler than something like Space Empires 4X or TI4. But at least right now I'm not aware of another game that does what it does.
Clash of cultures is considered the best at giving you the Civ PC game feel and the most common to the game. I personally would agree.
Looking forward to Epoch KS next year.
After the video finished and he said "let me know what games I forgot," I immediately looked for a Clash of Cultures comment
yap same, its also my fav, especially since it got the different starting civs in the monumental, the expansion back then was so hard to get, and if i want more of a civ game, without the fights and less player interaction i go with nations.
Yep, still needs to lay CoC, Daniel has played it though and likes it more than civ 2010!- Ashton
It's interesting to me the smaller versions of 4x are being explained as feeling more like euro games when for me the entirety of 4x games fit that bill. I played a ton of Ti4, but I can't really separate the idea that the most resource abundant player tends to be the most ahead on all 4 axes. I know that eventually you stretch yourself thin and that politics can come into play, but the language of the game remains "Taking production output away from you is taking your ability to hit me back". Combat is there, but growth remains the bigger rock in the conflict
Clash of Cultures is a true 4X
This was a great video and really got me thinking.
From my perspective, Space Empires 4x is definitely a 4x game by definition. I sell it to people I’ve played it with as similar to StarCraft in that you have the fog or war, you uncover and discover new planets, build bases on new planets, produce resources and ships, research new technology, and hunt down all opposition!
It really feels like a turn based version of an RTS computer game.
I’m interested to see what you guys think of Arcs, while not 4x, it’s certainly coupled with it in so many conversations I’ve had with people
Will try to cover arcs sometime, we've gotten a lot of requests -Ashton
Clash of Cultures. Pure 4x by design, theme...
While a lot of 4X games drop this aspect, Conquest of Paradise has a reasonable game length and strong emphasis on exploration. You really want to be the player to discover and prosper on Hawaii or Aotearoa.
Would love to hear your opinion on Uprising: Curse of the last emperor (4x coop game)!
Well, I don't think one should take the 4X standard definition as a technical definition but a shorcut to designate the kind of games that often use these elements.
For me, what's important is the ability to customise your faction during the course of the game, the ability to place units and building on a map, to fight and conquer other players with these units, the management of resources, and maybe even the presence of complex interactions.
I have yet to play it, but I heard March of the Ants was a 'proper' 4X condensated in a 90-120 min playtime
What do you think about Clash of Cultures (monumental edition)?
its awesome
still need to play it! -Ashton
The only true moderately sized 4X is Nexus Ops:
1. Explore tiles to find mines and resources
2. Expand conquer territory to farm resources and complete goals
3. Exploit territorial advantages and hidden troop caches
4. Exterminate the other players in battle to get VP, or win by wiping another player out.
Plays in about 1-2 hours depending on players and is a standard sized box. I recommened the FFG 2nd edition over the newer one - the look is so much better and the minis, though not glowy, look awesome.
haven't played it, but heard about it from Room and board! Seeing how its rather short... why shouldn't I :). -Ashton
No mention of Uprising: Curse of the Last Emperor? 😢
Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition had optional exploration elements with its Distant Suns counters. So it qualifies as 4X if you want it to.
In the end when I play these games in boardgame form what I want is a game with a mix of area control/dudes on a map and eurogame with admin some resources and buildings things with some surprises between. Exploration never felt that important in those games so usually is the one left out,
There is an exploration addon for Tiny Epic Kingdoms?! 😮
Also, with the exploration tokens TI becomes a 4x. Or, If you're a bit more flexible with the definition, exploration can mean exploring different routes and opportunities of which there are A LOT in TI4.
ALSO, the setup is part of the game where you are exploring the surroundings of your home planet.
4x definition does not change, 4x has a very clear definition, It's in the name itself.
Can you do a review of Arcs its a 3.5X high on diplomacy and deception need to know if its good
I love area control games that ARENT 4x. Kemet, Blood Rage, Rising Sun, Root, GoT, Mezo...
Basically strategy games with some of the aspects of 4X but without random exploration (and except for GoT, without player elimination).
I am developing a game inspired in WarCraft, and mecanically close to Kemet that aims to capture the feel of a RTS, even if its turn based.
I think what sets 4X apart is that they have multiple win conditions. When those win conditions get amalgamated into a point salad where everything contributes, then it stops feeling like a 4X.
In a sense, Inis feels more 4X that most of the games here. Why? Because, it has multiple win conditions that feel in line with a 4X:
- eXterminating (well, dominating) other players in an area.
- eXpanding by spreading your faction to six territories.
- eXpoiting religion via six sanctuaries.
And, in order to complete the expand and exploit, you need to eXplore to add territories to the board. Plus, sometimes you need to complete multiple of these to win.
I'm not saying it's actually a 4X. It's lacking things that you'd expect like a tech tree. It's also very light on the combat. But, it feels more like a 4X than something like Eclipse that just ends after 8 rounds and people count up their points where nothing you've done feels special.
These games never have the decision space of Civ. You're never having to shift from winning by having the dominant religion to having the dominant culture. You're not going to war to kill and steal the science in order to catch-up in the space race. In most of these board games, everyone is racing down the same track to reach the finish line first. It's not really any different from what Last Light is doing. The single track doesn't necessarily make these games bad, but the point salad nature makes them feel less like a 4X. They need to have more strategic and diplomatic depth than troops-on-a-map games, but they're more 4X-lite than a proper 4X.
Being 4X-lite doesn't make them lesser games. It just ensures that people aren't disappointed when the game barely has an X, is missing an X, or is just points race.
I also realize I'm an old man yelling at clouds, and the genre definition will always be defined by checking 4 boxes even if it's a stretch to check them all.
Have you tried Warpgate?
Of course, Europa Universalis isn't a 4X, it's a 'grand strategy'. I know, right? Time to give up on the definitions and accept that it's mostly marketing hoopla at this point.
Heros of Land sea and air, nuff said
Tiny epic kingdoms with the expansion is my favorite 4X.
I even bought special meeples for each faction as a leader.
Exploration is better with the expansion, as is everything else in the game.
Heroes of land air and sea is a stronger 4X by the same creator. But I also like to finish in an hour or less. Tiny epic kingdoms gets better with each play and I stand by it being a 4x lol
Would love to hear your thoughts on Gamelyn's Heroes of Land, Air, and Sea.
Cheers, it's quite long so I'm not sure how soon that can happen -Ashton
Era of tribes its my best 4x board game
Ashton, please review Vampire the Eternal Struggle 5th edition Starter kit! 🧛♂️
Not to split hairs but Tic-Tac-Toe is literally 4X.
Best comment around 😂😂😂
It's often a 5X and sometimes a 3X.
I was jumping to the comments to be THAT guy and mention the changing of language, and then you went and threw it out there. I love 4x, and yeah I absolutely agree, I play Tapestry and it is a 4x....vibe. I don't play with anyone hardcore enough that I have to explain the asterisk and I kinda like that. You're not wrong, its absolutely lacking in the purist sense, but also people really do make a vibe assumption when they hear that and are rarely disappointed.
An equivalent maybe is that I'm a Trick-taking guy. Trick taking games are super close cousins with ladder climbing and card shedding, genres I also love but with specific definitions. For the most part, unless the person I'm talking to is very particular and specific, I won't correct them if they get them mixed up, as it's just they usually mean "card game that we'll likely play together" and again, they are a vibe. The only time I've had true discrepancy was with.....reddit, where someone had to elaborate on how Linko wasnt a ladder climbing game....in my video about card shedding.
So yeah...my experience is similar enough to spend my pre work time typing an essay, but not profound enough to make my own video. Thank you for doing the heavy lifting.
- cheers!
You forgot one of the easiest 4x games.... Carcassonne.
You Expand(The squares)
You Explore(Never really know what's coming out)
You Exploit(Gotta tax the towns and farm the lands)
You Exterminate(Your own meeples :P )
In my opinion
Board Games: Warpgate (with the expansion) and Imperium: The Contention > TI4
Video Games: Endless Legend (with the community patch), Endless Space 2, Age of Wonders 3 and Planetfall > any edition of Civilization
Haven't got it to the table yet, but I think Northgard fits the bill. However, from my understanding, the game needs a bit of polish, hopefully the expansion tunes it up.
Please make a video of the best heavy games that are well optimized for 2 players!
4:14 europa universalis is actually a board game!
ahahaha yeah maybe one day we can play! -Ashton
I can't play most 4x games because of complexity or just the amount of time required. The people I game with are way too casual
Dark Ages is probably the best 4x I own, especially with bots
Yeah, when I worked on a game exploration basically got cut straight way and extermination was difficult to balance. How quickly should a player be able to die? How much should the game limit that to begin with? Its an awkward design space for sure
Yep! Exploration requires a lot of time for it to be well realized... which has its own issues... then if you have a long game, then extermination gets wacky because you don't want people to sit around doing nothing! -Ashton
Thanks for the interesting viewpoint. What are great examples of actual 4x/Civ games (or close enough not to matter)?
Guess we'll never know
Where is clash of cultures Monumental edition?
I second this
@Warrior_Whitten you are my hero
If you are looking for a conflict-oriented, strongly asymmetrical and challenging board game, then I can recommend Chaos Order. But it is not a 4x game :D
So is the starcraft boardgame a 4x?
I’m gonna start calling Monopoly a 4X now just to throw off my non board gaming friends :)
Europa Universalis is a amazing 4X
the price of power!!!
Have you tried Hellenica?
Twilight Imperium isn't 4x, it's just a really complicated race with "dudes on a map"
3X or 3.5X suffers the same problem as roguelite/roguelike, not many know the difference and even less care about the difference.
Is Game of Thrones a 3.5x game?
I feel like there is 4x term and the 'civ' (or civ builder) term that get bucketed as the same some times but are different. A game can both be a 4x and civ game or one of each. Like Imperium is a civ game but not a 4x and TI with exp is now a 4x and a civ game like Civilization. I think there is now some games that could be 4x but not have you being a civ. I think the board game term has changed a lot from the video game one. T
A new MASTER OF ORION game???
Yep, it's currently on Gamefound and launching in January :)
civ 2010 is the greatest.
Agreed
Tapestry. Beautiful and gives 4x vibes. But it is really not. Would benefit to sell as engine builder or
Aoe2 sound track ❤❤❤
Hey, since you like 4X game,s why don't you reivew Europa Universalis: the Price of Power (2023)?
4X is an approach to doing a Civ game. The original Civilization boardgame is not 4X.
Some games just work a lot better on a computer.
Why are there no platformer boardgames. That would be a much easier port.
TEK is a decent game with the expansion, but then it misses the point of the franchise. I still like tho
Yeah the word "4X" has become a buzz word or vibe. It's meaningless. It's also a very stale genre. Look at Civ 7 footage. It feels exactly like Civ 6. I'm finding myself drawn to high interaction arena style games like Dune (2019) and ARCS (arguably both 3X, no exploration). Heres the kicker for me, in 4X games like Civ my favorite X is the exploration.
Civ 7 sounds absolutely nothing like Civ 6 though? And it looks like it plays nothing like it too. How often does a 4x game just add a new continent to explore?
@@szymon_archon3514 When I watch footage of Civ 7 my mind just clicks in to civ 5 or 6. Tiles, turns, tech trees, city districts, etc. Start a new game of Civ 7 and what decisions are you making? Choose goofy immortal figurehead. Look at board game stat modifiers. I'll go explore over there, looking for good tiles. Guess I'll research pottery for the thousandth time. Sure there are differences, but the core feeling is identical. I was really hoping for a radical departure from Civ 6. On the one hand Civ 6 is arguably the greatest and massively fleshed out 4x board game experience, so you should copy it very closely. On the other hand, Civ 6 still exists and you can still play it. Imagine making a sequel to Chess. You give it new looking pieces. You change some movement rules. Is that a compelling product when the excellent normal chess still exists? What's the point if you lack strong ambition? I think they needed to rebrand Civ 6 as Civ classic and just keep making expansions forever. It's a fantastic design. Civ 7 should have been a bold and ambitions departure from tile&turn&tree board game mechanics to real time sim but with a focus on fun so not totally realistic. So not Paradox style. Civs should rise and fall through time, not randomly just transform at the start of an era. Imagine if your cities were as rich as cities skylines and combat as realistic as total war with trade like Vicky 3. Ara is a step towards this, but I wanted Firaxis to make this step because Civ has way bigger budget.
When you base a category around a theme (all the Xs are theme) then the mechanisms (and expectations of mechanisms) are based on precedent alone yet also open to interpretation. Sure you can argue and fight the change in meaning, but that’s what languages do- kinda wasted energy. Next time, base the name on the mechanism you expect.
4x is a bad name. Why the heck are the names the various 'communities' decide on total shit.
Call it grand strategy. Divide it from RTS by not being real time and being at a larger scale. Thats it.
I played civ, heroes of might and magic, most of the total war games, rimworld, dwarf fortress, HOI, and DOMINIONS etc. (If you dont know dominions you have ZERO business discussing '4×' games.)
Ps: The grand strategy games have to be digital, if you are trying to make something of Dominions scale as a board game you are a moron and we dont have 3 weeks to play a game.
Maybe thats the real problem, idiots trying to force a game like Dominions into being a board game instead of just getting a steamdeck or a table sized touchscreen.
Me, I'll play in the hotseat, dont need nonesense.
Ahhh Scythe my biggest let down since Mage Knight.
I kinda like Scythe, even though the art is all over the place