To me a bike is all about simplicity. You get on it and pedal around the world. I like the clean look of electric shifters but i don't want to worry about batteries and pay the extra money for something i don't really want. I also like the fact that i can easily fix my mechanical derailleurs. I completely agree with you on the durability problem though.
Using electronic shifting since 2017. 0 issues! 0! Not even adjusted it! The same bike has also rim brakes… and has imo better braking performance than grx hydraulic brakes on a centerlock xt rotor 😢. Lets face it… while electronic shifting is nice and durable, hydraulic braking on non mtbs is just sh*t. Maybe not for 60 kg lightweights…
Mechanical doesn't need further development, it's been very good for twenty years. The cheap stuff works better than the best stuff from the early '90s. I'm quite happy about. The future looks bright.
I bet they would sell a lot of the lower-end groupsets if they updated the look of them - but they won't, because they'd rather pump you 12, 13, 14 etc electronic groupsets...
I have a cheap RSX from the 90's and it shifts easier than my 105/GRX at least the chainrings, the rear derailleur is light anyway. But that may be because this 25+ years old mech is a bit loose...
Long live mechanical... based on what I observe in group rides it functions better and more reliably than electronic, and it's cheaper and lighter (or at least was).
@Mapdec the additional work required to change headset bearings (new hydro hoses etc) that comes with internal routing through the headset is the main reason I'm put off by that form of internal routing. In Ireland, the weather/ road conditions destroy headsets. What was a very easy job, dropping a fork out and installing new top and bottom bearing is now a couple of hours work. Surely long-life/solid oil/lifetime warranty headset bearings are a must for internal routing of this type. I know enduro xd15 , skf mtrx etc offer the possibility of extended bearing life. Just need that bearing tech in all headsets for this type of bike
If headsets were sealed properly, and sealed against the steerer tube top and bottom, then it would be less of an issue. Drives me crazy when they leave the lower bearing exposed without even a gasket.
I use boat grease on my headset bearings. Quite heavy duty, but I live in SE Asia and the wet season is a bearing killer, that grease keeps them going for a couple of years.
Hello, thanks for the video. The current levers position and shape make them accessible from both the drops and the hoods and for gears and brakes. Quite good I think. I think it's a very good idea to clean all the cables. Remove the dérailleur hanger like some SRAM system. Invent a new disc caliper that won't need an absolute flat surface that no company is able to do correctly. Maybe a single point fixation somehow? Make them less fussy. Rim brakes we're so easy to fix...
Mechanical shifting requires no firmware updates and or batteries to replace whatsoever. All of our home and business wifi cameras/surveillance/etc systems became junk the day that Belkin stopped firmware support. That's what comes to mind with electronic group sets, if the manufacturer succumbs to the poor economy or product obsolescence will they continue required firmware updates?
On the case of AXS, so many people miss the fact that the actual shifting is its own independent ecosystem (The wireless protocol is a custom one, called Airea, based on bluetooth). This is solely to power the shifting functions. SRAM can't just "End support for it". It's not your iPhone/Andriod, the system functions independently of external software. Yes, there is Firmware updates, but your shifting will run happily without them. If SRAM just decided "Ehh let's turn it off", you dont think they'd be sued to oblivion? Yes, they may end FIRMWARE updates, but the system will still run fine without them. Look at the original Sram Red Tap (Pre AXS), that was released in 2015 and was supposed to get additional updates via a USB, but never did and it functions fine. 15000 combined KM's on my AXS stuff, will never go back to mechanical
I was happiest with 2x9, less rear wheel dish, affordable quality cassettes, and shifters that could be mixed and matched without having to use a particular brand of brake lever.
I think especially Shimano reached a point where the performance with the new di2 groupsets is sooo good, I would be more than happy if they only improve durability/ serviceability and lower the price in the next few years
Clones will always exist. Well not always, but there are still batteries on ebay for very old devices. L-Twoo groupsets even come with just the battry holder and no batteries included, they take standard size lithium batteries. If manufacturers want to have wider adoption, they should move away from proprietary stuff
Totally agree about hydraulics, but electronic shifting only is not a good idea imo. Some times you just don´t have the option of recharging, some might ride in really cold temperatures or in very wet conditions, and how many times haven´t I heard of people just forgetting to charge their batteries? I have both electronic and mechanical group sets, and I love electronic shifting, but I really hope mechanical still will be available alongside electronic.
I like my old steel frames, lots of give in the ride. Still need rim brakes for them. Would like to see an electronic shifter rim brake combo that doesn't cost the earth and can be used with 12 speed cassettes. Thanks for your great content.
Agree, the ability to connect and disconnect hyrdo brakes with ease. Been trying to figure out how I could have two fork setups - one with suspension for heavy gravel and the other with regular forks for mostly road riding and be able to change them without stripping down the front end completely. I'd like a way to do that within 15 minutes - wishful maybe, but that's what I want. I prefer mechanical shifting. I think electronic will go the way of phones. They'll stop supporting them or change the battery design/voltage/ampage or something minor to phase out old stock and force you into something new.
I don't use a computer on my bike. Reason is I am tired of recharging it and keeping it up to date. For me cycling is best free from electronics. Looking for a new road bike and it will be mechanical. Just change your cables after every season and you will never have them break on you mid ride.
I use 12sp converted Red22 shifters with cables. But it's because I don't like the hood shape of any hydraulic hoods. That said, hydraulic is less maintenance. No adjustment for pad wear, and rotors and pads are largely self cleaning. Bleeding brakes is also laughably easy, not really any harder than replacing cables. I do understand the battery thing though, but with Shimano, you don't have a charge very often at all and you get ample warning. Most people will be fine just charging 2-3x a year. SRAM needs more charging but even that's not even once a month for most people. I look forward to finding hydraulic hoods I like, with electronic shifting. It's nice to not have to worry about cable contamination and stretched cables affecting your shifting. I only have AXS on my 1x TT bike and have never adjusted the derailleur since I installed it and that's after over 10k miles
@workshopninjathe1st I haven't ridden that long but I do have a good 350k miles in my legs. I've broken 2 gear cables and have been on rides with plenty of people that have broken them..along with digging plenty out of customer shifters. They certainly break. You're a singular person sample of data
I agree with you on the look and feel of modern components. I went from 10spd Record to 11spd Etap to 12spd Super Record mechanical and was so disappointed when I first laid my hands on the new components. The rear derailleur looks like cheap plastic, whereas the 10spd Record was a work of art. While the operation is flawless, apart from a warranty front derailleur that snapped all by itself after I left it in the big ring overnight, I'm seriously considering selling it and replacing it with the Etap, which I still have. Some people mention the simplicity of mechanical, but Sram wireless, for me, is as simple as it gets. It's such a pleasure to install and configure. I keep a spare charged battery in my Jersey pocket, but even that is overkill since you can always swap the batteries around in the case of an emergency. It's unlikely that both will go flat at the same time.
I can't wait for 14sp. I'm content with 12sp and would go 13 if I didn't hate how Campy feels. But I'll probably only have 2x on one of my 8 bikes when SRAM has 13sp. With 14sp, I won't have 2x on anything
true. groupsets don't give so much performance benefits compare to other components, so what should be focused on is their durability, ease of usage, compatibility etc to make them stable for people, less faff around on the bike is so much pleasant to ride and owning bikes. great video, Paul, so dedicated riding back and forth for the footages.
I have a Chinese er9 group set on my cyclo-cross bike, one feature that would really improve it would be a memory function that you could call up via the app for a 2nd set of wheels or a different number of rear gears, so you could have a 10 speed set of wheels and a 11 speed set and just call up the settings from the app.
Is 11 speed, the sweet spot for function,range and durability.for me it is? Ergonomics and winter gloves ! concealed cable runs mandatory coupling,coupling design would rapidly improve! Luckily to own a dura ace 7800 equipped bike , still my favourite functionally and aesthetically!
I don't think hydraulics and electronics will ever push out mechanicals unless their prices drop down to these for the mechanicals. I don't even want mechanicals to disappear because as of now, they are a lot cheaper to buy, a lot cheaper to set up, service and maintain. I recently switched to hydraulics in my gravel for the first time and I do appreciate their advantages over rim or cable disc brakes but it's a lot more hassle to work on them and a set of allen keys won't sort you out.
They’re pushing out mechanical now. On the road I don’t think SRAM does mechanical? Shimano has deleted Dura Ace and Ultegra at mechanical. I got my first hydraulic bike this week, don’t know why I waited so long.
You can see the same in so many industries ... we're at, or near, peak innovation with a decades old design that manufacturers end up polishing a turd, so to speak. What we need is Classified-esq thinking, or just leave it alone; there's only so many ways you can change gears. For the average consumer, like me, it's great to be able to pick up an 11sp Ultegra or 810 GRX rear derailleur for 50 quid. I'm currently swapping out some worn-out bits on a Cannondale Slate, which isn't breaking the bank. The older one gets, the more you understand marketed 'improvements' are way over hyped in order to get you to consume. I recently 'upgraded' my Smart Trainer from a Wahoo Snap to direct drive. Apart from the virtual shifting (which is kinder on your drivetrain), I can't tell the difference ... I'm so glad I didn't buy new or dump a grand on a 'top end' trainer. I'm not sure I could tell the difference!!
Yeah, stock market etc expects growth, but there isn't too much to do here. People can ride 20-30 year old bikes all the same compared to new ones. It's not like an iphone that stops getting updates and battery dies (while phone value drops so much that battery replacement is more than the phone is worth). So they have to invent new things and market them as essential to keep growth going. Or stop manufacture of old parts (but they have the problem of 8 speed as the lowest entry level group, those spare parts work with old parts).
I like electronics, but I also like mechanical perfection and simplicity. I have an e-bike, but I can ride it entirely without electronics if I'd want to. I'd like to see component development go more towards durability and longevity and am a big enthusiast of internal gearboxes for bicycles, like the Pinion for example.
One thing that would be Nice , is the ability to Exchange/Swap the handle bars , From Drops to Flat , with Hydraulic plug in hose unions for the Hydraulic brakes and as the shifters are electric wireless you can use drop levers or flat bar levers,this would not be a problem.
So many thoughts, you are in much better sync with the users/ customers than the manufakturers, hope this video will start them thinking, thank you for the amazing effort/input🤩👌🏿👍🏾👋🏾
There are dozens of reasonable priced MTB chainsets out of China that can be used on a gravel bike. 104 BCD and you can choose between 32 to 44 teeth, wide, narrow too.
As a weekend warrior, average Joe, MTB trail rider, my dream drivetrain would be a mechanical X01 10-50T 11 speed. Move the 50T cog to where the 42T cog currently is on Eagle 12 speed so the ridiculous 1st gear chainline would be improved. Then remove one of the cogs in the middle of the cassette and tweak each cog a tooth here and there to smooth out the gear spacing and use a 12 speed chain. I double, triple and quadruple tap most of my shifts on my current X01 mechanical Eagle 10-50T and since I'm not even a Strava Jockey much less a racer, I don't care about cadence and RPMs.... Call it Eagle WR (Wide Range) Trail 11 Speed and I would be in heaven.
Good points. Just because you doesn't mean you should. I have bikes with electronic group sets with hydraulics and a cable gravel bike with Paul Components Klampers cable disc brakes for bike packing so it can always be fixed in the arse end of nowhere. If you've never tried Klampers you've never realised how good cable brakes can be. 👍
I'm not excited by electronic groupsets and batteries. One more thing to keep charging. More expensive to maintain. Greater environmental impact. More needless tech in our lives. Ive never lost any sleep thinking shifting a gear was difficult on a mechanical groupset. Plus, when you need your bike, such as for the morning commute, a stiff cable is easy to sort with a few difficult shifts on route to get it moving, a flat battery is late to work or not arriving. Maybe when I get one I'll change my mind? But I worry about the environmental impact of needless batteries and like the beauty of a bike being totally human powered.
You get about 6 months plus out of a single charge. And to be honest, your bike is probably the least of your e-waste, your needless Amazon crap gadget probably creates more of an impact than a bike that you will use for 30/40/50k miles. I’ve also found it’s also less maintenance. You set up electronic, it’s not going out of trim unless you crash it.
@@neilbuckley57966 months? I got at most a few weeks & 1000km before needing to recharge. God forbid needing to recharge when you're 100's of kms from home without a spare battery or charger. For me mechanical is simpler & easier to live with on a day to day basis. Pro's can use electronic shifting. There's no need for me to pay extra for it when mechanical does the exact same thing for much less $
@@neilbuckley5796 6 months? You have to ride so little it's not even worth having a bike to last that long. Plus stripping cables that can be recycling is infinitely better than more li-ion cells that are knackered at 500 charge cycles
Dry-break couplings for hydraulics exist now. They just need some innovation and thought to be made small enough to function in fully integrated (handlebar) systems.
In terms of internally routed brakes, Formula’s speed lock is a great work around as it allows you to disconnect your hose at the caliper without having to bleed them again. It would be great to see some sort of universal version of this (as well as a universal hose OD) as it would genuinely make so much sense
Recently had to replace a headset bearing on my fully integrated Orbea Orca OMX. It really wasn’t that bad of a job and if you’re just doing the lower bearing you can actually disconnect the brake, have enough cable to pull the fork out and replace the bearing. For me personally, I love internal cable routing. The looks outweigh the one or two times a year I might need to replace a cable or bearing!
Formula made a quick disconnect for brakes many years ago. They were a little bulky but they have a huge opportunity to revisit this again now the market is so big.
"Formula SpeedLock" You can still get them not sure if they are NOS as this point though. But I agree no reason these things shouldn't exist I'm surprised its not and aftermarket thing because it could be made almost universal as any olive/brab's that connector needs to terminate the hoses do not need to be the same as the ones in levers/calipers, maybe 2 different O-rings/seal types for DOT or mineral fluids but that's it.
I agree. They could just be a bit smaller for internal routes through bars etc. other than that I remember them to be very good 👍🏼 I’d imagine if the O-rings were dot and mineral specific they’d work@@chris1275cc
agree on the transition between shifters and bar -keep looking at what i can do to fill/cover it. agree on refining/evolving details in general rather than changing for its own sake. I have two chainring sets for my rival axs groupset and it's relatively easy to swop them without removing crankset. for years i've wondered why there cannot be a detail on seatpost and stem that fixes the alignment without trying to align by eye to get it in line with frame/straight - just needs a notch or even a mark on stem and frame.
I have an injury which that transition irritates - for years what has worked has been using stacked small sections of old bar tape. Make a cut length ways from the thicker centre so cutting the tape in half then using the tapered edge to make a ramp up to plastic from the bar, I put doublesided sticky tape on the reverse then wind a layer of electrical tape to fasten on top and it stays in place... may need to stack a few layers but its possible to achieve a perfect smooth and padded transition, better than any gel pad malarkey. Makes such a difference as any pressure points can be bad for things like carpal tunnel. It seems its almost impossible for the manufacturers to get this right as there's too many possibilities for bar shape top curve - a molded in flexible rubber section would work wonders here. I felt better about having to do this after learning that some pro tours mechanics go to great lengths to make this right for their riders too...
Good points - and another question - why is it that we always have to buy new derailleurs? It‘s possible to do that from say 7 Speed up to 13 speed with the same shifters and derailleurs! Did anyhody say EDS 🤪
FD must have different cage width to every speed, u can use 8sp chain with 12 speed front derailleur f ex. And jokey wheels in RD are also a bit speed dependent but no so much
1x RDs and 2x RDs have different pulley wheel offsets; parallelograms are also different for different cassettes. Honestly other than fundamental geometric differences there’s no excuse we need to keep changing rear derailleurs every generation. Saying that I still wish it was possible to run something like a 11-40 for 12/13 speed on a 2x system.
With SRAM, I'm still using a 10sp RD on a 2x12 bike...Ratio Technology ratchet conversion. They have a ratchet that would let me run it as 13sp too(same RD) but I don't like the available cassettes just yet.
I totally agree with you to implement an USB C charging port directly to the battery. When you are on long rides or travelling it would be much easier to charge the (spare) battery 🔋 with a powerbank. Regarding the gearing for adventurous rides or bikepacking on gravelbikes Campagnolo does the job very well - the Ekar GT is also available with a 36 T chainring. Gravelbikes are still overgeared. Personally I run a custom 26-42 chainset on my gravelbike. I would also appreciate a more modular construction of the chain sets by those two S-Brands (separate spindle) and a product name that includes the chainline. Furthermore crank lengths in 2.5mm steps from 150mm to 180mm. A tri lobe design (similar to Look cranks) could do the job.
We don't need 13 gears in back. We didn't need 12. I disagree that cable-operated shifting and braking are dead. Both are very simple to maintain, and that's what a large number of cyclists want. All these desired innovations will make bikes more expensive, harder to maintain, and just a lot less accessible to many potential riders. Is that where we really want to go?
I agree about through-headset cable routing. If you know your own bike, know what you need to do, and know how to do it, then not only is it not a problem, it's great. I happily take it over having a cable lump under my bar tape, or cables rubbing the paint of my headtube. Electric shifting with hydraulic brakes through-headset routed is the ultimate solution. It's way easier to set up than mechanical shifting, more reliable, and more convenient. I don't understand how people can argue that mechanical shifting is more reliable and serviceable. I mean if you face a problem in the field, you only need cable cutters, cable tension puller, spare cable farrings, possibly a spare cable, spare cable end crimps, cable crimp tool...
Your point about auto-detecting derailleur misalignment is interesting. Technically, it's not really feasible-- introducing sensors to do this would introduce too many problems. But we could make it much easier to micro-adjust. To do it now, you're off the bike and messing with an app. But what if you could press and hold both shift buttons and once to enter a calibration mode (or some other simple trigger), and then tap to micro-adjust your current gear? Tap both at once to leave the mode. Simple, quick, and you can use your ears and feet to tell when you're off a bit just as you would with mechanical.
Di2 user here with a few thoughts. The buttons on top of Ultegra and Dura-Ace shifters need to be a lot bigger, very easy to miss with winter gloves on. And I agree that more buttons would be good. Individual sprockets so you can make up your own cassette ratios. I use Miche on my 11 speeds so I can get exactly the cassette I want. Would be nice if Shimano did 12 speed 11-32, just change the last 2 cogs from an 11-30 to 28 and 32. And yes I completely agree with the comfort on the shifter hoods comment. I double tape under them to improve comfort but it doesnt look good as the hoods are not designed for it.
The end of external cables routing for me is a must have, but with a simpler solution to do so. A rigid routing of hydro brake cables in the bars and steam would be a good idea ? Electronic boutons would be such a good idea ! With usb C connectors of course !!!
I have to say 1X13 works perfectly for me. I sold my Shimano DI2 and got the Ekar group set and I really prefer that. No big gaps and no problems with going really fast or really slow and I have never ever had a shift cable break on any bike, and I ride a lot and have done so for many years. There have also been some problems with SRAMs rear derailleurs on ultra distace events. So not something I'm willing to risk. I can not understand how the thumb shift lever is in the way of your hand, its behind the thumb... you must be holding the hoods in some strange way?
100% with you on aesthetics of the modern stuff. Doesn’t have to be silver, ‘cause look at what they did to silver Grx, but pretty and svelte… I have 6800 on a couple of bikes for aesthetics on a skinny old school frame.
Groupset especially the shifters/derailleurs is the perfect money trap for beginners, because that's the most obvious parts on a sports bike, and is the most obvious part for any one with any level of bike experience or fitness levels to "feel it" immediately. That becomes the perfect handle for selling bikes! It took me long enough to know that the "Drive train" or "shifters" won't make you any faster at all! And that "Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105..." knowledge is just what the brands put in your mind. From a performance perspective, these stuff doesn't matter at all! That's me after thousands kilometers, completely understanding power and how to use power meter, have trained seriously with power, get a lot stronger, then understand the aerodynamics, the rolling resistance, just to get a little bit faster... After all this, suddenly I just find that the shifters just doesn't matter. The tyre is the most dominant part in speed, after that is your position, your clothes, then maybe deep wheels and helmets. The pros are using the most expensive shifting systems because that's just how sponsorship works. Pogi or Vingi would still win TdF no matter what speed of drivetrain they are using. There's no "shifter's speed" in the equation of watts/kg. If 8 speed is a little bit of a stretch in the Tour, then 10 speed will be perfectly fine! For anyone seriously interested in getting faster, instead of just playing "mechanics", I'd say stay away from those stuff and get yourself some real kit. I now just ride whatever speed that drive train comes with. 8,10,11... That just doesn't matter. When on the road I just completely forget about them, at all!
My ideal groupset would be a 2x11 or even 2x10 full mechanical Campagnolo using: - the same sort of materials, design, lever ergonomics and very similar weights as the 2015+ Chorus/Record - a long cage derailleur option that goes up to 34T sprockets (as the latest 12 speed Chorus does) - a 46/30 carbon crankset option using standard 5-bolt 110/74 or 130/74 BCD chainrings (a redesigned version of the pre-2015 Campagnolo cranksets would work at a pinch) - rim brakes with plenty of clearance for actual 28C tyres and ball bearings (basically the latest 12S Chorus calipers but with bearings as per the 2015+ Record and Super Record brake calipers) - CNC-machined cassettes from a single block of steel (as per the EDCO design being also used by Classified with their 2x rear hubs) All that for a total groupset weight of ~2000 g and a total cost probably around 1000-1200€ (similar to the current Chorus). And I'd also kill for a 19C or 20C rim version of the Zonda wheelset with a similar ~1550g weight and the same bombproof construction. But unfortunately Campagnolo is too busy making overpriced wireless groupsets and carbon wheelsets for the middle age crisis enduring dentists and such.
Planning on going ratio tech with 12 speed upgrade on my mechanical sram 1x11 cx/gravel bike mechanical disc with no FD cable routing allowed on frame. Cheaper than going apex axs with all the parts needed with same cassette either way and more range. Next bike will be electric groupset due to how the trend is going.
What I want from the new Red or any other groupset: - no derailleur hanger - mineral oil and better brakes (for SRAM) - different size / shape options for shifters / hoods - optional damping on the hoods (for gravel) - maybe a 3rd party program for hoods - smaller more sleek design (doesn't have to be lighter, but always welcome :D) - keep 12s - head unit control buttons - head unit shows battery level + warning on startup, if low
I dont ever see myself buying a bicycle with disc brakes. I definitely dont see myself buying a bike with electronic shifting. I would rather get a scooter. I wish you had better news. The dura ace 7800 was the last cold forged crankset in the dura ace line. It is a hell of alot better than bonded aluminum.
I’d love to see like the older days where we can self build cassette ratios, I don’t need a 10 or 11 tooth but would like closer ratios where I use them the most. I’d guess manufacturers chosen ratios only suit 50% of riders, the other half are left wanting but can’t do anything to improve matters
It would be great to be able to select sprockets for a cassette. I think one of the issues is that with hyperglide (and I guess the equivalent with other brands) a sprocket is not just a thing with a number of teeth is has special ramps etc to smooth the shifting from/to above and below. For example a 12t in the 2nd position needs to be different to a 12t if was used in the first position and different again is the next sprocket is a 13t, 14t or 15t
This can be done with lower-end cassettes that have individual cogs which are only held together with a single screw pin. Of course you would have to buy more than one cassette to get a variety of cog sizes.
I tried to build my ideal 2 x ratios on a graph, and it was impossible to come with something much better than the offer... mostly because of too much redundancy.
Those customisable cassettes have poor shifting compared to modern versions. The way the shift gates are designed and placed on the sprockets makes it very difficult to offer much option to swap individual pieces. On less sophisticated drivetrains you could poetically get away with it.
I Like the way it shifts, I don't like the way it can just stop working for no reason (normally water related) SRAM are very good on warranty, but when you're out of warranty the bills are large. You're right about internal headsets, but if they are also routed through an integrated bar and stem and you need to remove the olive and then have to replace the hose you're not 😉
E-shifting has saved my carpel tunnel syndrome hands from further damage. Also, when my hands are frozen at night on an ultra ride I can just slap the buttons to shift. I use sram, never had a problem. Can’t stand di2 because of batt placement & weight as well as I’ve had corrosion occur on internal wires.
Hi Paul, totally agree in lot of what you think about groupsets. As a ex road racer on mechanical & rim brakes I an a total convert to hydraulic brakes and electronic gears. Mainly as I do a lot of gravel riding for which I use Sram Rival AXS both XLPR anad 2x12. Definitely no need for 13 speed. Especially if you are a high mileage rider like myself. Final point re quality of groupset - as a long time user of mechanical Campag. It is so sad to see how they have lost the plot. Unless they change I can't see myself ever buying Campagnolo ever again.
Great to hear a pro mechanic pointing out the ergonomic inadequacy of break control mechanisms that many of us have been frustrated with for decades controls that are inadequate whilst in the drops and on top ( correction they are obviously adequate they do the job but far from pleasingly ergonomically satisfactory to feel what I mean just find a plain round bar similar to your bike handle bar and squeeze it hard but in a controlled fashion as if your life depends on it Now think how in anyway does that come close to being ergonomically like what I have to do to activate my bikes current brake system ??!! Come on bike engineering forward please you can do it we should not be stuck here forevermore
I don’t think there using electronic shifting to its full potential. I have sram on a couple of bikes, hangers are straight,and yet there’s is always one gear that’s just out of tune one way or the other. I’d actually love to see micro adjustment for each gear and finer adjustment in some cases. And tbh they could do that with a firmware update as long as the mech has enough on board memory. But uhd would help solve this problem also. The MTB runs pretty much silent by comparison.
A wishlist item for Shimano Di2 - or is it a question - maybe you can already do it and I just haven't worked it out. I would like to be able to switch off the Di2 for travelling or overnight stops so there is no risk of bike ending up resting on a brake lever and draining the battery. I know with SRAM you can remove the batteries and take to your room to charge and this is one huge positive for SRAM.
I'm with you on more gears, I'm topped out at 11 on my gravel bike. I do want mechanical to remain as an option so I can keep doing my own service. I've got Di2 on my Revolt and feel handicapped if something goes wrong. What bar do you have on that bike, looks like it flares out on the drops and also looks like you've got your levers turned in a decent amount.
i want individual gear trimming and ability to choose how many gears in app like the chinese do. if it's electronic it is programmable and there is no reason to not offer it. no more being forced to use proprietary drivetrain for perfect shifting. right to repair is done pretty well by ltwoo imo user replacable batteries is also something ltwoo does that i want others to do too. i think shifting is peaking with these features and wireless blips so the only othee thing i'd wish for would be some kind of abs. brake technology can grow, shifting not so much
It’s already possible with some chinese electronic groupsets. Honestly it doesn’t seem the western manufacturers are motivated to do something like that because they can keep selling you upgrades
The best thing (for a bike shop) is that electronic shifting makes it so much easier for manufacturers to make all that old (more that 5 years😮) kit instantly redundant. Incompatible leads, no spare batteries. Not so good for us with a N+1 collection of bikes we want to keep on the road for the foreseeable future.
@@Mapdec Your right , 7800 and 7700 are like a sculptured piece of art work , new stuff like Di2 is so cheep looking I refuse to go past 7800 even on my new carbon frames there all older tech because they look so smart ! And work as well as the new tech , if it was in shiny chrome and looked like 78 or 7700 I would have Di2 on all my bikes !
Yes, rear cassettes with individual sprockets rather, so you can easily adjust your ratios or replace 'more used' individual worn sprockets would be great. Adding more features to a rear mech, such as self trimming would be great, but more likely to only increase cost and just another thing to go wrong😮 Shifters could be moulded as a 2 shot, so you have a rubber area on the shifter body, where it transitions onto the handlebars under the hoods. If it doesn't take any longer to pull the hoses through and bleed the brakes, I take it you wouldn't charge the customers any more for that work🤔😁
Yes! At least cogs in groups of 3 -- I use the middle 3 the most, and hate to be forced to replace unused 11T cogs because some racer somewhere needs them in a bunch sprint. I could use the same 3 smallest cogs through 5 sets of middle gears. I suppose the issue is that having a mix of new and half-worn cogs might mess with shifting or encourage chain skips?
we need an open source wireless system. why cant i run X brand RD with Y brand shifter? There is no reason why not. Il buy into the first group-set that does this. until then im happy with mechanical shifting
It doesn't take any longer to service a bike with headset cable routing? How? Why? Why would you need to disconnect your hoses for an annual service ? (Unless you had headset routing).
Just a reminder that SRAM had 12 speed road group sets out for a while - Shimano persisted for 3 years quite rightly arguing that 11 speed was sufficient but bowed to market pressure from customers and when I say market pressure, I mean every Tom/Dick/Harry bike reviewer would say dumb stuff like "it would be nice to see Shimano come to the 12 speed party"...can you guess what regional distributors reported back to Shimano as a key demand from customers? I personally can't think of anyone I know ever saying "I need 12 speed". I agree that 13 speed is pointless and I suspect that Shimano's focus is now firmly on getting CUEs out there and CUEs for road launched - CUEs for road will be a game changer for Audax riders and all those people out there who don't like maintenance or bike washing - it makes no sense for them to chew through 105/Ultegra/DuraAce components...
mechanical all the way for me. My 105 mechanical 11 speed is perfect and I don't need Di2. My battery will never fall off, or lose charge, because I don't have one.
To solve the ergonomic problems, you could get bars so flared that they become flat and wide. Then you could shift gears using your thumb, and always have hold of the bars and brake at the same time. Hmm, I wonder if that would catch on. 😂
They'll do as they always do. An 8 tooth cassette cog will be next, because durability no longer matters. First price, weight, then aero, durability next.
When are we going to get automatic gear shifting, or does that already exist? I am thinking something you can customise to shift up or down automatically based on cadence. E.g. below 80 rpm and it shifts down and above 90 and it shifts up, but customisable maybe even for each individual gear to allow for individual preferences.
It’s a good question. In terms of after market upgrades I suspect the old but still widely available and very cheap Ultegra 11sp is outselling it. In terms of new bikes with it fitted as OEM, I am curious. The upgrade jump isn’t that big and not many brands are offering it because many of the new designs require stealth cable routing. For instance, Giant offer the TCR with 12sp mechanical and some poor mechanic had to route all that through the stem and headset, and the poor rider will hate the shift performance of all those constricted cables. I really hope no bike shops are recommending it as an option. We have been asked to fit it to such bikes a couple of times and have done so with a lot of hesitancy and regret.
I'd love to see the a groupset manufacturers make a kind of more refined smaller version of SRAM's "Blip Box" maybe something that can be hidden in a bar end plug (or just match box sized and not an eyesore) that allows you to put buttons anywhere this would cover so many bases. Want electronic 11,12 speed shifting but dont want to give up those 30 year old gum rubber hoods and stop you at some point in the future vintage rim brakes? No problem, Flat bar? No problem. Bullhorns? No, problem. Steering wheel form a Ford Fiesta? ....Well you get the Idea. I've seen the electronics inside a Shimano lever the PCB's (there are 2) minus everything else are tiny slightly bigger than a UK postage stamp, they could do this tomorrow. Hell someone Dontae some leavers and and I could do it today!
Campagnolo can rebuild with everything so why not shimano and sram to cost less and more importantly less waiste,,also work on the clutch so you can change gear ratios on chainring and cassette without have to buy a new chain to either shorten or lengthen
The industry realized some years ago that many cyclists are suckers for "invention". "New" or "progression" became the blurbs. If you don´t use disc brakes, you´re dead meat. OK, I´ll buy a new bike. If you don´t byt an aero bike, you´ll get dropped by your club mates. OK, I´ll buy a new bike. If you don´t use 30mm tubeless on your road bike, you´ll be knackered every outing and puncture all the time. OK, I´ll buy a new bike. OK, I´ll buy a new bike. OK, I´ll buy a new bike... Besides, Paul, LOVELY countryside you´ve got just around the corner!! Rgr
It's a re-occurring theme across many industries, take how many people upgrade phones every year for instance. It is indeed very easy to be distracted by the latest innovations and feel they are necessities. I think its fine for companies to innovate as that's how we get better and better equipment, but at the same time the buyer also has to have a good thought process and determine whether the new features are genuinely are a genuine need to take their performance to the next level, or is it more of a "nice to have". In that way, one can make the most of every purchase decision.
The manufacturer will ‘innovate’ I will use my 3*10 still its cheaper, forth same sort of range as a 1*12. by changing certain components, fabricator force you to use the latest. It is well overtime for restandarization. I agree with the polished rear mech I still run the 105. Your doing nice stuff, telling your vision around things you see The gains the manufact
headset internal cable routing is crap. Looks nice, maybe is a little less noisy, but i t messes up any kind of mechanical shifting/dropper post as soon as you turn those bars. Had a customer getting ejected of his bike by his dropper whilst riding a technical descent, because the bars pulled on the frickin cable. I'm okayish with having this s... on roadbikes with electronic shifting, be that sram or Shimano, but just leave our poor mtb alone. Overall, that guy who solved a little problem by opening up another one better doesn't meet me in the woods, or there might be a nice little tabletop the next day.
I don't think you will see the end of mechainal brakes or shifting for a long time yet, hydraulic brakes and certainly electronic shifting is too expensive for alot of people. My cx bike has mechanical brakes and the price to try and upgrade to hydraulics is way too much still imo.
I absolutely agree with you regarding the SRAM wireless blips, having fitted them on my gravel bike, they're a game changer BUT whoever designed them is not a cyclist, I mean a throw away £100 unchargable device that can make a great handlebar setup look like a 5yr old has taped them..... I mean come on!!!!
Yes buttons on the top of the handle bar should be easy to implement, but maybe not under the bar tape. The shape of the brifters might completely change, not only the shifters... We could see systems with a central electronic unit, and only one larger battery for both the mech and brakes. Electric cables are also easier to install than hydraulic hoses, motors are light enough to implement that. But they need to sell the actual products in the traditional form first. That said I like mechanical, same for cars, the inflation in complexity and lower quality control is worrying. I suppose I'm speaking like my grand parents when suddenly everything they knew came in plastic...
Misalignment detection can be done rather easy as long as its a steal cassette using a magnetic encoder it would be a bit of an effort on the software side as you'd need to code in every single cassette you would not even need a bucket load of extra components to do it and because its magnetic if done right it would work no matter what so element resistant. We done some prototyping with self aligning / auto correcting tooling for our customers for industrial grade machines for example cnc where the machine is self-where of its exact position via the encoders in the servos but rather using magnetic fields on the work bed of different polarities the idea for it was rather simple same with all the hardware needed for it but the software was a nightmare. But once we had it done and dialed in and combined it with the feedback off closed loop operations from the servos. The results where pretty nuts. Because it allowed us to detected tool ware and have the cnc auto adjust for it on the fly up to a certain threshold once over automatic tool change would accrue and the tool would be marked for replacement. Granted all of that was industrial application but we could do this 9 years ago no reason it can't be done for consumer grade products now and you wouldn't need the level of precision (5 micron) we had. Wouldn't even need to run all the time to save on battery like after start up from sleep run till one full shift up and down the cassette make adjustments if needed go back to sleep.
I'm old enough to remember when the shift from 5 speed cassettes was happening. Some complained about that. "Eddie won five on five" was the mantra. I thought it was a dumb argument. So, I feel a little hypocritical in saying that enough is enough now. 12 speeds I think is the sweet spot. Any more is just getting out of hand.
Just supposing we could see some data on what gears people use I would guess absolute max requirement for 99% of riders is 2 x 11. More likely people using 2 x 8.
I disagree with mechanical. I think xtr mechanical works way better than etap. Cable holds rear mech way better. For me biggest issue with etap is rear mech. Its so big and very exposed, battery is waterproof but during harsh winter ive seen moisture. Lachlan morton during his tour divide fkt completely cooked his derailleur. I can't imagine bikepacking with etap or di2. For road cycling maybe mechanical is dead but mtb i dont know.
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To me a bike is all about simplicity. You get on it and pedal around the world.
I like the clean look of electric shifters but i don't want to worry about batteries and pay the extra money for something i don't really want. I also like the fact that i can easily fix my mechanical derailleurs.
I completely agree with you on the durability problem though.
Using electronic shifting since 2017. 0 issues! 0! Not even adjusted it! The same bike has also rim brakes… and has imo better braking performance than grx hydraulic brakes on a centerlock xt rotor 😢. Lets face it… while electronic shifting is nice and durable, hydraulic braking on non mtbs is just sh*t. Maybe not for 60 kg lightweights…
The future of diamond nuclear waste battery's
Mechanical doesn't need further development, it's been very good for twenty years. The cheap stuff works better than the best stuff from the early '90s. I'm quite happy about. The future looks bright.
I bet they would sell a lot of the lower-end groupsets if they updated the look of them - but they won't, because they'd rather pump you 12, 13, 14 etc electronic groupsets...
I have a cheap RSX from the 90's and it shifts easier than my 105/GRX at least the chainrings, the rear derailleur is light anyway. But that may be because this 25+ years old mech is a bit loose...
Future looks heavy and expensive.
Long live mechanical... based on what I observe in group rides it functions better and more reliably than electronic, and it's cheaper and lighter (or at least was).
@@davidlewis4399 You have the power to say 'no'. That will change things for you as an individual.
My bikes are either SS or 10/11 speed mechanical. No plans to add more gears or add any batteries.
Ditto. No hydro either 🎉
@Mapdec the additional work required to change headset bearings (new hydro hoses etc) that comes with internal routing through the headset is the main reason I'm put off by that form of internal routing. In Ireland, the weather/ road conditions destroy headsets. What was a very easy job, dropping a fork out and installing new top and bottom bearing is now a couple of hours work.
Surely long-life/solid oil/lifetime warranty headset bearings are a must for internal routing of this type. I know enduro xd15 , skf mtrx etc offer the possibility of extended bearing life. Just need that bearing tech in all headsets for this type of bike
One slight problem. The fork has to be dropped out anyway for steerer tube inspection. But maybe not, maybe hardly anyone bothers inspecting it.
If headsets were sealed properly, and sealed against the steerer tube top and bottom, then it would be less of an issue. Drives me crazy when they leave the lower bearing exposed without even a gasket.
I use boat grease on my headset bearings. Quite heavy duty, but I live in SE Asia and the wet season is a bearing killer, that grease keeps them going for a couple of years.
Hello, thanks for the video. The current levers position and shape make them accessible from both the drops and the hoods and for gears and brakes. Quite good I think. I think it's a very good idea to clean all the cables. Remove the dérailleur hanger like some SRAM system. Invent a new disc caliper that won't need an absolute flat surface that no company is able to do correctly. Maybe a single point fixation somehow? Make them less fussy. Rim brakes we're so easy to fix...
Mechanical shifting requires no firmware updates and or batteries to replace whatsoever. All of our home and business wifi cameras/surveillance/etc systems became junk the day that Belkin stopped firmware support. That's what comes to mind with electronic group sets, if the manufacturer succumbs to the poor economy or product obsolescence will they continue required firmware updates?
Agreed -- it is insane to need a smart phone and a functioning website just to keep a groupset shifting...
@@ericpmoss Wow, I never thought about that aspect, thanks.
The thing I love the most about bicycling is the simplicity. Start adding electronics and along comes the stress.
And cheat to maintain
Never had issues with mechanical and I’m not a fan of hydraulic disc I only have it on my mountain bike.
On the case of AXS, so many people miss the fact that the actual shifting is its own independent ecosystem (The wireless protocol is a custom one, called Airea, based on bluetooth). This is solely to power the shifting functions. SRAM can't just "End support for it". It's not your iPhone/Andriod, the system functions independently of external software. Yes, there is Firmware updates, but your shifting will run happily without them. If SRAM just decided "Ehh let's turn it off", you dont think they'd be sued to oblivion? Yes, they may end FIRMWARE updates, but the system will still run fine without them. Look at the original Sram Red Tap (Pre AXS), that was released in 2015 and was supposed to get additional updates via a USB, but never did and it functions fine. 15000 combined KM's on my AXS stuff, will never go back to mechanical
It's ok.
I was happiest with 2x9, less rear wheel dish, affordable quality cassettes, and shifters that could be mixed and matched without having to use a particular brand of brake lever.
I think especially Shimano reached a point where the performance with the new di2 groupsets is sooo good, I would be more than happy if they only improve durability/ serviceability and lower the price in the next few years
My main issue with electronic is that, goodluck finding batteries in X number of years for a DI2 or axs setup when theyve moved onto something else
Clones will always exist. Well not always, but there are still batteries on ebay for very old devices. L-Twoo groupsets even come with just the battry holder and no batteries included, they take standard size lithium batteries. If manufacturers want to have wider adoption, they should move away from proprietary stuff
Totally agree about hydraulics, but electronic shifting only is not a good idea imo. Some times you just don´t have the option of recharging, some might ride in really cold temperatures or in very wet conditions, and how many times haven´t I heard of people just forgetting to charge their batteries? I have both electronic and mechanical group sets, and I love electronic shifting, but I really hope mechanical still will be available alongside electronic.
I like my old steel frames, lots of give in the ride. Still need rim brakes for them. Would like to see an electronic shifter rim brake combo that doesn't cost the earth and can be used with 12 speed cassettes. Thanks for your great content.
Agree, the ability to connect and disconnect hyrdo brakes with ease. Been trying to figure out how I could have two fork setups - one with suspension for heavy gravel and the other with regular forks for mostly road riding and be able to change them without stripping down the front end completely. I'd like a way to do that within 15 minutes - wishful maybe, but that's what I want.
I prefer mechanical shifting. I think electronic will go the way of phones. They'll stop supporting them or change the battery design/voltage/ampage or something minor to phase out old stock and force you into something new.
I don't use a computer on my bike. Reason is I am tired of recharging it and keeping it up to date. For me cycling is best free from electronics. Looking for a new road bike and it will be mechanical. Just change your cables after every season and you will never have them break on you mid ride.
I use 12sp converted Red22 shifters with cables. But it's because I don't like the hood shape of any hydraulic hoods. That said, hydraulic is less maintenance. No adjustment for pad wear, and rotors and pads are largely self cleaning. Bleeding brakes is also laughably easy, not really any harder than replacing cables. I do understand the battery thing though, but with Shimano, you don't have a charge very often at all and you get ample warning. Most people will be fine just charging 2-3x a year. SRAM needs more charging but even that's not even once a month for most people. I look forward to finding hydraulic hoods I like, with electronic shifting. It's nice to not have to worry about cable contamination and stretched cables affecting your shifting. I only have AXS on my 1x TT bike and have never adjusted the derailleur since I installed it and that's after over 10k miles
I’ve been riding bikes for 40 years and I’ve never broken a gear cable - ever…
They get gummy and contaminated after a while but they never break.
@workshopninjathe1st I haven't ridden that long but I do have a good 350k miles in my legs. I've broken 2 gear cables and have been on rides with plenty of people that have broken them..along with digging plenty out of customer shifters. They certainly break. You're a singular person sample of data
I agree with you on the look and feel of modern components. I went from 10spd Record to 11spd Etap to 12spd Super Record mechanical and was so disappointed when I first laid my hands on the new components. The rear derailleur looks like cheap plastic, whereas the 10spd Record was a work of art. While the operation is flawless, apart from a warranty front derailleur that snapped all by itself after I left it in the big ring overnight, I'm seriously considering selling it and replacing it with the Etap, which I still have.
Some people mention the simplicity of mechanical, but Sram wireless, for me, is as simple as it gets. It's such a pleasure to install and configure. I keep a spare charged battery in my Jersey pocket, but even that is overkill since you can always swap the batteries around in the case of an emergency. It's unlikely that both will go flat at the same time.
I can't wait for 14sp. I'm content with 12sp and would go 13 if I didn't hate how Campy feels. But I'll probably only have 2x on one of my 8 bikes when SRAM has 13sp. With 14sp, I won't have 2x on anything
true. groupsets don't give so much performance benefits compare to other components, so what should be focused on is their durability, ease of usage, compatibility etc to make them stable for people, less faff around on the bike is so much pleasant to ride and owning bikes. great video, Paul, so dedicated riding back and forth for the footages.
I have a Chinese er9 group set on my cyclo-cross bike, one feature that would really improve it would be a memory function that you could call up via the app for a 2nd set of wheels or a different number of rear gears, so you could have a 10 speed set of wheels and a 11 speed set and just call up the settings from the app.
Is 11 speed, the sweet spot for function,range and durability.for me it is?
Ergonomics and winter gloves !
concealed cable runs mandatory coupling,coupling design would rapidly improve!
Luckily to own a dura ace 7800 equipped bike , still my favourite functionally and aesthetically!
I don't think hydraulics and electronics will ever push out mechanicals unless their prices drop down to these for the mechanicals. I don't even want mechanicals to disappear because as of now, they are a lot cheaper to buy, a lot cheaper to set up, service and maintain. I recently switched to hydraulics in my gravel for the first time and I do appreciate their advantages over rim or cable disc brakes but it's a lot more hassle to work on them and a set of allen keys won't sort you out.
They’re pushing out mechanical now. On the road I don’t think SRAM does mechanical? Shimano has deleted Dura Ace and Ultegra at mechanical. I got my first hydraulic bike this week, don’t know why I waited so long.
Mechanical is more expensive at this point....... so what do you mean?
You can see the same in so many industries ... we're at, or near, peak innovation with a decades old design that manufacturers end up polishing a turd, so to speak.
What we need is Classified-esq thinking, or just leave it alone; there's only so many ways you can change gears.
For the average consumer, like me, it's great to be able to pick up an 11sp Ultegra or 810 GRX rear derailleur for 50 quid. I'm currently swapping out some worn-out bits on a Cannondale Slate, which isn't breaking the bank.
The older one gets, the more you understand marketed 'improvements' are way over hyped in order to get you to consume. I recently 'upgraded' my Smart Trainer from a Wahoo Snap to direct drive. Apart from the virtual shifting (which is kinder on your drivetrain), I can't tell the difference ... I'm so glad I didn't buy new or dump a grand on a 'top end' trainer. I'm not sure I could tell the difference!!
Amen
Yeah, stock market etc expects growth, but there isn't too much to do here. People can ride 20-30 year old bikes all the same compared to new ones.
It's not like an iphone that stops getting updates and battery dies (while phone value drops so much that battery replacement is more than the phone is worth).
So they have to invent new things and market them as essential to keep growth going. Or stop manufacture of old parts (but they have the problem of 8 speed as the lowest entry level group, those spare parts work with old parts).
Grx11 is fanstastic. Classifid makes no sense. Pike up inefficiencies and overcomplicated.
I like electronics, but I also like mechanical perfection and simplicity. I have an e-bike, but I can ride it entirely without electronics if I'd want to.
I'd like to see component development go more towards durability and longevity and am a big enthusiast of internal gearboxes for bicycles, like the Pinion for example.
One thing that would be Nice , is the ability to Exchange/Swap the handle bars , From Drops to Flat , with Hydraulic plug in hose unions for the Hydraulic brakes and as the shifters are electric wireless you can use drop levers or flat bar levers,this would not be a problem.
Gorgeous scenery and superb sky - looked like a stunning place
So many thoughts, you are in much better sync with the users/ customers than the manufakturers, hope this video will start them thinking, thank you for the amazing effort/input🤩👌🏿👍🏾👋🏾
There are dozens of reasonable priced MTB chainsets out of China that can be used on a gravel bike. 104 BCD and you can choose between 32 to 44 teeth, wide, narrow too.
As a weekend warrior, average Joe, MTB trail rider, my dream drivetrain would be a mechanical X01 10-50T 11 speed. Move the 50T cog to where the 42T cog currently is on Eagle 12 speed so the ridiculous 1st gear chainline would be improved. Then remove one of the cogs in the middle of the cassette and tweak each cog a tooth here and there to smooth out the gear spacing and use a 12 speed chain. I double, triple and quadruple tap most of my shifts on my current X01 mechanical Eagle 10-50T and since I'm not even a Strava Jockey much less a racer, I don't care about cadence and RPMs.... Call it Eagle WR (Wide Range) Trail 11 Speed and I would be in heaven.
Good points. Just because you doesn't mean you should. I have bikes with electronic group sets with hydraulics and a cable gravel bike with Paul Components Klampers cable disc brakes for bike packing so it can always be fixed in the arse end of nowhere. If you've never tried Klampers you've never realised how good cable brakes can be. 👍
I'm not excited by electronic groupsets and batteries. One more thing to keep charging. More expensive to maintain. Greater environmental impact. More needless tech in our lives. Ive never lost any sleep thinking shifting a gear was difficult on a mechanical groupset.
Plus, when you need your bike, such as for the morning commute, a stiff cable is easy to sort with a few difficult shifts on route to get it moving, a flat battery is late to work or not arriving.
Maybe when I get one I'll change my mind? But I worry about the environmental impact of needless batteries and like the beauty of a bike being totally human powered.
Batteries = landfill not green.
You get about 6 months plus out of a single charge. And to be honest, your bike is probably the least of your e-waste, your needless Amazon crap gadget probably creates more of an impact than a bike that you will use for 30/40/50k miles.
I’ve also found it’s also less maintenance. You set up electronic, it’s not going out of trim unless you crash it.
@@neilbuckley57966 months? I got at most a few weeks & 1000km before needing to recharge. God forbid needing to recharge when you're 100's of kms from home without a spare battery or charger. For me mechanical is simpler & easier to live with on a day to day basis. Pro's can use electronic shifting. There's no need for me to pay extra for it when mechanical does the exact same thing for much less $
True that. And there are no data collection, logins, apps required to set up the shifting, cookie policies...
@@neilbuckley5796 6 months? You have to ride so little it's not even worth having a bike to last that long.
Plus stripping cables that can be recycling is infinitely better than more li-ion cells that are knackered at 500 charge cycles
Dry-break couplings for hydraulics exist now. They just need some innovation and thought to be made small enough to function in fully integrated (handlebar) systems.
Tell me more...
In terms of internally routed brakes, Formula’s speed lock is a great work around as it allows you to disconnect your hose at the caliper without having to bleed them again. It would be great to see some sort of universal version of this (as well as a universal hose OD) as it would genuinely make so much sense
Recently had to replace a headset bearing on my fully integrated Orbea Orca OMX. It really wasn’t that bad of a job and if you’re just doing the lower bearing you can actually disconnect the brake, have enough cable to pull the fork out and replace the bearing. For me personally, I love internal cable routing. The looks outweigh the one or two times a year I might need to replace a cable or bearing!
Its's April 1st, This takes it to a whole new level.
Formula made a quick disconnect for brakes many years ago. They were a little bulky but they have a huge opportunity to revisit this again now the market is so big.
"Formula SpeedLock" You can still get them not sure if they are NOS as this point though. But I agree no reason these things shouldn't exist I'm surprised its not and aftermarket thing because it could be made almost universal as any olive/brab's that connector needs to terminate the hoses do not need to be the same as the ones in levers/calipers, maybe 2 different O-rings/seal types for DOT or mineral fluids but that's it.
I agree. They could just be a bit smaller for internal routes through bars etc. other than that I remember them to be very good 👍🏼 I’d imagine if the O-rings were dot and mineral specific they’d work@@chris1275cc
@@chris1275ccformula still makes speedlock for their newest cura/cura 4 brakes
agree on the transition between shifters and bar -keep looking at what i can do to fill/cover it. agree on refining/evolving details in general rather than changing for its own sake. I have two chainring sets for my rival axs groupset and it's relatively easy to swop them without removing crankset. for years i've wondered why there cannot be a detail on seatpost and stem that fixes the alignment without trying to align by eye to get it in line with frame/straight - just needs a notch or even a mark on stem and frame.
I have an injury which that transition irritates - for years what has worked has been using stacked small sections of old bar tape. Make a cut length ways from the thicker centre so cutting the tape in half then using the tapered edge to make a ramp up to plastic from the bar, I put doublesided sticky tape on the reverse then wind a layer of electrical tape to fasten on top and it stays in place... may need to stack a few layers but its possible to achieve a perfect smooth and padded transition, better than any gel pad malarkey. Makes such a difference as any pressure points can be bad for things like carpal tunnel. It seems its almost impossible for the manufacturers to get this right as there's too many possibilities for bar shape top curve - a molded in flexible rubber section would work wonders here. I felt better about having to do this after learning that some pro tours mechanics go to great lengths to make this right for their riders too...
If you are not racing, honestly I think 9s are already more than you need.
Good points - and another question - why is it that we always have to buy new derailleurs?
It‘s possible to do that from say 7 Speed up to 13 speed with the same shifters and derailleurs!
Did anyhody say EDS 🤪
FD must have different cage width to every speed, u can use 8sp chain with 12 speed front derailleur f ex.
And jokey wheels in RD are also a bit speed dependent but no so much
I think the new cheap Shimano group does that
That is what Shimano CUES is supposed to do. The drawback is that none of it is backwards compatible to the previous generations of components.
1x RDs and 2x RDs have different pulley wheel offsets; parallelograms are also different for different cassettes. Honestly other than fundamental geometric differences there’s no excuse we need to keep changing rear derailleurs every generation. Saying that I still wish it was possible to run something like a 11-40 for 12/13 speed on a 2x system.
With SRAM, I'm still using a 10sp RD on a 2x12 bike...Ratio Technology ratchet conversion. They have a ratchet that would let me run it as 13sp too(same RD) but I don't like the available cassettes just yet.
I totally agree with you to implement an USB C charging port directly to the battery. When you are on long rides or travelling it would be much easier to charge the (spare) battery 🔋 with a powerbank.
Regarding the gearing for adventurous rides or bikepacking on gravelbikes Campagnolo does the job very well - the Ekar GT is also available with a 36 T chainring. Gravelbikes are still overgeared. Personally I run a custom 26-42 chainset on my gravelbike.
I would also appreciate a more modular construction of the chain sets by those two S-Brands (separate spindle) and a product name that includes the chainline. Furthermore crank lengths in 2.5mm steps from 150mm to 180mm. A tri lobe design (similar to Look cranks) could do the job.
We don't need 13 gears in back. We didn't need 12. I disagree that cable-operated shifting and braking are dead. Both are very simple to maintain, and that's what a large number of cyclists want. All these desired innovations will make bikes more expensive, harder to maintain, and just a lot less accessible to many potential riders. Is that where we really want to go?
I agree about through-headset cable routing. If you know your own bike, know what you need to do, and know how to do it, then not only is it not a problem, it's great. I happily take it over having a cable lump under my bar tape, or cables rubbing the paint of my headtube.
Electric shifting with hydraulic brakes through-headset routed is the ultimate solution. It's way easier to set up than mechanical shifting, more reliable, and more convenient. I don't understand how people can argue that mechanical shifting is more reliable and serviceable. I mean if you face a problem in the field, you only need cable cutters, cable tension puller, spare cable farrings, possibly a spare cable, spare cable end crimps, cable crimp tool...
Your point about auto-detecting derailleur misalignment is interesting. Technically, it's not really feasible-- introducing sensors to do this would introduce too many problems. But we could make it much easier to micro-adjust. To do it now, you're off the bike and messing with an app. But what if you could press and hold both shift buttons and once to enter a calibration mode (or some other simple trigger), and then tap to micro-adjust your current gear? Tap both at once to leave the mode. Simple, quick, and you can use your ears and feet to tell when you're off a bit just as you would with mechanical.
Watching you ride the sketchy stuff in the drops and standing makes me think that a dropper post on a gravel bike would be a good thing.
Yeah. I’m tempted.
@@Mapdec Cheers! I'm beginning to see turn key gravel bikes with dropper posts.
Di2 user here with a few thoughts.
The buttons on top of Ultegra and Dura-Ace shifters need to be a lot bigger, very easy to miss with winter gloves on. And I agree that more buttons would be good.
Individual sprockets so you can make up your own cassette ratios. I use Miche on my 11 speeds so I can get exactly the cassette I want. Would be nice if Shimano did 12 speed 11-32, just change the last 2 cogs from an 11-30 to 28 and 32.
And yes I completely agree with the comfort on the shifter hoods comment. I double tape under them to improve comfort but it doesnt look good as the hoods are not designed for it.
The end of external cables routing for me is a must have, but with a simpler solution to do so. A rigid routing of hydro brake cables in the bars and steam would be a good idea ? Electronic boutons would be such a good idea ! With usb C connectors of course !!!
I have to say 1X13 works perfectly for me. I sold my Shimano DI2 and got the Ekar group set and I really prefer that. No big gaps and no problems with going really fast or really slow and I have never ever had a shift cable break on any bike, and I ride a lot and have done so for many years. There have also been some problems with SRAMs rear derailleurs on ultra distace events. So not something I'm willing to risk. I can not understand how the thumb shift lever is in the way of your hand, its behind the thumb... you must be holding the hoods in some strange way?
100% with you on aesthetics of the modern stuff. Doesn’t have to be silver, ‘cause look at what they did to silver Grx, but pretty and svelte… I have 6800 on a couple of bikes for aesthetics on a skinny old school frame.
Groupset especially the shifters/derailleurs is the perfect money trap for beginners, because that's the most obvious parts on a sports bike, and is the most obvious part for any one with any level of bike experience or fitness levels to "feel it" immediately. That becomes the perfect handle for selling bikes! It took me long enough to know that the "Drive train" or "shifters" won't make you any faster at all! And that "Dura-Ace, Ultegra, 105..." knowledge is just what the brands put in your mind. From a performance perspective, these stuff doesn't matter at all!
That's me after thousands kilometers, completely understanding power and how to use power meter, have trained seriously with power, get a lot stronger, then understand the aerodynamics, the rolling resistance, just to get a little bit faster... After all this, suddenly I just find that the shifters just doesn't matter. The tyre is the most dominant part in speed, after that is your position, your clothes, then maybe deep wheels and helmets. The pros are using the most expensive shifting systems because that's just how sponsorship works.
Pogi or Vingi would still win TdF no matter what speed of drivetrain they are using. There's no "shifter's speed" in the equation of watts/kg. If 8 speed is a little bit of a stretch in the Tour, then 10 speed will be perfectly fine! For anyone seriously interested in getting faster, instead of just playing "mechanics", I'd say stay away from those stuff and get yourself some real kit. I now just ride whatever speed that drive train comes with. 8,10,11... That just doesn't matter. When on the road I just completely forget about them, at all!
My ideal groupset would be a 2x11 or even 2x10 full mechanical Campagnolo using:
- the same sort of materials, design, lever ergonomics and very similar weights as the 2015+ Chorus/Record
- a long cage derailleur option that goes up to 34T sprockets (as the latest 12 speed Chorus does)
- a 46/30 carbon crankset option using standard 5-bolt 110/74 or 130/74 BCD chainrings (a redesigned version of the pre-2015 Campagnolo cranksets would work at a pinch)
- rim brakes with plenty of clearance for actual 28C tyres and ball bearings (basically the latest 12S Chorus calipers but with bearings as per the 2015+ Record and Super Record brake calipers)
- CNC-machined cassettes from a single block of steel (as per the EDCO design being also used by Classified with their 2x rear hubs)
All that for a total groupset weight of ~2000 g and a total cost probably around 1000-1200€ (similar to the current Chorus). And I'd also kill for a 19C or 20C rim version of the Zonda wheelset with a similar ~1550g weight and the same bombproof construction. But unfortunately Campagnolo is too busy making overpriced wireless groupsets and carbon wheelsets for the middle age crisis enduring dentists and such.
Planning on going ratio tech with 12 speed upgrade on my mechanical sram 1x11 cx/gravel bike mechanical disc with no FD cable routing allowed on frame. Cheaper than going apex axs with all the parts needed with same cassette either way and more range. Next bike will be electric groupset due to how the trend is going.
I use manual shifters. Better at maintenance.
What I want from the new Red or any other groupset:
- no derailleur hanger
- mineral oil and better brakes (for SRAM)
- different size / shape options for shifters / hoods
- optional damping on the hoods (for gravel)
- maybe a 3rd party program for hoods
- smaller more sleek design (doesn't have to be lighter, but always welcome :D)
- keep 12s
- head unit control buttons
- head unit shows battery level + warning on startup, if low
Oh. Hood damping. I like that.
I dont ever see myself buying a bicycle with disc brakes. I definitely dont see myself buying a bike with electronic shifting. I would rather get a scooter. I wish you had better news.
The dura ace 7800 was the last cold forged crankset in the dura ace line. It is a hell of alot better than bonded aluminum.
One battery, just like a car! Lights, navigation, shifting… etc. Seems like it would be lighter too.
Get a Classified hub in there and bin that dinner plate. 1x with Classified seems me to be the best overall gearing solution.
Been a bit ropey so far in terms of reliability but definitely one for the future.
Had it ditched it an went back for my dinner plate again. Love it
I’d love to see like the older days where we can self build cassette ratios, I don’t need a 10 or 11 tooth but would like closer ratios where I use them the most. I’d guess manufacturers chosen ratios only suit 50% of riders, the other half are left wanting but can’t do anything to improve matters
Yup, I am totally with you on the customisable cassettes!
It would be great to be able to select sprockets for a cassette. I think one of the issues is that with hyperglide (and I guess the equivalent with other brands) a sprocket is not just a thing with a number of teeth is has special ramps etc to smooth the shifting from/to above and below. For example a 12t in the 2nd position needs to be different to a 12t if was used in the first position and different again is the next sprocket is a 13t, 14t or 15t
This can be done with lower-end cassettes that have individual cogs which are only held together with a single screw pin. Of course you would have to buy more than one cassette to get a variety of cog sizes.
I tried to build my ideal 2 x ratios on a graph, and it was impossible to come with something much better than the offer... mostly because of too much redundancy.
Those customisable cassettes have poor shifting compared to modern versions. The way the shift gates are designed and placed on the sprockets makes it very difficult to offer much option to swap individual pieces. On less sophisticated drivetrains you could poetically get away with it.
I Like the way it shifts, I don't like the way it can just stop working for no reason (normally water related) SRAM are very good on warranty, but when you're out of warranty the bills are large.
You're right about internal headsets, but if they are also routed through an integrated bar and stem and you need to remove the olive and then have to replace the hose you're not 😉
E-shifting has saved my carpel tunnel syndrome hands from further damage. Also, when my hands are frozen at night on an ultra ride I can just slap the buttons to shift. I use sram, never had a problem. Can’t stand di2 because of batt placement & weight as well as I’ve had corrosion occur on internal wires.
Hi Paul, totally agree in lot of what you think about groupsets. As a ex road racer on mechanical & rim brakes I an a total convert to hydraulic brakes and electronic gears. Mainly as I do a lot of gravel riding for which I use Sram Rival AXS both XLPR anad 2x12. Definitely no need for 13 speed. Especially if you are a high mileage rider like myself. Final point re quality of groupset - as a long time user of mechanical Campag. It is so sad to see how they have lost the plot. Unless they change I can't see myself ever buying Campagnolo ever again.
Thanks for the input Dean
Great to hear a pro mechanic pointing out the ergonomic inadequacy of break control mechanisms that many of us have been frustrated with for decades controls that are inadequate whilst in the drops and on top ( correction they are obviously adequate they do the job but far from pleasingly ergonomically satisfactory to feel what I mean just find a plain round bar similar to your bike handle bar and squeeze it hard but in a controlled fashion as if your life depends on it Now think how in anyway does that come close to being ergonomically like what I have to do to activate my bikes current brake system ??!!
Come on bike engineering forward please you can do it we should not be stuck here forevermore
The cycling industry needs to focus on normal people... Not sport cyclists. The bicycle is the future. Make bulletproof bikes not carbon toys.
I don’t think there using electronic shifting to its full potential. I have sram on a couple of bikes, hangers are straight,and yet there’s is always one gear that’s just out of tune one way or the other. I’d actually love to see micro adjustment for each gear and finer adjustment in some cases. And tbh they could do that with a firmware update as long as the mech has enough on board memory. But uhd would help solve this problem also. The MTB runs pretty much silent by comparison.
Like a big set of calcium cannons perfectly framed in a low cut blouse, I couldn't take my eyes off that Time.
A wishlist item for Shimano Di2 - or is it a question - maybe you can already do it and I just haven't worked it out. I would like to be able to switch off the Di2 for travelling or overnight stops so there is no risk of bike ending up resting on a brake lever and draining the battery. I know with SRAM you can remove the batteries and take to your room to charge and this is one huge positive for SRAM.
I'm with you on more gears, I'm topped out at 11 on my gravel bike. I do want mechanical to remain as an option so I can keep doing my own service. I've got Di2 on my Revolt and feel handicapped if something goes wrong.
What bar do you have on that bike, looks like it flares out on the drops and also looks like you've got your levers turned in a decent amount.
i want individual gear trimming and ability to choose how many gears in app like the chinese do. if it's electronic it is programmable and there is no reason to not offer it. no more being forced to use proprietary drivetrain for perfect shifting. right to repair is done pretty well by ltwoo imo
user replacable batteries is also something ltwoo does that i want others to do too. i think shifting is peaking with these features and wireless blips so the only othee thing i'd wish for would be some kind of abs. brake technology can grow, shifting not so much
It’s already possible with some chinese electronic groupsets. Honestly it doesn’t seem the western manufacturers are motivated to do something like that because they can keep selling you upgrades
you make me miss living in kendal all them hill on your door step :)
The best thing (for a bike shop) is that electronic shifting makes it so much easier for manufacturers to make all that old (more that 5 years😮) kit instantly redundant. Incompatible leads, no spare batteries. Not so good for us with a N+1 collection of bikes we want to keep on the road for the foreseeable future.
Yes. I really hope the right to repair legislation is going to help that a lot more.
Stuck on mechanical and rim brakes... no need of charging some gadgets in a hurry
@@Mapdec Your right , 7800 and 7700 are like a sculptured piece of art work , new stuff like Di2 is so cheep looking I refuse to go past 7800 even on my new carbon frames there all older tech because they look so smart ! And work as well as the new tech , if it was in shiny chrome and looked like 78 or 7700 I would have Di2 on all my bikes !
@@krissk77 You mean you use the best stuff my son ! 7700 & 7800 stunning tech
Yes, rear cassettes with individual sprockets rather, so you can easily adjust your ratios or replace 'more used' individual worn sprockets would be great.
Adding more features to a rear mech, such as self trimming would be great, but more likely to only increase cost and just another thing to go wrong😮
Shifters could be moulded as a 2 shot, so you have a rubber area on the shifter body, where it transitions onto the handlebars under the hoods.
If it doesn't take any longer to pull the hoses through and bleed the brakes, I take it you wouldn't charge the customers any more for that work🤔😁
Yes! At least cogs in groups of 3 -- I use the middle 3 the most, and hate to be forced to replace unused 11T cogs because some racer somewhere needs them in a bunch sprint. I could use the same 3 smallest cogs through 5 sets of middle gears. I suppose the issue is that having a mix of new and half-worn cogs might mess with shifting or encourage chain skips?
The cassette will be heavier than the frame at this rate🤣
i want more ability to tweak chain line. free stroke precize setting, bleeding is not doing enough to make the lever reactive.
For sure on the free stroke. Chain line and bleeding are static. They don’t adjust anything. They are what they are, they just need to be correct.
we need an open source wireless system. why cant i run X brand RD with Y brand shifter? There is no reason why not. Il buy into the first group-set that does this. until then im happy with mechanical shifting
That would be nice. Imagine a nice Ingrid components mech with electric function.
It doesn't take any longer to service a bike with headset cable routing? How? Why? Why would you need to disconnect your hoses for an annual service ? (Unless you had headset routing).
Just a reminder that SRAM had 12 speed road group sets out for a while - Shimano persisted for 3 years quite rightly arguing that 11 speed was sufficient but bowed to market pressure from customers and when I say market pressure, I mean every Tom/Dick/Harry bike reviewer would say dumb stuff like "it would be nice to see Shimano come to the 12 speed party"...can you guess what regional distributors reported back to Shimano as a key demand from customers?
I personally can't think of anyone I know ever saying "I need 12 speed".
I agree that 13 speed is pointless and I suspect that Shimano's focus is now firmly on getting CUEs out there and CUEs for road launched - CUEs for road will be a game changer for Audax riders and all those people out there who don't like maintenance or bike washing - it makes no sense for them to chew through 105/Ultegra/DuraAce components...
I use Sugru to smooth off the hard edges of my brake/shifter bodies 👍
Oh nice. I like that.
mechanical all the way for me. My 105 mechanical 11 speed is perfect and I don't need Di2. My battery will never fall off, or lose charge, because I don't have one.
To solve the ergonomic problems, you could get bars so flared that they become flat and wide. Then you could shift gears using your thumb, and always have hold of the bars and brake at the same time.
Hmm, I wonder if that would catch on. 😂
Give it 5 more years. We will have full suspension gravel bikes with flat bars
Surely these bars would also allow me multiple grip positions, to take strain of my muscles and decrease my frontal area, right?
@@Mapdecand we could ride them in the mountains!
So you have the aerodynamics of a sail on road? Unlike you MTBers, roadies don't do crucifixion cosplay
To solve this, you could have little extensions on the end of the bars, which allow you to get a lower more forward position perhaps?😂
They'll do as they always do. An 8 tooth cassette cog will be next, because durability no longer matters. First price, weight, then aero, durability next.
When are we going to get automatic gear shifting, or does that already exist? I am thinking something you can customise to shift up or down automatically based on cadence. E.g. below 80 rpm and it shifts down and above 90 and it shifts up, but customisable maybe even for each individual gear to allow for individual preferences.
It does exist, but not at a production scale. GCN interviewed one person that made his own using a Di2 groupset.
@@yonglingng5640 Thanks for the info 👍
Yes! That would be the equivalent of an automatic transmission in a car - don’t think about which gear you are in, just focus on riding the bike
I wonder how the 12 speed mechanical 105 is selling? I suspect it is doing very well.
It’s a good question. In terms of after market upgrades I suspect the old but still widely available and very cheap Ultegra 11sp is outselling it. In terms of new bikes with it fitted as OEM, I am curious. The upgrade jump isn’t that big and not many brands are offering it because many of the new designs require stealth cable routing. For instance, Giant offer the TCR with 12sp mechanical and some poor mechanic had to route all that through the stem and headset, and the poor rider will hate the shift performance of all those constricted cables. I really hope no bike shops are recommending it as an option. We have been asked to fit it to such bikes a couple of times and have done so with a lot of hesitancy and regret.
I'd love to see the a groupset manufacturers make a kind of more refined smaller version of SRAM's "Blip Box" maybe something that can be hidden in a bar end plug (or just match box sized and not an eyesore) that allows you to put buttons anywhere this would cover so many bases. Want electronic 11,12 speed shifting but dont want to give up those 30 year old gum rubber hoods and stop you at some point in the future vintage rim brakes? No problem, Flat bar? No problem. Bullhorns? No, problem. Steering wheel form a Ford Fiesta? ....Well you get the Idea.
I've seen the electronics inside a Shimano lever the PCB's (there are 2) minus everything else are tiny slightly bigger than a UK postage stamp, they could do this tomorrow. Hell someone Dontae some leavers and and I could do it today!
Here in Ontario, we might be getting 8 inches of snow.
Time for skiing.
@Mapdec I don't ski. We've had a good winter here, though👍. Eastern Canada gets most of the snow now.
Campagnolo can rebuild with everything so why not shimano and sram to cost less and more importantly less waiste,,also work on the clutch so you can change gear ratios on chainring and cassette without have to buy a new chain to either shorten or lengthen
People used to say the same thing about electric windows and power steering as they say about electronic shifting. Embrace the change.
The industry realized some years ago that many cyclists are suckers for "invention". "New" or "progression" became the blurbs. If you don´t use disc brakes, you´re dead meat. OK, I´ll buy a new bike. If you don´t byt an aero bike, you´ll get dropped by your club mates. OK, I´ll buy a new bike. If you don´t use 30mm tubeless on your road bike, you´ll be knackered every outing and puncture all the time. OK, I´ll buy a new bike. OK, I´ll buy a new bike. OK, I´ll buy a new bike... Besides, Paul, LOVELY countryside you´ve got just around the corner!! Rgr
It's a re-occurring theme across many industries, take how many people upgrade phones every year for instance. It is indeed very easy to be distracted by the latest innovations and feel they are necessities. I think its fine for companies to innovate as that's how we get better and better equipment, but at the same time the buyer also has to have a good thought process and determine whether the new features are genuinely are a genuine need to take their performance to the next level, or is it more of a "nice to have". In that way, one can make the most of every purchase decision.
@@shaunwang2262 That´s the correct way of thoughts: Do I REALLY need this new gadget or "invention"?? Rgr
Disc brakes are better. End of.
@@matthewlewis2072 Not better, more powerful. Maintenance is a real PITA.
@@matthewlewis2072 Yes, considering the hundreds of casualties caused by rimbrakes, buy a new bicycle. The business loves you. Rgr
my indoor bike is mechanical and cheap. No plans to change that. As far as hydraulic, why are we not using electronic braking by now.
Rim brakes for the win in 2024.
Literally nothing - other than the odd hill climb, will be won by mechanical shifters in 2024 😅
The manufacturer will ‘innovate’ I will use my 3*10 still its cheaper, forth same sort of range as a 1*12. by changing certain components, fabricator force you to use the latest. It is well overtime for restandarization.
I agree with the polished rear mech I still run the 105.
Your doing nice stuff, telling your vision around things you see
The gains the manufact
headset internal cable routing is crap. Looks nice, maybe is a little less noisy, but i t messes up any kind of mechanical shifting/dropper post as soon as you turn those bars. Had a customer getting ejected of his bike by his dropper whilst riding a technical descent, because the bars pulled on the frickin cable. I'm okayish with having this s... on roadbikes with electronic shifting, be that sram or Shimano, but just leave our poor mtb alone.
Overall, that guy who solved a little problem by opening up another one better doesn't meet me in the woods, or there might be a nice little tabletop the next day.
Yeah. Scott are the worst at this.
I don't think you will see the end of mechainal brakes or shifting for a long time yet, hydraulic brakes and certainly electronic shifting is too expensive for alot of people.
My cx bike has mechanical brakes and the price to try and upgrade to hydraulics is way too much still imo.
I absolutely agree with you regarding the SRAM wireless blips, having fitted them on my gravel bike, they're a game changer BUT whoever designed them is not a cyclist, I mean a throw away £100 unchargable device that can make a great handlebar setup look like a 5yr old has taped them..... I mean come on!!!!
Yes buttons on the top of the handle bar should be easy to implement, but maybe not under the bar tape. The shape of the brifters might completely change, not only the shifters...
We could see systems with a central electronic unit, and only one larger battery for both the mech and brakes. Electric cables are also easier to install than hydraulic hoses, motors are light enough to implement that.
But they need to sell the actual products in the traditional form first.
That said I like mechanical, same for cars, the inflation in complexity and lower quality control is worrying. I suppose I'm speaking like my grand parents when suddenly everything they knew came in plastic...
Misalignment detection can be done rather easy as long as its a steal cassette using a magnetic encoder it would be a bit of an effort on the software side as you'd need to code in every single cassette you would not even need a bucket load of extra components to do it and because its magnetic if done right it would work no matter what so element resistant. We done some prototyping with self aligning / auto correcting tooling for our customers for industrial grade machines for example cnc where the machine is self-where of its exact position via the encoders in the servos but rather using magnetic fields on the work bed of different polarities the idea for it was rather simple same with all the hardware needed for it but the software was a nightmare. But once we had it done and dialed in and combined it with the feedback off closed loop operations from the servos. The results where pretty nuts. Because it allowed us to detected tool ware and have the cnc auto adjust for it on the fly up to a certain threshold once over automatic tool change would accrue and the tool would be marked for replacement. Granted all of that was industrial application but we could do this 9 years ago no reason it can't be done for consumer grade products now and you wouldn't need the level of precision (5 micron) we had. Wouldn't even need to run all the time to save on battery like after start up from sleep run till one full shift up and down the cassette make adjustments if needed go back to sleep.
I'm old enough to remember when the shift from 5 speed cassettes was happening. Some complained about that. "Eddie won five on five" was the mantra. I thought it was a dumb argument. So, I feel a little hypocritical in saying that enough is enough now. 12 speeds I think is the sweet spot. Any more is just getting out of hand.
yes, cycling has grown and the demand for more gear ratio choice has gotten confused for trying to put all that choice on one groupset.
Why not just have a flat handle bar rather than drops? Seems your main gripe is drops, be honest how often are you on them?
You are so right. Sometime gravel is utterly bonkers.
Just supposing we could see some data on what gears people use I would guess absolute max requirement for 99% of riders is 2 x 11. More likely people using 2 x 8.
Di2 all the way never had any problems with my ultegra
Loving sram rival axs 1x on my gravel bike!
Think I’ll stick to cables and mechanical in Scotland as it pisses down 330 days of the year. Electrics and water 😮s not a good combination
Yea, 12 is already one more than enough! Right?
I disagree with mechanical. I think xtr mechanical works way better than etap. Cable holds rear mech way better. For me biggest issue with etap is rear mech. Its so big and very exposed, battery is waterproof but during harsh winter ive seen moisture. Lachlan morton during his tour divide fkt completely cooked his derailleur. I can't imagine bikepacking with etap or di2. For road cycling maybe mechanical is dead but mtb i dont know.
You’re right. Electronic hasn’t really caught on in MTB in quite the same way.