I wonder if more extensive chipping happens late war when Germany was retreating and losing constantly? Might be hard to maintain your tanks when the motorpool is getting bombed by B-17s compared to modern day
When I worked for the Swedish defense industry, it happened more than once when I opened a tin of paint, that it was a slight difference from the previous one, whether it be the light green, dark green or brown.... So you always also have the possibility of the difference in production as well, plus the age of the paint used....
Great discussion. Colors can be such a tricky thing with so many variable. And I have to say you guys have been knocking it out of the park with your videos lately. Excellent content and the discussion and back and forth is terrific. Keep it up fellas!
Great topic and I too believe it was quite dark but the minute they got dusty it would lighten up the color.. Don't forget the early war tanks up to the end of the French Campagne were painted in a 2 tone camo scheme of dark Grey and Dark Brown.. Hard to see on black and white pictures but it was there. Keep up the interesting subjects and I too would love to figure out all the difference schemes used during the war..
Thoroughly enjoyed this video. With your info I will no longer worry if the grey or olive drab is totally correct. Keep up the good work.Desert colrs would be a nice topic.
Scale effect, the further away you are from a object (Smaller scale), the more the atmosphere (bluish gray)will effect the color, also I imagine that sometimes the colors were mixed, due to shortage.
Great video guys! I've been avoiding panzer grey as of late due to (sadly) different publications having different opinions about what the panzer grey tanks looked like in reality. I've been lightening panzer grey for years. I need to get over the hump and treat the grey tanks like I do the green tanks and just build them.
Oxide based paints such as the germans used are not fading away. Resistance to fading was one of the criteria for the paint. Today paints are polimer based that is why tes tend to fade.
I was a UK Army Tankie and as Randy Collins, mud and grime yes chipping no. After every exercise in the field, back at base the Tanks where washed and cleaned and given a new touch of paint where required. 1970ish you would never see streaks of rust on our vehicles. WWII then that's a different matter.
Another great discussion on a topic often discuss, colour. 3 seasonned armour modelers expressing views and techniques on interpreting panzeer grey. Great to have Sandy join on the topic. This video will inform many German armour builders that may have questions on how to paint their vehicle. Nice shirt Harvey. As always great video.
Great topic and looking forward to you doing more in relation to other colors. Very informative and great to hear the different techniques used. Fantastic
I would love to hear your opinions on WWII British colors. I’m building Tamiya’s Archer right now and would like to hear some opinions on the overall color that was used.
There is a sky reflection, try to look at mat grey painted facade panels on sunny day. There is air perspective between your eyes and a tank on 100 meters, and the air molecules diffract is in light blue. The same way the green forest Is “blue” forest seeing from far distance. The authentic paints are from 30’s, so they getting light tones after weeks on wet, sun, cold and dust abrasive effect. So, the blueish tones make the scale models looking more realistic.
In all honesty, German grey is almost a black color. Every color picture(true color) it's so dark. The biggest reason Germany changed the colors was it stood out at a distance, and in Russia it became a massive problem. And depending on where German armor was also depended on color. Most of the armor going to Stalingrad were tropical colors and that was so stark, crews actually added grey to the it down. Lol. When it comes to rust and chipping, I tend to not chip much, usually very lightly, but dirt and dust are different. In modeling, I think people go way over board on chipping. Moderation is important. Everything can get beat up. It just depends on where. For me, I use black as a base, German grey then depending on what time if year..blues for winter, reds for summer I blend in those colors into a lighter color over the German grey. I can't paint things real German grey, too dark!! Lol
You always paint tanks darker than the environment due to how reflected light works. Looks at Tropen colours like RAL8000...it is waaay darker than desert sand or grain fields are, and yet it was standard camouflage for a long time and seemed to work quite well.
Also, Tropen tanks in Stalingrad were certainly not "toned down" by crews using grey (I'm not sure how that would work since Tropen camo was applied at the factory). RAL8020 was loved by crews...vehicles were repainted from grey to this colour sometimes. RAL8020 and RAL8000 were the reason why RAL7028 Dunkelgelb was created in 1943.
@@Panzermeister36 it's true. There is a series of books on the armor units that fought at Stalingrad. And yes, the trouble scheme as bright and yes they toned it down with grey paint. There are color pictures of panzer 4s, stugs, and panzer 3 lije that.
@@Panzermeister36 that literally makes no sense. No one paints armor darker for the environment. It doesn't matter for the most part because of dust, dirt and grime. But the biggest reason German armor went away from grey was how stark it was on the steppes of Russia. Like a sore thumb. I've read that in literally every book on German armor out there.
I have the question women also be based on what type of sun are they used the put us through the sprayer cuz sometimes I heard they used lacquer Orion animal or gasoline just send down paints based on where they were cuz when they went to the camouflage I heard that how you get different shades of the green the tan and brown just throwing that out there cheers with a beer
That is a can of worms indeed! I'm afraid none of us have any informed opinions on IDF colors, but perhaps we will cover in a future build - I have several suitable subjects in my stash!
OKAY,... suggest a turn table for a 360 view (keep wanting to see more),That's a good problem. Panther in Panzer Grey🤔 I've always wanted to do one but the ney sayers! On my bucket list. End with saying great vid,thanks
Franklin thank you for that input. WE GOT ONE NOW! 😁 Stay tuned for next episode on SCC Britosh colours coming very shortly with our new model turntable!
First few Panthers were grey. There are photos of them. Panther production started some time in Jan 1943 and Dunkelgelb (german yellow) was only introduced in Feb 1943. I have photos of at least three vehicles...however they are super early Ausf.D with the early sprockets and fenders. Maybe the new Tamiya kit would work for them.
Chipping is way too overdone by some modelers IMO. Yeah, it looks cool and all but in reality the paint was put on so thick at the factory that it took quitter a bit to "chip" the paint off; unless of course we're talking about the late 80S GMC pickup trucks. Lol!
Tamiya XF-63 is a joke. When you'll have oportunity to put hand on real WW2 artifacts you'll find out that wartime RAL 7021 was very dark and rather bit greenish than blueish. Most close to real stuff is MRP paint. AK 3rd Gen is very close as well.
Right, the original RAL 7021 is very dark, but you can't paint a scale model in RAL 7021. The colour needs to be lightened, depending on the scale of the model. Tamiya XF-63 is a model paint formulated for a 1:35 scale rendition a RAL 7021 paintjob.
If you get a chance, pick up Panzers In Berlin by the panzer wrecks guys. 400 pages of armor in Berlin. The myth about the grey panther finally got crushed. Panthers were literally painted in the factory, given numbers and driven to fight. Leave it to the rigidity of the German military that they would put numbers on the tanks. Lol
Try panzer series vallejo German. C.Extra Dark Green 70.896 as a base and modulate it lighter I love it to what I've been researching I'm seeing more this as a lightened feild grey they used on the early tiger 1 interiors, great video very interesting! I like that TH-cam channel panzer pictures and panzer ARCHEOLOGY they show rare coloured footage what the grey looks alot like that on to the left of that stug in the middle there, but it could also be washed out film but it has turned a field grey green so I'm dok g a couple with that modulation just now just to test the waters but I'm happy with it with what I'm seeing and I do alot of research
Picking a colour from a colour photo is a mugs game. Even assuming it's an original print, here are some of the variables whi h will alter the colour you see: Print stock (remembering colour photo stock in the 1940's was still a developing science) Aperture setting of the camera Light at time photo was taken ie. Full sun, overcast etc Oxidation of paint surface Amount of dust covering paint surface Fading of paint Paint manufacturer Even with an original piece of "whatever"from WW2, there is fading, oxidation, oil from handling and many other factors which will effect the actual colour on a 70+ year old piece. And given every paint manufacturer has different shades of the same colour, there is no "right" paint to use. Just use whatever looks good for you and don't worry about any anal retentives who complain the the colour isn't accurate. They are simply trying to claim ownership of a subject that can't be clarified 100%.
Never rely on a color photograph to judge color. First, is that the color films of the time were horrible at reproducing accurate color. Each manufacturer's film would render the same color differently. Second is that those images change with time. Depending on storage conditions, the color layers can fade and degrade at different rates, totally changing the colors of a subject. Then take into account that most of those incorrect images you see are in a printed book. They suffer from the limitations of CMYK printing and the quality of the press and the people who run them. The color on the pages can vary widely from beginning to end of a press run. B&W images can be just as bad, if not worse, at reproducing tones. Film, exposure, processing, printing, all change tonal values. They then too suffer when screened and put on the page of a book. Once again the press operator controls what you see.
There are tons of great AFGAcolour photos from the war which are not "horrible" nor do they "reproduce colour differently". The human eye automatically adjusts what it sees to a usual standard...that is why if you're ever indoors under quite red tungsten lighting everything still seems quite like it does outdoors. It's called eye adaptation, and it occurs even if you're looking at a photograph so long as there are good reference points like the sky, for example, which is usually around when people are photographing tanks. Now photographs can have a slight colour cast and might change the hue very slightly (which is probably hwy people think panzer grey was blueish) but it won't change the tone of the image.
@@Panzermeister36 I was a commercial advertising photographer and color/B&W lab tech for 40 years. We shot everything with 8x10 to 35mm, transparency and negative. I did all our processing and printing. When we went digital, I did all the scanning and Photoshoping. All color films were horrible at accurately reproducing most colors. All color is controlled by the output device.
@@JayEvans AFGAcolour is kind of unique in how it is processed, which is why I specifically mentioned it apart from the other options of the time; it holds up very well and doesn't have high contrast like Kodachrome, for example. North American AFGAcolour is really Anscochrome so it's competely different from wartime AFGAcolour Neu.
I’m a US Army tanker. Your comments on chipping are spot on. Mud from time to time. Sure. All that extensive chipping? Never.
Good to get that confirmation from a credible source - thanks for confirming Randy!
I wonder if more extensive chipping happens late war when Germany was retreating and losing constantly? Might be hard to maintain your tanks when the motorpool is getting bombed by B-17s compared to modern day
When I worked for the Swedish defense industry, it happened more than once when I opened a tin of paint, that it was a slight difference from the previous one, whether it be the light green, dark green or brown....
So you always also have the possibility of the difference in production as well, plus the age of the paint used....
Great discussion. Colors can be such a tricky thing with so many variable. And I have to say you guys have been knocking it out of the park with your videos lately. Excellent content and the discussion and back and forth is terrific.
Keep it up fellas!
Panzer grey was RAL 7021, not sure where you got that crazy number. It's very dark and not very blue. I have original pieces here.
Adam Mann
Agree panzer grey was almost black
Great topic and I too believe it was quite dark but the minute they got dusty it would lighten up the color.. Don't forget the early war tanks up to the end of the French Campagne were painted in a 2 tone camo scheme of dark Grey and Dark Brown.. Hard to see on black and white pictures but it was there. Keep up the interesting subjects and I too would love to figure out all the difference schemes used during the war..
Thanks Richard - more color discussions are being planned.
Great subject matter on this. I have an upcoming Panzer Grey build so this is timely for me, but it translates to other single color builds as well
Thoroughly enjoyed this video. With your info I will no longer worry if the grey or olive drab is totally correct. Keep up the good work.Desert colrs would be a nice topic.
Scale effect, the further away you are from a object (Smaller scale), the more the atmosphere (bluish gray)will effect the color, also I imagine that sometimes the colors were mixed, due to shortage.
Great video guys!
I've been avoiding panzer grey as of late due to (sadly) different publications having different opinions about what the panzer grey tanks looked like in reality. I've been lightening panzer grey for years.
I need to get over the hump and treat the grey tanks like I do the green tanks and just build them.
Thanks Grant. Sometimes you just have to start with a build to get going - I have the same problem for some builds.
Oxide based paints such as the germans used are not fading away. Resistance to fading was one of the criteria for the paint. Today paints are polimer based that is why tes tend to fade.
Thank You !!! Great video and picked up some tips .Again Thank You..
I was a UK Army Tankie and as Randy Collins, mud and grime yes chipping no. After every exercise in the field, back at base the Tanks where washed and cleaned and given a new touch of paint where required. 1970ish you would never see streaks of rust on our vehicles. WWII then that's a different matter.
Another great discussion on a topic often discuss, colour.
3 seasonned armour modelers expressing views and techniques on interpreting panzeer grey. Great to have Sandy join on the topic. This video will inform many German armour builders that may have questions on how to paint their vehicle. Nice shirt Harvey.
As always great video.
Great topic and looking forward to you doing more in relation to other colors. Very informative and great to hear the different techniques used. Fantastic
Miriam Kavanagh Next one is SCC British colours followed in a few weeks with Japanese Armour Colours!
Great discussion with some useful tips. Thank you.
50 shades of panzer grau ....
That's the title we should have gone with! :)
Really great vid, please keep these up :)
I would love to hear your opinions on WWII British colors. I’m building Tamiya’s Archer right now and would like to hear some opinions on the overall color that was used.
That’s a great idea. Let us talk about it! We will see what we can do - Harvey
John Stimitz coming up next in a new GSM video very shortly!
Harvey Low looking forward to your next video!
My favourite modelling channel, now with a fellow Scot 🏴
Martin McGowan Yes Sandy is great but I dont understand the accent from him 😂!
@@harveylow6357 hahahaha, ask Sandy if it's called slice or square sausage!
There is a sky reflection, try to look at mat grey painted facade panels on sunny day. There is air perspective between your eyes and a tank on 100 meters, and the air molecules diffract is in light blue. The same way the green forest Is “blue” forest seeing from far distance. The authentic paints are from 30’s, so they getting light tones after weeks on wet, sun, cold and dust abrasive effect. So, the blueish tones make the scale models looking more realistic.
Great subject, it can be a minefield, and I agree with everything said.
In all honesty, German grey is almost a black color. Every color picture(true color) it's so dark. The biggest reason Germany changed the colors was it stood out at a distance, and in Russia it became a massive problem. And depending on where German armor was also depended on color. Most of the armor going to Stalingrad were tropical colors and that was so stark, crews actually added grey to the it down. Lol. When it comes to rust and chipping, I tend to not chip much, usually very lightly, but dirt and dust are different. In modeling, I think people go way over board on chipping. Moderation is important. Everything can get beat up. It just depends on where. For me, I use black as a base, German grey then depending on what time if year..blues for winter, reds for summer I blend in those colors into a lighter color over the German grey. I can't paint things real German grey, too dark!! Lol
I have to add this. To lighten my grey colors, I use buff or flesh, and all Tamiya.
You always paint tanks darker than the environment due to how reflected light works. Looks at Tropen colours like RAL8000...it is waaay darker than desert sand or grain fields are, and yet it was standard camouflage for a long time and seemed to work quite well.
Also, Tropen tanks in Stalingrad were certainly not "toned down" by crews using grey (I'm not sure how that would work since Tropen camo was applied at the factory). RAL8020 was loved by crews...vehicles were repainted from grey to this colour sometimes. RAL8020 and RAL8000 were the reason why RAL7028 Dunkelgelb was created in 1943.
@@Panzermeister36 it's true. There is a series of books on the armor units that fought at Stalingrad. And yes, the trouble scheme as bright and yes they toned it down with grey paint. There are color pictures of panzer 4s, stugs, and panzer 3 lije that.
@@Panzermeister36 that literally makes no sense. No one paints armor darker for the environment. It doesn't matter for the most part because of dust, dirt and grime. But the biggest reason German armor went away from grey was how stark it was on the steppes of Russia. Like a sore thumb. I've read that in literally every book on German armor out there.
Judging is totally subjective. An AMPS judge once dinged me 1/2 a point ( resulting in a silver medal) stating the vehicle wasn’t “weathered” enough.
Nice video!!
The same goes for roofs. The sun will fade the colors over time.
I have the question women also be based on what type of sun are they used the put us through the sprayer cuz sometimes I heard they used lacquer Orion animal or gasoline just send down paints based on where they were cuz when they went to the camouflage I heard that how you get different shades of the green the tan and brown just throwing that out there cheers with a beer
Great video!
Here's a can of worms to dig in to. How about IDF Sinai Grey '82 There seems to be more opinions on that colour than there is modellers out there...
That is a can of worms indeed! I'm afraid none of us have any informed opinions on IDF colors, but perhaps we will cover in a future build - I have several suitable subjects in my stash!
OKAY,... suggest a turn table for a 360 view (keep wanting to see more),That's a good problem. Panther in Panzer Grey🤔 I've always wanted to do one but the ney sayers! On my bucket list. End with saying great vid,thanks
Franklin thank you for that input. WE GOT ONE NOW! 😁 Stay tuned for next episode on SCC Britosh colours coming very shortly with our new model turntable!
First few Panthers were grey. There are photos of them. Panther production started some time in Jan 1943 and Dunkelgelb (german yellow) was only introduced in Feb 1943. I have photos of at least three vehicles...however they are super early Ausf.D with the early sprockets and fenders. Maybe the new Tamiya kit would work for them.
Chipping is way too overdone by some modelers IMO. Yeah, it looks cool and all but in reality the paint was put on so thick at the factory that it took quitter a bit to "chip" the paint off; unless of course we're talking about the late 80S GMC pickup trucks. Lol!
mayor Bloomberg thanks for the tips
No problem!
Tamiya XF-63 is a joke. When you'll have oportunity to put hand on real WW2 artifacts you'll find out that wartime RAL 7021 was very dark and rather bit greenish than blueish. Most close to real stuff is MRP paint. AK 3rd Gen is very close as well.
Right, the original RAL 7021 is very dark, but you can't paint a scale model in RAL 7021. The colour needs to be lightened, depending on the scale of the model. Tamiya XF-63 is a model paint formulated for a 1:35 scale rendition a RAL 7021 paintjob.
If you get a chance, pick up Panzers In Berlin by the panzer wrecks guys. 400 pages of armor in Berlin. The myth about the grey panther finally got crushed. Panthers were literally painted in the factory, given numbers and driven to fight. Leave it to the rigidity of the German military that they would put numbers on the tanks. Lol
Hi Will - I have it and love it!! Tons of modelling inspiration!
Try panzer series vallejo German. C.Extra Dark Green 70.896 as a base and modulate it lighter I love it to what I've been researching I'm seeing more this as a lightened feild grey they used on the early tiger 1 interiors, great video very interesting! I like that TH-cam channel panzer pictures and panzer ARCHEOLOGY they show rare coloured footage what the grey looks alot like that on to the left of that stug in the middle there, but it could also be washed out film but it has turned a field grey green so I'm dok g a couple with that modulation just now just to test the waters but I'm happy with it with what I'm seeing and I do alot of research
Picking a colour from a colour photo is a mugs game. Even assuming it's an original print, here are some of the variables whi h will alter the colour you see:
Print stock (remembering colour photo stock in the 1940's was still a developing science)
Aperture setting of the camera
Light at time photo was taken ie. Full sun, overcast etc
Oxidation of paint surface
Amount of dust covering paint surface
Fading of paint
Paint manufacturer
Even with an original piece of "whatever"from WW2, there is fading, oxidation, oil from handling and many other factors which will effect the actual colour on a 70+ year old piece.
And given every paint manufacturer has different shades of the same colour, there is no "right" paint to use. Just use whatever looks good for you and don't worry about any anal retentives who complain the the colour isn't accurate. They are simply trying to claim ownership of a subject that can't be clarified 100%.
What's the point of a scale-accurate model kit if your just going to paint whatever color you feel like?
@@Hedgehobbit exactly. That's kind of what makes something a replica and not a toy.
на мой взгляд, только на PZ38 цвет похож. Остальные модели слишком светлые.
Pz38 здесь все еще в черном учебнике, но согласитесь, что настоящий Panzer Grey был очень темным.
Nice discussion gents very interesting. It came at the right time as im just about the HobbyBoss 1/35 Pzkpfw I Ausf C
you came at right time? too much info Greg :)
Hahahahahahaahahhahahaha
So you decided to change the color to what you like rather than what color they were painted?
I was thinking the same thing. The most accurate tank is the one on the left with the black primer.
Never rely on a color photograph to judge color. First, is that the color films of the time were horrible at reproducing accurate color. Each manufacturer's film would render the same color differently.
Second is that those images change with time. Depending on storage conditions, the color layers can fade and degrade at different rates, totally changing the colors of a subject.
Then take into account that most of those incorrect images you see are in a printed book. They suffer from the limitations of CMYK printing and the quality of the press and the people who run them. The color on the pages can vary widely from beginning to end of a press run.
B&W images can be just as bad, if not worse, at reproducing tones. Film, exposure, processing, printing, all change tonal values. They then too suffer when screened and put on the page of a book. Once again the press operator controls what you see.
Very good point thank you for that reminder.
There are tons of great AFGAcolour photos from the war which are not "horrible" nor do they "reproduce colour differently".
The human eye automatically adjusts what it sees to a usual standard...that is why if you're ever indoors under quite red tungsten lighting everything still seems quite like it does outdoors. It's called eye adaptation, and it occurs even if you're looking at a photograph so long as there are good reference points like the sky, for example, which is usually around when people are photographing tanks.
Now photographs can have a slight colour cast and might change the hue very slightly (which is probably hwy people think panzer grey was blueish) but it won't change the tone of the image.
@@Panzermeister36 I was a commercial advertising photographer and color/B&W lab tech for 40 years. We shot everything with 8x10 to 35mm, transparency and negative. I did all our processing and printing. When we went digital, I did all the scanning and Photoshoping. All color films were horrible at accurately reproducing most colors.
All color is controlled by the output device.
@@JayEvans Then don't bring them into photoshop...
@@JayEvans AFGAcolour is kind of unique in how it is processed, which is why I specifically mentioned it apart from the other options of the time; it holds up very well and doesn't have high contrast like Kodachrome, for example. North American AFGAcolour is really Anscochrome so it's competely different from wartime AFGAcolour Neu.
When people stick to complete realism in painting the kits tend to be very boring as compared to taking a little artistic license.