THE BIG LS CAM MATRIX-HOW MUCH POWER EVERY LS CAM WILL MAKE BASED ON DURATION. 190-230+ DEGREES.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
- JUNKYARD LS CAM POWER. HOW MUCH HP WILL MY LS CAM MAKE? DO I NEED A CUSTOM CAM? HOW MUCH POWER CAN A SHELF CAM MAKE? WHAT IS THE BEST CAM FOR MY LS? HOW DO I KNOW HOW MUCH HP MY CAM WILL MAKE? IS THERE ANY WAY TO KNOW WHAT MY CAM WILL DO? HOW TO MAKE LS POWER. HOW BIG SHOULD I GO? IF YOU HAVE A CAM THAT I HAVE NOT TESTED AND WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH POWER IT WILL LIKELY MAKE, CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO. IN THIS CAMSHAFT MATRIX, I HAVE CAMS BROKEN DOWN INTO 5 DIFFERENT DURATION RANGES, FROM 190-200, 200-210, 210-22, 220-230 AND 230+ DEGREES. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH YOUR CAM WILL MAKE, PLUG IT INTO THE RIGHT GROUP AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.
This is a great tool to help decide what wrong cam to buy 😂
How so?
It's simple. forget the cam card data. The stage of the cam is what matters. Stage 1 slow. Stage 5 fast.
More compression always helps especially when you go with more duration.
Whats a good safe compression for street? 11.1.1?
@@BowtieClusters you're missing a colon for the compression ratio.
@@BowtieClusters Safe comp. ratio for the street, depends on octane, quality/consistency, of said octane, cranking comp., initial, and total timing, heat range of spark plug's, load on the engine= ( wt. of vehicle, rear gear, tire ht.) esp. @ low RPM, tight or loose tq. converter, etc. This is why this ? is almost impossible to answer. I have heard of a 9.0 to 1 comp. ratio engine, (ping = pre ignite = spark knock), on 93 octane. It had a very low duration cam, 4,000Lb vehicle, too much initial timing, 2.56 gears, 28 in tall tire's, stock/tight, low rpm tq. converter. Then i have heard of an engine with 14.0 to 1 comp. run on the same 93 octane, with very low initial timing, in a 2,800 Lb. Wt. w/driver vehicle, a very loose, and high stall speed of 6,000 RPM tq. converter, 4.88 gear's, and 26 inch tire's!
Dang near 450 horsepower from a cam change. LS heads are the bee's knees!
yup! intake closing point balanced to compression is critical.
What a great comparison on the cams and durations Richard! Surprising to see how well the Truck Norris provides mid range torque with minimum lost at low end!
Agreed !! That Truck Norris cam is impressive !!
I just went from a stock 4.8 to a 6.0 with 243 heads and a truck Norris cam. They say it doesn't need a converter, but a stock one at 16-1800 is way too small. I think I could burn the tires easier with the 4.8.
You may want to Consider the Texas Speed Chopacabra as well
@@aslacker my 4.8 stock burns the tires then again it is the LR4 and not the LY2/L20
Thats because it had the tightest libe separation.
Once again, more great data. Thanks Richard!
Replace the cast pistons. Then the factory rods go, then replace those with 4340 steel, then the rod bolts can fail if not stretched correctly. Then the nose of the crank can break off. And finally the block cracks in the valley.
Are you referring to the Ford banana split?
Great video! Good information to generalize cam power!
I was told for years that comp cams, cams are the best.
E85
The single greatest thing to be done to engines since boost.
E85 has really allowed racers to run high boost, equalling great hp and tork numbers on the street that few of us ever could do.
Unless nobody sells it in there area. A lot of gas stations are getting rid of it.
The problem with pump E85 is inconsistent fuel blending. This has caused many engine problems. It's great when it's right, it's catastrophic, when it's not! Pump E85 is like playing russian roulette with your engine!
I don't think I have ever used anything less than 230deg at 50..never built a 5.3 either though for 5.7,6.0 and 6.2 engines I tend to work with 232-238 duration, lobe sep of 108 to 114 depending on the flavor required..always around 600 lift...2-4 deg advanced mostly.
Priceless info. Thanks Richard
Be cool to see a compression ratio test.
Love your videos rich. I was going to suggest a video of your opinion on the best N/A LS marine setup but I guess that would be sorta the same as a truck setup? As much as you can out of the hole sorta deal. Anyways, just thought I'd kick that idea your way. I know there is a huge marine industry and being from British Columbia or just from an area with alot of rivers, there is a TON of guys putting LS setups in they're boats. Keep making the awesome vids, it has helped me design the setup I want for my 6L.
Gonna be an iron block ls2 when I'm done
Personal Observations:
Previous LSA Cam Test Video I Thought Overlap Shifted The Power Humps Left And Right On The RPM Axis. Richard Said It Was Duration.
Watched This Video And Confirmed That Intake Duration Is What Shifts The Power On The RPM Axis. Not As Much As I Thought But It Indeed Does.
I Had A 230 Cam In My 3800. It Starts Making Peak Power At 6,000 RPM And Holds It Out Till 6,800 RPM. Im Not Even Using This Cam As Intended As I Don't Shift The Car Past 5,800 RPM.
Spec'ed A New 210 Cam That's Going To Be Custom Ground At Comp Cams. I'm Hoping It Puts The Power A Little Lower In The Range That I Shift / Power Band Or My Gearing.
It's A 210/212. LSA Is 7° Tighter Than Previous Camshaft And Overlap Is 2° Less Than Previous Cam. It's Also Advanced 2° Than The Previous Cam. Lastly I'm Installing The L26 Long Runner As I Was Running The ZZP Short Runner Insert Before.
After 2 Months Of Researching Cams, Watching Richards Videos And David Vizards I Think I've Got The Cam In the Right Direction For My Application.
Wow.. So the ss2 in a L33 made 439hp & 414tq.. And the SDPC LS6 Power Max Plus cam in a LM7 with TBSS intake made 448hp & 433tq! The SDPC cam is a 220/222 cam. I ran the LS6 for over a decade in my WS6. Many 7k+ rpm shifts. The SDPC LS6 cam for its specs, most def feels and sounds bigger. Its on a 112+2 LSA. Lift is just .570 and the power kicks in much quicker. Wish there were more ls1 and 6L dyno numbers and track times to compare mine too. Funny, cuz I bought the Elgin e1840p ss2 cam. Went with the SDPC cam cuz was 'smaller' and thought be better dd beater cam.. Guess I still picked the right cam 😊
Seems like you are comparing two different cams on two different dynos on two different days on two different combos and trying to convince yourself you picked a good cam! Sound logic
@@richardholdener1727 no. I'm definitely happy with my sdpc cam. Wish you would test some of them and compare to the popular shelf cams such as truck norris and ss2 in a 5.7 or test all the elgin/tfs cams from ss1-3
You can get 650 hp n.a. on a 350 sbc with race heads and a good 300 degree roller cam. On 94 octane gas at 11.1
The truck norris seems to be one of the best
Need to change colors on your graph charts when you do different cams instead of the same colors so it will be easier to read
That last summit 230+ degree duration cam lost nothing down low over stock according to the graphs! It matched stock and made a ton more up top.
Now days to wake up a n.a. motor you need 12.5 to 14.5 compression and good heads. On e85 of course.
When it comes to n.a. engines. Bigger cubes are better. When you go s.b. then consider boost.
What keeps an engine together. Hi quality parts, piston, rods, crank, block
And they usually fail in that order from too hi an rpm.
Hey rich I think your tests are awsome. Usually., I'm on your side guy.
Bloodviking
Richard, there is a test I would love to see you perform on an LS engine. A lot of guys take a junkyard 5.3, dingleball the cylinders, and put the original pistons back in. On the other hand I see where machinists maintain they are overlooking the problem of cylinder taper on high mileage engines. How about doing a test on a .005 overbore machinist built 5.3 and a junkyard rebuild and see if there is any appreciable difference in power?
there isn't
Right on
On an engine with small cubic inch , boost will really wake it up.
AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME!!!
Hot rod cam is a lot smaller at 217°; to keep up with the 228° SS2 is impressive
He might be talking about the "Red Hot" cam from BTR at 221*. The 5.3 Hot Rod and LS3 stage 1 v2 from BTR I think are the same thing at 217*. All the newer BTR stuff seems to be really good.
THE DYNO RESULTS WERE THE HOT ROD CAM-SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN A DIFFERENT DURATION GROUP
In general most small cubic inch engines certainly have there limits. Once you push the rpms past what the factory head can support, then what's the point. I feel anything more then 6 to 7k rpm would be pushing it.
Wow great information!
Ok now you need to tell us what converters to use with those cams
Richard, can you do this with the Ford 351W and its strokers?
The foxbody guys are coming around to the 351s after spending the least 5 years boosting the 302 based engines. Myself included.
I'd love to see the (let's call them) stage 1-5 type cams and what they do to the rpm band and HP/TQ curves.
Anywhere from 218-248 degrees or more...
I'd love to see some stage 3-4 cams with varying lifts compared
If there is a camshaft matrix, I will take the red pill.
You can have a tighter lsa for more power but watch the lsa. Too much or too little bit can hurt a combo.
Heavy trucks cars could use 114 lsa and moderate duration of 276 for small cubic inch engines and 286 on bigger motors.
4 to 500 hp we easily made with a 350 to 400 sbc back 8n the mid 80s. Non supercharged small c I engines suck on power.
Thanks for this ! would also be nice to know how these cams affect MPG. Esp trucks
I started to reply and then noticed how many details about the combo were required to really detail why it gets the mileage it gets. There's kind of no point unless you define your whole combo. The cam is just a piece of it.
Richard could supply the brake specific fuel consumption across the rpm band and that would help predict mileage, however, cruise mileage is a different thing from WOT power.
Some factory cams aren't the worst but certainly not as good as a non factory roller cam at around 286 dur.
Bv
I don't understand why the ls cast pistons hold up so well. Nor do I understand why the powered rods do. They don't hold up in a 4.6 ford. If I was asked to make a great ls. Id say Ditch everything except for the block.
Bv
“I know Kung-Fu!” - Neo, ‘The Matrix’ (1999)
Alot of engines make loads of power at high rpms but are looser cams down low. Cams with limited power bands. Aka drag race cams really suck for street use. Even with steep gears.
Well that’s just like your opinion, man.
Have you done videos on how displacement affects cam choices?
Look at the cost of a 3400 4l80e tc vs a turbo 400.
LS6 cam has 204 intake duration
Yes, the LS2, LS3, LS6 are extremely close to each other. Are they there own Matrix? lol!
@@gtbmjb7192 I believe the 2001 LS6 cam and the LS2 Corvette cam are the exact same csm
Lots of cams can't be used because the stock engine compression is too low
Lmao
WOW .
N.a. at 500 hp would be good
You should do this with the gen 3 hemi Richard. I would like to know what the power gain for a 5.7 with a 6.4 cam.
He doesnt like dodge. He did one video like 3 years ago, and ive asked him a few times to do more, but never did.
Hey guys figure in a hi stall converter with a bigger cam
Can you do a video on GPI’s SS4 no fly cut cam
Holding the throttle down for too long breaks all engines.
Small c I d engines n.a. suck. Cam, heads, compression is about all you can do.
This makes me wonder about a test where you could have 2 cams with the same advertised duration and lift lsa etc, but one would have the most mild lobe profile, while the other cam would have a super aggressive lobe, and see how the power changes and how stable the valves are. Would be interesting!!!
Btr has a video on this
@@KE458S had no idea, I will check it out, thanks!
Engine masters did a recent episode showing 3 cams, all hydraulic rollers, all the same specs, but 3 different lobe profiles.
You cant have a cam have the same duration and lsa and sound different. Overlap is overlap. However, to different companies can have two differnet power outputs because of ramp rate or advertised duration being different
@@jameswhitesell3076 yes. You can have 2 cams with the same @.050 duration, but have advertised duration different due to those ramp rates. Showing those differences in a direct test would be interesting and probably news to a lot of people for sure
I have a LS2 Corvette and I wanted to do heads/cam but basically I bought the toys I wanted, quit my career and moved up to BFE to live the good life. Because of this I probly won't have 30 grand to buy another one in the future so I want the car to last 200,000+ miles. I was advised by Cordes here in Phoenix that in that situation I probably shouldn't put a cam in it. So my question is, what can I get out of a head like those Trickflow 225s on the STOCK camshaft? All your tests use some type of cam upgrade. Can you test how much power a head swap will get with the stock cam? I do have a FAST 102 and headers already.
head swap is worth 10-15 hp with stock cam
@@richardholdener1727 That's it? Like a 243/799 head to a TF 225 head that flows 50-60 cfm more is only worth 10 hp?
@@Carguylogan they make easy lobe cam tech.... upgraded cams with more duration but Easy on valve train and lifters that will last long time
@@Ws6Ms I was looking at that. Like the Cam Motion stage 3 LS2 can which is 218/224 duration with .550 lift and 116 LSA. With that LSA it'll probly get great mileage but won't chop or at least not much. That cam with a 114 LSA would be better I'd say. More torque and a little chop. Could probably use a very mild valve spring to be easy on lifters, maybe even stock spring? Max rpm is 6600 on this motor, I'm not trying to spin it too high.
I tested a set of ported rec-port heads on a stock cammed ls3 and that's all it was-might be a touch more on the cath port-but not much-at least get a Truck Norris cam
Where are all the hemi 5.7 camshaft comparisons?????
I Have a rSloppy Mechanics Stage 2 228/230, 585 "/.585" 112 LSA ,Which reconfiguration should I choose in Terminator X camshaft config ?
Oh you're using the handheld to tune it? Rough. Select whatever is one level below the "race" setting for now. I'd highly recommend downloading the Termi X sw and getting yourself a holley interface cable though so you can tune it properly. Your fuel trims are going to be very large.
what was idle vacuum in the later stages?
Not much
What's that? Haha
Richard could you do a 3.6l vs 3.6l? Such as Chevy Camaro vs Dodge Challenger 3.6ls? There are blowers and parts available for both just thought it'd be something different 🤷♂️
The Pentastar has 'weak' cam followers. I've r&r'd many. Not sure how smart it would be adding a power adder to a Pentastar with around 100k miles without replacing the cam followers (rocker arms for ohc engines). I've done some intake and plenum porting for friends and with typical cai, exhaust bolt-ons and tuned... They've been pleased. Knowing the only next best thing would be a hemi swap.
@charliecadaver666 I've worked on hundreds since it debuted in 2012. I've heard both, it's poor rockers, then it's not poor rockers, it's poor surface hardening of the low-lift lobe portion of the intake camshaft, typically the passenger side. Similar to stock LS cams and some of the 5.7 HEMI cams wiping out lobes. Regardless, the 2016 change to VVL was when it all started happening, and 99% solely on the intake side. It hasn't changed yet either... The most recent one I've done was last week on a 2021 GC. But, for some reason, people still love the engine and mod the hell out of it. I am NOT looking forward to the hurricane, though! 😐
How bout a stroker cam shoot out for a LS2 403 with LS3 head's and cam
Ls3 intake as well 😂
lots of 416 and 408 cam videos up
@@richardholdener1727
Looking for big boy stoker cam results.... lots listed from cam motion.... BTR.... Tick performance
Appreciate ur time explaining this subject. Can you help me im new in this things i got an l92 for a project in my crown Victoria. I want to get to 440 hp at least from cam which one u recomend with least chop ? I prefer sounds a little bit more than stock
a stock l92 with a mild btr truck norris will make more than that
@@richardholdener1727 ok could u chose one for me i hope it's a silent cam
I did suggest a cam-the BTR Truck Norris
@@richardholdener1727 sorry my bad . But i dont want the chop sound is is there any better with close to ls9 sound
What do you think about the TSP B.F.D. "Chop Monster" ?
use the specs and plug it in
How does displacement play into cam choice? I have a 6.0 with a sloppy stage 3 , because ALL THE CHOP 238/242
I personally feel about 10° more dur. @ .050, per 50 cu. in. of engine disp., and about 2° tighter Lsa, is comparable for the intended RPM range. For my example: (Let's use 9 to 1 comp for all engine's), 1st a 305 5.0 Liter, with 228 @ .050, .570 lift, @ 114 Lsa installed 4° adv, and proper intake, and exh.= RPM range of (3500 to 6500), vs your 366 6.0 Liter, 240 @ .050( i averaged your dur. specs. to single pattern for this example), .600 Lift, @ 112 Lsa installed 4° adv, with proper intake, and exh.= RPM range of (3500 to 6500) 3rd example: A 9 to 1 comp., 427 7.0 Liter, 252 @ .050, .630 lift, @ 110 Lsa installed 4° adv.= (3500 to 6500). If ALL cams were installed straight up, it would move the RPM range up 200 to 300, so (3,700-3,800 to 6,700-6,800), and if ALL cams were installed 4° retarded from straight up, it would move the RPM range up another 200 to 300, so (3,900- 4,100 to 6,900-7,100)
@@evilinside5984 that’s some great insight and makes a lot of sense! Thanks for the well thought out reply
This like the crazy hot matrix from how i met your mother?
Summit stage 4 didn’t lose anything down low compared to stock torque? Or did you roll in later?
How do I know If I will need a higher RPM stall converter?
Im planning on swapping a 6.0LS witha Truck Nortis and 4l80e into my K30 that weighs 6000# and has 37" tires and 4.56 gears.
you don't with that combo
Bloodviking
When are you going to start doing the chrysler 2.2l stuff
Not popular
Does rich read my challenges of builds to do and tests.
who do you think did (and continues to do) all this testing? KH
Powdered
@ richard holdner , someone on Facebook asked if the eBay SS2 off shore cam was close in power to the name brand cams (he had one in his truck and said worked good) have you ever tested one ?
I would be more worried about the cam breaking
@@richardholdener1727 😂😂😂 true I have seen some of those cams where the lobes were not fully machined 😂 (not LS though)
Do you have any info on the effects of to much total timing on a Sbc? We tried the old trick of advancing the timing until it pings, then backed it off. The timing light read 50* of total advance by 3000rpm. Thanks in advance
no SBC I have ever run wanted 50 degrees of timing-way too much
@@richardholdener1727 Is that more than likely the cause of my slow times?
@@cheapskatenation Your cam was installed way too many ° retarded, or your dist., is off a tooth? Does your engine back fire? If not, look into your cam being 8 to 10° retarded. Hope this help's you out?
@@evilinside5984 Cam was installed dot to dot. Engine runs good at 36* total timing. It was just bumped up to try and make a little more power. Never heard it ping, Mph had stayed about the same but I started launching harder.
@@cheapskatenation What is your 60 ft. time, 1/8th E.t. and MPH, also 1/4 E.t. and MPH if you have it?
Most engines won't exceed 1 to 1.25 hp per cid. N a
Which one is a boost cam?
Some people say that every cam is a boost cam, but I don't.
All of them
Any cam even stock whatever horsepower you make naturally aspirated will get magnified under boost no matter what cam you use?
So, if 200º = 383 hp and 234º = 476 hp, can we say that, mathematically, each degree of camshaft intake duration for a 5.3 = 2.7 hp, all things being equal?
No. There are to many variables unfortunatly. Both intake and exhaust durations, lift, lsa, all go into power output, keeping all thing similar on the motor
This comparison is boring. Compare LSA 106 vs 113. If more overlap and shorter duration doesn't work, tell us. Also give us vacuum readings.
Not sure why you'd run that tight of a lobe separation with a small displacement ls. Could understand 106 LCA on a 23 degree na pump gas 383 sbc or something like a 14:1 421 23° sbc.
Would think it would like something in the neighborhood of 111, perhaps 109 for a "383" lm7 unless you were turning up the cr/boost.
But yeah a LCA test would be cool for a given displacement, head style, cr and operating range. Pricey test and likely out of the scope for the average viewer.
SEE THE LSA CAM TEST VIDEO
I hope people stop using that stupid duration at 50 th b.s.
It accurately compares one manufacturer to another.
Personally I blame squirrels 🐿️🐿️🐿️🐿️
I have wished for 40 years that people, including Rich, would just give the cams full duration instead of a 50 th inch. It's a better way to make people not have to add.
Bloodviking
Because usually advertised duration is not accurate and that number varies between manufacturers. The @50 number is an accurate way to measure duration
@@mikeday8826could give 2 standard durations, like at .50 and .006. That way you could calculate the ramp of a cam to see if it would benifit you