"Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD". That's a very important lesson to learn, not only for mixing but for life itself. Thank you David, as always here following and supporting your work. Hugs from Spain!
The more I’ve had to turn out professional mixes quickly, the less I’ve found myself using any M/S processing. Just like you said in this: I’ll use it on non essential ear candy, big wide risers and space filling atmospherics. Basically any ornaments specifically tailored to having fun with stereo image. But all the essential stuff I need translating in mono, don’t use it
I typically use is sparingly. Mainly to carve room for bass out of mids in melodic elements if needed. The sound starts sounding weird if I use to much. I’m still learning though, no idea if it’s correct or if there are other ways to do it besides multiband compression.
You are a lifesaver! When you broke down the term "mid/side" into it's proper name, "sum/difference" - it immediately became clear. I almost ruined my mix trying to "mid-side" it to death, and it was actually fine! You saved me from overthinking it! THANK YOU!
By definition, the more the sides are emphasized the less you'll have in the middle. And the middle is where all the energy is. Never use m-s without considering this trade off first.
For me, mid-side was sometimes used for orchestras or Live TV broadcasts or recordings to capture the sound of the hall or room. We would later decode the M/S mics. When I first started seeing M/S plugins I said cool, no more flipping phase to decode. I started experimenting with some of the Brainworx processors that I have and it was exactly what you’re talking about, especially on my 2-Bus or a lead vocal. EQ or compression yield the same results. Thanks for another great video. You’re a great educator and mix engineer. I really love your channel and I’ve gotten plenty of great tips from you. Sometimes I watch a video just because you’re talking about something that I’ve been saying and doing for years and you’re the only voice of sanity. Other times I’ll watch because it’s something that I’m you remind me of, like breaking habits, like using the same go to techniques all the time. A lot of my habits are from growing up in facilities that only had 1 or 2 of whatever processors they had. Thanks again for your great work! The shirt is a good idea lol. Button downs are definitely optional. ✌️❤️ - Tim
I like Span by Voxengo. It does a great job showing the frequency range causing phase issues. Also, it's free... Reducing width or the frequency range causing the phase issue from the side or difference eliminates the problem. Thanks for all the great tutorials. Much appreciated. 👍
Thanks man! Yes I almost always eq based on notes, not much for the high range but mid and below, almost always. Weiss EQ1 freq selections are on precise notes (not many know this) and many eq have the little keyboard available, definitely something I do all the time
the best use for me is to add defintion for the spaces the instruments need, take out lows on the sides if there isnt anything low being panned/stereo enhanced, fix phase alignment of the mix on effects like haas and delays as well, if i want to increase the stereo image i just go back to the mix and do it with pan pots or enhancers.
Like you said in an earlier video on Mathew Lane's DrMS, a little goes a really long way. Very down-to-earth and pragmatic, as always. A video on why LCR mixing and hard panning yields better results would also be awesome. I think that's something few people really have a grasp on, because they have some preconceived notions that hard-panning is bad. Also, that shirt looks classy as heck!
I hard pan fairly often but I don't think you can say LCR mixing provides better results like it's a fact. There's a lot of context to go with it and if you think LCR is better in most or all cases you should watch Dan Worrall's videos on the subject
Hard panning yields better results? You better be joking. I don't know much about the LCR technique but panning has very little to do with achieving depth and movement in a mix. And using hard panning in a mix will make it sound like shit when you listen to it on headphones or convert to mono.
@@AlexNiedt Show me one of those "classic records" and let's me hear it. And I'm not talking about 1 sound hard panned on one side but there are other sounds on the other side. If that's the case let's not waste our time ok.
I have been at this game on a professional level since 1976. Yours are some of the most valuable videos for new and even more advanced mixers and mastering guys. Good work.
First off, I am new to mixing and mastering (started doing this April of 2020) and I was searching on youtube and google and all I saw was mid-side processing (how important it is to cut sides to keep lows mono) and it made since to me. Glad I saw this viideo which made me consider phase. Thank you!
Thanks for the technical explanation. Sum, difference makes a lot more sense than mid, side. If I understand correctly then, the R signal is always inverted when the "Side" signal is created. I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the problems that can create, and I'm thinking that the L and R signals should be treated differently from each other but I don't know how. L doesn't seem to be a problem, just R. Do you have a video addressing the specific issues?
I thought I knew and I did (the theory).. but simply explained in this clear way I now REALLY understands the implications of M/S processing better. Thanks! very helpful!
Man you just open my eyes. I was doing exactly what you explained and now I see why some of my mixes came out the exact way you said. Thanks bro!!! since I've been watching your content my mixes and masters has been coming out way better.
Mid-Side confused me a lot because of how people tossed it out and I couldn't figure out how/why/what for a while... Until I watched Dan Worrall talking about it. Then it all made sense why you would use it, and how, and why you wouldn't want to be using it all the time. It seems to be a scalpel, NOT a swiss-army knife. It is very specific to a certain thing and using it all the time would just be crazy. I've used it to improve mono compatibility on guitar tracks in dense mixes, I know people who have used it to push a wider sounding guitar through the sides before. But nobody who I've ever seen using it properly recommends it our-right. It serves a purpose, and should only be used with purpose, which is what you are saying here. There's a lot of change in how people consume audio and that is leading to people changing how they handle it on the mix end (binaural versus stereo for example)... but that's why it's even more important now to not take numbers and EQ curves and charts and apply them to your mix. You need to understand the why behind the how in order to make better mix decisions.
Good advice, mate. Personnaly when I use MS it's an EQ on a particular instrument/stem in my composition. Usualy double bass, some low synths or big low batlle drums/taïkos, just to "recenter" some low end. Never on a whole mix. Furthermore I should say that widening a whole mix is a mistake: Width exists only because you hear something in the midlle or on the close right or left, you need contrasts, you need to appreciate distances, locations. (like loudness, if everything is loud everywhere in the bandwidth nothing is loud)
It was the Abbey Road Mastering Chain I bought from Waves that introduced me to Mid-Side processing in the first place. I'll review this presentation to get some better idea about when it might be OK to use.
When i discovered mid-side processing i used to listen to my favourite songs and Switch between mono and Stereo. Learned some Tricks of it (like you said, the ear candy thing for example). But the Main thing i learned was: keep the mono mix tight, then in Stereo it will sound incredible. Not the other way around.
Thanks David, useful video. I do use M/S in mastering EDM, mostly hardware EQ and compression where am mindful to keep differences in processing between mid and side small to minimise artefacts. Recently used it to push mid of a track that lacked body, and that worked well. Your channel is great man, cheers.
Great again David, it’s a confusing subject. Would be awesome to have practical examples, demos, to hear and see what the sideffects of M/S are (what to listen for), where it works and where it doesn’t. The wesaudio gear all have the option, I never used it coz I don’t understand
Very clear information, no-nonsense, to the point. Thanks for this! I have Black Box HG2MS and once it was on my master bus and I had all sorts of artefacts I did not understand. So I deleted the instance. Now I use it only on single tracks and am more careful when and how to use it.
i find that mid side is indispensable for synths , i tried it with the stereo-shaper plugin of fl studio and it does a "black magic effect" to synths , strings , ambiance and rap background vocal !
It's true that a signal hard-panned to one side may seem to have only side components without mid. A signal with only side and no mid is actually a signal where the left and right signals are phase-inverted.
Excellent video. Thank you for not being afraid to display equations. Sum (M=L+R) and Diff (S=L-R) are close to epiphanies, my friend. Thanks to you, I see more clearly how math and physics translate to music on the production-side. Please, always keep the equations! ❤🔥
Great video, David! Love your channel :-)! I use M/S technique during recording acoustic guitar for example with two mics, one is a cardioid, second in figure of eight. That gives you a really nice, wide effect, without loosing the mid. Especially, when the acoustic guitar is the only instrument. Other than that, I found the M/S can help to get the middle more focused also, or widen/boost certain frequencies in the high end. A lot of possibilities out there. And I mainly use it on mastering in the analog path, before hitting a converter. But as always, a little can go a long way! Cheers 🍻
Great video, David! Love all your videos. You talk about training your ears to listen for the M/S phasing artifacts but you don’t talk about how to do that or what to listen for - I’d love to see a video about that. Also, as far as stereo widening - I’d love to see you nerd out a bit and talk about the different flavors of stereo widening and what the pros and cons are. Like Waves Center, SPL Vitalizer, BX Stereo knob, blending in a parallel chorus/pitch plugin, a hardware elliptical filter, M/S EQ, etc. I’m sure there are a million different options but maybe explaining which of these fall into certain categories and how they can be beneficial or detrimental? Thanks David!
How to is material for private lessons and members, only so much I can give away for free. A video on the various wideners is doable, altho' I use analog for that
The shirt's dope. Been watching you five years, and never thought anything bad about your shirts, but this one is probably in the top 5 coolest shirts you've worn hahaha Seriously though, your channel is great.
@@mixbustv Thank you! If I ever get out of debt, first thing I do is spend six weeks talking my wife into letting me spend any money and thus enroll in your mixing classes. I just write songs and want to record them, but not being able to mix them after is clearly a bad thing. Any progress I've made on that front is thanks to you. Got kind of sidetracked because a month and a half after getting most of my recording gear in 2018, our youngest son, Adrian, was diagnosed with a very rare, seldom survivable, and ultimately fatal brain tumor we fought for 13 months. That kind of dampened my recording enthusiasm and eliminated my time. Then, as you can imagine, I wasn't feeling very "funky" after losing him (This is just an expression: I've never been funky). Our family is just starting to feel functional again, so I'm finally ready to get back on track with the music stuff, and knowing your channel is here to help is a great feeling. I started watching your channel the week I got my DAW, back when it was Studio One 3, not 5.5, so you've been in this with me in your way since I started it back up again. What I'm trying to say is: no, man, thank *you*.
This video was packed with so much damn good info, especially that mid side overlap part. Never knew that. Always thought they would be truly separated. Speaking of EQs and what not, I had a question come to mind the other day and would like your input on it. If there’s a scenario, for example, where I want to make a piano’s highs be more present, which would you prefer? 1) EQ the piano to bring out the highs 2) Use a multiband saturator like Ozone exciter, FF Saturn or Wavesfactory Spectre and you saturate the highs Assuming you can make them both sound very similar or practically the same, wouldn’t the saturation option always be better due to the added harmonic content and potential to translate better to smaller speakers, no? Or it doesn’t matter that much! Side note: Yes, make those videos talking about and debunking those IG videos. It’ll be entertaining, fun and knowledgeable because we’ll learn WHY not to do certain thing. That “why” is important when it comes to understanding anything in life, and it helps people break from dogmatic approaches…..sick shirt too btw! 🔥 Thank you for your videos!
I have used the Ozone exciter on some mono mixes and they have translated fairly well. I may be completely off the mark here, but I find small speakers tend to be fine reproducing high frequencies. I still tend to use something like the tools mentioned in question 2 for highs just because I like the result. I get a little sparkle or sizzle without adding EQ. It doesn't always make it on to the mix, but I almost always try it.
@@threeforcegaming1769 I appreciate your response. You know, you might not be off the mark by mentioning speakers being able to reproduce highs pretty well, regardless. I was working on a mix that had a piano and that’s when examples 1 & 2 came to mind. I guess I’ll stick with 2 and, most importantly, that it sounds good to the ears 🙏🏽
I've used a little mid side in mixes, but not much, basically because it sounded, 'odd', when I used it with EQ. But, I got some reasonbale results if I wound it back. In truth, that just shows up my lack of sophisticated ears. I watch this channel, to get better, but sometimes, I feel I'm still in the botton class, when I see the depths you go into on many topics. I guess I'll get better by osmosis, so keep em coming
Thank you very much for this video. You answer for my question...:) I aware to use mid-side processing in mixing. I always have a mess in mixes after this.
Another useful recall to critic listening, thanks. I had to get into the mid-side processing when I tried to treat L and R through linked outboard compressors. Even if linked and knobs-aligned, there's no way to make them work exactly the same way. In L-R you can hear them because they move the sound direction. But if you work on a stereo bus splitting in M-S these little differences become more negligible and you virtually have one big stereo compressor. This is not M-S processing, maybe... L-R cheating?
First, usually you want a stereo compressor to work on your two bus, that's exactly why bus compressors are all stereo as opposed two mono. Second, if you switch to MS because you can't match LR stereo you're still compressing MS and not stereo which changes dramatically. But if you got nothing else, it's fairly easy to match LR with two mono, run sine waves, the run a digital meter after, you can get 1/10th if a decibel which is better than some stereo compressors.
How I do it: Put ozone eq as my last plugin on master and check mid and side info of the reference then I check my mix and try to get as close as I can, reverb tails, delays, what sounds in the middle what on sides and when I solo side info it should be balanced and clean and nice. So I play only sides of my mix and if something jumps out I find that sound or reverb send or delay and do some cuts only on side signal of that sound until I get it right for my ears. It's more like some tonal balance. I don't know it's right or wrong, I think it works)
I've found only one nice sounding m/s eq plugin and still I use it gently - it's a Bettermaker 232D. It sounds great on groups or stereo effects (if needed) and I use m/s mode as an creative effect, not a problem-fixer.
I watched your 2 videos on cutting the low ends sides and this one. Cool, but not imagery enough for me. lol. I would have liked to hear the effect (on transients or phasing) of this mid-side treatment and therefore its bad effect on an instrument to understand more precisely which frequencies are not good at separating. Well as a beginner, I tried to cut the low ends sides with Fab Filter and even with a brickwall it doesn't work. (I opened a second fab filter EQ afterwards and to tell the truth there is a small drop in dB but not enough to cut the low ends). So if there is anyone who manages to do this BS: congratulations to them! Lol!😄
So I'm moving towards not ever using the mid side processing because I don't understand it anyway but I have put it in just to see what it sounds like and I never liked it of course I'm green as hell lol getting my source material ready for the re release. Thanks big Dave. I don't know how to use it anyway lol
Refreshing to see someone explaining what MS really is, it's a terribly misleading name. I've tried MS so many times and almost never stuck with it for a final mix. if for some reason I desperately need something to sound w i d e I'll buss a couple of sacrificial tracks, say a pair of secondary guitar parts, and widen that leaving everything else playing naturally with the centre line; but mostly I think music (I work basically in rock) just sounds better when it's allowed to be what it is and not treated like some sort of intricate aural jigsaw puzzle. 🤘
I added some m/s on a new dnb track and I'm about to remove it on a few elements when I get home from work. It took away from the life and richness on a couple sounds.
Music is not JUST an art. And surely mixing is at least 50% science. Unless you're making music only you're gonna hear, if it only sounds good to you then no, it doesn't.
Dropping this blurb before the video drops. Trying a new technique on everything, including elements you wouldn't think to use it on, is a good way to really learn what that certain technique or process does constructively or destructively. Some people think this is also how you should mix, and it emphasizes the destructive part hahahahha. I do dense symphonic death metal with my own band and mid-side can help keep room for vocals with F6 on the orchestral bus. Or I'll use Center to cut all the mid out of an element that's primarily ambient and just filling space so it doesn't fill, like, the wrong space, or if I've got some big war drums or low concert toms and bass drums going, I might refocus the low end back towards the middle so it's not throwing the stereo feeling off balance (since I keep my samples panned after I print them so it still feels like everyone's seated like in a real orchestra). That's about it that I've found works for me. I don't really understand the mid-side craze so I'm excited to see what this video has to say.
Thank you for the feedback, watching this video will most definitely give you a different perspective and make you more careful on the techniques you already use
@@mixbustv Follow-up: YES. This is great. I love the equation section. The explanation on the the guitar/vocal relationship is exactly why I never use mid-side stuff on 2-bus. For clarification, I was referring that I sidechain my vocals to specific, smaller bands F6 in mid-mode on my orchestral bus since the vocal is far more important (which I already keep my orchestral percussion separate, so the transient issue isn't as big of a problem as it could be). And my example with Center is EXTREMELY specific and I never use it on very forward elements. Great video, and it gives actual analysis to why I already use mid-side extremely sparingly and, like you said, makes me even more careful. Great video, as always, thank you so much!
M/S came up out of old Radio Station Times. The only reason was to keep broadcasting flexible. So in order to have a signal you can broadcast as far as possible, the mono signal is used and as the signal quality was better the side signal was additionally added by the radio receiver. According to this more and more studio productions tried to follow the M/S Approach. To be honest, I see only a technical, historical reason, M/S was never invented to improve sound quality, so I would say as we are not really more relying on it, we could just forget about it LOL
David, M/S compression creates similar problems. For example compressing MID channel also compresses SIDE ect. But what about using Weiss DS1 MK3 while mastering and applying M/S, for example compressing or/and expanding side image only. I've seen you using Weiss this way many times. Thank you. Ps. Can you also make a video explaining M/S encoding and how it works and affects the signal? Thank you for the answer
@@mixbustv yes. But in the article you presented it says: "If something exists in the far left channel, like an electric guitar, it will exist in the M and the S when put into a Mid/Side matrix. So when you apply Mid/Side compression to something like an entire stereo mix, the same element will receive different compression treatments, and you’ll wind up with a singular sound being pulled and pushed in different directions by two different compressors". Just I was wondering as I've seen you using Weiss in M/S many times while mastering. Thank you
But that's not necessarily a problem. Think how many times we use multiple compressors on the same element, wether is a mix or a vocal or anything else. The point is simple and it goes for anything like this: be aware of the science behind a process and know what to look/listen for (potential drawbacks) and then simply use your ears once you KNOW what could happen. (as opposed to the "there are no rules bro, just use your ears" crowd)
In the past mid side wasn't a thing, it got created as a tool for certain needs, so we should use it only for those, and then, when possible, as a creative tool, but not more than that I think
Thanks for the video, A quick question, my mix is muddy at the low end. I saw tutorials that suggested high pass EQ on the sides. I did it, and I have the impression that the mix looses widerness and depth. Yes it cuts some muddiness, but the end result is more flat and shallow. How can I make more space in my mix, to remove this
David let me know if i heard you wrong but i dont think mid side is sum difference, the way i think i heard you say it - mono stereo is sum difference. The mid is not mono, it still has non summed information thats slightly (but not 100%) out of phase, or within 60 degrees center. Its only when you mono that you truly "sum" the signal, with most of the mids remaining and the sides completely canceling. Sides just mean signal thats 100% out of phase, while stereo is anything that thats out of phase (mids included). Mid side is not the same as mono stereo...
I hate M/S EQing. I can never get anything sounding right with it. It just over-complicates things. But hey , I'm not a pro. So anyone who can use it and get good results....Hats off to you.
In true mid-side recording you use a figure 8 pattern mic for the sides and a separate cardioid mic for the mono mid channel… and that way the sides can be perfectly phase inverted and the mono channel is a different character as its a different placement and type of microphone …. So as you say, using the same input for both sides and mid inside a daw is actually not compliant with mid-side recording, as the mid needs to be a different capture source for it to work in the final stereo mix as otherwise the final stereo mix will have phase cancellation between the side and mid from using the same source for all 3 channels, and not a totally different capture source for the mid, as this technique was designed for. Am i understanding this correct?
Yes and no. MS recording is different than MS encoding/decoding for processing as this can be done from a stereo track, recording, etc.. Because of that, it's the nature of this particular type of processing - MS eq in particular - to have some drawbacks, not perfect separation etc.. Hence the video.
Thanks for another great video. I totally agree that M/S on regular EQ messes with the transients ect but switching to Linear Phase solves that problem in both mixing and mastering. I use M/S while mastering quite often (same in mixing with dealing with stereo tracks to for example create pocket for vocals) but first use LP mode and only make subtle changes like 0.1 to 0.5 db max and mostly do it in higher frequencies where pre-ringing is hardly present. What is your opnion about that? Thank you
Sorry but it doesn't. What I described in this video happens because of the encoding, not because of the type of eq. Linear phase eq won't solve it, it will add instead, pre-ringing. Sure you won't have the phase shift and when you would use MS regardless, sometimes can sound better then regular eq, but just as sometimes LP can sound better than regular eq when NOT using MS, make sense? The two only related (just like everything else in audio) but LP won't solve this. Now in your case, if you do adjustments within 0.5db I would lean towards using regular eq instead because the potential artifacts with such small changes are minimal to insignificant (probably) and an LP would maybe add additional smearing, just because of the nature of the processing, for no reason.
@@mixbustv I've experienced smearing of transients from LP mid/side processing in a mastering session. Is pre-ringing what is causing that smearing? I can't hear any audible pre-ringing but I notice as I cut rumble from the sides (sub 50Hz) the kick and snare lost attack. Is this caused by the pre-ringing? Would make sense intuitively as pre-ringing is sound ahead of the initial attack, no?
So, should we boost the sides on the high end to widen? Sounds like we shouldn't. So then what, don't worry about widening the mix? Is this technique more suitable to individual instrument tracks or perhaps group bus?
Generally speaking yes, I (and many others) prefer to take care of my width in mixing, so on the single elements, but I've never said don't use MS eq or wideners. What I'm saying is be aware that our brain is tricked, just like the top boost, when you first apply such process because that's just how our brain works and that first impression often make you overlook other artifacts that it might cause. So knowing what to listen for and experience will then tell you how and when everything is appropriated.
I always love and use MS processing plugins or at least the ones that have this feature :) But I use themn very carefully and always ( without exception ) check in Mono in each step. I just love to have the control under my hand LOL.
Essentially everything I do is stereo based on the styles of music I work with, with the occasional mono mix for some live sounding jazz stuff. I can honestly say that mid-side is less than 10% of my workflow.
I noticed mid side processing while listening to a mix on headphones compared to using monitors. The Mid (bassline) sounds like it sticks out more while listening to on headphones, but then on stereo speakers the mid part (bassline) appears to be "hidden" in the mix.
One of the biggest differences between monitoring on HP vs monitors is the stereo field, usually pretty screwed up in HP because of both the isolation and the close distance between your ear drums and the drivers
🔥 YOU GOTTA WATCH THIS! ➡️ th-cam.com/video/YuRVDyGL0VY/w-d-xo.html 🔥
🔥Join the Channel to Access All The Premium Courses:
bit.ly/2SNX8bx + Mix Consultations
🔥Bella Kelly's Single/Video Throat: bit.ly/3dxeJOf
"Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD". That's a very important lesson to learn, not only for mixing but for life itself. Thank you David, as always here following and supporting your work. Hugs from Spain!
Thanks brother! Big hug to you
The more I’ve had to turn out professional mixes quickly, the less I’ve found myself using any M/S processing. Just like you said in this: I’ll use it on non essential ear candy, big wide risers and space filling atmospherics. Basically any ornaments specifically tailored to having fun with stereo image. But all the essential stuff I need translating in mono, don’t use it
I typically use is sparingly. Mainly to carve room for bass out of mids in melodic elements if needed. The sound starts sounding weird if I use to much. I’m still learning though, no idea if it’s correct or if there are other ways to do it besides multiband compression.
You are a lifesaver! When you broke down the term "mid/side" into it's proper name, "sum/difference" - it immediately became clear. I almost ruined my mix trying to "mid-side" it to death, and it was actually fine! You saved me from overthinking it! THANK YOU!
You're a blessing, David
There are so many potholes on the road to stellar mix. Thanks for sharing your knowledge without bs.ing around!
By definition, the more the sides are emphasized the less you'll have in the middle. And the middle is where all the energy is. Never use m-s without considering this trade off first.
For me, mid-side was sometimes used for orchestras or Live TV broadcasts or recordings to capture the sound of the hall or room. We would later decode the M/S mics. When I first started seeing M/S plugins I said cool, no more flipping phase to decode. I started experimenting with some of the Brainworx processors that I have and it was exactly what you’re talking about, especially on my 2-Bus or a lead vocal. EQ or compression yield the same results.
Thanks for another great video. You’re a great educator and mix engineer. I really love your channel and I’ve gotten plenty of great tips from you. Sometimes I watch a video just because you’re talking about something that I’ve been saying and doing for years and you’re the only voice of sanity. Other times I’ll watch because it’s something that I’m you remind me of, like breaking habits, like using the same go to techniques all the time. A lot of my habits are from growing up in facilities that only had 1 or 2 of whatever processors they had.
Thanks again for your great work! The shirt is a good idea lol. Button downs are definitely optional.
✌️❤️ - Tim
I like Span by Voxengo. It does a great job showing the frequency range causing phase issues. Also, it's free... Reducing width or the frequency range causing the phase issue from the side or difference eliminates the problem. Thanks for all the great tutorials. Much appreciated. 👍
Nice shirt! Can’t wait for the next Mixbustv purge 😅
No bull and straight to the point as usual. Great video. Shirt looks good. : )
Thanks David, your videos are a treasure trove and much appreciated
this man knows too much 🤯 can you talk about using EQ on frequencies specific to the key of the song?
Thanks man! Yes I almost always eq based on notes, not much for the high range but mid and below, almost always. Weiss EQ1 freq selections are on precise notes (not many know this) and many eq have the little keyboard available, definitely something I do all the time
man the information you put on here saves us a lot of time and money i really appreciate brother 🙏
Just a hobbyist here so FWIW... I'm amazed at how often 'the right way' comes down to pretty much 'Everything in moderation'
the best use for me is to add defintion for the spaces the instruments need, take out lows on the sides if there isnt anything low being panned/stereo enhanced, fix phase alignment of the mix on effects like haas and delays as well, if i want to increase the stereo image i just go back to the mix and do it with pan pots or enhancers.
Yes, I knew and have been on about this or years, often getting flak just for stating how mid-side works. Thanks for sharing this.
Like you said in an earlier video on Mathew Lane's DrMS, a little goes a really long way. Very down-to-earth and pragmatic, as always. A video on why LCR mixing and hard panning yields better results would also be awesome. I think that's something few people really have a grasp on, because they have some preconceived notions that hard-panning is bad. Also, that shirt looks classy as heck!
I hard pan fairly often but I don't think you can say LCR mixing provides better results like it's a fact. There's a lot of context to go with it and if you think LCR is better in most or all cases you should watch Dan Worrall's videos on the subject
Hard panning yields better results? You better be joking. I don't know much about the LCR
technique but panning has very little to do with achieving depth and movement in a mix.
And using hard panning in a mix will make it sound like shit when you listen to it on headphones or convert to mono.
@@asd2640 Completely context dependent, and hundreds of classic records would disagree with the idea that hard-panning in a mix can't translate.
@@AlexNiedt Show me one of those "classic records" and let's me hear it.
And I'm not talking about 1 sound hard panned on one side but there are other sounds on the other side. If that's the case let's not waste our time ok.
@@asd2640 You're aware of how many chart-topping songs have been mixed LCR over the last handful of decades, right?
I have been at this game on a professional level since 1976. Yours are some of the most valuable videos for new and even more advanced mixers and mastering guys. Good work.
Thank you!
This channel is a godsent. Greetings from the Czech Republic :-)
First off, I am new to mixing and mastering (started doing this April of 2020) and I was searching on youtube and google and all I saw was mid-side processing (how important it is to cut sides to keep lows mono) and it made since to me. Glad I saw this viideo which made me consider phase. Thank you!
Do not cut the effing lowd from your sides.. wait for the next video or watch one of the many videos in which I explain why not
@@mixbustv will do. Thanks again!
Your videos always help
Thanks for the technical explanation. Sum, difference makes a lot more sense than mid, side. If I understand correctly then, the R signal is always inverted when the "Side" signal is created. I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the problems that can create, and I'm thinking that the L and R signals should be treated differently from each other but I don't know how. L doesn't seem to be a problem, just R. Do you have a video addressing the specific issues?
I thought I knew and I did (the theory).. but simply explained in this clear way I now REALLY understands the implications of M/S processing better. Thanks! very helpful!
Yes!! Thank you David, can't wait
Man you just open my eyes. I was doing exactly what you explained and now I see why some of my mixes came out the exact way you said. Thanks bro!!! since I've been watching your content my mixes and masters has been coming out way better.
Great advice as always David! nice shirt too, a tip to learn this is to M/S commercial tracks and listen to how they are processed...
Mid-Side confused me a lot because of how people tossed it out and I couldn't figure out how/why/what for a while... Until I watched Dan Worrall talking about it. Then it all made sense why you would use it, and how, and why you wouldn't want to be using it all the time. It seems to be a scalpel, NOT a swiss-army knife. It is very specific to a certain thing and using it all the time would just be crazy. I've used it to improve mono compatibility on guitar tracks in dense mixes, I know people who have used it to push a wider sounding guitar through the sides before. But nobody who I've ever seen using it properly recommends it our-right. It serves a purpose, and should only be used with purpose, which is what you are saying here. There's a lot of change in how people consume audio and that is leading to people changing how they handle it on the mix end (binaural versus stereo for example)... but that's why it's even more important now to not take numbers and EQ curves and charts and apply them to your mix. You need to understand the why behind the how in order to make better mix decisions.
experience matters in all audio production and I agree only use it when you need it..
Good advice, mate.
Personnaly when I use MS it's an EQ on a particular instrument/stem in my composition. Usualy double bass, some low synths or big low batlle drums/taïkos, just to "recenter" some low end.
Never on a whole mix.
Furthermore I should say that widening a whole mix is a mistake: Width exists only because you hear something in the midlle or on the close right or left, you need contrasts, you need to appreciate distances, locations.
(like loudness, if everything is loud everywhere in the bandwidth nothing is loud)
It was the Abbey Road Mastering Chain I bought from Waves that introduced me to Mid-Side processing in the first place. I'll review this presentation to get some better idea about when it might be OK to use.
When i discovered mid-side processing i used to listen to my favourite songs and Switch between mono and Stereo. Learned some Tricks of it (like you said, the ear candy thing for example). But the Main thing i learned was: keep the mono mix tight, then in Stereo it will sound incredible. Not the other way around.
exactly, same applies with mixing in lower volumes, when the mix retains clarity in a low volume, when you raise it back it will sound incredible.
wow best video of 2022 that answers our question why MS does not sound good sometimes
Thanks David, useful video. I do use M/S in mastering EDM, mostly hardware EQ and compression where am mindful to keep differences in processing between mid and side small to minimise artefacts. Recently used it to push mid of a track that lacked body, and that worked well. Your channel is great man, cheers.
Nice shirt, violet or purplish colors will look good with the illumination of the studio.
Thanks master.
Excellent considerations...thanks for the heads up amigo!
I see you at the gym all the time , I’ve been watching your videos for some time now !
Come say hi!
Great again David, it’s a confusing subject. Would be awesome to have practical examples, demos, to hear and see what the sideffects of M/S are (what to listen for), where it works and where it doesn’t. The wesaudio gear all have the option, I never used it coz I don’t understand
Very clear information, no-nonsense, to the point. Thanks for this! I have Black Box HG2MS and once it was on my master bus and I had all sorts of artefacts I did not understand. So I deleted the instance. Now I use it only on single tracks and am more careful when and how to use it.
i find that mid side is indispensable for synths , i tried it with the stereo-shaper plugin of fl studio and it does a "black magic effect" to synths , strings , ambiance and rap background vocal !
It's true that a signal hard-panned to one side may seem to have only side components without mid. A signal with only side and no mid is actually a signal where the left and right signals are phase-inverted.
If it's stereo
Excellent video.
Thank you for not being afraid to display equations.
Sum (M=L+R) and Diff (S=L-R) are close to epiphanies, my friend.
Thanks to you, I see more clearly how math and physics translate to music on the production-side.
Please, always keep the equations!
❤🔥
Shirt looks good David, #GucciGang
Great video, David! Love your channel :-)!
I use M/S technique during recording acoustic guitar for example with two mics, one is a cardioid, second in figure of eight. That gives you a really nice, wide effect, without loosing the mid. Especially, when the acoustic guitar is the only instrument.
Other than that, I found the M/S can help to get the middle more focused also, or widen/boost certain frequencies in the high end. A lot of possibilities out there. And I mainly use it on mastering in the analog path, before hitting a converter. But as always, a little can go a long way!
Cheers 🍻
Really useful information! Lots of future accidents prevented....
Waitinggggg!!!
Great video, David! Love all your videos. You talk about training your ears to listen for the M/S phasing artifacts but you don’t talk about how to do that or what to listen for - I’d love to see a video about that.
Also, as far as stereo widening - I’d love to see you nerd out a bit and talk about the different flavors of stereo widening and what the pros and cons are. Like Waves Center, SPL Vitalizer, BX Stereo knob, blending in a parallel chorus/pitch plugin, a hardware elliptical filter, M/S EQ, etc. I’m sure there are a million different options but maybe explaining which of these fall into certain categories and how they can be beneficial or detrimental? Thanks David!
How to is material for private lessons and members, only so much I can give away for free. A video on the various wideners is doable, altho' I use analog for that
@@mixbustv I can respect that! Your videos are fantastic and well explained!
Great video!!! Explained very well...and is something that I was always confused about...but didn't have the confidence to call out myself!!!
Eye opening-- thanks! Great video-- decent shirt
🤔 Interesting I did not know this, cheers for pointing it out & explaining why 🙏
The shirt's dope. Been watching you five years, and never thought anything bad about your shirts, but this one is probably in the top 5 coolest shirts you've worn hahaha
Seriously though, your channel is great.
:D thank you
@@mixbustv Thank you! If I ever get out of debt, first thing I do is spend six weeks talking my wife into letting me spend any money and thus enroll in your mixing classes. I just write songs and want to record them, but not being able to mix them after is clearly a bad thing. Any progress I've made on that front is thanks to you.
Got kind of sidetracked because a month and a half after getting most of my recording gear in 2018, our youngest son, Adrian, was diagnosed with a very rare, seldom survivable, and ultimately fatal brain tumor we fought for 13 months. That kind of dampened my recording enthusiasm and eliminated my time. Then, as you can imagine, I wasn't feeling very "funky" after losing him (This is just an expression: I've never been funky). Our family is just starting to feel functional again, so I'm finally ready to get back on track with the music stuff, and knowing your channel is here to help is a great feeling. I started watching your channel the week I got my DAW, back when it was Studio One 3, not 5.5, so you've been in this with me in your way since I started it back up again.
What I'm trying to say is: no, man, thank *you*.
i would love a part 2 with examples
Thank you, very informative, caution required with mid size processing. Understood!
Thank you for the class!
This video was packed with so much damn good info, especially that mid side overlap part. Never knew that. Always thought they would be truly separated.
Speaking of EQs and what not, I had a question come to mind the other day and would like your input on it.
If there’s a scenario, for example, where I want to make a piano’s highs be more present, which would you prefer?
1) EQ the piano to bring out the highs
2) Use a multiband saturator like Ozone exciter, FF Saturn or Wavesfactory Spectre and you saturate the highs
Assuming you can make them both sound very similar or practically the same, wouldn’t the saturation option always be better due to the added harmonic content and potential to translate better to smaller speakers, no? Or it doesn’t matter that much!
Side note: Yes, make those videos talking about and debunking those IG videos. It’ll be entertaining, fun and knowledgeable because we’ll learn WHY not to do certain thing. That “why” is important when it comes to understanding anything in life, and it helps people break from dogmatic approaches…..sick shirt too btw! 🔥
Thank you for your videos!
I have used the Ozone exciter on some mono mixes and they have translated fairly well. I may be completely off the mark here, but I find small speakers tend to be fine reproducing high frequencies. I still tend to use something like the tools mentioned in question 2 for highs just because I like the result. I get a little sparkle or sizzle without adding EQ. It doesn't always make it on to the mix, but I almost always try it.
@@threeforcegaming1769 I appreciate your response. You know, you might not be off the mark by mentioning speakers being able to reproduce highs pretty well, regardless. I was working on a mix that had a piano and that’s when examples 1 & 2 came to mind. I guess I’ll stick with 2 and, most importantly, that it sounds good to the ears 🙏🏽
I've used a little mid side in mixes, but not much, basically because it sounded, 'odd', when I used it with EQ. But, I got some reasonbale results if I wound it back. In truth, that just shows up my lack of sophisticated ears. I watch this channel, to get better, but sometimes, I feel I'm still in the botton class, when I see the depths you go into on many topics. I guess I'll get better by osmosis, so keep em coming
Thank you very much for this video. You answer for my question...:) I aware to use mid-side processing in mixing. I always have a mess in mixes after this.
Bravo...still the best in explaining clearly. It would be nice also to give some fast paradigms in a real situation
Another useful recall to critic listening, thanks. I had to get into the mid-side processing when I tried to treat L and R through linked outboard compressors. Even if linked and knobs-aligned, there's no way to make them work exactly the same way. In L-R you can hear them because they move the sound direction. But if you work on a stereo bus splitting in M-S these little differences become more negligible and you virtually have one big stereo compressor. This is not M-S processing, maybe... L-R cheating?
First, usually you want a stereo compressor to work on your two bus, that's exactly why bus compressors are all stereo as opposed two mono. Second, if you switch to MS because you can't match LR stereo you're still compressing MS and not stereo which changes dramatically. But if you got nothing else, it's fairly easy to match LR with two mono, run sine waves, the run a digital meter after, you can get 1/10th if a decibel which is better than some stereo compressors.
The shirt is OG bro 😊
How I do it:
Put ozone eq as my last plugin on master and check mid and side info of the reference then I check my mix and try to get as close as I can, reverb tails, delays, what sounds in the middle what on sides and when I solo side info it should be balanced and clean and nice. So I play only sides of my mix and if something jumps out I find that sound or reverb send or delay and do some cuts only on side signal of that sound until I get it right for my ears. It's more like some tonal balance. I don't know it's right or wrong, I think it works)
You'd be better off using it to monitor and then adjust single tracks instead but eh whatever works for ya
@@mixbustv yep I will try it
... Thanx for your videos, I find a lot of answers here on your channel)
I never really used M/S, but now I am curious to its artefacts!
hey dave,nice video..btw,pls make video abaout Phase Cancelling,Phase Flip/invert..thanks before
I've found only one nice sounding m/s eq plugin and still I use it gently - it's a Bettermaker 232D.
It sounds great on groups or stereo effects (if needed) and I use m/s mode as an creative effect, not a problem-fixer.
absolutely love the bettermaker 232D🔥🔥🔥
Excellent explanations, as always! 👍
Fantastic content.
I watched your 2 videos on cutting the low ends sides and this one.
Cool, but not imagery enough for me. lol. I would have liked to hear the effect (on transients or phasing) of this mid-side treatment and therefore its bad effect on an instrument to understand more precisely which frequencies are not good at separating.
Well as a beginner, I tried to cut the low ends sides with Fab Filter and even with a brickwall it doesn't work. (I opened a second fab filter EQ afterwards and to tell the truth there is a small drop in dB but not enough to cut the low ends). So if there is anyone who manages to do this BS: congratulations to them! Lol!😄
Thank you so much, from Congo...
I find it useful to bring some guitars up with the mid/side adjustments....
I was hoping you would do this one day! Thanks man 💪💪
I love your channel!
Amazing explanation fantastic video
So I'm moving towards not ever using the mid side processing because I don't understand it anyway but I have put it in just to see what it sounds like and I never liked it of course I'm green as hell lol getting my source material ready for the re release. Thanks big Dave. I don't know how to use it anyway lol
Refreshing to see someone explaining what MS really is, it's a terribly misleading name. I've tried MS so many times and almost never stuck with it for a final mix. if for some reason I desperately need something to sound w i d e I'll buss a couple of sacrificial tracks, say a pair of secondary guitar parts, and widen that leaving everything else playing naturally with the centre line; but mostly I think music (I work basically in rock) just sounds better when it's allowed to be what it is and not treated like some sort of intricate aural jigsaw puzzle. 🤘
I added some m/s on a new dnb track and I'm about to remove it on a few elements when I get home from work. It took away from the life and richness on a couple sounds.
Music is an art, if it's sounds good then it's good
Music is not JUST an art. And surely mixing is at least 50% science. Unless you're making music only you're gonna hear, if it only sounds good to you then no, it doesn't.
Love this channel. Sei il numero uno 😉
🤘🙏
Dropping this blurb before the video drops.
Trying a new technique on everything, including elements you wouldn't think to use it on, is a good way to really learn what that certain technique or process does constructively or destructively.
Some people think this is also how you should mix, and it emphasizes the destructive part hahahahha.
I do dense symphonic death metal with my own band and mid-side can help keep room for vocals with F6 on the orchestral bus. Or I'll use Center to cut all the mid out of an element that's primarily ambient and just filling space so it doesn't fill, like, the wrong space, or if I've got some big war drums or low concert toms and bass drums going, I might refocus the low end back towards the middle so it's not throwing the stereo feeling off balance (since I keep my samples panned after I print them so it still feels like everyone's seated like in a real orchestra).
That's about it that I've found works for me. I don't really understand the mid-side craze so I'm excited to see what this video has to say.
Thank you for the feedback, watching this video will most definitely give you a different perspective and make you more careful on the techniques you already use
@@mixbustv Follow-up: YES. This is great. I love the equation section. The explanation on the the guitar/vocal relationship is exactly why I never use mid-side stuff on 2-bus. For clarification, I was referring that I sidechain my vocals to specific, smaller bands F6 in mid-mode on my orchestral bus since the vocal is far more important (which I already keep my orchestral percussion separate, so the transient issue isn't as big of a problem as it could be). And my example with Center is EXTREMELY specific and I never use it on very forward elements.
Great video, and it gives actual analysis to why I already use mid-side extremely sparingly and, like you said, makes me even more careful. Great video, as always, thank you so much!
M/S came up out of old Radio Station Times. The only reason was to keep broadcasting flexible. So in order to have a signal you can broadcast as far as possible, the mono signal is used and as the signal quality was better the side signal was additionally added by the radio receiver. According to this more and more studio productions tried to follow the M/S Approach. To be honest, I see only a technical, historical reason, M/S was never invented to improve sound quality, so I would say as we are not really more relying on it, we could just forget about it LOL
Eek. If you get rid of mid and side signals, you have dual mono. It's what makes stereo, stereophonic.
David, M/S compression creates similar problems. For example compressing MID channel also compresses SIDE ect. But what about using Weiss DS1 MK3 while mastering and applying M/S, for example compressing or/and expanding side image only.
I've seen you using Weiss this way many times.
Thank you.
Ps. Can you also make a video explaining M/S encoding and how it works and affects the signal? Thank you for the answer
Compression doesn't use filters, hence it doesn't cause any phase shift/transient smearing
@@mixbustv yes. But in the article you presented it says:
"If something exists in the far left channel, like an electric guitar, it will exist in the M and the S when put into a Mid/Side matrix. So when you apply Mid/Side compression to something like an entire stereo mix, the same element will receive different compression treatments, and you’ll wind up with a singular sound being pulled and pushed in different directions by two different compressors".
Just I was wondering as I've seen you using Weiss in M/S many times while mastering.
Thank you
But that's not necessarily a problem. Think how many times we use multiple compressors on the same element, wether is a mix or a vocal or anything else. The point is simple and it goes for anything like this: be aware of the science behind a process and know what to look/listen for (potential drawbacks) and then simply use your ears once you KNOW what could happen. (as opposed to the "there are no rules bro, just use your ears" crowd)
Learned something here. Thanks.
Sharp shirt 👏🏻
In the past mid side wasn't a thing, it got created as a tool for certain needs, so we should use it only for those, and then, when possible, as a creative tool, but not more than that I think
Thanks for the video, A quick question, my mix is muddy at the low end. I saw tutorials that suggested high pass EQ on the sides. I did it, and I have the impression that the mix looses widerness and depth. Yes it cuts some muddiness, but the end result is more flat and shallow.
How can I make more space in my mix, to remove this
David let me know if i heard you wrong but i dont think mid side is sum difference, the way i think i heard you say it - mono stereo is sum difference. The mid is not mono, it still has non summed information thats slightly (but not 100%) out of phase, or within 60 degrees center. Its only when you mono that you truly "sum" the signal, with most of the mids remaining and the sides completely canceling. Sides just mean signal thats 100% out of phase, while stereo is anything that thats out of phase (mids included). Mid side is not the same as mono stereo...
For all intents and purposes is the same thing, see every piece of gear double labeled one and the other
I hate M/S EQing. I can never get anything sounding right with it. It just over-complicates things. But hey , I'm not a pro. So anyone who can use it and get good results....Hats off to you.
Ah interesting one… I need some info on this. Thank you!!!
0:58 badass hahaha
i slept on this dude 👏
you so right !!!!!!!!!
Thanks👌
In true mid-side recording you use a figure 8 pattern mic for the sides and a separate cardioid mic for the mono mid channel… and that way the sides can be perfectly phase inverted and the mono channel is a different character as its a different placement and type of microphone …. So as you say, using the same input for both sides and mid inside a daw is actually not compliant with mid-side recording, as the mid needs to be a different capture source for it to work in the final stereo mix as otherwise the final stereo mix will have phase cancellation between the side and mid from using the same source for all 3 channels, and not a totally different capture source for the mid, as this technique was designed for. Am i understanding this correct?
Yes and no. MS recording is different than MS encoding/decoding for processing as this can be done from a stereo track, recording, etc.. Because of that, it's the nature of this particular type of processing - MS eq in particular - to have some drawbacks, not perfect separation etc.. Hence the video.
Is it fair to say that if you tune and equalize your tracks appropriately, along with your master, there technically is no need to mid-side EQ?
Yep
@@mixbustv Thank you for your input, and of course for all of your content!
Thank you. Very Informative
Thanks for another great video. I totally agree that M/S on regular EQ messes with the transients ect but switching to Linear Phase solves that problem in both mixing and mastering. I use M/S while mastering quite often (same in mixing with dealing with stereo tracks to for example create pocket for vocals) but first use LP mode and only make subtle changes like 0.1 to 0.5 db max and mostly do it in higher frequencies where pre-ringing is hardly present.
What is your opnion about that?
Thank you
Sorry but it doesn't. What I described in this video happens because of the encoding, not because of the type of eq. Linear phase eq won't solve it, it will add instead, pre-ringing. Sure you won't have the phase shift and when you would use MS regardless, sometimes can sound better then regular eq, but just as sometimes LP can sound better than regular eq when NOT using MS, make sense? The two only related (just like everything else in audio) but LP won't solve this. Now in your case, if you do adjustments within 0.5db I would lean towards using regular eq instead because the potential artifacts with such small changes are minimal to insignificant (probably) and an LP would maybe add additional smearing, just because of the nature of the processing, for no reason.
@@mixbustv I've experienced smearing of transients from LP mid/side processing in a mastering session. Is pre-ringing what is causing that smearing? I can't hear any audible pre-ringing but I notice as I cut rumble from the sides (sub 50Hz) the kick and snare lost attack. Is this caused by the pre-ringing? Would make sense intuitively as pre-ringing is sound ahead of the initial attack, no?
just got an SSL fusion and some other hardware that use mid-side processing. should be an interesting video.
So, should we boost the sides on the high end to widen? Sounds like we shouldn't. So then what, don't worry about widening the mix? Is this technique more suitable to individual instrument tracks or perhaps group bus?
Generally speaking yes, I (and many others) prefer to take care of my width in mixing, so on the single elements, but I've never said don't use MS eq or wideners. What I'm saying is be aware that our brain is tricked, just like the top boost, when you first apply such process because that's just how our brain works and that first impression often make you overlook other artifacts that it might cause. So knowing what to listen for and experience will then tell you how and when everything is appropriated.
I always love and use MS processing plugins or at least the ones that have this feature :) But I use themn very carefully and always ( without exception ) check in Mono in each step. I just love to have the control under my hand LOL.
Essentially everything I do is stereo based on the styles of music I work with, with the occasional mono mix for some live sounding jazz stuff. I can honestly say that mid-side is less than 10% of my workflow.
I noticed mid side processing while listening to a mix on headphones compared to using monitors. The Mid (bassline) sounds like it sticks out more while listening to on headphones, but then on stereo speakers the mid part (bassline) appears to be "hidden" in the mix.
One of the biggest differences between monitoring on HP vs monitors is the stereo field, usually pretty screwed up in HP because of both the isolation and the close distance between your ear drums and the drivers