I am nowhere near an "expert" with Dolby Atmos, but one thing I feel like most people should consider is the True Peak you had mentioned in the video. Depending on your fold-down settings will determine your True Peak, since the loudness reading is based off of a 5.1 render. Most people should ALSO check True Peak for binaural, which (to me) is more important than Average LUFs. I don't know why UMG and Warner are obsessed with an average loudness, instead of True Peak and Range (The difference in loudness between different parts of the song). Nobody mixing in Stereo to an averaged integrated loudness, but rather pushing the limits into limiters and bus compression, etc. In my opinion, as long as you aren't pushing into the binaural limiter, you should be good for the most part in terms of getting your song "loud". Great video either way!!
FYI for those that have updated PT or the Renderer - using 129 no longer works. You have to sacrifice obj buss 128 to use it now. Not sure why this is, but the recent update to PT broke using 129
Much appreciate the value you provide! So thank your for that first of all! Could you do a video on using Dolby Atmos in Logic as well? That would be very great and helpful 🙏🏽 Saying thank you and hello from Germany 🙋🏽♂️
When playing your MP4 file on your iPhone make sure to play it using your iPhones built in Files App. Also, even if you’re mixing with headphones only please make sure to turn Speaker Outputs ON so that you can see the meters for all of the channels, that way you keep an eye on those meters and know that you’re not distorting your surround and height channels. Those channels are not as audible or perceived in headphones.
What a great video, thanks so much for doing this. What really struck me was how Dolby Atmos is unbelievably complicated from a mixing point of view. Okay, I'm not familiar with Pro Tools so some of it may simply be to do with that, but oh my word it adds a layer (or layers) of complexity to the mixing process. Again, being fair, some of this is a one time setup thing but you can't hide from the "Surround Sound on Steroids" nature of Dolby Atmos with all the complexity that involves. My own personal view is that this is not going to be adopted. I think the huge extra cost in production and in playback systems (which can take advantage of it) is not going to make this any more than a niche market. And being honest, I don't think it makes listening to music a tangibly better experience in the way that stereo sounds simply better than mono. It's different, but not necessarily better. In fact, I think many people will consider it worse. So this is definitely pushing something that consumers don't need and don't really want. Although there's a huge amount of effort being put into convincing people otherwise. Which may work. Crystal ball gazing to one side though, I have to say I just desperately hope that this doesn't become the new musical standard. From a personal point of view it would involve a huge investment in time and money. But from a "world of music" point of view it makes the barriers to entry so much higher and that will inevitably squash creativity.
My absolute pleasure; thanks for watching; I look at it like this; the same hurdles would have been jumped from mono-playback to stereo (Literally doubling the cost for everything from production down to the consumer end) Dolby atmos I think is here to stay and here's why; in 2021 58 million airpods were sold; all new airpods have spatial audio enabled; and that's on default in apple music; Labels are getting pumped with money to update their back-catalogues for this listening experience; so it will naturally integrate itself on the user end whether people want it to or not; And Q1 & Q2 sales for 2023 are at 34.6 million sales;
@@panorama_mastering Yes, there's no doubt that having Apple pushing something is reason to think that Atmos is going to penetrate the market to some degree. But I'm still really struggling to find a groundswell of "punters" (i.e. consumers) who will be demanding Atmos going forward. I've found people who are amazed by the technology and I've found people who say they like it as a listening experience but it just doesn't "feel" like the listening experience is universally thought of as better. And I put "feel" in quotes because I'm just going on a sample size of people who I talk to. I've done no wider research so this is purely anecdotal and I'm not going to dress it up as anything more than that. I guess the real question is whether this is like 3D TV (huge push but nobody really wanted it so it's died) or Stereo (which was just clearly better in every way so consumers demanded it). I personally hope it's the former for the reasons I've already stated but I guess it's wait and see. The only thing I feel certain about is that Atmos isn't a done deal and only time will tell. But I still am very grateful for the video and the work you've put in. Having it all laid out was incredibly useful, if a little scary.
Super informative, thanks for all this content! Would be amazing to see your set-up in more details (hardware and stuff). Also, what has been your experience transitioning from stereo to atmos? Cheers
i'm really keen to learn a new technique just because greedy people on apple's board of directors just decided to take on spotify and they can't think of a better differentiator to market to than a wider stereo field, which 99% of end users neither need nor appreciate. thank you anyway for your tutorial brother
Got it: 1. in the Renderer CMD-N create new master 2. Set in/out points in the Renderer 3. Arm REC in the Renderer, 4. Set curso in the DAW before IN point and press PLAY in the DAW = the Renderer prints the Master. When done: in the Renderer, CMD-E (export re-renders) and/or CMD-SHF-N (export MP4 with DD+ in it) 🌬
Cubase has one of the tightest integrations with Dolby atmos and the renderer is baked in, if you get nuendo you’ve go no limit to the number of beds or objects you can have
@@panorama_mastering sorry have to correct myself here, the number of objects in both cubase and nuendo are 118 and the number of beds in nuendo is 64. As far as practicality I can’t imagine anyone using any more than that so for practical purposes it’s effectively unlimited but there is a specified amount If you go to Strindberg/nuendo/comparison/ post production you’ll see more into the features related Dolby atmos. Also I have to say you’ve really sparked my passion for a more technical and I’m depth approach to mixing and mastering, I found your channel by searching for deeper more scientific videos related as I found them lacking, as I learned more and more I started to see how much crap there is out there so I’ve stopped watching a lot of the other content out there but yours inspired me to go through patents, research papers, understanding every tool I use inside and out, it’s really spend up my work and I’m just finding more and more joy from audio with everything I learn. Finally, if you haven’t already you should really check out “the handbook for sound engineers” it’s probably the most comprehensive documentation related to the technical side of audio that I’ve come across. You can find a pdf online fairly easily or get the newest physical version it’s roughly 1800 pages long and every pages is extremely packed with information.
@@nezhikoff when I do any work in atmos these days I tend to be in pro tools since they added the internal renderer. I will say that cubase had atmos early on but it hasn’t been developed any further which is unfortunate
Doing the Lords work my friend! When I read "so you...." even with my non native English I knew what follows :-) I must say that Atmos has not convinced me . I have also high doubts it will stay. Same as surround music a few years back or "super audio" music etc etc. Somehow a simple but good Stereo setup is a already almost the pinnacle of sound reproduction. Multiple speakers is something very few people will actually do resulting in a very niche product and market. I mean its crazy I know but people have moved backwards from using stereo to Bluetooth speakers somewhere in the corner of a room. Who exactly is going to install multiple speakers and where? I really don't believe it. Same goes for headphones. I don't have statistics but I think Headphone audiophiles are a small percentage of the population also. Maybe it will be cool in the Cinemas. Of course I might be wrong, who knows. Thanks for your constant work and quality content. Cheers !
It's less about the amount of speakers someone has; but more-so the integration of encoding and decoding the information from the creation to consumer end;
@@panorama_mastering "It's less about the amount of speakers" but that's what I don't get. I thought the point of it all is to create an "even deeper-immersive" experience than stereo can offer and all of this based on more speakers or why are there 7+2+2 (or how much it is ) the standard? So I was asking my self , why all the trouble if people most likely won't follow with the proper setup out of sheer convenience. All I see around me is that ,,Yes we could create an exciting new listening experience but I also feel like in some areas we as a society are returning to the caveman boogie era somehow. But it may also be that I simply cant fully wrap my head around the whole thing and am confused in which case what I say does not count. Its just a thought. Am not ready to fight over it yet :-)
this makes me curious how often are you actually doing Atmos masters/mixes? did you notice an increase in requests since apple announced they will give better cuts and visibility on Apple music?
Can you show me where Apple music officially announced this? I've done so many stereo mixes getting playlisting on official apple playlists that ARE NOT in dolby atmos...
@@panorama_mastering i'm not sure if they officially announced it but i've read articles stating they reached out to label partners and offered better revenue share and probably as an incentive to get the Atmos catalogue growing consistently - i doubt that will affect playlists tho. i think TH-cam is wonky with links, if you search "Apple Music to pay artists up to 10% higher royalties for music available in Spatial Audio" you'll find it :)
I’m having issues getting it to work in Fl. It won’t let me pick core audio/ proper sound drivers. It only shows ASIO and fl sound driver. Please lmk if you have any ideas I’m at a stand still.🙏🏻
Hey Nicholas, Thank you for the great and insighful video! What do you usually set your binaural redermode settings to in the plugin and how do you usually utilise those settings within your mix? e.g. do you usually set certain objects to a certain distance?
Very nice tutorial for a quick routing. I use a Macbook Pro Mac Os 12.6 with Pro Tools Studio 2022.10.0 and the Dolby Atmos 5.0.0_272-501207d3. Unfortunately, I still don't get any signal with the signal generator to the renderer. Does anyone have similar experiences?
It's not "officially" supported but follow the same layout and process I showed for ableton live; using the dolby atmos panner to communicate metadata information to the renderer
I still don't get the point of atmos - the number of listeners with the equipment or acces to it or that even go to venues where it would be a thing that was used for music is aboslutely tiny. 5.1 was and still is completely niche for music listening
Also atmos, multi-channel, spatial audio only took off for movies & gaming. For music, it's been a commercial failure started since Quadraphonic in the 70's.
But now the times have changed, Apple is pushing hard to get atmos mixes submitted along stereo masters on Apple Music, the main streaming platforms propose atmos streams, big studios are investing a lot of money on atmos rigs, and even on the consumer side things are easy now with more and more atmos-compatible devices getting more affordable.
@@sebguyader I'll give more time but as of now it's mostly only supported by Apple's airpod or airpod max. And playing atmos with "stereo" headphones misses the main point of atmos (unless the mix decodes or translates well to stereo). Also most of atmos mixes albums are only available from major labels.
@@gx1tar1er When the also mix is well done, even the binaural render on headphones gives a nicer separation of the elements, even if you don't get the full 3d immersion. And as a side effect, the -18 LKFS loudness limit allows for better dynamics and less compression. But of course, some Atmos mixed sound worse than the stereo mix when they are not done properly. Besides the Apple ecosystem, sound bars and smart speakers have started to provide some immersive experience. It's only the beginning and I think there's more to come. But of course I could be wrong.
@@sebguyader that -18luf. Believe me they'll find the way to make it louder. Just like with the invention of CD in the 80's along with digital brickwall limiter (90's is when it kicked off) when they went from analog (vinyl, tape) to digital. Loudness war never ends & keep going on when you look at today's music loudness (especially from major labels & even underground indie artists). Also loudness war has existed way before CD ever existed (like the 1940's with Jukebox atleast) but due to a limitation of analog physical media, they couldn't make it louder.
If this is the concise breakdown omg this will be a headache. I'll pass😡😡😡 The will not bully me into moving to this foolishness.... totally understand for milm and gaming work totally unnecessary for music.
![[TH]FFWS SEA 2024 Fall - Knockout Stage Day 5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/N2tl9xkQyyU/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you! Not all heroes wear puma
this comment must be pinned 🤣
Love the puma!
I am nowhere near an "expert" with Dolby Atmos, but one thing I feel like most people should consider is the True Peak you had mentioned in the video. Depending on your fold-down settings will determine your True Peak, since the loudness reading is based off of a 5.1 render. Most people should ALSO check True Peak for binaural, which (to me) is more important than Average LUFs. I don't know why UMG and Warner are obsessed with an average loudness, instead of True Peak and Range (The difference in loudness between different parts of the song). Nobody mixing in Stereo to an averaged integrated loudness, but rather pushing the limits into limiters and bus compression, etc. In my opinion, as long as you aren't pushing into the binaural limiter, you should be good for the most part in terms of getting your song "loud". Great video either way!!
Far out! this is the most comprehensive, no fluff tute on Dolby I’ve seen so far. Thanks so so so much
Thanks man ! Appreciate the love!
Such a valuable resource! Quick, concise, and direct. One stop shop
Thanks mate!
I use studio one 6 and Dolby is integrated. This video was really helpful
FYI for those that have updated PT or the Renderer - using 129 no longer works. You have to sacrifice obj buss 128 to use it now. Not sure why this is, but the recent update to PT broke using 129
Amazing! Thanks for flagging this!
Best video I’ve seen for this subject. Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
Much appreciate the value you provide! So thank your for that first of all!
Could you do a video on using Dolby Atmos in Logic as well? That would be very great and helpful 🙏🏽
Saying thank you and hello from Germany 🙋🏽♂️
No worries; possibly! I'll have a look into it ! :)
When playing your MP4 file on your iPhone make sure to play it using your iPhones built in Files App. Also, even if you’re mixing with headphones only please make sure to turn Speaker Outputs ON so that you can see the meters for all of the channels, that way you keep an eye on those meters and know that you’re not distorting your surround and height channels. Those channels are not as audible or perceived in headphones.
Bang on!
THIS IS A LIFE SAVER!
THANKS, A LOT
You're welcome!
Can't thank you enough for this video! Trying to figure out how to audition the Apple spatial on the AirPod Max's has been a pain.
No worries; you're welcome!
🤯awesome man!
Thanks mate!
What a great video, thanks so much for doing this.
What really struck me was how Dolby Atmos is unbelievably complicated from a mixing point of view. Okay, I'm not familiar with Pro Tools so some of it may simply be to do with that, but oh my word it adds a layer (or layers) of complexity to the mixing process. Again, being fair, some of this is a one time setup thing but you can't hide from the "Surround Sound on Steroids" nature of Dolby Atmos with all the complexity that involves.
My own personal view is that this is not going to be adopted. I think the huge extra cost in production and in playback systems (which can take advantage of it) is not going to make this any more than a niche market. And being honest, I don't think it makes listening to music a tangibly better experience in the way that stereo sounds simply better than mono. It's different, but not necessarily better. In fact, I think many people will consider it worse. So this is definitely pushing something that consumers don't need and don't really want. Although there's a huge amount of effort being put into convincing people otherwise. Which may work.
Crystal ball gazing to one side though, I have to say I just desperately hope that this doesn't become the new musical standard. From a personal point of view it would involve a huge investment in time and money. But from a "world of music" point of view it makes the barriers to entry so much higher and that will inevitably squash creativity.
My absolute pleasure; thanks for watching;
I look at it like this; the same hurdles would have been jumped from mono-playback to stereo (Literally doubling the cost for everything from production down to the consumer end)
Dolby atmos I think is here to stay and here's why; in 2021 58 million airpods were sold; all new airpods have spatial audio enabled; and that's on default in apple music;
Labels are getting pumped with money to update their back-catalogues for this listening experience; so it will naturally integrate itself on the user end whether people want it to or not;
And Q1 & Q2 sales for 2023 are at 34.6 million sales;
@@panorama_mastering Yes, there's no doubt that having Apple pushing something is reason to think that Atmos is going to penetrate the market to some degree. But I'm still really struggling to find a groundswell of "punters" (i.e. consumers) who will be demanding Atmos going forward. I've found people who are amazed by the technology and I've found people who say they like it as a listening experience but it just doesn't "feel" like the listening experience is universally thought of as better.
And I put "feel" in quotes because I'm just going on a sample size of people who I talk to. I've done no wider research so this is purely anecdotal and I'm not going to dress it up as anything more than that.
I guess the real question is whether this is like 3D TV (huge push but nobody really wanted it so it's died) or Stereo (which was just clearly better in every way so consumers demanded it). I personally hope it's the former for the reasons I've already stated but I guess it's wait and see.
The only thing I feel certain about is that Atmos isn't a done deal and only time will tell.
But I still am very grateful for the video and the work you've put in. Having it all laid out was incredibly useful, if a little scary.
Super informative, thanks for all this content! Would be amazing to see your set-up in more details (hardware and stuff). Also, what has been your experience transitioning from stereo to atmos? Cheers
Will be setting up a new atmos space towards end of year that will warrant a video like that;
@@panorama_mastering awesome man, can’t wait to see it! Keep up the great work, your videos are really helping me out 🙏🏻
i'm really keen to learn a new technique just because greedy people on apple's board of directors just decided to take on spotify and they can't think of a better differentiator to market to than a wider stereo field, which 99% of end users neither need nor appreciate. thank you anyway for your tutorial brother
Great tutorial ! I am missing how to export the atmos wav(s) from Ableton Live? thanks!
Got it: 1. in the Renderer CMD-N create new master 2. Set in/out points in the Renderer 3. Arm REC in the Renderer, 4. Set curso in the DAW before IN point and press PLAY in the DAW = the Renderer prints the Master. When done: in the Renderer, CMD-E (export re-renders) and/or CMD-SHF-N (export MP4 with DD+ in it) 🌬
Cubase has one of the tightest integrations with Dolby atmos and the renderer is baked in, if you get nuendo you’ve go no limit to the number of beds or objects you can have
Oh! I was not aware that it could go unlimited on objects! Wow!
@@panorama_mastering sorry have to correct myself here, the number of objects in both cubase and nuendo are 118 and the number of beds in nuendo is 64. As far as practicality I can’t imagine anyone using any more than that so for practical purposes it’s effectively unlimited but there is a specified amount
If you go to Strindberg/nuendo/comparison/ post production you’ll see more into the features related Dolby atmos.
Also I have to say you’ve really sparked my passion for a more technical and I’m depth approach to mixing and mastering, I found your channel by searching for deeper more scientific videos related as I found them lacking, as I learned more and more I started to see how much crap there is out there so I’ve stopped watching a lot of the other content out there but yours inspired me to go through patents, research papers, understanding every tool I use inside and out, it’s really spend up my work and I’m just finding more and more joy from audio with everything I learn.
Finally, if you haven’t already you should really check out “the handbook for sound engineers” it’s probably the most comprehensive documentation related to the technical side of audio that I’ve come across. You can find a pdf online fairly easily or get the newest physical version it’s roughly 1800 pages long and every pages is extremely packed with information.
@@memeswillneverdie good day! have you already started making your mixes in cubase in dolby atm format?
@@nezhikoff when I do any work in atmos these days I tend to be in pro tools since they added the internal renderer. I will say that cubase had atmos early on but it hasn’t been developed any further which is unfortunate
Omg thank u
Doing the Lords work my friend!
When I read "so you...." even with my non native English I knew what follows :-)
I must say that Atmos has not convinced me . I have also high doubts it will stay. Same as surround music a few years back or "super audio" music etc etc.
Somehow a simple but good Stereo setup is a already almost the pinnacle of sound reproduction.
Multiple speakers is something very few people will actually do resulting in a very niche product and market.
I mean its crazy I know but people have moved backwards from using stereo to Bluetooth speakers somewhere in the corner of a room.
Who exactly is going to install multiple speakers and where? I really don't believe it. Same goes for headphones. I don't have statistics but I think Headphone
audiophiles are a small percentage of the population also.
Maybe it will be cool in the Cinemas.
Of course I might be wrong, who knows.
Thanks for your constant work and quality content.
Cheers !
It's less about the amount of speakers someone has; but more-so the integration of encoding and decoding the information from the creation to consumer end;
also as always thanks for the love!
If the format wins, it will win because of headphones and soundbars: the least effective Atmos methods, but they will be the most common.
@@panorama_mastering as always, thanks for the content. What can I say, you are a lovely individual with solid information. What's not to like
@@panorama_mastering
"It's less about the amount of speakers"
but that's what I don't get. I thought the point of it all is to create an "even deeper-immersive" experience than stereo can offer and all of this based on more speakers or why are there 7+2+2 (or how much it is ) the standard? So I was asking my self , why all the trouble if people most likely won't follow with the proper setup out of sheer convenience.
All I see around me is that ,,Yes we could create an exciting new listening experience but I also feel like in some areas we as a society are returning to the caveman boogie era somehow.
But it may also be that I simply cant fully wrap my head around the whole thing and am confused in which case what I say does not count. Its just a thought. Am not ready to fight over it yet :-)
Hey can u make a video on file delivery formats? Do you export on mp3/aac at all?
Possibly; I'll do so after my first dolby atmos mix goes live on the platforms so I have a case study incase anything gets pushed back!
Best video
Thanks for this!
You're welcome!
🐐🐐🐐
Good day can you sent me the link for the dolby Atmos template?
this makes me curious how often are you actually doing Atmos masters/mixes? did you notice an increase in requests since apple announced they will give better cuts and visibility on Apple music?
Can you show me where Apple music officially announced this?
I've done so many stereo mixes getting playlisting on official apple playlists that ARE NOT in dolby atmos...
@@panorama_mastering i'm not sure if they officially announced it but i've read articles stating they reached out to label partners and offered better revenue share and probably as an incentive to get the Atmos catalogue growing consistently - i doubt that will affect playlists tho.
i think TH-cam is wonky with links, if you search "Apple Music to pay artists up to 10% higher royalties for music available in Spatial Audio" you'll find it :)
For someone dabbling testing what speakers headphones would you get for while you're mixing (in real time)?
Could you reword this question?
@@panorama_mastering so badly worded lol. In a home studio what speakers would you use to start practicing?
I’m having issues getting it to work in Fl. It won’t let me pick core audio/ proper sound drivers. It only shows ASIO and fl sound driver. Please lmk if you have any ideas I’m at a stand still.🙏🏻
Nice breakdown. So are you going to continue doing Atmos mixing on headphones, or do you plan on investing in a proper 7.1.2 Atmos monitoring system?
For mean time on headphones; the future; is a surprise ;)
How can i do beds in ableton without rossetta? thanks
Hey Nicholas, Thank you for the great and insighful video! What do you usually set your binaural redermode settings to in the plugin and how do you usually utilise those settings within your mix? e.g. do you usually set certain objects to a certain distance?
Thank you for another awesome video! I think this set up is only available on mac, if I am not mistaken
Oh... the dolby atmos renderer can be used on windows I'm pretty sure of it!
How can i sett my LFE in Ableton?
Not sure; I'll look into it for you!
I don't see the Core Audio when on the Dolby Atmos Renderer. I'm on a Windows 11 PC. Does this matter?
Core Audio is Mac specific
Very nice tutorial for a quick routing. I use a Macbook Pro Mac Os 12.6 with Pro Tools Studio 2022.10.0 and the Dolby Atmos 5.0.0_272-501207d3. Unfortunately, I still don't get any signal with the signal generator to the renderer. Does anyone have similar experiences?
many people are having this issue. Move the LTC output to 128. You will sacrifice one of your objects by using 128 but it's stable.
Any chances of Dolby enabling FL Studio users to mix in Atmos soon?
It's not "officially" supported but follow the same layout and process I showed for ableton live; using the dolby atmos panner to communicate metadata information to the renderer
Where can I findthe preference @ 1:57 ?
Top left (Click dolby atmos renderer drop down menu -> Preferences)
I cant do dolby atmos on reaper well lets say i dont know how and there are no tutorials!
use Dolby Atmos Bridge as I/O then the dolby atmos panner to map the meta-data of the outputs and channels together to the renderer
Fl studio and atmos should work together
where's your speakers? how do that work, your making a tut no setup
This was regarding getting started straight away in binaural (With headphones)
I still don't get the point of atmos - the number of listeners with the equipment or acces to it or that even go to venues where it would be a thing that was used for music is aboslutely tiny. 5.1 was and still is completely niche for music listening
Also atmos, multi-channel, spatial audio only took off for movies & gaming. For music, it's been a commercial failure started since Quadraphonic in the 70's.
But now the times have changed, Apple is pushing hard to get atmos mixes submitted along stereo masters on Apple Music, the main streaming platforms propose atmos streams, big studios are investing a lot of money on atmos rigs, and even on the consumer side things are easy now with more and more atmos-compatible devices getting more affordable.
@@sebguyader I'll give more time but as of now it's mostly only supported by Apple's airpod or airpod max. And playing atmos with "stereo" headphones misses the main point of atmos (unless the mix decodes or translates well to stereo). Also most of atmos mixes albums are only available from major labels.
@@gx1tar1er When the also mix is well done, even the binaural render on headphones gives a nicer separation of the elements, even if you don't get the full 3d immersion. And as a side effect, the -18 LKFS loudness limit allows for better dynamics and less compression.
But of course, some Atmos mixed sound worse than the stereo mix when they are not done properly.
Besides the Apple ecosystem, sound bars and smart speakers have started to provide some immersive experience. It's only the beginning and I think there's more to come. But of course I could be wrong.
@@sebguyader that -18luf. Believe me they'll find the way to make it louder. Just like with the invention of CD in the 80's along with digital brickwall limiter (90's is when it kicked off) when they went from analog (vinyl, tape) to digital. Loudness war never ends & keep going on when you look at today's music loudness (especially from major labels & even underground indie artists). Also loudness war has existed way before CD ever existed (like the 1940's with Jukebox atleast) but due to a limitation of analog physical media, they couldn't make it louder.
If this is the concise breakdown omg this will be a headache. I'll pass😡😡😡 The will not bully me into moving to this foolishness.... totally understand for milm and gaming work totally unnecessary for music.
too complicated and bullshit process